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American Morning
Interview With Former Assistant Secretary of State James Rubin; Antiwar Protests
Aired March 15, 2004 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
This morning, we talk with former Assistant U.S. Secretary of State Jamie Rubin -- just a few minutes away actually -- about the stunning elections in Spain. Did support for the U.S. doom the ruling party? And just how serious a blow is this for the Bush administration? Some of the questions we'll ask him.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, also this hour, Jerry Dyer -- you may have followed this story from over the weekend -- the police chief in Fresco, California, talking about that unbelievable case there. Nine family members killed in a bizarre crime. The story involves possible incest and cult rituals. We'll get the latest from Fresno on that as well this morning.
O'BRIEN: The details are so awful in that case.
HEMMER: Oh, yes, very gruesome.
O'BRIEN: Other top stories this morning.
One of President Bush's staunchest allies in the war in Iraq, Spain's Jose Maria Aznar has been voted out of office. The winner in yesterday's election in Spain now says he plans to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq by the summer.
Meanwhile, authorities are questioning suspects in connection with last week's attack in Madrid. Authorities say at least one of the suspects has possible links to al Qaeda. Former Assistant Secretary of State Jamie Rubin will join us with more on this in just a few moments.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has won a second term in office. In a televised news conference, Putin thanked voters for turning out to the elections. Preliminary results show Putin with more than 70 percent of the vote. The elections were criticized by some U.S. officials for their lack of openness.
Ousted Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide is apparently returning to the Caribbean. Aristide is presumably on the way to Jamaica. This is Aristide's first visit to the region since fleeing to the Central African Republic two weeks ago. His visit is not expected to last more than 8 or 10 weeks. And the curtain has come down on Luciano Pavarotti's final stage opera performance at the New York Met. Pavarotti went out on a high note last night as the world's most famous tenor took a final bow at the Metropolitan Opera House. The 68-year-old will now begin a farewell tour around the world and plans to officially retire at the end of next year.
HEMMER: He's going to enjoy that round-tripper, won't he? Wow!
(WEATHER BREAK)
HEMMER: Spain can truly be called a changing nation today after the massive attacks on those commuter trains last Thursday. Two hundred are dead, 1,500 wounded, when 10 bombs exploded Thursday morning, many simultaneously.
The handling of the attacks is being blamed by many for the defeat of the popular conservative government in yesterday's general election. Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's victory is also being seen as a repudiation of Spain's support for the Iraq war. He's already said he will take out Spain's 1,300 troops from Iraq at the end of June, the day an Iraqi interim government is set to take charge, unless there is a U.S. resolution passed that authorizes an international force in Iraq.
From London to talk more about it, former Assistant Secretary of State James Rubin. We welcome him back to AMERICAN MORNING. At the outset we should point out, most recently to help work on behalf of Wesley Clark's campaign here in the U.S., and we'll get that on the table.
And I want to get your reaction to what we're hearing today in the U.S. papers. "USA Today," front page, Randall Larson (ph), a security consultant, is quoted as saying: "This event rivals 9/11 in terms of a victory for al Qaeda. They just influenced an election."
Do you agree or disagree with statements like that today?
JAMES RUBIN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think there are several things coming out of this election news in Spain. If al Qaeda was responsible, I think it's a fair point to make that, as tragic as it is, as temporary as it is, al Qaeda had a tactical victory. They contributed to the overthrow of a government. But they probably couldn't have done so had that government behaved responsibly, had that government not played politics with national security.
The real repudiation, I think, came when the Spanish government jumped to conclusions and played politics with this tragedy by immediately pointing the finger to its domestic terrorist organization, ETA, rather than waiting for the facts to determine who was responsible. Voters recoiled at this. They regarded the government as playing politics with this terrible tragedy, and I think that's the one sure lesson. Whether al Qaeda was responsible, whether they ended up overthrowing the government, I think, is a longer term conclusion. HEMMER: But even in the early hours, Jamie, you'd admit that the evidence was not clear who was responsible, and even to this day it is still not certain.
RUBIN: Well, absolutely. And so, what the government ought to have done is held its tongue, say there were several suspects, followed the leads where they came. But in the early days of this tragedy, the government was ridiculing anybody who suggested it might not be ETA. They called them the prime suspect. They referred, with reason, to things that might make ETA responsible.
But instead of holding back, acting responsibly, waiting for the facts to come in, they appeared, at least to the voters, to be trying to play politics with this issue by showing that it wasn't al Qaeda, and therefore the Spanish government's closeness to President Bush didn't make Spain vulnerable, and also by showing that its hard line against ETA and its tough line on terrorism was vindicated.
So, they played this very, very badly. But I do think that some will conclude al Qaeda had a tactical victory here.
HEMMER: Yes, is there any evidence, Jamie, that suggests al Qaeda cares about influencing national elections such as what we saw over the weekend?
