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An Interview with Paul Bremer and Adnan Pachachi; Interview with Rudy Giuliani

Aired March 5, 2004 - 07:00   ET


BILL HEMMER, HOST: How a war-torn country takes a step toward democracy.
The first national poll says John Kerry locked down the nomination. Where he stands against the White House.

And two words Democrats may not want to hear: Ralph Nader.

And rainstorms packing the course of a hurricane. Highways look like a demolition derby.

Ahead this morning on AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, HOST: Good morning, welcome everybody.

Other stories that we're following this morning. The controversy over the president's use of 9/11 pictures in his campaign ads.

Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani is going to join us in just a few minutes to offer his perspective this morning.

HEMMER: Also now that we know water once existed on Mars next questions include how much, how deep and how long ago was it there. We'll talk with a scientist about that this hour from the red planet.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Cafferty.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN: And red dirt rock.

HEMMER: Yes, and a lot of it.

CAFFERTY: Glad we got that nailed down.

O'BRIEN: Fantastic question of the day.


O'BRIEN: Fantastic question of the day.

CAFFERTY: What is it?

O'BRIEN: I'm not going to tell; you tell. But it's good.

CAFFERTY: You like it?

O'BRIEN: Obviously need a drum roll.

CAFFERTY: Are the Ten Commandments enough? This was actually a story that was in the file earlier.

With tongue firmly in cheek we're going to pursue the idea of a possible eleventh commandment here.

HEMMER: I don't like it; the tease came on Tuesday of this week. We've been waiting.

CAFFERTY: Well we want to give them time to work up to this.

O'BRIEN: It takes a while. It takes a while.

CAFFERTY: Got to cogitate.

O'BRIEN: Excellent. Thanks, Jack. Let's get right to our top stories this morning.

Fast moving storms bearing down on Texas and Oklahoma leaving behind a path of destruction.

High winds and twisters flipped over mobile homes and tractor- trailer rigs and heavy rains backed up traffic. At least three deaths in Oklahoma are being blamed on the weather.

We're going to have more on where the storm is heading in just a few moments.

Jury selection underway now in the Scott Peterson double murder trial, the process of selecting 12 jurors and six alternates could take about a month.

Yesterday, potential jurors spent much of the day filling out a 30-page questionnaire. Peterson is accused of killing his wife and their unborn son.

Rusty Dornin is going to update on this story coming up in the next half-hour.

Mexico's president Vicente Fox begins a two-day visit to the U.S. today. The Mexican leader expected to discuss border security and immigration with President Bush at his ranch in Texas. At the top of Fox's agenda is making sure that President Bush continues to push for a proposal which would allow Mexicans with visas to make short trips to the U.S. without having to be fingerprinted and photographed.

The biological mother of a little girl who was kidnapped when she was just ten days old could have her daughter back as early as next week. A New Jersey court said that Luz Cuevas will get custody of her six-year old daughter Delimar. The child was taken by a family acquaintance who set fire; they believe, to Cuevas' home to cover her tracks.

The mother said she was overjoyed by the judge's custody decisions.


LUZ CUEVAZ, BIRTH MOTHER: I'm so happy to get -- I'm find my daughter, you know. I can't be...


O'BRIEN: The woman who allegedly kidnapped little Delimar is being held on $1 million bail.

HEMMER: A bit later this morning I have the attorney for Ms. Cuevas on and they say they're going to get together again today, so we'll see how that meeting goes, as well.

Check of the weather now Chad Myers is on assignment. I think it's for the last day. Rob Marciano doing a great job with us.

Good morning, Rob, nice to have you again.


HEMMER: In about an hour's time, members of Iraq's U.S. governing council will sign an interim constitution.

That document will pave the way for Iraqi self-rule come the first of July. A political milestone for certain.

During a week in which 181 people were killed by insurgents, on the holiest day of the year for Shiites.

A bit earlier I talked with Paul Bremer, U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq, and Adnan Pachachi of the Iraqi governing council. Ambassador Bremer has said this is political science 101 today and a lesson in compromise.

What does he think it means now for the Iraqi people?


L. PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR: This is an extraordinary document, which is really unprecedented in Iraq's history, and in many ways in the history of the region because it embeds a lot of the best practices that democracies, over a thousand years, about protecting individual rights, holding all individuals equal before the law irrespective of gender, religion, nationality.

