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CNN Live Today

Kobe Bryant Case; 9/11 Investigation; Boy With Bomb; Big Infatuation

Aired March 25, 2004 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A man accused of killing nine of his family members faces arraignment today in Fresno, California. The proceeding for Marcus Wesson was postponed twice so that he could hire an attorney. Police say the victims that Wesson is accused of killing include children that he fathered with one or two of his own daughters.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair says that Libya could play an important role in the war on terror. He made the comments following a historic meeting today with leader Moammar Gadhafi. Blair says that Libya's decision to renounce terrorism and give up weapons of mass destruction sends a strong signal to the Arab world.

It is 11:00 a.m. on the East Coast, 8:00 a.m. on the West Coast. From CNN Center in Atlanta, good morning, once again, I'm Daryn KAGAN.

The Kobe Bryant case is 'Up First This Hour' on CNN. A day after Bryant's accuser testified about her sex life, her friends and alleged sex partners are in the courtroom today to tell even more.

CNN's Adrian Baschuk is in Eagle, Colorado, with the latest on that.

Adrian, good morning.

ADRIAN BASCHUK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Daryn.

The accuser walked in to court yesterday expecting two days of grueling testimony about her sexual past to take place on the stand. But the judge let her off early. Her day in court is over. And now, as we have seen, witnesses tied to the accuser have already walked into the courtroom. The proceedings have been going on for about an hour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASCHUK (voice-over): Kobe Bryant is back in a Colorado courtroom after playing last night for the Lakers in Los Angeles. Today, his accuser isn't due in court, but yesterday, Bryant sat behind closed doors, watching her testify for three-and-a-half hours. Court filings detail the defense was planning to target her credibility by their claims that she had sex with multiple partners in the days before and one day after allegedly being raped by Kobe Bryant. Trying to show that her injuries could have been caused by someone else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has been a little one-sided. The victim has been cascaded in the public both through pleadings and media.

BASCHUK: Legal experts say although taking the stand is an intrusive, difficult and emotional experience for an alleged victim to endure for a day, Kobe Bryant faces life in prison and his defense team must exercise his legal rights.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a right in America to confront your accuser.

BASCHUK: There is no escaping that Kobe Bryant is a superstar basketball player. Victim advocacy groups fear that his celebrity and high-powered defense team are testing Colorado's Rape Shield Law and the alleged victim's right to privacy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If there is evidence, then it certainly needs to be sought out, because Kobe Bryant deserve a fair trial. But we don't want it to turn into this fishing expedition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASCHUK: Now if there is time, the judge has agreed to hear two motions brought forth by the defense. The first, they want secretly taped statements made by Bryant to police just 24 hours after the alleged rape took place thrown out as trial evidence. Secondly, they want Kobe Bryant's T-shirt, that prosecutors say has the accuser's blood on it, also banned from trial as evidence to be used against him -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And what do they base the idea of throwing the T-shirt out -- Adrian?

BASCHUK: They say that Kobe Bryant was not under arrest at that point, so that they couldn't have served a search warrant while he was talking to police and gone into his room and confiscated that T-shirt. Interesting to watch play out.

KAGAN: Yes, and that's what you'll be doing from Eagle, Colorado. Adrian Baschuk, thank you for that.

Potential grand jurors in the Michael Jackson molestation case are reporting to the Santa Barbara County courthouse this morning. Nineteen men and women will be selected to hear the prosecution's case in secret and perhaps indict Jackson. The strategy keeps witnesses from testifying at a public preliminary hearing and there's no defense cross-examination before a grand jury. Jackson has pleaded not guilty to seven felony counts involving a 12-year-old boy.

The Senate may vote today on a bill that would make it a federal crime to injure a fetus. The law was introduced after the murder of Laci Peterson and her unborn son in California.

And speaking of California, you see Senator Dianne Feinstein at the podium there. Sponsors say they drafted the bill to exclude abortion. Critics, though, say the legislation could undermine abortion rights since it defines life as beginning at conception. The House has already approved the bill. President Bush says he will sign it.

