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American Morning
Interviews With 9/11 Commission Chairman Thomas Kean, Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton; Kerry Under Surveillance for Vietnam Anti-War Activities
Aired March 23, 2004 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. Welcome, everybody. It is exactly half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
What does the 9/11 Commission hope to learn this morning when top members of the current and former administrations are called to testify? We're going to find out from the chairman and vice chairman of the commission in just a few moments.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Also, testimony in the Jayson Williams' manslaughter trial on hold yesterday and today. Defense lawyers asking the judge for an acquittal, throw the case out. Do they think that might actually happen? If not, what is the strategy when court resumes tomorrow on Wednesday? We'll get to it in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Other stories making news this morning. The U.S. planning to heighten train safety following this month's train attacks in Madrid, Spain. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says the train and rail operators have been asked to step up security, and the department will begin testing a new way to screen passengers and their luggage as early as the spring. A Senate committee is meeting today to discuss what more can be done to protect railroads from possible attacks.
Top White House officials are stepping up their defense against former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke. They are describing him as a disgruntled employee with a political agenda. Clarke claims that the September 11 attacks could have been prevented had the Bush administration taken a more urgent interest in the threat from al Qaeda. A senior official says President Bush has personally approved the strategy to rebut those claims.
A U.S. Army chaplain, initially accused of espionage, has been reprimanded for downloading pornography and adultery. James Yee says he will appeal the decision after yesterday's hearing in Virginia. Yee served as a Muslim chaplain for suspected al Qaeda and Taliban detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The Army formally charged him with the mishandling of classified information, but then later dropped those charges.
And a little show and tell got a little out of hand at a Indianapolis preschool. Authorities say a 4-year-old took crack cocaine out of his backpack to show it the other kids, telling them he thought it was flour. Well, the teachers realized, in fact, it was cocaine, called the police, who are now looking for the boy's parents. He and a sister have now been placed in protective custody. Four years old. That is unbelievable.
HEMMER: Not the kind of science experiment you want, huh?
O'BRIEN: Wow!
HEMMER: No way.
(WEATHER BREAK)
HEMMER: How could it happen? And could it happen again? Two major questions at the heart of the investigation by the 9/11 Commission today. Members of the Bush and Clinton teams on the hot seat when the commission holds its eighth public hearing.
A bit earlier today, I talked with the chairman of that commission, Thomas Kean, and the vice chairman, Lee Hamilton, asking Governor Kean first about today's mission.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
THOMAS KEAN, CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: Our mission today is to hear from the highest levels of the government in both the Clinton and the Bush administration to try and determine what the policy was, what the intelligence was, what the military capabilities were, and what decisions were made in a coordinated way that affected 9/11, leading up to that event.
HEMMER: By the time...
KEAN: In other words...
HEMMER: By the time your hearings are over tomorrow afternoon, will you answer those questions?
KEAN: Yes, we're going to go a good way toward the answer to those questions, because we'll have the top policymakers in both administrations telling us what they thought and what they did.
HEMMER: Dr. Rice will not testify publicly, Representative Hamilton, but she will speak in private. Can you get a complete picture without her public testimony, sir?
LEE HAMILTON, VICE CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: We think we will have a lot of information from Dr. Rice. She's been very good, very patient with the commission. She's given us four, maybe four and a half hours, and has said she's willing to come back. We're hopeful that she would speak also publicly, but the White House saw fit not to have her testify publicly. We are disappointed in that, because we think that the American people would benefit from hearing from her.
But the administration will send Secretary Armitage here. He will be a good witness for the administration, and we look forward to hearing from him.
HEMMER: On a similar note there, there have been reports that the White House is grudgingly giving you information. Do you believe that to be the case? And has there been any sense of stonewalling from the White House?
LEE: I personally do not accept the word "stonewalling." We've been dealing with some very difficult issues. There's no doubt at all that the negotiations have slowed us down in getting the material that we wanted. That's one of the reasons we asked for an extension. But we have almost all of the documents we have requested. There may be a few not yet in our possession. I don't know of any official witness that has not been available to us.
This hearing today and tomorrow is, so far as I know, rather unique in the history of Washington, with all of these big power players coming together in a matter of two days.
So, we've been slowed down. We've had conditions put on us sometimes that are a little too restrictive, but by and large we're going to have the information we need to do the job.
HEMMER: Back to Governor Kean, if I could. Richard Clarke has a book out. It has been the talk of Washington, from my understanding, from my position here in New York, suggesting that the White House botched the war on terror. At this point in your investigation, can you say whether or not that's the case?
KEAN: No, and we shouldn't at this point, because our investigation still has a number of months to run. We've taken over 15 hours of private testimony from Mr. Clarke. We've taken testimony from figures in this White House and the Clinton White House. We'll do more of that today. We're not in shape to make a judgment yet. I recognize what Mr. Clarke is saying. He's got a book out there, but it's too early for the commission to make a judgment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: That interview from earlier today.
