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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Interview With Senator John Kerry; Morale Problem For U.S. Military in Iraq? Interview With Bush-Cheney Campaign Spokesman Terry Holt
Aired March 26, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry offer voters dramatically different views of our economic future.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Economic isolationism will lead to economic stagnation.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No one should misunderstand me. I am not a protectionist.
DOBBS: Tonight, I'll talk with Senator Kerry about his plan to create 10 million jobs. I'll also talk with the Bush-Cheney national spokesman, Terry Holt.
Health care another top election issue. We'll have a special report tonight on the competing plan of the president and Senator Kerry.
U.S. Marines are on the offensive tonight in one of the most anti-American towns in Iraq and the U.S. Army in Iraq has a major morale problem. We'll have the special report.
And in "Heroes" tonight, the inspiring story of Army Reserve Sergeant Dana Kohfeld (ph).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, March 26. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Senator Kerry today put the economy and the battle against the outsourcing of American jobs at the center of his election campaign. Senator Kerry said he would create 10 million new jobs over a period of four years. The senator also said he would end tax incentives that encourage American firms to outsource American jobs overseas.
Kelly Wallace reports -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Republicans have been painting John Kerry for weeks as a taxer and a spender. So a big goal in unveiling this plan is to have voters look at him as a pro-business Democrat who is doing something to keep jobs in the United States. He went to Detroit, Michigan, the first of what aides say will be three major speeches on his economic plan over the next few weeks. And there, he proposed something that even Republican supports. And that's a 5 percent cut in the corporate tax rate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: Some may be surprised to hear a Democrat calling for lower corporate tax rates. The fact is, I don't care about the old debates. I care about getting the job done and creating jobs here in the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And Kerry is taking a carrot-and-stick approach.
In exchange for cutting corporate tax rates and providing credits to companies which make new hires here in the United States, he would eliminate the current tax break on overseas income. Currently, American companies can defer taxes on any income earned abroad until that is brought here to the United States.
Well, the setting for today's address was no coincidence, the battleground state of Michigan, a state that has lost 130,000 manufacturing jobs since President Bush took office, according to Michigan's governor. And this is an opportunity, Lou, for Democrats to exploit what they believe is President Bush's biggest vulnerability. They say it's the economy -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, thank you.
Later in the broadcast, I'll be talking with Senator Kerry about his plan to create 10 million new jobs and to protect American workers from overseas outsourcing.
President Bush made no mention of Senator Kerry when he delivered two speeches on the economy in New Mexico and Arizona today. The president said the economy is strong and getting stronger. The president also defended his trade policies, adding that what he calls economic isolationism will lead to economic stagnation.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and joins us tonight from Phoenix, Arizona -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, while Senator Kerry was out talking about his new plan he said would help create jobs here, the president spent the day here in the Southwest making the case that when you are talking about the economy, it's about a lot more than jobs and that he said there are other positive movements in the economy that have happened on his watch.
The theme today was homeownership. And he talked about the fact that 68 percent of Americans now own their own homes. That's the highest percentage really in history -- in the history of this country. But at a meeting here of the Carpenters Union, the union chief, before talking about homeownership, said that there was something else on his mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, Mr. President, over the next few months, you will hear from advisers and pundits. But speaking for the Carpenters Union, let me tell you, the most important issue for us is jobs. And...
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President...
BUSH: Yes, the most important issue for me is jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. That's right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, that was an off-message moment in what is normally a very well orchestrated, well organized kind of event. And it just goes to show perhaps how difficult it might be for the president to turn the corner away from jobs and talk about other issues in the economy that he wants to talk about.
Now, earlier in the day, the president was in the state of New Mexico and while, as you said, he didn't talk about Senator Kerry by name or his new plan, he did make what has become his standard not-so- subtle dig at Senator Kerry, saying that perhaps economic isolationism is not what is called for. He said that would call economic stagnation. And he said what really needs to happen is, made-in-the- USA labels need to be seen all over the world.
Now, as far as the president's campaign, they were certainly out in full force today trying to hit back at Senator Kerry on his new plan. They said that it would really not help with outsourcing. They said it would create an accounting nightmare for big corporations and not help small businesses. They are the ones, the Bush campaign says, who create the most jobs here -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much.
While the president may not have mentioned Senator Kerry today by name, I'll be joined later in the broadcast by the Bush-Cheney campaign national spokesman, Terry Holt, who I suspect will mention the senator by name.
