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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Will U.S. Military Intervene in Haiti?; Virginia Wins Right to Exclude Illegal Aliens From Colleges
Aired February 27, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: 2,000 Marines on standby to go to Haiti, rebels closing in on the capital, Port-au-Prince; 20,000 Americans in Haiti may be at risk.
In "Broken Borders," a dramatic court victory for the rights of U.S. citizens and legal residents. Virginia has the right to exclude illegal aliens from its colleges and universities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a process to come to this country legally, whether it's a student visa or otherwise.
DOBBS: "Failing Grades," our schools in crisis. Half of all teachers quit the profession within five years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the nation telling teachers, that you're not worth it?
DOBBS: Tonight, my guest is New York City Schools Chancellor Joel Klein.
And Mel Gibson says "The Passion" of the Christ is about tolerance. Film critic David Denby says it's one of the cruelest movies in history. David Denby is our guest.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, February 27. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, President Bush is considering whether to send more than 2,000 Marines to Haiti. The Pentagon said the Marines and three amphibious assault ships could be off the coast of Haiti within days if the president gives the order. The president may make a decision by tonight. In Haiti today, rebels captured the third largest city. They advanced to within 25 miles of Port-au-Prince.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this is just one of the options under consideration now by the Pentagon, as the situation in Port-au-Prince continues to deteriorate. What they are looking at, one possibility would be dispatching a three-ship task force headed by the USS Saipan, one of the amphibious ready group ships that would carry the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. If the Pentagon is given the go-ahead, the plan would be for these ships to leave Norfolk in the next couple of days, go down to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, pick up the 24th Marine Expeditionary Force and then wait off the coast of Haiti in case they are needed.
Now, what are the possible missions for these ships? Well, they could assist in reinforcing or evacuating the U.S. Embassy in Port-au- Prince. They could assist the Coast Guard in intercepting and repatriating Haitians at sea. Or they could provide safe transport or assist in providing some safe transport for President Aristide, should he decide to leave. U.S. officials continue to hint that they believe Aristide's voluntary departure would be the best way for things to be resolved.
Today, the White House also said that planning is under way for a multinational force to provide security and assist in the delivery of humanitarian aid. But that deployment would be contingent on there being a political settlement first -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie McIntyre, from the Pentagon.
President Bush today said, as Jamie referenced, there must be a political settlement in Haiti before an international force can be sent in.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, more and more, in their private statements, administration officials are saying they see no way out of this political crisis short of President Aristide agreeing to step down and leave power.
President Aristide, of course, has said repeatedly that he has no plans and no intentions of doing so. But administration officials are saying he should look at the situation and, as one senior official put it, make the best decision for the people and the future of Haiti. Again, administration officials are saying this because the political plan they put forward has been rejected by the opposition.
That plan calls for a power-sharing arrangement that keeps President Aristide in power. Mr. Bush was asked about this today in the Oval Office during a meeting with the German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder. He was not as strong as Secretary Powell, but the president did make clear he wants a diplomatic solution and he wants it soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're interested in achieving a political settlement and we're still working to that effect. We're also at the same time planning for a multinational force that would go in and make sure that, if aid needed to be delivered or there needed to be some stability, that it could go, dependent upon a political settlement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, administration officials say President Aristide is getting the blunt message from United States diplomats, from French diplomats and from others involved in this that most people believe it would be the best thing for him to step aside. But, again, Lou, so far, President Aristide says no. The administration says it will continue to make its case.
DOBBS: John, House Speaker Dennis Hastert today reversed himself, saying the 9/11 investigation can have an extra 60 days to complete its work. What is the White House saying about that delayed decision?
KING: The White House is welcoming that decision, Lou. It is a dramatic change, of course, from the speaker and it avoids what the White House and many Republicans believe was a growing political issues. Some families of the victims of 9/11 were planning a news conference tomorrow in New York to criticize the speaker, to demand more time for the commission. That news conference has now been canceled.
That could have been an embarrassing event for the speaker. And even though the president was on the record publicly supporting an extension of the commission, many here at the White House thought it could reflect badly on the president as well. So President Bush himself, we are told, raised this issue with the speaker earlier this week at the White House, made clear that he supported an extension.
The speaker had been saying he did not want this to become a political football, if you will, with the report being issued closer to the election. But under intense political pressure, including from this White House, the speaker did reverse course tonight, Lou. That commission will now get two more into July to complete its work. And the commission spokesman said to the speaker late this afternoon, thank you.
DOBBS: Is there anything, John, in this political presidential election year that will not be a political football? That's a rhetorical question, John.
KING: Not that I can name.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Thank you very much, John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry today said President Bush has no comprehensive strategy for victory in the war on terror. Senator Kerry said radical Islamic terrorism can only be defeated with more stronger intelligence gathering, more effective law enforcement and better relations with our allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't fault George Bush for doing too much in the war on terror. I believe he's done too little. Where he's acted, his doctrine of unilateral preemption has driven away our allies and cost us the support and critical cooperation of other nations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Kerry's remarks came one day after a debate with his rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator John Edwards, Al Sharpton, Congressman Dennis Kucinich.
Today, the political weekly "National Journey" said Senator Kerry's voting record last year made him the most liberal senator of all of 2003.
Joining me now is our CNN political analyst Carlos Watson.
Good to have you with us.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Lou, good to be here.
DOBBS: The idea that we have just discovered that Senator John Kerry is a liberal doesn't seem like much of a surprise.
WATSON: Shocking surprise. Massachusetts. Who knew?
DOBBS: This is, however, remarkable, in that he is more liberal by these ratings than Ted Kennedy.
WATSON: Barbara Boxer, Ted know.
DOBBS: Barbara Boxer.
It's a little bit of a misnomer. There actually were three categories, Lou, foreign policy, economic policy, and social issues. In two out of the three, if you didn't vote at least half the time, you didn't get any score. So, consequently, instead of getting his typical 87 or 88, he got a 97. So it's a little bit -- he's clearly one of the 10 or 15 most liberal, but it's not really accurate to call him the most liberal.
DOBBS: Well, as I was just discussing with John King, in this presidential election year, we can take it to the bank he will be considered the most liberal, don't you think?
WATSON: Well, they will paint him on a number of issues. And, again, the White House -- Kerry's response, that anti-terrorism response today had a lot to do with the attacks he has been getting. They say, while you're a war hero, your 19-year record shows that you don't always vote for key Patriot and other missile defense systems that we need.
DOBBS: And attacking the president on the war on terror, is that going to play well in California, in particular, as we move into Super Tuesday? WATSON: You know, I think it could.
But I think, really, he's looking towards the general election. And in some ways, you could argue, he's looking towards some of the toss-up states, those Midwestern states like Ohio and Arizona and New Mexico, where people are going to want to know that he is strong on defense.
And what was interesting, Lou, is that, if you follow all of the text of his comments, him saying that the president hasn't been aggressive enough in going after Osama bin Laden, the president hasn't protected airports and ports, nuclear and chemical facilities, he not only took kind of a policy critique. He also went after the president's team personally, calling them armchair hawks, which, you know, that's hot language.
DOBBS: I think we could safely say that that's -- those are fighting words.
WATSON: Yes.
DOBBS: Criticizing the president on the issue of Afghanistan, is that valid, in your judgment?
WATSON: I think it's -- it's interesting what he did and we'll still wait to see.
I think a lot of what is going to come out is on May 27 or now maybe a couple months later when the 9/11 Commission comes forward, they are going to say, did we do a good enough job in Afghanistan, or, in Afghanistan and in the rest of the Mideast, have we only created, if you will, more backlash against the U.S. by going it alone, if you will?
DOBBS: The idea of attacking President Bush on the war on terror, the fact is, there has not been an attack for almost 2 1/2 years, for 2 1/2 years. By definition, this administration has been effective in that regard, at least. Is this dangerous territory for Senator Kerry to step out on?
WATSON: Well, it could be.
But, again, he's taking a page out of the playbook of his hero, John F. Kennedy. We've got to go back 44 years. But you remember Young Jack Kennedy, the young senator from Massachusetts, tried to run to the right of Richard Nixon on foreign policy and defense issues and yet he was a war hero as well. And the argument was that this kind of policy attack would sell well and would get him more credibility, given that he was another Massachusetts senator from a more liberal part of the country.
DOBBS: Carlos Watson, thanks for being here.
WATSON: Good to see you.
DOBBS: Still ahead, "Broken Borders," a court victory for the right of universities and colleges to exclude illegal aliens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to be about encouraging every individual in the United States to follow the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Virginia says higher education should be reserved for U.S. citizens and legal residents.
In "Failing Grades," teachers in crisis, the future of our children at risk. We'll have a special report.
And "The Passion of the Christ" attracting huge audiences and drawing criticism as well. One of those critics, David Denby, is our guest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "Exporting America" tonight, more erosion in our manufacturing base. Ford has closed its plant in Edison, New Jersey, after more than 55 years of producing cars and trucks, this the final day. A Ford spokesman says it would be too expensive to retool that plant so that it produced different models. For hundreds of workers, today was an emotional ending.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, OK. OK. Yes. I don't know. I'm getting a little teary-eyed, because the place is closing, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can praise Ford but at the same time they are part of the problem, sending jobs overseas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the plant closing, it's been devastating for everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: About 300 of the plants 900 workers will retire. Others may transfer to Ford plants elsewhere in the country. At least 400 jobs will be eliminated.
Executives from the country's top technology company say they will depend on cheap overseas labor to meet a growing demand in the U.S. e . Executives attending the Reuters Technology, Media and Telecommunications Summit here in New York, they said they will create more jobs in countries such as India and China than they will in the United States.
