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CNN Live Today
Ohio Seeks Suspect in Freeway Shootings; American Civilian Dies from Wounds from Drive-By Shooting Yesterday in Mosul
Aired March 16, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are at CNN global headquarters. Good morning, I'm Daryn Kagan. We always start with the headlines.
Police in Ohio are looking for this man; 28-year-old Charles McCoy Jr. of Columbus is a suspect in the series of 24 highway shootings around the Columbus area since last May. Police have issued a warrant for his arrest. We have the latest in a live report just ahead.
In Baghdad, a fourth American civilian died overnight from wounds in a drive by shooting yesterday in Mosul. A fifth is being treated at a U.S. military hospital. The victims work for the Southern Baptist International Mission Board. They were said to be delivering relief supplies.
In western Pakistan, the search for terrorists intensifies. At least four Pakistani military forces are dead along with three others, after a battle in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistani forces are looking for suspected terrorists. Some believe Usama bin Laden may be hiding in that area.
The Reverend Al Sharpton is conceding defeat in his bid for the Democrats' presidential nomination; but he says he'll continue to campaign for what he calls "an urban agenda." Sharpton is endorsing presumptive nominee John Kerry. Congressman Dennis Kucinich also remains on the campaign trail.
And we're going to begin this morning in Ohio's capital city, where police have launched a nationwide manhunt for this man, 28 year- old Charles McCoy Jr. They believe he may be the gunman who opened fire on two-dozen motorists. Police say McCoy lived within miles of Interstate 270, the center of the month's long shooting spree that's left windshields shattered, school buses dented and at least one woman dead.
Sean Callebs is in Columbus with more on this latest update.
Good morning.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Daryn. On a cold, snowy day here in Columbus, we don't know if authorities are any closer to apprehending the suspect. But I spoke with an investigator a short while ago, and he told me since the news conference last night announcing 28 year old Charles McCoy was a suspect they have received, quote, "a ton of phone calls." And Corporal Mark Papas says right now they are in the initial phase of going through all that information trying to see if there's is anything there that will pan out.
But over and over again authorities have maintained that McCoy should be considered armed and dangerous, and they urged people not to try and approach him, certainly not to try and apprehend him under any circumstances. And talking with the investigators, they say that McCoy is suicidal with homicidal tendencies.
Now, McCoy also lives at home with his mother. And apparently had been under surveillance by authorities since last Friday. Sheriff's deputies have been very tight lipped about their investigation so far, until going public last night with that information.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE MARTIN, CHIEF DEPUTY, FRANKLIN COUNTY: The most important thing and the reason that we wanted to get this out, which we've done throughout this investigation, is to notify the public and you guys from the media, and get this information out as soon as possible. That is the key issue for us right now is to locate this guy. And when we do, we'll give you some additional information.
QUESTION: What makes you...
MARTIN: But right now that's the only information I'm going to give.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Why armed and dangerous? What makes you say he's armed and dangerous?
MARTIN: Because we believe he bought another gun, that's why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Well, McCoy is 5'7" weighs 185 pounds. And apparently drives a 1999 Chevy Metro. That's important, because all of that information fits description from some eyewitness at some of the various shootings. Now, McCoy is wanted on one count of felony -- felonious assault for allegedly firing a gun into a house. And a bullet fragment taken from that house also matches some of the fragments from at least eight other separate shootings.
And here's a bit of information that's going to be tough for people in this area if McCoy turns out to be the shooter. He apparently had been pulled over twice for speeding in the past year once in May 2003, once in November of 2003. On both occasions he ended up paying the tickets.
As Daryn mentioned, there have been 24 shootings in this area in the past 10 months or so, including one fatality, a 62-year-old woman who was shot on November 25 and died the next day.
Daryn, back to you.
KAGAN: Which leads me to a quick question, though. Why does he have only one count against him at this point -- Sean?
CALLEBS: Well, from the information they have given so far, there's only one count that he specifically fired that gun into a house. They have no other information apparently that connects him with firing at any of the other sites until more information is garnered, until they can bring him in and talk to him.
KAGAN: Sean Callebs in Columbus, thank you. We'll check back with you in the next hour.
And we encourage you to stay with us. Just a few minutes from now, we'll talk with a retired FBI agent, a former profiler, Candice DeLong. She will offer insights into this case. And this next story as well.
It is the latest bizarre twist in the murder of nine people inside a Fresno, California home. Authorities say there was a pattern to the shootings deaths of the woman and eight children; but they won't elaborate. They do say they have removed more evidence from the scene.
Our Rusty Dornin is in Fresno with the latest on this story -- Rusty.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, removal of that evidence was an eerie sight last night. Police went in and brought out 12 shiny, hand carved mahogany coffins. This is four days after the nine people were discovered murdered in the house.
Now, an antique storeowner claims that Mark Wesson, the suspect bought the coffins about five years ago; claimed he wanted to use the wood to repair a boat. Other people who had visited the house did see the coffins piled in the corner at the house.
Meantime, all nine autopsies have been completed. All died of gun shot wounds. Apparently the coroner says that she believes six -- there are six mothers of the victims but only one of the victims was a mother of one of the other victims. Also, toxicology tests are -- should be forth coming this week. We might learn more about whether any of the people were drugged before they were killed.
Police do say that the suspect, Marcus Wesson is calm, articulate and cooperative. And some people who know him say that they are still very shocked at what happened. One of the realtors that had the listing on the house said he used to go to the house to talk business with Wesson and said at that time there were no signs that the women were fearful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE CLARK, WESSON'S REALTOR: They stayed away from me. Basically I was there to see Marcus. And Marcus would walk me through the house. I had been through the house. I had been through the bedrooms. I have seen three kids in this bedroom and four in this kid -- and four in this bedroom or something.
DORNIN (on camera): Was it well kept?
CLARK: It was well kept. It was clean. There were no odors. They were kind of camped out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: The big question, of course, still is why? Police say they don't have a motive in these slayings. Meantime, Marcus Wesson is scheduled to be arraigned tomorrow -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Rusty Dornin with the latest from Fresno. Thank you, Rusty.
We want to take a closer look at both these top stories through the eyes of law enforcement professional. Candice DeLong, a retired FBI agent and profiler -- former profiler. She is the author of "Special Agent, My Life On The Front Lines." And she is up early with us this morning from San Francisco.
Candice, good morning.
CANDICE DELONG, FROMER FBI PROFILER: Good morning.
KAGAN: Let's start to the south of San Francisco in Fresno. Clearly something wasn't right. Even before this all took place, you have one man, a number of mothers, a number of children and what appears to be alleged incest as well.
DELONG: Mm-hmm. It looks like it's something that probably had been building for years. Although it is a little bit unusual to see a middle age man, 57, do something like this. Periodically we did see it. I used to be in the field of psychiatry before I was an agent. And sometimes these things happen later in life.
KAGAN: When you say a man this age, if you were going to see one man at the center of an odd family like this, you would expect it to be a younger man?
DELONG: Well oftentimes, what we see in family annihilators, people that kill their whole families, and sometimes that is the woman, or the mother of the children does it. But more often it is the man. And usually we see it usually between 40 and 50. And I believe Mr. Wesson is 57 years old.
KAGAN: Yes. And police have said that they're not shutting off the idea that other people could still be involved in this case and other charges filed.
DELONG: Right. I -- that's, of course, possible. I would be surprised to find out that there was anybody else involved or cert -- more than one person. That would surprise me.
KAGAN: All right. Let's look at the other case coming out of Columbus, Ohio. Police finally after all these months and these shootings, say they have a suspect. Late 20s, white male, Charles McCoy Jr. How does this fit with the profile you would expect in this case?
