Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Al Qaeda Suspected in Spain Terror Attack; Alleged Spy Arrested
Aired March 11, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, it's the worst terrorist attack since September 11, a rush-hour massacre in Spain, almost 200 people killed, more than 1,000 wounded. Al Qaeda is suspected.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We stand strongly with the people of Spain.
DOBBS: The FBI arrests a former congressional aide for allegedly spying for Saddam Hussein. How much damage did she do?
Business groups not only want to export your job. They want to bring in more foreign workers under a controversial visa program.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm hard-pressed to believe that, in 300 million people in the United States, we cannot find a qualified person to do the job.
DOBBS: Congressman David Dreier says critics of the export of American jobs are simply ridiculous. Columnist Jim Glassman calls me a table-thumping protectionist. I asked them to join me tonight for further discussion.
And in "Broken Borders," more illegal aliens captured in Arizona today, the same day former INS Special Agent Michael Cutler testified against the president's immigration proposals.
He's our guest tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, March 11. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, Spanish police are investigating a dramatic new lead after one of the worst terrorist attacks ever in Europe. Terrorists killed almost 200 commuters in Madrid in a series of bomb attacks on rush hour trains. More than 1,000 people were wounded. Police tonight say al Qaeda may well be responsible. Authorities said officers found a van containing detonators and an Arabic audiotape near Madrid.
Earlier, the Spanish government had blamed the Basque separatist group ETA.
Alessio Vinci reports now from Madrid -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou, from Madrid.
Well, these attacks were clearly planned to cause maximum damage and casualties. They were carried out at the height of the rush hour here in Madrid, near simultaneous explosions taking place on three different trains approaching Madrid. As you mentioned, the exact latest toll is 192 people killed and more than 1,400 injured.
As you mentioned, Spanish officials here almost immediately early this morning after the attacks blamed the Basque separatist group ETA for those attacks, primarily because they were expecting these attacks. There's an election coming up here on Sunday. And ETA had warned Spanish officials that it would carry out these attacks, also because some of the explosives used in those attacks is believed to be owned by ETA.
However, Spanish officials at this time are also investigating, exploring the possibility of Islamic militant attacks to these ties to these attacks, primarily because some tape with the verses of the Koran, as well as detonators, were found in a van that was stolen a while back just outside of Madrid.
And, also, an Arabic-language newspaper in London received an e- mail by a group believed to be linked to al Qaeda claiming responsibility. So basically it is too early to say at this point who is really behind this attack. There is no official claim of responsibility, but at this time Spanish officials and investigators are really trying to see all possibilities.
Now, meanwhile, here behind me, we are just outside the Madrid Airport. This is a conventional hall. It is here that Spanish officials have set up a makeshift morgue. And we understand so far more than 180 bodies have been brought here, including six boxes of human remains. Of course, now here, Spanish investigators and forensic experts are beginning the gruesome task of identifying some of the bodies.
We've seen some relatives of the victims arriving also here earlier today, a very daunting task. Some of the bodies really beyond recognition, so much, in fact, that Spanish officials have requested the assistance of Israeli forensic experts. And a team of three is expected to arrive here tomorrow to help out with the identification progress.
One last thing, Lou, families here also being given some psychological help, of course very difficult for them to cope with this dramatic attack -- back to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Alessio Vinci, reporting from Madrid.
Well, the fight against radical Islamist terrorists, of course, is global. CNN has learned that the U.S. military is now involved in a secret war against radical Islamist terrorists in North Africa, U.S. forces this week providing communications, intelligence and reconnaissance to troops from Chad. The Chad government today said its soldiers killed 43 radical Islamists in a battle near the border with Niger.
CNN senior correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you said, the Chad government made an announcement that they killed those 43 radical Islamic militants in that two days of fighting along the border with Niger.
But what the Chad government didn't say, but sources tell my colleague, CNN's Barbara Starr, is that Chad's Army had help from a small group of U.S. military forces. Sources say the help was limited to intelligence, communications and reconnaissance and that the U.S. troops were not directly involved in the combat. But that help included overflights from P-3 Orion jet, a Navy surveillance plane, that was able to provide critical intelligence that gave Chad's military a significant edge.
Now, the U.S. has not openly acknowledged the role of U.S. military forces in Chad. And the number of troops there said to be about 100. But officials tell CNN it's all part of a low-profile campaign to battle in a number of African countries against a group called the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat. That's, we're told, a hard-line Algerian Islamic group that recently pledged allegiance to al Qaeda.
Now, sources say that the Islamic militants were chased into Chad by Niger's military and then surrounded by forces from Chad's military, and again with help from the U.S. military, they were able to, they say, kill 43 of those people. Now, the Pentagon says publicly only that U.S. forces are in a number of African countries assisting in training, but doesn't acknowledge exactly what was going on here in Chad.
But, privately, Pentagon officials say this is all part of the quiet effort to battle Islamic militants wherever they are -- Lou.
DOBBS: And they are operating apparently in something like 30 countries around the world, and active engagements in which U.S. troops are involved. That was the last report that I had seen. Can you add anything to that, Jamie?
MCINTYRE: Well, no, I think that's about right. There are various levels in various countries.
And what the U.S. is finding is that if it can provide some really high-tech assistance and sometimes just advice and strategy to the local governments in these countries, such as in Chad, they can be pretty effective in battling these groups on their own.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent. More now on that secret war against radical Islamists, globally and particularly in North Africa. I'm joined now by General David Grange. It's good to have you with us.
The level of troops, U.S. troops, in Chad fighting, were you aware of their presence and their role there before?
RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Lou, I was aware of U.S. forces in many countries around the world, to include what Jamie McIntyre just stated in regions of Africa.
And it's a very prudent thing to do. We have the expertise. We have the military that is some of the best counterguerrilla, counterterrorist forces in the world, that provides advice to some of these other fledgling countries of military capabilities that are a lesser degree of prowess, and it nips it in the bud early. It gets rid of these bad guys early, up front.
DOBBS: The attacks, Chad reporting 43 radical Islamists killed in this exchange. Does the size of that engagement surprise you?
GRANGE: It does not. And I would venture to say there's probably other small groups throughout this sub-Sahara region in Africa operating.
But the ties to al Qaeda, this is an example of something to get early, so you don't have situations happen like in Madrid as an example, before they get a great foothold and can expand their operations.
DOBBS: These counterterrorist, counterinsurgent operations, how long have they been going on to your knowledge in North Africa, through the region?
GRANGE: Well, as long as I can remember. And they should be going on. And I think it's again very prudent that these preemptive actions, which may just be providing advice or some technical assistance for intelligence gathering, makes all the difference in the world to these type of militaries that are trying to take care of these problems in their countries.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: A former journalist, congressional press aide is tonight charged with spying for Iraq. Susan Lindauer appeared in court in Baltimore, Maryland, today.
Justice correspondent Kelli Arena reports -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Susan Lindauer is 41 years old. She is a U.S. citizen, as you said, a former journalist, a former Capitol Hill staffer, and according to prosecutors, a paid agent for the Iraqi Intelligence Service. She was taken into custody in Tacoma Park, Maryland, earlier today, all the while shouting at reporters declaring her innocence. Lindauer worked at "Fortune" magazine and "U.S. News & World Report," among other publications. And she worked for four members of Congress. But the indictment against her makes no mention of her congressional work.
The government alleges Lindauer met repeatedly with members of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, that she accepted payments of $10,000 for expenses and services. Prosecutors also say that she met with an undercover FBI agent and, following his instructions, left documents at dead-drop operations. The indictment also says that she tried to influence U.S. foreign policy by dropping off a letter at a U.S. official's home, saying that she had access to and contact with members of Saddam Hussein's regime.
Well, sources tell CNN that official was White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, who happens to be Lindauer's second cousin. Lou, as I said earlier, she says that she's innocent. Let's hear what she had to say earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LINDAUER, DEFENDANT: I'm an anti-war (INAUDIBLE) and I'm innocent. And I'm very proud. And I will very proudly stand by my achievements. I'm very proud of what I've done for this country for the good of the security of this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: Lindauer faces up to 25 years in prison if she is found guilty on all of the counts, Lou.
DOBBS: Kelli, there's no suggestion here that there was any contact between Lindauer and Chief of Staff Card, though?
ARENA: No, there was not. The White House actually said that Card was not home when she delivered that letter. And when he found out that she was there and had the letter, he immediately notified authorities, Lou.
DOBBS: Kelli, thank you very much -- Kelli Arena.
Still ahead here, the election campaign turns negative again, President Bush targeting John Kerry in a new wave of television and radio ads. Congressman David Dreier will be with us tonight. He says outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is a good idea. He's our guest.
And outrage tonight over the use of taxpayer dollars to hire foreign workers to help unemployed Americans with food stamps. We'll have that special report for you and a great deal more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: This just in to CNN.
The White House has received the withdrawal of the name of Tony Raimondo, a Nebraska businessman. He had been selected to be the manufacturing czar for the Commerce Department for the Bush administration. He withdrew after a day of postponements in announcing his appointment to that post.
We're going to go now to Suzanne Malveaux, White House correspondent, traveling with the president -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, sources say That the reason why this happen was, there were issues over the Senate confirmation hearings. There was some concern Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel wasn't consulted in the process.
