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American Morning
Interviews With Howard Dean, Steve Coll
Aired March 19, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Who is this man who is called the brains behind al Qaeda? We'll talk this morning with the managing editor of the "Washington Post" about al Zawahiri and what it means for the war on terror if indeed he is captured.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: That's right, a big story again, and we will not leave it for long.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill. Coming up in the "Cafferty File," a year after the war in Iraq, you wont' believe some of the items that are showing up on eBay, one little item from Saddam's palace. Well, you can get it. And we'll tell you about some devout fans who will go anywhere and cheer for beer...
HEMMER: I know what you...
CAFFERTY: ... and a hotdog. Yes.
HEMMER: I've got lot of them, actually, friends.
CAFFERTY: There you go.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
Let's get to our top story yet again. Pakistani forces say they have supported some 200 al Qaeda fighters, this remote mountainous region near the Afghanistan border. They believe they have cornered Osama bin Laden's second in command, Ayman Al-Zawahiri.
Barbara Starr is from the Pentagon this morning with us now, our first stop this hour. Good morning, Barbara, what do you know now?
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill. Well, by all accounts, reports from the region, the Pakistanis are continuing to move in ground troops, continuing the assault on this area where they believe these al Qaeda fighters are holed up. The Pakistani minister of information saying early today that he expects this operation, one way or the other, to be wrapped up in the next 48 hours. The deadlines to those fighters to surrender have now passed.
Now, the Pakistanis do believe they have cornered Ayman Al- Zawahiri, the number two man in al Qaeda, but of course no one is really sure. Here in Washington, officials are continuing to say this morning they are watching the situation closely and they are waiting to get more information from Islamabad. But the question of course on the table is if it is Al-Zawahiri and if bin Laden is nearby and this goes the way the U.S. hopes it does, what difference will that make to the war on terrorism?
"AMERICAN MORNING" spoke earlier today to General Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on that very point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Certainly if you capture somebody like Al-Zawahiri, that would be good news because presumably he knows where UBL is or where he was, and if he talks or if he is captured with documents or other material, you might be able to find out where some of that other senior leadership is, absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: But General Myers, of course, also making the point that the war on terrorism will continue no matter what happens, because there is now a belief that al Qaeda has basically devolved to a cellular organization, not a hierarchical organization. In other words, there are al Qaeda operatives spread out, perhaps not taking their direct orders from Osama bin Laden, making the threat still very significant.
Bill?
HEMMER: Barbara, thanks for that. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon this morning.
Soledad?
O'BRIEN: Secretary of State Colin Powell made a surprise visit to Baghdad today on the one-year anniversary of the start of the war. Secretary Powell answered questions during a news conference just about an hour ago.
Walt Rodgers live in Baghdad for us this morning with more.
Walt, good morning.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. Secretary Powell came here to Iraq to reaffirm the American commitment to rebuild this country in the post-Saddam era. He held a news conference and he faced some very tough questions like, can the Americans turn the corner on the rising tide of violence, car bombings, drive-by shootings here? The secretary's answer seemed to be that the Americans are placing their faith on future security here on an embryonic Iraqi security force which, again, is at best embryonic at this point.
He did have to acknowledge there has been a spike in violence in Iraq. There was one very tough question when a reporter quoted the French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin who said terror and terrorism did not exist in Iraq before the American-led invasion.
Villepin also apparently said that the world is less safe after the United States went into Iraq. Secretary of state, as I say, had a difficult time answering that question, but he did say now is not the time to run and hide.
O'BRIEN: Walt, it looks as if we're having a little trouble getting that sound byte for you, so we heard a little bit of the back and forth beyond that.
Can I ask you a quick question about some of the Arab journalists who walked out of that press conference before it began? Secretary Powell walks in, they get up, read a statement and walk out. They're angry because they said the U.S. soldiers were responsible for the deaths of two Arab journalists.
What did the secretary have to say about their complaints?
RODGERS: Well, to reconstruct that, before the secretary even commenced his news conference, an Arab journalist and (INAUDIBLE) Arab journalist from the Dubai network Al Arabia were shot at an American checkpoint. The U.S. secretary of state said there would be an investigation of that, but, again, the Iraqi journalists who were here didn't hang around to hear his answer. They just stood up en masse and walked out.
Journalists are high-priority targets here. As I say, two Arab journalists were killed at an American checkpoint yesterday. A misunderstanding, one car bolted the checkpoint, the soldiers started firing. The Arab journalists were killed in yet another car, but then two days before that, three Iraqi journalists were killed in a drive- by shooting. Hostile environment, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: No question about that. Walt Rodgers, live for us in Baghdad. Walt, thank you for that update.
HEMMER: Other news now, critical news from Taiwan. The president and the vice president reportedly released now from a hospital. The president, Chen Shui-bian was shot across the stomach, and the vice president, Annette Lu, grazed by a bullet in the leg.
Presidential spokesperson says the two were campaigning in a parade at the time. The shootings come as the island gets ready for weekend elections, including a controversial referendum that China considers a step toward Taiwan's own independence.