Leading congressional Republicans today launched a new attack on former White House terrorism adviser Richard Clarke. Republicans say Clarke may have lied this week when he criticized the way President Bush handled the war on terror before the September 11 attacks. Those Republicans called for the release of classified testimony that Clarke gave to Congress in July of 2002.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: The Intelligence Committee is seeking to have Mr. Clarke's previous testimony declassified so as to permit an examination of Mr. Clarke's two differing accounts. Loyalty to any administration will be no defense if it is found that he has lied before Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The CIA today said the audiotape attributed to the second in command of al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is probably genuine. That audiotape called for the overthrow of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. The Pakistani government called the audiotape ridiculous and cowardly.
In Iraq today, U.S. Marines and insurgents fought a fierce battle in Fallujah, west of Baghdad. One Marine was killed. Several other Marines were wounded. At least five Iraqis were killed in the firefight, one of them a freelance cameraman working for ABC News.
Our Jim Clancy reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. Marines fought running gun battles in the streets as insurgents fired rocket- propelled grenades, small arms and mortars in the flash point town of Fallujah, west of Baghdad.
The sound of gunfire and explosions could be heard as the Marines made a rare entry into the city's center. Fallujah is a stronghold of supporters of the former ruler, Saddam Hussein, and residents are among the most vociferous opponents of the U.S. occupation.
Coming on a Friday, the gun battles prevented many residents from going to prayers as they scrambled for cover or remained shuttered in their homes. Doctors reported a number of Iraqis killed and dozens wounded, although it wasn't clear whether the casualties were caused by the insurgents or U.S. forces. One of those killed was a freelance cameraman who was working for ABC News.
The Marines mounted foot patrols in some areas, while others blocked the entrance to the city. It was only this week that the U.S. Marines took over control of Fallujah from the 82nd Airborne.
(on camera): Before their deployment, there had been talk of a kinder, gentler approach, but that may have been misinterpreted. Instead of breaking off after making contact with the Iraqi insurgents, the Marines launched house-to-house searches for gunmen and weapons.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tonight, a disturbing report on Army morale in Iraq. The majority of U.S. soldiers in Iraq say their morale is low, their battalion leadership is poor.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, back in July, alarmed by a surge in Army suicides and a spike in medical evacuations from Iraq, the U.S. Army dispatched a mental health assessment team to survey the soldiers.
They talked to 756 soldiers, 82 percent of them engaged in combat at the time, the first survey ever of combat troops while they are in a combat zone. And what they found back in August, September and October was that among the troops they talked to, the ones who said they had low or very low morale personally, 52 percent said their morale was low and 72 percent said they thought their unit had low morale.
And on the question of leadership -- and this is particularly the junior officers that were questioned -- 75 percent of those junior enlisted reported that their battalion-level command leadership was poor. They cited a lack of concern by their leaders and what they call garrison style policies and duties. That means being confined in a very confined garrison configuration, where they have got to do -- have very limited mobility.
Now, the Army points out the this survey, which is their own survey, was done back in the summer, when it was blazing hot, when the mission was very dangerous, when the living conditions and the infrastructure was poor. The soldiers didn't have access to mail and e-mail. Often, they didn't have telephones. The meals weren't very good. And the biggest problem they found was that that was the time when troops were being told that their deployments were going to be extended.
The Army says it has done a lot since then to improve the living conditions. And particularly, they say they have focused in on this question of predictability, so that soldiers know exactly how long they are going to be there, when they will get back and when they may have to go back. And they say they insist while they don't have any current data to back it up, they believe the morale is better now -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, the conclusions here, obviously, sparked, as you reported, by the large number of suicides, have those incidents abated?
MCINTYRE: They have, actually. The number of suicides so far this year, only one confirmed suicide. They run generally about two a month, which is lower than the civilian population. But in July and also n November, they spiked up a little bit. They haven't been able to find any common thread for those.
DOBBS: OK, thank you very much, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Still ahead, I'll be talking with Senator John Kerry about his plan to create 10 million new jobs and to stop American companies from outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.
The Bush-Cheney campaign says Senator Kerry's plan will lead to tax hikes. Bush-Cheney national spokesman Terry Holt is my guest.
And 40 million Americans have no medical insurance. We'll have a special report for you tonight on the competing health care proposals of the president and the senator.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Fifteen percent of all Americans are now living without health insurance. Double-digit increases in health care costs are putting the squeeze on middle class families who don't have insurance. And those rising costs have become a campaign issue in the race for the White House.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emory University professor Kenneth Thorpe has analyzed both John Kerry and President Bush's health care plans.