The commission investigating the September 11 attacks has wrapped an intense two-day public hearing. It was highlighted by the accusations of a former counterterrorism adviser, but there was plenty of blame to go around.

Details now from our CNN national security correspondent David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could I ask you to raise your right hand?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before the 9/11 Commission, Richard Clarke reaffirmed and sharpened his attack on the Bush administration he once served for failing, he says, to do enough to protect the nation against al Qaeda terrorism in its first eight months in office.

CLARKE: And I thought if the administration doesn't believe its national coordinator for counterterrorism when he says there's an urgent problem, and if it's unprepared to act as though there's an urgent problem, then probably I should get another job.

ENSOR: Clarke said President Bush further damaged national security by going to war against Saddam Hussein.

CLARKE: By invading Iraq, the President of the United States has greatly undermined the war on terrorism.

ENSOR: But there was plenty of blame to go around. For the FBI.

CLARKE: I know how this is going to sound, but I have to say it. I didn't think the FBI would know whether or not there was anything going on in the United States by al Qaeda.

SAMUEL BERGER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Not only did we not know what we not -- what we didn't know -- but, the FBI didn't know what it did know.

ENSOR: And after hearing Clinton and Bush administration officials all say they just didn't have the actionable intelligence with which to successfully attack Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda before 9/11, the Commission peppered the intelligence director with questions.

LEE HAMILTON, VICE CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: Why were we unable to do it?

GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: We didn't steal the secret that told us what the plot was; we didn't recruit the -- we didn't recruit the right people, or technically collect the data, notwithstanding enormous effort to do so.

ENSOR: And if they could have found bin Laden, even killed him, would it have made any difference? TENET: Decapitating one person, even in -- even bin Laden in this context -- I do not believe would have stopped this plot.

ENSOR: The commission staff also blamed the CIA and the Clinton and Bush administrations for relying for too many years on proxies in Afghanistan for failing to field American spies or soldiers for covert actions against al Qaeda, possibly as a response to the attack on the USS Cole in 2000.

PHILIP ZELIKOW, 9/11 COMMISSION STAFF DIR.: CIA senior management relied on proxy forces to get lucky for over three years through both the late Clinton and early Bush administrations.

ENSOR (on camera): Commission members suggested there may be plenty of blame to go around. For present and former policy makers, it was a nerve-wracking day in the hearing room or close to a television set.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Let's take a closer look at the 9/11 investigation. The commission and the U.S. intelligence that into the center of that. For that, we turn to our guest, Robert Baer, a 21-year veteran of the CIA and the author of several books.

Robert, good morning, thanks for being with us.

ROBERT BAER, AUTHOR, "SEE NO EVIL": Good morning.

KAGAN: Want to go to some of the points that we have heard come out over the last couple of days. First of all, this confusion over whether the CIA understood it was able to kill Osama bin Laden. What was the feeling within the agency?

BAER: The problem is that there was written orders to kill him, but there was always a question inside the CIA -- and I myself have saw it, vis-a-vis, Saddam, getting rid of him -- whether you would be backed up by the White House. Fine, it was great to have this stuff on paper, but when it came to actually implementing, there wasn't backing from the White House.

KAGAN: Because some of the White House officials we heard testify, like Samuel Berger, were say where was the confusion? It was very clear that that would have been just fine.

BAER: Absolutely, he's putting a spin on this. Yes, the order...

KAGAN: A spin or perhaps the other thing that came out of these hearings that we heard over the last couple of days is a reflection of things that we've been hearing over the last couple of years, the communication between these different agencies and different departments of the government were far from perfect. BAER: They're terrible. I mean, but you know to get back to the point is that the White House, under Clinton and Bush, before September 11, were not ready to go to war with bin Laden. It was -- yes, George Tenet was absolutely right, we're going to -- we're going to wait for somebody to come in, walk through the door and say I can get rid of bin Laden, and if it's 100 percent foolproof, we'll do it. But those standards were very hard to meet. It's going to be a very messy war and we're only willing to fight it today after 9/11. We weren't before. And I think that's what was missed in the hearings.

KAGAN: Well we actually did hear that, don't you think, from Madeleine Albright and also from Donald Rumsfeld, that even for the hawks within either administration, that before 9/11 it would have been very difficult to get international and public support for the type of military operations that you're talking about?