This country now, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia rejecting a request that he recuse himself from the upcoming case involving the vice president, Dick Cheney. An environmental group suggesting a potential conflict of interest after both men attended a January hunting trip.
Scalia says he did not remember ever being alone with Cheney on that trip, and they never talked about this case. The vice president is fighting a federal court's order that it release internal files of a task force he headed up for the Bush administration.
The Tennessee county that was the site of the Scopes monkey trial reversing itself on a call to ban homosexuals. The commissioners in Rhea county quickly retreated from their vote earlier in the week to call for a change in state law to charge gays with crimes against nature. Commissioners claim all they wanted to do was support a ban on same-sex marriage.
New security measures for flights within U.S. airspace. The TSA, ordering international airlines to keep their cockpit doors locked when flying to, from and over the U.S. This after a passenger complained that a cockpit door had been left open during an overseas flight to the U.S.
You're up to date now, 8:07 here in New York City.
O'BRIEN: And 33 degrees, which means -- remember Chad (ph), 20 minutes ago I said it's not snowing, Chad (ph), it's raining. Well, it dropped a degree. Now, it's snowing.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Let's turn now to politics. Gone, but certainly not forgotten could be Howard Dean's epitaph. A month after dropping out of the race, the former Democratic candidate is launching a different kind of grassroots campaign. It's called Democracy for America. He joins us this morning to talk a little bit about that new political organization. Also, of course, the Bush-Kerry battle.
Good morning. Nice to see you.
HOWARD DEAN (D-MA), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And good morning. Thanks for having me on.
O'BRIEN: My pleasure. Let's talk a little bit first President Bush and some of the responses that you've had. You said the other day in a conference call with reporters the president was the one who dragged our troops to Iraq, which apparently has been a factor in the deaths of 200 Spaniards over the weekend. This is a while (ph) back. What exactly did you mean by that?
DEAN: Just exactly what I said. The notes and the videotapes from the terrorists made it clear that their attack on Spain was in part retaliation for the Spanish government sending troops to Iraq in support of what we were doing there.
O'BRIEN: So there were some people who sort of did the math on that and said, OK, so you're saying that the deaths of 201 Spaniards is the fault of the U.S.
DEAN: No, I said no such thing, and some enterprising print reporter -- actually, in fairness to the print reporters, they were spoon-fed by the White House, who claimed I said that. Of course, I said nothing of the sort.
You know, politics is a tough game. But I do think the print reporters have got to be a little more careful before they make up stories that aren't so.
O'BRIEN: At the same time...
DEAN: And then they went over and told John Kerry what the White House had said I said... O'BRIEN: My next question for you.
DEAN: ... which wasn't true, so they had Senator Kerry trapped into responding to something that the White House said, not that I said. This is a ridiculous flap caused by too much time on the hands of print reporters.
O'BRIEN: Yes, in fact, he said something like that's not our position.
DEAN: Sure.
O'BRIEN: And you say that comment was actually a response to...
DEAN: To the White House.
O'BRIEN: ... something that was not happening at all.
DEAN: It was a response to the White House. That's a ridiculous non-story.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about the poll numbers. When you see -- compare Senator Kerry and President Bush and you look at the issues of national security, terrorism, Iraq, world affairs, Kerry drags. I mean, he's...
DEAN: But you know what, that's going to change. Here are two guys, not one of whom who have ever served a day overseas in their life in defense of their country, Dick Cheney and George Bush, attacking John Kerry, who has got three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star, a decorated Vietnam War veteran. This is ridiculous. This country would be far safer and better off with John Kerry as president...
O'BRIEN: How do you change the perception, then? Because clearly -- I get that polls change, but how do you change the perception early on, because that's a message that I think has gotten out very clearly, that Senator Kerry has a wonderful, amazing experience in Vietnam, obviously a war hero, everyone concedes that. But the public doesn't give him points then for national security.
DEAN: Oh, I think the public will give him points. Don't forget, the president's an incumbent. He's been there for three years. Where the president is really going to sink, though, is not on defense, it's on jobs and credibility. The president has been saying a lot of things that aren't true. He got us into Iraq by saying a lot of things that weren't true. For example, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with al Qaeda.
Saddam Hussein is a terrible person, I'm glad he's gone, but it had nothing to do with terrorism. And he admitted that himself. The key, however, is that the president's people deliberately lied to Congress by preventing civil servants from telling the truth about how much the Medicare prescription bill cost, a bill that funneled millions and billions of our taxpayer dollars to the HMOs and drug companies. Credibility is going to become the biggest issue in this race, not even jobs or health care or the war, it's going to become can you believe this president. And that's an area I think the president is very weak on, because he said so many things that aren't so.
O'BRIEN: You've got a new organization called Democracy for America. What exactly is it, and why did you start it?
DEAN: We want to continue what we were doing in the campaign. One way to get rid of special interests and corporate influence in Washington, which is just killing ordinary Americans trying to make a living is to help politicians raise money in small donations. So we're going to get people to run for office, for school boards, for city council...
O'BRIEN: That small?
DEAN: ... for state legislature.
O'BRIEN: At the very bottom.
