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CNN Live At Daybreak
"Passion" Begins Today
Aired February 25, 2004 - 05:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Who killed Jesus and why? That is the big debate as "The Passion of the Christ" opens today in about 2,800 theaters.
Our Beth Nissen has some interesting answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Should viewers of "The Passion of the Christ" take Mel Gibson's vision as gospel? The work of scores of biblical scholars and historians was summarized in the "Newsweek" magazine cover story, "Who Really Killed Jesus?" by managing editor Jon Meacham, himself a student of biblical history. He's seen the movie twice.
JON MEACHAM, "NEWSWEEK" MANAGING EDITOR: I think the basic means of crucifixion in Gibson's movie is essentially right. This was a terrible way to die.
NISSEN: Only a few of the film's horribly graphic details are in dispute. Gibson shows nails being driven into Christ's palms, which conflicts with archeological findings.
MEACHAM: Most evidence suggests that the nail would go through the wrist, which would obviously -- it would obviously physically keep you on the cross.
NISSEN: Otherwise, Gibson's bloody depiction of Christ's suffering on the cross is in accordance with historical sources on this commonly used form of Roman capital punishment.
MEACHAM: Death by crucifixion was wretched, horrible, violent. It's the reason we have the word excruciating.
NISSEN: The film also accurately portrays the public nature of this form of execution for those found guilty of sedition in Roman occupied Palestine.
MEACHAM: The point of the cross was that it was a public warning to others. You were on that hill, you were on those pieces of wood and the message was if you don't fall in line, this will happen to you.
NISSEN: Gibson's film diverges more from historical and even some biblical sources in its depiction of how Jesus was sentenced to death and by whom.
MEACHAM: His central historical problem was Pilate. That's where he went sort of off the rails, by making Pilate such a good guy.
NISSEN: The film depicts Pontius Pilate as a Roman leader concerned with justice, reluctant to sentence Jesus to death, but persuaded to do so by a Jewish mob and the temple high priests, a portrayal that doesn't square with historical records of Pilate's tyrannical rule.
MEACHAM: One historian describes Pontius Pilate as stubborn, cruel and of inflexible disposition, quite the opposite of the just Roman ruler.
NISSEN: Gibson chose to use the bible as his key source, which for historians is problematic.
MEACHAM: The gospel accounts may contain important spiritual truths, important theological truths, but they are not necessarily documents in which the chronology of events, the nature of events in time can be taken as literally true.
NISSEN: And biblical scholars, even Catholic leaders, fault Gibson for how he's used the gospels, making a composite of the New Testament's four varying accounts of the crucifixion. Gibson, for example, ignores a passage from the Book of John, in which it is the chief priests and temple officers who call for Jesus' crucifixion and instead blends accounts from the other three books that stress the role of the crowd.
MEACHAM: If you take the "let his blood be upon us and upon our children" line from Matthew and put it in the larger crowd scene before Pilate, then you get a sense that the Jewish mob made that cry, as opposed to a certain element of the Jewish society at that time. You could come away from this movie believing that the Jews killed Jesus. That's not what happened.
NISSEN: What did happen? Who did kill Jesus?
MEACHAM: As a matter of history, Pontius Pilate and the Roman Empire killed Jesus. It was Pontius Pilate saying if you think you're the king of the Jews, this is what happens to you, because there's only one king of the Jews and that's Cesar.
NISSEN: Historians and scholars know there will be many who take this film on faith.
MEACHAM: People will go to see this never ending story. This eternally, perennially fascinating story is only going to stop being told when the kingdom of god comes.
NISSEN: And will surely be discussed as to its truths, its details until then.
Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: Now, the actor who plays Jesus in the movie says the movie is not anti-Semitic. Jim Caviezel says the goal was to depict what really happened. And according to him, the movie is about faith, hope, love and forgiveness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM CAVIEZEL, ACTOR WHO PLAYS JESUS IN "THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST": First of all, our Holy Father said tak balo (ph), Slavic for "it is as it was." And it is in the spokesperson for the Holy See has said so. But, and there are many Jews that have seen this film and loved this film. And this is a part of our faith. Christ crucified, this is our faith. It is not meant to offend, even though Christ himself did offend. The people in it cost him his live, but he handed himself over to be -- to die for all of our sins. And this is the most sacred part of our faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: And despite what he just said, the pope has not officially endorsed "The Passion of the Christ." But some Vatican officials have praised it as a faithful reproduction of the gospels.
Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci joins us live from Rome to talk more about this.
And the Vatican has not officially endorsed this movie, has it?
