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Rap Sheet: Fresno Killings; Interview With Walter Yetnikoff; Utah Woman Refuses C-Section, Charged With Murder
Aired March 14, 2004 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here are the stories making headlines tonight and tomorrow. A change of government in Spain, the party which had supported President Bush's Iraq policy was voted out, being replaced by the Socialist Worker's Party, whose leader promises to fight terrorism and work for peace.
Suicide bombings and retaliation in the Middle East. Israeli helicopters fired at locations in Gaza before dawn Monday. Sunday, a pair of suicide bombers in the Israeli port city of Ashdud blew themselves up, killing 10 bystanders.
And shock and mourning in Fresno, California. A makeshift memorial of cards, balloons and teddy bears honors the nine women and children whose bodies were discovered Friday. Marcus Wesson, whom police say may have fathered two of the victims with his own daughters, has been charged with nine counts of murder.
Well, the Fresno killings lead off tonight's "Rap Sheet." As always, we're joined from Boston by former federal prosecutor Wendy Murphy and criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Carol.
LIN: With us from hot Miami. Welcome to both of you.
WEINTRAUB: Hi, Carol.
LIN: Let's start off with this very bizarre case in Fresno, with this 57-year old man that is going to be charged with nine murders. He's facing $9 million in bond. What do you guys make of this case, Wendy?
WENDY MURPHY, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, sometimes you think you've heard everything. And then a case like this comes along. Carol, it's just outrageous. And my question is, where was social services? There were a lot of kids in that house that were not leaving that house. People knew they were basically trapped inside.
You know, when a case like this happens, and you hear that all the people around this guy saw what he was doing, knew the kids were in trouble, and nobody got involved, and now are all dead...
LIN: Ten coffins, ten coffins in the backyard. He claimed to the neighbors that he wanted it for wood.
Jayne, let's say you're defending this man. Where do you even begin?
WEINTRAUB: Well, you begin by having him psychologically evaluated and examined? I mean, obviously, this is a very sick, deranged man. And I share Wendy's concerns. I mean, you have even older children saying my father was a great father. He was a religious man. We weren't abused. That's frightening.
And I think your lead off really tells it all, Carol, in one word. It is shocking.
LIN: Yes.
WEINTRAUB: This story's horrifying. I think the police even are undergoing counseling as we speak. I mean, this really...
LIN: Yes.
WEINTRAUB: ...this homicide scene must have been beyond belief.
LIN: Beyond belief. All right.
MURPHY: But you know something? You know something? Let's not be too quick to say this is about mental illness. Some men do exactly what this guy did. They kill for revenge. Apparently, two of the mothers of his children showed up. They wanted custody of their kids. And he killed out of anger and revenge and lots of guys do that in this country. I'm not persuaded he's mentally ill. I am persuaded he's evil.
LIN: All right, well let's talk about a busy man. Mark Geragos, Scott Peterson's attorney, is going to be asking for yet another change of venue for his client. It goes from Modesto now to Redwood City in Santa Clara County. And I think Mr. Geragos wants to go all the way down to Los Angeles.
WEINTRAUB: Well, Carol, it's not really a matter of what Mark Geragos wants. It's that Mark Geragos is seeking some kind of fathoming a fair trial anyway that he can. And it's obvious already that they won't find enough jurors to even qualify to talk to in the small town that they're in.
MURPHY: Small...
LIN: Bay area?
MURPHY: Come on. He doesn't want a fair trial. He wants the state to have an unfair trial in L.A.
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, Wendy...
MURPHY: He's not going to get the change of venue. There is no question in my mind that he's angry that he landed in Santa Clara County. You know why? Because the average intelligence there is sky high. The people aren't dumb enough for him to do his silly dog and pony show...
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, he doesn't have to.
MURPHY: ...about the cults and the brown van.
WEINTRAUB: You know, here's the bottom line. They need to sequester this jury somewhere. And it won't be for too long, because remember, the trial can't be too long. There's no evidence of a cause of death. There's no confession. There are no eyewitnesses. I mean, I don't see a whole lot of evidence. The longest part of the case is jury selection.
So I say...
MURPHY: Yes, you wait and see. They're predicting a five month trial. You know, Geragos is complaining he can't get a fair trial because everyone thinks his poor client is so guilty. Well, that's because he went on national television and lied 17 times. And a pregnant woman is dead.
To repeat this, where are you going to send this case to dumb and heartless city, USA? Where are you going to get a jury that isn't going to think this guy is a beast?