DEAN: Start at the bottom, and you help them raise money through the Web, like we did, in small donations. We're going to help Congress. We'd like to send Tom DeLay back to Texas, along with George Bush, because these are far right people. They don't belong in the government of this country. The country is not -- this not a right-wing country. Our problem here is that we have a leadership that is not as good as the hearts of the American people, and that's what we want to change.
O'BRIEN: Howard Dean joining us this morning.
It's nice to see you. Thanks for coming in to talk to us.
DEAN: Thanks, Soledad. It was my pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Bill?
HEMMER: About 12 minutes past the hour. In a moment, who is Ayman Al-Zawahiri? What would his capture mean in the fight against al Qaeda. We'll get to those critical issues in a moment here, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Also, new developments into the investigation of the Madrid train attacks. We've got the latest on that just ahead.
HEMMER: And a man on a wire and his dramatic rescue, ahead this hour on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: From Pakistan this morning, forces there say they have surrounded 200 al Qaeda fighters, this remote mountainous region near the border with Afghanistan, forbidden country for so many. They have called for the fighters to surrender and believe they're protecting Osama bin Laden's second in command, Ayman Al-Zawahiri. What would his capture mean in the current war on terror? Steve Coll is back with us, the author of "Ghost Wars," managing editor of the "Washington Post" as well. There's his book. He is our guest.
Good morning, Steve, welcome back to "AMERICAN MORNING."
STEVE COLL, "WASHINGTON POST": Bill, good to see you again.
HEMMER: What do you believe is at play here in Pakistan today?
COLL: Well, it's hard to tell who is exactly behind this wall, but as you suggest, there is obviously an enormous firefight that is either about to unfold, or a surrender that will prevent it. There are perhaps a dozen or more leader who could be generating this kind of resistance, but I'm reading the same reports that you are, that Zawahiri is being cited by the Pakistanis as the most likely person behind the wall.
HEMMER: Condoleezza Rice was our guest last hour, Steve. She says the administration has no exact information on who is there. Sound right to you?
COLL: Yes, that's consistent with what I'm hearing. In this part of the world, the militants up there wouldn't need a lot of reason to shoot out Pakistani troops. They're regarded as alien as the Americans are. Also, it's an area where there is a lot of drug manufacturing, heroin labs, smuggling. It might be different kinds of assets that groups of fighters would be protecting.
HEMMER: Give our audience an indication here about how powerful Ayman Al-Zawahiri was. Jane Harman, a Democrat from California had -- I'm paraphrasing now. If Osama bin Laden, this man is the symbol for al Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the man to Osama bin Laden's right in this videotape, screen left, is the brains behind the operation. Can you expand on that for us?
COLL: Well, he was much more of a violent operator than bin Laden at the time that they formed their alliance early in 1998. Zawahiri was a veteran of Egyptian jails. He had been originally arrested for participating in an assassination plot against Anwar Sadat. In his public memoirs, he's written about running operations, blowing up the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan in 1995, and his whole voice in this memoir is that of a terrorist operator, a guy who likes to kill people, and who has participated in tactical operations to do that sort of thing. Bin Laden was much more of a theorist, much more of a media figure, more charismatic, and Zawahiri I think gave him a very hard edge when they became partners.
HEMMER: Without Al-Zawahiri, is al Qaeda what it is today?
COLL: Well, I think that he's crucial to the way that al Qaeda metastasized between '98 and 2001, the way it defined its ambitions through operations designed to take large numbers of civilian casualties, the way it chose the United States firmly as its enemy, the way it attempted to create teams. It was not just Al-Zawahiri, but a couple of other Egyptians around him who seemed to run a lot of the recruitment operations that put cells into motion into the United States.
HEMMER: If he is captured, are there reverberations for Pervez Musharraf and his control in Pakistan?
COLL: Well, it would be a big symbolic event, and a clear signal to al Qaeda's followers in the border region that Musharraf is serious about coming after them. It would also obviously be kind of a closure and justice from the American perspective.
What it would mean for al Qaeda operations is a little harder to predict. The organization now is much more dispersed than it was in September of 2001. We see these regional militant groups carrying out attacks semi-autonomously, as we saw in Spain, but certainly Zawahiri must be crucial to what operations are carried out on Pakistani soil, because there is obviously communication going back and forth between the tribal areas and cells inside Pakistan. So from Musharraf's point of view, he would rest a little bit easier if he could clean some of this leadership out of the border areas.
HEMMER: Steve Coll, always a pleasure. Great guest for us here. Author of "Ghost Wars." Appreciate it again.
COLL: Bill, thanks for having me.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad?
O'BRIEN: The president and vice president of Taiwan were both shot today while campaigning for tomorrow's election, their injuries not life threatening. The shots were disguised by fireworks, which were exploding along the parade route.
China continues Taiwan a breakaway province and the election is being closely watched by both Beijing and Washington, D.C. Mike Chinoy is Taipei for us this morning.
Mike, good morning.
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. Well, a close call for Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, and his vice president, Annette Lu. The president hit in the stomach, the vice president hit in the leg. The attempted assassination taking place on the final day of campaigning before Saturday's presidential election. The president is now back here in Taipei. He's going to be speaking to the people of Taiwan shortly.