RUBIN: Well, I don't know that they really distinguish between a socialist and a conservative government in Spain, but they do care about showing their power. That's what 9/11 was about -- this terrible tragedy where they were able to bring New York to a standstill. And they care about showing that they are still alive and well and can affect international politics. I don't think they much care who the government of Spain is.
So, in the end, what's very, very important here is that we not only remember the political election yesterday, but also remember the 12 million Spaniards who went out on the streets Friday night, who all collectively, whatever party they came from, were rejecting al Qaeda, were acting in solidarity with all the Spanish people. And that's the message we have to hold on to as we move forward in fighting al Qaeda around the world.
HEMMER: It was quite a sight in Madrid on Friday night. Good to see you, Jamie. Thanks again for your time here. Jamie Rubin, nice to see you.
RUBIN: Thank you.
HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Anti-war protesters are marching on Washington today; 564 American troops have died in Iraq this year since the U.S. invaded that country. The protests began yesterday outside Dover Air Force Base in Maryland, where the bodies of U.S. service people are returned.
Elaine Quijano has this report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jane Bright carries with her a burden she hopes no other family will have to endure.
JANE BRIGHT, MOTHER OF SOLDIER KILLED IN IRAQ: He was beautiful. He was 24 years old. He was a gifted student.
QUIJANO: Last summer, Bright sat vigil for two nights beside her son's body at a funeral home in California. Her son, Sergeant Evan Ashcraft with the 101st Airborne Division, was killed in an attack near Mosul, Iraq, last July.
JIM BRIGHT, FATHER OF SOLDIER KILLED IN IRAQ: And he died with something I think was a mistake -- a big, huge mistake. And it's a horrible waste, and it has to be changed.
QUIJANO: Bright was among several hundred antiwar demonstrators. Among them: veterans, peace activists and parents, many of whom marched several miles to Delaware's Dover Air Force Base, where the remains of U.S. service men and women first return home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John P. Rivero (ph), 23, U.S. Army.
QUIJANO: Along the way, they read the names of those killed in the Iraq War -- Americans and Iraqis alike.
They then gathered and remembered those lost near the mortuary where their loved ones once lay.
JANE BRIGHT: I want to, in my mind, memorialize my son's journey home from Iraq.
QUIJANO: Their message? Peace and the safe return of American troops from Iraq, as well as the hope that people remember their loved ones' sacrifices.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want the American public to not lose sight as they go about their daily lives that people are still dying.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: And here in Washington, outside the gates of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, demonstrators are expected to start gathering in about an hour and a half. They'll listen to a few speeches, and then begin the march several miles through Washington, eventually winding up across the street from the White House at Lafayette Park. There, they will again read the names of those killed in the Iraqi conflict.
All of this timed to coincide with the one-year anniversary later this week of the start of the Iraq war -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Elaine Quijano in Washington for us this morning. Elaine, thanks -- Bill. HEMMER: About 19 minutes before the hour now.
New details are expected today about the grizzly murders discovered Friday in Fresno, California. Police suspect that Marcus Wesson killed nine of his children and grandchildren. Wesson may have fathered two of the children by his own daughters.
The police chief, Jerry Dyer, is with us live today from Fresno to talk about it.
Sir, we welcome you here to AMERICAN MORNING, and thank you for your time and getting up early today.
What have you learned from Marcus Wesson over the weekend, sir?
CHIEF JERRY DYER, FRESNO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, he's been cooperative throughout the investigation, throughout the interview process with investigators. He is now booked into Fresno County Jail, and is charged with nine counts of murder.
Since that time, we've gone back out to his residence and picked up some additional material that we feel will help us to better establish the motive as to why these murders occurred. And so, we're continuing with that part of the investigation today.
HEMMER: You say he's cooperating. In what way? Can you share that with us?
DYER: He's communicated with us. He is making sure that he is talking with investigators. He's, obviously, not telling the investigators everything we want to know, but at least at this point we do have some open dialogue with him.
HEMMER: Can you share with our viewers and us here at CNN the cause of death from last week?
DYER: Yes, the coroner's office released some preliminary information yesterday. Autopsies were conducted on four of the victims, and the cause of death on those four is from gunshot wounds. The other five autopsies have not been completed, but the coroner stated that the preliminary findings are that they suspect that gunshot wounds are also responsible for those, just based on the consistency of the wounds of all nine victims.
HEMMER: Is it your belief that Marcus Wesson fired those shots?
DYER: We believe that Marcus Wesson is the person responsible for the nine murders. That doesn't mean that as an agency we have ruled out the possibility that any other suspects may be involved. We don't want to become too narrowly focused in our investigation to exclude anyone. But we do believe, absolutely, that he is responsible for the murder of all nine victims.
HEMMER: And if you could shed some light on this, why were there coffins inside the home? And why did at least three of the women always wear black skirts and blouses, along with high heels? Can you explain that at this point?