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, that's not the problem. Remember in all seriousness, this is a death penalty case. And as such, people who automatically say on a questionnaire no matter what, they don't believe in the death penalty, they're automatically excluded from the process. There are so many people...
MURPHY: As they should be.
WEINTRAUB: ...Wendy, there are so many people that have been excluded from the process, either because of the media spin on how guilty he is when they have no evidence, or the opposite end of the spectrum because they don't believe in the death penalty. And for some absurd reason, the state thinks they have a chance of getting death in the state if there's a conviction.
(CROSSTALK)
MURPHY: No, Jayne -- you know, Jayne, here's the thing. You're right that there's -- that there are those two extreme important points here, but all that means is it's going to take longer to get a jury that will agree to keep an open mind. And that's all he's entitled to. And he will get it. And he will be convicted. And that's the way it should be.
WEINTRAUB: There won't be any evidence. It'll -- it really -- it will not be a fair trial, not in this country, not today.
LIN: And not even in Los Angeles.
MURPHY: All they need to see is that blond hair, the goatee, the $15K in cash the day his wife's body...
WEINTRAUB: Yes, forget about evidence of murder, Wendy. That's not important in this case. MURPHY: Oh, that's called a slam dunk.
LIN: OK, not such a slam dunk perhaps out in Utah, where this young woman, this Utah mother, her name is Melissa Ann Rowland, is now charged with criminal homicide. This is the woman, ladies, you might recall, who refused to have a C-section, despite her doctor saying look, your infant's heartbeat is slowing down. We've got problems. Allegedly this woman said that she did not want to be cut in that manner.
Now her attorneys are saying that she's had previous C-sections. The C-section was not the problem. What is going to be her defense, Jayne?
WEINTRAUB: You know, I have to say first, Carol, and Wendy don't you show any scars, you know, as a mom, you know, we're all abhorred to talk about the case and to see it, but we're lawyers. And as lawyers, you have to realize. Look at the picture. Talk about mental illness? Why didn't the doctors that saw this happening -- my question is, why didn't they seek an emergency court order, like they would with a Jehovah Witness, you know, refusing a transfusion in a similar situation?
Talk about where was Social Services.
MURPHY: But...
WEINTRAUB: Where are people...
MURPHY: ...look at me, Jayne. I'm nodding my head. We're on the screen together and I'm nodding my head. What a day.
WEINTRAUB: It is horrific.
(CROSSTALK)
LIN: Is that true? I mean, can the doctors get a court order? I mean in this case...
MURPHY: Sure they could.
LIN: ...one of the twins ended up dying.
WEINTRAUB: A guardian could have been appointed to the baby...
MURPHY: Yes.
WEINTRAUB: Or the fetus, what -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) used to call it. But you know, more than that, you know, the issues that are raised are can the judge impose an operation on a woman that doesn't want one? I mean, we need to have guardians, you know, appointed. But emergency procedures could have been in place, so that something could have been done here.
I mean, talk about mental illness, this woman might not have even appreciated her or understood properly what this operation would entail.
LIN: But doesn't this potentially open the door for the government then to come in and say look, this was a precedent setting case if this woman gets convicted.
WEINTRAUB: Absolutely.
LIN: Therefore, the next mom who doesn't listen to her obstetrician's diet advice, and starts eating junk food and jeopardizing her fetus, is she going to be able to...
MURPHY: Carol?
WEINTRAUB: Carol, I'm not saying that there should have been a court order to let her have the operation. I'm just saying there should have been a court to determine these issues.
And you raise the exact frightening question. You know, if a doctor tells you don't smoke, and you smoke, and then God forbid the baby's born stillborn and there's smoke in the lungs, is some wacko D.A. going to have you arrested for murder? I mean, I don't know the answers. I just know really what the issues would be, that should have been raised. And it should have been in a court.
LIN: Wendy, you get the last word.
MURPHY: The point is that a guardian, had one been appointed, wouldn't have been there to command that the surgeon get involved, but to help the woman make an informed choice. If she is mentally ill, that's a minimum that the hospital should have taken as a basic step.
I'm worried about the chilling effect to pregnant women everywhere. And babies are going to die if pregnant women say to themselves, I'm not going to get medical treatment because I'm afraid my doctor will advise X. I'll disagree. And I'll be locked up. This is a danger sign, a very dangerous day to start doing this to pregnant women. We want to encourage them to get medical care, so they'll be healthy and safe. Their babies will be healthy and safe.
LIN: Yes.
MURPHY: You can't threaten prosecution.
LIN: We are on the heels of a precedent setting case out there in Utah, ladies. Thank you very much, Wendy Murphy, Jayne Weintraub. Always great to have you guys.
