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Bush and Kerry Trade Jabs; Electronic Voting Put to Test in Florida

Aired March 8, 2004 - 18:00   ET


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: President Bush and Senator Kerry say unkind things about one another.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My opponent clearly has strong beliefs. They just don't last very long.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is radical. It is not conservative to run up deficits as far as the eye can see.

DOBBS: We'll have the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup opinion poll on the presidential campaign.

A critical test for electronic voting in Florida's primary tomorrow. Congressman Robert Wexler has sued in federal court to force the installation of printers on e-voting machines. Florida secretary of state, Glenda Hood, is our guest.

Protecting American jobs from overseas outsourcing. Senator Christopher Dodd joins me. And I'll be talking with two advocates of offshoring of American jobs, Bruce Josten of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Ed Yingling of the American Bankers Association.

And bodies for sale, the widening scandal over the sale of body parts from one of this country's top medical schools to large research companies.


ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, March 8. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

A new week for politics headlined by a new week of political polling. A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll finds Senator John Kerry leading President Bush. However, it also finds Americans sharply divided over candidates and just about every other issue in this campaign.

CNN political correspondent Bill Schneider has the report from Washington.


BUSH: Gentlemen, start your engines.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): And they're off. The early lead among likely voters goes to John Kerry by eight points. Let's see what happens if you throw Ralph Nader into the mix, even though he may not get on the ballot in every state. Nader gets 2 percent, at Kerry's expense. The race gets even closer.

Nader actually gets 5 percent among all registered voters. But most of them are unlikely to vote.

Want to see a picture of polarization? Here it is. Republicans are voting 95-3 for George W. Bush. Democrats are voting 95-3 for John Kerry. Wow. Coming out of the primaries, Democrats are just as united as Republicans.

KERRY: I believe that in 2004, one united Democratic Party, we can and we will win this election.

SCHNEIDER: The outcome is in the hands of swing voters, Independents who make up a quarter of the electorate. And they favor Kerry right now. He who controls the agenda controls the outcome. The public rates Kerry as better than Bush for handling health care, the deficit, Social Security, and the economy.

Domestic issues: the public rates Bush as better than Kerry for handling terrorism, Iraq, and world affairs. International issues -- here's a surprise. The two candidates are rated the same on taxes, despite President Bush's big tax cuts.

Here's another surprise. Bush has only a slight advantage on gay marriage, within the margin of error. There's no broad consensus behind the president's call for a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriages.

President Bush has been criticized for using images of 9/11 in his campaign ads. His response?

BUSH: Well, I will continue to speak about the effects of 9/11 on our country and my presidency.

SCHNEIDER: The people's response? Most say it's not appropriate for President Bush to use those images.

President Bush criticizing Kerry for flip-flopping on the issues.

BUSH: My opponent clearly has strong beliefs. They just don't last very long.

SCHNEIDER: The people's response? The public sees Kerry as more likely than Bush to change positions on issues for political reasons.


SCHNEIDER: And, Lou, the extraordinary thing about this poll in this election is how intense the feelings are about the election, which I think is a sign of how intense the feelings are out there about President Bush.

This poll shows that 83 percent of the voters say their minds are made up. They know exactly how they're going to vote eight months from now. Only 13 percent -- that's one voter in eight -- says they could even change their mind, a very small group of target voters, swing voters; 83 percent say they're not going to change their mind. I think what they are saying is, my mind is made up for now.

DOBBS: Well, Bill, that is the smallest undecided group I've ever seen in a poll this early in a campaign. How about you?

SCHNEIDER: That is about the smallest we've ever seen in this kind of campaign. They are a target group. And believe me, Lou, they are going to be targeted, bombarded with messages from both sides to try to get them to switch.

But lots of things can happen in the campaign. Events tend to drive the campaign as much as candidates and campaign strategies do.

DOBBS: And we're a long ways off, as they say.

Bill Schneider, thank you very much.


DOBBS: Tonight's poll question goes to the issue of that undecided vote in the upcoming presidential election. As Bill and I just discussed, some of us find it hard to believe that that many voters have already made up their minds this early in the election and that there are that few a number of voters who are undecided.

We'd like to hear if your mind is made up in tonight's poll here. The question: Have you made up your mind about who you will vote for in the presidential election this fall, yes or no? And we, of course, will be sharing the results of that as you cast your vote at

Well, President Bush today called Senator Kerry irresponsible on national security. President Bush took aim at Senator Kerry's 1995 proposal to cut intelligence spending. That proposal came just two years after the first attack on the World Trade Center.

White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president in Houston and joins us now with a report -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the stepped-up attacks that we first heard from the president last week got a lot more pointed and a lot more specific today.