Providing protections for the innocent until proven guilty, allowing freedom of speech and demonstrations and all of these things obviously had to be worked through a group of people who had to learn to compromise and not everybody could get everything they wanted on every article of a 64-article document.

And it was a wonderful thing to see.

HEMMER: This past week there were some devastating bombings three days ago. The finger has been pointed at a man by the name of Zarqawi. Mr. Bremer do you believe he is alive?

BREMER: Well, I have no reason to believe he's dead. I've seen a report to that effect. We have nothing to confirm that. I think it's quite clear that this -- these bombings were very consistent with a terrible strategy, which he outlined a month ago, which was to kill as many Shiia as possible; men women and children in an effort to provoke violence here. And it's to the credit of the Iraqi people that this has not worked.

Leaders from the Shiia, Sunni, Arab and Kurd communities all came up and denounced those attacks on Tuesday.

HEMMER: You have said and others have said the U.S. will try and help the Iraqis defend their own borders keeping foreign fighters out. How is that possible knowing the countless routes into the country of Iraq today?

BREMER: It's a place you have to start. If you're going to keep them out you've got to start at the borders and it actually means starting, getting the neighbors of Iraq to do better on their side of the border, something we've been trying to do.

But in the end, the way you defeat terrorism is getting good intelligence about the terrorists beforehand and then killing them or capturing them before they attack.

HEMMER: There was a report back here in the U.S. at the "Washington Post" Mr. Pachachi saying that there was not a clear chain of command within the Iraqi forces. How would you asses Iraq's ability to defend itself come July 1st when the handover takes place?

ADNAN PACHACHI, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL: Well we hope to have a Minister of Defense established this near future and there will be a chain of command from the head of the government to the minister of defense and the military chiefs.

Of course, we will be relying to some extent on the multi- national force treating the coalition forces for some time because of the ongoing threat of Zarqawi's action and other terrorists.

HEMMER: Mr. Bremer, do you believe the Iraqi people are aware of what's happening today and what is their reaction that you've heard?

BREMER: Well, you know, if you look at the polls, the Iraqi people are very strongly in favor of democracy, the kind of freedoms that are in this in this wall. We certainly have a big job ahead of us bringing the public affairs program to all the Iraqis so they understand the details but in the broad sense they are very much in support of this kind of a document, I think.


HEMMER: Paul Bremer and Adnan Pachachi from earlier. We'll have live coverage of the signing ceremony in Baghdad that comes live at 8 a.m. eastern time next hour -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, Bill.

Americans are evenly divided between President Bush and Senator John Kerry, that's according to a new poll from the Associated Press.

But the survey also indicates that Ralph Nader could effect the outcome of the presidential election.

46 percent of those polled supported President Bush; Senator Kerry got 45 percent.

Six percent backed Nader, an independent candidate.

Nader took less than three percent of the vote back in the 2000 election but Mr. Bush's margin of victory in Florida and New Hampshire was slim, and if most of the Nader votes had gone to Al Gore, Al Gore would have won the election.

The Bush campaign showing no signs this morning of changing or ending its use of a political TV ad that show images of the 9/11 attack.

Some families of 9/11 victims and a firefighters unions that has endorsed Senator John Kerry for president accuse the Bush campaign of seeking political advantage from the tragedy.

Bush aides say there is no way to avoid discussing the impact the attacks had on the country and while the president didn't address the controversy on the campaign trail yesterday, he did talk about his 9/11 experience.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On September the 14th, 2001 I stood in the ruins of the Twin Towers. I'll never forget that day.

I remember the workers in their hard hats who were shouting whatever it takes. I remember the guy who pointed his finger at me and said don't let me down.

As we all did that day, these men and women searching through the rubble took it personally.


O'BRIEN: As everyone knows, Rudy Giuliani was the mayor of New York City when the World Trade Center Towers were attacked. He joins us this morning to share his reaction to the 9/11 images seen in those ads.

Nice to see you.


O'BRIEN: How are you doing?

GIULIANI: I'm doing great.

O'BRIEN: Excellent.

