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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Interview With Senator Hillary Clinton; President Bush Set to Launch Ad Campaign
Aired March 03, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, it's Senator Kerry vs. President Bush in the race for the White House.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will crisscross this country together over these next months and we will hold this president accountable.
DOBBS: Electronic voting failed a number of major tests in the Super Tuesday primaries. What are we going to do before November?
The Bush-Cheney campaign is preparing a massive television advertising campaign. Tonight, you'll see there first ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN AD)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know exactly where I want to lead this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: A rising demand in Congress to take action to stop the exodus of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: Shipping jobs overseas has become a practice that we think ought to be stopped.
DOBBS: Senator Hillary Clinton is my guest tonight here to talk about her plan to end America's job crisis.
And illegal aliens continue to flood into our country. Congressman Tom Tancredo says they are driving wages lower and Americans out of work. Immigration expert Benjamin Johnson says illegal aliens have become an essential part of our economy. They meet in tonight's "Face-Off."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, March 3. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Senator John Kerry today launched an all-out offensive against President Bush after his resounding victory in Super Tuesday. Senator Kerry won nine out of 10 contests, forced his principal rival, Senator John Edwards, out of the contest altogether, and today, Senator Kerry traveled to the pivotal state of Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: I must say when the returns came in, I stood up there last night. I knew I was coming to Orlando. My first instinct was to say to everybody, guess where I'm going tomorrow? I'm going to Disney world.
DOBBS: This parallels the 2000 campaign, when Al Gore also became the clear nominee on Super Tuesday. The early nomination means more time to raise money, but it also raises the risk.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: In an important state like Florida, as well as in states like Louisiana and Illinois and other states the Democrats have a realistic chance at, you are not getting some of the free coverage you would have gotten if there still had been a race. And the other is that you could go -- there is always the risk you could go into hibernation, that, after a big victory like this, over the next four of five weeks, you may not be ready to define yourself well.
DOBBS: Sources tell CNN the Kerry campaign is anxious to choose a running mate before the Democratic Convention in Boston this July. Early speculation about possible vice president candidates, Senators John Edwards, Bob Graham, and Representative Dick Gephardt. Also talked about, Governors Bill Richardson and Janet Napolitano, as well as former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Kerry campaign announced at the same time Jim Johnson the head of the vice presidential search committee. He was the CEO of Fannie Mae for eight years in the 1990s.
Senator John Edwards today formally dropped out of the race for the Democratic nomination. Edwards said he will do everything in his power to make Senator Kerry president.
Kelly Wallace reports from Raleigh, North Carolina.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Democrats were certainly going to listen very closely to John Edwards' comments. And as they listened to him, it really only fuels speculation that he is strongly interested in being considered for John Kerry' No. 2 slot.
He went before a jampacked crowd, more than 1,500 people inside a high school gymnasium here in Raleigh, the school where his late son Wade attended before he was tragically killed in a car accident. Senator Edwards didn't show any tears. But as we said, he officially brought an end to his White House bid, saying he will do everything to make sure another John gets to the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, I decided to suspend my campaign for the presidency of the United States. But I want to say a word about a man who is a friend of mine, somebody who I believe has great strength and great courage, my friend Senator John Kerry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And when you talk to John Edwards' advisers, they say if he is asked to be the vice presidential candidate, he would certainly accept. But they also say now is not the time for this discussion, that it is John Kerry's time.
We also know that John Edwards has offered to raise as much money as he can for John Kerry, one source telling us, Lou, that John Edwards is trying to get his finance team together right now for that very objective -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, what is Senator Edwards' next step?
WALLACE: Well, right now, he at some point will be meeting with John Kerry, but aides say, when we ask them what is his next step, they say, well, he has a day job, and that is being the senator from North Carolina. He'll focus on that, but also spending some time with his family, his wife, Elizabeth, his daughter Kate, who will be going back to college, and his two little kids, Emma Claire and Jack. So some family time before back to work in the nation's capital -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, thank you very much.
President Bush today flew to Los Angeles to raise more money for his already well financed reelection campaign. The Bush-Cheney team also released two new television commercials. The commercials will begin running tomorrow in more than 15 key battleground states.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president tonight and reports from Los Angeles -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, on this unofficial first day of the general election, Mr. Bush's aides are quite candid in what they are hoping to achieve with their first round of television ads.
And that is essentially to reintroduce the president to the American people on his terms. They say they understand that Mr. Bush has lost ground, really a lot of ground in the polls over the past few months as they say Democrats have been determining the storyline. Now they say it's time for Mr. Bush to get his message out. And that message in all of these ads is that he is a decisive leader for these tough times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Thank you all.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN AD)
BUSH: I know exactly where I want to lead this country. I know what we need to do to make the world more free and more peaceful. I know what we need to do to make sure every person has a chance at realizing the American dream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, there are four ads in all. And the campaign is spending they say well over $4.5 million to put them in key target states, about 17. In addition, they are playing them on national cable networks, including CNN.
And these ads go through the challenges that the president says he has faced since he has been in office. And two of the ads do actually show images of September 11, the site at the World Trade Center, as a reminder of his leadership during that time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN AD)
NARRATOR: Some challenges, we have seen before. And some were like no others. But America rose to the challenge. What sees us through tough times? Freedom, faith, families and sacrifice. President Bush, steady leadership in times of change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, it's worth noting, Lou, that these ads are positive in nature, but they definitely do set up what they expect to talk about the president as a steady person, obviously, as you heard in times of change, setting up what they hope to be a contrast between him and Senator Kerry.
The president, we are told, has been studying Senator Kerry's record and that he believes that Mr. Kerry has been zigzagging throughout his career and they intend to start to prove that, especially in the days and weeks ahead, not necessarily in these ads, but with campaign aides coming out more and more forcefully -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Dana, we can all bet that more than the president in the White House is studying the record of Senator John Kerry.
Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash from Los Angeles.
BASH: You bet.
DOBBS: Election experts are tonight predicting significant problems with electronic voting in the general election after technical difficulties in at least three Super Tuesday states.
Critics say electronic systems do not produce paper records. They are vulnerable to hackers, software bugs and power outages. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The classic excuse, a computer glitch. In California, the electronic voting was delayed as technicians tinkered with the machines. about
In Georgia, everyone voted electronically with some problems in programming and voter cards for certain districts. Officials blame human error in programming, saying it was a -- quote -- "learning curve problem with election workers." In Maryland, there were voter card problems.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My key card would not work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found that, by wiping them off, it was apparently a film or something.
PILGRIM: One of the biggest problems, not all election workers are computer literate. And computers don't run themselves.
KIMBALL BRACE, ELECTION DATA SERVICES: Training is one of the biggest issues that election administrators face. And, inevitably, somebody was asleep somewhere in some class and didn't hear all the instructions.
PILGRIM: Fifty million people are expected to vote electronically in the upcoming presidential election. After the hanging chad debacle in the 2000 elections, the Help America Vote Act of 2002 was supposed to distribute $3.6 billion to help local districts switch to electronic voting. But the funding has lagged.
DEFOREST SOARIES, U.S. ELECTION ASSISTANCE COMMISSION: The funding has been slow in getting out. But the good news is, by the middle of May, we will distribute $2.3 billion.
PILGRIM: Some legislators have enough doubts about e-voting to worry about using it in the presidential election.
REP. RUSH HOLT (D), NEW JERSEY: Unless Congress deals with this nationally by requiring a voter-verified paper record of each vote each time a voter votes, we will have questions every time there's an election, including this November.
PILGRIM: Holt has written legislation that requires a paper trail and other ways to verify that systems have not been hacked, tampered with or otherwise malfunctioned.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Even though Congressman Holt introduced legislation on e-voting last year, Congress has been very slow to move on it. There hasn't even been a hearing on it yet. And another measure introduced in the Senate has not made much progress either -- Lou.
DOBBS: And we'll be talking with one of the senators who has introduced such legislation, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, later in the broadcast.
Kitty, thank you very much.
As Kitty reported, Diebold is one of the important companies involved in this e-voting controversy. We asked Diebold CEO Walden O'Dell to join us tonight on this broadcast. But company spokesmen said the CEO is not available, not was any other spokesman available. Diebold said O'Dell is -- quote -- "travelling internationally" -- end quote.
This is the second time that we have asked Diebold to join us here to talk about this issue. No one from the company made available tonight or previously. Later, in this broadcast, I'll be talking with David Dill, professor of computer science at Stanford University, who says we should all be concerned about the potential threat to our democracy.
Still ahead here tonight, members of Congress say they have had enough of overseas outsourcing. They want the curb the export of American jobs. Senator Hillary Clinton, as I said, will join us to talk about her proposals.
The Martha Stewart case is now in the hands of a federal jury. We'll have the latest for you.
And only a few local officials recognize same-sex marriage so far, but the number is growing. And Senator Majority Leader Bill Frist says gay marriage could spread, as he put it, like wildfire. A special report next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The fate of Martha Stewart tonight is in the hands of the jury. The judge took an hour and a half to instruct the jury. She reminded them that, if they have reasonable doubt about the guilt of Stewart or her co-defendant, Peter Bacanovic, they must acquit them.