The president seized on remarks by Senator Kerry that perhaps the fight against terrorism shouldn't be called a war because he thinks it's more of a law enforcement operation. The president said because of that kind of mentality, flawed mentality, he suggested, Senator Kerry proposed cutting funding for intelligence operations at a time when the United States should have been increasing funding for intelligence, because it was just two years after the bombing of the first World Trade Center in 1993.


BUSH: His bill was so deeply irresponsible that he didn't have a single co-sponsor in the United States Senate. Once again, Senator Kerry is trying to have it both ways. He's for good intelligence, yet he was willing to gut the intelligence services. And that is no way to lead a nation in a time of war.


BASH: Now, this intensified criticism of Senator Kerry, not just on his voting record, but also, as Bill was talking about, on his character, are all part of a strategy from the Bush campaign to try to knock him down as soon as possible, because they don't think that he got bloodied up enough during the Democratic primary process.

Now, the president made that speech at a Dallas fund-raiser. Between that one and one he will have here in Houston tonight, he will pull in about $3 million to his campaign for reelection. And of course, the state of Texas is not some place the president is very worried about as far as having it in his column come November. Nevertheless, he also attended just a short while ago a very important event to this date.

It is the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo. He went there, had a little bit of a photo-op, made a little bit of a quip that he thought that he had seen a lot of bull in Washington, but he certainly was seeing a lot more there. And, Lou, this particular event was billed as a policy event. That means that it is paid for by taxpayers, as opposed to the fund-raisers, which are paid for by the campaign -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much.

Senator Kerry today campaigned in Florida, ahead of its Democratic primary tomorrow. Senator Kerry told supporters he's talked with foreign leaders who Kerry says want him to beat President Bush. A Bush spokesman said Kerry's foreign friends might prefer him as president, but the American people will decide the election.

Senator Kerry today also criticized President Bush for failing to spend more time with the commission reviewing the September 11 attacks.


KERRY: If the president of the United States can find the time to go to a rodeo, he can find the time to do more than one hour in front of a commission that is investigating what happened to America's intelligence.


DOBBS: Senator Kerry today also addressed the rising concerns about electronic voting. The senator said all votes should be able to be traced and recounted if necessary.

Meanwhile, Florida's Congressman Robert Wexler today sued in federal court to force the installation of printers on touch-screen voting machines. Congressman Wexler said it's unconstitutional for counties with touch-screen voting machines to have a paperless system that makes it impossible to hold recounts.


REP. ROBERT WEXLER (D), FLORIDA: Why doesn't Governor Bush simply say, let's improve our Florida election system even more than we've done so, provide for certainty and provide for security, and in case something goes wrong, have a backup, and all Floridians, Republicans, Democrats, independents alike, can have confidence in our system?


DOBBS: And my guest tonight responsible for making certain every vote is counted in Florida's primary tomorrow and in the upcoming general election, of course.

Glenda Hood is the secretary of the state of Florida, joining us tonight from Tallahassee.

Good to have you with us.

GLENDA HOOD, FLORIDA SECRETARY OF STATE: Thank you, Lou. Good to be with you. Thank you.

DOBBS: More than nine million voters are expected tomorrow. You've heard Congressman Wexler's concerns, a broadening concern in this country about not only in your state, but e-voting across the country. How confident are you in the system that's in place in Florida tomorrow?

HOOD: Well, I have a high confidence level. And it's based on the fact that, since 2002, when we put new equipment in place in the state of Florida, that we have had no problem whatsoever, according to our 67 supervisors of elections.

So I have to go with my confidence based on what the supervisors have told me, based on the facts that they have reached out. They've informed their voters. They've educated their voters. They've trained their poll workers. They are ready for tomorrow. And we feel that we're going to continue to have that strong track record.

And, quite honestly, I believe that Congressman Wexler is doing a great disservice to those voters who have that strong confidence in the system and know that their vote counts and know that our track record has been strong since 2002. And we have been a leader in election form, thanks to our legislature.

DOBBS: Secretary Hood, let me ask you this. Is there uniformity now across all of the counties in Florida in this system? HOOD: We use two different kinds of voting machines. We use in 15 counties touch-screen machines and the rest of our counties use optiscan machines.

One of the things that, thanks to the election reform that our legislature has put in place, is we have uniformity as far as the way many things are done in our counties. And that has tremendously helped us. And that's why the voter confidence level has been high since 2002.

DOBBS: And the issue of paper trails for these machines, the optical scanning, all e-voting in your state and across the country, the ability to carry out a recount here, if we were to see a very narrow victory or loss for one of these candidates, are you prepared for a recount? What does the state do?