This is an unprecedented development in Taiwan's young democracy. The political campaigning here has been boisterous but very peaceful, but it's been a very divisive campaign, with Chen and his opponent, former Vice President Lien Chan, bitterly divided by how to deal with neighboring mainland China. Chen wants to push Taiwan towards a more independent posture, Lien Chan wants a more conciliatory approach. The Chinese have warned they'd use force to prevent Taiwan from becoming independent.
No news yet, no word yet, on who may have carried out the attack. The concern of course, is that it might be linked to Chen's policies on mainland China and fuel political tensions here and between Taiwan and Beijing.
Soledad?
O'BRIEN: So they're going to go forward with the election and also that referendum. What overall are the implications, then, of this assassination attempt?
CHINOY: Well, the election is going to go ahead, and also a vote that Chen called the referendum, asking people if they wanted to bolster Taiwan's defenses against the missile threat posed by mainland China. Analysts believe there may now be a kind of wave of sympathy for Chen and in an election that is very, very tight, it could help him. The other big question is, whoever wins this attack may well generate enough ill will and suspicion between the rival political camps that there is some concern about stability in Taiwan, whoever comes out on top on Saturday.
Soledad?
O'BRIEN: Mike Chinoy for us this morning. Mike, thanks a lot for that update.
In tumultuous closed-door hearings overnight, a judge charged three Moroccan men with the direct involvement in last week's Madrid bombings. He sent them, along with two Indian suspects, to prison, pending further investigation.
Earlier today, Spanish authorities released an Algerian man who had been held in connection with the attack. He reportedly told Basque police, quote, "There are going to be some deaths in the Castellano (ph), on the Plaza Castilla and also in Atocha." Two- hundred-two people were killed in those bombings.
HEMMER: In a moment here, hanging on a wire, but getting a helping hand when it is needed most. That's next here on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: In Illinois, a close call for a cable guy. The unidentified contractor was installing cable over a river on Wednesday when his harness slipped. Look at these pictures. It left him dangling from some wires. Emergency crews were able eventually to extend a ladder and rescue him, but witnesses say he stopped for a cigarette before he got in the ambulance, so it couldn't have been that bad.
HEMMER: He was probably relieved?
O'BRIEN: Yes, it sounds like he was just more traumatized than actually injured, thank God.
HEMMER: Cable guy in so many ways. The cable probably saved him.
Jack's back now. CAFFERTY: Is somebody having a sale on ugly plastic furniture?
O'BRIEN: Oh, this is should be the e-mail question of the day for (ph) Monday.
HEMMER: What, you don't think this is attractive? This is really nice. We're going to put this in Soledad's place. And this lovely piece...
CAFFERTY: I mean, they wouldn't sell this crap at Ikea. Look at that.
HEMMER: It's not bad. It's 2.5 inches of plastic.
CAFFERTY: Yes, right.
HEMMER: What's up?
CAFFERTY: Well, besides the ugly furniture we sit on, a lot. Americans are picky people. According to "USA Today," Starbucks features 19,000 ways to have a cup of coffee, Tropicana serves 24 kinds of orange juice, not enough to satisfy Soledad, though. Dreyer's has 250 kinds of ice cream, Frito-Lay, 60 kinds of chips. So our question is this, why are Americans so picky?
Nancy (ph) in Belmont, North Carolina -- because we can afford to be. We may crab about outsourcing, loss of jobs, et cetera, but there are always entrepreneurs out there ready to give us a new product. If you build it, they will buy.
Phillip (ph) in Lafayette, Louisiana -- I don't think Americans are picky. They're spoiled by availability of variety. What about the French, who have 400 varieties of cheese.
Carol (ph) in New York writes that it's not Americans are so picky so much as American businesses are so greedy in their efforts to increase -- never mind.
HEMMER: You don't like that one.
CAFFERTY: It's terrible. It's awful. Try again next week, Carol (ph).
Ken (ph) in Kingston, Nova Scotia -- Jack, some marketing guy at Tropicana probably started a conversation with Soledad and next week we'll see containers of orange juice that are half pulp, half no pulp.
O'BRIEN: They have that. It's called double pulp.
CAFFERTY: I see. Well, you're late, Ken (ph), it's already been done. And Rick (ph) from Crown Point, Indiana writes, hey if I weren't picky, I wouldn't be watching "AMERICAN MORNING," would I? Hey, Rick (ph), don't try to suck up to us.
O'BRIEN: No, he couldn't take it as...
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: Lame, very lame.
O'BRIEN: It works for me. I enjoy other people sucking up to me, yes. Thank you, Rick (ph), we appreciate that. You're very sweet. Thank you.
CAFFERTY: Knock it off, Rick (ph).