DELONG: Pretty much right on; these types of crimes are not committed by middle age men. I mean going out and taking shots at moving vehicles. Similarly, the fact that he got away with it for so long. He was fairly successful at keeping this going for a while, also, points to the fact that it wasn't a teenager doing it. So -- and it's usually these kinds of crimes are committed by white males, usually. And so, he really kind of fits right in the middle -- right in -- right on it there.
KAGAN: Yes. And we do have to say, of course, he's only been charged with one count, not with all the shootings. And it is alleged at this point. We can't just make the leap that he is guilty of the one charge that he has been charged with until he is found guilty.
How good though is profiling? You know, I can't help but think the sniper case I covered out of Washington, D.C.; this was the kind of person they were looking for. And of course, it turned out to be two African-American males of different ages.
DELONG: Right. Well, profiling is best utilized when there is a crime scene, there's interaction between the offender and the victim, such as murder in a home or something like that. Or rape/murder. These kinds of crimes, where you don't really have a crime scene, and the interaction between the offender and the victim is minimal other than the gunshot, are very difficult to profile other than to say, such as in the D.C. sniper case, statistically you are probably looking for this kind of person. And that's only in the absence of eyewitness identification.
KAGAN: Got it. Candice DeLong thanks for offering up your expertise. Appreciate it.
DELONG: You're welcome.
KAGAN: It has been three months since he was captured, but we have heard very little about Saddam Hussein. Christiane Amanpour is ahead with what is next for Saddam.
And the mother charged with murder for refusing a C-section says she's not guilty. A live report from Salt Lake City with new details in the case.
And later...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just instant. Just the next thing I knew, I was spinning through the air, like I was in a washing machine or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Not a typical day in the Colorado Mountains. A man's incredible story of survival is just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Well, the calendar says spring is just four days away. The yardstick shows it is out of reach. Some parts of the Midwest are digging out of more than a foot of snow. Des Moines, for example, got a record 15.4 inches. The late winter storm is plowing eastward. Parts of New England and northeast could see up to 10 inches.
New developments in the Madrid bombing investigation, as authorities zero in on more suspected terrorists. A live report from Spain is just ahead. Along with new insights into the way the terrorist group al Qaeda is evolving. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Spanish officials are trying to piece together the puzzling details of Thursday's train bombings. They say they've discovered new information. And there's been a new arrest in the Basque region of Spain.
Our Brent Sadler is on top of the story. He is in Madrid -- Brent.
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Daryn. Another bomb victim has died, bringing the death toll now to 201. More than 200 people remain in hospital after last Thursday's bomb attacks here in Madrid.
Now to the investigation, as you say. Basque police in northern Spain have picked up an Algerian not been identified, but he has been transferred to Madrid for further questioning. Also here, security sources telling CNN and Spain's top newspaper, "el Pais" that as many as six Moroccans, police believe, were involved in last Thursday's bomb attacks. One of those, a 30-year-old Moroccan male, has been in custody since last Saturday. That individual may have connections with some of those people who were arrested after last May's suicide bomb attacks in Casablanca. So a lot of connectivity there; investigators believing that there is now a multinational cell involved in last week's bomb attacks here.
Now to the political front. Spaniards are being promised a radical change in this country's foreign policy. Prime Minister designate Zapatero is saying that the country will withdraw Spanish drops on duty with the U.S. linked coalition in Iraq by June 30, unless there is a control is taken over there by the United Nations, with a new U.N. Security Council resolution. In addition to that, Mr. Zapatero has had some harsh words for the U.S. policy in Iraq, notably the war. He says the war, quote, "was a disaster and the occupation of Iraq today, a great disaster."
But at the same time, Mr. Zapatero is saying he will remain in close contact, good close relations with the Americans, with Washington. But even closer to Spain's more traditional allies, especially France and Germany -- Daryn. KAGAN: Brent a question for you on the investigation here. There's been some talk in the media about how the U.S. hasn't sent counter terrorism officials and experts to Spain like they would in other incidents. Any talk in Spain that they would like some more help from outside countries?
SADLER: Well, certainly there's cooperation on the European level. Moroccan investigators have been comparing notes with their Spanish counter parts here, because of that connection between the bombings blast May in Casablanca and last week's attack here's. And there is expected to be here in the coming days, a top-level meeting of European Union security experts to anti-terrorist experts, to pool resources and to exchange information. No word at this stage whether there will be any U.S. involvement directly in those top-level talks or at least on the sidelines -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Brent Sadler with the latest from Madrid. Brent, thank you.
And as police ponder the likelihood of an al Qaeda linked to the Madrid attacks, some terror experts are sure of one thing. There are splinter cells around the world. And al Qaeda is less a small, well- defined group and more like a radical movement of many different people.
Our Kelli Arena has more on that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. counter terrorism officials agree investigators will probably establish a definitive al Qaeda connection to the Spain bombings. But experts suggest the term al Qaeda is now just shorthand for a very complex, global terror network.
M.J. GOHEL, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: What we're dealing here with is an ideology. It's global Jihad movement, composed of al Qaeda and many affiliated terrorist groups. All of these groups are autonomous.
ARENA: Terrorism experts have long said al Qaeda was made up of loosely affiliated groups, but most attacks, including those on September 11, could eventually be traced back to Usama bin Laden or other leaders.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Some two- thirds of al Qaeda's key leaders have been captured or killed. The rest of them, hear us breathing down their neck.
ARENA: In part, the U.S.-led war on terror has created a new enemy by splintering the organization.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM EXPERT: This is not like a Gambino crime family or Mafia family, where if you arrest the leaders this goes out of business. This is more like a mass movement. And you can arrest as many people as you want, but it's very hard to arrest the movement of ideas.
ARENA: Counter terrorism officials say one of their biggest concerns is how U.S. actions, such as the war in Iraq, are motivating new recruits bound by a common goal, to destroy western secular society.
(on camera): Both government and private experts are bracing for what they say could be a war that will last for generations.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Charged with the murder of her unborn child, Melissa Rowland says she did not refuse to have a Caesarian Section. A live report from Utah is coming up next.
And a 12-year-old girl falls 45 feet from a freeway overpass. Her miracle story is just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Showing you some videotape now that was shot moments ago at the White House. President Bush with the prime minister of the Netherlands. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Here's what we're going to do.
We'll have a couple opening statements. I'll call upon American press; the prime minister will call upon somebody from the Dutch press. American press, Dutch press, and that's it.
Thank you all for coming.
Mr. Prime Minister, welcome. Glad you're back.
Thank you for your friendship. Thank you for your clear understanding about the need for us to work together to achieve a more free and peaceful world. I appreciate our bilateral relations are strong.
We had a wide-ranging discussion talking about a variety of issues, whether it be foreign policy or the economy. It was a good, frank discussion.
And I appreciate my friend being here again.
Welcome.
JAN PETER BALKENENDE, PRIME MINISTER OF THE NETHERLANDS: George, thanks again for the hospitality.
We had a very good discussion. We talked about issues around Iraq as well as the United Nations, for example. We talked about cooperation in the economic sphere, developments in Afghanistan. We also talked about values in society; important issue.
And especially we talked about terrorism -- the fight against terrorism. And it is important that the world society, international community stands shoulder to shoulder and shows its solidarity to fight against these terrible attacks. And we share that same view and we will work together.
Also in the second half of this year the Netherlands is taking up the presidency of the European Union.
BUSH: We'll have a couple of questions here.
QUESTION: Mr. President, do you think terrorists have reason to believe that they can influence elections and policy given the outcome of what happened in Spain?
BUSH: I think terrorists will kill innocent life in order to try to get the world to cower. I think these are cold-blooded killers. I mean, they'll kill innocent people to try to shake our will. That's what they want to do.