KENNETH THORPE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: This is going to be an area in the election where the differences in these policy proposals are probably the most distinct and stark.
SYLVESTER: Under the Kerry plan, the federal government would cover costs for patients with catastrophic illnesses whose bills top $50,000. It would extend Medicaid coverage to more low-income children, their parents, and single adults. And it would relieve some of the state's Medicaid burden; 27 million uninsured Americans would be covered, but it would cost nearly $900 billion over the next 10 years.
The Democratic candidate wants to roll back tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans, but that won't cover the entire cost of the plan.
JOHN GOODMAN, NATIONAL CENTER FOR POLICY ANALYSIS: The taxes here are going to be quite high. And, sure, many families will pay more in taxes to ensure other people than they pay for themselves.
SYLVESTER: President Bush's plan would cost less than $100 billion, but extends insurance to fewer than three million Americans. His plan provides tax incentives to individuals to purchase health insurance, limits malpractice awards, and supports small businesses banding together to negotiate for better rates under association health plans.
The president also wants to cap federal Medicaid spending, while giving states more flexibility in how the money is spent. RON POLLACK, FAMILIES USA: It means the safety net for which today 51 million people get some coverage through Medicaid is actually going to be cut back very substantially, and a lot of people who consider Medicaid their health lifeline are going to join the ranks of the uninsured.
SYLVESTER: Critic says that means the total number of uninsured in the United States could actually rise under President Bush's plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Both proposals draw on the failures from health care reform in the early '90s. The Clinton health care plan used the stick approach, lots of mandates on business owners and insurers. Contrast that with the Kerry and Bush plans, which offer lots of carrots, incentives for insurers to lower health care costs and for businesses to expand coverage -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you.
Still ahead, an unlikely battleground state in the 2004 election. We'll have that story for you.
And Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry joins us to discuss his ambitious plans for the economy.
And Bush-Cheney campaign spokesman Terry Holt joins us to tell us why the Kerry plan doesn't quite suit him.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush traveled throughout the Southwest today, making stops in Phoenix and Albuquerque. And if the 2000 presidential election is any guide, New Mexico will be one of the toughest battleground states this is coming November. President Bush knows it. This is his seventh visit to New Mexico since 2000.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Quick, which state had the closest vote in 2000? Wrong. The correct answer is New Mexico. Strange, but true.
CHRIS GARCIA, UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO: We're closer than Florida, but of course, Florida got all the attention.
SCHNEIDER: Al Gore carried New Mexico by 366 votes. By comparison, George W. Bush's 537-vote margin in Florida was a landslide.
New Mexico is not just a swing state, it's a bellwether state. Since joining the union in 1912, New Mexico has voted for the winner in 21 out of 23 presidential elections.
BRIAN SANDEROFF, NEW MEXICO POLLSTER: New Mexico is a battleground state, because of the fact that we're 40 percent Hispanic and we're 8 percent Native American.
SCHNEIDER: Taos and Santa Fe look like northern California: artists, environmentalists and counter culture voters, the base of New Mexico's thriving Green Party.
Ralph Nader took four percent of the New Mexico vote in 2000. That's why it was so close. And why Nader threatens the Democrats again this year.
For a small state, New Mexico is getting a lot of attention in 2004.
GARCIA: Both on English media and on Spanish language media. So yes, we're being, I'd say, almost saturated with ads this early in the campaign.
SCHNEIDER: So how does the 2004 race look in New Mexico? Close. George W. Bush and John Kerry get about equal favorability ratings.
Kerry has an important ally, the highly popular Democratic Governor Bill Richardson. Hispanic, former U.N. ambassador, a potential Kerry running mate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: New Mexico is the most Hispanic state in the country, but not Mexican-American or immigrant. Many New Mexico Hispanics trace their lineage back over 400 years to Spain -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Schneider.
We'll hear next from Senator John Kerry on his plans for the economy, how he proposes to stop exporting American jobs. Senator Kerry is our guest.
And the Bush-Cheney campaign says the Kerry plan won't do what the senator promises. Bush-Cheney campaign national spokesman Terry Holt will join us.
And the editors of the nation's leading business magazines join us to share their views on the two economic plans of the candidates in this week's "Newsmakers."
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A look now at tonight's news in brief.