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, John Kerry as you've never seen him before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allow myself to introduce myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Believe it or not, this is a commercial. Is the newest Republican National Committee ad hitting below the belt. Our "Give Me a Minute" panel is going to weigh in on that. Stay with us on "AMERICAN MORNINGS."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have had conversations with leaders. I've also had friends of mine who have met with leaders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 19, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Who is this man who is called the brains behind al Qaeda? We'll talk this morning with the managing editor of the "Washington Post" about al Zawahiri and what it means for the war on terror if indeed he is captured.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: That's right, a big story again, and we will not leave it for long.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill. Coming up in the "Cafferty File," a year after the war in Iraq, you wont' believe some of the items that are showing up on eBay, one little item from Saddam's palace. Well, you can get it. And we'll tell you about some devout fans who will go anywhere and cheer for beer...
HEMMER: I know what you...
CAFFERTY: ... and a hotdog. Yes.
HEMMER: I've got lot of them, actually, friends.
CAFFERTY: There you go.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
Let's get to our top story yet again. Pakistani forces say they have supported some 200 al Qaeda fighters, this remote mountainous region near the Afghanistan border. They believe they have cornered Osama bin Laden's second in command, Ayman Al-Zawahiri.
Barbara Starr is from the Pentagon this morning with us now, our first stop this hour. Good morning, Barbara, what do you know now?
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill. Well, by all accounts, reports from the region, the Pakistanis are continuing to move in ground troops, continuing the assault on this area where they believe these al Qaeda fighters are holed up. The Pakistani minister of information saying early today that he expects this operation, one way or the other, to be wrapped up in the next 48 hours. The deadlines to those fighters to surrender have now passed.
Now, the Pakistanis do believe they have cornered Ayman Al- Zawahiri, the number two man in al Qaeda, but of course no one is really sure. Here in Washington, officials are continuing to say this morning they are watching the situation closely and they are waiting to get more information from Islamabad. But the question of course on the table is if it is Al-Zawahiri and if bin Laden is nearby and this goes the way the U.S. hopes it does, what difference will that make to the war on terrorism?
"AMERICAN MORNING" spoke earlier today to General Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff on that very point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Certainly if you capture somebody like Al-Zawahiri, that would be good news because presumably he knows where UBL is or where he was, and if he talks or if he is captured with documents or other material, you might be able to find out where some of that other senior leadership is, absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: But General Myers, of course, also making the point that the war on terrorism will continue no matter what happens, because there is now a belief that al Qaeda has basically devolved to a cellular organization, not a hierarchical organization. In other words, there are al Qaeda operatives spread out, perhaps not taking their direct orders from Osama bin Laden, making the threat still very significant.
Bill?
HEMMER: Barbara, thanks for that. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon this morning.
Soledad?
O'BRIEN: Secretary of State Colin Powell made a surprise visit to Baghdad today on the one-year anniversary of the start of the war. Secretary Powell answered questions during a news conference just about an hour ago.
Walt Rodgers live in Baghdad for us this morning with more.
Walt, good morning.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. Secretary Powell came here to Iraq to reaffirm the American commitment to rebuild this country in the post-Saddam era. He held a news conference and he faced some very tough questions like, can the Americans turn the corner on the rising tide of violence, car bombings, drive-by shootings here? The secretary's answer seemed to be that the Americans are placing their faith on future security here on an embryonic Iraqi security force which, again, is at best embryonic at this point.
He did have to acknowledge there has been a spike in violence in Iraq. There was one very tough question when a reporter quoted the French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin who said terror and terrorism did not exist in Iraq before the American-led invasion.
Villepin also apparently said that the world is less safe after the United States went into Iraq. Secretary of state, as I say, had a difficult time answering that question, but he did say now is not the time to run and hide.
O'BRIEN: Walt, it looks as if we're having a little trouble getting that sound byte for you, so we heard a little bit of the back and forth beyond that.
Can I ask you a quick question about some of the Arab journalists who walked out of that press conference before it began? Secretary Powell walks in, they get up, read a statement and walk out. They're angry because they said the U.S. soldiers were responsible for the deaths of two Arab journalists.
What did the secretary have to say about their complaints?
RODGERS: Well, to reconstruct that, before the secretary even commenced his news conference, an Arab journalist and (INAUDIBLE) Arab journalist from the Dubai network Al Arabia were shot at an American checkpoint. The U.S. secretary of state said there would be an investigation of that, but, again, the Iraqi journalists who were here didn't hang around to hear his answer. They just stood up en masse and walked out.
Journalists are high-priority targets here. As I say, two Arab journalists were killed at an American checkpoint yesterday. A misunderstanding, one car bolted the checkpoint, the soldiers started firing. The Arab journalists were killed in yet another car, but then two days before that, three Iraqi journalists were killed in a drive- by shooting. Hostile environment, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: No question about that. Walt Rodgers, live for us in Baghdad. Walt, thank you for that update.
HEMMER: Other news now, critical news from Taiwan. The president and the vice president reportedly released now from a hospital. The president, Chen Shui-bian was shot across the stomach, and the vice president, Annette Lu, grazed by a bullet in the leg.
Presidential spokesperson says the two were campaigning in a parade at the time. The shootings come as the island gets ready for weekend elections, including a controversial referendum that China considers a step toward Taiwan's own independence.
This country now, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia rejecting a request that he recuse himself from the upcoming case involving the vice president, Dick Cheney. An environmental group suggesting a potential conflict of interest after both men attended a January hunting trip.