That trend, of course, is nothing surprising. Last year, U.S. technology employment dropped to the lowest level since 1999. Meanwhile, technology companies outside the United States continue to boom.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's thought: "We cannot protect American corporations and call that patriotic and not protect American workers and call that protectionism" -- that from Democratic presidential candidate Al Sharpton.
Now another story that we have been reporting to you for months, the "Broken Borders" special reports. An estimated eight to 12 million illegal aliens live in this country. Many of them are enjoying benefits of citizenship, including education. However, a new ruling from a federal judge in Virginia could change that. That judge ruled today state colleges and universities can refuse to admit illegal aliens.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lawsuit was filed against seven Virginia schools accused of turning students away because they were not in the country legally. Federal Judge T.S. Ellis ruled a state university does not violate U.S. Supreme Court rulings by denying admission to illegal aliens, as long as federal standards are used to define immigration status, a major victory for Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore, who represented the schools.
JERRY KILGORE, VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: There is a process to come to this country legally, whether it's by student visa or otherwise. And we need to be about encouraging every individual in the United States to follow the law.
SYLVESTER: The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1982 that children of illegal aliens are entitled to primary and secondary education. But the issue of higher education has never been settled by the high court.
PAUL ROTHSTEIN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: The earlier case dealt only with lower grades, high school and grade school, and it had some ambiguous language, which could be interpreted either way.
SYLVESTER: At least eight states not only open enrollment to illegal aliens. They also offer in-state tuition. As many as 20 other states are considering doing the same. Pro-immigration groups say affordable college should be available to everyone.
TISHA TALLMAN, MEXICO AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND: These are students who have the same ideals, values, and belief systems that we all have. And that includes the American dream, that, if you work hard, you get good grades, you should be able to be whatever you want to be.
SYLVESTER: But the Virginia judge reasoned that aliens cannot receive in-state tuition unless out-of-state United States citizens receive the same benefits. The issue has taken on new urgency because state enrollment is climbing. Virginia expects to have 61,000 additional college students enroll in the next decade and is running out of space for U.S. citizens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Virginia's state legislature is also taking up the issue. A bill has passed the House of Delegates that would ban the admission of illegal aliens. That bill now heads to the state Senate -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Lisa.
And that brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe children of illegal aliens are entitled to in-state tuition at state colleges and universities, yes or no? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results coming up.
Coming right up, the judge in the Martha Stewart case today threw out the most serious charge against her, but our senior legal analyst says that doesn't mean her problems are over. Jeffrey Toobin join us.
And later, "a dose of death haunted religious fanaticism," those the words of David Denby of "The New Yorker" magazine as he describes Mel Gibson's new film. He's our guest -- all of that, a great deal more still ahead here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The judge has thrown out the most serious charges against Martha Stewart, citing a lack of evidence. The securities fraud charge would have carried a maximum prison sentence of 10 years.
Joining me now, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, this is a big win for the defense.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: No question about it. This is a charge that the judge was uncomfortable from the start. She called it novel. Remember, the charge was that Martha Stewart made false statements to investors in order to pump up the price of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia stock.
DOBBS: That was a stretch in the judge's estimation?
TOOBIN: It was a stretch in the judge's estimation before the trial and now she has thrown it out now that she has heard the evidence.
DOBBS: How much a stretch are the remaining charges? And why don't you tell us about those quickly.
TOOBIN: Much less of a stretch, much stronger case.
Obstruction of justice, she is charged with, making false statements to the government and conspiracy to obstruct justice. All of these counts carry major prison terms. And, in a funny way, this could help the government, because it narrows the case down to the strongest part.
DOBBS: Well, I was going to ask you that. Now, does the jury -- or does the judge -- everybody knows that one charge is gone now. The fact of the matter is that the prosecution's lost one. Why would their charges be considered any stronger?
TOOBIN: Well, because the securities fraud charge dealt with facts that were very different from the other facts, dealt with comments to investors and what not, which really had nothing to do with the core issue of, did Martha Stewart lie about why she sold ImClone stock?
DOBBS: A number of the people with whom I have spoken in the legal profession, in the legal business, over the course of this trial, some have said -- these charges shouldn't have even been brought by the government, that they really -- the penalties are too weak even if she were found guilty of something. What is your best analysis?
TOOBIN: I sort of agreed with that analysis before I sat through the trial. But sitting through the trial, this was a stronger case than I thought, that these -- that both Bacanovic and Martha Stewart were given repeated opportunities to tell the truth, as the government saw it. They didn't do it. And when the government gets lied to in its face, you can see why they want -- when they are angry.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Allegedly lied to.
TOOBIN: Well, as they feel, lied to in their face. That's right.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Well, we'll know probably by the end of next week whether it is alleged or not.
DOBBS: You old prosecutor.
TOOBIN: That's right, yes.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.
TOOBIN: Have a good weekend.
DOBBS: You, too.
From Martha Stewart to another executive with a different set of problems, this a cartoon of a fictional CEO weighing the pros and cons of outsourcing jobs.
He says, "The hardest part of my job is finding the delicate balance between outsourcing to maximize profit and leaving just enough people with jobs to buy our products." Our thanks to cartoonist Drew Sheneman of the New Jersey" Star-Ledger" for sharing his work with us.
And coming up next, "Failing Grades," our special report, one of the most important careers in this country also among the least attractive for too many teachers. They are underpaid. They are overworked and they are quitting in huge numbers. We'll have a special report.
New York City Schools chancellor, a man with the toughest job in education in this country, some say, Joel Klein, joins us.
And "New Yorker" critic David Denby, he calls "The Passion of the Christ" one of the cruelest movies in history. He's our guest -- all of that, a great deal more still ahead.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our series of special reports "Failing Grades," tonight teachers in crisis.
New national testing standards are increasing the pressure on teachers without providing sufficient support, some critics say. And young teachers are simply walking away from the profession, frustrated with low pay, long hours and a desperate lack of resources and support.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lesia Kuziw has been teaching for 10 years. That's unusual. Half of all new teachers quit within five years. Most of the kids who attend Speedway Avenue School in Newark are so poor, they qualify for free lunch at school. The neighborhood is run down and most live in the projects.
That's what keeps Ms. Kuziw here.
LESIA KUZIW, TEACHER: I'm interested in making a difference in their life and turning them on to something and getting them to know themselves, to become something.
PILGRIM: Mrs. Kuziw says she is not in it for the money. She couldn't be. The average starting salary for a teacher is $29,000 a year, far below entry-level salaries for professionals with similar educational requirements. The average teacher salary has basically plateaued in the last 30 years, just above $40,000.
Teachers say the low pay isn't the only drawback.
SEGUN EUBANKS, DIRECTOR OF TEACHER QUALITY, NEA: It is not in fact the most significant factor. Most of the other factors include lack of administrative support, concerns about student discipline and then salaries. PILGRIM: In Manhattan, teachers also talk about being thrown into a classroom without backup from school administrators. It's a universal complaint.
SERVIA SILVA, TEACHER: You are faced with a situation, not textbook situation. You're faced with real-life situation. You need someone there with experience that they can guide you and help you.
PILGRIM: Hours are long. U.S. teachers spend more time with their students than teachers in any other country, sometimes sitting with the kids even through lunch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many teachers are in at 7:00 in the morning, stay to 7:00 at night, working. They're not getting paid for that, just planning, working at grades, before lifelong learners, helping each other.
PILGRIM: Or, as they told us, it's a job you do with your heart.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The teaching shortage is about to become critical. Two million teachers are going to be needed in the next decade. And many say the first step is to actually support and retain the teachers we already -- Lou.
DOBBS: Half quit in the first five years.
PILGRIM: Yes. And in some areas, in some poor urban areas, this may be 80 percent attrition in the first five years.
DOBBS: Incredible. Kitty, thank you very much.
My next guest is faced with perhaps the most difficult challenge in education in the country. Joel Klein is the New York City Schools chancellor. And, in 2002, just over half of New York City high school students were graduated.
I asked Chancellor Klein for his reaction to that alarming statistic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOEL KLEIN, NEW YORK CITY SCHOOLS CHANCELLOR: I think it's shocking and I think it speaks volumes about the crisis in urban education in America today.
DOBBS: The fact that just over half of the students graduate, the fact that you're -- having advocated merit pay for teachers doing a great job being met with resistance from all sorts of quarters. How do you respond to that? How do you overcome it?
KLEIN: Well, I think the way to respond to it is just to rely on common sense. Systems that aren't based on merit, that don't reward people for excellent performance, that don't allow pay differentials based on your need, those systems don't ultimately get the results you want.
And for too long, public education has been locked into a different model. I think the way you overcome it is the way we've begun to overcome it, is to really open up a good public discussion of these issues, to see people like the Teaching Commission, which was chaired by Lou Gerstner and had people from every political party, every walk of life on there, coming out and supporting what we are trying to do here in New York.
You know, Lou, these things didn't take a short time to get us in a pickle we're in. It's not going turn around quickly. But it will turn around, because I think we need to turn it around.
DOBBS: The idea that you would get rid of social passes for third graders and to be met with the kind of resistance and the suggestion that would damage the self-esteem of children to be held back. To many of us that just -- it boggles the mind.
KLEIN: I totally agree with you. What damages people's self- esteem in life is the inability to do the work, to be able, ultimately, to get a job. To get a school prepared. That's what really hurts self-esteem. And if we don't start to become much more demanding then we can push kids through and then have the failure rate you talked about at the outset of the program.
DOBBS: Do you support the No Child Left Behind.