Let's talk about this strategy. Do you think it's backfired at all? The controversy that's come out of these ads in any way?

GIULIANI: I think that, you know, September 11th people -- people have very, very different emotional views about what I think -- the president is quite correct to point out that this is one of the challenges that he faced and in my opinion he faced in a really very, very superb way for this country.

It's hard for me to think of having had more support, more strength, more of a sense of purpose and having lived through it and being there with the president on September 14th and President Bush and Vice-President Cheney brought to this.

O'BRIEN: Politically, though, isn't there a risk when you have family members of victims, people who died in 9/11 who are saying pull the ad; take those clips out?

GIULIANI: Sure, you have both. And I guess I've learned about September 11 you have to let people react the way they want to react.

I mean people have very different reactions to this. Some families are opposed to it; some family members you know some quoted in the "Times" yesterday said they thought this was absolutely necessary for the president to raise this and make this part of this record.

People are going to judge this president even in history based on how he handled September 11th, 2001 -- that very day and long aftermath of it included the war on terrorism. So -- this was done in a very tasteful way.

It's an ad about a group of challenges the president has faced. The recession, other things and September 11, 2001. It almost not be able to do the ad and talk about the challenge if you couldn't mention the truth.

O'BRIEN: It would be weird some people have said to leave it out all together. I mean...

GIULIANI: It would actually -- if the president left it out it would look then some of his adversaries and those who are against him as in a democracy you always have would say he's leaving it out because he's embarrassed of his record.

And I mean this -- September 11th, 2001 effects all Americans in one way -- those of us who were there and those of us who were deeply effected by it as Americans. It effects us now, the president has to make this part of his record and you know his adversaries are making it part of the attack on him, aren't they?

O'BRIEN: As we mentioned, the firefighters union, excuse me, objects to this one second clip where you see a body being taken out of the rubble.

Do you think this was more of an issue of politics? This is a union that supports Senator Kerry or do you think that that's inappropriate since people have a very emotional feeling certainly about a body being taken out.

GIULIANI: It was a very tastefully done. It was done about a whole series of things it wasn't the focus -- nobody was identified -- I mean it -- my reaction to it would be it was done in a very sensitive way.

I realize that other people about this very emotional incident can react to it in very different ways and they're entitled to their reaction but I think overall the administration is correct to focus on the president's record including September 11.

It's one of -- it's one of the things that I believe will give him a very, very important place in our history as a great place the way he brought this country through the worst attack in our history and now that we're maybe you know a little while after it we've lost some of the impact of it.

America's never been attacked like this before. A lot of people felt in the first couple of days of that attack that we would be a -- our morale would be hurt and if coming to New York was a courageous thing to do. The Secret Service didn't want him to come; it was something that he did and it helped to really build our morale.

So when he pointed to his record if that's one of the three or four things that he mentions in light of all the criticism that's been leveled against him by his adversaries, it seems to me it's perfectly fair.

O'BRIEN: If the controversy and the criticism continues, do you think they should continue the -- consider pulling the ads, the Bush administration?

GIULIANI: I don't make the decisions for the campaign...

O'BRIEN: No, but as a guy in politics, I mean...

GIULIANI: I think it's been an appropriate thing to do, and I think that you know there are people who are sensitive about everything that happened here; everything is going to be criticized. This is about a legitimate as it gets.

O'BRIEN: Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Nice to see you; thanks for being with us and giving us your insight; appreciate it -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, in a moment here, intriguing questions from the jurors in the Martha Stewart matter.

Jeff Toobin breaks it down tells us what they might mean in a minute. O'BRIEN: Also a day of damaging testimony gets even worse for Jayson Williams in his manslaughter trial. We're going to talk to a former attorney for the NBA star.

HEMMER: And new pictures from Mars. They found proof of water but how long ago and the Rovers are still working today. We'll get to it ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING.


HEMMER: A woman convicted of murdering her husband by stabbing him 193 times now sentenced to 25 years in prison.

Susan Wright was crying as the sentence was read in court yesterday in Houston.

She claimed she killed her husband in self-defense but prosecutors say she only wanted to collect insurance money. She has admitted to the stabbing death and to burying her husband's body in the backyard -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Now to the Martha Stewart trial.