If found guilty, Stewart faces a maximum of 20 years in prison, fines up to $1 million. Stewart's former broker, Bacanovic, faces up to 25 years in prison. The jury in the case has now gone home for the evening. Deliberations will resume tomorrow morning.
Former WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers today pleaded not guilty to fraud charges in connection with the biggest corporate scandal in American history. Ebbers surrendered to the FBI today. He pleaded not guilty to one count each of fraud, conspiracy and making false statements, before he was released on $10 million bond. WorldCom's former chief financial officer, Scott Sullivan, pleaded guilty yesterday. He agreed to testify against Ebbers. The trial will begin November 9.
The national debate over gay marriage is intensifying, growing louder tonight, pitting cities against states and states against the federal government. In cities and towns all across the country, a few local officials have begun recognizing same-sex marriage, only a few, but that number is without question rising. And today, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said gay marriages will spread across this country like, as he put it, a wildfire unless something is done.
Eric Philips reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: New Paltz, New York Mayor Jason West performed more than two dozen same-sex marriages last weekend. And he says he'll perform more, with the mayor of Nyack, New York, following his lead.
JASON WEST, MAYOR OF NEW PALTZ, NEW YORK: Our state constitution requires equal protection for all New Yorkers.
PHILIPS: The state's attorney general says same-sex unions are illegal.
ELIOT SPITZER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: And those empowered to preside over marriage ceremonies solemnizing marriages in the word of the statute should not solemnize same sex marriages.
PHILIPS: The gay marriage movement was energized after the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled last month that gays and lesbians are entitled to full equal marriage rights and can begin marrying in May. Since then, thousands of same-sex couples have wedded in San Francisco, dozens in New York, though it is yet to be seen if those marriages will last legally. Counties in Oregon and New Mexico have also approved same-sex marriages.
CHERYL JACQUES, PRESIDENT & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: I think that the country has a lot of educating and growth that's happening. And that's a good thing.
BILL THOMPSON, CHRISTIAN COALITION: We believe that you have to draw the line somewhere and stop this movement that's been going on for over 40 years in America.
PHILIPS: President Bush wants to draw the line with a constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage, a move Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist backs.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: It is clear today we must act.
PHILIPS: Another lawmaker says such an amendment would -- quote -- "write discrimination into the governing document of our nation."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPS: The truth is, Congress is not likely to pass a constitutional amendment on this issue in an election year, but states have been acting on their own. Right now, 14 states are seeking to amend their state constitutions to ban same-sex marriages. And four others have already made the changes -- Lou.
DOBBS: Eric, thank you very much. That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll: Do you believe this country will be more or less polarized after the presidential election in November, more, less, or the same? Please cast your vote at CNN.com CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the show.
This country is not polarized when it comes to keeping American jobs in this country. A bipartisan group of congressmen and congresswomen are backing a new Defending American Jobs Act. We'll have a special report for you coming up next. And Senator Hillary Clinton joins us with her new ideas to keep American jobs in this country.
Also tonight, in our "Face-off," immigration. Congressman Tom Tancredo and Ben Johnson of the Immigration Policy Center will debate whether the millions of illegal aliens in this country are helping or hurting our economy, our society, and whether we should be enforcing our immigration laws.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Lawmakers in Washington are beginning to realize, if they want to save their jobs, they will have to try to save the jobs of hardworking middle-class Americans.
The Senate tonight is debating an amendment that would ban the use of federal money to support offshore outsourcing. It's one of several new proposals designed to slow the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets throughout the world.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the No. 1 topic in Congress, the exporting of jobs.
SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: I'm offering an amendment today that says, when it comes to U.S. taxpayer money, you're not going to lay somebody off and hire somebody else 12 time zones away to do the job.
SYLVESTER: Under another bill, companies which replace American workers with foreign workers could be cut off from receiving federal grants and loans under the Defending American Jobs Act. The bill targets companies like Motorola, which reportedly laid off 43,000 U.S. workers, invested $3.5 billion in China at the same time it received nearly $190 million from the U.S. Export Import Bank.
REP. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: The idea workers who are being laid off and then subsidizing these companies who give their CEOs huge compensation packages, that is a real insult to the American people. And we've got to stop that. SYLVESTER: Another bill backed by Democrats would repeal a set of tax exports deemed illegal by the World Trade Organization and replace it with tax breaks tailored specifically to help American manufacturers.
DASCHLE: Shipping jobs overseas has become a practice that we think ought to be stopped, curtailed, discouraged in as many ways as possible.
SYLVESTER: The new proposals have worried corporate groups.
RICK WHITE, CEO, TECHNET: If you get to the point where somebody else in the world can do something that you are doing, you know, almost as well as you or as well as you or as productively as you, then you are going to have to compete with that person.
SYLVESTER: There are other bills that, instead of fighting outsourcing, focus on helping workers adjust. Senator Max Baucus has legislation that would expand job training to laid-off service workers and would plow more money into research and development.
SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D), MONTANA: The money we spend will come back to us many times over in the creation of new jobs, new industries and making products yet to be invented.
SYLVESTER: Each of the bills have a different solution to the same problem, getting people off of the unemployment lines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The majority of the proposed legislation is sponsored by Democrats. And so far, the White House and the Republican leadership on Capitol Hill have not been willing to stand in the way of outsourcing -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Senator Clinton today announced her plan to keep jobs in this country. Senator Clinton says it is vital to keep the American dream alive. And Senator Clinton will be our guest here next.
Millions of illegal aliens are taking jobs from Americans and sending money back home. Congressman Tom Tancredo and Ben Johnson of the Immigration Policy Center face off on whether that is hurting or helping our economy, whether our immigration laws should be enforced.
And later, Super Tuesday wasn't that great a demonstration of electronic voting. I'll be joined by one of the country's leading experts on e-voting.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets and its impact on American life, its quality of life, is, of course, a key focus of this broadcast.
My next guest, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, today announced a number of proposals to prevent what we call here the exporting of America. Senator Clinton wants tax credits for corporations, for businesses that create and keep jobs in this country. The senator also wants to create a manufacturing research agency to advance factory innovation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: We have the tools that we need. All we lack is the will. And, once again, we can not only make the American dream strong, but restore the strength to the words "made in America," put the American team back on the field, demonstrate that we can outcompete anybody and that we are open for business for the 21st century.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Clinton joins us now from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Senator, good to have you with us.
CLINTON: It's great to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Senator, on this proposal of yours to provide tax incentives to corporations, the cost would likely be sizable. How are we going to pay for it will be the first question critics would put before you. So let me lead with that.
CLINTON: Well, Lou, I think we have to play both offense and defense.
We do have to provide some carrots, some incentives in order to persuade some of our corporate leadership to think twice about exporting jobs. But we also know that we have a lot of loopholes that should have been closed years ago that truly do provide the kind of incentive to go offshore, to set up some charade on some island somewhere to pretend that it's a headquarters or -- when it's really just a mail drop.
We need to look at our tax code and be honest about what it does produce, the consequences of the actions that we're taking. The debate we're having now in the Senate that was brought about because of the European Union threatening tariffs against us if we didn't end an effort to provide subsidies to manufacturers here at home gives us an opportunity to begin to create a bipartisan consensus along a range of possibilities that will help us keep jobs and prevent the exporting of America.
DOBBS: You also recommend a manufacturing research agency modeled on DARPA, the old program that actually led to a couple of interesting things, like the Internet, amongst others.
The idea of government stepping into this is one of those issues that is sure to be a lightning rod for criticism. What do you envision that agency really doing?
CLINTON: Well, Lou, I think, in so many ways in our past, we have had government investments that made us richer in the future, whether we talk about the Internet, a recent Defense Department, government-funded, originally scientific communication system that we obviously know what has resulted from, but, also, the interstate highway system, our airline system, our space program, other investments that we make.
And I think, if we look at what is on the horizon -- you know, we could produce a lot of jobs in our country through clean, smart alternative energy. We could be more competitive in both conservation and in, you know, new means of producing energy for everything from the automobile and other forms of transportation to power plants.
We are ceding that field. The European Union and Japan have rather significant government programs under way to take the risks that are often difficult for the private sector to take in the beginning. And then, once you get over those obstacles, where something is doable and has commercial implications, you put it out in the private sector. And we then can outcompete anybody anywhere.
DOBBS: It's nice to hear you say that. It's nice to hear any elected official say that, because, too often, we are hearing some -- some rationalization, it seems to me, on the part of a few, saying that, not only is labor cheaper, but, in some cases, the suggestion that it's better somewhere, the competitive side of it really masking just simply cheap overseas labor.
I'd like to read, if I may, Senator, a reaction to -- from the manufacturing side to your proposals today. I'm quoting Randall Wolken, the president of the Manufacturers Association of Central New York, who said "it is more important to get the government to aggressively retain and attract jobs than to create a new agency."