WEINTRAUB: Thank you, good night.
MURPHY: Thanks, Carol.
LIN: Well, while some observers say the Rowland case in Utah could have an impact on abortion rights, a proposal in South Dakota could make an even bigger splash and turn back the clock on Roe v. Wade.
Eric Phillips has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIC PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lawmakers in South Dakota are poised to pass a bill which will ban most abortions in the state. It directly challenges a 1973 Supreme Court decision on Roe versus Wade, which legalized abortion.
GOV. MIKE ROUNDS, SOUTH DAKOTA: I believe that the concept of the bill is correct, and it follows through with what the majority of the legislature wanted to do.
PHILLIPS: The Supreme Court left the decision about abortion to the mother and her doctor during the first trimester. The bill's sponsor says this law would ban abortion all together with the only exceptions being when pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger or severely impairs her health. The director of South Dakota's Planned Parenthood says the bill is not what the people need or want.
KATE LOOBY, SOUTH DAKOTA PLANNED PARENTHOOD: They don't want this kind of extremist legislation, that doesn't even allow for victims of rape and incest to seek safe, legal abortion in South Dakota.
PHILLIPS: Others are pleased that the state lawmakers are taking a firm stand.
ROBERT REIGIER, SOUTH DAKOTA, FAMILY POLICY COUNCIL: I think it's great for South Dakota that we are the leader on the right to life issue.
PHILLIPS: The governor says the legislature just needs to revise the bills. So if the new law gets suspended because of lawsuits, the current law will still be around.
ROUNDS: The existing laws as limited as they are still provided some of the strongest protections in the United States for limiting abortions.
PHILLIPS: The legislature is expected to reword the bill per the governor's recommendations. The governor has said he will then sign it into a law, a move which he believes will spark a series of court battles, which could end at the Supreme Court.
Eric Phillips, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Putting a human face to the destructive force of terrorism, still to come, an emotional good-bye for one Spanish family.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Our CNN spotlight is on Spain. Everywhere you look, the faces are numb, grief stricken, disbelieving. Yet there is a determination to carry on somehow. Here is CNN's Alessio Vinci.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the Benito family, the loss of 27-year old Rudolpho feels like an injustice. His father Juan just can't let his youngest son go.
Anna, his girlfriend, realizes this is a last chance to kiss him good-bye. And for all others, the pain is simply too much to bear. But for those left behind, life goes on. So on this election Sunday, the Benitos went to cast their vote.
Leaving the polling station, Rudolpho's mother Conci can barely walk on her own. A friend sees her, wants to offer condolences. She is overwhelmed.
Rudolpho's brother, Alejandro, says the past few days have been just too demanding. The outpour of grief this nation has shown for its victims means little right now.
ALEJANDRO BENITO, VICTIM'S BROTHER: Now for us, at this moment, there is no -- it's not -- it doesn't mean anything. Maybe in one week or I don't know how many -- how long time. I'm quite sure that it's going to be very important for us.
VINCI: How does one cope with a loss of one's brother? There aren't any easy answers.
BENITO: I didn't realize yet that my brother is not here. I think that he's just beside me.
VINCI: One of the country's largest dailies publishes a letter Rudolpho's girlfriend, Anna, wrote to him. In it, she writes, "With your love, we shared moments of a life we were learning to live together. With your friends, you were always the joker and the one with the right words during difficult times." And she ends the letter by saying, "I'd like to say much more about what we feel, but I don't have the right words to express it."
Just one of the many sad stories here, as the country mourns its dead.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, Alcaldenares (ph), Spain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Interesting what people are searching for on our website.
All right, you may not know who Walter Yetnikoff is, but you sure can sing along with the people he mentored. As president of CBS Records, Yetnikoff knew, among others, Michael Jackson, Marvin Gaye, Mick Jagger, and Bob Dillon, dined with them, almost traded fist fights with them. He's just written book, "Howling at the Moon: The Odyssey of a Monstrous Music Mogul in the Age of Excess or in An Age of Excess." And he joins us from New York.
Walter, after reading much of your book, I have to say you're a part of that excess. I mean, I don't know whether you had more sex or more alcohol. And by page three, I think you were into eight drinks of vodka?
WALTER YETNIKOFF, FMR. PRES. CBS RECORDS: I was certainly part of the age of excess. Yes, I think that was a significant portion of the book.
LIN: And a significant part of, you know, a really historic time during the music industry. And you knew some of the best of the best. And some of your stories were hysterical. I've got to ask you, especially with the news of the day, you know, what was Michael Jackson like?