KLEIN: I support it, but it does need appropriately to be modified. I support it in the following critical sense, it insists on standards. It no longer let's schools say, we'll just get them through. We'll give them a degree and it won't mean anything. I that I think is critical. If we're going to really change public education we have to have standards.
DOBBS: The teachers with whom I had an opportunity to speak and some wonderful teachers in that group have said -- and counselors have said, the school system, not only in New York but nationwide, around the country, is paying too much attention and spending too much money and giving too much focus to special programs for the special ed, whether it be language programs, rather than the fundamental core curriculum that is absolutely the foundation of all education. Reading, writing, and arithmetic. How do you respond to that?
KLEIN: We have put the focus on that. What we used to call the three R's growing up. We have put the focus, both in terms of where our money is. We establish a core curriculum in those areas. I have put coaches in those areas, in our schools -- get the fundamentals. If a child doesn't do reading, writing and arithmetic, that child is not going to do science and social studies and all the other things.
We've increased the time. We have extended blocks of times committed to these subjects. So, I think the basic thrust -- and I agree with you, we have some terrific teachers.
DOBBS: What would you say to them, the two or three most important things they can do to improve education and to bring that opportunity to young people in this country right now who are desperately being underserved by our educational system.
KLEIN: We need to invest in our teachers and understand, though, that teachers should be supported. Teachers really need to be differentiated in terms of their talent, their ability. Everybody knows that. Look, Lou, you run a show here, competes with other shows. You get rewarding according to your performance. That's the way it's got to be in our business, too.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
KLEIN: Thank you. Always good to be with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joel Klein, chancellor of New York schools.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, "do you believe children of illegal aliens are entitled to in-state tuition at state universities and colleges? Yes or no." Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results coming right now.
On Wall Street today, stocks closed out the day and the week barely changed. The Dow up almost 4 points on the day, the Nasdaq down 3, the S&P up fractionally. Basically on the week flat.
And tonight, ousted New York Stock Exchange Chairman Richard Grasso is fighting back to protect that small pittance that the big board saw fit to give him.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: He's not going to return a penny of that pittance, Lou. He's not going to return a penny of it, and he claims he is actually still owed $50 million more dollars.
Dick Grasso in a letter to NYC interim chairman, John Reed, his attorney blasts the exchange.
Nothing -- not your statement to the press, not your efforts to encourage federal or state agencies to investigate and certainly not the filing of a completely baseless lawsuit will cause Mr. Grasso to capitulate. Grasso served the NYSE with honor for 35. And since September, your treatment of him has been shameful.
The letter says Grasso's pay was perfectly legal, orchestrated by an all-star team of America's most respected executives, 40 sophisticated board members who unanimously agreed on three megamillion dollar employment contracts. Grasso's letter, signed by his attorney, is a response for a recent letter from the Exchange asking him to give back excessive pay.
DOBBS: Well, now he has just about $140 million. Where does that $48 million? Did he get that? He was going to give it back.
ROMANS: He was going to give it back, but that was never signed.
DOBBS: So, he's got that as well. ROMANS: No. It hasn't come to him yet.
DOBBS: So that's what he needs. Has he got an additional...
ROMANS: 9.7 million severance is also reportedly coming his way.
DOBBS: Well, you got to love it. It's going to be interesting to see if the big board can get back all that money they decided to give him.
ROMANS: No comment by the big board. They won't comment on the letter.
DOBBS: What about the board of directors who gave him... They are going after them, too right?
ROMANS: Well, there's only two on the current board who are on the old board. And yes, they're not going after the board at this point.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you.
We want to share some of your thoughts about our report last night on first Mexican president Vicente Fox who effectively asked President Bush to make it easier for illegal aliens to cross the border between Mexico and the United States.
President Fox has also commented that he considers himself the president of 123 million Mexicans, 100 million of them in Mexico and 23 million of them in the United States, he says.
Chris LaBarge of Galesburg, Michigan found it somewhat galling, "If President Fox is the president of all Mexicans, I have an idea. He can pay for them. States should send Mexico the bill for services illegal immigrants use for our schools and medical services. Perhaps then, President Fox would begin to see things a bit differently."
And Jerileah of Ridgecrest, California, "Why does President Fox think it is our responsibility to take in his citizens. Isn't it his responsibility to improve the job situation there and give them a reason of pride in their own country?"
Henry Weiler of Bethesda, Maryland, "who does Vicenti Fox think he is? How dare he demand that we take millions and millions of his people, when millions of Americans are already lacking services and jobs."
On Social Security and our middle class, Michael Kealey of Niwat, Colorado, "Lou, who's going to pay for Social Security in the future, when all of our jobs are exported overseas. I know the CEO's won't have to worry as they have already lined their pockets for the next 100 years."
And Mark Johns of Carnation, Washington, "Lou, I've just realized we have a 3 party system in American: Republicans, Democrats and Corporations." We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up next, Mel Gibson's new movie continues to do very well at the box office and to provoke a lot of debate. We'll be talking to a critic who certainly doesn't like the movie, "New Yorker" film critic, David Denby.
And "Heroes" tonight, we introduce you to a remarkable doctor, his heroing story, he nearly lost his life while saving the lives of others.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody would have gone in there to help the kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
And the big break in the Martha Stewart trial today. The race for the Democratic nomination, "Exporting America" and a great deal more. We'll be talking with the news makers next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported, the most serious charge against Martha Stewart dropped today. Jury deliberations will begin Tuesday. Joining me now for a discussion of those story and all of the week's top news are newsmakers Steve Forbes, editor-in-chief of "Forbes", Steve Sheppard, editor-in-chief of "Businessweek" and Rik Kirkland, editor-in-chief of "Fortune." A lot of chiefs. Good to have you with us.
STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": We're small compared to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, bless your heart. I'm glad you brought in the weight class thing there. That was very, very hostile.
Let's start with this day and let's start with this week's, to me, top development. And that's Alan Greenspan suddenly decided to help out the president and talk about Social Security.
FORBES: Well, I'm sure the White House was absolutely delighted with that. Absolutely thrilled. But I think what it's going to underscore is the president is going to have to make an issue this year that the only way we're going to resolve this thing is to allow private personal accounts in Social Security if workers choose to do so. Otherwise the system is going to implode.
DOBBS: He's already making my head hurt.
STEVE SHEPARD, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "BUSINESSWEEK": Steve, help us out.
DOBBS: It's not going to happen in an election year. What I think is really interesting is about Greenspan himself. I think that he has seen the end of his tenure which is a year away perhaps, if Bush wins, maybe a year and a half. He is speaking on the issues which he cares about which is Social Security, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, you know...
DOBBS: But Greenspan had solved this, Steve in 1983. $1.7 trillion more brought in than -- the overpayment recommendation of the Greenspan commission. Where's the money, Rik?
RIK KIRKLAND, MANAGING EDITOR, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: We need more than we thought we did for one thing. The point about him solving in '83 is a very good point. Nothing is going to happen now. You listen to the congressmen talking about this in the wake of whether they are for taxes or for doing it through cutting spending. They all say we're not going to do anything until there's a crisis. And that's exactly the wrong way to deal with a long-term problem like Social Security, Medicare. We ought to be doing small things now that can make a difference when it really matters in ten or 15 years. We're not going to.
SHEPARD: Maybe we need to go back to another commission and do a long-term plan, bipartisan, about what needs to be done. Take it out of the rhetoric of the campaign and take it out of the short-term issues of the tax cut.
DOBBS: And issue all them whips and say to both the Democrats and Republicans you're going to run government the way it's supposed to be run instead of driving these stealth budgets through which would raise this year's budget to a trillion dollars, right, Steve?
FORBES: Good old Enron accounting...
DOBBS: Exactly.
FORBES: And the moneys that went into Social Security we all know went to finance the government. All they have is IOUs there, below market IOUs and they have to get away with the paradigm of higher taxes, doing away with benefits, cutting benefits, raising the age, and do something drastic and new. The Aussies have done it, the Brits have done it, other countries have done it and it works.
DOBBS: I had the opportunity last night here, Steve, to talk with Pascal Lamay who is the trade negotiator for the European Union to defend his union's decision to put sanctions against the United States. I asked him, well, if we weren't cheating how big would the trade deficit be with your organization? It's $94 billion, and we still can't get to level. What are we going to do here?
SHEPARD: Well, you know, I think that he's right in saying that the WTO rules do not allow the U.S. government to subsidize exporters. So the question is, do we have to go through sanctions or are there other ways to deal with it. We have an import problem in this country. And we have to get more efficient. We have to get more productive.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRKLAND: ...export problem in Europe. The reason we have a $100 billion trade deficit with Europe is because they don't know how to grow. That's the main reason, it's not that we cheated.
DOBBS: If they are so dumb, though, Rik, let me ask you this, how is it we're the one with the deficit and they're the ones with the surplus?
KIRKLAND: Well, because they also have really high unemployment and a whole bunch of other problems that we'd be glad we don't have.
DOBBS: So if we had more people unemployed we wouldn't have this problem?
FORBES: We had a trade surplus in the great Depression for all the good that did us. With the Europeans I think here we have had two year's notice that this was a problem...
SHEPARD: Lou, would you rather be Europe or the United States?
DOBBS: Oh, I'd rather be American any day of the week.
SHEPARD: There's the answer to the question.
DOBBS: That's the answer for a lot of questions.
SHEPARD: I mean in terms of exports and imports and the economy. Would you rather be the American economy or would you rather be the European economy today?
DOBBS: And what does that have to do with the fact that we're running a half trillion dollar trade deficit.