BAER: Absolutely. And that's why we resorted to relying on surrogates and diplomacy, which just doesn't work in the war on terrorism.

KAGAN: George Tenet, I thought, had a very good point. He was talking about if you get away from the nit picking and the name game -- the blame game, the important thing is going forward. That the system has been broken, that you need to fix it going forward so that it doesn't happen again and so that people don't forget. Do you think that that is happening within the CIA and with relationships with other agencies?

BAER: Yes, it is happening, but it's occurring at a, you know, glacial speed. That's the problem. The FBI and the CIA have to find out ways to combine their databases on substantive intelligence and we're still not there as of today.

KAGAN: I don't know how much of these hearings you were able to listen to. Do you think this commission work and these hearings, any good will come out of them?

BAER: Well I think they will. I think the truth is coming out about 9/11. I testified at a hearing yesterday on Saudi Arabia and it's starting to come out in those hearings as well. It's gradual, but I think these -- all the books coming out and everything else and people testifying lets Americans understand what went wrong and how to fix it. And I think we're going to be more prepared, the politicians, to fix it, now that the truth is out.

KAGAN: Well, and the public will certainly is there a lot more than it was before 9/11.

Robert Baer, thank you for your time today.

BAER: Thank you.

KAGAN: Appreciate it.

The Bush administration strongly is denying the allegations by Richard Clarke that you heard at the commission hearings that it did not take the al Qaeda threat seriously enough. The administration is releasing an e-mail that Clarke sent expressing positive sentiments about the efforts to combat terrorism.

Clarke responded to that on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CLARKE, FMR. COUNTERTERRORISM CZAR: They're scrambling very hard at the White House. They've got a lot of people -- the vice president, the chief of staff, the national security director, the press secretary, the communication's director. They have got five or six people running around doing talk shows and trying to refute me, try to -- trying to besmirch me.

Look, Larry, I said in the preface to this book, I knew before I wrote this book that the White House would let loose the dogs to attack me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Well, and it has turned into a difficult attack on Richard Clarke. We'll have more on the White House counteroffensive a little bit later this hour.

It's also turned very personal between Clarke and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. We'll tell you what Ms. Rice is saying about Richard Clarke's allegations. That's just ahead.

Also, it's as frightening an image as you're likely to see, a young boy strapped with explosives ready to detonate. Was he about -- was he willing to become a martyr?

And later, NASCAR's Jeff Gordon joins us to talk about an important race he says he has to win.

CNN LIVE TODAY is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: CNN's LIVE TODAY continues in one moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: Israeli authorities are questioning a Palestinian boy today after stopping him at a West Bank checkpoint. The teen, believed to be only 14 years old, was wearing an explosives vest. Soldiers took cover and sent out a robot with scissors so the boy could cut the vest off. Afterwards, the Army blew up the vest. Now they say they want to know who sent the boy to be a suicide bomber. Well when he was stopped, the boy told Israeli troops he didn't want to blow up, he didn't want to die.

Dr. Iyad Sarraj is a psychiatrist in Gaza City. Doctor, thank you for being with us this morning.

DR. IYAD SARRAJ, PSYCHIATRIST: Pleasure.

KAGAN: What does this story and what do these images tell you about the state of Palestinian youth?

SARRAJ: Well, I think it's a sad and tragic story. And it tells me that the -- it's a phenomena that transpires from that phenomena, a dysfunctional family, a dysfunctional political situation, and an environment in which despair and helplessness become dominant in the -- in the minds and psyche of people and where revenge and anger, almost on the tribal level, are taking shape with the glorification of martyrdom and sacrifice. And which, of course, in this environment, children of that can be abused and used by some pathological elements or business trainers or perhaps spies for different agencies.

And I don't discount here the Palestinians or the Israelis from that, because Israel has used some collaborators in the past of young people could be used for this. I know that militant groups of credibility, like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, have always repeatedly said that they are not going to use children and they are against using children for these acts.