Scalia says he did not remember ever being alone with Cheney on that trip, and they never talked about this case. The vice president is fighting a federal court's order that it release internal files of a task force he headed up for the Bush administration.
The Tennessee county that was the site of the Scopes monkey trial reversing itself on a call to ban homosexuals. The commissioners in Rhea county quickly retreated from their vote earlier in the week to call for a change in state law to charge gays with crimes against nature. Commissioners claim all they wanted to do was support a ban on same-sex marriage.
New security measures for flights within U.S. airspace. The TSA, ordering international airlines to keep their cockpit doors locked when flying to, from and over the U.S. This after a passenger complained that a cockpit door had been left open during an overseas flight to the U.S.
You're up to date now, 8:07 here in New York City.
O'BRIEN: And 33 degrees, which means -- remember Chad (ph), 20 minutes ago I said it's not snowing, Chad (ph), it's raining. Well, it dropped a degree. Now, it's snowing.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Let's turn now to politics. Gone, but certainly not forgotten could be Howard Dean's epitaph. A month after dropping out of the race, the former Democratic candidate is launching a different kind of grassroots campaign. It's called Democracy for America. He joins us this morning to talk a little bit about that new political organization. Also, of course, the Bush-Kerry battle.
Good morning. Nice to see you.
HOWARD DEAN (D-MA), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And good morning. Thanks for having me on.
O'BRIEN: My pleasure. Let's talk a little bit first President Bush and some of the responses that you've had. You said the other day in a conference call with reporters the president was the one who dragged our troops to Iraq, which apparently has been a factor in the deaths of 200 Spaniards over the weekend. This is a while (ph) back. What exactly did you mean by that?
DEAN: Just exactly what I said. The notes and the videotapes from the terrorists made it clear that their attack on Spain was in part retaliation for the Spanish government sending troops to Iraq in support of what we were doing there.
O'BRIEN: So there were some people who sort of did the math on that and said, OK, so you're saying that the deaths of 201 Spaniards is the fault of the U.S.
DEAN: No, I said no such thing, and some enterprising print reporter -- actually, in fairness to the print reporters, they were spoon-fed by the White House, who claimed I said that. Of course, I said nothing of the sort.
You know, politics is a tough game. But I do think the print reporters have got to be a little more careful before they make up stories that aren't so.
O'BRIEN: At the same time...
DEAN: And then they went over and told John Kerry what the White House had said I said... O'BRIEN: My next question for you.
DEAN: ... which wasn't true, so they had Senator Kerry trapped into responding to something that the White House said, not that I said. This is a ridiculous flap caused by too much time on the hands of print reporters.
O'BRIEN: Yes, in fact, he said something like that's not our position.
DEAN: Sure.
O'BRIEN: And you say that comment was actually a response to...
DEAN: To the White House.
O'BRIEN: ... something that was not happening at all.
DEAN: It was a response to the White House. That's a ridiculous non-story.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about the poll numbers. When you see -- compare Senator Kerry and President Bush and you look at the issues of national security, terrorism, Iraq, world affairs, Kerry drags. I mean, he's...
DEAN: But you know what, that's going to change. Here are two guys, not one of whom who have ever served a day overseas in their life in defense of their country, Dick Cheney and George Bush, attacking John Kerry, who has got three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star, a decorated Vietnam War veteran. This is ridiculous. This country would be far safer and better off with John Kerry as president...
O'BRIEN: How do you change the perception, then? Because clearly -- I get that polls change, but how do you change the perception early on, because that's a message that I think has gotten out very clearly, that Senator Kerry has a wonderful, amazing experience in Vietnam, obviously a war hero, everyone concedes that. But the public doesn't give him points then for national security.
DEAN: Oh, I think the public will give him points. Don't forget, the president's an incumbent. He's been there for three years. Where the president is really going to sink, though, is not on defense, it's on jobs and credibility. The president has been saying a lot of things that aren't true. He got us into Iraq by saying a lot of things that weren't true. For example, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with al Qaeda.
Saddam Hussein is a terrible person, I'm glad he's gone, but it had nothing to do with terrorism. And he admitted that himself. The key, however, is that the president's people deliberately lied to Congress by preventing civil servants from telling the truth about how much the Medicare prescription bill cost, a bill that funneled millions and billions of our taxpayer dollars to the HMOs and drug companies. Credibility is going to become the biggest issue in this race, not even jobs or health care or the war, it's going to become can you believe this president. And that's an area I think the president is very weak on, because he said so many things that aren't so.
O'BRIEN: You've got a new organization called Democracy for America. What exactly is it, and why did you start it?
DEAN: We want to continue what we were doing in the campaign. One way to get rid of special interests and corporate influence in Washington, which is just killing ordinary Americans trying to make a living is to help politicians raise money in small donations. So we're going to get people to run for office, for school boards, for city council...
O'BRIEN: That small?
DEAN: ... for state legislature.
O'BRIEN: At the very bottom.
DEAN: Start at the bottom, and you help them raise money through the Web, like we did, in small donations. We're going to help Congress. We'd like to send Tom DeLay back to Texas, along with George Bush, because these are far right people. They don't belong in the government of this country. The country is not -- this not a right-wing country. Our problem here is that we have a leadership that is not as good as the hearts of the American people, and that's what we want to change.