SHEPARD: That's my point. We're better off than we are even though we are...
DOBBS: If we keep getting better off, Steve, we're going to be broke. We have a $3 trillion -- you don't think so?
SHEPARD: No.
DOBBS: Pascal Lamay. I thought it was fascinating. I talked with nearly every government official we have in Washington. Not one of them will acknowledge that trade deficit, a half trillion dollars trade deficit is a problem. The European Union trade commissioner acknowledges on this broadcast last night that it is a concerning and troubling problem.
SHEPARD: It's a problem. No one isn't saying it isn't a problem.
DOBBS: Yes, they are. All sorts of government officials.
FORBES: But in terms of the European Union, we've had two years to take the subsidy off and cut taxes on manufacturers. There's a bill in Congress to do a $60 billion tax cut for manufacturers. Why don't we do that? It helps us more than the Europeans to give breaks to our manufacturers.
KIRKLAND: And if we had a WTO ruling in our favor I don't think we would hesitate to use it against the Europeans.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Again, the issue to me seems not to be the sanctions themselves. But the fact that we have chronic deficits and our trading partners are running chronic surpluses or balances.
KIRKLAND: But, again, we didn't have a chronic deficit with European until eventually. The problem is after this last recession we came out of it because we cut taxes. Because we boosted spending. Because Americans are going to shop till they drop. We're the world's consumer's last resort. We grew, Europe is stuck at 1.5, 2 percent, 1 percent growth. You have an imbalance.
SHEPARD: Things are adjusting. The dollar is coming down and that will help. The real problem is not with Europe. The real problem is with Asia where the currencies aren't adjusting.
DOBBS: Just before you were trying to get me to move to Europe. Now you've got me headed toward Asia.
SHEPARD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to move you out, Lou.
DOBBS: I can believe that on a given day, Steve but the fact of the matter is I'm here and we've got some issues we are going to disagree on. One of them is outsourcing. We just reported that technology companies are going to be putting more jobs into India, into China. Saying it publicly and boldly in this country.
SHEPARD: You want me to respond?
DOBBS: Please.
SHEPARD: In the 1990s we outsourced computer technology to Asia. We lowered the cost of information technology in the United States. As a result demand was created for it. Technology spread to all industries in America. Jobs were created, productivity went up. We were better off. That is now happening with software and we're going to be better off in the long run, as well.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEPARD: We have dislocations -- we need to deal with the people who are hurt by these dislocations. But in a macro economic sense this is the right thing.
DOBBS: We have nearly a million people whose unemployment benefits are running out. No one is talking about it.
SHEPARD: We should deal with it.
DOBBS: Right now.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You know what, I get a kick out of you free traders. You don't want any management of this economy. You do not want any government planning. But by God you are ready to go in there and start planning when it comes to labor. What are you going to train them for?
FORBES: So they have the money to get...
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Since Tom Peters pointed out, in the last 20 years, we have destroyed 45 million jobs and created 75 million jobs.
DOBBS: Tom Peters also said that in the next 15 years this country is not going to be first in anything, it wouldn't be a big surprise. Does that satisfy you?
FORBES: It doesn't satisfy me. It shows we need to make changes on our tax code and some other things. We can be competitive. We have done it before, we'll do it again.
DOBBS: My producer is telling me to wrap it. I can't do this without bringing up Howard Stern and Clear Channel CEO in Washington...
FORBES: I would rather have you in the morning than Howard Stern.
DOBBS: You're very kind but the fact is, did they just discover, Clear Channel, that Howard Stern was on their air?
FORBES: They discovered they had problems with the justice department.
SHEPARD: And it was all about Janet Jackson. After Janet Jackson they discovered a lot of things.
FORBES: That was CBS, though.
DOBBS: That's Infinity but it's all media.
KIRKLAND: Suddenly we're all shocked -- shocked that lewdity and crudeness is going on in the American media. Who knew?
DOBBS: Absolutely. Rik Kirkland, Steve Shepard, Steve Forbes, gentlemen, I wish we had more time to talk so you could beat up on me some more.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: All right. Gentlemen, thanks a lot.
Coming up next, we'll be joined by "New Yorker" film critic David Denby. He has a very passionate dislike for Mel Gibson's new film.
And in "Heroes," we bring you the remarkable story of a doctor who risked his private practice at home and risked his life in Iraq to save the lives of others. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight calls the film "The Passion of the Christ" a sickening death trip. "New Yorker" film critic David Denby says Mel Gibson falls in danger of altering Jesus' message of love into one of hate. David Denby joins me now and David, thanks for being here. $26 million in an opening night. The fifth best opening in history for a movie. It is -- that's stunning, isn't it?
DAVID DENBY, FILM CRITIC, "NEW YORKER": Yes, a lot of those people were rounded up and bussed in. There's no doubt they want to see it. I wonder if they would see it if it weren't so violent. You know, if it were a beautifully spiritual movie whether it would have that kind of appeal. Who knows.
DOBBS: The appeal. Talking here the other night with representatives of the Jewish faith, the Catholic faith, and the Protestant faith, the fact is, there was movement there, spiritually, at least on the part of the Protestant pastor with whom I was speaking. It's something that we have heard from movie goers. Why do you say that?
DENBY: The debate, I think, has been interesting. Probably effective and good, but the experience of watching the movie, you know, watching a guy shackled and flogged in slow motion for ten minutes or 12 minutes at a time, I'll be damned, I guess, literally, according to Mel Gibson, since people like me are dupe of Satan, I'll be darned if that's...
DOBBS: You're a dupe of Satan.
DENBY: I'm a dupe of Satan. If that's a spiritual experience, it's very hard for me to believe that. Particularly if children are hauled in. How are you going to explain to an 8-year-old or 10-year- old, look, it's no doubt that Jesus's last 12 hours were horrible, beyond belief. The question is how are you going to represent it? Christian artists have been wrestling with that issue for a thousand years. Most of the great ones...
DOBBS: You said that in your review that he may have also, Gibson, may have also committed an aggression against Christian believers as well as being anti-Semitic.
DENBY: Well, he wants to shake people up. He's sick of feel- good religion and gentle Jesus religion. He wants, you know, to really get the suffering to make everyone feel the suffering. The question is what else do you feel when you are watching a handsome young man being flayed to death? It's really -- it could be very upsetting. And that's why the great renaissance artists, most of them, emphasized the spiritual nature of the thing. They made the body a kind of white column of light and only a little bit of scarring because they knew the danger that fascination with pain and with the physical degradation of the body.
DOBBS: I'm curious because of your wonderful expertise as a critic. The movies that we see now in our theaters are all -- many of them are extraordinarily violent.
DENBY: Sure.
DOBBS: This film was criticized for being violent before anybody saw it. Criticized as being anti-Semitic. People said this is a story Mel Gibson was a fool to put $25 million of his own money into before even a frame was shot. Is this also turning out to be one of the heroic movie production stories of all times?
DENBY: I'm not questioning his sincerity or commitment. I don't think anybody is or his bravery. That's not an issue. The question is what he's done. And as for the violence issue, God knows I must have praised many violent movies over a long career. But if it's two guys having a fight, whaling away at each other, a boxing match or a gladiatorial combat, that's one thing but a guy who is shackled and being beaten in shot after shot. That's very different. That is sadism. That's not violence, I mean, it's a form of extreme violence and it creates it own kind of fascination.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate it. David Denby of the "New Yorker," also the author of "American Sucker." Good to have you with us.
The results of tonight's poll question. 12 percent of you said children of illegal aliens are entitled to in-state tuition at state colleges and universities. 88 percent of you say not. Coming up next. Tonight's hero who saved the life of a young marine while risking his own in a minefield in Iraq. We'll have his story for you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In our segment "Heroes" tonight, a doctor serving in the Marine Corps Reserves volunteered to leave his practice and his family to save lives in Iraq. Casey Wian has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you feeling OK?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dr. Thom Merry is getting to know his patients again. He's been back on the job just six weeks after spending seven months in Iraq. Dr. Merry is also Captain Merry, maybe Flight Surgeon. His office is a reflection of his pride in being a top gun. In Iraq, the doctor captain served with the marines, saving lives in combat and nearly losing his own.
CAPT. THOM MERRY, U.S. NAVY RESERVES: A call came in that some marines were critically wounded in a minefield.
WIAN: Merry flew into the minefield and landed in what was thought to be a safe place.
MERRY: It turned out the mines were everywhere. They were every foot, every six inches. It was a nightmare. In that field was a lightly wounded person, a marine who had been killed, a young boy from Oregon, and another marine who was badly wounded and in a pit laden with mines. And in a spot where you could barely get to them, barely position your feet, let alone care for him and somehow lift him and get him out of there.
WIAN: Merry went in anyway and saved the life of the young marine.
MERRY: My biggest fear was that I would set off one of those mines.
WIAN: For his actions, he will be awarded two medals for bravery.
MERRY: Anybody would have gone in there to help that kid.
WIAN: After the life and death struggles of the battlefield, Dr. Merry now adjusts to the more routine concerns of his patients in Gardnerville, Nevada.
MERRY: If you quit smoking it is much better than almost anything I can do for you.
WIAN: And he's rebuilding his life. He sold his house to keep his medical practice going while he was away. Among his priorities now, continuing to reconnect with his wife of 21 years and continuing his service in the Marine Reserves. Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And that's our show for tonight. Thank you for being with us. Monday, Republican strategist Mary Matalin joins us. Tuesday we'll be joined by Governor Rob Taft of Ohio. Have a great weekend. Good night from New York.