I think it is very sad, because this is a crime of double edge. At one hand, the child would have been killed, and the other, he would have killed some other people. And I think that this is an area in which the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli authorities should cooperate to find who is behind this and send them to court.

KAGAN: What does it say about a group that would take advantage of children like this?

SARRAJ: I think that any group, any individual who can take advantage of this is a criminal and should be sent to court. This is something that all the Palestinians condemn and they will not condone, for whatever reason. Using children for whatever reason in which -- in that way is obscene and it is something that should be punished. And I think all Palestinians share with me this, including the political factions.

KAGAN: But what about -- what does it say about the child? Now we refer to him as a child, but a 14-year-old is not going to do something that he doesn't want to do. There is a certain amount of free will there, even if there is manipulation involved. So what is happening in the minds of these Palestinian youth that they think this is an option for them, to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up and take other lives?

SARRAJ: It could have been that they -- this boy was persuaded with an atmosphere of violence and the calls for revenge and the aspiration to become a martyr and go to sky and enjoy whatever is promised there. It could be that he was persuaded, with a little mind, that his family would be supported, if it is a very poor family and in need. It could be in any form of abuse of this child. But I think the child has no concept of real danger. And when he faced it, then he realized that it is too dangerous and he stopped. And thankfully he stopped; otherwise, it would have seen a real disaster there.

KAGAN: You make a...

SARRAJ: Children have no concept of realness that others do.

KAGAN: You make a very good point there that when the Israeli soldiers did stop him, he realized what was about to happen and said I don't want to die. And as you point out, this one, at least, had a safer ending than possibly it could have played out.

Dr. Sarraj, thank you for your time, appreciate it.

SARRAJ: Thank you.

KAGAN: We're going to focus on politics here in the U.S. Coming up, an endorsement that some John Kerry supporters that could say has been a long time in coming. Howard Dean about to make that move. We're live from Washington, D.C. just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: At least in the Weather Department you got to stop your whining this morning. Orleon Sidney says there's not a lot to whine about out there.

(WEATHER REPORT)

KAGAN: Hey, Orleon, you know that summertime and bikini season just around the corner?

ORLEON SIDNEY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, well.

KAGAN: Yes, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? All right.

Well, it leads into our next story. A lot of people are ditching their heavy eating habits for some heavy duty diets. If you're one of those people making a big deal about a slimmer you, your wait may be over.

Our Jeanne Moos introduces us to My Pet Fat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If fat is what you want to lose, try gaining some.

(on camera): What does this look like to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like what's part of my stomach, fat.

MOOS: Here it comes.

(voice-over): It comes in three sizes. (on camera): This is five pounds, this is one pound and this is an ounce.

(voice-over): The idea is to gross you out so you think twice about what you put in your mouth. It looks just like the real thing, right down to the splotchy blood vessels.

(on camera): Well, this is called My Pet Fat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a cat?

MOOS: No, My Pet Fat.

(voice-over): My Pet Fat is the pet project of a guy who has quite a bit of his own.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There, I'm still working on this side.

MOOS: Jay Jacobs says he's lost 100 pounds since he came across plastic fat from a company that makes nutrition teaching aids, including a body fat vest. Now, Jay has trademarked and is selling My Pet Fat on his Web site.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will never look at a piece of food the same way.

MOOS: No, even while chewing the fat, I managed to chow down on some.

(on camera): But it is a very weird experience...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.

MOOS: ... to sit and look at this,...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is.

MOOS: ... and think this is going to turn into that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

MOOS (voice-over): Here at the Tick Tock Diner (ph)...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do I wear them?

MOOS: ... My Pet Fat got petted and handed around by a table of Italians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang it right on the refrigerator, right near the handle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn't want this if it was free.

MOOS: It isn't. It is 100 bucks for the five pounder, $15 for the one small enough to keep in your pocket as a reminder. Jay sometimes takes My Pet Fat grocery shopping. At least My Pet Fat doesn't insist on a trip down the pet food aisle.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, Clifton, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Pay for fat when you can get it for free on your own thighs, why?