DYER: Well, there were actually, initially we reported 10 coffins. We found out there were 12 coffins inside of the home. We're not certain as to why they were there. We have had conflicting reports as to him using the material for things such as refurbishing a boat or building furniture. It is possible that the coffins were going to be used in relationship to the murders.
In terms of his lifestyle and the dress of the women, we've heard from the neighbors that they were very isolated. He was a controlling person, very controlling of the children, controlling of the women. And that their dress was unique, very conservative.
And so, we're looking at all of the aspects as to the lifestyle, which may give us a better feel as to what the motive was.
HEMMER: Thank you, Chief. Jerry Dyer is the police chief there in Fresno, California. Best of luck to you in your investigation going forward. Thanks again.
O'BRIEN: Really, what a horrible story. Wow! And I'm sure as the details continue to come out.
Still to come this morning in our next hour, evidence is piling up in the Jayson Williams' trial. Some legal perspective on whether the former NBA star should take the stand on his own behalf.
HEMMER: Also, "The Passion of the Christ" has made more than a quarter of a billion dollars. In a moment, "90-Second Pop," our panel, takes a shot at who is going to see this film across the country and across the world.
Back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Oh, we're going to talk about that kiss this morning. It's time now for a little something, something that we like to call "90-Second Pop."
In today's episode, the Donald, the David and the "Passion" pays again.
Here to discuss, humorist Andy Borowitz, the author of "Governor Arnold." Toure is a contributing editor for "Rolling Stone" magazine. And B.J. Sigesmund is a staff editor for "US Weekly."
Good morning to all of you.
TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: We're all over the place this morning.
ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: Very confusing.
TOURE: Toure and B.J.
BOROWITZ: Let's get their bearings.
O'BRIEN: Everybody, just pick the name you want to use today. Anybody can answer.
Let's start with "Curb your Enthusiasm." This is a Larry David (ph) project, which has gotten great critical reviews. Still a relatively small audience -- the, like, hard-core audience. So, what was the end of the season episode like? Was it funny? And do you think they're -- what's going to happen with it?
BOROWITZ: Well, it's hilarious. I mean, I was out at the Aston (ph) Comedy Festival a week ago, and Larry David (ph) did a big panel on it. I mean, he's got just fans just have such intensity. I mean, the thing is bound to just keep building.
But the last episode, the whole theme of this year's season has been about him subbing in the producers on Broadway, even though he has no apparent singing or dancing talent.
TOURE: Or dancing.
BOROWITZ: And also, he's had this deal with his wife, which is that on their anniversary he could have sex with another woman, which almost came off last night until he was in the woman's dressing room and saw a photograph of President Bush, and that wrecked it for him. That wrecked the moment for him.
B.J. SIGESMUND, STAFF EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": He is such a jerk. You know, he's so sarcastic and he's so immature. And I just watch it, and I'm, like, 'I hate you! I hate you!' But, you know, you can't just stop watching it.
O'BRIEN: But it's so funny.
TOURE: This is exactly why you watch it. He's such a jerk that it reminds you how to be a decent person in society. So, you know, like, this is the boundaries of behavior...
SIGESMUND: Oh, exactly.
O'BRIEN: I have a girlfriend who tells me the episodes, and it's like -- but then you're, like, that sounds horrible.
TOURE: But then, he's always doing something -- one thing that's, like, totally reasonable. Like, if I was fooling around with some girl and she had a picture of Bush in her room, I'd be I'm out of here.
BOROWITZ: Well, I was wondering what...
TOURE: No way.
BOROWITZ: I was wondering what President bush thought. I mean, I remembered he goes to bed at 10:00, because he will never see this show.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: All right, let's turn and talk...
SIGESMUND: Also, I love the wife, the long-suffering wife.
BOROWITZ: Sean (ph). Sean (ph).
SIGESMUND: She's so terrific.
TOURE: Yes, there is no reason why she stays with him, and yet she does.
O'BRIEN: Many more people are watching "The Apprentice." It's become this huge phenomenon.
TOURE: Oh, I love the apprentice! This is smart reality TV, people trying to get a job and doing these fun tasks. There's all of this sociological stuff. There is Carolyn (ph), Trump's executive, who hates all the women on the show. She's always bashing them. She is so white. She looks like she's already dead. And then there's Amarosa (ph), who's like so...
O'BRIEN: She's gone.
TOURE: She's gone, and it's so good.
O'BRIEN: Throw out the "n" word, she says.
TOURE: Get another black person on reality TV that makes black people look bad, that's so mean and hateful. Like, why do we get in these reality shows? And, you know, it's hard to be around a whole group of white people, but, I mean, like, they always are embarrassing us.
SIGESMUND: I want to talk about the Donald, because, you know, I grew up in the '80s and he was a big deal the mid-'80s. And then throughout the '90s, he was a big joke. You know, he was like a Trivial Pursuit answer by the end of the '90s. And now suddenly he...
O'BRIEN: Comeback.