YETNIKOFF: Well, he's many different people, as a lot of us are. Part of him is a child. And you know, people have said that they've heard him speak in a different voice, you know, other than the squeaky one. I've never heard anything other than the squeaky voice. And I knew him quite well. And the story I tell to illustrate, you know, the childish part of his nature is, we were at a formal affair. And he had the monkey with him. And I was there. And we were all dressed in tuxedos, except for the money. And he turned to me...
LIN: This was Bubbles, right?
YETNIKOFF: This was Bubbles, yes. I think there are a number of Bubbles, actually. And he turned to me and he said, "I have to tinkle. Can you take me to the potty?"
I didn't actually, or else I might have more to report. So that's sort of the childish part of him. He was also in that era, quite an astute business person. You know, he bought the Beatles publishing catalogue. He was very careful about contracts. So in a lot of technical ways, he was very good businessman.
LIN: What stands out about the time you spent with Marvin Gaye?
YETNIKOFF: Marvin Gaye is, you know, really a seminal artist. I mean, he gave birth to the whole era of rock and roll. I've seen people like Jagger, you know, kneel down in front of him and say, "Marvin, you know, you taught me everything I know." But at the very end, during the sexual healing era, where he was making his comeback, he had a really bad drug problem, worse than mine, perhaps.
LIN: It's hard to believe, frankly, Walter, from what I've read.
YETNIKOFF: I -- OK. But I was with him two weeks before he was killed at a concert at Radio City. And he had a lot of drugs with him. In fact, he turned to me and said, "Would you like some?" And I said, "No, no, no thanks." And he said, "Well, come on, I know about you." I said, "You don't understand, Marvin. It's not that I don't want any. I don't want to take any away from you, because you'll run out and then you'll get angry at me." And he took a lot -- a big pile of white powder and said, "How could I run out of that?" And within an hour, he was out.
LIN: OK, and how in the world would you come to fist cuffs -- come to blows with Mick Jagger?
YETNIKOFF: We didn't. We almost did. It was the conclusion of about a year's chasing around the world, trying to close a deal with the Rolling Stones. And in 1988, more or less. And they were on a tax holiday from England. So we spent a lot of time in Paris. At the conclusion of a very complicated negotiation, we were in the basement of the Ritz Hotel with a lot of lawyers, a lot of accountants. And we came to some really non-substantive point.
And Keith Richards in eye make-up shows up and says, "Whatever Mick says is right." I said, "Oh, shut-up. You know, you had your blood changed to Canada. We haven't heard from you for 15 years. Go away." And then Jagger says, "You such and such and such and such, record executive." It's 3:00 in the morning and I sort of had enough. And I pulled back my fist. I'm generally pretty good physical shape. Jagger must weigh at least 98 pounds. And I started to grab his throat and I was going to hit him. And I said to myself, "Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it."
It was you guys in the media...
LIN: Oh, God.
YETNIKOFF: ...who actually kept me awake. So I was thinking of the headline. You know, "Record Executive Kills Mick Jagger in French Hotel."
LIN: Well, you're making different headlines today. I know you're watching current events closely, knowing Michael Jackson. I know you think it is a sad story. So we appreciate the time that you have for us, Walter Yetnikoff.
YETNIKOFF: Thank you.
LIN: Well, despite the recent events overseas, do you think the world is a safer place today? Answer, our last call question of the night. Well, straight ahead, we're going to have those answers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: This is a rap for us. A quick check of the day's top stories just a minute away. But before we go, here are your thoughts on tonight's last call question, is the world safer today?
CALLER: Absolutely. As a member of the military armed services, I know it's safer today without Saddam Hussein.
CALLER: I absolutely do not feel that the world is safer today. I feel that as Americans, we're walking around with targets on our heads. CALLER: No, I do not think the world is safer today. I think we are in a much dire situation.
CALLER: Now I do think the world is safer today.
CALLER: No, I don't think the world is safer today. I think we're worse off than we were.
CALLER: Not safe. Can you imagine if all that money spent in Iraq would have been spent on homeland security?
CALLER: Yes, I do think the world is safer today. Thanks to President Bush and that lieutenant that was killed.
CALLER: No, I don't believe the world is any safer today than it was when September 11th happened.
CALLER: The world is much less safe today than it was after 9/11 because of the reckless policies of this administration.
CALLER: I do think the world is safer today. And I believe that our U.S. troops are serving our nation and our country.