But I can tell you, Lou, that, of course, there's this dust-up that occurred that was quite a concern to the Bush administration, what had happened before he was even announced that he was going to be the nominee for this manufacturing czar position. It was the Kerry camp, Senator Kerry's campaign, that put out a press release criticizing the president for his choice, pointing out the fact that this is a man who fired some 17 percent of his own work force -- he's a Nebraska businessman -- and that he built a plant out in China.
Now, while they say, administration sources say, that it is not the reason why he has withdrawn his name, clearly, this was going to be a problem for them, at the very least a distraction, when it comes to trying to put to rest some of the concerns about outsourcing with jobs and finding new manufacturing jobs for people here in the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
Is there any instinct there amongst the staff as to why he was appointed in the first place? This controversy has been brewing, his connection known, the fact that this White House, which has usually had a reputation until recently of being incredibly politically savvy, making this kind of appointment?
MALVEAUX: Well, as you know, of course, he agrees with the president's position, as well as the administration's position, when it comes to the outsourcing of jobs, that this is something that his own agenda is quite in line with the Bush administration when it comes to free and open trade. This is something that the president has been talking about quite aggressively over the last couple of days, because of some of these attacks that you've seen from Senator Kerry's camp.
This is not something they thought was going to be a problem or an issue. And, quite frankly, some of them tell us they were blindsided by the fact that the Kerry camp got this heads-up on the nomination to begin with and then started in on his record. And they thought ultimately in the end that it would be a distraction at the very least.
DOBBS: At the very least. Suzanne, the campaign, the Bush-Cheney campaign today launching its first television attack ads against Senator Kerry. What can you tell us about the ads?
MALVEAUX: Well, the ads, there are two of them, two television ads and one radio ad. And it's been very clear in the one that is marked 100 days that -- they call it a contrast ad. Some would call it a negative campaign ad.
Essentially, what it does is plays out the scenario of what they believe the presidency would be like under Senator Kerry for the first days. They bring up the fact that they believe that taxes would increase by $900 billion. They say they base that on the cost of a health care program. They also say that he would weaken the Patriot Act. And then they go on to say that he would have delayed action in Iraq without the approval of the United Nations.
The Kerry camp has responded this evening, saying they're starting their own Web site to debunk what they are calling the smears from the right-wing campaign. So, as you know, Lou, of course, this is going to get even uglier.
DOBBS: And I suppose that Senator Kerry can take some comfort from the fact that obviously they think he will be a very active president, suggesting that he could accomplish all of that in 100 days.
Suzanne, thank you very much -- Suzanne Malveaux.
It was today a brutal session on Wall Street, the Dow falling almost 170 points, the Nasdaq dropping 20. This market is in decline here. We can say that safely tonight.
Christine Romans is here with a report -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's the damage report, the Dow down almost 500 points in just four days. Today was the worst percentage decline since last May.
DOBBS: Say that again. In four days, how much?
ROMANS: Almost 500 points, and really good volume today, almost two billion shares. That's got people concerned that there's impetus behind the selling.
The Nasdaq is down 9 percent now from its peak. And it has been broad selling pretty much across the board for four days. You have folks scaling back their expectations for this economy for the first quarter, weak retail sales, weak job markets, big twin deficits starting to raise some concerns.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you. Christine will be back with us here later to report on China's unseen, but growing and profound impact on world markets and economies.
My next guest will give a speech next week on Capitol Hill defending American companies that outsource work outside this country. Congressman David Dreier says outrage over American jobs being lost to overseas cheap labor markets is simply unfounded.
Congressman Dreier joins us tonight from Washington.
Good to have you with us, Congressman.
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Always good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: The withdrawal by the president of Mr. Raimondo tonight as the manufacturing czar, your reaction?
DREIER: Well, this obviously was a decision that was made in concert with the White House. And Suzanne just reported it didn't have to do directly with the fact that, of 1,000 employees, he had 180 in China. I don't know all the details of it.
But this is a new position that's been established under Secretary Don Evans and I'm convinced they'll have someone there. I mean, I think, Lou, if you look at the issue of manufacturing jobs, we really actually are doing well in many areas. For example, we're right now in the midst of putting together -- we've had it completed and I hope the Congress will be able to vote before too long on an Australia free trade agreement.
Do you know that 93 percent of what the United States exports to Australia today are actually manufactured goods and, under this agreement, 99 percent of them will be able to go terror-free into Australia. So we actually are seeing some improvement. And, also, we've seen a tremendous increase in the number of computer software engineering jobs over the past few years.
And so I think that -- you know, I don't want to say this is much ado about nothing, but I think we've got to look at this issue and realize that we do still have a strong economy.
DOBBS: Let me just show you one chart, if I may, Congressman. If we could put up the chart on the lagging labor market in this recovery. And this is not going to be a surprise to you, but I would like to get your reaction to it, because the fact is, something unusual is going on.
The red chart you see there is the historical norm following any type of recovery, which I'm sure you're familiar with.
DREIER: Right.
DOBBS: The lower line, below the baseline, below zero, is the experience in job creation in this market. It is absolutely anomalous to anything we've seen in history. It is continuing. It is profound.
DREIER: Lou, I'll tell you, I think there are some important factors here.
Alan Greenspan in recent testimony before the Congress talked about the need for us to focus on education. The president has included $23 billion in his budget for job retraining. You know that every single one of us is concerned about the fact that any American who wants a job should have a job. The president says that with regularity. And I think that we can put into place real opportunity there.
Projections from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that by 2025 we're going to see a 12 million shortfall of people to fill skilled jobs. And so education is going to be critically important for us as we look to the future.
DOBBS: Congressman, I can't tell you how excited I am to hear you or the president or any government official say they're concerned about those folks without a job, because I haven't been hearing that concern expressed by a lot of people.
DREIER: You know, I have regularly, Lou. And I feel very strongly about it.
DOBBS: And I'm glad you do. And I appreciate that.
But the fact is, we have over 15 million people unemployed in this country. There's a lot of arrogance on this, if I may say this, Congressman, whether it be on the side of free trade blind to effects and unconcerned and seemingly indifferent that we've experienced in this country through Democratic administrations, as well as Republican.
What I can't understand and, frankly, on those who are very concerned, we don't know what's going on. I've talked with economist after economist, the most prominent minds in this country. Not one of them can say what is happening to job creation. What I don't understand is why there isn't more concern in Congress and the White House and say, let's get a hold of this. Let's come together and figure out what's coming and what's happening and what we can do about it.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Rather than this blind, you know, we're going to go this way with a policy and fight you on this.
DREIER: Well, let me just tell you why.
I happen to believe that free trade is fair trade. And let's look over the past couple of decades, because you've just talked about a number of things here. If you go back to 1984, when Walter Mondale was campaigning against Ronald Reagan for president, he said in his acceptance speech for the nomination, that 1984 was the worst trade year ever. We were going to, in fact, see a three million job -- loss of jobs, loss of three million jobs. And during those 20 years, we saw an increase of 40 million new jobs in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Congressman Dreier, I hate to interrupt you. We have to take this break. We'll come back and continue that thought.
DREIER: OK. Sure. I'm here.
DOBBS: And I look forward to hearing what you've got to say. And I apologize for the interruption.
DREIER: No problem.
DOBBS: We'll be right back with Congressman Dreier.
Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: I think it's fair to say Congressman Dreier and I have strongly held and resolute views on the subject which do not necessarily match.
The trade deficit, how concerned are you about it? We haven't been able to run a surplus in this country for more than 20 years.
DREIER: Well, let me tell you, it's such an interesting thing, because you regularly rail about the issue of the trade deficit.
And we need to look at what the trade deficit actually is. What it means is, the United States economy is strong enough, the consumers in this country are strong enough to be able to buy products from other countries throughout the world. That is a strength of ours. And if you look throughout history, when you have a trade surplus, our economy is, in fact, slowing down.
It's during the times that our economy is strongest that we actually have a trade deficit with the rest of the world. It means what we're able to buy vs. what the rest of the world is able to buy from us. And so I think it's very, very clear that our strength is in our ability to be able to have access to products from around the world. The world has access to our consumer market, by and large. And that helps the single mother who's trying to make ends meet by going to Kmart or Wal-Mart or Target to buy toys for her children, clothes for her children.
That improves the standard of living in his country. And so it's our strength that allows us to do that.
DOBBS: Congressman, that single mother could be any American.
The fact is, with that trade deficit, it means -- and the deficits we're running, it's over $3 trillion in accumulated trade debt. We're having to borrow foreign capital to buy foreign goods. And the pressure on our standard of living and the exporting of American jobs means that single mother or any one of us could be looking at some significant difficulty.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I want to just make one point. DREIER: But what country in the world has the highest standard of living, Lou?
DOBBS: The country who -- that I'm talking about that I want to maintain that for all Americans, and particularly the middle class.
DREIER: And one of the reasons we have it is that we're able to buy goods from around the world. I believe, again, as we spoke before...
DOBBS: Congressman
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... the American way is efficiency.
And a very prominent Democrat with whom I was speaking the other night, a Clinton Cabinet member, said that, while he's a loyal Democrat, he believes that any time a U.S. company does not vigorously pursue efficiency, they are doomed.