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Right to Exclude Illegal Aliens From Colleges>
Aired February 27, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: 2,000 Marines on standby to go to Haiti, rebels closing in on the capital, Port-au-Prince; 20,000 Americans in Haiti may be at risk.
In "Broken Borders," a dramatic court victory for the rights of U.S. citizens and legal residents. Virginia has the right to exclude illegal aliens from its colleges and universities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a process to come to this country legally, whether it's a student visa or otherwise.
DOBBS: "Failing Grades," our schools in crisis. Half of all teachers quit the profession within five years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is the nation telling teachers, that you're not worth it?
DOBBS: Tonight, my guest is New York City Schools Chancellor Joel Klein.
And Mel Gibson says "The Passion" of the Christ is about tolerance. Film critic David Denby says it's one of the cruelest movies in history. David Denby is our guest.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, February 27. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, President Bush is considering whether to send more than 2,000 Marines to Haiti. The Pentagon said the Marines and three amphibious assault ships could be off the coast of Haiti within days if the president gives the order. The president may make a decision by tonight. In Haiti today, rebels captured the third largest city. They advanced to within 25 miles of Port-au-Prince.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this is just one of the options under consideration now by the Pentagon, as the situation in Port-au-Prince continues to deteriorate. What they are looking at, one possibility would be dispatching a three-ship task force headed by the USS Saipan, one of the amphibious ready group ships that would carry the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. If the Pentagon is given the go-ahead, the plan would be for these ships to leave Norfolk in the next couple of days, go down to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina, pick up the 24th Marine Expeditionary Force and then wait off the coast of Haiti in case they are needed.
Now, what are the possible missions for these ships? Well, they could assist in reinforcing or evacuating the U.S. Embassy in Port-au- Prince. They could assist the Coast Guard in intercepting and repatriating Haitians at sea. Or they could provide safe transport or assist in providing some safe transport for President Aristide, should he decide to leave. U.S. officials continue to hint that they believe Aristide's voluntary departure would be the best way for things to be resolved.
Today, the White House also said that planning is under way for a multinational force to provide security and assist in the delivery of humanitarian aid. But that deployment would be contingent on there being a political settlement first -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie McIntyre, from the Pentagon.
President Bush today said, as Jamie referenced, there must be a political settlement in Haiti before an international force can be sent in.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, more and more, in their private statements, administration officials are saying they see no way out of this political crisis short of President Aristide agreeing to step down and leave power.
President Aristide, of course, has said repeatedly that he has no plans and no intentions of doing so. But administration officials are saying he should look at the situation and, as one senior official put it, make the best decision for the people and the future of Haiti. Again, administration officials are saying this because the political plan they put forward has been rejected by the opposition.
That plan calls for a power-sharing arrangement that keeps President Aristide in power. Mr. Bush was asked about this today in the Oval Office during a meeting with the German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder. He was not as strong as Secretary Powell, but the president did make clear he wants a diplomatic solution and he wants it soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're interested in achieving a political settlement and we're still working to that effect. We're also at the same time planning for a multinational force that would go in and make sure that, if aid needed to be delivered or there needed to be some stability, that it could go, dependent upon a political settlement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, administration officials say President Aristide is getting the blunt message from United States diplomats, from French diplomats and from others involved in this that most people believe it would be the best thing for him to step aside. But, again, Lou, so far, President Aristide says no. The administration says it will continue to make its case.
DOBBS: John, House Speaker Dennis Hastert today reversed himself, saying the 9/11 investigation can have an extra 60 days to complete its work. What is the White House saying about that delayed decision?
KING: The White House is welcoming that decision, Lou. It is a dramatic change, of course, from the speaker and it avoids what the White House and many Republicans believe was a growing political issues. Some families of the victims of 9/11 were planning a news conference tomorrow in New York to criticize the speaker, to demand more time for the commission. That news conference has now been canceled.
That could have been an embarrassing event for the speaker. And even though the president was on the record publicly supporting an extension of the commission, many here at the White House thought it could reflect badly on the president as well. So President Bush himself, we are told, raised this issue with the speaker earlier this week at the White House, made clear that he supported an extension.
The speaker had been saying he did not want this to become a political football, if you will, with the report being issued closer to the election. But under intense political pressure, including from this White House, the speaker did reverse course tonight, Lou. That commission will now get two more into July to complete its work. And the commission spokesman said to the speaker late this afternoon, thank you.
DOBBS: Is there anything, John, in this political presidential election year that will not be a political football? That's a rhetorical question, John.
KING: Not that I can name.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: Thank you very much, John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry today said President Bush has no comprehensive strategy for victory in the war on terror. Senator Kerry said radical Islamic terrorism can only be defeated with more stronger intelligence gathering, more effective law enforcement and better relations with our allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't fault George Bush for doing too much in the war on terror. I believe he's done too little. Where he's acted, his doctrine of unilateral preemption has driven away our allies and cost us the support and critical cooperation of other nations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Kerry's remarks came one day after a debate with his rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, Senator John Edwards, Al Sharpton, Congressman Dennis Kucinich.
Today, the political weekly "National Journey" said Senator Kerry's voting record last year made him the most liberal senator of all of 2003.
Joining me now is our CNN political analyst Carlos Watson.
Good to have you with us.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Lou, good to be here.
DOBBS: The idea that we have just discovered that Senator John Kerry is a liberal doesn't seem like much of a surprise.
WATSON: Shocking surprise. Massachusetts. Who knew?
DOBBS: This is, however, remarkable, in that he is more liberal by these ratings than Ted Kennedy.
WATSON: Barbara Boxer, Ted know.
DOBBS: Barbara Boxer.
It's a little bit of a misnomer. There actually were three categories, Lou, foreign policy, economic policy, and social issues. In two out of the three, if you didn't vote at least half the time, you didn't get any score. So, consequently, instead of getting his typical 87 or 88, he got a 97. So it's a little bit -- he's clearly one of the 10 or 15 most liberal, but it's not really accurate to call him the most liberal.
DOBBS: Well, as I was just discussing with John King, in this presidential election year, we can take it to the bank he will be considered the most liberal, don't you think?
WATSON: Well, they will paint him on a number of issues. And, again, the White House -- Kerry's response, that anti-terrorism response today had a lot to do with the attacks he has been getting. They say, while you're a war hero, your 19-year record shows that you don't always vote for key Patriot and other missile defense systems that we need.
DOBBS: And attacking the president on the war on terror, is that going to play well in California, in particular, as we move into Super Tuesday? WATSON: You know, I think it could.
But I think, really, he's looking towards the general election. And in some ways, you could argue, he's looking towards some of the toss-up states, those Midwestern states like Ohio and Arizona and New Mexico, where people are going to want to know that he is strong on defense.
And what was interesting, Lou, is that, if you follow all of the text of his comments, him saying that the president hasn't been aggressive enough in going after Osama bin Laden, the president hasn't protected airports and ports, nuclear and chemical facilities, he not only took kind of a policy critique. He also went after the president's team personally, calling them armchair hawks, which, you know, that's hot language.
DOBBS: I think we could safely say that that's -- those are fighting words.
WATSON: Yes.
DOBBS: Criticizing the president on the issue of Afghanistan, is that valid, in your judgment?
WATSON: I think it's -- it's interesting what he did and we'll still wait to see.
I think a lot of what is going to come out is on May 27 or now maybe a couple months later when the 9/11 Commission comes forward, they are going to say, did we do a good enough job in Afghanistan, or, in Afghanistan and in the rest of the Mideast, have we only created, if you will, more backlash against the U.S. by going it alone, if you will?
DOBBS: The idea of attacking President Bush on the war on terror, the fact is, there has not been an attack for almost 2 1/2 years, for 2 1/2 years. By definition, this administration has been effective in that regard, at least. Is this dangerous territory for Senator Kerry to step out on?
WATSON: Well, it could be.
But, again, he's taking a page out of the playbook of his hero, John F. Kennedy. We've got to go back 44 years. But you remember Young Jack Kennedy, the young senator from Massachusetts, tried to run to the right of Richard Nixon on foreign policy and defense issues and yet he was a war hero as well. And the argument was that this kind of policy attack would sell well and would get him more credibility, given that he was another Massachusetts senator from a more liberal part of the country.
DOBBS: Carlos Watson, thanks for being here.
WATSON: Good to see you.
DOBBS: Still ahead, "Broken Borders," a court victory for the right of universities and colleges to exclude illegal aliens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to be about encouraging every individual in the United States to follow the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Virginia says higher education should be reserved for U.S. citizens and legal residents.
In "Failing Grades," teachers in crisis, the future of our children at risk. We'll have a special report.
And "The Passion of the Christ" attracting huge audiences and drawing criticism as well. One of those critics, David Denby, is our guest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "Exporting America" tonight, more erosion in our manufacturing base. Ford has closed its plant in Edison, New Jersey, after more than 55 years of producing cars and trucks, this the final day. A Ford spokesman says it would be too expensive to retool that plant so that it produced different models. For hundreds of workers, today was an emotional ending.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, OK. OK. Yes. I don't know. I'm getting a little teary-eyed, because the place is closing, you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can praise Ford but at the same time they are part of the problem, sending jobs overseas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the plant closing, it's been devastating for everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: About 300 of the plants 900 workers will retire. Others may transfer to Ford plants elsewhere in the country. At least 400 jobs will be eliminated.
Executives from the country's top technology company say they will depend on cheap overseas labor to meet a growing demand in the U.S. e . Executives attending the Reuters Technology, Media and Telecommunications Summit here in New York, they said they will create more jobs in countries such as India and China than they will in the United States.