And they'll never shake the will of the United States. We understand the stakes. And we will work with our friends to bring justice to the terrorists.
They have not only killed in Spain, they've killed in the United States, they've killed in Turkey, they've killed in Saudi Arabia. They kill wherever they can. And it's essential that the free world remain strong and resolute and determined.
QUESTION: Mr. President, according to an opinion poll, most Dutch people want to withdraw the Dutch troops from Iraq. Many Dutch people think this war in Iraq has little to do with the war against terrorism and may actually encourage terrorism. How would you respond to those Dutch people who want to withdraw?
BUSH: Yes. I would ask them to think about the Iraqi citizens who don't want people to withdraw because they want to be free.
And I would remind the Dutch citizens that al Qaeda has an interest in Iraq for a reason, and that interest is they realize this is a front in the war on terror and they fear the spread of freedom and democracy in places like the greater Middle East. They can't stand the thought of free societies springing up in the Middle East because they understand a free society is against their very wishes.
BUSH: And so it's essential that we remain side-by-side with the Iraqi people as they begin the process of self-government.
And we're making good progress. The basic law that was written by the governing council is a substantial piece of work that talked about freedoms, the very same freedoms that we honor in America or in the Netherlands. And it's essential that we help Iraq and Afghanistan develop into free societies, which in itself will start changing the regions in which they exist.
QUESTION: Candidate Kerry has suggested he has support of world leaders. Do you think he should -- that should be a factor in the campaign? Was that an appropriate thing for him to say?
BUSH: I think it's -- if you're going to make an accusation in the course of a presidential campaign, you ought to back it up with facts.
QUESTION: Mr. President, have you convinced the prime minister of the Netherlands to leave the Dutch troops in Iraq?
BUSH: The prime minister will make the appropriate decision. It's his decision to make.
We both agree that a free Iraq is essential to a peaceful world. We both understand the stakes. We both know that al Qaeda is interested in fighting us in Iraq. How do we know? We know because they've said so publicly.
al Qaeda understands the stakes. Al Qaeda wants us out of Iraq because al Qaeda wants to use Iraq as an example of defeating freedom and democracy.
And so the prime minister has got issues at home that he'll deal with. But there's no doubt that he understands the stakes and the historic opportunity with which we're faced.
BALKENENDE: I was going to add that we did not talk about the situation after the 1st of July; that is the responsibility of the Dutch government and Dutch parliament, and we will talk about it, as I made it clear already earlier.
But I think it's very good to look always to the situation of the Iraq people and the international struggle against terrorism. Therefore, it's so important that countries are working together and they can draw the same lines. That's very important, but it has nothing to do, at this moment, with the decision-making as far as the situation after the 1st of July is concerned.
BUSH: Thanks. Good job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Listening in there to a quick talk between President Bush and the prime minister of the Netherlands. Topics coming up, the war in Iraq, the situation in Spain and the accusation by Senator Kerry that he is talking to different world leaders an he believes certain world leaders, who he will not name, believe they want to have him in power instead of President Bush. President Bush calling out Senator Kerry saying name some names.
We'll have more on this story just ahead. Right now we take a quick break and we're back with much more news after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: A Utah woman who's been charged murder for allegedly refusing to have a C-section has been talking to the media. Our Ted Rowlands joins us now with the latest from Salt Lake City. Ted, good morning.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.
Melissa Rowland has contacted a local newspaper here in Salt Lake and is now claiming that she never refused to have a C-section which of course is in direct contradiction to what the district attorney says happened, saying that she refused three times at three separate hospitals.
She also told this paper that she believes that she is being used by the state as an example. Meanwhile, she seems to be doing everything she can to get herself out of jail.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA ROWLAND, ACCUSED OF MURDER: The issue is that my bail is so high, your honor.
ROWLANDS (voice-over): After giving birth and after her arrest, 28-year-old Melissa Rowland not only tried convincing a judge to reduce her bail, but allegedly also tried scamming bail money from a local adoption agency.
According to the agency's director, Rowland called from jail claiming she was pregnant and would be willing to give up her fictitious child if she could get out of jail.
ANN LAMPHERE, DIR. OF ADOPT AN ANGEL: She's very good at manipulating. Very good at telling you what you want to hear.
ROWLANDS: Rowland is facing homicide charges for refusing medical advice at three separate Salt Lake City hospitals. According to court documents, doctors say a C-section could have saved her child's life.
Some mental health advocates are concerned that Rowland's actions, including an alleged statement to a nurse that she would rather lose a child than have a scar, indicates that she may be very unstable.
VICKY COTTRELL, NATL. ALLIANCE FOR THE MENTALLY ILL: This woman was not thinking rational. And it should have been picked up when she was exhibiting those behaviors.
ROWLANDS: Rowland's attorney says she has a history of mental illness.
KENT MORGAN, SPOKESMAN, SALT LAKE D.A.: And they've indicated that her difficulty is a failure to comply with authority. We have two prisons completely filled with people who are unable to comply with authority.
ROWLANDS: University of Utah law Professor Wayne McCormick says Rowland had a right to refuse the C-section.
WAYNE MCCORMICK, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH LAW SCHOOL: Her right to refuse surgery is her interest. And if she didn't like the color of the paint on the walls in the hospital she could leave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROWLANDS: Rowland was carrying twins. The other baby, a baby girl, was born with, according to the D.A. here, alcohol and cocaine in her system. That child has been taken out of state and is being cared for by a separate couple.
Meanwhile, Rowland was unable to make the $300,000 bail. She remains in custody -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And so, Ted, what is she exactly charged with?
ROWLANDS: With one count of homicide. They did have another charge on her and it's still pending for child endangerment, having to do with the other child and the cocaine and alcohol in the child's system. However, the D.A. is contemplating dropping those charges so they could bring that scenario into the murder charges and just concentrate on that.
But she is right now facing one homicide count which carries a sentence of 15 years to life.
KAGAN: That is our Ted Rowlands in Salt Lake City. And, Ted, let me take this opportunity to welcome you to our entire CNN family.
ROWLANDS: It's great to be here.
KAGAN: Yes, you've been working with those Larry King people for a while. But now we all get to benefit from your good reporting. Thank you so much. Ted Rowlands. We'll be seeing a lot of him on CNN.
Other news today, President Bush working to keep the international coalition together in the war on terror and in Iraq. We'll talk about his challenges with foreign policy analyst Ken Pollack.
And what is it like to be buried in a massive avalanche? You're going to meet a ran man remembering his frightening ordeal. You're watching CNN LIVE TODAY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Friday will mark the one year anniversary of the coalition's first strike on Iraq. During that time Saddam Hussein's regime has been toppled as have his memorials to himself. But behind the symbols of change what is the substance? Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even before the war officially started, the U.S. launched a massive preemptive bomb on a location in Baghdad where U.S. intelligence said Saddam was meeting. But had they got him? It took nine months before the U.S. could say for sure.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.
(APPLAUSE)
AMANPOUR: To wild applause from the Iraqis at this news conference, Saddam had finally been captured hiding in a hole in a garden not far from Tikrit, his seat of power. The once-fearsome dictator emerged looking dazed and dirty.
U.S. officials quickly released pictures of him being picked and probed by American medics. And the U.S. forces who caught him reported his last words as a free man. "My name is Saddam Hussein and I am the president of Iraq," he told them before surrendering. Since then, Saddam has been kept in a U.S. prison somewhere around Baghdad. Little had been heard about him until the U.S. last month finally allowed the International Red Cross to visit, under Geneva Convention rules.
NADA DOUMANI, ICRD SPOKESWOMAN: The purpose is to monitor the conditions of detention, to see to it that he -- any detainee, be it a POW or civilian, is treated according to the Geneva Conventions, to check his health situation, among others, and also to give him the possibility to write a message to his family, which the former president did.