DOBBS: Well, we're going to take that up with...
DREIER: And that's exactly what's taking place here, because it benefits us.
DOBBS: It benefits some companies. It benefits...
DREIER: No, it benefits the consumer, Lou.
DOBBS: We're going to take that up with Jim Glassman, a friend of yours, a supporter of your viewpoint, in just a minute.
DREIER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: And I appreciate you being with us.
DREIER: Oh, you bet.
DOBBS: Trade deficits, however, in terms of surpluses, I would agree with you to this limit, when we're not importing capital in order to support the deficit. And that is the situation we find ourselves in.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You get the last 10 seconds.
DREIER: That free flow of goods, services and capital is beneficial to our economy, as well as to the rest of the world. Strengthening their economies will inure to our benefit, Lou. You gotta get it.
DOBBS: Congressman, same back at you.
DREIER: It's always fun. DOBBS: And it's good to have you with us.
DREIER: OK.
DOBBS: Come back and we will have another meeting of the minds.
DREIER: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Congressman David Dreier.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is simply part of free trade, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
The issue of exporting jobs is certainly complex and certainly sometimes confounding. Corporations working in their self-interests, as Congressman Dreier just said, to drive profits with lower wages is entirely rational within a narrow view point. While hundreds of thousands of workers in this country lose their jobs. That's the effect.
Incredibly those workers who have lost their jobs in this country to cheap overseas labor markets now may find themselves talking to workers in those foreign countries when they need help with their food stamps. 40 States and the District of Columbia are outsourcing their food stamp programs overseas. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's not hard to find outrage about tax dollars for federally funded welfare programs going offshore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm (EXPLETIVE DELETED) off that you would take the jobs out of the United States and give it to other people in other countries. Like I said, I'm unemployed. Give me the job.
KERRY KORPI, AMER. FEDERATION OF STATE, COUNTY & MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES: This was a program that's set up to help people who can't find a job. So, somebody's calling for help on food stamps and they're calling India. It's a cruel irony. If, instead, that job was located here in the United States, maybe there would be one less person who needed food stamps.
TUCKER: Most of those programs are managed by J.P. Morgan, and E-Funds and they offshore the work. A survey done by Stella Hopkins of the "Charlotte Observer" found that 40 states, plus the District of Columbia have food stamp help desks that use operators in other countries. Which creates another issue.
JODI HARAWITZ, COMMUNITY FOOD RESOURCE CENTER: Somebody who's being called, who's 6,000 miles away can't say well, how to get to the No. 4 train to get to a food stamp office. They can't tell them what a farmer's market is and that they can use their food stamps there.
TUCKER: For some bringing the jobs home is a simple equation.
LIZ FIGUEROA, (D) CALIFORNIA STATE SENATE: We would be assisting our economy if those jobs were held here in the United States.
TUCKER: Senator Figueroa has a bill pending to ban California tax dollars from going offshore. California is one of 23 states with such legislation pending.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: It's become apparent over the last several months that most, if not all state legislatures had no idea that portions of their food stamp help desks were located in other countries. And as awareness grows so do the state efforts at correcting the situation, Lou.
DOBBS: And hopefully soon. Bill Tucker, thank you.
My next guest has been one of the most outspoken critics reporting here on the exporting of America. James Glassman, columnist for the "Washington Post," of the American Enterprise Institute, says the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets is simply part of free trade. And he has called me a table thumping protectionist, among few other names. James Glassman is back with us tonight. Jim, good to have you here.
JAMES GLASSMAN, "WASHINGTON POST": Thank you. You would break this table because it's glass.
DOBBS: When I thump this it has to be very, very carefully done. A pleasure.
Let's start off with Congressman Dreier talking about his faith in this economy. We all share that. We all have great faith in the American way of life and preserving it. I mentioned to him, and I want to start with you, I have talked to some of the best-known economists in this country, for some time now, and not one of them can explain how we are failing to create jobs in this country economy.
GLASSMAN: We're having a very slow recovery on the jobs side, there's no doubt about that. And a lot of economists are baffled. There are different explanations. One is that it was a shallow recession and so forth. But it is not an explanation to say that it is because we are shipping jobs overseas. Because there are very few such jobs that are actually being outsourced. But it is a mystery.
But look, Lou, we're doing everything we can possibly do. We've got very stimulative monetary policy. Very stimulative fiscal policy with tax cuts, with spending and so forth.
So I think we're doing what we need to do, and we will start to see jobs. We have created 350,000 jobs in the last six months, according to the establishment survey and well over 2 million according to the household survey. DOBBS: Which, as you know, no economist is going to pay much attention to. Let's take a look at a chart here, if we may. If we have the chart on job creation, since the president came to office. If we could put this up. That's actually the lagging labor market which reflects another matter. I'd like to see the distinction between private and public sector jobs, that is government jobs and private sector if we have that. There it is. Now, since January 2001, Jim, can you see this all right?
GLASSMAN: Yes.
DOBBS: 3 million private sector jobs have been lost in that period of time. The job creation is, 731,000 government jobs. I mean that is a remarkable number.
GLASSMAN: I don't think it's a remarkable number. We are having a slow recovery of jobs. There's absolutely no doubt about it.
DOBBS: It's never happened in history.
GLASSMAN: What do you mean it's never happened in history. It never happened in history that we've declined in jobs? of course. Go back to 1981, '82.
DOBBS: I'd be glad to. You had job creation within 14 months of each one of those recoveries.
GLASSMAN: Lou, it's a concern I think we need to look at it. What bothers me, though -- what bothers me, really is this obsession with outsourcing. Because that is not the answer. That is not the reason this is happening.
I do think that a lot of the attacks on trade are beginning to have an effect, actually on the economy. I think you're selling America short. John Kerry is selling America short. Americans have always been able to compete. They've always been able to win. Look we had a challenge from the Japanese in the '60s. We met it. We succeeded. We're going to succeed now.
DOBBS: Well, you know, I'm one of those people who can still remember Lester Thurow (ph) holding up the model of Germany and Japan as the paradigms...
GLASSMAN: Exactly. Now people are holding up India, apparently we're scared of India.
DOBBS: I'm not scared of India.
GLASSMAN: I want to see India prosper. There's poor people there and it really tears my heart out, frankly. I spent a lot of time in Africa this past year. It really hurts. And we want them to prosper.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And we want the American middle class to prosper. And we want American jobs to be as preserved as possible against unfair threats. And let me ask you this, because you said that this is selling America short, because I'm certainly not selling America short. I believe in the American worker. I do believe in the American worker facing fairly competition. The fact is, the idea of outsourcing jobs overseas, and we're talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs here. I talked with one economist today...
GLASSMAN: As far as we know, Lou, the Forester study which seems to be the best is 3.3 million jobs through 2015, which is about 18,000 jobs a month. In the United States, as Alan Greenspan said, 1 million people leave work, leave their job every week, 400,000 of them fired. This is a very dynamic economy.
DOBBS: I'll buy dynamic. I'll buy resilient.
GLASSMAN: It's not outsourcing.
DOBBS: The fact of the matter is that the resiliency is a credit to the labor force, the working men and women of this country.
GLASSMAN: Absolutely.
DOBBS: And not to the fact that we can send jobs willy-nilly to any market that we want because it's simply cheaper.
GLASSMAN: No, no, no. Stop for a second. When it's cheaper, it means that companies make more money -- which they can then reinvest, and we get more jobs from that. If we start to tamper with this system in a serious way, you know, the last time this happened was 1929 with Smoot-Hawley and I'm quite serious. You're playing with fire here.
Seriously. We're getting lots of jobs being insourced into this country. Toyota employs 35,000 Americans right here. They're building an $800 million plant in San Antonio. This is what's going on. That you don't want to disrupt.
DOBBS: Have you ever heard that there should be tariffs?
GLASSMAN: I'm not quite sure exactly what your position is.
DOBBS: There's a reason for that.
GLASSMAN: But I think you want to try to restrain trade in certain ways.
DOBBS: I want to do one of two things. I want the United States policymakers to understand that balanced trade, that is the purview of the European Union, which is the privilege of the Chinese, our principal trading partners, there is no reason in the world why we should be financing it and putting that burden on future generations. And we run a terrible risk.
You talk about selling America short, the idea that this economy is a consumption economy designed to send its jobs overseas, to buy foreign goods, borrowing foreign capital and bankrupting the future for the middle class is nuts. GLASSMAN: I think you put your finger on what is the real problem which is as you said consumption economy. The reason that we have to depend on foreigners and especially central foreign banks this is a serious problem.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
GLASSMAN: Is that we don't save enough. Now, why is that? That's a complicated issue. A lot of it does have to do with taxes. But I think that's the issue. It's not sending our jobs overseas.
DOBBS: Well, the fact is I think that that's certainly part of it. I think the fact that we have are sending not only jobs, but intellectual capital overseas and we have policymakers refusing to take a look at it when we have more than 15 million people in this country who are either out of work, or discouraged or to the point that they are working...
GLASSMAN: Can I say unemployment, there are 8 million people unemployed. It's not 15. That's too many. But it's down from 9 million. It's not 15.
DOBBS: Including discouraged workers?
GLASSMAN: Discouraged workers are not counted -- you're using the same standard for a century now.