That trend, of course, is nothing surprising. Last year, U.S. technology employment dropped to the lowest level since 1999. Meanwhile, technology companies outside the United States continue to boom.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's thought: "We cannot protect American corporations and call that patriotic and not protect American workers and call that protectionism" -- that from Democratic presidential candidate Al Sharpton.
Now another story that we have been reporting to you for months, the "Broken Borders" special reports. An estimated eight to 12 million illegal aliens live in this country. Many of them are enjoying benefits of citizenship, including education. However, a new ruling from a federal judge in Virginia could change that. That judge ruled today state colleges and universities can refuse to admit illegal aliens.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lawsuit was filed against seven Virginia schools accused of turning students away because they were not in the country legally. Federal Judge T.S. Ellis ruled a state university does not violate U.S. Supreme Court rulings by denying admission to illegal aliens, as long as federal standards are used to define immigration status, a major victory for Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore, who represented the schools.
JERRY KILGORE, VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: There is a process to come to this country legally, whether it's by student visa or otherwise. And we need to be about encouraging every individual in the United States to follow the law.
SYLVESTER: The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1982 that children of illegal aliens are entitled to primary and secondary education. But the issue of higher education has never been settled by the high court.
PAUL ROTHSTEIN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: The earlier case dealt only with lower grades, high school and grade school, and it had some ambiguous language, which could be interpreted either way.
SYLVESTER: At least eight states not only open enrollment to illegal aliens. They also offer in-state tuition. As many as 20 other states are considering doing the same. Pro-immigration groups say affordable college should be available to everyone.
TISHA TALLMAN, MEXICO AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATIONAL FUND: These are students who have the same ideals, values, and belief systems that we all have. And that includes the American dream, that, if you work hard, you get good grades, you should be able to be whatever you want to be.
SYLVESTER: But the Virginia judge reasoned that aliens cannot receive in-state tuition unless out-of-state United States citizens receive the same benefits. The issue has taken on new urgency because state enrollment is climbing. Virginia expects to have 61,000 additional college students enroll in the next decade and is running out of space for U.S. citizens.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Virginia's state legislature is also taking up the issue. A bill has passed the House of Delegates that would ban the admission of illegal aliens. That bill now heads to the state Senate -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Lisa.
And that brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe children of illegal aliens are entitled to in-state tuition at state colleges and universities, yes or no? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results coming up.
Coming right up, the judge in the Martha Stewart case today threw out the most serious charge against her, but our senior legal analyst says that doesn't mean her problems are over. Jeffrey Toobin join us.
And later, "a dose of death haunted religious fanaticism," those the words of David Denby of "The New Yorker" magazine as he describes Mel Gibson's new film. He's our guest -- all of that, a great deal more still ahead here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The judge has thrown out the most serious charges against Martha Stewart, citing a lack of evidence. The securities fraud charge would have carried a maximum prison sentence of 10 years.
Joining me now, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, this is a big win for the defense.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: No question about it. This is a charge that the judge was uncomfortable from the start. She called it novel. Remember, the charge was that Martha Stewart made false statements to investors in order to pump up the price of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia stock.
DOBBS: That was a stretch in the judge's estimation?
TOOBIN: It was a stretch in the judge's estimation before the trial and now she has thrown it out now that she has heard the evidence.
DOBBS: How much a stretch are the remaining charges? And why don't you tell us about those quickly.
TOOBIN: Much less of a stretch, much stronger case.
Obstruction of justice, she is charged with, making false statements to the government and conspiracy to obstruct justice. All of these counts carry major prison terms. And, in a funny way, this could help the government, because it narrows the case down to the strongest part.
DOBBS: Well, I was going to ask you that. Now, does the jury -- or does the judge -- everybody knows that one charge is gone now. The fact of the matter is that the prosecution's lost one. Why would their charges be considered any stronger?
TOOBIN: Well, because the securities fraud charge dealt with facts that were very different from the other facts, dealt with comments to investors and what not, which really had nothing to do with the core issue of, did Martha Stewart lie about why she sold ImClone stock?
DOBBS: A number of the people with whom I have spoken in the legal profession, in the legal business, over the course of this trial, some have said -- these charges shouldn't have even been brought by the government, that they really -- the penalties are too weak even if she were found guilty of something. What is your best analysis?
TOOBIN: I sort of agreed with that analysis before I sat through the trial. But sitting through the trial, this was a stronger case than I thought, that these -- that both Bacanovic and Martha Stewart were given repeated opportunities to tell the truth, as the government saw it. They didn't do it. And when the government gets lied to in its face, you can see why they want -- when they are angry.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Allegedly lied to.
TOOBIN: Well, as they feel, lied to in their face. That's right.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Well, we'll know probably by the end of next week whether it is alleged or not.
DOBBS: You old prosecutor.
TOOBIN: That's right, yes.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.
TOOBIN: Have a good weekend.
DOBBS: You, too.
From Martha Stewart to another executive with a different set of problems, this a cartoon of a fictional CEO weighing the pros and cons of outsourcing jobs.
He says, "The hardest part of my job is finding the delicate balance between outsourcing to maximize profit and leaving just enough people with jobs to buy our products." Our thanks to cartoonist Drew Sheneman of the New Jersey" Star-Ledger" for sharing his work with us.
And coming up next, "Failing Grades," our special report, one of the most important careers in this country also among the least attractive for too many teachers. They are underpaid. They are overworked and they are quitting in huge numbers. We'll have a special report.
New York City Schools chancellor, a man with the toughest job in education in this country, some say, Joel Klein, joins us.
And "New Yorker" critic David Denby, he calls "The Passion of the Christ" one of the cruelest movies in history. He's our guest -- all of that, a great deal more still ahead.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our series of special reports "Failing Grades," tonight teachers in crisis.
New national testing standards are increasing the pressure on teachers without providing sufficient support, some critics say. And young teachers are simply walking away from the profession, frustrated with low pay, long hours and a desperate lack of resources and support.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lesia Kuziw has been teaching for 10 years. That's unusual. Half of all new teachers quit within five years. Most of the kids who attend Speedway Avenue School in Newark are so poor, they qualify for free lunch at school. The neighborhood is run down and most live in the projects.
That's what keeps Ms. Kuziw here.
LESIA KUZIW, TEACHER: I'm interested in making a difference in their life and turning them on to something and getting them to know themselves, to become something.
PILGRIM: Mrs. Kuziw says she is not in it for the money. She couldn't be. The average starting salary for a teacher is $29,000 a year, far below entry-level salaries for professionals with similar educational requirements. The average teacher salary has basically plateaued in the last 30 years, just above $40,000.
Teachers say the low pay isn't the only drawback.
SEGUN EUBANKS, DIRECTOR OF TEACHER QUALITY, NEA: It is not in fact the most significant factor. Most of the other factors include lack of administrative support, concerns about student discipline and then salaries. PILGRIM: In Manhattan, teachers also talk about being thrown into a classroom without backup from school administrators. It's a universal complaint.
SERVIA SILVA, TEACHER: You are faced with a situation, not textbook situation. You're faced with real-life situation. You need someone there with experience that they can guide you and help you.
PILGRIM: Hours are long. U.S. teachers spend more time with their students than teachers in any other country, sometimes sitting with the kids even through lunch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many teachers are in at 7:00 in the morning, stay to 7:00 at night, working. They're not getting paid for that, just planning, working at grades, before lifelong learners, helping each other.
PILGRIM: Or, as they told us, it's a job you do with your heart.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The teaching shortage is about to become critical. Two million teachers are going to be needed in the next decade. And many say the first step is to actually support and retain the teachers we already -- Lou.
DOBBS: Half quit in the first five years.
PILGRIM: Yes. And in some areas, in some poor urban areas, this may be 80 percent attrition in the first five years.
DOBBS: Incredible. Kitty, thank you very much.
My next guest is faced with perhaps the most difficult challenge in education in the country. Joel Klein is the New York City Schools chancellor. And, in 2002, just over half of New York City high school students were graduated.
I asked Chancellor Klein for his reaction to that alarming statistic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOEL KLEIN, NEW YORK CITY SCHOOLS CHANCELLOR: I think it's shocking and I think it speaks volumes about the crisis in urban education in America today.
DOBBS: The fact that just over half of the students graduate, the fact that you're -- having advocated merit pay for teachers doing a great job being met with resistance from all sorts of quarters. How do you respond to that? How do you overcome it?
KLEIN: Well, I think the way to respond to it is just to rely on common sense. Systems that aren't based on merit, that don't reward people for excellent performance, that don't allow pay differentials based on your need, those systems don't ultimately get the results you want.
And for too long, public education has been locked into a different model. I think the way you overcome it is the way we've begun to overcome it, is to really open up a good public discussion of these issues, to see people like the Teaching Commission, which was chaired by Lou Gerstner and had people from every political party, every walk of life on there, coming out and supporting what we are trying to do here in New York.
You know, Lou, these things didn't take a short time to get us in a pickle we're in. It's not going turn around quickly. But it will turn around, because I think we need to turn it around.
DOBBS: The idea that you would get rid of social passes for third graders and to be met with the kind of resistance and the suggestion that would damage the self-esteem of children to be held back. To many of us that just -- it boggles the mind.
KLEIN: I totally agree with you. What damages people's self- esteem in life is the inability to do the work, to be able, ultimately, to get a job. To get a school prepared. That's what really hurts self-esteem. And if we don't start to become much more demanding then we can push kids through and then have the failure rate you talked about at the outset of the program.
DOBBS: Do you support the No Child Left Behind.