This morning's 9/11 hearings start at 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time on Capitol Hill. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is scheduled to testify first, 9:30 a.m. Eastern. We'll have it live for you from D.C. then -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Senator John Kerry's combat experience in Vietnam has gained much attention in his bid for the White House, but it was his outspoken opposition to that war that drew the attention of President Nixon three decades ago.
National correspondent Kelly Wallace has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to keep coming back until this war ends.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As John Kerry stepped into the national spotlight in 1971, the Nixon administration's FBI stepped up its monitoring of Kerry and the group he helped direct, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, also known as VVAW.
GERALD NICOSIA, AUTHOR, "HOME TO WAR": Nixon and the FBI saw VVAW as a major, major threat to the United States.
WALLACE: Gerald Nicosia is author of the book, "Home to War," a history of the Vietnam veterans' movement.
NICOSIA: They really believed that these veterans were going to come to Washington with, you know, rifles and armaments storm -- and create a coup, you know, storm the White House, kill the president, take over the government.
WALLACE: But it wasn't until Nicosia recently reviewed 20,000 pages of FBI documents he obtained five years ago that the extent Kerry himself was followed by FBI agents became public. The documents note the mundane, like how many people Kerry talked to and what he said. Like here, calling for a political process to bring an end to the war.
Through a spokesman, the vacationing senator told CNN -- quote -- "It is almost surreal to learn the extent to which I was followed by the FBI."
White House tapes show President Nixon keeping tabs on Kerry. Here, he talks with his special counsel, Charles Colson.
CHARLES COLSON, FMR. WHITE HOUSE SPECIAL COUNSEL: He was in Vietnam a total of four months. He's politically ambitious and just looking for an issue. He came back a hawk and became a dove when he saw the political opportunities.
RICHAD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sure. Well, anyway, keep the faith.
COLSON: We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President.
WALLACE: The documents also do something else. They place John Kerry at a November 1971 convention in Kansas City, Missouri, where three Vietnam veterans tell CNN there was discussion at some point of an idea to kill U.S. leaders who supported the war. Nicosia says veterans told him the idea was viewed as ludicrous.
NICOSIA: Screaming, throwing chairs in the air. this is mad, this is crazy. What do you think, we're going to be assassinating people?
WALLACE: There is no confirmation that Kerry heard any of that. He says he has no memory of attending the Kansas City gathering.
(on camera): The FBI never linked Kerry to any violent activity and ended its surveillance in May, 1972. But the question now is: Could the Vietnam era past that Kerry is touting on the campaign trail also end up causing him some harm?
Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: During testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971, Senator Kerry blamed President Nixon for prolonging the war in Vietnam -- Bill
HEMMER: On a lighter note this morning, his campaign is flagging, but Dennis Kucinich is still out there. Last night on David Letterman, the top 10 ways Dennis Kucinich could still be the next president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, "LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": No. 4.
DAVID KUCINICH (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just wait until I unleash my new campaign slogan, "Kucizzle in the hizzle."
LETTERMAN: What does that mean? Does that mean anything?
KUCINICH: I don't think it does.
LETTERMAN: No. 3.
KUCINICH: According to the order of presidential succession, if George W. Bush were to resign today, along with Dick Cheney and about 300 other people, the presidency passes to a congressman from Ohio.
LETTERMAN: Well, I had no idea. I did not know that. No. 2.
KUCINICH: Get the governors of every state to rig the election.
LETTERMAN: There you go. And the No. 1 way Dennis Kucinich can still be the next president of the United States.
KUCINICH: I'm praying for a sex scandal.
LETTERMAN: There you go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Kucinich with Letterman. Some ideas to chew on that.
HEMMER: He's really loosened up. I mean, the first time he was on, he was doing the top 10 list. He was very stiff. And now he's like, he could be filling in, you know.
HEMMER: Who's been on there? Dean and Gephardt and John Edwards? They've all gotten their crack at it.
O'BRIEN: Sharpton, of course.
HEMMER: Yes, Sharpton, that's right, yes.
O'BRIEN: Is that right? Yes, he has. HEMMER: All good, funny stuff.
O'BRIEN: Yes, all right. That's funny. That cracked me up.
Still to come this morning, former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke isn't backing down from his claims that the White House ignored the threat of terror. We're going to hear what a Republican congressman thinks about that uproar just ahead.
HEMMER: Also, if jurors in the trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams get a tour of his mansion, how will that affect the testimony and the evidence in the trial? Ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: The defense in the trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams wants jurors to visit his New Jersey estate. Williams' lawyer say jurors need to see the shooting scene to understand why a limo driver's death was an accident, not manslaughter. The judge may rule on the request today.
Joining us to talk about it is criminal defense attorney Brian Neary. He represented Jayson Williams on a gun charge 10 years ago.
Nice to see you again as always. Thanks.