How would you react to that? And he was generally supportive of your proposals, I must add that.
CLINTON: Well, I think that he's right, that what I'm advocating is a whole range of approaches and policies. The Manufacturing Research Agency is only a part of that. I would certainly start with the more immediate needs because anything that took some time for research and development is some years off. But I wouldn't forget that, because I think planning for the future is something that we can reap benefits from. But I think we need to focus on, number one, getting our tax system right, quit giving incentives to people for moving jobs offshore.
Getting our trade system right, you know, I was very disappointed when the current administration moved away from the Jordan free trade agreement, which began to try to put into place higher labor and environmental standards so it wasn't a race to the bottom. We also need to be looking at the fair treatment of our workers, and that's a big problem for us in Upstate New York, because we've lot lost so many manufacturing jobs and now we're losing service jobs. And we're not giving people the support they need to find their way back into the job market. But at the same time, we've got to have the jobs for them to be able to take.
DOBBS: In your suggestion for honesty, Senator, I have to say that we all bear some responsibility here, it seems to me, Democrats, Republicans, media, corporate America, because there was an acceptance of the initial idea that manufacturing jobs, the loss of them, the millions of them that we've lost over the past, really, almost two decades in this country, somehow would be offset by high-value jobs.
Now that those are being exported, I think there's a little more keenness to be just absolutely honest about it on all our parts. You talked about a bipartisan approach. How reasonable is it to expect a new consensus here? Because we're looking, frankly, at a free trade environment that has led to a half trillion dollar, better than half trillion dollar current account deficit for last year. We're on our way to exceeding that now, as you know. How are we going to do this?
CLINTON: Well, Lou, I think your cautionary note is exactly right. We need a little more humility too. We don't have all the answers, but one thing we can be sure of, if we do nothing, we're going to continue to export American jobs. And that's not only bad for America, that's bad for the entire global economy.
You know, I think of the global economy as an inverted triangle, resting on the shoulders of the American consumer. And if the American consumer cannot have enough disposable income in order to maintain a standard of living that creates more opportunities generation after generation, that's bad for everybody. So it is in our interest to create this bipartisan consensus.
Unfortunately, I think the administration has really bought into the fact that all we need to do is cut taxes on the wealthy, and we have to have a laissez faire attitude toward trade and toward retraining workers, the tax system and everything else, and somehow it's all going to come out in the end. That has never been the American way. You know, what I sense is a sense of fatalism and defeatism that I just reject.
DOBBS: I think we're all with you on that part. I would just like to point out, however, that free trade didn't begin with this administration. Your husband's administration was a leading proponent and a rather effective advocate of that, including the onset of NAFTA, of course.
Amongst the number of things, when we said you were going to be our guest here, Senator, a number of people pointed out to us, e- mailing us and calling us, saying, ask the senator about her helping Tata Consulting, a well-known outsourcer, open jobs -- and office in Buffalo, New York. I'm asking you, did you really understand the degree to which they were involved in outsourcing jobs when you were there?
CLINTON: Well, of course I know that they outsource jobs, that they've actually brought jobs to Buffalo. They've created 10 jobs in Buffalo and have told me and the Buffalo community that they intend to be a source of new jobs in the area, because, you know, outsourcing does work both ways. You know, we cannot close our borders. We have to be smarter about competing. We have, more enforceable trade agreements. But we also have to attract jobs from around the world. And you know, we are still the biggest market with the greatest potential for growth for businesses from literally every corner of the world.
So what I've tried to do is not only figure out tax and trade and retraining and other policies that will enable us to attract and keep jobs, but to be attractive, especially in Upstate new York, which has lost so many jobs that we can get people to come and bring their jobs to our states. So we're making real progress on that.
But, you know, it is something that I'm well aware of, and conscious of the implications. But I think that we've got to percent have trade going both ways. And again, if we're given a chance to compete, we can compete with anybody anywhere.
DOBBS: Senator, the -- John Kerry obviously is now going to be the nominee of your party. Do you think that what you've heard from him at this point is a strong enough statement on reaching a redress in trade imbalances and eliminating deficits and stopping outsourcing?
CLINTON: I think that John Kerry really understands the challenge in front of us and has made some very good proposals about addressing them. I look forward to supporting him in any way that he requests, because I think that we are going to provide an alternative, just as we are today on the Senate floor providing an alternative to the lack of economic policies by this administration and really the celebration of outsourcing.
You know, we're not going to stop all outsourcing. I'm not in favor of putting up fences around our country. I think what I want is to address the challenge we face and make sure that we are equipped to provide the incentives both to our workers and to our employers.
And Lou, let me say one other thing, because this is not just an issue for the public sector. I think that private sector leadership needs to take a good look in the mirror. They take every advantage of the American economy, the American contractual system, the rule of law that we support, everything that is great about living in America. And I think, frankly, that they need to be more responsible in how they view their obligations to this country.
Again, I'm not asking that, you know, they never do business anywhere else. But we've seen too many decisions made. Just in Syracuse, New York, this past year, we saw Carrier shut down a plant that was still operating profitably. And, you know, from my perspective, there needs to be a little more awareness of the implications of this kind of leadership on the part of the private sector. So it becomes a public/private partnership to do what is necessary to make sure that America continues to be as strong in the future as it has been for those of us who grew up enjoying the benefits of a strong economy here.
DOBBS: Senator, one last question. Do you want to be vice president?
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: No. I'm having a great time being senator, and talking to you about an issue that I care deeply about.
DOBBS: Let me put it another way, are you open to the idea?
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: You know, that is totally up to the nominee. And I don't think I would ever be offered. I don't think I would accept. Obviously, I want to do everything I can to see John Kerry elected president.
DOBBS: Do you think you would be helpful in that role as vice presidential candidate?
CLINTON: I think I could be helpful in my role as senator. I think I can do a lot to help people focus on the strengths of our candidate and the weaknesses, frankly, of the opposition. You know, we now have evidence, it's no longer speculative, about what this administration means for our country at home and abroad. And I think we're going to be able to make a very convincing case.
DOBBS: Senator, I think you're moving -- swerving rather sharply away from that call for bipartisan support for those proposals.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: We thank you very much for being with us, Senator Clinton.
CLINTON: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Just ahead, the price we pay: illegal aliens are costing this country billions every year, they are also, so say, their advocates, bringing us billions of dollars each year. But is the president's new immigration proposal the right response? We'll have two very different views, opposing viewpoints next in our face off. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our next two guest have very different views on the topic of illegal aliens. Joining me now in tonight's "Face Off" Congressman Tom Tancredo who say illegal aliens not only threaten the nation as a wholem, but harm minority groups most of all in point of fact.
On the other side of this issue is Ben Johnson. He's the director of the Immigration Policy Center. He says this economy needs immigrant workers even if they are illegal. Gentlemen, welcome to you both.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Thank you, Lou, good to be here.
DOBBS: Let me start with you, Ben, on this issue. Eight to 12 million illegal aliens. The president has put forward a proposal, Senator Daschle, Senator Hagel put forward proposals, others, Congressman Tom Tancredo put forward proposals. But the essence it seems to me at least, is first define the security at the boarder and make that determination, secure the borders.
Does that make sense to you?
BEN JOHNSON, DIR., IMMIGRATION POLICY CENTER: It does. There seems to be universal agreement that current immigration system is broken and people from all across the political spectrum are admitting that at this point and trying to find legislative proposals that will address the problems that current immigration faces.
DOBBS: Congressman, your thoughts?
TANCREDO: Well, I'm really glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear people from all perspectives are finally setting on the fact we've got a problem on our borders. But I take issue with the idea that there is something wrong with the law. You know, I hear this a lot. The law is broken. Lou, there's nothing wrong with the law, the law is clear. It says people who come into this country without our permission violate the law and need to be deported. It says that people who are here illegally and get hired, are also -- I mean the people who hire those folks are also breaking the law. We have -- there's nothing wrong with those laws, there is something wrong with our willingness to enforce them.
DOBBS: Ben, your thoughts?
TANCREDO: Well that's not the case. I mean our immigration system isn't broken because people don't want to enforce them. Our immigration system is broken because it doesn't respond to the needs of employers and families in the United States. Experts can disagree about what is the exact number of foreign workers that companies legitimately need to fill jobs that U.S. workers won't do. But everybody agrees that that number is above 5,000 and yet into the current immigration system we only allow 5,000 unskilled workers into the United States every year to get a green card.
So the reality is that is completely inconsistent with the legitimate needs that the employers have and the other point is, also, on the family note, which is it's great to talk about we respect legal immigrants and we respect their abiding by the law, but the fact of the matter is that legal immigrants have to wait between 5 and 7 years before they can be legally joined with their spouses and children in the United States. So that puts enormous pressures on the families of legal immigrants and those are the reasons that we have undocumented immigration. The absence of sufficient legal avenues for employers and the absence of sufficient reasonable ways for families to be united in the United States.