KLEIN: I support it, but it does need appropriately to be modified. I support it in the following critical sense, it insists on standards. It no longer let's schools say, we'll just get them through. We'll give them a degree and it won't mean anything. I that I think is critical. If we're going to really change public education we have to have standards.
DOBBS: The teachers with whom I had an opportunity to speak and some wonderful teachers in that group have said -- and counselors have said, the school system, not only in New York but nationwide, around the country, is paying too much attention and spending too much money and giving too much focus to special programs for the special ed, whether it be language programs, rather than the fundamental core curriculum that is absolutely the foundation of all education. Reading, writing, and arithmetic. How do you respond to that?
KLEIN: We have put the focus on that. What we used to call the three R's growing up. We have put the focus, both in terms of where our money is. We establish a core curriculum in those areas. I have put coaches in those areas, in our schools -- get the fundamentals. If a child doesn't do reading, writing and arithmetic, that child is not going to do science and social studies and all the other things.
We've increased the time. We have extended blocks of times committed to these subjects. So, I think the basic thrust -- and I agree with you, we have some terrific teachers.
DOBBS: What would you say to them, the two or three most important things they can do to improve education and to bring that opportunity to young people in this country right now who are desperately being underserved by our educational system.
KLEIN: We need to invest in our teachers and understand, though, that teachers should be supported. Teachers really need to be differentiated in terms of their talent, their ability. Everybody knows that. Look, Lou, you run a show here, competes with other shows. You get rewarding according to your performance. That's the way it's got to be in our business, too.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
KLEIN: Thank you. Always good to be with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joel Klein, chancellor of New York schools.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, "do you believe children of illegal aliens are entitled to in-state tuition at state universities and colleges? Yes or no." Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results coming right now.
On Wall Street today, stocks closed out the day and the week barely changed. The Dow up almost 4 points on the day, the Nasdaq down 3, the S&P up fractionally. Basically on the week flat.
And tonight, ousted New York Stock Exchange Chairman Richard Grasso is fighting back to protect that small pittance that the big board saw fit to give him.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: He's not going to return a penny of that pittance, Lou. He's not going to return a penny of it, and he claims he is actually still owed $50 million more dollars.
Dick Grasso in a letter to NYC interim chairman, John Reed, his attorney blasts the exchange.
Nothing -- not your statement to the press, not your efforts to encourage federal or state agencies to investigate and certainly not the filing of a completely baseless lawsuit will cause Mr. Grasso to capitulate. Grasso served the NYSE with honor for 35. And since September, your treatment of him has been shameful.
The letter says Grasso's pay was perfectly legal, orchestrated by an all-star team of America's most respected executives, 40 sophisticated board members who unanimously agreed on three megamillion dollar employment contracts. Grasso's letter, signed by his attorney, is a response for a recent letter from the Exchange asking him to give back excessive pay.
DOBBS: Well, now he has just about $140 million. Where does that $48 million? Did he get that? He was going to give it back.
ROMANS: He was going to give it back, but that was never signed.
DOBBS: So, he's got that as well. ROMANS: No. It hasn't come to him yet.
DOBBS: So that's what he needs. Has he got an additional...
ROMANS: 9.7 million severance is also reportedly coming his way.
DOBBS: Well, you got to love it. It's going to be interesting to see if the big board can get back all that money they decided to give him.
ROMANS: No comment by the big board. They won't comment on the letter.
DOBBS: What about the board of directors who gave him... They are going after them, too right?
ROMANS: Well, there's only two on the current board who are on the old board. And yes, they're not going after the board at this point.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you.
We want to share some of your thoughts about our report last night on first Mexican president Vicente Fox who effectively asked President Bush to make it easier for illegal aliens to cross the border between Mexico and the United States.
President Fox has also commented that he considers himself the president of 123 million Mexicans, 100 million of them in Mexico and 23 million of them in the United States, he says.
Chris LaBarge of Galesburg, Michigan found it somewhat galling, "If President Fox is the president of all Mexicans, I have an idea. He can pay for them. States should send Mexico the bill for services illegal immigrants use for our schools and medical services. Perhaps then, President Fox would begin to see things a bit differently."
And Jerileah of Ridgecrest, California, "Why does President Fox think it is our responsibility to take in his citizens. Isn't it his responsibility to improve the job situation there and give them a reason of pride in their own country?"
Henry Weiler of Bethesda, Maryland, "who does Vicenti Fox think he is? How dare he demand that we take millions and millions of his people, when millions of Americans are already lacking services and jobs."
On Social Security and our middle class, Michael Kealey of Niwat, Colorado, "Lou, who's going to pay for Social Security in the future, when all of our jobs are exported overseas. I know the CEO's won't have to worry as they have already lined their pockets for the next 100 years."
And Mark Johns of Carnation, Washington, "Lou, I've just realized we have a 3 party system in American: Republicans, Democrats and Corporations." We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up next, Mel Gibson's new movie continues to do very well at the box office and to provoke a lot of debate. We'll be talking to a critic who certainly doesn't like the movie, "New Yorker" film critic, David Denby.
And "Heroes" tonight, we introduce you to a remarkable doctor, his heroing story, he nearly lost his life while saving the lives of others.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody would have gone in there to help the kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
And the big break in the Martha Stewart trial today. The race for the Democratic nomination, "Exporting America" and a great deal more. We'll be talking with the news makers next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported, the most serious charge against Martha Stewart dropped today. Jury deliberations will begin Tuesday. Joining me now for a discussion of those story and all of the week's top news are newsmakers Steve Forbes, editor-in-chief of "Forbes", Steve Sheppard, editor-in-chief of "Businessweek" and Rik Kirkland, editor-in-chief of "Fortune." A lot of chiefs. Good to have you with us.
STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": We're small compared to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, bless your heart. I'm glad you brought in the weight class thing there. That was very, very hostile.
Let's start with this day and let's start with this week's, to me, top development. And that's Alan Greenspan suddenly decided to help out the president and talk about Social Security.
FORBES: Well, I'm sure the White House was absolutely delighted with that. Absolutely thrilled. But I think what it's going to underscore is the president is going to have to make an issue this year that the only way we're going to resolve this thing is to allow private personal accounts in Social Security if workers choose to do so. Otherwise the system is going to implode.
DOBBS: He's already making my head hurt.
STEVE SHEPARD, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "BUSINESSWEEK": Steve, help us out.
DOBBS: It's not going to happen in an election year. What I think is really interesting is about Greenspan himself. I think that he has seen the end of his tenure which is a year away perhaps, if Bush wins, maybe a year and a half. He is speaking on the issues which he cares about which is Social Security, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, you know...
DOBBS: But Greenspan had solved this, Steve in 1983. $1.7 trillion more brought in than -- the overpayment recommendation of the Greenspan commission. Where's the money, Rik?
RIK KIRKLAND, MANAGING EDITOR, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: We need more than we thought we did for one thing. The point about him solving in '83 is a very good point. Nothing is going to happen now. You listen to the congressmen talking about this in the wake of whether they are for taxes or for doing it through cutting spending. They all say we're not going to do anything until there's a crisis. And that's exactly the wrong way to deal with a long-term problem like Social Security, Medicare. We ought to be doing small things now that can make a difference when it really matters in ten or 15 years. We're not going to.
SHEPARD: Maybe we need to go back to another commission and do a long-term plan, bipartisan, about what needs to be done. Take it out of the rhetoric of the campaign and take it out of the short-term issues of the tax cut.
DOBBS: And issue all them whips and say to both the Democrats and Republicans you're going to run government the way it's supposed to be run instead of driving these stealth budgets through which would raise this year's budget to a trillion dollars, right, Steve?
FORBES: Good old Enron accounting...
DOBBS: Exactly.
FORBES: And the moneys that went into Social Security we all know went to finance the government. All they have is IOUs there, below market IOUs and they have to get away with the paradigm of higher taxes, doing away with benefits, cutting benefits, raising the age, and do something drastic and new. The Aussies have done it, the Brits have done it, other countries have done it and it works.
DOBBS: I had the opportunity last night here, Steve, to talk with Pascal Lamay who is the trade negotiator for the European Union to defend his union's decision to put sanctions against the United States. I asked him, well, if we weren't cheating how big would the trade deficit be with your organization? It's $94 billion, and we still can't get to level. What are we going to do here?
SHEPARD: Well, you know, I think that he's right in saying that the WTO rules do not allow the U.S. government to subsidize exporters. So the question is, do we have to go through sanctions or are there other ways to deal with it. We have an import problem in this country. And we have to get more efficient. We have to get more productive.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRKLAND: ...export problem in Europe. The reason we have a $100 billion trade deficit with Europe is because they don't know how to grow. That's the main reason, it's not that we cheated.
DOBBS: If they are so dumb, though, Rik, let me ask you this, how is it we're the one with the deficit and they're the ones with the surplus?
KIRKLAND: Well, because they also have really high unemployment and a whole bunch of other problems that we'd be glad we don't have.
DOBBS: So if we had more people unemployed we wouldn't have this problem?
FORBES: We had a trade surplus in the great Depression for all the good that did us. With the Europeans I think here we have had two year's notice that this was a problem...
SHEPARD: Lou, would you rather be Europe or the United States?
DOBBS: Oh, I'd rather be American any day of the week.
SHEPARD: There's the answer to the question.
DOBBS: That's the answer for a lot of questions.
SHEPARD: I mean in terms of exports and imports and the economy. Would you rather be the American economy or would you rather be the European economy today?
DOBBS: And what does that have to do with the fact that we're running a half trillion dollar trade deficit.
SHEPARD: That's my point. We're better off than we are even though we are...