DOBBS: I'm sort of, even though I went to the same school you do, I'm still rooted in my country origins. There's still folks looking for work.
GLASSMAN: It's terrible that they are discouraged and we need to help those people.
DOBBS: Wouldn't it be nice to hear the president say that?
GLASSMAN: I think the president has been saying it. He's going to spend $23 billion, he proposes for training and retraining.
DOBBS: Yes. You want to tell me for what? What job should they be training for?
GLASSMAN: Well, I think for one thing, software engineers jobs are going to double by 2010 according to the Labor Department. One of the things about a dynamic economy is we don't know what the jobs are.
DOBBS: 25 percent of the training...
GLASSMAN: It's why you need to have continuing education to train. Absolutely.
DOBBS: We have reached a point where we have to agree to disagree. I think that we're getting closer and I'm delighted to hear you talking about the issues in terms of recognizing some of the other elements of the story. And I'm sure you're feeling better about my views. GLASSMAN: I feel terrific.
DOBBS: All right. Let's continue the discussion.
GLASSMAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in tonight's poll, do you believe shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is simply part of free trade? Yes or no.
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming up in the broadcast.
Next, H1-B Visa's, corporate America wants more of them. And the demand is coming from some amazingly surprising places, this just goes on. We'll have a special report.
And "Broken Borders." Another huge illegal alien bust near this countries border with Mexico. We'll be joined by former INS senior special agent, Michael Cutler who testified before Congress on the president's immigration proposal. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight a stunning twist in the battle over controversial visa programs, bringing more foreign workers to this country. Congress, under intense pressure from millions of concerned workers has scaled back the H1-B Visa program. Now with at least 8 million Americans looking for work, influential business leaders nonetheless are saying they still need more foreign workers to fill jobs.
Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With jobs shaping up as a huge election year issue business lobbies are running a long shot campaign of their own, pushing for permission to hire more foreign workers under the controversial H1-B Visa program. Under pressure from laid off Americans Congress scaled that program back dramatically from a peak of 195,000 visas per year to 65,000. But corporate America has already hit that limit this year and now wants a special exemption to hire foreign workers who were educated in the United States. A spokesman for the campaign says, "It is counter productive for the U.S. to train foreign scientist and engineers and then send them home to compete with American businesses." Another argument, shortages of American workers for some jobs, including math and science teachers, and some medical specialists. Advocates for American workers just aren't buying that.
PAUL RICCI, AMERICAN LABOR FIRST: We reject the notion altogether. There are plenty of people, like I said, that are part of my own organization that are looking for work now in all sorts of engineering and science fields, and they cannot find work.
PETE BENNETT, NOMOREH1B.COM: There are Ph.D.s, mathematics experts all over the place that have been displaced by this program or by the onslaught of outsourcing. There has to be a qualified worker. Maybe they might just have to pay for relocation and relocate them to some other part of the country. But it's about time they really looked hard inside the United States.
VILES: Now the lobbying group pushing for the exemptions includes Intel and Motorola. Until recently it called itself American Business for Legal Immigration but is rebranding itself as only a Washington lobby could, with the new name, quote "Compete America."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Now one of the more surprising aspects of this is the widespread use and recruitment of foreigners to teach in American public schools, particularly in big cities such as New York and Los Angeles, Which hire foreigners by the hundreds to teach math, sciences and languages -- Lou.
DOBBS: So, as Alan Greenspan is calling for education, it's a solution to the problem, the suggestion is that we need to bring in foreign teachers in order to get that education?
VILES: This is one area we should be training more Americans. We know we need them. We have a teacher shortage. We need Americans to fill these jobs.
DOBBS: Peter Viles, thank you.
When we continue, "Broken Borders," I'll be talking with a former special agent for the INS who testified before Congress today. We'll hear his thoughts. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Our next guest testified on Capitol Hill today on immigration, border security, saying President Bush's immigration proposals won't work because they don't provide resources needed to stop the flow of illegal aliens into this country.
Joining me now from Washington, D.C. Michael Cutler, former senior special agent for the INS, a fellow at The Center For Immigration Studies.
Mike, good to have you here.
MICHAEL CUTLER, FORMER SENIOR SPECIAL INS AGENT: Good to be here.
DOBBS: The basic issue of border security is it your sense that the committee you testified before today, the Congress, is ready to move ahead?
CUTLER: Well, I think they are. I think that what really concerns everybody is that we don't have enough resources to really deter the flow of illegal aliens into the United States. It's not just the border, they were looking to come up with another 200 plus agents to look for the something on the order of 400,000 aliens who've absconded within our borders. 80,000 of whom have serious criminal records. So they're talking about another 200 plus agents and the odds just don't work out.
DOBBS: You testified also about the desperate need for interior agents, Border Patrol, immigration officers to police the millions of illegal aliens in this country.
How much -- how much resources, how many people do you think are needed?
CUTLER: Well, it's hard to give you a hard figure. But I've made the analogy that we've got 38,000 cops patrolling New York streets, policing 8 million people, and that's why New York is one of the safest big cities. And we've got 2,000 INS agents policing a number of perhaps as high as 14 million illegal aliens scattered across the North American continent or a third of the north American continent. So the problem is we need many more agents so that there's a sense of integrity to the program. Right now an alien who crosses the border knows that he stands a very slim chance, if any at all, of being caught once he's here. It's the game of hide and seek but INS doesn't do a very good job of seeking, I'm afraid.
DOBBS: As a former agent and familiar with those who now serve in the border patrol and immigration, what has been the reaction to the president's concession to Vicente Fox over last weekend on exempting him from the U.S. Visit program?
CUTLER: I think we're all outraged. You know, as it is we have a visa waiver program where we're letting people into this country from 28 countries, where we're not properly screening these folks. Now we're also exempting those 28 nationals, or the people from those 28 countries from U.S. Visit, which is supposed to record photographs, fingerprints other biometrics to keep track of who's here. To now turn around and tell Mexico that we will allow a number of their people to come in to our country, and exempt them from this program, absolutely, is counterintuitive and makes no sense to any of us.
DOBBS: Mike Cutler, we thank you for being with us here.
Now for a look at some of your thoughts. First on exporting America. Paul Montini of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. "I never considered myself a protectionist but all things considered, I would rather live in a society that allows us to earn a wage worthy of a worker and a developed nation and not compete against third-world wages."
John Birchfiel of Cary, North Carolina. "What is wrong with this picture? We are running a record-high trade deficit, we have millions without jobs, yet we are exporting millions of jobs overseas and we are importing millions of illegal aliens for cheap labor. Where does it all end?"
Tom and Sue Haines of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. "Lou, the reason that famous economists and columnists are attacking you for your views is that you're doing something which terrifies them. You're mixing economics with common sense, something they seem to be incapable of doing."
Well, they just haven't thought about it yet. I'm sure they'll come around. We love hearing from you. E-mail us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up, China's unseen but profound impact on world markets. And in particular, the U.S. economy. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now a look at tonight's news in brief. Lawmakers in Boston today debated legislation that would ban gay marriage in the state of Massachusetts as hundreds protested outside. After failing to reach agreement last month the legislature returned to discuss an amendment that would ban gay marriage but allow civil unions.
Meanwhile the California supreme court today ordered a stop to gay marriages in San Francisco where marriage licenses have been issued to gay couples since last month.
The Internal Revenue Service put a spotlight on the rich last year. Audits of taxpayers earning $100,000 or more rose almost 25 percent. And turning to energy, gasoline prices nationwide are nearing all-time record highs. The national average for a gallon of gasoline $1.73. That's less than a penny short of the record.
An alarming new report tonight on China's growing appetite for oil and other commodities. That report sent crude oil prices rising today. Christine Romans is here.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The International Energy Agency jacked up its global demand forecast for oil solely because of China. Because of China's booming economy, construction sites, this economy is going to suck in almost 6 million barrels of oil a day. That's up 11 percent from last year. Double digit percentage gains expected for next year, too. Runaway growth in transportation, construction, all kinds of different industries. A lot of energy analysts say just get used to it.
Then you look at steel prices. Steel prices have been spiking, also, because of China. And now there are concerns that China is double ordering and hoarding steel.
DOBBS: Why isn't the administration at this point -- because these charges of hoarding now surfacing today, on this and a number of other commodities, as well, including copper -- why isn't the administration calling for hearings?
ROMANS: At this point the experts I've talked to say it's hard to prove so far and these are all new sorts of charges. But it is something that people in the industry say is a real concern because it can be, you know, can be really troubling down the road. China's boom is steel intensive. And a lot of folks say they're expecting that demand to continue. Prices have gone up 30 percent just this year.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. Up next we'll have the results of our poll. But first a reminder to check our website for the complete list of companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. CNN.com/lou. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. 12 percent of you say shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is simply part of free trade. Almost 90 percent of you, 88 percent, say no way. I agree with you. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Tomorrow here, Senate minority leader Tom Daschle talking about the battle in Congress over this very issue. The exporting of American jobs. And Chinese thieves stealing American technology. The Bush administration in this case refuse to help. That story tomorrow night. For all of us here, thanks for being with us. Good night from New York. Coming up next, as always, my cross town colleague, Anderson Cooper.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Arrested>
Aired March 11, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, it's the worst terrorist attack since September 11, a rush-hour massacre in Spain, almost 200 people killed, more than 1,000 wounded. Al Qaeda is suspected.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We stand strongly with the people of Spain.