HOOD: Well, you know, the advantage of our touch-screen machines is that the voter intent is very clear. You can't overvote. Any undervotes are clearly the decision of the voter. That was their intent. And that was the intent of the legislature when they decided to ask that we go through the certification process and put touch- screen machines in place.

They do have the capability to print out audit receipts. And, quite honestly, technology continues to change. So we have no idea two and five and 10 years from now what kinds of technologies are going to be made available. But the fact of the matter is that today, there's no vendor that's presented any type of manufactured piece of equipment, a companion printer to go with those touch-screen machines for certification in the state of Florida.

The standards at the national level haven't even been developed. So, again, it's a great disservice to the voting public to say something when certainly something's not available to us at this time.

DOBBS: It does raise the question, Secretary Hood, as to why it would not be available in the event of a recount. And I'm not referring simply to your state, but across the country. And, obviously, this is one of the great concerns, that and the concern...

HOOD: I think we're going to see technology continue to evolve. And we, again, don't know what technology is going to be like in the future. But, right now, based on a positive track record, based on a high level of voter confidence since 2002, when our new equipment was put in place across the state of Florida, we are prepared, our 67 supervisors of elections are prepared, and we expect to have a very successful election tomorrow.

DOBBS: Well, Secretary of State Glenda Hood of the state of Florida, as you know, we will all be watching carefully and closely. You're going to have all the scrutiny that anyone could possibly want in your job. And, of course, we wish you and the people of Florida great luck and success with the system. Thank you for being here.

HOOD: Thank you, Lou. We look forward to continuing to talk with you. DOBBS: The president of Mexico says the United States should treat visitors from Mexico and Canada the same. Tonight, we'll have a special report on why there are some good reasons for the United States to perhaps treat Mexicans and Canadians very differently.

And Senator Christopher Dodd joins us. He'll be here to talk about his plan to protect American jobs from outsourcing to cheap overseas labor markets.

And I'll be talking with two leading advocates of overseas outsourcing of American jobs.

And Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, he threatens to cut off oil to this country. All of that and more still ahead.

Please stay with us.


DOBBS: Dramatic progress toward democracy in Iraq today, almost a year after the start of the war against Saddam Hussein.

Members of Iraq's Governing Council signed an interim constitution after weeks of discussion. The document includes a bill of rights and lays out the shape of a federal democratic government. But serious and perhaps insurmountable problems remain. Iraq's leading Shiite cleric has refused to endorse the constitution and insurgents continue to attack U.S. troops and Iraqi forces.

The general in charge of American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan has asked his troops to stay in the Army when they have the opportunity to reenlist. General John Abizaid, the head of Central Command, said he does not believe there will be a huge exodus of troops, but he said he wants to make sure experienced soldiers remain in the Army.

About 1,700 U.S. troops are in Haiti now. Today, the commander of U.S. forces in Haiti said Marines killed a gunman who attacked protesters in the capital of Port-au-Prince yesterday. It was the first time the Marines opened fire since they arrived on a peacekeeping mission there a week ago. Marines guarding the presidential palace returned fire after gunmen attacked a demonstration by thousands of opponents of the Aristide regime. No Marines were wounded. But the gunman killed at least six people, including a Spanish journalist.

In Venezuela, President Hugo Chavez has launched an astonishing attack against the United States. Chavez has threatened to cut off oil exports to this country and he again accused the American government of encouraging massive protests against his presidency.


DOBBS (voice-over): In Caracas, another weekend of protests against President Chavez. He warned the United States not to intervene. HUGO CHAVEZ, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): If this came to pass one day that an invasion force came to Venezuela, a 100- year WAR would ensue.

DOBBS: Chavez added, the United States could forget about Venezuelan oil if it were to invade. The United States has always denied any involvement in actions against Chavez; 10 percent of the oil imported into the United States comes from Venezuela.

JIM BURKHARD, CAMBRIDGE ENERGY RESEARCH: Venezuela is a key supplier of oil to the global oil market, in particular to the United States. If there were to be a cutoff in Venezuelan supplies to the United States, you could see oil prices move closer to $40 a barrel.


DOBBS: And, at the pump, the average price of one gallon of regular gasoline has now reached $1.74, 2 cents higher than last week.

Higher gasoline prices only one of the rising pressures against America's middle-class these days. As we reported here extensively, prices are climbing for everything from medical care to college tuition, while thousands of middle-class jobs are being shipped overseas. We wanted, in that spirit, to share with you a recent editorial cartoon that puts an interesting twist on an old campaign.