He was once the man to beat, now he is putting his weight behind the Democratic front-runner. Howard Dean steps back into the political spotlight to make a major endorsement. Your complete political wrap up coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired March 25, 2004 - 11:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A man accused of killing nine of his family members faces arraignment today in Fresno, California. The proceeding for Marcus Wesson was postponed twice so that he could hire an attorney. Police say the victims that Wesson is accused of killing include children that he fathered with one or two of his own daughters.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair says that Libya could play an important role in the war on terror. He made the comments following a historic meeting today with leader Moammar Gadhafi. Blair says that Libya's decision to renounce terrorism and give up weapons of mass destruction sends a strong signal to the Arab world.

It is 11:00 a.m. on the East Coast, 8:00 a.m. on the West Coast. From CNN Center in Atlanta, good morning, once again, I'm Daryn KAGAN.

The Kobe Bryant case is 'Up First This Hour' on CNN. A day after Bryant's accuser testified about her sex life, her friends and alleged sex partners are in the courtroom today to tell even more.

CNN's Adrian Baschuk is in Eagle, Colorado, with the latest on that.

Adrian, good morning.

ADRIAN BASCHUK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Daryn.

The accuser walked in to court yesterday expecting two days of grueling testimony about her sexual past to take place on the stand. But the judge let her off early. Her day in court is over. And now, as we have seen, witnesses tied to the accuser have already walked into the courtroom. The proceedings have been going on for about an hour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASCHUK (voice-over): Kobe Bryant is back in a Colorado courtroom after playing last night for the Lakers in Los Angeles. Today, his accuser isn't due in court, but yesterday, Bryant sat behind closed doors, watching her testify for three-and-a-half hours. Court filings detail the defense was planning to target her credibility by their claims that she had sex with multiple partners in the days before and one day after allegedly being raped by Kobe Bryant. Trying to show that her injuries could have been caused by someone else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has been a little one-sided. The victim has been cascaded in the public both through pleadings and media.

BASCHUK: Legal experts say although taking the stand is an intrusive, difficult and emotional experience for an alleged victim to endure for a day, Kobe Bryant faces life in prison and his defense team must exercise his legal rights.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a right in America to confront your accuser.

BASCHUK: There is no escaping that Kobe Bryant is a superstar basketball player. Victim advocacy groups fear that his celebrity and high-powered defense team are testing Colorado's Rape Shield Law and the alleged victim's right to privacy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If there is evidence, then it certainly needs to be sought out, because Kobe Bryant deserve a fair trial. But we don't want it to turn into this fishing expedition.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASCHUK: Now if there is time, the judge has agreed to hear two motions brought forth by the defense. The first, they want secretly taped statements made by Bryant to police just 24 hours after the alleged rape took place thrown out as trial evidence. Secondly, they want Kobe Bryant's T-shirt, that prosecutors say has the accuser's blood on it, also banned from trial as evidence to be used against him -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And what do they base the idea of throwing the T-shirt out -- Adrian?

BASCHUK: They say that Kobe Bryant was not under arrest at that point, so that they couldn't have served a search warrant while he was talking to police and gone into his room and confiscated that T-shirt. Interesting to watch play out.

KAGAN: Yes, and that's what you'll be doing from Eagle, Colorado. Adrian Baschuk, thank you for that.

Potential grand jurors in the Michael Jackson molestation case are reporting to the Santa Barbara County courthouse this morning. Nineteen men and women will be selected to hear the prosecution's case in secret and perhaps indict Jackson. The strategy keeps witnesses from testifying at a public preliminary hearing and there's no defense cross-examination before a grand jury. Jackson has pleaded not guilty to seven felony counts involving a 12-year-old boy.

The Senate may vote today on a bill that would make it a federal crime to injure a fetus. The law was introduced after the murder of Laci Peterson and her unborn son in California.

And speaking of California, you see Senator Dianne Feinstein at the podium there. Sponsors say they drafted the bill to exclude abortion. Critics, though, say the legislation could undermine abortion rights since it defines life as beginning at conception. The House has already approved the bill. President Bush says he will sign it.

The commission investigating the September 11 attacks has wrapped an intense two-day public hearing. It was highlighted by the accusations of a former counterterrorism adviser, but there was plenty of blame to go around.