SIGESMUND: He's back again.
O'BRIEN: Who knew?
SIGESMUND: He saw something in reality television. He saw a way to create a comeback for himself, and now he has this autobiography coming out, more seasons of "The Apprentice." Brilliant.
O'BRIEN: There are lots of second and third acts.
Let's talk a little bit about "The Passion of the Christ." A quarter of a billion dollars. There have got to be people in Hollywood who are saying -- because, remember, everybody was mocking Mel Gibson, how much he was going to lose? Would it be 30 million of his own money, 15 million of his own money? SIGESMUND: You know, everyone in Hollywood has, in looking at this, and thinking how can we recapture this?
O'BRIEN: Can they?
SIGESMUND: Well, the marketing...
BOROWITZ: They're going to -- Hollywood loves the Bible, because you don't have to pay the writer. So, they are going to be all over this.
SIGESMUND: Well, marketing departments realize what a genius -- how genius Gibson was with this.
O'BRIEN: But it's not just picking a story out of the Bible and just...
(CROSSTALK)
SIGESMUND: No, no, no.
O'BRIEN: I mean, that's the point right?
SIGESMUND: And you could create more Bible-based movies that would totally flop. The trick here is that there's a huge controversy around it. Mel Gibson refused to take on his critics. So now, the entire country feels like they've got to go see this movie and make up their own mind. And that's why you are seeing all this business. And, you know, faith-based groups are going also.
O'BRIEN: So just to see it. It has nothing to do with the movie. It's just make sure, if you want your movie to succeed, generate a big controversy, keep your mouth shut and make everybody crazy.
SIGESMUND: Yes.
BOROWITZ: I'm developing a blockbuster about Porem (ph) right now, which I'm very excited about. I think it's going to do really well.
SIGESMUND: You know, he captured lightning in a bottle, and you just -- you can't do that. You can't plan that. Hundreds of publicists couldn't have created this much publicity around this movie.
O'BRIEN: Well, I haven't seen a good Porem (ph) movie lately.
SIGESMUND: No, no.
O'BRIEN: Toure is like, what the heck is Porem (ph). All right...
TOURE: I was trying to keep that to myself, but you figured me out. O'BRIEN: We are out of time. All right, as always, you guys, thanks so much -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad, thanks.
Jack's back in a moment looking at your e-mails online. More reflections on what's happening in Spain and perhaps the influence here.
Also, medical news, a breakthrough on baldness. How long will it take, though, for scientists to transfer what they've learned in the lab to the top of your head?
Back in a moment with that and more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Some new hope this morning for the folically- challenged. A new study shows that bald mice can grow hair after being implanted with a type of stem cell. It has some scientists saying that the treatment could lead to a cure for baldness. Don't get too excited, though. They say any cure would still be years away.
HEMMER: You know, ever since I got my toupee, I haven't had to worry about that.
O'BRIEN: It looks good.
HEMMER: Yes, grab that bad boy.
O'BRIEN: How much did you pay for that? Big bucks?
HEMMER: Yes. Fifteen.
The question of the day, a serious topic this morning with Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it is, actually, Bill. Thank you.
Yesterday's upset in the Spanish elections could be bad news for the Bush administration. Prime Minister Aznar in Spain, a key ally of the United States in the war in Iraq, had a comfortable lead in the polls going into last week's train bombings in Madrid. Suddenly he was out as of yesterday.
The new socialist leader says he will now withdraw Spain's troops from Iraq -- a shift in foreign policy away from the United States and toward European allies like France and Germany.
So, it ought to be interesting to explore this idea of whether or not the election results in Spain mean that the terrorists are winning. We're getting a lot of mail.
Charlie in Virginia writes this: "Do the Spanish people realize what they've done? They allowed the terrorists to win and get their way. The terrorists turned a popular election by causing fear, just what they planned to do. The Spanish think they can sweep the terrorists under the carpet and they'll go away. Wrong."
Saffar in Dayton, Ohio: "Is this ironic or what? We get bombed and two tyrannical regimes are gone." Afghanistan, Iraq. "Europeans get bombed, and their own government is gone. I'm afraid that meant mission accomplished for the terrorists."
And Leah in New Braunfels, Texas: "This question is reducing the whole of Spanish politics, economy, foreign and domestic policy -- you name it -- into one simplistic theory. CNN's questions have been more intelligent than this in the past. Who put you guys up to this?" I thought of this all by myself. Nobody put me up to it.
O'BRIEN: Wow! Leah is not loving "The Question of the Day" this morning.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Feel free, Leah, to send your suggestion of questions along. I'm not above using anybody else's ideas.
O'BRIEN: Got something else?
CAFFERTY: I do it often.
O'BRIEN: Absolutely.
Still to come this morning, Spain's prime minister-elect is now vowing, as we just heard, to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq as the investigation into last week's deadly attacks move forward. We update you on this story live to Madrid just ahead.