Violent demonstrations in Taiwan today as the results of last week's presidential elections were officially certified. Hundreds of demonstrators stormed Taiwan's Central Election Commission building. The protesters supported the losing opposition and they are demanding a recount.
A fiery crash has closed down a portion of Interstate 95 in the state of Connecticut. And it may not reopen for weeks. Officials say it will take millions of dollars to repair a section of highway that was damaged when a tanker truck carrying 12,000 gallons of home heating oil struck a barrier and burst into flames. No one seriously injured.
A Navy F-18 fighter jet today crashed during takeoff at Raleigh- Durham Airport in North Carolina. Authorities say the pilot ejected in time to survive the crash, but there is no word tonight on they extent of his injuries.
And NASA this weekend will try to fly an aircraft at speeds of more than seven times the speed of sound, make that 5,000 miles an hour. The X-43-A jet, known as the X, will attempt to hit speeds of 5,000 miles an hour in a flight over the Pacific Ocean this Saturday.
Senator Kerry today unveiled an ambitious plan for the economy, a plan that aims to create 10 million new jobs in four years.
I asked Senator Kerry earlier if that's really an achievable goal considering the slow pace of job growth over the past six months.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KERRY: Yes, I am confident it is doable.
It's measured by what we did in the 1990s. It's also measured by what is achievable on an annual basis. It's about 208,000 jobs a month, which, if we were to get back to a sound fiscal policy, to the proper tax policies, to the enforcement of proper trade policies, to investments in science and technology, and begin to focus on how you create jobs, rather than lose them and encourage that loss, we can create 10 million jobs over those years.
It's less than we did previously under President Clinton. I know it's achievable.
DOBBS: The proposals that you put forward today to change the tax code, eliminating deferrals, effectively making it very difficult for multinationals to transfer profits, is that going to set off a war with corporate America?
KERRY: I don't believe so. I really don't believe so, because, No. 1, we have given a very generous repatriation of capital period of time, so that there is no punishment here. We're trying to encourage people to be able to bring it back in at a very low rate.
No. 2, we have acknowledged -- I do acknowledge that, obviously, we want American companies competing abroad and they are going to compete abroad. So we have provided an ability for companies to be able to be exempted within the country that they sell. If you are selling in China, if you are selling and you are based in China or if you are selling in India and you're based in India, that's permissible. What we don't want is people exporting jobs back to the United States or elsewhere and having the American taxpayer actually provide a choice to companies where they are subsidizing that company going abroad. We are making it unfair and putting our own companies in America at a competitive disadvantage. That's really what you have to look at here.
If a company in Michigan is actually encouraged to move to Malaysia and they are encouraged because the American taxpayer is subsidizing that move, all I'm trying to do is say, make it neutral. I know companies are going to go abroad. They have the right. It's a free marketplace. But the American taxpayer should not be asked to subsidize that move.
DOBBS: We have already heard this from some critics. They are saying that this won't change outsourcing of American jobs. How do you respond?
KERRY: I think they're -- I just think they are not acknowledging the reality of what is going on.
But it's not the only thing that I'm proposing, Lou. First of all, I want to make American jobs the priority. President Bush evidently thinks that that's not the priority, that outsourcing is OK. In fact, they have announced that, that it's a good for America.
I think that outsourcing will take place, because wage differentials are still going to exist and other incentives will exist. But what I don't want is the American taxpayer actually subsidizing and encouraging that choice to go abroad. And so we're trying to just create a neutrality, that, yes, somebody may choose to go abroad, but we're not going to ask the American taxpayer to actually give them an advantage for doing so.
That's the difference here. I'm all for these companies competing and I want America to be strong in the world. But I'll tell you what I want first. I want those jobs here at home. I want to create a competitive advantage here. And the other thing that I do, Lou, I provide a tax cut for corporate America, a 5 percent tax reduction for corporate America.
So, 99 percent of corporate America will get a tax cut. And we're going to keep it revenue-neutral, because that tax cut is paid for by the subsidy that's currently given to companies to go abroad. So, it's a twofer. It's a win-win for corporate America and for those who need jobs in America.
DOBBS: And to put that in some context, the amount of money that has not been repatriated that you would give incentives to bring back into this country, some $600 billion, a significant amount of money. There are, as you know, Senator, critics that your proposal would in fact, insentivize some multinationals to keep that money overseas.
KERRY: Well they are doing that anyway. That's actually what they are doing. The American taxpayer subsidizing it. So I mean if they want to stay overseas -- this actually will make American companies more competitive, Lou. This will make American companies more capable of being able to compete in the world. If you are in China, like many of our companies are, they will be able to sell the same way they are. They can still defer. They'll still have that privilege.