TANCREDO: I think that Ben living in a different country than I am. Certainly -- maybe Mexico has 5,000 people coming in annually, they allow annually to work.
JOHNSON: Only allow 5,000 legal workers. Legally. TANCREDO: Well, how about this. 1,400,000 legal immigrants coming into this country every year. How about 65,000 it has been up to 195,000 a year on H-1B Visas every year. How many hundreds of thousands of people here on L-1 Visas. They're all legal, it's way above 5,000, it's in the millions, who come into this country who can come in and work. 1,400,000 legal immigrants, most of them frankly unskilled and low wage workers but they can come in and do come in every single year. They can also provide the labor to which you refer. They come in legally. Now why do we need to also have about another 1 million to 1.5 million people coming across our borders illegally just to satisfy the greed for cheap labor?
It is of course that greed that allows us to maintain a porous border.
JOHNSON: We are not talking about the...
DOBBS: Just a minute, if I may ask, let me pose this question, because it -- it seems curious, that we have a broad spectrum of interest that have allied behind open borders, if you will, illegal immigration. I'm asking this of both of you, Congressman Tancredo is a Republican, conservative. We have a group of conservatives in this country, a group of liberals, businesses and labor that are suddenly massively enthusiasmed about having open borders, particularly to the south -- and not enforcing immigration laws. I have heard people say it's because we need illegal aliens to support the baby boomers who are about to retire and the social security system. Because we need to drive our housing industry. Because there are jobs that Americans don't want.
How is it that we are seeing this sort of from neo-conservative to multicultural liberals, if you will, moving toward each other on this issue of open borders, and effectively setting policy in the absence of enforcement of immigration laws?
I'll start with you, Ben.
JOHNSON: I don't see anybody moving towards open borders. The choice doesn't have to be between open borders and militarized borders.
DOBBS: No, no. Wait, wait. Let's not -- I respect you enough to not set up a strawman on an artificial choice. I haven't suggested that.
JOHNSON: No, but to suggest that open borders is the proposal, I think is a mischaracterization of what immigration reform, at least as it is being played out by most of the people that are introducing legislation in the Congress, is about. And the idea is to create a smart immigration system, create smart borders where we can help tell the difference between legitimate travelers and terrorists. Help create a smart immigration system so that we can allow employers access to the workers that they legitimately need, right, and make sure that there are wage protections in place, and make sure they are not replacing workers. Let's get off the workers of how many and focus why they are coming and the conditions they are working in the United States.
DOBBS: The reason they are coming we know quite clearly. This is abundant opportunity and wealth in this country, and there is poverty in Mexico, principally, which is the principle source of illegal aliens across the southern border. I mean there's no mystery there and or the population.
TANCREDO: We have -- what we have is -- I'm sorry.
DOBBS: Go ahead, Congressman.
TANCREDO: If you are not done I'll wait.
DOBBS: I'm done.
TANCREDO: What we have here is a convergence. I call it the perfect storm in a way of interest groups converging on this whole issue. It's the Democratic party that sees massive immigration into the country, both legal and illegal, as a source of potential voters. It is the Republican party that sees that same massive immigration as a source of cheap labor. It's the president that sees immigration as a wedge issue. He wants to use in the next campaign. That's that is a perfect storm. It's one reason why we can't get anything done. In terms of whether or not we're talking about -- open borders, let me tell you, you can put up all of -- you can increase the ability, the technological ability for us to check people coming through those ports of entry all day long, and as long as you refuse to actually secure the border, it won't mean a thing because they simply come around it.
DOBBS: Ben Johnson you get the very last word here.
JOHNSON: We have ten times as many border patrol agents as we did ten years ago. We spend five times as much money on boarder enforcement as we did 10 years ago.
What do we have to show for it?
We have more illegal immigration, more deaths at the border, and an increase in the business of human smuggling. You can't solve the problem of undocumented immigration by pouring more money into a failed system. You've got to recognize that the current immigration system needs to be reformed and that includes legal avenues for the workers and families who are using the immigration system. And includes a well regulated controlled system, that the people that are coming here are doing so under conditions where they are not taking U.S. jobs, and they are not being exploited when they get here. There is universal agreement about that, you just can't continue to pour good money after bad trying to enforce a failed system.
DOBBS: Ben Johnson, Congressman Tom Tancredo, we thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here.
Congressman, I have to ask you one thing.
TANCREDO: Yes, sir. DOBBS: Are you interested in running for the U.S. Senate from the state of Colorado?
TANCREDO: Next question.
DOBBS: That's it. That's the only question.
TANCREDO: That's the only question?
Well, you bet I'm interested in doing that. A lot of dominoes have to fall yet until we really figure out where we are in this process. The present senator from the state of Colorado has just made an announcement we all have to digest.
DOBBS: Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell announcing that he will retire at the end of this term.
Thank you very much, gentlemen, good to have you here, Ben.
TANCREDO: Good to be here, Lou.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
DOBBS: Another example today of the problems caused by illegal immigration, police discovered another almost 200 illegal aliens again hiding in a house in Phoenix. This is the third instance in the last month of which we are aware.
Officers went to the house after they received a call from a neighbor regarding suspicious activity. Police in Phoenix have found at least six houses sheltering illegal immigrants in the past two weeks. Immigration experts say Phoenix is a major hub for the smuggling of illegal aliens into the country and around the country.
Immigration is also a looming issue in Europe. Today the French Senate joined the lower house of the French parliament in support of the law which bans Islamic head scarves and other religious symbols in public schools. Senators passed that law by an overwhelming vote of 276 to 20. That legislation now goes to president Chirac for its signature. Almost 5 million Muslims live in France. That's almost 10 percent of the French population.
When we continue here, electronic voting failed in parts of at least three states on super Tuesday. We'll be talking with one of this country's leading experts on e-voting. We'll find out what went wrong. And how we can make sure it goes right next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Electronic voting failed tests in at least three states yesterday. Voters in Georgia, Maryland and California, some of them had to switch polling places or use old fashioned paper ballots after failures. My guest is one of this countries leading experts on e- voting, David Dill professor of computer science at Stanford, joining us tonight from Mountainview, California. Good to have you here.
DAVID DILL, STANFORD: Glad to be here.
DOBBS: What are we going to do? This is obviously a serious problem.
DILL: Well we need to have paper ballots. They can be paper ballots that people fill out like the existing optical scan systems or they can be paper ballots printed from a touch screen machine. But you need a paper ballot somewhere with current technology.
DOBBS: Some of our viewers who are also disgruntled voters wrote in to us over the last 24 hours and said, that's it, I'm going to use absentee ballots to ensure that my vote is counted come November. What's your reaction to that?
DILL: What we discovered is that absentee ballot systems are different in every state. In California that's a reasonable option. In some other states, you have to sign an affidavit saying you can't possibly vote by other means. And we have to look carefully at how absentee ballots are handled, because people could find their votes not counted that way. It's a reasonable option, but you have to find out what happens.
DOBBS: Senators Graham, Boxer, and of course, Clinton all putting forward proposals on e-voting. What's your reaction to -- which is the best amongst the them, as you understand them?
DILL: My group, verifiedvoting.org has done a comparative analysis of these bills, which you can find on our Web page. We're supporting the Graham Bill, partly because it's just the best bill, and partly because it's very consistent with the Holt Bill in the Congress, which will speed the passage of both bills.
DOBBS: And what is your best advice to voters out there tonight? What's your best advice to policy makers who would be watching and listening to you?
DILL: Let's start working on making sure that we have paper ballots by November 2004. And voters, you know, the most powerful thing has been grass roots pressure on organizations to take positions and on the politicians to do the right thing.
DOBBS: And we want to give them your Web site one more time as a source of information and perhaps a source of communication, if you will.
DILL: Yes, that's http, of course, verifiedvoting. V-e-r-i-f-i- e-d V-O-T-I-N-G.org
DAVE: Professor David Bill, thank you for being here. We're going to be following this subject very closely in the weeks and months ahead. We look forward to talking with you. Thank you.
We will continue here in just one moment. A glimpse of tomorrow night's broadcast, we'll have that for you and more sharp discussion on the critical issues that face this country.
And of course, the results of tonight's poll. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results now of our poll. 47 percent of you say this country will be more polarized after the presidential election in November. 27 percent say it will be less polarized. 26 percent of you say the same. We obviously have some work to do in this country between now and November.
And finally tonight, consumer groups in Britain are outraged about what they are calling a marketing scam. Coca-Cola has admitted it uses tap water in its bottled Dasani water which was launched last month in Britain. But Dasani says its filtration process is highly sophisticated, in fact perfected by NASA. Dasani is the second best selling water in the United States.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow here, we'll have a special report on the companies that make it easy for American firms to export firms. I'll be joined by Marc Andreessen, whose company helps corporations automate their outsourcing to cheap foreign labor markets. Andreessen, of course, defending outsourcing. I won't be. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER" is next.