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Rubin; Antiwar Protests>
Aired March 15, 2004 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
This morning, we talk with former Assistant U.S. Secretary of State Jamie Rubin -- just a few minutes away actually -- about the stunning elections in Spain. Did support for the U.S. doom the ruling party? And just how serious a blow is this for the Bush administration? Some of the questions we'll ask him.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, also this hour, Jerry Dyer -- you may have followed this story from over the weekend -- the police chief in Fresco, California, talking about that unbelievable case there. Nine family members killed in a bizarre crime. The story involves possible incest and cult rituals. We'll get the latest from Fresno on that as well this morning.
O'BRIEN: The details are so awful in that case.
HEMMER: Oh, yes, very gruesome.
O'BRIEN: Other top stories this morning.
One of President Bush's staunchest allies in the war in Iraq, Spain's Jose Maria Aznar has been voted out of office. The winner in yesterday's election in Spain now says he plans to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq by the summer.
Meanwhile, authorities are questioning suspects in connection with last week's attack in Madrid. Authorities say at least one of the suspects has possible links to al Qaeda. Former Assistant Secretary of State Jamie Rubin will join us with more on this in just a few moments.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has won a second term in office. In a televised news conference, Putin thanked voters for turning out to the elections. Preliminary results show Putin with more than 70 percent of the vote. The elections were criticized by some U.S. officials for their lack of openness.
Ousted Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide is apparently returning to the Caribbean. Aristide is presumably on the way to Jamaica. This is Aristide's first visit to the region since fleeing to the Central African Republic two weeks ago. His visit is not expected to last more than 8 or 10 weeks. And the curtain has come down on Luciano Pavarotti's final stage opera performance at the New York Met. Pavarotti went out on a high note last night as the world's most famous tenor took a final bow at the Metropolitan Opera House. The 68-year-old will now begin a farewell tour around the world and plans to officially retire at the end of next year.
HEMMER: He's going to enjoy that round-tripper, won't he? Wow!
(WEATHER BREAK)
HEMMER: Spain can truly be called a changing nation today after the massive attacks on those commuter trains last Thursday. Two hundred are dead, 1,500 wounded, when 10 bombs exploded Thursday morning, many simultaneously.
The handling of the attacks is being blamed by many for the defeat of the popular conservative government in yesterday's general election. Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's victory is also being seen as a repudiation of Spain's support for the Iraq war. He's already said he will take out Spain's 1,300 troops from Iraq at the end of June, the day an Iraqi interim government is set to take charge, unless there is a U.S. resolution passed that authorizes an international force in Iraq.
From London to talk more about it, former Assistant Secretary of State James Rubin. We welcome him back to AMERICAN MORNING. At the outset we should point out, most recently to help work on behalf of Wesley Clark's campaign here in the U.S., and we'll get that on the table.
And I want to get your reaction to what we're hearing today in the U.S. papers. "USA Today," front page, Randall Larson (ph), a security consultant, is quoted as saying: "This event rivals 9/11 in terms of a victory for al Qaeda. They just influenced an election."
Do you agree or disagree with statements like that today?
JAMES RUBIN, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I think there are several things coming out of this election news in Spain. If al Qaeda was responsible, I think it's a fair point to make that, as tragic as it is, as temporary as it is, al Qaeda had a tactical victory. They contributed to the overthrow of a government. But they probably couldn't have done so had that government behaved responsibly, had that government not played politics with national security.
The real repudiation, I think, came when the Spanish government jumped to conclusions and played politics with this tragedy by immediately pointing the finger to its domestic terrorist organization, ETA, rather than waiting for the facts to determine who was responsible. Voters recoiled at this. They regarded the government as playing politics with this terrible tragedy, and I think that's the one sure lesson. Whether al Qaeda was responsible, whether they ended up overthrowing the government, I think, is a longer term conclusion. HEMMER: But even in the early hours, Jamie, you'd admit that the evidence was not clear who was responsible, and even to this day it is still not certain.
RUBIN: Well, absolutely. And so, what the government ought to have done is held its tongue, say there were several suspects, followed the leads where they came. But in the early days of this tragedy, the government was ridiculing anybody who suggested it might not be ETA. They called them the prime suspect. They referred, with reason, to things that might make ETA responsible.
But instead of holding back, acting responsibly, waiting for the facts to come in, they appeared, at least to the voters, to be trying to play politics with this issue by showing that it wasn't al Qaeda, and therefore the Spanish government's closeness to President Bush didn't make Spain vulnerable, and also by showing that its hard line against ETA and its tough line on terrorism was vindicated.
So, they played this very, very badly. But I do think that some will conclude al Qaeda had a tactical victory here.
HEMMER: Yes, is there any evidence, Jamie, that suggests al Qaeda cares about influencing national elections such as what we saw over the weekend?