DOBBS: If we keep getting better off, Steve, we're going to be broke. We have a $3 trillion -- you don't think so?
SHEPARD: No.
DOBBS: Pascal Lamay. I thought it was fascinating. I talked with nearly every government official we have in Washington. Not one of them will acknowledge that trade deficit, a half trillion dollars trade deficit is a problem. The European Union trade commissioner acknowledges on this broadcast last night that it is a concerning and troubling problem.
SHEPARD: It's a problem. No one isn't saying it isn't a problem.
DOBBS: Yes, they are. All sorts of government officials.
FORBES: But in terms of the European Union, we've had two years to take the subsidy off and cut taxes on manufacturers. There's a bill in Congress to do a $60 billion tax cut for manufacturers. Why don't we do that? It helps us more than the Europeans to give breaks to our manufacturers.
KIRKLAND: And if we had a WTO ruling in our favor I don't think we would hesitate to use it against the Europeans.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Again, the issue to me seems not to be the sanctions themselves. But the fact that we have chronic deficits and our trading partners are running chronic surpluses or balances.
KIRKLAND: But, again, we didn't have a chronic deficit with European until eventually. The problem is after this last recession we came out of it because we cut taxes. Because we boosted spending. Because Americans are going to shop till they drop. We're the world's consumer's last resort. We grew, Europe is stuck at 1.5, 2 percent, 1 percent growth. You have an imbalance.
SHEPARD: Things are adjusting. The dollar is coming down and that will help. The real problem is not with Europe. The real problem is with Asia where the currencies aren't adjusting.
DOBBS: Just before you were trying to get me to move to Europe. Now you've got me headed toward Asia.
SHEPARD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to move you out, Lou.
DOBBS: I can believe that on a given day, Steve but the fact of the matter is I'm here and we've got some issues we are going to disagree on. One of them is outsourcing. We just reported that technology companies are going to be putting more jobs into India, into China. Saying it publicly and boldly in this country.
SHEPARD: You want me to respond?
DOBBS: Please.
SHEPARD: In the 1990s we outsourced computer technology to Asia. We lowered the cost of information technology in the United States. As a result demand was created for it. Technology spread to all industries in America. Jobs were created, productivity went up. We were better off. That is now happening with software and we're going to be better off in the long run, as well.
(CROSSTALK)
SHEPARD: We have dislocations -- we need to deal with the people who are hurt by these dislocations. But in a macro economic sense this is the right thing.
DOBBS: We have nearly a million people whose unemployment benefits are running out. No one is talking about it.
SHEPARD: We should deal with it.
DOBBS: Right now.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You know what, I get a kick out of you free traders. You don't want any management of this economy. You do not want any government planning. But by God you are ready to go in there and start planning when it comes to labor. What are you going to train them for?
FORBES: So they have the money to get...
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Since Tom Peters pointed out, in the last 20 years, we have destroyed 45 million jobs and created 75 million jobs.
DOBBS: Tom Peters also said that in the next 15 years this country is not going to be first in anything, it wouldn't be a big surprise. Does that satisfy you?
FORBES: It doesn't satisfy me. It shows we need to make changes on our tax code and some other things. We can be competitive. We have done it before, we'll do it again.
DOBBS: My producer is telling me to wrap it. I can't do this without bringing up Howard Stern and Clear Channel CEO in Washington...
FORBES: I would rather have you in the morning than Howard Stern.
DOBBS: You're very kind but the fact is, did they just discover, Clear Channel, that Howard Stern was on their air?
FORBES: They discovered they had problems with the justice department.
SHEPARD: And it was all about Janet Jackson. After Janet Jackson they discovered a lot of things.
FORBES: That was CBS, though.
DOBBS: That's Infinity but it's all media.
KIRKLAND: Suddenly we're all shocked -- shocked that lewdity and crudeness is going on in the American media. Who knew?
DOBBS: Absolutely. Rik Kirkland, Steve Shepard, Steve Forbes, gentlemen, I wish we had more time to talk so you could beat up on me some more.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: All right. Gentlemen, thanks a lot.
Coming up next, we'll be joined by "New Yorker" film critic David Denby. He has a very passionate dislike for Mel Gibson's new film.
And in "Heroes," we bring you the remarkable story of a doctor who risked his private practice at home and risked his life in Iraq to save the lives of others. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight calls the film "The Passion of the Christ" a sickening death trip. "New Yorker" film critic David Denby says Mel Gibson falls in danger of altering Jesus' message of love into one of hate. David Denby joins me now and David, thanks for being here. $26 million in an opening night. The fifth best opening in history for a movie. It is -- that's stunning, isn't it?
DAVID DENBY, FILM CRITIC, "NEW YORKER": Yes, a lot of those people were rounded up and bussed in. There's no doubt they want to see it. I wonder if they would see it if it weren't so violent. You know, if it were a beautifully spiritual movie whether it would have that kind of appeal. Who knows.
DOBBS: The appeal. Talking here the other night with representatives of the Jewish faith, the Catholic faith, and the Protestant faith, the fact is, there was movement there, spiritually, at least on the part of the Protestant pastor with whom I was speaking. It's something that we have heard from movie goers. Why do you say that?
DENBY: The debate, I think, has been interesting. Probably effective and good, but the experience of watching the movie, you know, watching a guy shackled and flogged in slow motion for ten minutes or 12 minutes at a time, I'll be damned, I guess, literally, according to Mel Gibson, since people like me are dupe of Satan, I'll be darned if that's...
DOBBS: You're a dupe of Satan.
DENBY: I'm a dupe of Satan. If that's a spiritual experience, it's very hard for me to believe that. Particularly if children are hauled in. How are you going to explain to an 8-year-old or 10-year- old, look, it's no doubt that Jesus's last 12 hours were horrible, beyond belief. The question is how are you going to represent it? Christian artists have been wrestling with that issue for a thousand years. Most of the great ones...
DOBBS: You said that in your review that he may have also, Gibson, may have also committed an aggression against Christian believers as well as being anti-Semitic.
DENBY: Well, he wants to shake people up. He's sick of feel- good religion and gentle Jesus religion. He wants, you know, to really get the suffering to make everyone feel the suffering. The question is what else do you feel when you are watching a handsome young man being flayed to death? It's really -- it could be very upsetting. And that's why the great renaissance artists, most of them, emphasized the spiritual nature of the thing. They made the body a kind of white column of light and only a little bit of scarring because they knew the danger that fascination with pain and with the physical degradation of the body.
DOBBS: I'm curious because of your wonderful expertise as a critic. The movies that we see now in our theaters are all -- many of them are extraordinarily violent.
DENBY: Sure.
DOBBS: This film was criticized for being violent before anybody saw it. Criticized as being anti-Semitic. People said this is a story Mel Gibson was a fool to put $25 million of his own money into before even a frame was shot. Is this also turning out to be one of the heroic movie production stories of all times?
DENBY: I'm not questioning his sincerity or commitment. I don't think anybody is or his bravery. That's not an issue. The question is what he's done. And as for the violence issue, God knows I must have praised many violent movies over a long career. But if it's two guys having a fight, whaling away at each other, a boxing match or a gladiatorial combat, that's one thing but a guy who is shackled and being beaten in shot after shot. That's very different. That is sadism. That's not violence, I mean, it's a form of extreme violence and it creates it own kind of fascination.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate it. David Denby of the "New Yorker," also the author of "American Sucker." Good to have you with us.
The results of tonight's poll question. 12 percent of you said children of illegal aliens are entitled to in-state tuition at state colleges and universities. 88 percent of you say not. Coming up next. Tonight's hero who saved the life of a young marine while risking his own in a minefield in Iraq. We'll have his story for you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In our segment "Heroes" tonight, a doctor serving in the Marine Corps Reserves volunteered to leave his practice and his family to save lives in Iraq. Casey Wian has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you feeling OK?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dr. Thom Merry is getting to know his patients again. He's been back on the job just six weeks after spending seven months in Iraq. Dr. Merry is also Captain Merry, maybe Flight Surgeon. His office is a reflection of his pride in being a top gun. In Iraq, the doctor captain served with the marines, saving lives in combat and nearly losing his own.
CAPT. THOM MERRY, U.S. NAVY RESERVES: A call came in that some marines were critically wounded in a minefield.
WIAN: Merry flew into the minefield and landed in what was thought to be a safe place.
MERRY: It turned out the mines were everywhere. They were every foot, every six inches. It was a nightmare. In that field was a lightly wounded person, a marine who had been killed, a young boy from Oregon, and another marine who was badly wounded and in a pit laden with mines. And in a spot where you could barely get to them, barely position your feet, let alone care for him and somehow lift him and get him out of there.
WIAN: Merry went in anyway and saved the life of the young marine.
MERRY: My biggest fear was that I would set off one of those mines.
WIAN: For his actions, he will be awarded two medals for bravery.
MERRY: Anybody would have gone in there to help that kid.
WIAN: After the life and death struggles of the battlefield, Dr. Merry now adjusts to the more routine concerns of his patients in Gardnerville, Nevada.
MERRY: If you quit smoking it is much better than almost anything I can do for you.
WIAN: And he's rebuilding his life. He sold his house to keep his medical practice going while he was away. Among his priorities now, continuing to reconnect with his wife of 21 years and continuing his service in the Marine Reserves. Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And that's our show for tonight. Thank you for being with us. Monday, Republican strategist Mary Matalin joins us. Tuesday we'll be joined by Governor Rob Taft of Ohio. Have a great weekend. Good night from New York.
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Right to Exclude Illegal Aliens From Colleges>