Details now from our CNN national security correspondent David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could I ask you to raise your right hand?

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Before the 9/11 Commission, Richard Clarke reaffirmed and sharpened his attack on the Bush administration he once served for failing, he says, to do enough to protect the nation against al Qaeda terrorism in its first eight months in office.

CLARKE: And I thought if the administration doesn't believe its national coordinator for counterterrorism when he says there's an urgent problem, and if it's unprepared to act as though there's an urgent problem, then probably I should get another job.

ENSOR: Clarke said President Bush further damaged national security by going to war against Saddam Hussein.

CLARKE: By invading Iraq, the President of the United States has greatly undermined the war on terrorism.

ENSOR: But there was plenty of blame to go around. For the FBI.

CLARKE: I know how this is going to sound, but I have to say it. I didn't think the FBI would know whether or not there was anything going on in the United States by al Qaeda.

SAMUEL BERGER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Not only did we not know what we not -- what we didn't know -- but, the FBI didn't know what it did know.

ENSOR: And after hearing Clinton and Bush administration officials all say they just didn't have the actionable intelligence with which to successfully attack Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda before 9/11, the Commission peppered the intelligence director with questions.

LEE HAMILTON, VICE CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: Why were we unable to do it?

GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: We didn't steal the secret that told us what the plot was; we didn't recruit the -- we didn't recruit the right people, or technically collect the data, notwithstanding enormous effort to do so.

ENSOR: And if they could have found bin Laden, even killed him, would it have made any difference? TENET: Decapitating one person, even in -- even bin Laden in this context -- I do not believe would have stopped this plot.

ENSOR: The commission staff also blamed the CIA and the Clinton and Bush administrations for relying for too many years on proxies in Afghanistan for failing to field American spies or soldiers for covert actions against al Qaeda, possibly as a response to the attack on the USS Cole in 2000.

PHILIP ZELIKOW, 9/11 COMMISSION STAFF DIR.: CIA senior management relied on proxy forces to get lucky for over three years through both the late Clinton and early Bush administrations.

ENSOR (on camera): Commission members suggested there may be plenty of blame to go around. For present and former policy makers, it was a nerve-wracking day in the hearing room or close to a television set.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Let's take a closer look at the 9/11 investigation. The commission and the U.S. intelligence that into the center of that. For that, we turn to our guest, Robert Baer, a 21-year veteran of the CIA and the author of several books.

Robert, good morning, thanks for being with us.

ROBERT BAER, AUTHOR, "SEE NO EVIL": Good morning.

KAGAN: Want to go to some of the points that we have heard come out over the last couple of days. First of all, this confusion over whether the CIA understood it was able to kill Osama bin Laden. What was the feeling within the agency?

BAER: The problem is that there was written orders to kill him, but there was always a question inside the CIA -- and I myself have saw it, vis-a-vis, Saddam, getting rid of him -- whether you would be backed up by the White House. Fine, it was great to have this stuff on paper, but when it came to actually implementing, there wasn't backing from the White House.

KAGAN: Because some of the White House officials we heard testify, like Samuel Berger, were say where was the confusion? It was very clear that that would have been just fine.

BAER: Absolutely, he's putting a spin on this. Yes, the order...

KAGAN: A spin or perhaps the other thing that came out of these hearings that we heard over the last couple of days is a reflection of things that we've been hearing over the last couple of years, the communication between these different agencies and different departments of the government were far from perfect. BAER: They're terrible. I mean, but you know to get back to the point is that the White House, under Clinton and Bush, before September 11, were not ready to go to war with bin Laden. It was -- yes, George Tenet was absolutely right, we're going to -- we're going to wait for somebody to come in, walk through the door and say I can get rid of bin Laden, and if it's 100 percent foolproof, we'll do it. But those standards were very hard to meet. It's going to be a very messy war and we're only willing to fight it today after 9/11. We weren't before. And I think that's what was missed in the hearings.

KAGAN: Well we actually did hear that, don't you think, from Madeleine Albright and also from Donald Rumsfeld, that even for the hawks within either administration, that before 9/11 it would have been very difficult to get international and public support for the type of military operations that you're talking about?