AMANPOUR: As for his legal status, while the U.S. remains the occupying force, the former Iraqi dictator remains a prisoner of war. And the death penalty in Iraq has been suspended. But that could all change once the U.S. hands over sovereignty to Iraq June 30.
DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: We have said all along that Saddam Hussein will be tried by Iraqis. And once we hand him over to the Iraqis, that will obviously formally begin the process.
AMANPOUR: So far, Saddam has not told his interrogators much about WMD or other issues.
SENOR: He has not been cooperative himself. He has not provided us much information.
AMANPOUR: The Bush administration predicted Saddam's capture would at least slow down Iraq's insurgency and the terrorism, but that has not happened. Massive suicide bombings against Iraqi targets and attacks against American soldiers continue.
And with no WMD found in Iraq, some are suggesting a war crimes trial detailing the horrors of Saddam Hussein's regime would suit the administration this election year. However, Iraqi lawyers in charge are not saying when a trial could start or even whether Saddam would be their first witness.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Ken Pollack is a CNN analyst director of research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institute in Washington. Ken, good morning. Thanks for being with us.
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Thank you, Daryn. Good to be here.
KAGAN: Let's pick up where Christiane's piece left off. And in your opinion what do you think ultimately will happen to Saddam Hussein?
POLLACK: Well, I think there is no question he will be put on trial by Iraqis. And I think the interesting question is exactly when. And My guess is it's probably going to be sooner rather than later. Not so much because the U.S. administration wants that to happen. And Christiane's piece mentioned that might be a very useful thing for President Bush to have going into the U.S. election.
I actually think that more important determining event is going to be the fact that this Iraqi government, the current Iraqi governing council, I think would like very much to see Saddam put on trial while they are still in power.
Many of these people are looking to establish power bases in Iraq to outlive their transitional role. And I think if they can show that they're the ones who brought Saddam to justice, that will be a big boone for them inside Iraq.
KAGAN: All right. Let's look at Iraq one year later, a country that you've been following long before this current war in Iraq. First the positives. I think that obvious Saddam is gone out of power.
POLLACK: Absolutely. That's a huge positive. And when you talk to Iraqis, when you look at the public opinion data, that comes through loud and clear. They are delighted to be rid of Saddam Hussein's tyranny.
Another big positive for them is the fact that we are starting to see basic security -- basic services provided more and more to the people outside of Baghdad. You know under Saddam Hussein, the people in Baghdad and the Sunni Arabs in the west of the country pretty much got whatever they wanted.
But the Shi'a in the south were starved, deprived of clean water, electricity. The coalition has done a much better job for them.
KAGAN: Now let's talk about the challenges that remain one year later. You mention this interim government. How effective do you think they've been?
POLLACK: Well I don't think they've been terribly effective. And I think one of the big problems is that the Governing Council has proven to be part of the problem more than it's been part of the solution. And that's not to say everyone is bad. In fact there are some good people on the Governing Council.
But it was a group of people who were hand picked by the United States. They weren't elected by anyone. Many Iraqis don't know who they are. Most of the Iraqis don't feel that they have any legitimacy, any right to make decisions.
And it's gotten more complicated because back in November the U.S. set up a process that was designed to replace the Governing Council with hopefully a more representative and more legitimate interim government. And that process has collapsed on us.
KAGAN: Let's talk about developments of the recent week. And that of course the train bombings in Madrid and then the subsequent change of government there. How -- and then the new prime minister or prime minister elect announcing that he will eventually pull those Spanish troops out of Iraq.
How significant, at least in terms of symbolism, is that announcement?
KAGAN: Well it certainly isn't going to help the U.S. effort to bring in more members of the coalition and hopefully even more personnel, more military troops, to help with the reconstruction of Iraq.
I think that there are some countries out there that may have been considering whether they would be willing to contribute additional troops and contribute troops for the first time. The Spanish decision might make it much less likely that they would be willing to do so.
I think the big question remaining out there though is whether other countries will follow the Spanish lead. If they actually do pull out, will other countries also start to pull out? The Dutch have indicated that they might have some difficulties keeping their presence in Iraq for another six months or so.
If you start to see multiple countries pulling out, that could become a big problem for the United States. But the jury is still out on that just now.
KAGAN: In fact, I don't know if you were watching, but we were running some tape of the prime minister of the Netherlands with President Bush today. And that question came up. And he seemed to skirt that issue, not making that commitment, saying that will be something that will be discussed at a later point by his parliament.
So something to definitely keep an eye on.
POLLACK: Absolutely.
KAGAN: Ken Pollack, thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it.
POLLACK: Thank you, Daryn.
KAGAN: An amazing story of survival is just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: All right, we're talking about an avalanche now. Few people know what it's like to live through something like that. Lester Morlang is one person who knows vividly. He dug himself out of a very dire situation. Literally dug himself out.
Jonathan Freed has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What would you do if you were suddenly buried under a mountain of snow, moving more than 100 miles an hour? What Lester Morlang did was survive it.
LESTER MORLANG, AVALANCHE SURVIVOR: It was just instant. Next thing I knew, I was spinning through the air like I was in a washing machine or something.
FREED: In November of 1985, Morlang was working a mine in the mountains in Southwestern Colorado when an avalanche killed his partner and trapped him 35 feet down.
MORLANG: You're assuming you're going to die right there.
FREED: But Morlang kept from losing his mind by playing with the lights on his watch and miner's helmet.
MORLANG: I had that light to turn on and off. On and off. It was very important to think of something you can do instead of what you can't do. Don't let the can't dos overrun you.
FREED: Thoughts of his family gave Morlang the strength to dig.
MORLANG: I had a little method. I'd do a one, two, three, four.
FREED: It took him 22 hours to dig out marked by what Morlang calls a kind of out of body experience.
MORLANG: In your mind you have this picture where you're at and what you're doing. It's kind of like you watch it.
FREED: Morlang attributes his recovery to the energy that he gets from his wife.
ANITA MORLANG, WIFE: Our goal in life is to grow old together. We were high school sweethearts. We're determined to do that, aren't we?
MORLANG: When you think you're going to die, and you make it out of the situation and then you have your loved ones, that's something I'll never forget. That feeling right there, I don't ever want to let it go. FREED: Jonathan Freed, CNN, Whitewater, Colorado.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(WEATHER REPORT)
KAGAN: It's not the first time and it may not be the last. Two ministers prosecuted for presiding over the gay marriages. You'll hear their defense.
And an AWOL soldier turns himself in after refusing to return to combat duty in Iraq.
We are live from Miami. The second hour of CNN LIVE TODAY begins right now.
And we begin the hour with the latest developments that we are following. A terror blueprint provides a ominous post script in the attacks in Spain. An al Qaeda obtained by CNN spells out plans to drive a wedge between Spain and the U.S. It call for launching terror attacking to oust the ruling party, leading to Spain's withdrawal from Iraq.
Pakistani forces wage a battle against suspected terrorist along the Afghan border. Pakistan says its paramilitary forces carrying out a search operation clashed with militant fighters early today. Officials say eight Pakistani troops were killed along with three men identified as suspected al Qaeda fighters.
The loss of jobs in the U.S. is a hot topic in India during a visit by Secretary of State Colin Powell. At a meeting with Indian leaders today, Powell said that outsourcing is a reality of the 21st century, but both countries must do more to create opportunity. About 170,000 American jobs have moved to India.
A woman who was charged with homicide for allegedly refusing to have a C-section is facing more legal trouble. Melissa Rowland pleaded innocent to the charge stemming from the death of her unborn twin. Now she's accused of child endangerment. Authorities say that her surviving twin had cocaine and alcohol in here system.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 16, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are at CNN global headquarters. Good morning, I'm Daryn Kagan. We always start with the headlines.