This whale is in favor of an action to save the middle class. And our thanks to syndicated cartoonist Bill Shore (ph) for sharing his work with us all.

Still ahead here, "Broken Borders." Mexican President Vicente Fox says Mexicans should be able to enter this country as freely as Canadians. But should they? Are there some major differences between the two countries? We'll have a report for you.

And Senator Christopher Dodd wrote legislation to keep American jobs in this country. He is our guest next. And we'll be talking with two leaders who are advocates of offshore outsourcing of American jobs. Bruce Josten of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Ed Yingling of the American Bankers Association join us.

Please stay with us.


DOBBS: President Bush agreed over the weekend to relax certain restrictions on an estimated seven million Mexicans who cross the border into this country. The president's concession came during a meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox at the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas. President Fox has pressed for Mexicans to have the same rights on our borders as Canadians.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Vicente Fox praised President Bush for making it easier on Mexicans to travel to the United States for short-term stays.

VICENTE FOX, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We appreciate what this will do to the flow of visitors, now that they will not have to be photographed or fingerprinted at the frontier for short visits to the United States.

SYLVESTER: Under the US-VISIT program, all other visitors from visa countries will be fingerprinted and photographed at the border by the end of the year, but not so for the seven million Mexicans with border crossing cards. Critics say the president's decision will leave a huge security hole at the Southern border because border crossing cards are easy to get.

WILLIAM BUCHANAN, AMERICAN COUNCIL FOR IMMIGRATION REFORM: They are for sale along the border. They could be cards that have been stolen. They could be cards that have been lost.

SYLVESTER: Business groups argue, without the exemption, there will be major backlogs at the border, which could slow commerce.

DAN GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: Let's not put up walls. We need to have doors in our walls with guards at the doors, but let's let people come and go freely.

SYLVESTER: Mexico's president says Canadian visitors can come and go freely. He wants the same for his citizens.

But there are differences between the two countries. There are 4.8 illegal Mexicans in the United States, compared to only 47,000 illegal Canadians, according to a 2000 INS study. And there's less economic incentive for Canadians to sneak into the United States. Canada's per capita gross domestic product is just over $29,000 a year, ninth in the world. In Mexico, it's less than $9,000 a year, ranking 82nd in the world.

And one more incentive for Canadians to return to their country, it has public health care for all its citizens.


SYLVESTER: Adding to the debate, some members of Congress say the authority to make any changes to the US-VISIT program rests with the legislative branch and not with the White House -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.

Members of Congress fighting back against the export of American jobs to those cheap overseas labor markets. Senator Christopher Dodd joins me. I'll be joined by two leading opponents of any legislation that would stop the outsourcing of American jobs overseas.

The United States has more cases of sexually transmitted disease than any other industrialized country. We'll have a special report for you on what is simply an epidemic.

And Martha Stewart faces an uncertain future. So does her multimillion-dollar brand. All of that and more still ahead here.


DOBBS: The U.S. Senate last week voted overwhelmingly to block the use of taxpayer money for the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. That measure, introduced by Senator Christopher Dodd of Connecticut, aims to keep companies and the government from using federal money to outsource American work overseas.

Senator Dodd joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.

Senator, good to have you here.


DOBBS: Congratulations on legislation that very few people a few months ago even thought would be possible to pass.

DODD: Thank you.

Well, I think it's a reflection of the mood in the country and the growing concern about this issue and the related job losses, the 2.8 million jobs we've lost in the manufacturing sector, and the massive increase in this outsourcing problem.

Just to give you one statistic, in the year 2000, there were 1,000 tax returns that were being compiled offshore. This year, the estimates are somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000. Needless to say, identity-theft-related problems are something that Americans ought to be concerned about. That's just an example of how the accelerated race of outsourcing is occurring.

DOBBS: And, in addition to medical records, financial records, all a host of privacy issues. And there, it's really unsettled as to whether or not corporate -- corporations have the right to be shipping that information overseas.

DODD: That's true. There are no protections that I know of, under U.S. law.

I serve on part of a panel dealing with privacy issues in this country. We've worked on efforts to give people the right to opt out if they want to, or opt in, in terms of that information, either financial records or medical records being used. One of the laws we passed overwhelmingly was to make sure that insurance companies and employers would not have access to vital information regarding DNA, for instance.

It seems now that information could be shared. I know of no law that would protect an American citizen if medical records are being processed offshore and someone could have access to them. DOBBS: The offshoring of that information, jobs themselves, 25 Republicans joined you in supporting this legislation, in passing it. Did that surprise you?

DODD: It did a bit. We provided some safeguards in the bill. People were concerned about whether or not we would have national security, waivers for national security. We provided for that in the bill.