It's a waiting game right now for Stewart and her co-defendant Peter Bacanovic. The jury returns this morning for a third day of deliberations and CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin is going to join us.

You're going to be in there as well.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I will. Not in the jury room. No.

O'BRIEN: That would be illegal.

TOOBIN: I would then be in jail.

O'BRIEN: Yes, they'd kick you out; I'm pretty sure about that. Yesterday's action, as we say, started late because some of the jurors got actually stuck in the subway.

TOOBIN: They were stuck in the subway, it was four jurors didn't get there until about 11 so an hour later than usual, not quite a full day of deliberations.

O'BRIEN: Before the day was out, though, the jurors had requested some very specific information. What did they want to know?

TOOBIN: This is one smart and attentive jury. Basically, it related to the perjury count and only Bacanovic is charged with perjury, lying under oath.

You have to be -- there has to be evidence from two people -- there's a two witness rule in order to be convicted of perjury and they wanted to know is a witness and a document -- does that count as two witnesses? O'BRIEN: So the witness and then the same -- the document from the same witness.

TOOBIN: Produced by the same witness. Interesting legal question. The judge said as far as she could tell that did qualify -- sound like it met the two-witness rule but she sent the lawyers overnight to do legal research and she's going to answer the question this morning.

But the bottom line is that was a very bad note for Peter Bacanovic.

O'BRIEN: Why? I mean, they're obviously looking more closely at the perjury charge but why does that necessarily mean bad for him?

TOOBIN: Because she then sent the jury a note asking for clarification and then they said well we essentially have -- we believe Ann Armstrong -- Martha's secretary -- in a document she produced are the two witnesses. So they really seem to be far along in finding him guilty provided those two pieces of information are allowed to be considered by this judge.

O'BRIEN: If we fall on that theory that right now it's not looking necessarily so good for Peter Bacanovic, does that mean that he's so closely tied with Martha Stewart that then by nature it does not look good for Martha Stewart? She could be dragged down as well?

TOOBIN: Certainly it is more likely that if one is convicted, both will be convicted. But the judge said repeatedly you have to consider the evidence against them separately and I think we've all known from the beginning the case is stronger against Bacanovic than against Stewart, so we don't know for sure, but certainly the defense would prefer the defense of Stewart and Bacanovic that they were rejecting the whole case rather than considering convicting anybody of anything.

O'BRIEN: But you feel that they are starting with Peter Bacanovic maybe haven't gotten to thinking about Martha Stewart yet?

TOOBIN: Most of the notes, and there have been several really detailed notes, requesting evidence from the case, seem to focus on evidence against Bacanovic, although there is some overlap against the two of them.

So my guess is even though Friday is a very common day for verdicts -- jurors don't like to have this hanging over their head for the weekend -- I think we will not get a verdict today and that deliberations will go into next week.

O'BRIEN: They might still have a lot of work to do.

TOOBIN: They really do and they do appear to be very meticulous and since there have been so few questions directly related to Martha Stewart my sense is they haven't even started considering the case against her yet.

O'BRIEN: Well we will see how long it lasts. Jeff Toobin, as always, thanks.

TOOBIN: The waiting continues.

O'BRIEN: Good luck heading downtown and getting backing to that action -- Bill.

HEMMER: In a moment here a major employment report out today as the economy adding jobs or is it losing them.

We'll get to that with Andy -- and Jack's got a great question of the day.

It's Friday; back after this on AMERICAN MORNING.


HEMMER: All right -- major jobs report out today, plus a new nickel soon to be clinking in American purses and pockets all across the country.

Andy Serwer's MINDING YOUR BUSINESS on a Friday. Good morning to you.


HEMMER: Where do you want to start?

SERWER: Well let's talk about the jobs report.

Coming out at 8:30 it's really the only statistic that matters. That's why we keep talking about it. We're talking about the unemployment rate in February that will be reported this morning.

Economists looking for that rate to hold steady at 5.6 percent. There's the screen -- that's great.

We're also looking to add 125,000 jobs as opposed to 112,000 jobs last month.

That was a big disappointment, though, you may remember and the reason we're focused on this so much as opposed to inflation, the interest rates, the stock market, is because that has yet to recover and so you know Kerry and the president will be focusing on that as we get to November.