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Aired March 3, 2004 - 18:00 ET
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, it's Senator Kerry vs. President Bush in the race for the White House.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will crisscross this country together over these next months and we will hold this president accountable.
DOBBS: Electronic voting failed a number of major tests in the Super Tuesday primaries. What are we going to do before November?
The Bush-Cheney campaign is preparing a massive television advertising campaign. Tonight, you'll see there first ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN AD)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know exactly where I want to lead this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: A rising demand in Congress to take action to stop the exodus of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: Shipping jobs overseas has become a practice that we think ought to be stopped.
DOBBS: Senator Hillary Clinton is my guest tonight here to talk about her plan to end America's job crisis.
And illegal aliens continue to flood into our country. Congressman Tom Tancredo says they are driving wages lower and Americans out of work. Immigration expert Benjamin Johnson says illegal aliens have become an essential part of our economy. They meet in tonight's "Face-Off."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, March 3. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Senator John Kerry today launched an all-out offensive against President Bush after his resounding victory in Super Tuesday. Senator Kerry won nine out of 10 contests, forced his principal rival, Senator John Edwards, out of the contest altogether, and today, Senator Kerry traveled to the pivotal state of Florida.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: I must say when the returns came in, I stood up there last night. I knew I was coming to Orlando. My first instinct was to say to everybody, guess where I'm going tomorrow? I'm going to Disney world.
DOBBS: This parallels the 2000 campaign, when Al Gore also became the clear nominee on Super Tuesday. The early nomination means more time to raise money, but it also raises the risk.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: In an important state like Florida, as well as in states like Louisiana and Illinois and other states the Democrats have a realistic chance at, you are not getting some of the free coverage you would have gotten if there still had been a race. And the other is that you could go -- there is always the risk you could go into hibernation, that, after a big victory like this, over the next four of five weeks, you may not be ready to define yourself well.
DOBBS: Sources tell CNN the Kerry campaign is anxious to choose a running mate before the Democratic Convention in Boston this July. Early speculation about possible vice president candidates, Senators John Edwards, Bob Graham, and Representative Dick Gephardt. Also talked about, Governors Bill Richardson and Janet Napolitano, as well as former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Kerry campaign announced at the same time Jim Johnson the head of the vice presidential search committee. He was the CEO of Fannie Mae for eight years in the 1990s.
Senator John Edwards today formally dropped out of the race for the Democratic nomination. Edwards said he will do everything in his power to make Senator Kerry president.
Kelly Wallace reports from Raleigh, North Carolina.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Democrats were certainly going to listen very closely to John Edwards' comments. And as they listened to him, it really only fuels speculation that he is strongly interested in being considered for John Kerry' No. 2 slot.
He went before a jampacked crowd, more than 1,500 people inside a high school gymnasium here in Raleigh, the school where his late son Wade attended before he was tragically killed in a car accident. Senator Edwards didn't show any tears. But as we said, he officially brought an end to his White House bid, saying he will do everything to make sure another John gets to the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, I decided to suspend my campaign for the presidency of the United States. But I want to say a word about a man who is a friend of mine, somebody who I believe has great strength and great courage, my friend Senator John Kerry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And when you talk to John Edwards' advisers, they say if he is asked to be the vice presidential candidate, he would certainly accept. But they also say now is not the time for this discussion, that it is John Kerry's time.
We also know that John Edwards has offered to raise as much money as he can for John Kerry, one source telling us, Lou, that John Edwards is trying to get his finance team together right now for that very objective -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, what is Senator Edwards' next step?
WALLACE: Well, right now, he at some point will be meeting with John Kerry, but aides say, when we ask them what is his next step, they say, well, he has a day job, and that is being the senator from North Carolina. He'll focus on that, but also spending some time with his family, his wife, Elizabeth, his daughter Kate, who will be going back to college, and his two little kids, Emma Claire and Jack. So some family time before back to work in the nation's capital -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, thank you very much.
President Bush today flew to Los Angeles to raise more money for his already well financed reelection campaign. The Bush-Cheney team also released two new television commercials. The commercials will begin running tomorrow in more than 15 key battleground states.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president tonight and reports from Los Angeles -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, on this unofficial first day of the general election, Mr. Bush's aides are quite candid in what they are hoping to achieve with their first round of television ads.
And that is essentially to reintroduce the president to the American people on his terms. They say they understand that Mr. Bush has lost ground, really a lot of ground in the polls over the past few months as they say Democrats have been determining the storyline. Now they say it's time for Mr. Bush to get his message out. And that message in all of these ads is that he is a decisive leader for these tough times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Thank you all.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN AD)
BUSH: I know exactly where I want to lead this country. I know what we need to do to make the world more free and more peaceful. I know what we need to do to make sure every person has a chance at realizing the American dream.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, there are four ads in all. And the campaign is spending they say well over $4.5 million to put them in key target states, about 17. In addition, they are playing them on national cable networks, including CNN.
And these ads go through the challenges that the president says he has faced since he has been in office. And two of the ads do actually show images of September 11, the site at the World Trade Center, as a reminder of his leadership during that time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN AD)
NARRATOR: Some challenges, we have seen before. And some were like no others. But America rose to the challenge. What sees us through tough times? Freedom, faith, families and sacrifice. President Bush, steady leadership in times of change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, it's worth noting, Lou, that these ads are positive in nature, but they definitely do set up what they expect to talk about the president as a steady person, obviously, as you heard in times of change, setting up what they hope to be a contrast between him and Senator Kerry.
The president, we are told, has been studying Senator Kerry's record and that he believes that Mr. Kerry has been zigzagging throughout his career and they intend to start to prove that, especially in the days and weeks ahead, not necessarily in these ads, but with campaign aides coming out more and more forcefully -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Dana, we can all bet that more than the president in the White House is studying the record of Senator John Kerry.
Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash from Los Angeles.
BASH: You bet.
DOBBS: Election experts are tonight predicting significant problems with electronic voting in the general election after technical difficulties in at least three Super Tuesday states.
Critics say electronic systems do not produce paper records. They are vulnerable to hackers, software bugs and power outages. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The classic excuse, a computer glitch. In California, the electronic voting was delayed as technicians tinkered with the machines. about
In Georgia, everyone voted electronically with some problems in programming and voter cards for certain districts. Officials blame human error in programming, saying it was a -- quote -- "learning curve problem with election workers." In Maryland, there were voter card problems.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My key card would not work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found that, by wiping them off, it was apparently a film or something.
PILGRIM: One of the biggest problems, not all election workers are computer literate. And computers don't run themselves.
KIMBALL BRACE, ELECTION DATA SERVICES: Training is one of the biggest issues that election administrators face. And, inevitably, somebody was asleep somewhere in some class and didn't hear all the instructions.
PILGRIM: Fifty million people are expected to vote electronically in the upcoming presidential election. After the hanging chad debacle in the 2000 elections, the Help America Vote Act of 2002 was supposed to distribute $3.6 billion to help local districts switch to electronic voting. But the funding has lagged.
DEFOREST SOARIES, U.S. ELECTION ASSISTANCE COMMISSION: The funding has been slow in getting out. But the good news is, by the middle of May, we will distribute $2.3 billion.
PILGRIM: Some legislators have enough doubts about e-voting to worry about using it in the presidential election.
REP. RUSH HOLT (D), NEW JERSEY: Unless Congress deals with this nationally by requiring a voter-verified paper record of each vote each time a voter votes, we will have questions every time there's an election, including this November.
PILGRIM: Holt has written legislation that requires a paper trail and other ways to verify that systems have not been hacked, tampered with or otherwise malfunctioned.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Even though Congressman Holt introduced legislation on e-voting last year, Congress has been very slow to move on it. There hasn't even been a hearing on it yet. And another measure introduced in the Senate has not made much progress either -- Lou.
DOBBS: And we'll be talking with one of the senators who has introduced such legislation, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, later in the broadcast.
Kitty, thank you very much.
As Kitty reported, Diebold is one of the important companies involved in this e-voting controversy. We asked Diebold CEO Walden O'Dell to join us tonight on this broadcast. But company spokesmen said the CEO is not available, not was any other spokesman available. Diebold said O'Dell is -- quote -- "travelling internationally" -- end quote.
This is the second time that we have asked Diebold to join us here to talk about this issue. No one from the company made available tonight or previously. Later, in this broadcast, I'll be talking with David Dill, professor of computer science at Stanford University, who says we should all be concerned about the potential threat to our democracy.
Still ahead here tonight, members of Congress say they have had enough of overseas outsourcing. They want the curb the export of American jobs. Senator Hillary Clinton, as I said, will join us to talk about her proposals.
The Martha Stewart case is now in the hands of a federal jury. We'll have the latest for you.
And only a few local officials recognize same-sex marriage so far, but the number is growing. And Senator Majority Leader Bill Frist says gay marriage could spread, as he put it, like wildfire. A special report next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The fate of Martha Stewart tonight is in the hands of the jury. The judge took an hour and a half to instruct the jury. She reminded them that, if they have reasonable doubt about the guilt of Stewart or her co-defendant, Peter Bacanovic, they must acquit them.