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It has not, at least not officially. We do know, as you mentioned, that Pope John Paul II did have a chance to see the movie a few weeks ago. We are not entirely sure which version of the movie he saw, whether it was an early version or whether it was the final version. But we do know that he did have a chance to see it.
There was some controversy over whether or not the pope did say, as the main actor was suggesting in the interview earlier, that the passion, the crucifixion was as it was -- that in the movie it is as it was then. Vatican officials rejected the pope had said that. But Vatican officials are stressing that it is not the job of the pope to endorse a commercial enterprise, a movie or anything like that.
We do know, however, from many of the Vatican officials who are in touch with the pope who do know, who speak with him often, that the pope does not reject the movie and, indeed, that he does not dislike it. So this is pretty much officially what the Vatican officials are telling us, that they actually are -- very much like the movie itself -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And, Alessio, this is kind of tough for the Vatican because Mel Gibson is not a Roman Catholic and some of what his brand of Catholicism believes isn't what the Vatican supports, right?
VINCI: Well, that is correct. As a matter of fact, Mel Gibson has criticized the Vatican ever since the Second Vatican Council when the Vatican has introduced some reforms in the way, for example, mass has been celebrated around the world, no longer in Latin, but in the local languages. And, indeed, during that Second Vatican Council, the Vatican issued a famous edict where basically it relieves the Jews from the guilt of killing Jesus Christ. And that is why Vatican officials here are telling us that the movie itself cannot be really portrayed as being anti-Semitic, which is one of the greatest criticisms, you know, that has been leveled against the movie.
COSTELLO: I was just wondering the interest in the public in Italy. I mean are they interested in going to see this movie? I know the movie doesn't open there until April.
VINCI: That is correct. I mean we've seen a couple of debates, in the press mainly. But certainly there is not a huge debate here yet about the movie itself. Very few people outside, a few inside the Vatican have had a chance to see the movie itself. So there isn't really a huge debate about this.
I suspect, however, that when the movie opens here, the issue will not be very much as to whether it is Anti-Semitic or not. I think that what the people here will really look upon is whether or not the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was so cruel and so bloody, if you want. I mean the movie, for those who have seen it, it's really very cruel, very graphic. And I think a lot of the people here will question themselves about really if it was exactly like that.
COSTELLO: Alessio Vinci live from Rome this morning.
Thank you.
CNN profiles the man behind the movie, Mel Gibson, in this weekend's "People In The News." Don't miss it. It airs Saturday at 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 25, 2004 - 05:32 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Who killed Jesus and why? That is the big debate as "The Passion of the Christ" opens today in about 2,800 theaters.
Our Beth Nissen has some interesting answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Should viewers of "The Passion of the Christ" take Mel Gibson's vision as gospel? The work of scores of biblical scholars and historians was summarized in the "Newsweek" magazine cover story, "Who Really Killed Jesus?" by managing editor Jon Meacham, himself a student of biblical history. He's seen the movie twice.
JON MEACHAM, "NEWSWEEK" MANAGING EDITOR: I think the basic means of crucifixion in Gibson's movie is essentially right. This was a terrible way to die.
NISSEN: Only a few of the film's horribly graphic details are in dispute. Gibson shows nails being driven into Christ's palms, which conflicts with archeological findings.
MEACHAM: Most evidence suggests that the nail would go through the wrist, which would obviously -- it would obviously physically keep you on the cross.
NISSEN: Otherwise, Gibson's bloody depiction of Christ's suffering on the cross is in accordance with historical sources on this commonly used form of Roman capital punishment.
MEACHAM: Death by crucifixion was wretched, horrible, violent. It's the reason we have the word excruciating.
NISSEN: The film also accurately portrays the public nature of this form of execution for those found guilty of sedition in Roman occupied Palestine.
MEACHAM: The point of the cross was that it was a public warning to others. You were on that hill, you were on those pieces of wood and the message was if you don't fall in line, this will happen to you.
NISSEN: Gibson's film diverges more from historical and even some biblical sources in its depiction of how Jesus was sentenced to death and by whom.
MEACHAM: His central historical problem was Pilate. That's where he went sort of off the rails, by making Pilate such a good guy.
NISSEN: The film depicts Pontius Pilate as a Roman leader concerned with justice, reluctant to sentence Jesus to death, but persuaded to do so by a Jewish mob and the temple high priests, a portrayal that doesn't square with historical records of Pilate's tyrannical rule.
MEACHAM: One historian describes Pontius Pilate as stubborn, cruel and of inflexible disposition, quite the opposite of the just Roman ruler.
NISSEN: Gibson chose to use the bible as his key source, which for historians is problematic.
MEACHAM: The gospel accounts may contain important spiritual truths, important theological truths, but they are not necessarily documents in which the chronology of events, the nature of events in time can be taken as literally true.