Police in Ohio are looking for this man; 28-year-old Charles McCoy Jr. of Columbus is a suspect in the series of 24 highway shootings around the Columbus area since last May. Police have issued a warrant for his arrest. We have the latest in a live report just ahead.
In Baghdad, a fourth American civilian died overnight from wounds in a drive by shooting yesterday in Mosul. A fifth is being treated at a U.S. military hospital. The victims work for the Southern Baptist International Mission Board. They were said to be delivering relief supplies.
In western Pakistan, the search for terrorists intensifies. At least four Pakistani military forces are dead along with three others, after a battle in the border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistani forces are looking for suspected terrorists. Some believe Usama bin Laden may be hiding in that area.
The Reverend Al Sharpton is conceding defeat in his bid for the Democrats' presidential nomination; but he says he'll continue to campaign for what he calls "an urban agenda." Sharpton is endorsing presumptive nominee John Kerry. Congressman Dennis Kucinich also remains on the campaign trail.
And we're going to begin this morning in Ohio's capital city, where police have launched a nationwide manhunt for this man, 28 year- old Charles McCoy Jr. They believe he may be the gunman who opened fire on two-dozen motorists. Police say McCoy lived within miles of Interstate 270, the center of the month's long shooting spree that's left windshields shattered, school buses dented and at least one woman dead.
Sean Callebs is in Columbus with more on this latest update.
Good morning.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Daryn. On a cold, snowy day here in Columbus, we don't know if authorities are any closer to apprehending the suspect. But I spoke with an investigator a short while ago, and he told me since the news conference last night announcing 28 year old Charles McCoy was a suspect they have received, quote, "a ton of phone calls." And Corporal Mark Papas says right now they are in the initial phase of going through all that information trying to see if there's is anything there that will pan out.
But over and over again authorities have maintained that McCoy should be considered armed and dangerous, and they urged people not to try and approach him, certainly not to try and apprehend him under any circumstances. And talking with the investigators, they say that McCoy is suicidal with homicidal tendencies.
Now, McCoy also lives at home with his mother. And apparently had been under surveillance by authorities since last Friday. Sheriff's deputies have been very tight lipped about their investigation so far, until going public last night with that information.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE MARTIN, CHIEF DEPUTY, FRANKLIN COUNTY: The most important thing and the reason that we wanted to get this out, which we've done throughout this investigation, is to notify the public and you guys from the media, and get this information out as soon as possible. That is the key issue for us right now is to locate this guy. And when we do, we'll give you some additional information.
QUESTION: What makes you...
MARTIN: But right now that's the only information I'm going to give.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Why armed and dangerous? What makes you say he's armed and dangerous?
MARTIN: Because we believe he bought another gun, that's why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Well, McCoy is 5'7" weighs 185 pounds. And apparently drives a 1999 Chevy Metro. That's important, because all of that information fits description from some eyewitness at some of the various shootings. Now, McCoy is wanted on one count of felony -- felonious assault for allegedly firing a gun into a house. And a bullet fragment taken from that house also matches some of the fragments from at least eight other separate shootings.
And here's a bit of information that's going to be tough for people in this area if McCoy turns out to be the shooter. He apparently had been pulled over twice for speeding in the past year once in May 2003, once in November of 2003. On both occasions he ended up paying the tickets.
As Daryn mentioned, there have been 24 shootings in this area in the past 10 months or so, including one fatality, a 62-year-old woman who was shot on November 25 and died the next day.
Daryn, back to you.
KAGAN: Which leads me to a quick question, though. Why does he have only one count against him at this point -- Sean?
CALLEBS: Well, from the information they have given so far, there's only one count that he specifically fired that gun into a house. They have no other information apparently that connects him with firing at any of the other sites until more information is garnered, until they can bring him in and talk to him.
KAGAN: Sean Callebs in Columbus, thank you. We'll check back with you in the next hour.
And we encourage you to stay with us. Just a few minutes from now, we'll talk with a retired FBI agent, a former profiler, Candice DeLong. She will offer insights into this case. And this next story as well.
It is the latest bizarre twist in the murder of nine people inside a Fresno, California home. Authorities say there was a pattern to the shootings deaths of the woman and eight children; but they won't elaborate. They do say they have removed more evidence from the scene.
Our Rusty Dornin is in Fresno with the latest on this story -- Rusty.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, removal of that evidence was an eerie sight last night. Police went in and brought out 12 shiny, hand carved mahogany coffins. This is four days after the nine people were discovered murdered in the house.
Now, an antique storeowner claims that Mark Wesson, the suspect bought the coffins about five years ago; claimed he wanted to use the wood to repair a boat. Other people who had visited the house did see the coffins piled in the corner at the house.
Meantime, all nine autopsies have been completed. All died of gun shot wounds. Apparently the coroner says that she believes six -- there are six mothers of the victims but only one of the victims was a mother of one of the other victims. Also, toxicology tests are -- should be forth coming this week. We might learn more about whether any of the people were drugged before they were killed.
Police do say that the suspect, Marcus Wesson is calm, articulate and cooperative. And some people who know him say that they are still very shocked at what happened. One of the realtors that had the listing on the house said he used to go to the house to talk business with Wesson and said at that time there were no signs that the women were fearful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE CLARK, WESSON'S REALTOR: They stayed away from me. Basically I was there to see Marcus. And Marcus would walk me through the house. I had been through the house. I had been through the bedrooms. I have seen three kids in this bedroom and four in this kid -- and four in this bedroom or something.
DORNIN (on camera): Was it well kept?
CLARK: It was well kept. It was clean. There were no odors. They were kind of camped out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: The big question, of course, still is why? Police say they don't have a motive in these slayings. Meantime, Marcus Wesson is scheduled to be arraigned tomorrow -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Rusty Dornin with the latest from Fresno. Thank you, Rusty.
We want to take a closer look at both these top stories through the eyes of law enforcement professional. Candice DeLong, a retired FBI agent and profiler -- former profiler. She is the author of "Special Agent, My Life On The Front Lines." And she is up early with us this morning from San Francisco.
Candice, good morning.
CANDICE DELONG, FROMER FBI PROFILER: Good morning.
KAGAN: Let's start to the south of San Francisco in Fresno. Clearly something wasn't right. Even before this all took place, you have one man, a number of mothers, a number of children and what appears to be alleged incest as well.
DELONG: Mm-hmm. It looks like it's something that probably had been building for years. Although it is a little bit unusual to see a middle age man, 57, do something like this. Periodically we did see it. I used to be in the field of psychiatry before I was an agent. And sometimes these things happen later in life.
KAGAN: When you say a man this age, if you were going to see one man at the center of an odd family like this, you would expect it to be a younger man?
DELONG: Well oftentimes, what we see in family annihilators, people that kill their whole families, and sometimes that is the woman, or the mother of the children does it. But more often it is the man. And usually we see it usually between 40 and 50. And I believe Mr. Wesson is 57 years old.
KAGAN: Yes. And police have said that they're not shutting off the idea that other people could still be involved in this case and other charges filed.
DELONG: Right. I -- that's, of course, possible. I would be surprised to find out that there was anybody else involved or cert -- more than one person. That would surprise me.
KAGAN: All right. Let's look at the other case coming out of Columbus, Ohio. Police finally after all these months and these shootings, say they have a suspect. Late 20s, white male, Charles McCoy Jr. How does this fit with the profile you would expect in this case?
DELONG: Pretty much right on; these types of crimes are not committed by middle age men. I mean going out and taking shots at moving vehicles. Similarly, the fact that he got away with it for so long. He was fairly successful at keeping this going for a while, also, points to the fact that it wasn't a teenager doing it. So -- and it's usually these kinds of crimes are committed by white males, usually. And so, he really kind of fits right in the middle -- right in -- right on it there.