If found guilty, Stewart faces a maximum of 20 years in prison, fines up to $1 million. Stewart's former broker, Bacanovic, faces up to 25 years in prison. The jury in the case has now gone home for the evening. Deliberations will resume tomorrow morning.
Former WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers today pleaded not guilty to fraud charges in connection with the biggest corporate scandal in American history. Ebbers surrendered to the FBI today. He pleaded not guilty to one count each of fraud, conspiracy and making false statements, before he was released on $10 million bond. WorldCom's former chief financial officer, Scott Sullivan, pleaded guilty yesterday. He agreed to testify against Ebbers. The trial will begin November 9.
The national debate over gay marriage is intensifying, growing louder tonight, pitting cities against states and states against the federal government. In cities and towns all across the country, a few local officials have begun recognizing same-sex marriage, only a few, but that number is without question rising. And today, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said gay marriages will spread across this country like, as he put it, a wildfire unless something is done.
Eric Philips reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: New Paltz, New York Mayor Jason West performed more than two dozen same-sex marriages last weekend. And he says he'll perform more, with the mayor of Nyack, New York, following his lead.
JASON WEST, MAYOR OF NEW PALTZ, NEW YORK: Our state constitution requires equal protection for all New Yorkers.
PHILIPS: The state's attorney general says same-sex unions are illegal.
ELIOT SPITZER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: And those empowered to preside over marriage ceremonies solemnizing marriages in the word of the statute should not solemnize same sex marriages.
PHILIPS: The gay marriage movement was energized after the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled last month that gays and lesbians are entitled to full equal marriage rights and can begin marrying in May. Since then, thousands of same-sex couples have wedded in San Francisco, dozens in New York, though it is yet to be seen if those marriages will last legally. Counties in Oregon and New Mexico have also approved same-sex marriages.
CHERYL JACQUES, PRESIDENT & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: I think that the country has a lot of educating and growth that's happening. And that's a good thing.
BILL THOMPSON, CHRISTIAN COALITION: We believe that you have to draw the line somewhere and stop this movement that's been going on for over 40 years in America.
PHILIPS: President Bush wants to draw the line with a constitutional amendment that would ban same-sex marriage, a move Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist backs.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: It is clear today we must act.
PHILIPS: Another lawmaker says such an amendment would -- quote -- "write discrimination into the governing document of our nation."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPS: The truth is, Congress is not likely to pass a constitutional amendment on this issue in an election year, but states have been acting on their own. Right now, 14 states are seeking to amend their state constitutions to ban same-sex marriages. And four others have already made the changes -- Lou.
DOBBS: Eric, thank you very much. That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll: Do you believe this country will be more or less polarized after the presidential election in November, more, less, or the same? Please cast your vote at CNN.com CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the show.
This country is not polarized when it comes to keeping American jobs in this country. A bipartisan group of congressmen and congresswomen are backing a new Defending American Jobs Act. We'll have a special report for you coming up next. And Senator Hillary Clinton joins us with her new ideas to keep American jobs in this country.
Also tonight, in our "Face-off," immigration. Congressman Tom Tancredo and Ben Johnson of the Immigration Policy Center will debate whether the millions of illegal aliens in this country are helping or hurting our economy, our society, and whether we should be enforcing our immigration laws.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Lawmakers in Washington are beginning to realize, if they want to save their jobs, they will have to try to save the jobs of hardworking middle-class Americans.
The Senate tonight is debating an amendment that would ban the use of federal money to support offshore outsourcing. It's one of several new proposals designed to slow the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets throughout the world.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the No. 1 topic in Congress, the exporting of jobs.
SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: I'm offering an amendment today that says, when it comes to U.S. taxpayer money, you're not going to lay somebody off and hire somebody else 12 time zones away to do the job.
SYLVESTER: Under another bill, companies which replace American workers with foreign workers could be cut off from receiving federal grants and loans under the Defending American Jobs Act. The bill targets companies like Motorola, which reportedly laid off 43,000 U.S. workers, invested $3.5 billion in China at the same time it received nearly $190 million from the U.S. Export Import Bank.
REP. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: The idea workers who are being laid off and then subsidizing these companies who give their CEOs huge compensation packages, that is a real insult to the American people. And we've got to stop that. SYLVESTER: Another bill backed by Democrats would repeal a set of tax exports deemed illegal by the World Trade Organization and replace it with tax breaks tailored specifically to help American manufacturers.
DASCHLE: Shipping jobs overseas has become a practice that we think ought to be stopped, curtailed, discouraged in as many ways as possible.
SYLVESTER: The new proposals have worried corporate groups.
RICK WHITE, CEO, TECHNET: If you get to the point where somebody else in the world can do something that you are doing, you know, almost as well as you or as well as you or as productively as you, then you are going to have to compete with that person.
SYLVESTER: There are other bills that, instead of fighting outsourcing, focus on helping workers adjust. Senator Max Baucus has legislation that would expand job training to laid-off service workers and would plow more money into research and development.
SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D), MONTANA: The money we spend will come back to us many times over in the creation of new jobs, new industries and making products yet to be invented.
SYLVESTER: Each of the bills have a different solution to the same problem, getting people off of the unemployment lines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The majority of the proposed legislation is sponsored by Democrats. And so far, the White House and the Republican leadership on Capitol Hill have not been willing to stand in the way of outsourcing -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Senator Clinton today announced her plan to keep jobs in this country. Senator Clinton says it is vital to keep the American dream alive. And Senator Clinton will be our guest here next.
Millions of illegal aliens are taking jobs from Americans and sending money back home. Congressman Tom Tancredo and Ben Johnson of the Immigration Policy Center face off on whether that is hurting or helping our economy, whether our immigration laws should be enforced.
And later, Super Tuesday wasn't that great a demonstration of electronic voting. I'll be joined by one of the country's leading experts on e-voting.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets and its impact on American life, its quality of life, is, of course, a key focus of this broadcast.
My next guest, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, today announced a number of proposals to prevent what we call here the exporting of America. Senator Clinton wants tax credits for corporations, for businesses that create and keep jobs in this country. The senator also wants to create a manufacturing research agency to advance factory innovation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: We have the tools that we need. All we lack is the will. And, once again, we can not only make the American dream strong, but restore the strength to the words "made in America," put the American team back on the field, demonstrate that we can outcompete anybody and that we are open for business for the 21st century.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Clinton joins us now from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Senator, good to have you with us.
CLINTON: It's great to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Senator, on this proposal of yours to provide tax incentives to corporations, the cost would likely be sizable. How are we going to pay for it will be the first question critics would put before you. So let me lead with that.
CLINTON: Well, Lou, I think we have to play both offense and defense.
We do have to provide some carrots, some incentives in order to persuade some of our corporate leadership to think twice about exporting jobs. But we also know that we have a lot of loopholes that should have been closed years ago that truly do provide the kind of incentive to go offshore, to set up some charade on some island somewhere to pretend that it's a headquarters or -- when it's really just a mail drop.
We need to look at our tax code and be honest about what it does produce, the consequences of the actions that we're taking. The debate we're having now in the Senate that was brought about because of the European Union threatening tariffs against us if we didn't end an effort to provide subsidies to manufacturers here at home gives us an opportunity to begin to create a bipartisan consensus along a range of possibilities that will help us keep jobs and prevent the exporting of America.
DOBBS: You also recommend a manufacturing research agency modeled on DARPA, the old program that actually led to a couple of interesting things, like the Internet, amongst others.
The idea of government stepping into this is one of those issues that is sure to be a lightning rod for criticism. What do you envision that agency really doing?
CLINTON: Well, Lou, I think, in so many ways in our past, we have had government investments that made us richer in the future, whether we talk about the Internet, a recent Defense Department, government-funded, originally scientific communication system that we obviously know what has resulted from, but, also, the interstate highway system, our airline system, our space program, other investments that we make.
And I think, if we look at what is on the horizon -- you know, we could produce a lot of jobs in our country through clean, smart alternative energy. We could be more competitive in both conservation and in, you know, new means of producing energy for everything from the automobile and other forms of transportation to power plants.
We are ceding that field. The European Union and Japan have rather significant government programs under way to take the risks that are often difficult for the private sector to take in the beginning. And then, once you get over those obstacles, where something is doable and has commercial implications, you put it out in the private sector. And we then can outcompete anybody anywhere.
DOBBS: It's nice to hear you say that. It's nice to hear any elected official say that, because, too often, we are hearing some -- some rationalization, it seems to me, on the part of a few, saying that, not only is labor cheaper, but, in some cases, the suggestion that it's better somewhere, the competitive side of it really masking just simply cheap overseas labor.
I'd like to read, if I may, Senator, a reaction to -- from the manufacturing side to your proposals today. I'm quoting Randall Wolken, the president of the Manufacturers Association of Central New York, who said "it is more important to get the government to aggressively retain and attract jobs than to create a new agency."