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Yetnikoff; Utah Woman Refuses C-Section, Charged With Murder>
Aired March 14, 2004 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here are the stories making headlines tonight and tomorrow. A change of government in Spain, the party which had supported President Bush's Iraq policy was voted out, being replaced by the Socialist Worker's Party, whose leader promises to fight terrorism and work for peace.
Suicide bombings and retaliation in the Middle East. Israeli helicopters fired at locations in Gaza before dawn Monday. Sunday, a pair of suicide bombers in the Israeli port city of Ashdud blew themselves up, killing 10 bystanders.
And shock and mourning in Fresno, California. A makeshift memorial of cards, balloons and teddy bears honors the nine women and children whose bodies were discovered Friday. Marcus Wesson, whom police say may have fathered two of the victims with his own daughters, has been charged with nine counts of murder.
Well, the Fresno killings lead off tonight's "Rap Sheet." As always, we're joined from Boston by former federal prosecutor Wendy Murphy and criminal defense attorney Jayne Weintraub.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hi, Carol.
LIN: With us from hot Miami. Welcome to both of you.
WEINTRAUB: Hi, Carol.
LIN: Let's start off with this very bizarre case in Fresno, with this 57-year old man that is going to be charged with nine murders. He's facing $9 million in bond. What do you guys make of this case, Wendy?
WENDY MURPHY, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: You know, sometimes you think you've heard everything. And then a case like this comes along. Carol, it's just outrageous. And my question is, where was social services? There were a lot of kids in that house that were not leaving that house. People knew they were basically trapped inside.
You know, when a case like this happens, and you hear that all the people around this guy saw what he was doing, knew the kids were in trouble, and nobody got involved, and now are all dead...
LIN: Ten coffins, ten coffins in the backyard. He claimed to the neighbors that he wanted it for wood.
Jayne, let's say you're defending this man. Where do you even begin?
WEINTRAUB: Well, you begin by having him psychologically evaluated and examined? I mean, obviously, this is a very sick, deranged man. And I share Wendy's concerns. I mean, you have even older children saying my father was a great father. He was a religious man. We weren't abused. That's frightening.
And I think your lead off really tells it all, Carol, in one word. It is shocking.
LIN: Yes.
WEINTRAUB: This story's horrifying. I think the police even are undergoing counseling as we speak. I mean, this really...
LIN: Yes.
WEINTRAUB: ...this homicide scene must have been beyond belief.
LIN: Beyond belief. All right.
MURPHY: But you know something? You know something? Let's not be too quick to say this is about mental illness. Some men do exactly what this guy did. They kill for revenge. Apparently, two of the mothers of his children showed up. They wanted custody of their kids. And he killed out of anger and revenge and lots of guys do that in this country. I'm not persuaded he's mentally ill. I am persuaded he's evil.
LIN: All right, well let's talk about a busy man. Mark Geragos, Scott Peterson's attorney, is going to be asking for yet another change of venue for his client. It goes from Modesto now to Redwood City in Santa Clara County. And I think Mr. Geragos wants to go all the way down to Los Angeles.
WEINTRAUB: Well, Carol, it's not really a matter of what Mark Geragos wants. It's that Mark Geragos is seeking some kind of fathoming a fair trial anyway that he can. And it's obvious already that they won't find enough jurors to even qualify to talk to in the small town that they're in.
MURPHY: Small...
LIN: Bay area?
MURPHY: Come on. He doesn't want a fair trial. He wants the state to have an unfair trial in L.A.
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, Wendy...
MURPHY: He's not going to get the change of venue. There is no question in my mind that he's angry that he landed in Santa Clara County. You know why? Because the average intelligence there is sky high. The people aren't dumb enough for him to do his silly dog and pony show...
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, he doesn't have to.
MURPHY: ...about the cults and the brown van.
WEINTRAUB: You know, here's the bottom line. They need to sequester this jury somewhere. And it won't be for too long, because remember, the trial can't be too long. There's no evidence of a cause of death. There's no confession. There are no eyewitnesses. I mean, I don't see a whole lot of evidence. The longest part of the case is jury selection.
So I say...
MURPHY: Yes, you wait and see. They're predicting a five month trial. You know, Geragos is complaining he can't get a fair trial because everyone thinks his poor client is so guilty. Well, that's because he went on national television and lied 17 times. And a pregnant woman is dead.
To repeat this, where are you going to send this case to dumb and heartless city, USA? Where are you going to get a jury that isn't going to think this guy is a beast?
WEINTRAUB: Wendy, that's not the problem. Remember in all seriousness, this is a death penalty case. And as such, people who automatically say on a questionnaire no matter what, they don't believe in the death penalty, they're automatically excluded from the process. There are so many people...