BRIAN NEARY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Why exactly would the defense want all of the jurors to pack up, go out to Jersey and basically tour the estate where the shooting happened?
NEARY: I think they want to add a third dimension to the scene itself, to allow the jurors to see what the real space distances are, to see what the angles are, how people could see. Remember, there are a lot of eyewitnesses who have testified to a number of different things. The defense, I think, believes that they want to show the jurors that some of the witnesses couldn't see what they say that they saw.
O'BRIEN: The prosecution doesn't want it to happen. In fact, they want everybody to rely on these photographs that we've seen already from the scene. Why not just go by photographs?
NEARY: Well, that dimension of real space may become important. The prosecutor doesn't want them to go, I think, for the reasons: (a), that they've seen all of it. They've got pictures and they've got videos. Secondly, that it may not be the same scene. The prosecutor is saying, this is two years later. Is the scene going to be recreated? And the third is they think it may be prejudicial to their case. In essence, that the jurors get to see the Williams' house, to see that there are people who live there and may feel some measure of sympathy to the family as to what's really at stake here in the trial. O'BRIEN: So, you're saying when you recreate or have the jurors come through two years later, you could have pictures of the family. He's got a little child. You could sort of see the bedroom. And you think that might make -- or the prosecution fears that might make the jurors sympathetic?
NEARY: I think that that's one of the things they articulated. If they think back almost 10 years ago to the Simpson case, where the people -- where the jurors went to the Simpson house, and I think they either set up a Heisman trophy or there was some representation of who, in fact, he was beyond a criminal defendant. The argument might have had some effect. I don't think the prosecutor wants to add that element to the case at this point.
O'BRIEN: Couldn't it be prejudicial in the other way? Here, you see a guy who's got a ton of money. I mean, the estate, even just from the aerial shots, is a sprawling, massive mansion. Aren't there concerns that the jurors would be -- would say, wow, this is a person who I don't identify with at all? I mean, he's got, you know, goo (ph) gobs of money.
NEARY: It very well could be. And there was an issue very early in the case that the pictures taken by the police illustrated some of the opulent -- some of the size and the wealth of the house, as well as the sporting -- the sports connection. And, in that, that that was an effort to either overlook the scene or to prejudice the jury against Mr. Williams.
O'BRIEN: How does it work exactly? They put all of the jurors in a shuttle bus, drag them out there. Do they get to ask questions at the scene? How does it work?
NEARY: It's like a judicial day trip. There's no interaction between the jurors, between the judge, between the lawyers. The jurors are usually brought under guard by sheriffs. They're taken to the scene. Usually, it's orchestrated where, in fact, they will go. They'll be led on a particular route through wherever the location is, only the relevant parts. Nobody talks to them, and they don't talk among themselves as to what this is, what that is, what the measurements, point out anything. That's all saved for the time that they actually start to deliberate.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. Do you think the judge is going to agree to it?
NEARY: I think so. He's been open before. And I think it adds a dimension to the case, in a case that everyone has taken great care in terms of evidence and in terms of presentation. I think he might let them do it.
O'BRIEN: All right, Brian Neary, we will see if you're right. Thanks, as always.
NEARY: Thanks, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Nice to see you -- Bill. HEMMER: Singer Bobby Brown is out of a jail in Georgia this morning, three days early. Officials back in the state of Virginia are demanding he go to a emergency family court hearing tomorrow in their state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY BROWN, SINGER: I love you. This is the last time you will see me coming out of here or going in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Yes, Brown is married to music diva Whitney Houston. He was serving 60 days for violating probation on a drunken driving charges. He was set to get out on Thursday of this week -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, how strong is the housing boom? We're going to find out if it's still a sellers' market as AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: All right. Home prices, an amazing track record. How long, though, can that boom last? All morning long we're looking at the housing market, what moves you might want to make now to get ready for it.
Gerri Willis back with us today -- Andy Serwer is out for the week -- "Minding Your Business."
Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Good to have you here.
GERRI WILLIS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: So the bubble.
WILLIS: Yes. You know that bubble?.
HEMMER: Is it strong or is it bursting?
WILLIS: It is not bursting, according to the experts, unless interest rates spike this year. You're going to continue to see housing prices going up. Look at these numbers that we have for you. We've got the national average up 7.4 percent this year. That's last year up 9 percent. Check these individual cities out. Los Angeles up 15 percent this year.
HEMMER: Wow!
WILLIS: The big problem there, there's just not enough inventory for people. Everybody's fighting over the same houses. You see the same story in New York. Keep in mind here that what happened over the last few years, you know, we had an amazing boom. Remember San Francisco prices going up 25 percent?
HEMMER: Oh, yes. Yes. WILLIS: They had one year where they were down 10 percent. That was 2001. And what has happened since then? They've made up all that ground.
HEMMER: Is that right?
WILLIS: And more.
HEMMER: And they're coming back.
WILLIS: That's right.