DOBBS: The FBI arrests a former congressional aide for allegedly spying for Saddam Hussein. How much damage did she do?
Business groups not only want to export your job. They want to bring in more foreign workers under a controversial visa program.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm hard-pressed to believe that, in 300 million people in the United States, we cannot find a qualified person to do the job.
DOBBS: Congressman David Dreier says critics of the export of American jobs are simply ridiculous. Columnist Jim Glassman calls me a table-thumping protectionist. I asked them to join me tonight for further discussion.
And in "Broken Borders," more illegal aliens captured in Arizona today, the same day former INS Special Agent Michael Cutler testified against the president's immigration proposals.
He's our guest tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, March 11. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, Spanish police are investigating a dramatic new lead after one of the worst terrorist attacks ever in Europe. Terrorists killed almost 200 commuters in Madrid in a series of bomb attacks on rush hour trains. More than 1,000 people were wounded. Police tonight say al Qaeda may well be responsible. Authorities said officers found a van containing detonators and an Arabic audiotape near Madrid.
Earlier, the Spanish government had blamed the Basque separatist group ETA.
Alessio Vinci reports now from Madrid -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou, from Madrid.
Well, these attacks were clearly planned to cause maximum damage and casualties. They were carried out at the height of the rush hour here in Madrid, near simultaneous explosions taking place on three different trains approaching Madrid. As you mentioned, the exact latest toll is 192 people killed and more than 1,400 injured.
As you mentioned, Spanish officials here almost immediately early this morning after the attacks blamed the Basque separatist group ETA for those attacks, primarily because they were expecting these attacks. There's an election coming up here on Sunday. And ETA had warned Spanish officials that it would carry out these attacks, also because some of the explosives used in those attacks is believed to be owned by ETA.
However, Spanish officials at this time are also investigating, exploring the possibility of Islamic militant attacks to these ties to these attacks, primarily because some tape with the verses of the Koran, as well as detonators, were found in a van that was stolen a while back just outside of Madrid.
And, also, an Arabic-language newspaper in London received an e- mail by a group believed to be linked to al Qaeda claiming responsibility. So basically it is too early to say at this point who is really behind this attack. There is no official claim of responsibility, but at this time Spanish officials and investigators are really trying to see all possibilities.
Now, meanwhile, here behind me, we are just outside the Madrid Airport. This is a conventional hall. It is here that Spanish officials have set up a makeshift morgue. And we understand so far more than 180 bodies have been brought here, including six boxes of human remains. Of course, now here, Spanish investigators and forensic experts are beginning the gruesome task of identifying some of the bodies.
We've seen some relatives of the victims arriving also here earlier today, a very daunting task. Some of the bodies really beyond recognition, so much, in fact, that Spanish officials have requested the assistance of Israeli forensic experts. And a team of three is expected to arrive here tomorrow to help out with the identification progress.
One last thing, Lou, families here also being given some psychological help, of course very difficult for them to cope with this dramatic attack -- back to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Alessio Vinci, reporting from Madrid.
Well, the fight against radical Islamist terrorists, of course, is global. CNN has learned that the U.S. military is now involved in a secret war against radical Islamist terrorists in North Africa, U.S. forces this week providing communications, intelligence and reconnaissance to troops from Chad. The Chad government today said its soldiers killed 43 radical Islamists in a battle near the border with Niger.
CNN senior correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you said, the Chad government made an announcement that they killed those 43 radical Islamic militants in that two days of fighting along the border with Niger.
But what the Chad government didn't say, but sources tell my colleague, CNN's Barbara Starr, is that Chad's Army had help from a small group of U.S. military forces. Sources say the help was limited to intelligence, communications and reconnaissance and that the U.S. troops were not directly involved in the combat. But that help included overflights from P-3 Orion jet, a Navy surveillance plane, that was able to provide critical intelligence that gave Chad's military a significant edge.
Now, the U.S. has not openly acknowledged the role of U.S. military forces in Chad. And the number of troops there said to be about 100. But officials tell CNN it's all part of a low-profile campaign to battle in a number of African countries against a group called the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat. That's, we're told, a hard-line Algerian Islamic group that recently pledged allegiance to al Qaeda.
Now, sources say that the Islamic militants were chased into Chad by Niger's military and then surrounded by forces from Chad's military, and again with help from the U.S. military, they were able to, they say, kill 43 of those people. Now, the Pentagon says publicly only that U.S. forces are in a number of African countries assisting in training, but doesn't acknowledge exactly what was going on here in Chad.
But, privately, Pentagon officials say this is all part of the quiet effort to battle Islamic militants wherever they are -- Lou.
DOBBS: And they are operating apparently in something like 30 countries around the world, and active engagements in which U.S. troops are involved. That was the last report that I had seen. Can you add anything to that, Jamie?
MCINTYRE: Well, no, I think that's about right. There are various levels in various countries.
And what the U.S. is finding is that if it can provide some really high-tech assistance and sometimes just advice and strategy to the local governments in these countries, such as in Chad, they can be pretty effective in battling these groups on their own.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent. More now on that secret war against radical Islamists, globally and particularly in North Africa. I'm joined now by General David Grange. It's good to have you with us.
The level of troops, U.S. troops, in Chad fighting, were you aware of their presence and their role there before?
RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Lou, I was aware of U.S. forces in many countries around the world, to include what Jamie McIntyre just stated in regions of Africa.
And it's a very prudent thing to do. We have the expertise. We have the military that is some of the best counterguerrilla, counterterrorist forces in the world, that provides advice to some of these other fledgling countries of military capabilities that are a lesser degree of prowess, and it nips it in the bud early. It gets rid of these bad guys early, up front.
DOBBS: The attacks, Chad reporting 43 radical Islamists killed in this exchange. Does the size of that engagement surprise you?
GRANGE: It does not. And I would venture to say there's probably other small groups throughout this sub-Sahara region in Africa operating.
But the ties to al Qaeda, this is an example of something to get early, so you don't have situations happen like in Madrid as an example, before they get a great foothold and can expand their operations.
DOBBS: These counterterrorist, counterinsurgent operations, how long have they been going on to your knowledge in North Africa, through the region?
GRANGE: Well, as long as I can remember. And they should be going on. And I think it's again very prudent that these preemptive actions, which may just be providing advice or some technical assistance for intelligence gathering, makes all the difference in the world to these type of militaries that are trying to take care of these problems in their countries.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: A former journalist, congressional press aide is tonight charged with spying for Iraq. Susan Lindauer appeared in court in Baltimore, Maryland, today.
Justice correspondent Kelli Arena reports -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Susan Lindauer is 41 years old. She is a U.S. citizen, as you said, a former journalist, a former Capitol Hill staffer, and according to prosecutors, a paid agent for the Iraqi Intelligence Service. She was taken into custody in Tacoma Park, Maryland, earlier today, all the while shouting at reporters declaring her innocence. Lindauer worked at "Fortune" magazine and "U.S. News & World Report," among other publications. And she worked for four members of Congress. But the indictment against her makes no mention of her congressional work.
The government alleges Lindauer met repeatedly with members of the Iraqi Intelligence Service, that she accepted payments of $10,000 for expenses and services. Prosecutors also say that she met with an undercover FBI agent and, following his instructions, left documents at dead-drop operations. The indictment also says that she tried to influence U.S. foreign policy by dropping off a letter at a U.S. official's home, saying that she had access to and contact with members of Saddam Hussein's regime.
Well, sources tell CNN that official was White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card, who happens to be Lindauer's second cousin. Lou, as I said earlier, she says that she's innocent. Let's hear what she had to say earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LINDAUER, DEFENDANT: I'm an anti-war (INAUDIBLE) and I'm innocent. And I'm very proud. And I will very proudly stand by my achievements. I'm very proud of what I've done for this country for the good of the security of this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: Lindauer faces up to 25 years in prison if she is found guilty on all of the counts, Lou.
DOBBS: Kelli, there's no suggestion here that there was any contact between Lindauer and Chief of Staff Card, though?
ARENA: No, there was not. The White House actually said that Card was not home when she delivered that letter. And when he found out that she was there and had the letter, he immediately notified authorities, Lou.
DOBBS: Kelli, thank you very much -- Kelli Arena.
Still ahead here, the election campaign turns negative again, President Bush targeting John Kerry in a new wave of television and radio ads. Congressman David Dreier will be with us tonight. He says outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is a good idea. He's our guest.
And outrage tonight over the use of taxpayer dollars to hire foreign workers to help unemployed Americans with food stamps. We'll have that special report for you and a great deal more.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: This just in to CNN.
The White House has received the withdrawal of the name of Tony Raimondo, a Nebraska businessman. He had been selected to be the manufacturing czar for the Commerce Department for the Bush administration. He withdrew after a day of postponements in announcing his appointment to that post.
We're going to go now to Suzanne Malveaux, White House correspondent, traveling with the president -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, sources say That the reason why this happen was, there were issues over the Senate confirmation hearings. There was some concern Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel wasn't consulted in the process.