MURPHY: As they should be.
WEINTRAUB: ...Wendy, there are so many people that have been excluded from the process, either because of the media spin on how guilty he is when they have no evidence, or the opposite end of the spectrum because they don't believe in the death penalty. And for some absurd reason, the state thinks they have a chance of getting death in the state if there's a conviction.
(CROSSTALK)
MURPHY: No, Jayne -- you know, Jayne, here's the thing. You're right that there's -- that there are those two extreme important points here, but all that means is it's going to take longer to get a jury that will agree to keep an open mind. And that's all he's entitled to. And he will get it. And he will be convicted. And that's the way it should be.
WEINTRAUB: There won't be any evidence. It'll -- it really -- it will not be a fair trial, not in this country, not today.
LIN: And not even in Los Angeles.
MURPHY: All they need to see is that blond hair, the goatee, the $15K in cash the day his wife's body...
WEINTRAUB: Yes, forget about evidence of murder, Wendy. That's not important in this case. MURPHY: Oh, that's called a slam dunk.
LIN: OK, not such a slam dunk perhaps out in Utah, where this young woman, this Utah mother, her name is Melissa Ann Rowland, is now charged with criminal homicide. This is the woman, ladies, you might recall, who refused to have a C-section, despite her doctor saying look, your infant's heartbeat is slowing down. We've got problems. Allegedly this woman said that she did not want to be cut in that manner.
Now her attorneys are saying that she's had previous C-sections. The C-section was not the problem. What is going to be her defense, Jayne?
WEINTRAUB: You know, I have to say first, Carol, and Wendy don't you show any scars, you know, as a mom, you know, we're all abhorred to talk about the case and to see it, but we're lawyers. And as lawyers, you have to realize. Look at the picture. Talk about mental illness? Why didn't the doctors that saw this happening -- my question is, why didn't they seek an emergency court order, like they would with a Jehovah Witness, you know, refusing a transfusion in a similar situation?
Talk about where was Social Services.
MURPHY: But...
WEINTRAUB: Where are people...
MURPHY: ...look at me, Jayne. I'm nodding my head. We're on the screen together and I'm nodding my head. What a day.
WEINTRAUB: It is horrific.
(CROSSTALK)
LIN: Is that true? I mean, can the doctors get a court order? I mean in this case...
MURPHY: Sure they could.
LIN: ...one of the twins ended up dying.
WEINTRAUB: A guardian could have been appointed to the baby...
MURPHY: Yes.
WEINTRAUB: Or the fetus, what -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) used to call it. But you know, more than that, you know, the issues that are raised are can the judge impose an operation on a woman that doesn't want one? I mean, we need to have guardians, you know, appointed. But emergency procedures could have been in place, so that something could have been done here.
I mean, talk about mental illness, this woman might not have even appreciated her or understood properly what this operation would entail.
LIN: But doesn't this potentially open the door for the government then to come in and say look, this was a precedent setting case if this woman gets convicted.
WEINTRAUB: Absolutely.
LIN: Therefore, the next mom who doesn't listen to her obstetrician's diet advice, and starts eating junk food and jeopardizing her fetus, is she going to be able to...
MURPHY: Carol?
WEINTRAUB: Carol, I'm not saying that there should have been a court order to let her have the operation. I'm just saying there should have been a court to determine these issues.
And you raise the exact frightening question. You know, if a doctor tells you don't smoke, and you smoke, and then God forbid the baby's born stillborn and there's smoke in the lungs, is some wacko D.A. going to have you arrested for murder? I mean, I don't know the answers. I just know really what the issues would be, that should have been raised. And it should have been in a court.
LIN: Wendy, you get the last word.
MURPHY: The point is that a guardian, had one been appointed, wouldn't have been there to command that the surgeon get involved, but to help the woman make an informed choice. If she is mentally ill, that's a minimum that the hospital should have taken as a basic step.
I'm worried about the chilling effect to pregnant women everywhere. And babies are going to die if pregnant women say to themselves, I'm not going to get medical treatment because I'm afraid my doctor will advise X. I'll disagree. And I'll be locked up. This is a danger sign, a very dangerous day to start doing this to pregnant women. We want to encourage them to get medical care, so they'll be healthy and safe. Their babies will be healthy and safe.
LIN: Yes.
MURPHY: You can't threaten prosecution.
LIN: We are on the heels of a precedent setting case out there in Utah, ladies. Thank you very much, Wendy Murphy, Jayne Weintraub. Always great to have you guys.