O'BRIEN: Howard Dean joining us this morning.
It's nice to see you. Thanks for coming in to talk to us.
DEAN: Thanks, Soledad. It was my pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Bill?
HEMMER: About 12 minutes past the hour. In a moment, who is Ayman Al-Zawahiri? What would his capture mean in the fight against al Qaeda. We'll get to those critical issues in a moment here, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Also, new developments into the investigation of the Madrid train attacks. We've got the latest on that just ahead.
HEMMER: And a man on a wire and his dramatic rescue, ahead this hour on "AMERICAN MORNING."
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HEMMER: From Pakistan this morning, forces there say they have surrounded 200 al Qaeda fighters, this remote mountainous region near the border with Afghanistan, forbidden country for so many. They have called for the fighters to surrender and believe they're protecting Osama bin Laden's second in command, Ayman Al-Zawahiri. What would his capture mean in the current war on terror? Steve Coll is back with us, the author of "Ghost Wars," managing editor of the "Washington Post" as well. There's his book. He is our guest.
Good morning, Steve, welcome back to "AMERICAN MORNING."
STEVE COLL, "WASHINGTON POST": Bill, good to see you again.
HEMMER: What do you believe is at play here in Pakistan today?
COLL: Well, it's hard to tell who is exactly behind this wall, but as you suggest, there is obviously an enormous firefight that is either about to unfold, or a surrender that will prevent it. There are perhaps a dozen or more leader who could be generating this kind of resistance, but I'm reading the same reports that you are, that Zawahiri is being cited by the Pakistanis as the most likely person behind the wall.
HEMMER: Condoleezza Rice was our guest last hour, Steve. She says the administration has no exact information on who is there. Sound right to you?
COLL: Yes, that's consistent with what I'm hearing. In this part of the world, the militants up there wouldn't need a lot of reason to shoot out Pakistani troops. They're regarded as alien as the Americans are. Also, it's an area where there is a lot of drug manufacturing, heroin labs, smuggling. It might be different kinds of assets that groups of fighters would be protecting.
HEMMER: Give our audience an indication here about how powerful Ayman Al-Zawahiri was. Jane Harman, a Democrat from California had -- I'm paraphrasing now. If Osama bin Laden, this man is the symbol for al Qaeda, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, the man to Osama bin Laden's right in this videotape, screen left, is the brains behind the operation. Can you expand on that for us?
COLL: Well, he was much more of a violent operator than bin Laden at the time that they formed their alliance early in 1998. Zawahiri was a veteran of Egyptian jails. He had been originally arrested for participating in an assassination plot against Anwar Sadat. In his public memoirs, he's written about running operations, blowing up the Egyptian embassy in Pakistan in 1995, and his whole voice in this memoir is that of a terrorist operator, a guy who likes to kill people, and who has participated in tactical operations to do that sort of thing. Bin Laden was much more of a theorist, much more of a media figure, more charismatic, and Zawahiri I think gave him a very hard edge when they became partners.
HEMMER: Without Al-Zawahiri, is al Qaeda what it is today?
COLL: Well, I think that he's crucial to the way that al Qaeda metastasized between '98 and 2001, the way it defined its ambitions through operations designed to take large numbers of civilian casualties, the way it chose the United States firmly as its enemy, the way it attempted to create teams. It was not just Al-Zawahiri, but a couple of other Egyptians around him who seemed to run a lot of the recruitment operations that put cells into motion into the United States.
HEMMER: If he is captured, are there reverberations for Pervez Musharraf and his control in Pakistan?
COLL: Well, it would be a big symbolic event, and a clear signal to al Qaeda's followers in the border region that Musharraf is serious about coming after them. It would also obviously be kind of a closure and justice from the American perspective.
What it would mean for al Qaeda operations is a little harder to predict. The organization now is much more dispersed than it was in September of 2001. We see these regional militant groups carrying out attacks semi-autonomously, as we saw in Spain, but certainly Zawahiri must be crucial to what operations are carried out on Pakistani soil, because there is obviously communication going back and forth between the tribal areas and cells inside Pakistan. So from Musharraf's point of view, he would rest a little bit easier if he could clean some of this leadership out of the border areas.
HEMMER: Steve Coll, always a pleasure. Great guest for us here. Author of "Ghost Wars." Appreciate it again.
COLL: Bill, thanks for having me.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad?
O'BRIEN: The president and vice president of Taiwan were both shot today while campaigning for tomorrow's election, their injuries not life threatening. The shots were disguised by fireworks, which were exploding along the parade route.
China continues Taiwan a breakaway province and the election is being closely watched by both Beijing and Washington, D.C. Mike Chinoy is Taipei for us this morning.
Mike, good morning.
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. Well, a close call for Taiwan's president, Chen Shui-bian, and his vice president, Annette Lu. The president hit in the stomach, the vice president hit in the leg. The attempted assassination taking place on the final day of campaigning before Saturday's presidential election. The president is now back here in Taipei. He's going to be speaking to the people of Taiwan shortly.