HEMMER: We talk about a jobless recovery; we'll see if it reverses itself.

The nickel huh? George Washington, a bit of a makeover, first time in how long?

SERWER: Thomas Jefferson.

HEMMER: Oh, that's right, what am I saying.

SERWER: Know your president's there. HEMMER: Oh, that wig in the back.

SERWER: I think he doesn't use nickels, I think it's only the bills. Right.

Anyway, don't take any wooden nickels.

Look at this. Got -- it's real. This is the new nickel, the first one in 66 years; it's redesigned, it has a new back. That would be the Lewis and Clark one. Here's the Louisiana Purchase one.

And Bill, you, of course, have no idea what used to be on the back of this nickel, obviously but it used to be Monticello. Thomas Jefferson's home in Charlottesville, but the front has Thomas Jefferson and it's still Thomas Jefferson.

Of course the nickel is kind of a misnomer because it's 75 percent copper. But, anyway, they'll be rolling out over the next couple of weeks.

HEMMER: So you've got Lewis and Clark.

SERWER: And...

HEMMER: The Louisiana Purchase, 1803. Got that for like two bucks, right, from the French?

SERWER: Yes, I think that's about -- well, no, a little bit more than that. A couple hundred million dollars. No, not that much.

HEMMER: Do we have time to do markets?

SERWER: Very quickly, yes, we had a mixed day yesterday and really the only thing that matters again is at 8:30 the futures will be waiting for that big -- we'll talk more about that later.

HEMMER: Good deal; thank you, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

HEMMER: All right.

O'BRIEN: Time for the question of the day and Jack.

CAFFERTY: Do we really -- do we need the new nickel? I mean, it's a nickel. We have a $500 billion deficit in this country and we're worrying about redesigning the nickel.

SERWER: Got to give something for the people at the Treasury to do, Jack.

CAFFERTY: I mean...


O'BRIEN: It feels lighter. SERWER: Yes, I thought that too, Soledad, but apparently it's the same composition.

CAFFERTY: It's a nickel.

SERWER: I don't know about that. Let's do a little investigating.

CAFFERTY: Earlier this week...

O'BRIEN: Sorry, bad throw.

CAFFERTY: Earlier this week, we brought you a story and actually it was in the "Cafferty Files" about a church in England that's having a competition among their members to come up with an eleventh commandment.

British Methodist Church. They printed up 250,000 fliers with slogans like stop war, reduce emissions, eat more donuts, don't give out your password. So we thought we'd borrow a page from them this morning and with tongue in cheek here's the question. If there were an eleventh commandment, what should it be?

And you can send us your thoughts and because it's Friday and it's been a busy week with the primaries and the gay marriage thing and Ralph Nader and the vice-presidential hunt and what's going on in Iraq and of course the redesign of the United States nickel...

SERWER: Though shall not redesign the nickel. That's what he wants.

CAFFERTY: Who cares? The old nickels are fine. They work.

SERWER: Go back to 1938 was when the last redesign was. 1938.


HEMMER: Remember (UNINTELLIGIBLE) came out with the golden dollar; everybody kept them.

CAFFERTY: Also the size of a quarter; it screwed up the coin operated machines.

SERWER: That was a pain in the neck.

CAFFERTY: There was nothing...

O'BRIEN: A lot of emotion about the change.


SERWER: ... cash registers.

CAFFERTY: ... two-dollar coin they came up -- I mean, this is...


SERWER: Treasury dollar bills.

HEMMER: We could go on and on and on.

CAFFERTY: ... in a week or so send us a list of the stupid things that have been done by the Treasury Department in regards to our currency and we'll have to do a four-hour show in stead of a three-hour show. Color-coded 20-dollar bills.

SERWER: Or the pink ones; he didn't like that at all.

CAFFERTY: Maybe we should abolish the Treasury Department and just...

O'BRIEN: Wow, from the nickel to abolishing the Treasury Department. In under two minutes. That's very impressive today.

Thank you, Jack.

Still to come this morning, the U.S. bringing more weapons into the hunt for Osama bin Laden; we're going to take you live to Afghanistan for details on the new tactics from one of the leaders in that effort. Stay with us, you're watching AMERICAN MORNING



Interview with Rudy Giuliani>

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