HEMMER: Places like Houston, Texas, talking about it, too. A lot of retail space open.
WILLIS: Right.
HEMMER: Commercial business downtown. If you're looking for to buy.
WILLIS: Right.
HEMMER: How do you know whether or not it's affordable to you? Or where do you start?
WILLIS: Well, the thing to think about here, condo sales have gone through the roof. And normally what we'd say is, hey, look at a condo, because they're typically cheaper than houses. Not so anymore. They're actually more expensive for the first time ever fourth quarter. Think about downsizing if you're trying to buy and having a hard time getting into the market, maybe fewer bedrooms, maybe not the exact neighborhood that you want.
And then to keep from getting into a bidding war, because that's typically what happens in this market, people are bidding prices up, up, up, make sure you're ready to go as soon as you go to that open house. You've got your pre-approvals from the bank in line. You've got your banker. You even have the home inspector ready to go so you can buy.
HEMMER: That's for those who are prepared, unlike people like me.
The markets...
WILLIS: You've got to get here.
HEMMER: I'm with you, Gerri. Tough day for the markets yesterday again. Triple digit losses for the Dow 30.
WILLIS: Yes, you bet.
HEMMER: The pressure is coming from where?
WILLIS: Well, you know, terrorism. Everybody is worried about terrorism. The economy is not creating the jobs people expected. Lots of worry about that. You can see the numbers here.
You know, I think what's going on here is that there's so much uncertainty continuing, especially with terrorism. We've seen the major indexes come down 5 percent from their highs at the beginning of the year. It's just not good news for the stock market, despite the underlying, earnings have been taken higher and higher and higher.
HEMMER: Pretty decent run, though, for the bulls lately.
WILLIS: You bet. Well, until now.
HEMMER: And they should go back to two weeks. Until now, exactly. Gerri, great to have you.
WILLIS: Thanks so much.
HEMMER: Next hour with more. OK -- Soledad.
WILLIS: That's right.
O'BRIEN: Jack is here with the question of the day. Hello.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: The house across the street for me, on the market for twice what it sold for three years ago.
HEMMER: Three years ago.
CAFFERTY: Three years ago. It doubled in three years.
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: Jack's neighborhood.
O'BRIEN: That's unbelievable.
CAFFERTY: Yes, but, I mean, it's just -- you know, it's indicative of what's happening to home prices.
The U.S. Supreme Court, or more correctly, the Supreme Court of the United States will decide what the phrase "under God" means. Starting tomorrow, they'll hear the case brought by a atheist in California who doesn't want his 9-year-old daughter exposed to the phrase "under God" when saying the Pledge of Allegiance. In June of 2002, a San Francisco appellate court ruled that reciting the Pledge in schools with "under God" in it is unconstitutional.
So, the question is: Should it be in there or not, the words, "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?
Eric in Medina, Ohio, is a Christian pastor and lawyer. "I would prefer the words 'under God' be removed from the Pledge. The reason is simple. Under American law those words can only remain if the court determines them to be de minimus. That means a trivial matter. If they are more than trivial, their presence is a violation of the First Amendment."
Jim writes: "Why is it a child can't pray in school but can when he or she is in prison?"
Luther writes: "I don't think the phrase, 'under God,' should be in the Pledge. It was born from McCarthyism fear. It should have been retired with him."
Tom writes: "Somewhere along the way, the federal courts and Supreme Court have misinterpreted the U.S. Constitution. How could 50 states be wrong?" He points out that the preambles to virtually all of the state constitutions in this country make a referenced to God.
And Weldon writes from Newmarket, Ontario: "It does have a better ring than 'under Bush,' doesn't it?"
That's all I have at this time.
O'BRIEN: That was very funny.
CAFFERTY: This concludes my portion of the program.
O'BRIEN: Well, thank you very much, until next time.
CAFFERTY: Until next time...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: We're calling your neighbor, by the way.
CAFFERTY: It's my time. It's your time.
O'BRIEN: Yes, you know, we were thinking about that, and actually I think they doubled it...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: ... your neighbor.
CAFFERTY: What's that?
HEMMER: They sold their house for double the money.
O'BRIEN: Because you're next door.
CAFFERTY: They haven't sold it yet. I said it's on the market.
HEMMER: Oh, it's on -- all right.
O'BRIEN: Because you're next door.
CAFFERTY: It's -- it sold three years ago, and now it's being sold again.
HEMMER: I see.
CAFFERTY: These people bought it three years ago, and now they're trying to sell it. O'BRIEN: Yes, because, they say, and an added bonus, Jack Cafferty lives across the street. Their ergo is going to cost you $350,000 more.
CAFFERTY: I am so sorry I brought this up.
O'BRIEN: Come on, Jack.
CAFFERTY: If I didn't live across the street they could get three times the price.
O'BRIEN: That's funny.