We don't get into a trade war with other nations that allow us to have access to their government contracts, that -- to be able to compete for those contracts. So major countries like the People's Republic of China and India are certainly still included, because that's the major source of where outsourcing is occurring. So, we wrote safeguards in. And I think, once we got a vote on this, I think, again, it's a reflection of how people feel.

And let me quickly say to you, Lou, I'm a -- I've supported trade agreements over the years. This is not a protectionist or isolationist view at all. It just seems to me we're going to lose very important technologies, very important human capital if we don't do something soon to put the brakes on here. The pace of this is moving at such a rapid level that I'm very worried we may look back in a few years and realize we've given up tremendous efforts in our ability to produce goods and services that are critical for our security.

DOBBS: That concern is becoming increasingly shared around the country, as you know. Because in many of these instances, if not most, intellectual property, our knowledge base, as well as other factors of production, including factories and capital equipment, are being shipped overseas without any controls.

How concerned are you about the fact the federal government doesn't even know how many jobs or how many companies have been participating in this business practice?

DODD: Well, I think it's a reflection of sort of a laissez-faire attitude about this. It just doesn't make that much difference at all. I think certainly the theories of Mr. Adam Smith and Mr. Ricardo are being thrown out the window. I think what we're dealing with a structural one that occurs every generation or two, and you have to take that into account. If you disagree, than I suppose you might accept the attitude that some have. I don't. I think this is fundamentally different. And I think we have got to start responding to it. So instead of encouraging through our tax code people to pack up and leave, we ought to be doing everything we can to encourage them to stay here so that we'll have some products and services with which to compete in the 21st century global marketplace. Globalization of the economy is as certain as gravity, and I certainly support the direction we're heading in. But I want to make sure we can compete, and I'm worried if we don't do something soon we'll be limited in that capacity.

DOBBS: Senator Christopher Dodd, thank you for being here.

DODD: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: My next two guests have altogether different views on the "Exporting of America." They are both members of what is called a coalition for economic growth in American jobs, a group of some 200 trade groups that support offshore outsourcing. They are representative of partners in that coalition.

Bruce Josten is the executive vice president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce.

Ed Yingling is the executive vice president of the American Bankers Association.

And thank you both, gentlemen, for being with us here tonight.



DOBBS: Let me begin, Bruce, if I may with you. This coalition is formed to promote outsourcing, or to stop at least legislation at the state level or the federal that would curtail it. Why is it necessary?

JOSTEN: Well, I would couch it a little differently, Lou. I would say this coalition is formed to try to help Congress develop and enact the right policies along the lines Senator Dodd just said. If we're having structural economic adjustments, than it clearly it is time for Congress to recognize them and stop grafting elements to a tax law that dates back to the model T-car in this country. It's time for Congress to take a look at -- we ought to be concerned, for example, at 39 percent of all software in this country is stolen under intellectual property throughout the world. We lose $3 billion a year in intellectual property theft, in the movie industry alone. We're losing jobs every day due to some structural changes and globalization, and there's an awful lot Congress can and should do. And that's what we're trying to direct this coalition towards accomplishing.

DOBBS: Now, that's interesting, because in both of those instances, that isn't happening in Iowa or Minnesota, that's happening in international trade. And all of that is within the control and purview of our trade representatives. And negotiators. Let me turn, if I may, to you, Mr. Yingling. Why would the American Bankers Association be interested in offshoring work when we see -- and of course, across a disparate number of countries, and markets -- but when we're seeing the kind of intellectual property theft that we're seeing whether it be in the music industry, whether it be in movies, why would we want to be offshoring jobs to cheap foreign labor markets where we're also sending out intellectual capital knowledge base, and in many cases at least factories of production?

YINGLING: Well, Lou, I think it's important to note that in the financial services area, we're creating -- I know you care about net jobs -- we're creating net jobs in this country. We've created 1.3 million jobs in the last decade. And we're creating jobs right now. And we're a net exporter of financial services. We have the best firms in the world. We have great firms in Senator Dodd's home state of Connecticut. New York City is the financial capital of the world. And so as we look at what financial firms are doing, you have to take into account that as we open up markets, and we bring jobs back here to the headquarters, they naturally do expect us to have some jobs there. And so a lot of what you're seeing in the financial services industry is jobs that are a part of an international network.

But I do agree with Bruce, that one of the things we as an industry need to do, all industry, and part of this coalition, is to work on helping those that have lost their jobs, the American Bankers Association has trained in its history over 1 million people in the banking industry. But interestingly enough, right now, we're creating new jobs, but we've found a gap between the job openings and some of the skills that are out there. So our question has to be, what can we do at the American Bankers Association to help close that gap.