But I can tell you, Lou, that, of course, there's this dust-up that occurred that was quite a concern to the Bush administration, what had happened before he was even announced that he was going to be the nominee for this manufacturing czar position. It was the Kerry camp, Senator Kerry's campaign, that put out a press release criticizing the president for his choice, pointing out the fact that this is a man who fired some 17 percent of his own work force -- he's a Nebraska businessman -- and that he built a plant out in China.
Now, while they say, administration sources say, that it is not the reason why he has withdrawn his name, clearly, this was going to be a problem for them, at the very least a distraction, when it comes to trying to put to rest some of the concerns about outsourcing with jobs and finding new manufacturing jobs for people here in the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
Is there any instinct there amongst the staff as to why he was appointed in the first place? This controversy has been brewing, his connection known, the fact that this White House, which has usually had a reputation until recently of being incredibly politically savvy, making this kind of appointment?
MALVEAUX: Well, as you know, of course, he agrees with the president's position, as well as the administration's position, when it comes to the outsourcing of jobs, that this is something that his own agenda is quite in line with the Bush administration when it comes to free and open trade. This is something that the president has been talking about quite aggressively over the last couple of days, because of some of these attacks that you've seen from Senator Kerry's camp.
This is not something they thought was going to be a problem or an issue. And, quite frankly, some of them tell us they were blindsided by the fact that the Kerry camp got this heads-up on the nomination to begin with and then started in on his record. And they thought ultimately in the end that it would be a distraction at the very least.
DOBBS: At the very least. Suzanne, the campaign, the Bush-Cheney campaign today launching its first television attack ads against Senator Kerry. What can you tell us about the ads?
MALVEAUX: Well, the ads, there are two of them, two television ads and one radio ad. And it's been very clear in the one that is marked 100 days that -- they call it a contrast ad. Some would call it a negative campaign ad.
Essentially, what it does is plays out the scenario of what they believe the presidency would be like under Senator Kerry for the first days. They bring up the fact that they believe that taxes would increase by $900 billion. They say they base that on the cost of a health care program. They also say that he would weaken the Patriot Act. And then they go on to say that he would have delayed action in Iraq without the approval of the United Nations.
The Kerry camp has responded this evening, saying they're starting their own Web site to debunk what they are calling the smears from the right-wing campaign. So, as you know, Lou, of course, this is going to get even uglier.
DOBBS: And I suppose that Senator Kerry can take some comfort from the fact that obviously they think he will be a very active president, suggesting that he could accomplish all of that in 100 days.
Suzanne, thank you very much -- Suzanne Malveaux.
It was today a brutal session on Wall Street, the Dow falling almost 170 points, the Nasdaq dropping 20. This market is in decline here. We can say that safely tonight.
Christine Romans is here with a report -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here's the damage report, the Dow down almost 500 points in just four days. Today was the worst percentage decline since last May.
DOBBS: Say that again. In four days, how much?
ROMANS: Almost 500 points, and really good volume today, almost two billion shares. That's got people concerned that there's impetus behind the selling.
The Nasdaq is down 9 percent now from its peak. And it has been broad selling pretty much across the board for four days. You have folks scaling back their expectations for this economy for the first quarter, weak retail sales, weak job markets, big twin deficits starting to raise some concerns.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you. Christine will be back with us here later to report on China's unseen, but growing and profound impact on world markets and economies.
My next guest will give a speech next week on Capitol Hill defending American companies that outsource work outside this country. Congressman David Dreier says outrage over American jobs being lost to overseas cheap labor markets is simply unfounded.
Congressman Dreier joins us tonight from Washington.
Good to have you with us, Congressman.
REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Always good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: The withdrawal by the president of Mr. Raimondo tonight as the manufacturing czar, your reaction?
DREIER: Well, this obviously was a decision that was made in concert with the White House. And Suzanne just reported it didn't have to do directly with the fact that, of 1,000 employees, he had 180 in China. I don't know all the details of it.
But this is a new position that's been established under Secretary Don Evans and I'm convinced they'll have someone there. I mean, I think, Lou, if you look at the issue of manufacturing jobs, we really actually are doing well in many areas. For example, we're right now in the midst of putting together -- we've had it completed and I hope the Congress will be able to vote before too long on an Australia free trade agreement.
Do you know that 93 percent of what the United States exports to Australia today are actually manufactured goods and, under this agreement, 99 percent of them will be able to go terror-free into Australia. So we actually are seeing some improvement. And, also, we've seen a tremendous increase in the number of computer software engineering jobs over the past few years.
And so I think that -- you know, I don't want to say this is much ado about nothing, but I think we've got to look at this issue and realize that we do still have a strong economy.
DOBBS: Let me just show you one chart, if I may, Congressman. If we could put up the chart on the lagging labor market in this recovery. And this is not going to be a surprise to you, but I would like to get your reaction to it, because the fact is, something unusual is going on.
The red chart you see there is the historical norm following any type of recovery, which I'm sure you're familiar with.
DREIER: Right.
DOBBS: The lower line, below the baseline, below zero, is the experience in job creation in this market. It is absolutely anomalous to anything we've seen in history. It is continuing. It is profound.
DREIER: Lou, I'll tell you, I think there are some important factors here.
Alan Greenspan in recent testimony before the Congress talked about the need for us to focus on education. The president has included $23 billion in his budget for job retraining. You know that every single one of us is concerned about the fact that any American who wants a job should have a job. The president says that with regularity. And I think that we can put into place real opportunity there.
Projections from the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that by 2025 we're going to see a 12 million shortfall of people to fill skilled jobs. And so education is going to be critically important for us as we look to the future.
DOBBS: Congressman, I can't tell you how excited I am to hear you or the president or any government official say they're concerned about those folks without a job, because I haven't been hearing that concern expressed by a lot of people.
DREIER: You know, I have regularly, Lou. And I feel very strongly about it.
DOBBS: And I'm glad you do. And I appreciate that.
But the fact is, we have over 15 million people unemployed in this country. There's a lot of arrogance on this, if I may say this, Congressman, whether it be on the side of free trade blind to effects and unconcerned and seemingly indifferent that we've experienced in this country through Democratic administrations, as well as Republican.
What I can't understand and, frankly, on those who are very concerned, we don't know what's going on. I've talked with economist after economist, the most prominent minds in this country. Not one of them can say what is happening to job creation. What I don't understand is why there isn't more concern in Congress and the White House and say, let's get a hold of this. Let's come together and figure out what's coming and what's happening and what we can do about it.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Rather than this blind, you know, we're going to go this way with a policy and fight you on this.
DREIER: Well, let me just tell you why.
I happen to believe that free trade is fair trade. And let's look over the past couple of decades, because you've just talked about a number of things here. If you go back to 1984, when Walter Mondale was campaigning against Ronald Reagan for president, he said in his acceptance speech for the nomination, that 1984 was the worst trade year ever. We were going to, in fact, see a three million job -- loss of jobs, loss of three million jobs. And during those 20 years, we saw an increase of 40 million new jobs in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Congressman Dreier, I hate to interrupt you. We have to take this break. We'll come back and continue that thought.
DREIER: OK. Sure. I'm here.
DOBBS: And I look forward to hearing what you've got to say. And I apologize for the interruption.
DREIER: No problem.
DOBBS: We'll be right back with Congressman Dreier.
Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: I think it's fair to say Congressman Dreier and I have strongly held and resolute views on the subject which do not necessarily match.
The trade deficit, how concerned are you about it? We haven't been able to run a surplus in this country for more than 20 years.
DREIER: Well, let me tell you, it's such an interesting thing, because you regularly rail about the issue of the trade deficit.
And we need to look at what the trade deficit actually is. What it means is, the United States economy is strong enough, the consumers in this country are strong enough to be able to buy products from other countries throughout the world. That is a strength of ours. And if you look throughout history, when you have a trade surplus, our economy is, in fact, slowing down.
It's during the times that our economy is strongest that we actually have a trade deficit with the rest of the world. It means what we're able to buy vs. what the rest of the world is able to buy from us. And so I think it's very, very clear that our strength is in our ability to be able to have access to products from around the world. The world has access to our consumer market, by and large. And that helps the single mother who's trying to make ends meet by going to Kmart or Wal-Mart or Target to buy toys for her children, clothes for her children.
That improves the standard of living in his country. And so it's our strength that allows us to do that.
DOBBS: Congressman, that single mother could be any American.
The fact is, with that trade deficit, it means -- and the deficits we're running, it's over $3 trillion in accumulated trade debt. We're having to borrow foreign capital to buy foreign goods. And the pressure on our standard of living and the exporting of American jobs means that single mother or any one of us could be looking at some significant difficulty.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I want to just make one point. DREIER: But what country in the world has the highest standard of living, Lou?
DOBBS: The country who -- that I'm talking about that I want to maintain that for all Americans, and particularly the middle class.
DREIER: And one of the reasons we have it is that we're able to buy goods from around the world. I believe, again, as we spoke before...
DOBBS: Congressman
(CROSSTALK)
DREIER: ... the American way is efficiency.
And a very prominent Democrat with whom I was speaking the other night, a Clinton Cabinet member, said that, while he's a loyal Democrat, he believes that any time a U.S. company does not vigorously pursue efficiency, they are doomed.
DOBBS: Well, we're going to take that up with...