RUBIN: Well, I don't know that they really distinguish between a socialist and a conservative government in Spain, but they do care about showing their power. That's what 9/11 was about -- this terrible tragedy where they were able to bring New York to a standstill. And they care about showing that they are still alive and well and can affect international politics. I don't think they much care who the government of Spain is.
So, in the end, what's very, very important here is that we not only remember the political election yesterday, but also remember the 12 million Spaniards who went out on the streets Friday night, who all collectively, whatever party they came from, were rejecting al Qaeda, were acting in solidarity with all the Spanish people. And that's the message we have to hold on to as we move forward in fighting al Qaeda around the world.
HEMMER: It was quite a sight in Madrid on Friday night. Good to see you, Jamie. Thanks again for your time here. Jamie Rubin, nice to see you.
RUBIN: Thank you.
HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Anti-war protesters are marching on Washington today; 564 American troops have died in Iraq this year since the U.S. invaded that country. The protests began yesterday outside Dover Air Force Base in Maryland, where the bodies of U.S. service people are returned.
Elaine Quijano has this report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jane Bright carries with her a burden she hopes no other family will have to endure.
JANE BRIGHT, MOTHER OF SOLDIER KILLED IN IRAQ: He was beautiful. He was 24 years old. He was a gifted student.
QUIJANO: Last summer, Bright sat vigil for two nights beside her son's body at a funeral home in California. Her son, Sergeant Evan Ashcraft with the 101st Airborne Division, was killed in an attack near Mosul, Iraq, last July.
JIM BRIGHT, FATHER OF SOLDIER KILLED IN IRAQ: And he died with something I think was a mistake -- a big, huge mistake. And it's a horrible waste, and it has to be changed.
QUIJANO: Bright was among several hundred antiwar demonstrators. Among them: veterans, peace activists and parents, many of whom marched several miles to Delaware's Dover Air Force Base, where the remains of U.S. service men and women first return home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John P. Rivero (ph), 23, U.S. Army.
QUIJANO: Along the way, they read the names of those killed in the Iraq War -- Americans and Iraqis alike.
They then gathered and remembered those lost near the mortuary where their loved ones once lay.
JANE BRIGHT: I want to, in my mind, memorialize my son's journey home from Iraq.
QUIJANO: Their message? Peace and the safe return of American troops from Iraq, as well as the hope that people remember their loved ones' sacrifices.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want the American public to not lose sight as they go about their daily lives that people are still dying.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: And here in Washington, outside the gates of Walter Reed Army Medical Center, demonstrators are expected to start gathering in about an hour and a half. They'll listen to a few speeches, and then begin the march several miles through Washington, eventually winding up across the street from the White House at Lafayette Park. There, they will again read the names of those killed in the Iraqi conflict.
All of this timed to coincide with the one-year anniversary later this week of the start of the Iraq war -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Elaine Quijano in Washington for us this morning. Elaine, thanks -- Bill. HEMMER: About 19 minutes before the hour now.
New details are expected today about the grizzly murders discovered Friday in Fresno, California. Police suspect that Marcus Wesson killed nine of his children and grandchildren. Wesson may have fathered two of the children by his own daughters.
The police chief, Jerry Dyer, is with us live today from Fresno to talk about it.
Sir, we welcome you here to AMERICAN MORNING, and thank you for your time and getting up early today.
What have you learned from Marcus Wesson over the weekend, sir?
CHIEF JERRY DYER, FRESNO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, he's been cooperative throughout the investigation, throughout the interview process with investigators. He is now booked into Fresno County Jail, and is charged with nine counts of murder.
Since that time, we've gone back out to his residence and picked up some additional material that we feel will help us to better establish the motive as to why these murders occurred. And so, we're continuing with that part of the investigation today.
HEMMER: You say he's cooperating. In what way? Can you share that with us?
DYER: He's communicated with us. He is making sure that he is talking with investigators. He's, obviously, not telling the investigators everything we want to know, but at least at this point we do have some open dialogue with him.
HEMMER: Can you share with our viewers and us here at CNN the cause of death from last week?
DYER: Yes, the coroner's office released some preliminary information yesterday. Autopsies were conducted on four of the victims, and the cause of death on those four is from gunshot wounds. The other five autopsies have not been completed, but the coroner stated that the preliminary findings are that they suspect that gunshot wounds are also responsible for those, just based on the consistency of the wounds of all nine victims.
HEMMER: Is it your belief that Marcus Wesson fired those shots?
DYER: We believe that Marcus Wesson is the person responsible for the nine murders. That doesn't mean that as an agency we have ruled out the possibility that any other suspects may be involved. We don't want to become too narrowly focused in our investigation to exclude anyone. But we do believe, absolutely, that he is responsible for the murder of all nine victims.
HEMMER: And if you could shed some light on this, why were there coffins inside the home? And why did at least three of the women always wear black skirts and blouses, along with high heels? Can you explain that at this point?