Still to come this morning, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is among those in the hot seat today before a panel looking into the September 11 attacks. We're going to take you live to the Pentagon in just a moment. Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
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Aired March 23, 2004 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. Welcome, everybody. It is exactly half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
What does the 9/11 Commission hope to learn this morning when top members of the current and former administrations are called to testify? We're going to find out from the chairman and vice chairman of the commission in just a few moments.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Also, testimony in the Jayson Williams' manslaughter trial on hold yesterday and today. Defense lawyers asking the judge for an acquittal, throw the case out. Do they think that might actually happen? If not, what is the strategy when court resumes tomorrow on Wednesday? We'll get to it in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Other stories making news this morning. The U.S. planning to heighten train safety following this month's train attacks in Madrid, Spain. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge says the train and rail operators have been asked to step up security, and the department will begin testing a new way to screen passengers and their luggage as early as the spring. A Senate committee is meeting today to discuss what more can be done to protect railroads from possible attacks.
Top White House officials are stepping up their defense against former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke. They are describing him as a disgruntled employee with a political agenda. Clarke claims that the September 11 attacks could have been prevented had the Bush administration taken a more urgent interest in the threat from al Qaeda. A senior official says President Bush has personally approved the strategy to rebut those claims.
A U.S. Army chaplain, initially accused of espionage, has been reprimanded for downloading pornography and adultery. James Yee says he will appeal the decision after yesterday's hearing in Virginia. Yee served as a Muslim chaplain for suspected al Qaeda and Taliban detainees at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. The Army formally charged him with the mishandling of classified information, but then later dropped those charges.
And a little show and tell got a little out of hand at a Indianapolis preschool. Authorities say a 4-year-old took crack cocaine out of his backpack to show it the other kids, telling them he thought it was flour. Well, the teachers realized, in fact, it was cocaine, called the police, who are now looking for the boy's parents. He and a sister have now been placed in protective custody. Four years old. That is unbelievable.
HEMMER: Not the kind of science experiment you want, huh?
O'BRIEN: Wow!
HEMMER: No way.
(WEATHER BREAK)
HEMMER: How could it happen? And could it happen again? Two major questions at the heart of the investigation by the 9/11 Commission today. Members of the Bush and Clinton teams on the hot seat when the commission holds its eighth public hearing.
A bit earlier today, I talked with the chairman of that commission, Thomas Kean, and the vice chairman, Lee Hamilton, asking Governor Kean first about today's mission.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
THOMAS KEAN, CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: Our mission today is to hear from the highest levels of the government in both the Clinton and the Bush administration to try and determine what the policy was, what the intelligence was, what the military capabilities were, and what decisions were made in a coordinated way that affected 9/11, leading up to that event.
HEMMER: By the time...
KEAN: In other words...
HEMMER: By the time your hearings are over tomorrow afternoon, will you answer those questions?
KEAN: Yes, we're going to go a good way toward the answer to those questions, because we'll have the top policymakers in both administrations telling us what they thought and what they did.
HEMMER: Dr. Rice will not testify publicly, Representative Hamilton, but she will speak in private. Can you get a complete picture without her public testimony, sir?
LEE HAMILTON, VICE CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: We think we will have a lot of information from Dr. Rice. She's been very good, very patient with the commission. She's given us four, maybe four and a half hours, and has said she's willing to come back. We're hopeful that she would speak also publicly, but the White House saw fit not to have her testify publicly. We are disappointed in that, because we think that the American people would benefit from hearing from her.
But the administration will send Secretary Armitage here. He will be a good witness for the administration, and we look forward to hearing from him.
HEMMER: On a similar note there, there have been reports that the White House is grudgingly giving you information. Do you believe that to be the case? And has there been any sense of stonewalling from the White House?
LEE: I personally do not accept the word "stonewalling." We've been dealing with some very difficult issues. There's no doubt at all that the negotiations have slowed us down in getting the material that we wanted. That's one of the reasons we asked for an extension. But we have almost all of the documents we have requested. There may be a few not yet in our possession. I don't know of any official witness that has not been available to us.
This hearing today and tomorrow is, so far as I know, rather unique in the history of Washington, with all of these big power players coming together in a matter of two days.
So, we've been slowed down. We've had conditions put on us sometimes that are a little too restrictive, but by and large we're going to have the information we need to do the job.
HEMMER: Back to Governor Kean, if I could. Richard Clarke has a book out. It has been the talk of Washington, from my understanding, from my position here in New York, suggesting that the White House botched the war on terror. At this point in your investigation, can you say whether or not that's the case?
KEAN: No, and we shouldn't at this point, because our investigation still has a number of months to run. We've taken over 15 hours of private testimony from Mr. Clarke. We've taken testimony from figures in this White House and the Clinton White House. We'll do more of that today. We're not in shape to make a judgment yet. I recognize what Mr. Clarke is saying. He's got a book out there, but it's too early for the commission to make a judgment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: That interview from earlier today.