BAER: Absolutely. And that's why we resorted to relying on surrogates and diplomacy, which just doesn't work in the war on terrorism.

KAGAN: George Tenet, I thought, had a very good point. He was talking about if you get away from the nit picking and the name game -- the blame game, the important thing is going forward. That the system has been broken, that you need to fix it going forward so that it doesn't happen again and so that people don't forget. Do you think that that is happening within the CIA and with relationships with other agencies?

BAER: Yes, it is happening, but it's occurring at a, you know, glacial speed. That's the problem. The FBI and the CIA have to find out ways to combine their databases on substantive intelligence and we're still not there as of today.

KAGAN: I don't know how much of these hearings you were able to listen to. Do you think this commission work and these hearings, any good will come out of them?

BAER: Well I think they will. I think the truth is coming out about 9/11. I testified at a hearing yesterday on Saudi Arabia and it's starting to come out in those hearings as well. It's gradual, but I think these -- all the books coming out and everything else and people testifying lets Americans understand what went wrong and how to fix it. And I think we're going to be more prepared, the politicians, to fix it, now that the truth is out.

KAGAN: Well, and the public will certainly is there a lot more than it was before 9/11.

Robert Baer, thank you for your time today.

BAER: Thank you.

KAGAN: Appreciate it.

The Bush administration strongly is denying the allegations by Richard Clarke that you heard at the commission hearings that it did not take the al Qaeda threat seriously enough. The administration is releasing an e-mail that Clarke sent expressing positive sentiments about the efforts to combat terrorism.

Clarke responded to that on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CLARKE, FMR. COUNTERTERRORISM CZAR: They're scrambling very hard at the White House. They've got a lot of people -- the vice president, the chief of staff, the national security director, the press secretary, the communication's director. They have got five or six people running around doing talk shows and trying to refute me, try to -- trying to besmirch me.

Look, Larry, I said in the preface to this book, I knew before I wrote this book that the White House would let loose the dogs to attack me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Well, and it has turned into a difficult attack on Richard Clarke. We'll have more on the White House counteroffensive a little bit later this hour.

It's also turned very personal between Clarke and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. We'll tell you what Ms. Rice is saying about Richard Clarke's allegations. That's just ahead.

Also, it's as frightening an image as you're likely to see, a young boy strapped with explosives ready to detonate. Was he about -- was he willing to become a martyr?

And later, NASCAR's Jeff Gordon joins us to talk about an important race he says he has to win.

CNN LIVE TODAY is coming right back.

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(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: CNN's LIVE TODAY continues in one moment.

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KAGAN: Israeli authorities are questioning a Palestinian boy today after stopping him at a West Bank checkpoint. The teen, believed to be only 14 years old, was wearing an explosives vest. Soldiers took cover and sent out a robot with scissors so the boy could cut the vest off. Afterwards, the Army blew up the vest. Now they say they want to know who sent the boy to be a suicide bomber. Well when he was stopped, the boy told Israeli troops he didn't want to blow up, he didn't want to die.

Dr. Iyad Sarraj is a psychiatrist in Gaza City. Doctor, thank you for being with us this morning.

DR. IYAD SARRAJ, PSYCHIATRIST: Pleasure.

KAGAN: What does this story and what do these images tell you about the state of Palestinian youth?

SARRAJ: Well, I think it's a sad and tragic story. And it tells me that the -- it's a phenomena that transpires from that phenomena, a dysfunctional family, a dysfunctional political situation, and an environment in which despair and helplessness become dominant in the -- in the minds and psyche of people and where revenge and anger, almost on the tribal level, are taking shape with the glorification of martyrdom and sacrifice. And which, of course, in this environment, children of that can be abused and used by some pathological elements or business trainers or perhaps spies for different agencies.

And I don't discount here the Palestinians or the Israelis from that, because Israel has used some collaborators in the past of young people could be used for this. I know that militant groups of credibility, like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, have always repeatedly said that they are not going to use children and they are against using children for these acts.

I think it is very sad, because this is a crime of double edge. At one hand, the child would have been killed, and the other, he would have killed some other people. And I think that this is an area in which the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli authorities should cooperate to find who is behind this and send them to court.