DYER: Well, there were actually, initially we reported 10 coffins. We found out there were 12 coffins inside of the home. We're not certain as to why they were there. We have had conflicting reports as to him using the material for things such as refurbishing a boat or building furniture. It is possible that the coffins were going to be used in relationship to the murders.
In terms of his lifestyle and the dress of the women, we've heard from the neighbors that they were very isolated. He was a controlling person, very controlling of the children, controlling of the women. And that their dress was unique, very conservative.
And so, we're looking at all of the aspects as to the lifestyle, which may give us a better feel as to what the motive was.
HEMMER: Thank you, Chief. Jerry Dyer is the police chief there in Fresno, California. Best of luck to you in your investigation going forward. Thanks again.
O'BRIEN: Really, what a horrible story. Wow! And I'm sure as the details continue to come out.
Still to come this morning in our next hour, evidence is piling up in the Jayson Williams' trial. Some legal perspective on whether the former NBA star should take the stand on his own behalf.
HEMMER: Also, "The Passion of the Christ" has made more than a quarter of a billion dollars. In a moment, "90-Second Pop," our panel, takes a shot at who is going to see this film across the country and across the world.
Back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Oh, we're going to talk about that kiss this morning. It's time now for a little something, something that we like to call "90-Second Pop."
In today's episode, the Donald, the David and the "Passion" pays again.
Here to discuss, humorist Andy Borowitz, the author of "Governor Arnold." Toure is a contributing editor for "Rolling Stone" magazine. And B.J. Sigesmund is a staff editor for "US Weekly."
Good morning to all of you.
TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: We're all over the place this morning.
ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: Very confusing.
TOURE: Toure and B.J.
BOROWITZ: Let's get their bearings.
O'BRIEN: Everybody, just pick the name you want to use today. Anybody can answer.
Let's start with "Curb your Enthusiasm." This is a Larry David (ph) project, which has gotten great critical reviews. Still a relatively small audience -- the, like, hard-core audience. So, what was the end of the season episode like? Was it funny? And do you think they're -- what's going to happen with it?
BOROWITZ: Well, it's hilarious. I mean, I was out at the Aston (ph) Comedy Festival a week ago, and Larry David (ph) did a big panel on it. I mean, he's got just fans just have such intensity. I mean, the thing is bound to just keep building.
But the last episode, the whole theme of this year's season has been about him subbing in the producers on Broadway, even though he has no apparent singing or dancing talent.
TOURE: Or dancing.
BOROWITZ: And also, he's had this deal with his wife, which is that on their anniversary he could have sex with another woman, which almost came off last night until he was in the woman's dressing room and saw a photograph of President Bush, and that wrecked it for him. That wrecked the moment for him.
B.J. SIGESMUND, STAFF EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": He is such a jerk. You know, he's so sarcastic and he's so immature. And I just watch it, and I'm, like, 'I hate you! I hate you!' But, you know, you can't just stop watching it.
O'BRIEN: But it's so funny.
TOURE: This is exactly why you watch it. He's such a jerk that it reminds you how to be a decent person in society. So, you know, like, this is the boundaries of behavior...
SIGESMUND: Oh, exactly.
O'BRIEN: I have a girlfriend who tells me the episodes, and it's like -- but then you're, like, that sounds horrible.
TOURE: But then, he's always doing something -- one thing that's, like, totally reasonable. Like, if I was fooling around with some girl and she had a picture of Bush in her room, I'd be I'm out of here.
BOROWITZ: Well, I was wondering what...
TOURE: No way.
BOROWITZ: I was wondering what President bush thought. I mean, I remembered he goes to bed at 10:00, because he will never see this show.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: All right, let's turn and talk...
SIGESMUND: Also, I love the wife, the long-suffering wife.
BOROWITZ: Sean (ph). Sean (ph).
SIGESMUND: She's so terrific.
TOURE: Yes, there is no reason why she stays with him, and yet she does.
O'BRIEN: Many more people are watching "The Apprentice." It's become this huge phenomenon.
TOURE: Oh, I love the apprentice! This is smart reality TV, people trying to get a job and doing these fun tasks. There's all of this sociological stuff. There is Carolyn (ph), Trump's executive, who hates all the women on the show. She's always bashing them. She is so white. She looks like she's already dead. And then there's Amarosa (ph), who's like so...
O'BRIEN: She's gone.
TOURE: She's gone, and it's so good.
O'BRIEN: Throw out the "n" word, she says.
TOURE: Get another black person on reality TV that makes black people look bad, that's so mean and hateful. Like, why do we get in these reality shows? And, you know, it's hard to be around a whole group of white people, but, I mean, like, they always are embarrassing us.
SIGESMUND: I want to talk about the Donald, because, you know, I grew up in the '80s and he was a big deal the mid-'80s. And then throughout the '90s, he was a big joke. You know, he was like a Trivial Pursuit answer by the end of the '90s. And now suddenly he...
O'BRIEN: Comeback.
SIGESMUND: He's back again.