This morning's 9/11 hearings start at 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time on Capitol Hill. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is scheduled to testify first, 9:30 a.m. Eastern. We'll have it live for you from D.C. then -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Senator John Kerry's combat experience in Vietnam has gained much attention in his bid for the White House, but it was his outspoken opposition to that war that drew the attention of President Nixon three decades ago.
National correspondent Kelly Wallace has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to keep coming back until this war ends.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As John Kerry stepped into the national spotlight in 1971, the Nixon administration's FBI stepped up its monitoring of Kerry and the group he helped direct, Vietnam Veterans Against the War, also known as VVAW.
GERALD NICOSIA, AUTHOR, "HOME TO WAR": Nixon and the FBI saw VVAW as a major, major threat to the United States.
WALLACE: Gerald Nicosia is author of the book, "Home to War," a history of the Vietnam veterans' movement.
NICOSIA: They really believed that these veterans were going to come to Washington with, you know, rifles and armaments storm -- and create a coup, you know, storm the White House, kill the president, take over the government.
WALLACE: But it wasn't until Nicosia recently reviewed 20,000 pages of FBI documents he obtained five years ago that the extent Kerry himself was followed by FBI agents became public. The documents note the mundane, like how many people Kerry talked to and what he said. Like here, calling for a political process to bring an end to the war.
Through a spokesman, the vacationing senator told CNN -- quote -- "It is almost surreal to learn the extent to which I was followed by the FBI."
White House tapes show President Nixon keeping tabs on Kerry. Here, he talks with his special counsel, Charles Colson.
CHARLES COLSON, FMR. WHITE HOUSE SPECIAL COUNSEL: He was in Vietnam a total of four months. He's politically ambitious and just looking for an issue. He came back a hawk and became a dove when he saw the political opportunities.
RICHAD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sure. Well, anyway, keep the faith.
COLSON: We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President.
WALLACE: The documents also do something else. They place John Kerry at a November 1971 convention in Kansas City, Missouri, where three Vietnam veterans tell CNN there was discussion at some point of an idea to kill U.S. leaders who supported the war. Nicosia says veterans told him the idea was viewed as ludicrous.
NICOSIA: Screaming, throwing chairs in the air. this is mad, this is crazy. What do you think, we're going to be assassinating people?
WALLACE: There is no confirmation that Kerry heard any of that. He says he has no memory of attending the Kansas City gathering.
(on camera): The FBI never linked Kerry to any violent activity and ended its surveillance in May, 1972. But the question now is: Could the Vietnam era past that Kerry is touting on the campaign trail also end up causing him some harm?
Kelly Wallace, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: During testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971, Senator Kerry blamed President Nixon for prolonging the war in Vietnam -- Bill
HEMMER: On a lighter note this morning, his campaign is flagging, but Dennis Kucinich is still out there. Last night on David Letterman, the top 10 ways Dennis Kucinich could still be the next president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, "LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": No. 4.
DAVID KUCINICH (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just wait until I unleash my new campaign slogan, "Kucizzle in the hizzle."
LETTERMAN: What does that mean? Does that mean anything?
KUCINICH: I don't think it does.
LETTERMAN: No. 3.
KUCINICH: According to the order of presidential succession, if George W. Bush were to resign today, along with Dick Cheney and about 300 other people, the presidency passes to a congressman from Ohio.
LETTERMAN: Well, I had no idea. I did not know that. No. 2.
KUCINICH: Get the governors of every state to rig the election.
LETTERMAN: There you go. And the No. 1 way Dennis Kucinich can still be the next president of the United States.
KUCINICH: I'm praying for a sex scandal.
LETTERMAN: There you go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Kucinich with Letterman. Some ideas to chew on that.
HEMMER: He's really loosened up. I mean, the first time he was on, he was doing the top 10 list. He was very stiff. And now he's like, he could be filling in, you know.
HEMMER: Who's been on there? Dean and Gephardt and John Edwards? They've all gotten their crack at it.
O'BRIEN: Sharpton, of course.
HEMMER: Yes, Sharpton, that's right, yes.
O'BRIEN: Is that right? Yes, he has. HEMMER: All good, funny stuff.
O'BRIEN: Yes, all right. That's funny. That cracked me up.
Still to come this morning, former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke isn't backing down from his claims that the White House ignored the threat of terror. We're going to hear what a Republican congressman thinks about that uproar just ahead.
HEMMER: Also, if jurors in the trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams get a tour of his mansion, how will that affect the testimony and the evidence in the trial? Ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: The defense in the trial of former NBA star Jayson Williams wants jurors to visit his New Jersey estate. Williams' lawyer say jurors need to see the shooting scene to understand why a limo driver's death was an accident, not manslaughter. The judge may rule on the request today.
Joining us to talk about it is criminal defense attorney Brian Neary. He represented Jayson Williams on a gun charge 10 years ago.
Nice to see you again as always. Thanks.
BRIAN NEARY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Why exactly would the defense want all of the jurors to pack up, go out to Jersey and basically tour the estate where the shooting happened?