DOBBS: The Bankers Association has one of the -- one of the banking financial services center has one of the best records of training in the country of any industry. But Bruce, you laid out a proposition here that I wonder if we can't get some -- get something attached to. Because you started talking about structural changes. You heard Senator Dodd on his legislation.

Let me ask you quickly, is that a legislation you support?

JOSTEN: No, it wasn't, as a matter of fact.

DOBBS: Well, maybe we can do some idea arbitrage here then. The fact of the matter is, as I look up, I see the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers, American Bankers Association, all of you working in your own ways in support of the Republican Party and President Bush. You haven't created the jobs that he's been depending on for reelection. You haven't been investing in the country. You have been outsourcing, for whatever reason and I take...

JOSTEN: That's not true.

DOBBS: Tell you what, let me finish and I'll let you finish your thoughts, OK?

Fair deal?

JOSTEN: Fair deal.

DOBBS: And the fact of the matter is you're not serving the guy that you're supporting very well. And you're talking about structural changes, yet there should be an intellectual contest right now in this country over what's happening. Better data should be procured by both the government and by business. And an honest dialog about why this country can't put together a trade surplus in two decades. Why, with a relatively low comparative tax rate, American corporations haven't been able to achieve a trade surplus, and why that should be on the back of American labor to adjust -- you know, we always talk about a strong and resilient economy the American economy is, and it is that.

Why does that fall squarely on the back of labor to be resilient?

Why not have from business and from government, from this administration, from your organizations?

JOSTEN: I think we do. Let me try to go back and come forward. I know figures are available, Lou, for investments by corporate America 2002, it was over $1 trillion in the United States, compared to $138 billion worldwide. So clearly your first assumption is not correct. American business is investing here at home.

DOBBS: I'm sorry, what was the total figure for overseas?

JOSTEN: About $138 billion. Versus $1 trillion here domestically. American companies are investing here in their work force, they're investing in plant, they're investing in equipment, they are investing in remaking themselves to deal with a worldwide competitive globe that we have to deal with. If you talk to American business and Senator Dodd is trying to help us on a number of these issues, if you talk to manufacturers and recognize that if it's an energy intensive manufacturing, their number one issue today is reliable and affordable energy supplies. Chemicals are the number one commodity export for this country. We need a comprehensive energy bill. We're the only country in the world that imposes a tort tax, a transaction tax of about $233 billion on American business. senator Dodd is trying to help us and enact reforms in that area. No other country in the world has anything close to that.

DOBBS: I understand. And no other country in the world to whom we are shipping jobs has a quality of life provided its working men and women in this country.

JOSTEN: That's true.

DOBBS: Why should there be a tradeoff?


DOBBS: You're suggesting because there are hundreds of thousands of jobs being outsourced simply on the basis of wage price.

JOSTEN: Did you know there are hundreds of thousands of jobs outsourced, Lou?

DOBBS: Do, I know it. As reliably as...

JOSTEN: Do you have a reliable data source for that?

DOBBS: Actually, Bruce, we have the most reliable data source in the business.

It's ours. And the fact of the matter -- I'm sorry?

JOSTEN: Is it an estimate or an actual figure?

DOBBS: It's an actual estimate. How is that.

JOSTEN: It's an estimate.

DOBBS: Would you like to contravene with my estimate with your certain knowledge?

JOSTEN: I don't have knowledge. That's why I asked you.

DOBBS: But you represent the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, some of the biggest corporations in this country. It makes one wonder why we don't know how many jobs are being outsourced.

JOSTEN: That's one of the points that you raise that I do agree with, we do need to have better facts. We do need to have better information. You know better than I, just based upon your economic reporting, that our government has to revise its economic data points every month, every quarter.

DOBBS: Ed, you can...

JOSTEN: And two years ago, they revised GDP by two absolute percentage points.

DOBBS: And you at the Chamber can solve this in a heck of a hurry. YOU can send out one e-mail to all of your members and ask for their estimates on total jobs outsourced.

YINGLING: Well, part of the problem...


YINGLING: Part of the problem is it's hard to get a definition. Let me give you an example. We are working on a lot of state laws that, quite frankly, we think would be counterproductive not to mention would violate a lot of trade treaties. Here's an example. We have a state law that looks a little like Senator Dodd's amendment, although he took care of this problem at the Senate level. And it says that we cannot contract at the state level with somebody overseas.