How would you react to that? And he was generally supportive of your proposals, I must add that.
CLINTON: Well, I think that he's right, that what I'm advocating is a whole range of approaches and policies. The Manufacturing Research Agency is only a part of that. I would certainly start with the more immediate needs because anything that took some time for research and development is some years off. But I wouldn't forget that, because I think planning for the future is something that we can reap benefits from. But I think we need to focus on, number one, getting our tax system right, quit giving incentives to people for moving jobs offshore.
Getting our trade system right, you know, I was very disappointed when the current administration moved away from the Jordan free trade agreement, which began to try to put into place higher labor and environmental standards so it wasn't a race to the bottom. We also need to be looking at the fair treatment of our workers, and that's a big problem for us in Upstate New York, because we've lot lost so many manufacturing jobs and now we're losing service jobs. And we're not giving people the support they need to find their way back into the job market. But at the same time, we've got to have the jobs for them to be able to take.
DOBBS: In your suggestion for honesty, Senator, I have to say that we all bear some responsibility here, it seems to me, Democrats, Republicans, media, corporate America, because there was an acceptance of the initial idea that manufacturing jobs, the loss of them, the millions of them that we've lost over the past, really, almost two decades in this country, somehow would be offset by high-value jobs.
Now that those are being exported, I think there's a little more keenness to be just absolutely honest about it on all our parts. You talked about a bipartisan approach. How reasonable is it to expect a new consensus here? Because we're looking, frankly, at a free trade environment that has led to a half trillion dollar, better than half trillion dollar current account deficit for last year. We're on our way to exceeding that now, as you know. How are we going to do this?
CLINTON: Well, Lou, I think your cautionary note is exactly right. We need a little more humility too. We don't have all the answers, but one thing we can be sure of, if we do nothing, we're going to continue to export American jobs. And that's not only bad for America, that's bad for the entire global economy.
You know, I think of the global economy as an inverted triangle, resting on the shoulders of the American consumer. And if the American consumer cannot have enough disposable income in order to maintain a standard of living that creates more opportunities generation after generation, that's bad for everybody. So it is in our interest to create this bipartisan consensus.
Unfortunately, I think the administration has really bought into the fact that all we need to do is cut taxes on the wealthy, and we have to have a laissez faire attitude toward trade and toward retraining workers, the tax system and everything else, and somehow it's all going to come out in the end. That has never been the American way. You know, what I sense is a sense of fatalism and defeatism that I just reject.
DOBBS: I think we're all with you on that part. I would just like to point out, however, that free trade didn't begin with this administration. Your husband's administration was a leading proponent and a rather effective advocate of that, including the onset of NAFTA, of course.
Amongst the number of things, when we said you were going to be our guest here, Senator, a number of people pointed out to us, e- mailing us and calling us, saying, ask the senator about her helping Tata Consulting, a well-known outsourcer, open jobs -- and office in Buffalo, New York. I'm asking you, did you really understand the degree to which they were involved in outsourcing jobs when you were there?
CLINTON: Well, of course I know that they outsource jobs, that they've actually brought jobs to Buffalo. They've created 10 jobs in Buffalo and have told me and the Buffalo community that they intend to be a source of new jobs in the area, because, you know, outsourcing does work both ways. You know, we cannot close our borders. We have to be smarter about competing. We have, more enforceable trade agreements. But we also have to attract jobs from around the world. And you know, we are still the biggest market with the greatest potential for growth for businesses from literally every corner of the world.
So what I've tried to do is not only figure out tax and trade and retraining and other policies that will enable us to attract and keep jobs, but to be attractive, especially in Upstate new York, which has lost so many jobs that we can get people to come and bring their jobs to our states. So we're making real progress on that.
But, you know, it is something that I'm well aware of, and conscious of the implications. But I think that we've got to percent have trade going both ways. And again, if we're given a chance to compete, we can compete with anybody anywhere.
DOBBS: Senator, the -- John Kerry obviously is now going to be the nominee of your party. Do you think that what you've heard from him at this point is a strong enough statement on reaching a redress in trade imbalances and eliminating deficits and stopping outsourcing?
CLINTON: I think that John Kerry really understands the challenge in front of us and has made some very good proposals about addressing them. I look forward to supporting him in any way that he requests, because I think that we are going to provide an alternative, just as we are today on the Senate floor providing an alternative to the lack of economic policies by this administration and really the celebration of outsourcing.
You know, we're not going to stop all outsourcing. I'm not in favor of putting up fences around our country. I think what I want is to address the challenge we face and make sure that we are equipped to provide the incentives both to our workers and to our employers.
And Lou, let me say one other thing, because this is not just an issue for the public sector. I think that private sector leadership needs to take a good look in the mirror. They take every advantage of the American economy, the American contractual system, the rule of law that we support, everything that is great about living in America. And I think, frankly, that they need to be more responsible in how they view their obligations to this country.
Again, I'm not asking that, you know, they never do business anywhere else. But we've seen too many decisions made. Just in Syracuse, New York, this past year, we saw Carrier shut down a plant that was still operating profitably. And, you know, from my perspective, there needs to be a little more awareness of the implications of this kind of leadership on the part of the private sector. So it becomes a public/private partnership to do what is necessary to make sure that America continues to be as strong in the future as it has been for those of us who grew up enjoying the benefits of a strong economy here.
DOBBS: Senator, one last question. Do you want to be vice president?
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: No. I'm having a great time being senator, and talking to you about an issue that I care deeply about.
DOBBS: Let me put it another way, are you open to the idea?
(LAUGHTER)
CLINTON: You know, that is totally up to the nominee. And I don't think I would ever be offered. I don't think I would accept. Obviously, I want to do everything I can to see John Kerry elected president.
DOBBS: Do you think you would be helpful in that role as vice presidential candidate?
CLINTON: I think I could be helpful in my role as senator. I think I can do a lot to help people focus on the strengths of our candidate and the weaknesses, frankly, of the opposition. You know, we now have evidence, it's no longer speculative, about what this administration means for our country at home and abroad. And I think we're going to be able to make a very convincing case.
DOBBS: Senator, I think you're moving -- swerving rather sharply away from that call for bipartisan support for those proposals.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: We thank you very much for being with us, Senator Clinton.
CLINTON: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Just ahead, the price we pay: illegal aliens are costing this country billions every year, they are also, so say, their advocates, bringing us billions of dollars each year. But is the president's new immigration proposal the right response? We'll have two very different views, opposing viewpoints next in our face off. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our next two guest have very different views on the topic of illegal aliens. Joining me now in tonight's "Face Off" Congressman Tom Tancredo who say illegal aliens not only threaten the nation as a wholem, but harm minority groups most of all in point of fact.
On the other side of this issue is Ben Johnson. He's the director of the Immigration Policy Center. He says this economy needs immigrant workers even if they are illegal. Gentlemen, welcome to you both.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Thank you, Lou, good to be here.
DOBBS: Let me start with you, Ben, on this issue. Eight to 12 million illegal aliens. The president has put forward a proposal, Senator Daschle, Senator Hagel put forward proposals, others, Congressman Tom Tancredo put forward proposals. But the essence it seems to me at least, is first define the security at the boarder and make that determination, secure the borders.
Does that make sense to you?
BEN JOHNSON, DIR., IMMIGRATION POLICY CENTER: It does. There seems to be universal agreement that current immigration system is broken and people from all across the political spectrum are admitting that at this point and trying to find legislative proposals that will address the problems that current immigration faces.
DOBBS: Congressman, your thoughts?
TANCREDO: Well, I'm really glad to hear that. I'm glad to hear people from all perspectives are finally setting on the fact we've got a problem on our borders. But I take issue with the idea that there is something wrong with the law. You know, I hear this a lot. The law is broken. Lou, there's nothing wrong with the law, the law is clear. It says people who come into this country without our permission violate the law and need to be deported. It says that people who are here illegally and get hired, are also -- I mean the people who hire those folks are also breaking the law. We have -- there's nothing wrong with those laws, there is something wrong with our willingness to enforce them.
DOBBS: Ben, your thoughts?
TANCREDO: Well that's not the case. I mean our immigration system isn't broken because people don't want to enforce them. Our immigration system is broken because it doesn't respond to the needs of employers and families in the United States. Experts can disagree about what is the exact number of foreign workers that companies legitimately need to fill jobs that U.S. workers won't do. But everybody agrees that that number is above 5,000 and yet into the current immigration system we only allow 5,000 unskilled workers into the United States every year to get a green card.
So the reality is that is completely inconsistent with the legitimate needs that the employers have and the other point is, also, on the family note, which is it's great to talk about we respect legal immigrants and we respect their abiding by the law, but the fact of the matter is that legal immigrants have to wait between 5 and 7 years before they can be legally joined with their spouses and children in the United States. So that puts enormous pressures on the families of legal immigrants and those are the reasons that we have undocumented immigration. The absence of sufficient legal avenues for employers and the absence of sufficient reasonable ways for families to be united in the United States.