NEARY: I think they want to add a third dimension to the scene itself, to allow the jurors to see what the real space distances are, to see what the angles are, how people could see. Remember, there are a lot of eyewitnesses who have testified to a number of different things. The defense, I think, believes that they want to show the jurors that some of the witnesses couldn't see what they say that they saw.
O'BRIEN: The prosecution doesn't want it to happen. In fact, they want everybody to rely on these photographs that we've seen already from the scene. Why not just go by photographs?
NEARY: Well, that dimension of real space may become important. The prosecutor doesn't want them to go, I think, for the reasons: (a), that they've seen all of it. They've got pictures and they've got videos. Secondly, that it may not be the same scene. The prosecutor is saying, this is two years later. Is the scene going to be recreated? And the third is they think it may be prejudicial to their case. In essence, that the jurors get to see the Williams' house, to see that there are people who live there and may feel some measure of sympathy to the family as to what's really at stake here in the trial. O'BRIEN: So, you're saying when you recreate or have the jurors come through two years later, you could have pictures of the family. He's got a little child. You could sort of see the bedroom. And you think that might make -- or the prosecution fears that might make the jurors sympathetic?
NEARY: I think that that's one of the things they articulated. If they think back almost 10 years ago to the Simpson case, where the people -- where the jurors went to the Simpson house, and I think they either set up a Heisman trophy or there was some representation of who, in fact, he was beyond a criminal defendant. The argument might have had some effect. I don't think the prosecutor wants to add that element to the case at this point.
O'BRIEN: Couldn't it be prejudicial in the other way? Here, you see a guy who's got a ton of money. I mean, the estate, even just from the aerial shots, is a sprawling, massive mansion. Aren't there concerns that the jurors would be -- would say, wow, this is a person who I don't identify with at all? I mean, he's got, you know, goo (ph) gobs of money.
NEARY: It very well could be. And there was an issue very early in the case that the pictures taken by the police illustrated some of the opulent -- some of the size and the wealth of the house, as well as the sporting -- the sports connection. And, in that, that that was an effort to either overlook the scene or to prejudice the jury against Mr. Williams.
O'BRIEN: How does it work exactly? They put all of the jurors in a shuttle bus, drag them out there. Do they get to ask questions at the scene? How does it work?
NEARY: It's like a judicial day trip. There's no interaction between the jurors, between the judge, between the lawyers. The jurors are usually brought under guard by sheriffs. They're taken to the scene. Usually, it's orchestrated where, in fact, they will go. They'll be led on a particular route through wherever the location is, only the relevant parts. Nobody talks to them, and they don't talk among themselves as to what this is, what that is, what the measurements, point out anything. That's all saved for the time that they actually start to deliberate.
O'BRIEN: Interesting. Do you think the judge is going to agree to it?
NEARY: I think so. He's been open before. And I think it adds a dimension to the case, in a case that everyone has taken great care in terms of evidence and in terms of presentation. I think he might let them do it.
O'BRIEN: All right, Brian Neary, we will see if you're right. Thanks, as always.
NEARY: Thanks, Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Nice to see you -- Bill. HEMMER: Singer Bobby Brown is out of a jail in Georgia this morning, three days early. Officials back in the state of Virginia are demanding he go to a emergency family court hearing tomorrow in their state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY BROWN, SINGER: I love you. This is the last time you will see me coming out of here or going in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Yes, Brown is married to music diva Whitney Houston. He was serving 60 days for violating probation on a drunken driving charges. He was set to get out on Thursday of this week -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, how strong is the housing boom? We're going to find out if it's still a sellers' market as AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: All right. Home prices, an amazing track record. How long, though, can that boom last? All morning long we're looking at the housing market, what moves you might want to make now to get ready for it.
Gerri Willis back with us today -- Andy Serwer is out for the week -- "Minding Your Business."
Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Good to have you here.
GERRI WILLIS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: So the bubble.
WILLIS: Yes. You know that bubble?.
HEMMER: Is it strong or is it bursting?
WILLIS: It is not bursting, according to the experts, unless interest rates spike this year. You're going to continue to see housing prices going up. Look at these numbers that we have for you. We've got the national average up 7.4 percent this year. That's last year up 9 percent. Check these individual cities out. Los Angeles up 15 percent this year.
HEMMER: Wow!
WILLIS: The big problem there, there's just not enough inventory for people. Everybody's fighting over the same houses. You see the same story in New York. Keep in mind here that what happened over the last few years, you know, we had an amazing boom. Remember San Francisco prices going up 25 percent?
HEMMER: Oh, yes. Yes. WILLIS: They had one year where they were down 10 percent. That was 2001. And what has happened since then? They've made up all that ground.
HEMMER: Is that right?
WILLIS: And more.
HEMMER: And they're coming back.
WILLIS: That's right.
HEMMER: Places like Houston, Texas, talking about it, too. A lot of retail space open.