DREIER: And that's exactly what's taking place here, because it benefits us.
DOBBS: It benefits some companies. It benefits...
DREIER: No, it benefits the consumer, Lou.
DOBBS: We're going to take that up with Jim Glassman, a friend of yours, a supporter of your viewpoint, in just a minute.
DREIER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: And I appreciate you being with us.
DREIER: Oh, you bet.
DOBBS: Trade deficits, however, in terms of surpluses, I would agree with you to this limit, when we're not importing capital in order to support the deficit. And that is the situation we find ourselves in.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You get the last 10 seconds.
DREIER: That free flow of goods, services and capital is beneficial to our economy, as well as to the rest of the world. Strengthening their economies will inure to our benefit, Lou. You gotta get it.
DOBBS: Congressman, same back at you.
DREIER: It's always fun. DOBBS: And it's good to have you with us.
DREIER: OK.
DOBBS: Come back and we will have another meeting of the minds.
DREIER: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Congressman David Dreier.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is simply part of free trade, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
The issue of exporting jobs is certainly complex and certainly sometimes confounding. Corporations working in their self-interests, as Congressman Dreier just said, to drive profits with lower wages is entirely rational within a narrow view point. While hundreds of thousands of workers in this country lose their jobs. That's the effect.
Incredibly those workers who have lost their jobs in this country to cheap overseas labor markets now may find themselves talking to workers in those foreign countries when they need help with their food stamps. 40 States and the District of Columbia are outsourcing their food stamp programs overseas. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's not hard to find outrage about tax dollars for federally funded welfare programs going offshore.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm (EXPLETIVE DELETED) off that you would take the jobs out of the United States and give it to other people in other countries. Like I said, I'm unemployed. Give me the job.
KERRY KORPI, AMER. FEDERATION OF STATE, COUNTY & MUNICIPAL EMPLOYEES: This was a program that's set up to help people who can't find a job. So, somebody's calling for help on food stamps and they're calling India. It's a cruel irony. If, instead, that job was located here in the United States, maybe there would be one less person who needed food stamps.
TUCKER: Most of those programs are managed by J.P. Morgan, and E-Funds and they offshore the work. A survey done by Stella Hopkins of the "Charlotte Observer" found that 40 states, plus the District of Columbia have food stamp help desks that use operators in other countries. Which creates another issue.
JODI HARAWITZ, COMMUNITY FOOD RESOURCE CENTER: Somebody who's being called, who's 6,000 miles away can't say well, how to get to the No. 4 train to get to a food stamp office. They can't tell them what a farmer's market is and that they can use their food stamps there.
TUCKER: For some bringing the jobs home is a simple equation.
LIZ FIGUEROA, (D) CALIFORNIA STATE SENATE: We would be assisting our economy if those jobs were held here in the United States.
TUCKER: Senator Figueroa has a bill pending to ban California tax dollars from going offshore. California is one of 23 states with such legislation pending.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: It's become apparent over the last several months that most, if not all state legislatures had no idea that portions of their food stamp help desks were located in other countries. And as awareness grows so do the state efforts at correcting the situation, Lou.
DOBBS: And hopefully soon. Bill Tucker, thank you.
My next guest has been one of the most outspoken critics reporting here on the exporting of America. James Glassman, columnist for the "Washington Post," of the American Enterprise Institute, says the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets is simply part of free trade. And he has called me a table thumping protectionist, among few other names. James Glassman is back with us tonight. Jim, good to have you here.
JAMES GLASSMAN, "WASHINGTON POST": Thank you. You would break this table because it's glass.
DOBBS: When I thump this it has to be very, very carefully done. A pleasure.
Let's start off with Congressman Dreier talking about his faith in this economy. We all share that. We all have great faith in the American way of life and preserving it. I mentioned to him, and I want to start with you, I have talked to some of the best-known economists in this country, for some time now, and not one of them can explain how we are failing to create jobs in this country economy.
GLASSMAN: We're having a very slow recovery on the jobs side, there's no doubt about that. And a lot of economists are baffled. There are different explanations. One is that it was a shallow recession and so forth. But it is not an explanation to say that it is because we are shipping jobs overseas. Because there are very few such jobs that are actually being outsourced. But it is a mystery.
But look, Lou, we're doing everything we can possibly do. We've got very stimulative monetary policy. Very stimulative fiscal policy with tax cuts, with spending and so forth.
So I think we're doing what we need to do, and we will start to see jobs. We have created 350,000 jobs in the last six months, according to the establishment survey and well over 2 million according to the household survey. DOBBS: Which, as you know, no economist is going to pay much attention to. Let's take a look at a chart here, if we may. If we have the chart on job creation, since the president came to office. If we could put this up. That's actually the lagging labor market which reflects another matter. I'd like to see the distinction between private and public sector jobs, that is government jobs and private sector if we have that. There it is. Now, since January 2001, Jim, can you see this all right?
GLASSMAN: Yes.
DOBBS: 3 million private sector jobs have been lost in that period of time. The job creation is, 731,000 government jobs. I mean that is a remarkable number.
GLASSMAN: I don't think it's a remarkable number. We are having a slow recovery of jobs. There's absolutely no doubt about it.
DOBBS: It's never happened in history.
GLASSMAN: What do you mean it's never happened in history. It never happened in history that we've declined in jobs? of course. Go back to 1981, '82.
DOBBS: I'd be glad to. You had job creation within 14 months of each one of those recoveries.
GLASSMAN: Lou, it's a concern I think we need to look at it. What bothers me, though -- what bothers me, really is this obsession with outsourcing. Because that is not the answer. That is not the reason this is happening.
I do think that a lot of the attacks on trade are beginning to have an effect, actually on the economy. I think you're selling America short. John Kerry is selling America short. Americans have always been able to compete. They've always been able to win. Look we had a challenge from the Japanese in the '60s. We met it. We succeeded. We're going to succeed now.
DOBBS: Well, you know, I'm one of those people who can still remember Lester Thurow (ph) holding up the model of Germany and Japan as the paradigms...
GLASSMAN: Exactly. Now people are holding up India, apparently we're scared of India.
DOBBS: I'm not scared of India.
GLASSMAN: I want to see India prosper. There's poor people there and it really tears my heart out, frankly. I spent a lot of time in Africa this past year. It really hurts. And we want them to prosper.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And we want the American middle class to prosper. And we want American jobs to be as preserved as possible against unfair threats. And let me ask you this, because you said that this is selling America short, because I'm certainly not selling America short. I believe in the American worker. I do believe in the American worker facing fairly competition. The fact is, the idea of outsourcing jobs overseas, and we're talking about hundreds of thousands of jobs here. I talked with one economist today...
GLASSMAN: As far as we know, Lou, the Forester study which seems to be the best is 3.3 million jobs through 2015, which is about 18,000 jobs a month. In the United States, as Alan Greenspan said, 1 million people leave work, leave their job every week, 400,000 of them fired. This is a very dynamic economy.
DOBBS: I'll buy dynamic. I'll buy resilient.
GLASSMAN: It's not outsourcing.
DOBBS: The fact of the matter is that the resiliency is a credit to the labor force, the working men and women of this country.
GLASSMAN: Absolutely.
DOBBS: And not to the fact that we can send jobs willy-nilly to any market that we want because it's simply cheaper.
GLASSMAN: No, no, no. Stop for a second. When it's cheaper, it means that companies make more money -- which they can then reinvest, and we get more jobs from that. If we start to tamper with this system in a serious way, you know, the last time this happened was 1929 with Smoot-Hawley and I'm quite serious. You're playing with fire here.
Seriously. We're getting lots of jobs being insourced into this country. Toyota employs 35,000 Americans right here. They're building an $800 million plant in San Antonio. This is what's going on. That you don't want to disrupt.
DOBBS: Have you ever heard that there should be tariffs?
GLASSMAN: I'm not quite sure exactly what your position is.
DOBBS: There's a reason for that.
GLASSMAN: But I think you want to try to restrain trade in certain ways.
DOBBS: I want to do one of two things. I want the United States policymakers to understand that balanced trade, that is the purview of the European Union, which is the privilege of the Chinese, our principal trading partners, there is no reason in the world why we should be financing it and putting that burden on future generations. And we run a terrible risk.
You talk about selling America short, the idea that this economy is a consumption economy designed to send its jobs overseas, to buy foreign goods, borrowing foreign capital and bankrupting the future for the middle class is nuts. GLASSMAN: I think you put your finger on what is the real problem which is as you said consumption economy. The reason that we have to depend on foreigners and especially central foreign banks this is a serious problem.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
GLASSMAN: Is that we don't save enough. Now, why is that? That's a complicated issue. A lot of it does have to do with taxes. But I think that's the issue. It's not sending our jobs overseas.
DOBBS: Well, the fact is I think that that's certainly part of it. I think the fact that we have are sending not only jobs, but intellectual capital overseas and we have policymakers refusing to take a look at it when we have more than 15 million people in this country who are either out of work, or discouraged or to the point that they are working...
GLASSMAN: Can I say unemployment, there are 8 million people unemployed. It's not 15. That's too many. But it's down from 9 million. It's not 15.
DOBBS: Including discouraged workers?
GLASSMAN: Discouraged workers are not counted -- you're using the same standard for a century now.