KAGAN: Yes. And we do have to say, of course, he's only been charged with one count, not with all the shootings. And it is alleged at this point. We can't just make the leap that he is guilty of the one charge that he has been charged with until he is found guilty.
How good though is profiling? You know, I can't help but think the sniper case I covered out of Washington, D.C.; this was the kind of person they were looking for. And of course, it turned out to be two African-American males of different ages.
DELONG: Right. Well, profiling is best utilized when there is a crime scene, there's interaction between the offender and the victim, such as murder in a home or something like that. Or rape/murder. These kinds of crimes, where you don't really have a crime scene, and the interaction between the offender and the victim is minimal other than the gunshot, are very difficult to profile other than to say, such as in the D.C. sniper case, statistically you are probably looking for this kind of person. And that's only in the absence of eyewitness identification.
KAGAN: Got it. Candice DeLong thanks for offering up your expertise. Appreciate it.
DELONG: You're welcome.
KAGAN: It has been three months since he was captured, but we have heard very little about Saddam Hussein. Christiane Amanpour is ahead with what is next for Saddam.
And the mother charged with murder for refusing a C-section says she's not guilty. A live report from Salt Lake City with new details in the case.
And later...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just instant. Just the next thing I knew, I was spinning through the air, like I was in a washing machine or something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Not a typical day in the Colorado Mountains. A man's incredible story of survival is just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Well, the calendar says spring is just four days away. The yardstick shows it is out of reach. Some parts of the Midwest are digging out of more than a foot of snow. Des Moines, for example, got a record 15.4 inches. The late winter storm is plowing eastward. Parts of New England and northeast could see up to 10 inches.
New developments in the Madrid bombing investigation, as authorities zero in on more suspected terrorists. A live report from Spain is just ahead. Along with new insights into the way the terrorist group al Qaeda is evolving. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Spanish officials are trying to piece together the puzzling details of Thursday's train bombings. They say they've discovered new information. And there's been a new arrest in the Basque region of Spain.
Our Brent Sadler is on top of the story. He is in Madrid -- Brent.
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Daryn. Another bomb victim has died, bringing the death toll now to 201. More than 200 people remain in hospital after last Thursday's bomb attacks here in Madrid.
Now to the investigation, as you say. Basque police in northern Spain have picked up an Algerian not been identified, but he has been transferred to Madrid for further questioning. Also here, security sources telling CNN and Spain's top newspaper, "el Pais" that as many as six Moroccans, police believe, were involved in last Thursday's bomb attacks. One of those, a 30-year-old Moroccan male, has been in custody since last Saturday. That individual may have connections with some of those people who were arrested after last May's suicide bomb attacks in Casablanca. So a lot of connectivity there; investigators believing that there is now a multinational cell involved in last week's bomb attacks here.
Now to the political front. Spaniards are being promised a radical change in this country's foreign policy. Prime Minister designate Zapatero is saying that the country will withdraw Spanish drops on duty with the U.S. linked coalition in Iraq by June 30, unless there is a control is taken over there by the United Nations, with a new U.N. Security Council resolution. In addition to that, Mr. Zapatero has had some harsh words for the U.S. policy in Iraq, notably the war. He says the war, quote, "was a disaster and the occupation of Iraq today, a great disaster."
But at the same time, Mr. Zapatero is saying he will remain in close contact, good close relations with the Americans, with Washington. But even closer to Spain's more traditional allies, especially France and Germany -- Daryn. KAGAN: Brent a question for you on the investigation here. There's been some talk in the media about how the U.S. hasn't sent counter terrorism officials and experts to Spain like they would in other incidents. Any talk in Spain that they would like some more help from outside countries?
SADLER: Well, certainly there's cooperation on the European level. Moroccan investigators have been comparing notes with their Spanish counter parts here, because of that connection between the bombings blast May in Casablanca and last week's attack here's. And there is expected to be here in the coming days, a top-level meeting of European Union security experts to anti-terrorist experts, to pool resources and to exchange information. No word at this stage whether there will be any U.S. involvement directly in those top-level talks or at least on the sidelines -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Brent Sadler with the latest from Madrid. Brent, thank you.
And as police ponder the likelihood of an al Qaeda linked to the Madrid attacks, some terror experts are sure of one thing. There are splinter cells around the world. And al Qaeda is less a small, well- defined group and more like a radical movement of many different people.
Our Kelli Arena has more on that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLY ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. counter terrorism officials agree investigators will probably establish a definitive al Qaeda connection to the Spain bombings. But experts suggest the term al Qaeda is now just shorthand for a very complex, global terror network.
M.J. GOHEL, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: What we're dealing here with is an ideology. It's global Jihad movement, composed of al Qaeda and many affiliated terrorist groups. All of these groups are autonomous.
ARENA: Terrorism experts have long said al Qaeda was made up of loosely affiliated groups, but most attacks, including those on September 11, could eventually be traced back to Usama bin Laden or other leaders.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Some two- thirds of al Qaeda's key leaders have been captured or killed. The rest of them, hear us breathing down their neck.
ARENA: In part, the U.S.-led war on terror has created a new enemy by splintering the organization.
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM EXPERT: This is not like a Gambino crime family or Mafia family, where if you arrest the leaders this goes out of business. This is more like a mass movement. And you can arrest as many people as you want, but it's very hard to arrest the movement of ideas.
ARENA: Counter terrorism officials say one of their biggest concerns is how U.S. actions, such as the war in Iraq, are motivating new recruits bound by a common goal, to destroy western secular society.
(on camera): Both government and private experts are bracing for what they say could be a war that will last for generations.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Charged with the murder of her unborn child, Melissa Rowland says she did not refuse to have a Caesarian Section. A live report from Utah is coming up next.
And a 12-year-old girl falls 45 feet from a freeway overpass. Her miracle story is just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Showing you some videotape now that was shot moments ago at the White House. President Bush with the prime minister of the Netherlands. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Here's what we're going to do.
We'll have a couple opening statements. I'll call upon American press; the prime minister will call upon somebody from the Dutch press. American press, Dutch press, and that's it.
Thank you all for coming.
Mr. Prime Minister, welcome. Glad you're back.
Thank you for your friendship. Thank you for your clear understanding about the need for us to work together to achieve a more free and peaceful world. I appreciate our bilateral relations are strong.
We had a wide-ranging discussion talking about a variety of issues, whether it be foreign policy or the economy. It was a good, frank discussion.
And I appreciate my friend being here again.
Welcome.
JAN PETER BALKENENDE, PRIME MINISTER OF THE NETHERLANDS: George, thanks again for the hospitality.
We had a very good discussion. We talked about issues around Iraq as well as the United Nations, for example. We talked about cooperation in the economic sphere, developments in Afghanistan. We also talked about values in society; important issue.
And especially we talked about terrorism -- the fight against terrorism. And it is important that the world society, international community stands shoulder to shoulder and shows its solidarity to fight against these terrible attacks. And we share that same view and we will work together.
Also in the second half of this year the Netherlands is taking up the presidency of the European Union.
BUSH: We'll have a couple of questions here.
QUESTION: Mr. President, do you think terrorists have reason to believe that they can influence elections and policy given the outcome of what happened in Spain?
BUSH: I think terrorists will kill innocent life in order to try to get the world to cower. I think these are cold-blooded killers. I mean, they'll kill innocent people to try to shake our will. That's what they want to do.
And they'll never shake the will of the United States. We understand the stakes. And we will work with our friends to bring justice to the terrorists.