WEINTRAUB: Thank you, good night.
MURPHY: Thanks, Carol.
LIN: Well, while some observers say the Rowland case in Utah could have an impact on abortion rights, a proposal in South Dakota could make an even bigger splash and turn back the clock on Roe v. Wade.
Eric Phillips has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIC PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lawmakers in South Dakota are poised to pass a bill which will ban most abortions in the state. It directly challenges a 1973 Supreme Court decision on Roe versus Wade, which legalized abortion.
GOV. MIKE ROUNDS, SOUTH DAKOTA: I believe that the concept of the bill is correct, and it follows through with what the majority of the legislature wanted to do.
PHILLIPS: The Supreme Court left the decision about abortion to the mother and her doctor during the first trimester. The bill's sponsor says this law would ban abortion all together with the only exceptions being when pregnancy puts a woman's life in danger or severely impairs her health. The director of South Dakota's Planned Parenthood says the bill is not what the people need or want.
KATE LOOBY, SOUTH DAKOTA PLANNED PARENTHOOD: They don't want this kind of extremist legislation, that doesn't even allow for victims of rape and incest to seek safe, legal abortion in South Dakota.
PHILLIPS: Others are pleased that the state lawmakers are taking a firm stand.
ROBERT REIGIER, SOUTH DAKOTA, FAMILY POLICY COUNCIL: I think it's great for South Dakota that we are the leader on the right to life issue.
PHILLIPS: The governor says the legislature just needs to revise the bills. So if the new law gets suspended because of lawsuits, the current law will still be around.
ROUNDS: The existing laws as limited as they are still provided some of the strongest protections in the United States for limiting abortions.
PHILLIPS: The legislature is expected to reword the bill per the governor's recommendations. The governor has said he will then sign it into a law, a move which he believes will spark a series of court battles, which could end at the Supreme Court.
Eric Phillips, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Putting a human face to the destructive force of terrorism, still to come, an emotional good-bye for one Spanish family.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Our CNN spotlight is on Spain. Everywhere you look, the faces are numb, grief stricken, disbelieving. Yet there is a determination to carry on somehow. Here is CNN's Alessio Vinci.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the Benito family, the loss of 27-year old Rudolpho feels like an injustice. His father Juan just can't let his youngest son go.
Anna, his girlfriend, realizes this is a last chance to kiss him good-bye. And for all others, the pain is simply too much to bear. But for those left behind, life goes on. So on this election Sunday, the Benitos went to cast their vote.
Leaving the polling station, Rudolpho's mother Conci can barely walk on her own. A friend sees her, wants to offer condolences. She is overwhelmed.
Rudolpho's brother, Alejandro, says the past few days have been just too demanding. The outpour of grief this nation has shown for its victims means little right now.
ALEJANDRO BENITO, VICTIM'S BROTHER: Now for us, at this moment, there is no -- it's not -- it doesn't mean anything. Maybe in one week or I don't know how many -- how long time. I'm quite sure that it's going to be very important for us.
VINCI: How does one cope with a loss of one's brother? There aren't any easy answers.
BENITO: I didn't realize yet that my brother is not here. I think that he's just beside me.
VINCI: One of the country's largest dailies publishes a letter Rudolpho's girlfriend, Anna, wrote to him. In it, she writes, "With your love, we shared moments of a life we were learning to live together. With your friends, you were always the joker and the one with the right words during difficult times." And she ends the letter by saying, "I'd like to say much more about what we feel, but I don't have the right words to express it."
Just one of the many sad stories here, as the country mourns its dead.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, Alcaldenares (ph), Spain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Interesting what people are searching for on our website.
All right, you may not know who Walter Yetnikoff is, but you sure can sing along with the people he mentored. As president of CBS Records, Yetnikoff knew, among others, Michael Jackson, Marvin Gaye, Mick Jagger, and Bob Dillon, dined with them, almost traded fist fights with them. He's just written book, "Howling at the Moon: The Odyssey of a Monstrous Music Mogul in the Age of Excess or in An Age of Excess." And he joins us from New York.
Walter, after reading much of your book, I have to say you're a part of that excess. I mean, I don't know whether you had more sex or more alcohol. And by page three, I think you were into eight drinks of vodka?
WALTER YETNIKOFF, FMR. PRES. CBS RECORDS: I was certainly part of the age of excess. Yes, I think that was a significant portion of the book.
LIN: And a significant part of, you know, a really historic time during the music industry. And you knew some of the best of the best. And some of your stories were hysterical. I've got to ask you, especially with the news of the day, you know, what was Michael Jackson like?