Two days later I'm told, I get a call from the state university, and the state university says, we have a problem. Under your bill, at the state legislature, we cannot send our college students to campuses overseas because we have outsourced the training, the teaching by college professors overseas. And by the way, since we can't send our students overseas, they're not going to send their students to our campus next year. So one of the problems here is a lot more complicated than a lot of people think.

DOBBS: Well, it may be. But it seems to me like that would be, if you just adhered to our rather simple definition here, which is, if you replace an American job with a job in a foreign country, because of cheap foreign labor, that is, low wages as your primary consideration, which is precisely what Booz Allen, Mackenzie (ph), Accenture, and all the enablers, if you will, are doing for corporate America. It looks like a pretty straightforward definition. YINGLING: OK, Lou, so under your theory, we would amend it so it's all right to outsource if it's expensive, but it's not all right if it's cheap. I don't think that's a good deal for the taxpayers in that state.

DOBBS: When you find out that everybody's doing it for a 72 percent at least -- at least 72 percent cost savings, I'll take my chances. Because it's not going to be a quality issue, because the American worker is producing highly -- is the most highly productive worker in the world.

YINGLING: I agree with that. But the problem is, there's no clear definition of outsourcing. And a lot of times you can look at things and say, well, the company has put jobs over in another country, but it's part of their worldwide network. The bottom line is, are we creating net jobs in this country from what we're doing overseas.

DOBBS: In certain industries, I could argue perhaps that is -- I would certainly accept if that's the case. I find it difficult in some cases to, you know, to quite get there. But I would accept that, if the industry -- representatives said it were the case. But what I would really like with just the 30 seconds left from both of you, this coalition -- you know, the "India Times' today, by the way, reported that they came up with this organization, the Coalition for Economic Growth in American Jobs.

JOSTEN: Nonsense.

YINGLING: Pure nonsense.

DOBBS: I'm just telling you, that's what -- they were so excited about your group, that they took credit for it. I don't know, you may have already seen the report. But what I would like to understand is, if you agree that we need more data, that there is a problem, why in the world wouldn't you be sort of embracing the federal government, your representatives and senators and say, let's get honest and talk about this as a real problem, because real people are getting hurt here?

YINGLING: I think it's a good idea.

JOSTEN: I think it's a great idea. In fact what this coalition is recommending is that the Congress of the United States took a look at, what are the appropriate steps in workforce investment act and workforce investment boards and the host of training programs administered by federal and state governments, and trade adjustment assistance. Because the objective here ought to be to recognize that American corporations in fact compete globally. And what you didn't mention, Lou, is hundreds of other corporations, multi-national corporations from European and Asian countries and Latin American countries are all outsourcing. So what we are trying to do is we're trying to remake ourselves and we're trying to remake our workforce to make sure that we are the most competitive economy in the world, as you point out we are today. DOBBS: Well, what I said was, that if we're going to use competitiveness, and efficiency is code word for cheap labor we're not going to be the most competitive and we're not going to be very intellectually honest amongst ourselves. I'm delighted to hear you say that, Bruce. Ed, what would you think of a moratorium on the part of corporate America and outsourcing until you work out the details with Congress and academia, and sort out what's really happening here?

JOSTEN: I would rather see Congress pass tort reform, I'd rather see them...

DOBBS: NO, no, I know what you'd rather but what do you think about...

YINGLING: They'd have more impact on ensuring corporate America'S competitiveness and a moratorium that restricts and prohibits.

JOSTEN: Could we have a moratorium on politicians introducing bills at the state level that are counterproductive?

DOBBS: If you put a moratorium on outsourcing to cheap foreign labor markets, you would automatically achieve that, wouldn't you?

YINGLING: I don't know, I've never been able to make politicians be quiet.

DOBBS: Well...

JOSTEN: Senator Dodd's done a great job being quiet here the last couple of minutes.

DOBBS: Well, Senator Dodd hasn't been with us, I assure you. He would have been invited to join us. We're delighted you accepted our invitation to be with us. Bruce, Ed, thank you very much. Come back soon.

Up next, police at the University of California arrest two men suspected of selling body parts from UCLA's medical school.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These alleged crimes violate the trust of the donors, their families, and UCLA. We are deeply sorry.


DOBBS: We'll have the latest for you on this remarkable case.

And Martha Stewart thanks her fans after meeting with her parole officer. We'll tell you what could be in store for Martha, and for Martha's company. Stay with us.


DOBBS: Tonight an alarming trend threatening this country's health. According to the latest research as many as a third of all Americans will at some point in their life contract a sexually transmitted disease. Among young Americans the numbers are even higher. Bill Tucker reports tonight from the 2004 STD Prevention Conference in Philadelphia.


BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sex is the topic of the week in the City of Brotherly Love. 1,400 healthcare professionals are meeting in Philadelphia to talk about sex and some of its more disturbing consequences. There are 19 million new sexually transmitted infections every year. And half of those occur in people 15 through 24 years of age.

DR. JAMES ALLEN, PRESIDENT & CEO, AMERICAN SOCIAL HEALTH ASSN: The United States has the highest reported rate of sexually transmitted infections in the whole industrial world. And that's a real concern to us, because it suggests that people don't have the information, they don't have the knowledge to take the steps to protect themselves, to prevent transmission of infection.

TUCKER: The most commonly transmitted diseases are human papilloma virus and trichomoniasis and chlamydia. And these diseases share a set of characteristics. They don't always manifest any symptoms, yet they can have dramatic consequences such as infertility and increased rates of cervical cancer. And they affect a broad range of people.

DR. JONATHAN ZENILMAN, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN STD ASSN.: Many of us who treat these patients in the course of our clinical practice see patients from all walks of life ranging from drug users on the street to partners at very prestigious law firms.

TUCKER: There is some good news to report. Recent data suggests that sexual activity among teenagers is declining. And the rate of infection of genital herpes, a non-curable disease is on the decline as well. As of the rates of gonorrhea and syphilis, except among gay men.

DR. HILLARD WEINSTOCK, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: Although CDC does not collect syphilis data by sexual orientation, we estimate that more than 60 percent of syphilis cases in 2003 occurred among men who have sex with men.

TUCKER: In dollar terms, the cost of STDs are huge. The Centers for Disease Control estimate that we spend as much as $15.5 billion a year. The discussion of how to fight the problem is often mired in emotional debate.


TUCKER: In another industrialized country, sex and its potential consequences tend to be discussed more matter of factly, as are methods of prevention, Lou. For a lot of Americans, sex remains a taboo subject, and in many sex education courses, abstinence is the only course that is taught for prevention -- Lou. DOBBS: And how do these statistics compare with those in other countries?

TUCKER: We're well ahead of them in terms of teen pregnancy rates, in terms of age of first sexual activity, and obviously in terms of sexually transmitted diseases as well, Lou.

DOBBS: Ahead, by that you mean higher?

TUCKER: By -- higher, yes, I do.

DOBBS: OK. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.

When we continue, scandal at the University of California. Human organs from hundreds of bodies may have been sold for research.

Also, late developments today in Martha Stewart's company. We'll tell you what's next for Martha and likely for her company. Stay with us.


DOBBS: Tonight, the head of one of the country's top medical schools apologized for a widening scandal over the sale of human body parts for research. Dr. Gerald Levey, dean of the UCLA School of Medicine, also announced measures to ensure such practices do not occur again. Police have arrested two people so far. Authorities say the body parts were sold to medical research companies, and one report says as many as 800 bodies may have been involved.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. First, on the issue of broken borders, many of you writing in about the president's meeting with Vicente Fox over the weekend.

Connie O'Leery of Leesburg, Florida: "Lou, it seems quite obvious that Vicente Fox is not interested in improving and upgrading life in his own country. Instead he prefers to get handouts by sending his people here to work rather than having jobs for them in Mexico."

Gloria; Naples, Florida: "How very hypocritical. The Bush administration is vowing to protect our borders one minute, and then conceding to let illegal immigrants in the next. What happened to protecting us from terrorists who sneak through our borders?"

Vic of Ransomville, New York. "If President Fox is so worried about the treatment of his people, he should work to better his country so they will be able to find jobs there. Mexico is not the 51st state."

Edward Burke of Brandon, Florida: "Will the real president of the United States please stand up. Vicente Fox or George Bush."

We love hearing from you. E-mail us at

Martha Stewart will be stepping down from her company's board of directors. Sources tell us that the timing is not certain, but that she will be changing her relationship with the company known as Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia. Martha Stewart also resigned from the board of Revlon.

Up next here, we'll have the results of tonight's poll. First, a reminder to check our Web site for the complete list of what is now more than 400 companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. That's at We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.


DOBBS: Now the results of tonight's poll. Nothing wishy-washy about the audience of this broadcast. Ninety-five percent of you say you made up your mind about who you will vote for in the presidential election this fall. Five percent of you have not. That compares to 83 percent in the Gallup Poll.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow, George Colony of Forrester will be here, predicting millions of jobs lost to outsourcing. Also joining us, New York State Senator David Paterson, trying to stop the exporting of those jobs, and Congressman Robert Wexler, suing the federal government to make sure e-voting doesn't involve e-fraud.

For all of us here, good night from New York. Anderson Cooper is next.


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