WILLIS: Right.
HEMMER: Commercial business downtown. If you're looking for to buy.
WILLIS: Right.
HEMMER: How do you know whether or not it's affordable to you? Or where do you start?
WILLIS: Well, the thing to think about here, condo sales have gone through the roof. And normally what we'd say is, hey, look at a condo, because they're typically cheaper than houses. Not so anymore. They're actually more expensive for the first time ever fourth quarter. Think about downsizing if you're trying to buy and having a hard time getting into the market, maybe fewer bedrooms, maybe not the exact neighborhood that you want.
And then to keep from getting into a bidding war, because that's typically what happens in this market, people are bidding prices up, up, up, make sure you're ready to go as soon as you go to that open house. You've got your pre-approvals from the bank in line. You've got your banker. You even have the home inspector ready to go so you can buy.
HEMMER: That's for those who are prepared, unlike people like me.
The markets...
WILLIS: You've got to get here.
HEMMER: I'm with you, Gerri. Tough day for the markets yesterday again. Triple digit losses for the Dow 30.
WILLIS: Yes, you bet.
HEMMER: The pressure is coming from where?
WILLIS: Well, you know, terrorism. Everybody is worried about terrorism. The economy is not creating the jobs people expected. Lots of worry about that. You can see the numbers here.
You know, I think what's going on here is that there's so much uncertainty continuing, especially with terrorism. We've seen the major indexes come down 5 percent from their highs at the beginning of the year. It's just not good news for the stock market, despite the underlying, earnings have been taken higher and higher and higher.
HEMMER: Pretty decent run, though, for the bulls lately.
WILLIS: You bet. Well, until now.
HEMMER: And they should go back to two weeks. Until now, exactly. Gerri, great to have you.
WILLIS: Thanks so much.
HEMMER: Next hour with more. OK -- Soledad.
WILLIS: That's right.
O'BRIEN: Jack is here with the question of the day. Hello.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: The house across the street for me, on the market for twice what it sold for three years ago.
HEMMER: Three years ago.
CAFFERTY: Three years ago. It doubled in three years.
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: Jack's neighborhood.
O'BRIEN: That's unbelievable.
CAFFERTY: Yes, but, I mean, it's just -- you know, it's indicative of what's happening to home prices.
The U.S. Supreme Court, or more correctly, the Supreme Court of the United States will decide what the phrase "under God" means. Starting tomorrow, they'll hear the case brought by a atheist in California who doesn't want his 9-year-old daughter exposed to the phrase "under God" when saying the Pledge of Allegiance. In June of 2002, a San Francisco appellate court ruled that reciting the Pledge in schools with "under God" in it is unconstitutional.
So, the question is: Should it be in there or not, the words, "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?
Eric in Medina, Ohio, is a Christian pastor and lawyer. "I would prefer the words 'under God' be removed from the Pledge. The reason is simple. Under American law those words can only remain if the court determines them to be de minimus. That means a trivial matter. If they are more than trivial, their presence is a violation of the First Amendment."
Jim writes: "Why is it a child can't pray in school but can when he or she is in prison?"
Luther writes: "I don't think the phrase, 'under God,' should be in the Pledge. It was born from McCarthyism fear. It should have been retired with him."
Tom writes: "Somewhere along the way, the federal courts and Supreme Court have misinterpreted the U.S. Constitution. How could 50 states be wrong?" He points out that the preambles to virtually all of the state constitutions in this country make a referenced to God.
And Weldon writes from Newmarket, Ontario: "It does have a better ring than 'under Bush,' doesn't it?"
That's all I have at this time.
O'BRIEN: That was very funny.
CAFFERTY: This concludes my portion of the program.
O'BRIEN: Well, thank you very much, until next time.
CAFFERTY: Until next time...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: We're calling your neighbor, by the way.
CAFFERTY: It's my time. It's your time.
O'BRIEN: Yes, you know, we were thinking about that, and actually I think they doubled it...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: ... your neighbor.
CAFFERTY: What's that?
HEMMER: They sold their house for double the money.
O'BRIEN: Because you're next door.
CAFFERTY: They haven't sold it yet. I said it's on the market.
HEMMER: Oh, it's on -- all right.
O'BRIEN: Because you're next door.
CAFFERTY: It's -- it sold three years ago, and now it's being sold again.
HEMMER: I see.
CAFFERTY: These people bought it three years ago, and now they're trying to sell it. O'BRIEN: Yes, because, they say, and an added bonus, Jack Cafferty lives across the street. Their ergo is going to cost you $350,000 more.
CAFFERTY: I am so sorry I brought this up.
O'BRIEN: Come on, Jack.
CAFFERTY: If I didn't live across the street they could get three times the price.
O'BRIEN: That's funny.
Still to come this morning, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is among those in the hot seat today before a panel looking into the September 11 attacks. We're going to take you live to the Pentagon in just a moment. Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
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