KAGAN: What does it say about a group that would take advantage of children like this?

SARRAJ: I think that any group, any individual who can take advantage of this is a criminal and should be sent to court. This is something that all the Palestinians condemn and they will not condone, for whatever reason. Using children for whatever reason in which -- in that way is obscene and it is something that should be punished. And I think all Palestinians share with me this, including the political factions.

KAGAN: But what about -- what does it say about the child? Now we refer to him as a child, but a 14-year-old is not going to do something that he doesn't want to do. There is a certain amount of free will there, even if there is manipulation involved. So what is happening in the minds of these Palestinian youth that they think this is an option for them, to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up and take other lives?

SARRAJ: It could have been that they -- this boy was persuaded with an atmosphere of violence and the calls for revenge and the aspiration to become a martyr and go to sky and enjoy whatever is promised there. It could be that he was persuaded, with a little mind, that his family would be supported, if it is a very poor family and in need. It could be in any form of abuse of this child. But I think the child has no concept of real danger. And when he faced it, then he realized that it is too dangerous and he stopped. And thankfully he stopped; otherwise, it would have seen a real disaster there.

KAGAN: You make a...

SARRAJ: Children have no concept of realness that others do.

KAGAN: You make a very good point there that when the Israeli soldiers did stop him, he realized what was about to happen and said I don't want to die. And as you point out, this one, at least, had a safer ending than possibly it could have played out.

Dr. Sarraj, thank you for your time, appreciate it.

SARRAJ: Thank you.

KAGAN: We're going to focus on politics here in the U.S. Coming up, an endorsement that some John Kerry supporters that could say has been a long time in coming. Howard Dean about to make that move. We're live from Washington, D.C. just ahead.

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KAGAN: At least in the Weather Department you got to stop your whining this morning. Orleon Sidney says there's not a lot to whine about out there.

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KAGAN: Hey, Orleon, you know that summertime and bikini season just around the corner?

ORLEON SIDNEY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, well.

KAGAN: Yes, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? All right.

Well, it leads into our next story. A lot of people are ditching their heavy eating habits for some heavy duty diets. If you're one of those people making a big deal about a slimmer you, your wait may be over.

Our Jeanne Moos introduces us to My Pet Fat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If fat is what you want to lose, try gaining some.

(on camera): What does this look like to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like what's part of my stomach, fat.

MOOS: Here it comes.

(voice-over): It comes in three sizes. (on camera): This is five pounds, this is one pound and this is an ounce.

(voice-over): The idea is to gross you out so you think twice about what you put in your mouth. It looks just like the real thing, right down to the splotchy blood vessels.

(on camera): Well, this is called My Pet Fat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a cat?

MOOS: No, My Pet Fat.

(voice-over): My Pet Fat is the pet project of a guy who has quite a bit of his own.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There, I'm still working on this side.

MOOS: Jay Jacobs says he's lost 100 pounds since he came across plastic fat from a company that makes nutrition teaching aids, including a body fat vest. Now, Jay has trademarked and is selling My Pet Fat on his Web site.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You will never look at a piece of food the same way.

MOOS: No, even while chewing the fat, I managed to chow down on some.

(on camera): But it is a very weird experience...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it is.

MOOS: ... to sit and look at this,...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is.

MOOS: ... and think this is going to turn into that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

MOOS (voice-over): Here at the Tick Tock Diner (ph)...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do I wear them?

MOOS: ... My Pet Fat got petted and handed around by a table of Italians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang it right on the refrigerator, right near the handle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn't want this if it was free.

MOOS: It isn't. It is 100 bucks for the five pounder, $15 for the one small enough to keep in your pocket as a reminder. Jay sometimes takes My Pet Fat grocery shopping. At least My Pet Fat doesn't insist on a trip down the pet food aisle.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, Clifton, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Pay for fat when you can get it for free on your own thighs, why?

He was once the man to beat, now he is putting his weight behind the Democratic front-runner. Howard Dean steps back into the political spotlight to make a major endorsement. Your complete political wrap up coming up next.

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