They have not only killed in Spain, they've killed in the United States, they've killed in Turkey, they've killed in Saudi Arabia. They kill wherever they can. And it's essential that the free world remain strong and resolute and determined.
QUESTION: Mr. President, according to an opinion poll, most Dutch people want to withdraw the Dutch troops from Iraq. Many Dutch people think this war in Iraq has little to do with the war against terrorism and may actually encourage terrorism. How would you respond to those Dutch people who want to withdraw?
BUSH: Yes. I would ask them to think about the Iraqi citizens who don't want people to withdraw because they want to be free.
And I would remind the Dutch citizens that al Qaeda has an interest in Iraq for a reason, and that interest is they realize this is a front in the war on terror and they fear the spread of freedom and democracy in places like the greater Middle East. They can't stand the thought of free societies springing up in the Middle East because they understand a free society is against their very wishes.
BUSH: And so it's essential that we remain side-by-side with the Iraqi people as they begin the process of self-government.
And we're making good progress. The basic law that was written by the governing council is a substantial piece of work that talked about freedoms, the very same freedoms that we honor in America or in the Netherlands. And it's essential that we help Iraq and Afghanistan develop into free societies, which in itself will start changing the regions in which they exist.
QUESTION: Candidate Kerry has suggested he has support of world leaders. Do you think he should -- that should be a factor in the campaign? Was that an appropriate thing for him to say?
BUSH: I think it's -- if you're going to make an accusation in the course of a presidential campaign, you ought to back it up with facts.
QUESTION: Mr. President, have you convinced the prime minister of the Netherlands to leave the Dutch troops in Iraq?
BUSH: The prime minister will make the appropriate decision. It's his decision to make.
We both agree that a free Iraq is essential to a peaceful world. We both understand the stakes. We both know that al Qaeda is interested in fighting us in Iraq. How do we know? We know because they've said so publicly.
al Qaeda understands the stakes. Al Qaeda wants us out of Iraq because al Qaeda wants to use Iraq as an example of defeating freedom and democracy.
And so the prime minister has got issues at home that he'll deal with. But there's no doubt that he understands the stakes and the historic opportunity with which we're faced.
BALKENENDE: I was going to add that we did not talk about the situation after the 1st of July; that is the responsibility of the Dutch government and Dutch parliament, and we will talk about it, as I made it clear already earlier.
But I think it's very good to look always to the situation of the Iraq people and the international struggle against terrorism. Therefore, it's so important that countries are working together and they can draw the same lines. That's very important, but it has nothing to do, at this moment, with the decision-making as far as the situation after the 1st of July is concerned.
BUSH: Thanks. Good job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Listening in there to a quick talk between President Bush and the prime minister of the Netherlands. Topics coming up, the war in Iraq, the situation in Spain and the accusation by Senator Kerry that he is talking to different world leaders an he believes certain world leaders, who he will not name, believe they want to have him in power instead of President Bush. President Bush calling out Senator Kerry saying name some names.
We'll have more on this story just ahead. Right now we take a quick break and we're back with much more news after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: A Utah woman who's been charged murder for allegedly refusing to have a C-section has been talking to the media. Our Ted Rowlands joins us now with the latest from Salt Lake City. Ted, good morning.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.
Melissa Rowland has contacted a local newspaper here in Salt Lake and is now claiming that she never refused to have a C-section which of course is in direct contradiction to what the district attorney says happened, saying that she refused three times at three separate hospitals.
She also told this paper that she believes that she is being used by the state as an example. Meanwhile, she seems to be doing everything she can to get herself out of jail.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELISSA ROWLAND, ACCUSED OF MURDER: The issue is that my bail is so high, your honor.
ROWLANDS (voice-over): After giving birth and after her arrest, 28-year-old Melissa Rowland not only tried convincing a judge to reduce her bail, but allegedly also tried scamming bail money from a local adoption agency.
According to the agency's director, Rowland called from jail claiming she was pregnant and would be willing to give up her fictitious child if she could get out of jail.
ANN LAMPHERE, DIR. OF ADOPT AN ANGEL: She's very good at manipulating. Very good at telling you what you want to hear.
ROWLANDS: Rowland is facing homicide charges for refusing medical advice at three separate Salt Lake City hospitals. According to court documents, doctors say a C-section could have saved her child's life.
Some mental health advocates are concerned that Rowland's actions, including an alleged statement to a nurse that she would rather lose a child than have a scar, indicates that she may be very unstable.
VICKY COTTRELL, NATL. ALLIANCE FOR THE MENTALLY ILL: This woman was not thinking rational. And it should have been picked up when she was exhibiting those behaviors.
ROWLANDS: Rowland's attorney says she has a history of mental illness.
KENT MORGAN, SPOKESMAN, SALT LAKE D.A.: And they've indicated that her difficulty is a failure to comply with authority. We have two prisons completely filled with people who are unable to comply with authority.
ROWLANDS: University of Utah law Professor Wayne McCormick says Rowland had a right to refuse the C-section.
WAYNE MCCORMICK, UNIVERSITY OF UTAH LAW SCHOOL: Her right to refuse surgery is her interest. And if she didn't like the color of the paint on the walls in the hospital she could leave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROWLANDS: Rowland was carrying twins. The other baby, a baby girl, was born with, according to the D.A. here, alcohol and cocaine in her system. That child has been taken out of state and is being cared for by a separate couple.
Meanwhile, Rowland was unable to make the $300,000 bail. She remains in custody -- Daryn.
KAGAN: And so, Ted, what is she exactly charged with?
ROWLANDS: With one count of homicide. They did have another charge on her and it's still pending for child endangerment, having to do with the other child and the cocaine and alcohol in the child's system. However, the D.A. is contemplating dropping those charges so they could bring that scenario into the murder charges and just concentrate on that.
But she is right now facing one homicide count which carries a sentence of 15 years to life.
KAGAN: That is our Ted Rowlands in Salt Lake City. And, Ted, let me take this opportunity to welcome you to our entire CNN family.
ROWLANDS: It's great to be here.
KAGAN: Yes, you've been working with those Larry King people for a while. But now we all get to benefit from your good reporting. Thank you so much. Ted Rowlands. We'll be seeing a lot of him on CNN.
Other news today, President Bush working to keep the international coalition together in the war on terror and in Iraq. We'll talk about his challenges with foreign policy analyst Ken Pollack.
And what is it like to be buried in a massive avalanche? You're going to meet a ran man remembering his frightening ordeal. You're watching CNN LIVE TODAY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Friday will mark the one year anniversary of the coalition's first strike on Iraq. During that time Saddam Hussein's regime has been toppled as have his memorials to himself. But behind the symbols of change what is the substance? Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour takes a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even before the war officially started, the U.S. launched a massive preemptive bomb on a location in Baghdad where U.S. intelligence said Saddam was meeting. But had they got him? It took nine months before the U.S. could say for sure.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.
(APPLAUSE)
AMANPOUR: To wild applause from the Iraqis at this news conference, Saddam had finally been captured hiding in a hole in a garden not far from Tikrit, his seat of power. The once-fearsome dictator emerged looking dazed and dirty.
U.S. officials quickly released pictures of him being picked and probed by American medics. And the U.S. forces who caught him reported his last words as a free man. "My name is Saddam Hussein and I am the president of Iraq," he told them before surrendering. Since then, Saddam has been kept in a U.S. prison somewhere around Baghdad. Little had been heard about him until the U.S. last month finally allowed the International Red Cross to visit, under Geneva Convention rules.
NADA DOUMANI, ICRD SPOKESWOMAN: The purpose is to monitor the conditions of detention, to see to it that he -- any detainee, be it a POW or civilian, is treated according to the Geneva Conventions, to check his health situation, among others, and also to give him the possibility to write a message to his family, which the former president did.