YETNIKOFF: Well, he's many different people, as a lot of us are. Part of him is a child. And you know, people have said that they've heard him speak in a different voice, you know, other than the squeaky one. I've never heard anything other than the squeaky voice. And I knew him quite well. And the story I tell to illustrate, you know, the childish part of his nature is, we were at a formal affair. And he had the monkey with him. And I was there. And we were all dressed in tuxedos, except for the money. And he turned to me...
LIN: This was Bubbles, right?
YETNIKOFF: This was Bubbles, yes. I think there are a number of Bubbles, actually. And he turned to me and he said, "I have to tinkle. Can you take me to the potty?"
I didn't actually, or else I might have more to report. So that's sort of the childish part of him. He was also in that era, quite an astute business person. You know, he bought the Beatles publishing catalogue. He was very careful about contracts. So in a lot of technical ways, he was very good businessman.
LIN: What stands out about the time you spent with Marvin Gaye?
YETNIKOFF: Marvin Gaye is, you know, really a seminal artist. I mean, he gave birth to the whole era of rock and roll. I've seen people like Jagger, you know, kneel down in front of him and say, "Marvin, you know, you taught me everything I know." But at the very end, during the sexual healing era, where he was making his comeback, he had a really bad drug problem, worse than mine, perhaps.
LIN: It's hard to believe, frankly, Walter, from what I've read.
YETNIKOFF: I -- OK. But I was with him two weeks before he was killed at a concert at Radio City. And he had a lot of drugs with him. In fact, he turned to me and said, "Would you like some?" And I said, "No, no, no thanks." And he said, "Well, come on, I know about you." I said, "You don't understand, Marvin. It's not that I don't want any. I don't want to take any away from you, because you'll run out and then you'll get angry at me." And he took a lot -- a big pile of white powder and said, "How could I run out of that?" And within an hour, he was out.
LIN: OK, and how in the world would you come to fist cuffs -- come to blows with Mick Jagger?
YETNIKOFF: We didn't. We almost did. It was the conclusion of about a year's chasing around the world, trying to close a deal with the Rolling Stones. And in 1988, more or less. And they were on a tax holiday from England. So we spent a lot of time in Paris. At the conclusion of a very complicated negotiation, we were in the basement of the Ritz Hotel with a lot of lawyers, a lot of accountants. And we came to some really non-substantive point.
And Keith Richards in eye make-up shows up and says, "Whatever Mick says is right." I said, "Oh, shut-up. You know, you had your blood changed to Canada. We haven't heard from you for 15 years. Go away." And then Jagger says, "You such and such and such and such, record executive." It's 3:00 in the morning and I sort of had enough. And I pulled back my fist. I'm generally pretty good physical shape. Jagger must weigh at least 98 pounds. And I started to grab his throat and I was going to hit him. And I said to myself, "Don't do it, don't do it, don't do it."
It was you guys in the media...
LIN: Oh, God.
YETNIKOFF: ...who actually kept me awake. So I was thinking of the headline. You know, "Record Executive Kills Mick Jagger in French Hotel."
LIN: Well, you're making different headlines today. I know you're watching current events closely, knowing Michael Jackson. I know you think it is a sad story. So we appreciate the time that you have for us, Walter Yetnikoff.
YETNIKOFF: Thank you.
LIN: Well, despite the recent events overseas, do you think the world is a safer place today? Answer, our last call question of the night. Well, straight ahead, we're going to have those answers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: This is a rap for us. A quick check of the day's top stories just a minute away. But before we go, here are your thoughts on tonight's last call question, is the world safer today?
CALLER: Absolutely. As a member of the military armed services, I know it's safer today without Saddam Hussein.
CALLER: I absolutely do not feel that the world is safer today. I feel that as Americans, we're walking around with targets on our heads. CALLER: No, I do not think the world is safer today. I think we are in a much dire situation.
CALLER: Now I do think the world is safer today.
CALLER: No, I don't think the world is safer today. I think we're worse off than we were.
CALLER: Not safe. Can you imagine if all that money spent in Iraq would have been spent on homeland security?
CALLER: Yes, I do think the world is safer today. Thanks to President Bush and that lieutenant that was killed.
CALLER: No, I don't believe the world is any safer today than it was when September 11th happened.
CALLER: The world is much less safe today than it was after 9/11 because of the reckless policies of this administration.
CALLER: I do think the world is safer today. And I believe that our U.S. troops are serving our nation and our country.
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Yetnikoff; Utah Woman Refuses C-Section, Charged With Murder>