O'BRIEN: Who knew?
SIGESMUND: He saw something in reality television. He saw a way to create a comeback for himself, and now he has this autobiography coming out, more seasons of "The Apprentice." Brilliant.
O'BRIEN: There are lots of second and third acts.
Let's talk a little bit about "The Passion of the Christ." A quarter of a billion dollars. There have got to be people in Hollywood who are saying -- because, remember, everybody was mocking Mel Gibson, how much he was going to lose? Would it be 30 million of his own money, 15 million of his own money? SIGESMUND: You know, everyone in Hollywood has, in looking at this, and thinking how can we recapture this?
O'BRIEN: Can they?
SIGESMUND: Well, the marketing...
BOROWITZ: They're going to -- Hollywood loves the Bible, because you don't have to pay the writer. So, they are going to be all over this.
SIGESMUND: Well, marketing departments realize what a genius -- how genius Gibson was with this.
O'BRIEN: But it's not just picking a story out of the Bible and just...
(CROSSTALK)
SIGESMUND: No, no, no.
O'BRIEN: I mean, that's the point right?
SIGESMUND: And you could create more Bible-based movies that would totally flop. The trick here is that there's a huge controversy around it. Mel Gibson refused to take on his critics. So now, the entire country feels like they've got to go see this movie and make up their own mind. And that's why you are seeing all this business. And, you know, faith-based groups are going also.
O'BRIEN: So just to see it. It has nothing to do with the movie. It's just make sure, if you want your movie to succeed, generate a big controversy, keep your mouth shut and make everybody crazy.
SIGESMUND: Yes.
BOROWITZ: I'm developing a blockbuster about Porem (ph) right now, which I'm very excited about. I think it's going to do really well.
SIGESMUND: You know, he captured lightning in a bottle, and you just -- you can't do that. You can't plan that. Hundreds of publicists couldn't have created this much publicity around this movie.
O'BRIEN: Well, I haven't seen a good Porem (ph) movie lately.
SIGESMUND: No, no.
O'BRIEN: Toure is like, what the heck is Porem (ph). All right...
TOURE: I was trying to keep that to myself, but you figured me out. O'BRIEN: We are out of time. All right, as always, you guys, thanks so much -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad, thanks.
Jack's back in a moment looking at your e-mails online. More reflections on what's happening in Spain and perhaps the influence here.
Also, medical news, a breakthrough on baldness. How long will it take, though, for scientists to transfer what they've learned in the lab to the top of your head?
Back in a moment with that and more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Some new hope this morning for the folically- challenged. A new study shows that bald mice can grow hair after being implanted with a type of stem cell. It has some scientists saying that the treatment could lead to a cure for baldness. Don't get too excited, though. They say any cure would still be years away.
HEMMER: You know, ever since I got my toupee, I haven't had to worry about that.
O'BRIEN: It looks good.
HEMMER: Yes, grab that bad boy.
O'BRIEN: How much did you pay for that? Big bucks?
HEMMER: Yes. Fifteen.
The question of the day, a serious topic this morning with Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it is, actually, Bill. Thank you.
Yesterday's upset in the Spanish elections could be bad news for the Bush administration. Prime Minister Aznar in Spain, a key ally of the United States in the war in Iraq, had a comfortable lead in the polls going into last week's train bombings in Madrid. Suddenly he was out as of yesterday.
The new socialist leader says he will now withdraw Spain's troops from Iraq -- a shift in foreign policy away from the United States and toward European allies like France and Germany.
So, it ought to be interesting to explore this idea of whether or not the election results in Spain mean that the terrorists are winning. We're getting a lot of mail.
Charlie in Virginia writes this: "Do the Spanish people realize what they've done? They allowed the terrorists to win and get their way. The terrorists turned a popular election by causing fear, just what they planned to do. The Spanish think they can sweep the terrorists under the carpet and they'll go away. Wrong."
Saffar in Dayton, Ohio: "Is this ironic or what? We get bombed and two tyrannical regimes are gone." Afghanistan, Iraq. "Europeans get bombed, and their own government is gone. I'm afraid that meant mission accomplished for the terrorists."
And Leah in New Braunfels, Texas: "This question is reducing the whole of Spanish politics, economy, foreign and domestic policy -- you name it -- into one simplistic theory. CNN's questions have been more intelligent than this in the past. Who put you guys up to this?" I thought of this all by myself. Nobody put me up to it.
O'BRIEN: Wow! Leah is not loving "The Question of the Day" this morning.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Feel free, Leah, to send your suggestion of questions along. I'm not above using anybody else's ideas.
O'BRIEN: Got something else?
CAFFERTY: I do it often.
O'BRIEN: Absolutely.
Still to come this morning, Spain's prime minister-elect is now vowing, as we just heard, to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq as the investigation into last week's deadly attacks move forward. We update you on this story live to Madrid just ahead.
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Rubin; Antiwar Protests>