DOBBS: I'm sort of, even though I went to the same school you do, I'm still rooted in my country origins. There's still folks looking for work.
GLASSMAN: It's terrible that they are discouraged and we need to help those people.
DOBBS: Wouldn't it be nice to hear the president say that?
GLASSMAN: I think the president has been saying it. He's going to spend $23 billion, he proposes for training and retraining.
DOBBS: Yes. You want to tell me for what? What job should they be training for?
GLASSMAN: Well, I think for one thing, software engineers jobs are going to double by 2010 according to the Labor Department. One of the things about a dynamic economy is we don't know what the jobs are.
DOBBS: 25 percent of the training...
GLASSMAN: It's why you need to have continuing education to train. Absolutely.
DOBBS: We have reached a point where we have to agree to disagree. I think that we're getting closer and I'm delighted to hear you talking about the issues in terms of recognizing some of the other elements of the story. And I'm sure you're feeling better about my views. GLASSMAN: I feel terrific.
DOBBS: All right. Let's continue the discussion.
GLASSMAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in tonight's poll, do you believe shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is simply part of free trade? Yes or no.
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming up in the broadcast.
Next, H1-B Visa's, corporate America wants more of them. And the demand is coming from some amazingly surprising places, this just goes on. We'll have a special report.
And "Broken Borders." Another huge illegal alien bust near this countries border with Mexico. We'll be joined by former INS senior special agent, Michael Cutler who testified before Congress on the president's immigration proposal. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight a stunning twist in the battle over controversial visa programs, bringing more foreign workers to this country. Congress, under intense pressure from millions of concerned workers has scaled back the H1-B Visa program. Now with at least 8 million Americans looking for work, influential business leaders nonetheless are saying they still need more foreign workers to fill jobs.
Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With jobs shaping up as a huge election year issue business lobbies are running a long shot campaign of their own, pushing for permission to hire more foreign workers under the controversial H1-B Visa program. Under pressure from laid off Americans Congress scaled that program back dramatically from a peak of 195,000 visas per year to 65,000. But corporate America has already hit that limit this year and now wants a special exemption to hire foreign workers who were educated in the United States. A spokesman for the campaign says, "It is counter productive for the U.S. to train foreign scientist and engineers and then send them home to compete with American businesses." Another argument, shortages of American workers for some jobs, including math and science teachers, and some medical specialists. Advocates for American workers just aren't buying that.
PAUL RICCI, AMERICAN LABOR FIRST: We reject the notion altogether. There are plenty of people, like I said, that are part of my own organization that are looking for work now in all sorts of engineering and science fields, and they cannot find work.
PETE BENNETT, NOMOREH1B.COM: There are Ph.D.s, mathematics experts all over the place that have been displaced by this program or by the onslaught of outsourcing. There has to be a qualified worker. Maybe they might just have to pay for relocation and relocate them to some other part of the country. But it's about time they really looked hard inside the United States.
VILES: Now the lobbying group pushing for the exemptions includes Intel and Motorola. Until recently it called itself American Business for Legal Immigration but is rebranding itself as only a Washington lobby could, with the new name, quote "Compete America."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Now one of the more surprising aspects of this is the widespread use and recruitment of foreigners to teach in American public schools, particularly in big cities such as New York and Los Angeles, Which hire foreigners by the hundreds to teach math, sciences and languages -- Lou.
DOBBS: So, as Alan Greenspan is calling for education, it's a solution to the problem, the suggestion is that we need to bring in foreign teachers in order to get that education?
VILES: This is one area we should be training more Americans. We know we need them. We have a teacher shortage. We need Americans to fill these jobs.
DOBBS: Peter Viles, thank you.
When we continue, "Broken Borders," I'll be talking with a former special agent for the INS who testified before Congress today. We'll hear his thoughts. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Our next guest testified on Capitol Hill today on immigration, border security, saying President Bush's immigration proposals won't work because they don't provide resources needed to stop the flow of illegal aliens into this country.
Joining me now from Washington, D.C. Michael Cutler, former senior special agent for the INS, a fellow at The Center For Immigration Studies.
Mike, good to have you here.
MICHAEL CUTLER, FORMER SENIOR SPECIAL INS AGENT: Good to be here.
DOBBS: The basic issue of border security is it your sense that the committee you testified before today, the Congress, is ready to move ahead?
CUTLER: Well, I think they are. I think that what really concerns everybody is that we don't have enough resources to really deter the flow of illegal aliens into the United States. It's not just the border, they were looking to come up with another 200 plus agents to look for the something on the order of 400,000 aliens who've absconded within our borders. 80,000 of whom have serious criminal records. So they're talking about another 200 plus agents and the odds just don't work out.
DOBBS: You testified also about the desperate need for interior agents, Border Patrol, immigration officers to police the millions of illegal aliens in this country.
How much -- how much resources, how many people do you think are needed?
CUTLER: Well, it's hard to give you a hard figure. But I've made the analogy that we've got 38,000 cops patrolling New York streets, policing 8 million people, and that's why New York is one of the safest big cities. And we've got 2,000 INS agents policing a number of perhaps as high as 14 million illegal aliens scattered across the North American continent or a third of the north American continent. So the problem is we need many more agents so that there's a sense of integrity to the program. Right now an alien who crosses the border knows that he stands a very slim chance, if any at all, of being caught once he's here. It's the game of hide and seek but INS doesn't do a very good job of seeking, I'm afraid.
DOBBS: As a former agent and familiar with those who now serve in the border patrol and immigration, what has been the reaction to the president's concession to Vicente Fox over last weekend on exempting him from the U.S. Visit program?
CUTLER: I think we're all outraged. You know, as it is we have a visa waiver program where we're letting people into this country from 28 countries, where we're not properly screening these folks. Now we're also exempting those 28 nationals, or the people from those 28 countries from U.S. Visit, which is supposed to record photographs, fingerprints other biometrics to keep track of who's here. To now turn around and tell Mexico that we will allow a number of their people to come in to our country, and exempt them from this program, absolutely, is counterintuitive and makes no sense to any of us.
DOBBS: Mike Cutler, we thank you for being with us here.
Now for a look at some of your thoughts. First on exporting America. Paul Montini of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. "I never considered myself a protectionist but all things considered, I would rather live in a society that allows us to earn a wage worthy of a worker and a developed nation and not compete against third-world wages."
John Birchfiel of Cary, North Carolina. "What is wrong with this picture? We are running a record-high trade deficit, we have millions without jobs, yet we are exporting millions of jobs overseas and we are importing millions of illegal aliens for cheap labor. Where does it all end?"
Tom and Sue Haines of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. "Lou, the reason that famous economists and columnists are attacking you for your views is that you're doing something which terrifies them. You're mixing economics with common sense, something they seem to be incapable of doing."
Well, they just haven't thought about it yet. I'm sure they'll come around. We love hearing from you. E-mail us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up, China's unseen but profound impact on world markets. And in particular, the U.S. economy. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now a look at tonight's news in brief. Lawmakers in Boston today debated legislation that would ban gay marriage in the state of Massachusetts as hundreds protested outside. After failing to reach agreement last month the legislature returned to discuss an amendment that would ban gay marriage but allow civil unions.
Meanwhile the California supreme court today ordered a stop to gay marriages in San Francisco where marriage licenses have been issued to gay couples since last month.
The Internal Revenue Service put a spotlight on the rich last year. Audits of taxpayers earning $100,000 or more rose almost 25 percent. And turning to energy, gasoline prices nationwide are nearing all-time record highs. The national average for a gallon of gasoline $1.73. That's less than a penny short of the record.
An alarming new report tonight on China's growing appetite for oil and other commodities. That report sent crude oil prices rising today. Christine Romans is here.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The International Energy Agency jacked up its global demand forecast for oil solely because of China. Because of China's booming economy, construction sites, this economy is going to suck in almost 6 million barrels of oil a day. That's up 11 percent from last year. Double digit percentage gains expected for next year, too. Runaway growth in transportation, construction, all kinds of different industries. A lot of energy analysts say just get used to it.
Then you look at steel prices. Steel prices have been spiking, also, because of China. And now there are concerns that China is double ordering and hoarding steel.
DOBBS: Why isn't the administration at this point -- because these charges of hoarding now surfacing today, on this and a number of other commodities, as well, including copper -- why isn't the administration calling for hearings?
ROMANS: At this point the experts I've talked to say it's hard to prove so far and these are all new sorts of charges. But it is something that people in the industry say is a real concern because it can be, you know, can be really troubling down the road. China's boom is steel intensive. And a lot of folks say they're expecting that demand to continue. Prices have gone up 30 percent just this year.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. Up next we'll have the results of our poll. But first a reminder to check our website for the complete list of companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. CNN.com/lou. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. 12 percent of you say shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets is simply part of free trade. Almost 90 percent of you, 88 percent, say no way. I agree with you. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Tomorrow here, Senate minority leader Tom Daschle talking about the battle in Congress over this very issue. The exporting of American jobs. And Chinese thieves stealing American technology. The Bush administration in this case refuse to help. That story tomorrow night. For all of us here, thanks for being with us. Good night from New York. Coming up next, as always, my cross town colleague, Anderson Cooper.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Arrested>