TANCREDO: I think that Ben living in a different country than I am. Certainly -- maybe Mexico has 5,000 people coming in annually, they allow annually to work.
JOHNSON: Only allow 5,000 legal workers. Legally. TANCREDO: Well, how about this. 1,400,000 legal immigrants coming into this country every year. How about 65,000 it has been up to 195,000 a year on H-1B Visas every year. How many hundreds of thousands of people here on L-1 Visas. They're all legal, it's way above 5,000, it's in the millions, who come into this country who can come in and work. 1,400,000 legal immigrants, most of them frankly unskilled and low wage workers but they can come in and do come in every single year. They can also provide the labor to which you refer. They come in legally. Now why do we need to also have about another 1 million to 1.5 million people coming across our borders illegally just to satisfy the greed for cheap labor?
It is of course that greed that allows us to maintain a porous border.
JOHNSON: We are not talking about the...
DOBBS: Just a minute, if I may ask, let me pose this question, because it -- it seems curious, that we have a broad spectrum of interest that have allied behind open borders, if you will, illegal immigration. I'm asking this of both of you, Congressman Tancredo is a Republican, conservative. We have a group of conservatives in this country, a group of liberals, businesses and labor that are suddenly massively enthusiasmed about having open borders, particularly to the south -- and not enforcing immigration laws. I have heard people say it's because we need illegal aliens to support the baby boomers who are about to retire and the social security system. Because we need to drive our housing industry. Because there are jobs that Americans don't want.
How is it that we are seeing this sort of from neo-conservative to multicultural liberals, if you will, moving toward each other on this issue of open borders, and effectively setting policy in the absence of enforcement of immigration laws?
I'll start with you, Ben.
JOHNSON: I don't see anybody moving towards open borders. The choice doesn't have to be between open borders and militarized borders.
DOBBS: No, no. Wait, wait. Let's not -- I respect you enough to not set up a strawman on an artificial choice. I haven't suggested that.
JOHNSON: No, but to suggest that open borders is the proposal, I think is a mischaracterization of what immigration reform, at least as it is being played out by most of the people that are introducing legislation in the Congress, is about. And the idea is to create a smart immigration system, create smart borders where we can help tell the difference between legitimate travelers and terrorists. Help create a smart immigration system so that we can allow employers access to the workers that they legitimately need, right, and make sure that there are wage protections in place, and make sure they are not replacing workers. Let's get off the workers of how many and focus why they are coming and the conditions they are working in the United States.
DOBBS: The reason they are coming we know quite clearly. This is abundant opportunity and wealth in this country, and there is poverty in Mexico, principally, which is the principle source of illegal aliens across the southern border. I mean there's no mystery there and or the population.
TANCREDO: We have -- what we have is -- I'm sorry.
DOBBS: Go ahead, Congressman.
TANCREDO: If you are not done I'll wait.
DOBBS: I'm done.
TANCREDO: What we have here is a convergence. I call it the perfect storm in a way of interest groups converging on this whole issue. It's the Democratic party that sees massive immigration into the country, both legal and illegal, as a source of potential voters. It is the Republican party that sees that same massive immigration as a source of cheap labor. It's the president that sees immigration as a wedge issue. He wants to use in the next campaign. That's that is a perfect storm. It's one reason why we can't get anything done. In terms of whether or not we're talking about -- open borders, let me tell you, you can put up all of -- you can increase the ability, the technological ability for us to check people coming through those ports of entry all day long, and as long as you refuse to actually secure the border, it won't mean a thing because they simply come around it.
DOBBS: Ben Johnson you get the very last word here.
JOHNSON: We have ten times as many border patrol agents as we did ten years ago. We spend five times as much money on boarder enforcement as we did 10 years ago.
What do we have to show for it?
We have more illegal immigration, more deaths at the border, and an increase in the business of human smuggling. You can't solve the problem of undocumented immigration by pouring more money into a failed system. You've got to recognize that the current immigration system needs to be reformed and that includes legal avenues for the workers and families who are using the immigration system. And includes a well regulated controlled system, that the people that are coming here are doing so under conditions where they are not taking U.S. jobs, and they are not being exploited when they get here. There is universal agreement about that, you just can't continue to pour good money after bad trying to enforce a failed system.
DOBBS: Ben Johnson, Congressman Tom Tancredo, we thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here.
Congressman, I have to ask you one thing.
TANCREDO: Yes, sir. DOBBS: Are you interested in running for the U.S. Senate from the state of Colorado?
TANCREDO: Next question.
DOBBS: That's it. That's the only question.
TANCREDO: That's the only question?
Well, you bet I'm interested in doing that. A lot of dominoes have to fall yet until we really figure out where we are in this process. The present senator from the state of Colorado has just made an announcement we all have to digest.
DOBBS: Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell announcing that he will retire at the end of this term.
Thank you very much, gentlemen, good to have you here, Ben.
TANCREDO: Good to be here, Lou.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
DOBBS: Another example today of the problems caused by illegal immigration, police discovered another almost 200 illegal aliens again hiding in a house in Phoenix. This is the third instance in the last month of which we are aware.
Officers went to the house after they received a call from a neighbor regarding suspicious activity. Police in Phoenix have found at least six houses sheltering illegal immigrants in the past two weeks. Immigration experts say Phoenix is a major hub for the smuggling of illegal aliens into the country and around the country.
Immigration is also a looming issue in Europe. Today the French Senate joined the lower house of the French parliament in support of the law which bans Islamic head scarves and other religious symbols in public schools. Senators passed that law by an overwhelming vote of 276 to 20. That legislation now goes to president Chirac for its signature. Almost 5 million Muslims live in France. That's almost 10 percent of the French population.
When we continue here, electronic voting failed in parts of at least three states on super Tuesday. We'll be talking with one of this country's leading experts on e-voting. We'll find out what went wrong. And how we can make sure it goes right next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Electronic voting failed tests in at least three states yesterday. Voters in Georgia, Maryland and California, some of them had to switch polling places or use old fashioned paper ballots after failures. My guest is one of this countries leading experts on e- voting, David Dill professor of computer science at Stanford, joining us tonight from Mountainview, California. Good to have you here.
DAVID DILL, STANFORD: Glad to be here.
DOBBS: What are we going to do? This is obviously a serious problem.
DILL: Well we need to have paper ballots. They can be paper ballots that people fill out like the existing optical scan systems or they can be paper ballots printed from a touch screen machine. But you need a paper ballot somewhere with current technology.
DOBBS: Some of our viewers who are also disgruntled voters wrote in to us over the last 24 hours and said, that's it, I'm going to use absentee ballots to ensure that my vote is counted come November. What's your reaction to that?
DILL: What we discovered is that absentee ballot systems are different in every state. In California that's a reasonable option. In some other states, you have to sign an affidavit saying you can't possibly vote by other means. And we have to look carefully at how absentee ballots are handled, because people could find their votes not counted that way. It's a reasonable option, but you have to find out what happens.
DOBBS: Senators Graham, Boxer, and of course, Clinton all putting forward proposals on e-voting. What's your reaction to -- which is the best amongst the them, as you understand them?
DILL: My group, verifiedvoting.org has done a comparative analysis of these bills, which you can find on our Web page. We're supporting the Graham Bill, partly because it's just the best bill, and partly because it's very consistent with the Holt Bill in the Congress, which will speed the passage of both bills.
DOBBS: And what is your best advice to voters out there tonight? What's your best advice to policy makers who would be watching and listening to you?
DILL: Let's start working on making sure that we have paper ballots by November 2004. And voters, you know, the most powerful thing has been grass roots pressure on organizations to take positions and on the politicians to do the right thing.
DOBBS: And we want to give them your Web site one more time as a source of information and perhaps a source of communication, if you will.
DILL: Yes, that's http, of course, verifiedvoting. V-e-r-i-f-i- e-d V-O-T-I-N-G.org
DAVE: Professor David Bill, thank you for being here. We're going to be following this subject very closely in the weeks and months ahead. We look forward to talking with you. Thank you.
We will continue here in just one moment. A glimpse of tomorrow night's broadcast, we'll have that for you and more sharp discussion on the critical issues that face this country.
And of course, the results of tonight's poll. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results now of our poll. 47 percent of you say this country will be more polarized after the presidential election in November. 27 percent say it will be less polarized. 26 percent of you say the same. We obviously have some work to do in this country between now and November.
And finally tonight, consumer groups in Britain are outraged about what they are calling a marketing scam. Coca-Cola has admitted it uses tap water in its bottled Dasani water which was launched last month in Britain. But Dasani says its filtration process is highly sophisticated, in fact perfected by NASA. Dasani is the second best selling water in the United States.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow here, we'll have a special report on the companies that make it easy for American firms to export firms. I'll be joined by Marc Andreessen, whose company helps corporations automate their outsourcing to cheap foreign labor markets. Andreessen, of course, defending outsourcing. I won't be. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER" is next.
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