AMANPOUR: As for his legal status, while the U.S. remains the occupying force, the former Iraqi dictator remains a prisoner of war. And the death penalty in Iraq has been suspended. But that could all change once the U.S. hands over sovereignty to Iraq June 30.
DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: We have said all along that Saddam Hussein will be tried by Iraqis. And once we hand him over to the Iraqis, that will obviously formally begin the process.
AMANPOUR: So far, Saddam has not told his interrogators much about WMD or other issues.
SENOR: He has not been cooperative himself. He has not provided us much information.
AMANPOUR: The Bush administration predicted Saddam's capture would at least slow down Iraq's insurgency and the terrorism, but that has not happened. Massive suicide bombings against Iraqi targets and attacks against American soldiers continue.
And with no WMD found in Iraq, some are suggesting a war crimes trial detailing the horrors of Saddam Hussein's regime would suit the administration this election year. However, Iraqi lawyers in charge are not saying when a trial could start or even whether Saddam would be their first witness.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Ken Pollack is a CNN analyst director of research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institute in Washington. Ken, good morning. Thanks for being with us.
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Thank you, Daryn. Good to be here.
KAGAN: Let's pick up where Christiane's piece left off. And in your opinion what do you think ultimately will happen to Saddam Hussein?
POLLACK: Well, I think there is no question he will be put on trial by Iraqis. And I think the interesting question is exactly when. And My guess is it's probably going to be sooner rather than later. Not so much because the U.S. administration wants that to happen. And Christiane's piece mentioned that might be a very useful thing for President Bush to have going into the U.S. election.
I actually think that more important determining event is going to be the fact that this Iraqi government, the current Iraqi governing council, I think would like very much to see Saddam put on trial while they are still in power.
Many of these people are looking to establish power bases in Iraq to outlive their transitional role. And I think if they can show that they're the ones who brought Saddam to justice, that will be a big boone for them inside Iraq.
KAGAN: All right. Let's look at Iraq one year later, a country that you've been following long before this current war in Iraq. First the positives. I think that obvious Saddam is gone out of power.
POLLACK: Absolutely. That's a huge positive. And when you talk to Iraqis, when you look at the public opinion data, that comes through loud and clear. They are delighted to be rid of Saddam Hussein's tyranny.
Another big positive for them is the fact that we are starting to see basic security -- basic services provided more and more to the people outside of Baghdad. You know under Saddam Hussein, the people in Baghdad and the Sunni Arabs in the west of the country pretty much got whatever they wanted.
But the Shi'a in the south were starved, deprived of clean water, electricity. The coalition has done a much better job for them.
KAGAN: Now let's talk about the challenges that remain one year later. You mention this interim government. How effective do you think they've been?
POLLACK: Well I don't think they've been terribly effective. And I think one of the big problems is that the Governing Council has proven to be part of the problem more than it's been part of the solution. And that's not to say everyone is bad. In fact there are some good people on the Governing Council.
But it was a group of people who were hand picked by the United States. They weren't elected by anyone. Many Iraqis don't know who they are. Most of the Iraqis don't feel that they have any legitimacy, any right to make decisions.
And it's gotten more complicated because back in November the U.S. set up a process that was designed to replace the Governing Council with hopefully a more representative and more legitimate interim government. And that process has collapsed on us.
KAGAN: Let's talk about developments of the recent week. And that of course the train bombings in Madrid and then the subsequent change of government there. How -- and then the new prime minister or prime minister elect announcing that he will eventually pull those Spanish troops out of Iraq.
How significant, at least in terms of symbolism, is that announcement?
KAGAN: Well it certainly isn't going to help the U.S. effort to bring in more members of the coalition and hopefully even more personnel, more military troops, to help with the reconstruction of Iraq.
I think that there are some countries out there that may have been considering whether they would be willing to contribute additional troops and contribute troops for the first time. The Spanish decision might make it much less likely that they would be willing to do so.
I think the big question remaining out there though is whether other countries will follow the Spanish lead. If they actually do pull out, will other countries also start to pull out? The Dutch have indicated that they might have some difficulties keeping their presence in Iraq for another six months or so.
If you start to see multiple countries pulling out, that could become a big problem for the United States. But the jury is still out on that just now.
KAGAN: In fact, I don't know if you were watching, but we were running some tape of the prime minister of the Netherlands with President Bush today. And that question came up. And he seemed to skirt that issue, not making that commitment, saying that will be something that will be discussed at a later point by his parliament.
So something to definitely keep an eye on.
POLLACK: Absolutely.
KAGAN: Ken Pollack, thanks for joining us today. Appreciate it.
POLLACK: Thank you, Daryn.
KAGAN: An amazing story of survival is just ahead.
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KAGAN: All right, we're talking about an avalanche now. Few people know what it's like to live through something like that. Lester Morlang is one person who knows vividly. He dug himself out of a very dire situation. Literally dug himself out.
Jonathan Freed has his story.
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JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What would you do if you were suddenly buried under a mountain of snow, moving more than 100 miles an hour? What Lester Morlang did was survive it.
LESTER MORLANG, AVALANCHE SURVIVOR: It was just instant. Next thing I knew, I was spinning through the air like I was in a washing machine or something.
FREED: In November of 1985, Morlang was working a mine in the mountains in Southwestern Colorado when an avalanche killed his partner and trapped him 35 feet down.
MORLANG: You're assuming you're going to die right there.
FREED: But Morlang kept from losing his mind by playing with the lights on his watch and miner's helmet.
MORLANG: I had that light to turn on and off. On and off. It was very important to think of something you can do instead of what you can't do. Don't let the can't dos overrun you.
FREED: Thoughts of his family gave Morlang the strength to dig.
MORLANG: I had a little method. I'd do a one, two, three, four.
FREED: It took him 22 hours to dig out marked by what Morlang calls a kind of out of body experience.
MORLANG: In your mind you have this picture where you're at and what you're doing. It's kind of like you watch it.
FREED: Morlang attributes his recovery to the energy that he gets from his wife.
ANITA MORLANG, WIFE: Our goal in life is to grow old together. We were high school sweethearts. We're determined to do that, aren't we?
MORLANG: When you think you're going to die, and you make it out of the situation and then you have your loved ones, that's something I'll never forget. That feeling right there, I don't ever want to let it go. FREED: Jonathan Freed, CNN, Whitewater, Colorado.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(WEATHER REPORT)
KAGAN: It's not the first time and it may not be the last. Two ministers prosecuted for presiding over the gay marriages. You'll hear their defense.
And an AWOL soldier turns himself in after refusing to return to combat duty in Iraq.
We are live from Miami. The second hour of CNN LIVE TODAY begins right now.
And we begin the hour with the latest developments that we are following. A terror blueprint provides a ominous post script in the attacks in Spain. An al Qaeda obtained by CNN spells out plans to drive a wedge between Spain and the U.S. It call for launching terror attacking to oust the ruling party, leading to Spain's withdrawal from Iraq.
Pakistani forces wage a battle against suspected terrorist along the Afghan border. Pakistan says its paramilitary forces carrying out a search operation clashed with militant fighters early today. Officials say eight Pakistani troops were killed along with three men identified as suspected al Qaeda fighters.
The loss of jobs in the U.S. is a hot topic in India during a visit by Secretary of State Colin Powell. At a meeting with Indian leaders today, Powell said that outsourcing is a reality of the 21st century, but both countries must do more to create opportunity. About 170,000 American jobs have moved to India.
A woman who was charged with homicide for allegedly refusing to have a C-section is facing more legal trouble. Melissa Rowland pleaded innocent to the charge stemming from the death of her unborn twin. Now she's accused of child endangerment. Authorities say that her surviving twin had cocaine and alcohol in here system.
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