NISSEN: And biblical scholars, even Catholic leaders, fault Gibson for how he's used the gospels, making a composite of the New Testament's four varying accounts of the crucifixion. Gibson, for example, ignores a passage from the Book of John, in which it is the chief priests and temple officers who call for Jesus' crucifixion and instead blends accounts from the other three books that stress the role of the crowd.
MEACHAM: If you take the "let his blood be upon us and upon our children" line from Matthew and put it in the larger crowd scene before Pilate, then you get a sense that the Jewish mob made that cry, as opposed to a certain element of the Jewish society at that time. You could come away from this movie believing that the Jews killed Jesus. That's not what happened.
NISSEN: What did happen? Who did kill Jesus?
MEACHAM: As a matter of history, Pontius Pilate and the Roman Empire killed Jesus. It was Pontius Pilate saying if you think you're the king of the Jews, this is what happens to you, because there's only one king of the Jews and that's Cesar.
NISSEN: Historians and scholars know there will be many who take this film on faith.
MEACHAM: People will go to see this never ending story. This eternally, perennially fascinating story is only going to stop being told when the kingdom of god comes.
NISSEN: And will surely be discussed as to its truths, its details until then.
Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: Now, the actor who plays Jesus in the movie says the movie is not anti-Semitic. Jim Caviezel says the goal was to depict what really happened. And according to him, the movie is about faith, hope, love and forgiveness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM CAVIEZEL, ACTOR WHO PLAYS JESUS IN "THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST": First of all, our Holy Father said tak balo (ph), Slavic for "it is as it was." And it is in the spokesperson for the Holy See has said so. But, and there are many Jews that have seen this film and loved this film. And this is a part of our faith. Christ crucified, this is our faith. It is not meant to offend, even though Christ himself did offend. The people in it cost him his live, but he handed himself over to be -- to die for all of our sins. And this is the most sacred part of our faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSTELLO: And despite what he just said, the pope has not officially endorsed "The Passion of the Christ." But some Vatican officials have praised it as a faithful reproduction of the gospels.
Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci joins us live from Rome to talk more about this.
And the Vatican has not officially endorsed this movie, has it?
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It has not, at least not officially. We do know, as you mentioned, that Pope John Paul II did have a chance to see the movie a few weeks ago. We are not entirely sure which version of the movie he saw, whether it was an early version or whether it was the final version. But we do know that he did have a chance to see it.
There was some controversy over whether or not the pope did say, as the main actor was suggesting in the interview earlier, that the passion, the crucifixion was as it was -- that in the movie it is as it was then. Vatican officials rejected the pope had said that. But Vatican officials are stressing that it is not the job of the pope to endorse a commercial enterprise, a movie or anything like that.
We do know, however, from many of the Vatican officials who are in touch with the pope who do know, who speak with him often, that the pope does not reject the movie and, indeed, that he does not dislike it. So this is pretty much officially what the Vatican officials are telling us, that they actually are -- very much like the movie itself -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And, Alessio, this is kind of tough for the Vatican because Mel Gibson is not a Roman Catholic and some of what his brand of Catholicism believes isn't what the Vatican supports, right?
VINCI: Well, that is correct. As a matter of fact, Mel Gibson has criticized the Vatican ever since the Second Vatican Council when the Vatican has introduced some reforms in the way, for example, mass has been celebrated around the world, no longer in Latin, but in the local languages. And, indeed, during that Second Vatican Council, the Vatican issued a famous edict where basically it relieves the Jews from the guilt of killing Jesus Christ. And that is why Vatican officials here are telling us that the movie itself cannot be really portrayed as being anti-Semitic, which is one of the greatest criticisms, you know, that has been leveled against the movie.
COSTELLO: I was just wondering the interest in the public in Italy. I mean are they interested in going to see this movie? I know the movie doesn't open there until April.
VINCI: That is correct. I mean we've seen a couple of debates, in the press mainly. But certainly there is not a huge debate here yet about the movie itself. Very few people outside, a few inside the Vatican have had a chance to see the movie itself. So there isn't really a huge debate about this.
I suspect, however, that when the movie opens here, the issue will not be very much as to whether it is Anti-Semitic or not. I think that what the people here will really look upon is whether or not the crucifixion of Jesus Christ was so cruel and so bloody, if you want. I mean the movie, for those who have seen it, it's really very cruel, very graphic. And I think a lot of the people here will question themselves about really if it was exactly like that.
COSTELLO: Alessio Vinci live from Rome this morning.
Thank you.
CNN profiles the man behind the movie, Mel Gibson, in this weekend's "People In The News." Don't miss it. It airs Saturday at 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