This is an unprecedented development in Taiwan's young democracy. The political campaigning here has been boisterous but very peaceful, but it's been a very divisive campaign, with Chen and his opponent, former Vice President Lien Chan, bitterly divided by how to deal with neighboring mainland China. Chen wants to push Taiwan towards a more independent posture, Lien Chan wants a more conciliatory approach. The Chinese have warned they'd use force to prevent Taiwan from becoming independent.
No news yet, no word yet, on who may have carried out the attack. The concern of course, is that it might be linked to Chen's policies on mainland China and fuel political tensions here and between Taiwan and Beijing.
Soledad?
O'BRIEN: So they're going to go forward with the election and also that referendum. What overall are the implications, then, of this assassination attempt?
CHINOY: Well, the election is going to go ahead, and also a vote that Chen called the referendum, asking people if they wanted to bolster Taiwan's defenses against the missile threat posed by mainland China. Analysts believe there may now be a kind of wave of sympathy for Chen and in an election that is very, very tight, it could help him. The other big question is, whoever wins this attack may well generate enough ill will and suspicion between the rival political camps that there is some concern about stability in Taiwan, whoever comes out on top on Saturday.
Soledad?
O'BRIEN: Mike Chinoy for us this morning. Mike, thanks a lot for that update.
In tumultuous closed-door hearings overnight, a judge charged three Moroccan men with the direct involvement in last week's Madrid bombings. He sent them, along with two Indian suspects, to prison, pending further investigation.
Earlier today, Spanish authorities released an Algerian man who had been held in connection with the attack. He reportedly told Basque police, quote, "There are going to be some deaths in the Castellano (ph), on the Plaza Castilla and also in Atocha." Two- hundred-two people were killed in those bombings.
HEMMER: In a moment here, hanging on a wire, but getting a helping hand when it is needed most. That's next here on "AMERICAN MORNING."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: In Illinois, a close call for a cable guy. The unidentified contractor was installing cable over a river on Wednesday when his harness slipped. Look at these pictures. It left him dangling from some wires. Emergency crews were able eventually to extend a ladder and rescue him, but witnesses say he stopped for a cigarette before he got in the ambulance, so it couldn't have been that bad.
HEMMER: He was probably relieved?
O'BRIEN: Yes, it sounds like he was just more traumatized than actually injured, thank God.
HEMMER: Cable guy in so many ways. The cable probably saved him.
Jack's back now. CAFFERTY: Is somebody having a sale on ugly plastic furniture?
O'BRIEN: Oh, this is should be the e-mail question of the day for (ph) Monday.
HEMMER: What, you don't think this is attractive? This is really nice. We're going to put this in Soledad's place. And this lovely piece...
CAFFERTY: I mean, they wouldn't sell this crap at Ikea. Look at that.
HEMMER: It's not bad. It's 2.5 inches of plastic.
CAFFERTY: Yes, right.
HEMMER: What's up?
CAFFERTY: Well, besides the ugly furniture we sit on, a lot. Americans are picky people. According to "USA Today," Starbucks features 19,000 ways to have a cup of coffee, Tropicana serves 24 kinds of orange juice, not enough to satisfy Soledad, though. Dreyer's has 250 kinds of ice cream, Frito-Lay, 60 kinds of chips. So our question is this, why are Americans so picky?
Nancy (ph) in Belmont, North Carolina -- because we can afford to be. We may crab about outsourcing, loss of jobs, et cetera, but there are always entrepreneurs out there ready to give us a new product. If you build it, they will buy.
Phillip (ph) in Lafayette, Louisiana -- I don't think Americans are picky. They're spoiled by availability of variety. What about the French, who have 400 varieties of cheese.
Carol (ph) in New York writes that it's not Americans are so picky so much as American businesses are so greedy in their efforts to increase -- never mind.
HEMMER: You don't like that one.
CAFFERTY: It's terrible. It's awful. Try again next week, Carol (ph).
Ken (ph) in Kingston, Nova Scotia -- Jack, some marketing guy at Tropicana probably started a conversation with Soledad and next week we'll see containers of orange juice that are half pulp, half no pulp.
O'BRIEN: They have that. It's called double pulp.
CAFFERTY: I see. Well, you're late, Ken (ph), it's already been done. And Rick (ph) from Crown Point, Indiana writes, hey if I weren't picky, I wouldn't be watching "AMERICAN MORNING," would I? Hey, Rick (ph), don't try to suck up to us.
O'BRIEN: No, he couldn't take it as...
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: Lame, very lame.
O'BRIEN: It works for me. I enjoy other people sucking up to me, yes. Thank you, Rick (ph), we appreciate that. You're very sweet. Thank you.
CAFFERTY: Knock it off, Rick (ph).
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, John Kerry as you've never seen him before.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allow myself to introduce myself.
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O'BRIEN: Believe it or not, this is a commercial. Is the newest Republican National Committee ad hitting below the belt. Our "Give Me a Minute" panel is going to weigh in on that. Stay with us on "AMERICAN MORNINGS."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have had conversations with leaders. I've also had friends of mine who have met with leaders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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