But if they are there, taking jobs away from America for export to other countries, particularly back to the United States, we're simply not going to ask the American taxpayer to subsidize that.
You tell me, do you believe that the American tax payer should actually give an advantage to the company that goes abroad? I think the answer is pretty simple. We ought to be fighting for American jobs here at home. And I'm going to be a president who fights for those jobs here at home. Now, we'll still going to be an international competitor. We're going to have a lot of multinational companies. And I want us to compete strongly in the world. I think this will make us stronger.
DOBBS: Senator Kerry, we thank you.
KERRY: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. What do you believe is the best measure of the strength of the economy? Home ownership, job creation, the economy itself, GDP, or the stock market? Please cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later here.
And now tonight's thought, "politics is the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen." Those are the words of Sir Winston Churchhill.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Jason from Los Angeles wrote in to say, "funny how Democrats and Republicans can raise millions of dollars for their campaigns but can't do a thing about our country's increasing deficit."
Lynn in Massachusetts, "exporting hundreds of thousands of jobs, plus importing hundreds of thousands of people equals a third world country."
Frank Regli of Feyetteville, New York, "balanced trade is the only practical method to prevent the economic destruction of the USA, as well as most of the countries of the world. Otherwise, we are in for financial ruin and economic collapse.
Ed Roche of Braken, Pennsylvania, "All too often, I hear corporate America say they must outsource to stay competitive. Everyone else is doing so they must do it. Unless across the board limits are placed on outsourcing, possibly by our government, I can see no end to this race to the bottom."
We love hearing from you, e-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com. Still ahead here, the Republicans call Senator Kerry's new economic plan a political gimmick. Bush-Cheney national spokesman Terry Holt joins us.
And in "Heroes" tonight, the story of an American reserve sergeant who is back home with her children now in Seattle after trying to rescue a fellow soldier in the middle of a fire fight in Iraq. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Bush-Cheney campaign blasted Senator Kerry's economic plan after the Senator delivered his speech today. The Republican saying the plan will mean tax cuts for middle income Americans and small businesses. Republicans also saying the plan will do nothing to stop the exporting of American jobs. I'm now joined by the Bush- Cheney national spokesman, Terry Holt. Should I put you down undecided on the Kerry plan?
TERRY HOLT, BUSH-CHENEY NATIONAL SPOKESMAN: I don't like it one bit of it. But thank you, Lou, for asking.
Where to start with it, really.
DOBBS: Let's start with 10 million jobs to be created over four years. An ambitious goal, but you heard the Senator, he is absolutely convinced that with these incentives it can be done.
HOLT: It's a bold prediction, but unfortunately, this bag of gimmicks, this little game with the tax code, the ink wasn't dry on it when his own campaign advisers and his own economic advisers said in the paper this morning that this wasn't likely to affect outsourcing one bit.
But it is mostly a political document and obviously I find it fascinating that the first thing out of the box on tax policy was a tax break for who John Kerry characterizes as the Benedict Arnold of the corporate world.
DOBBS: Well, I think actually what the spokesman said it wouldn't stop it altogether, not that it wouldn't help one bit. But the Benedict Arnold companies, I don't think that the Senator ever suggested they be executed or anything of that sort. Why do you see that as inconsistent trying to change the incentives to bring them from the dark side, if you will.
HOLT: Well, in fact, the repatriation holiday was part after bill that was on the Senate floor in May of last year and John Kerry voted no against that. So the one part of his bill that certain conservative economists said would help, in fact he's voted against.
So this, you know, I will tell you, to give a tax break to corporate America that's one thing. But he's leaving in place this huge tax increase that would be applied to people who make more than $200,000 a year. You know who that is, that's the sole proprietorship. That's the mom and pop who pay individual income tax. It's the guy that has a small business on the street corner in your city who still pays the big high taxes and John Kerry is going to pick your pocket when he gets elected in the first 100 days.
DOBBS: So, you take it as a bold statement by Senator Kerry to an outside intention directly to them going in then?
HOLT: I think that -- what he's tried to do is he's saying that he's going to pay for his new spending proposals with this one tax increase. Even his former fellow candidates have said those numbers don't add up. In fact, he has -- and you've heard this, the trillion dollar tax gap. This bill doesn't address the trillion dollar tax gap and, in fact, it really is just a catch-all set of gimmicks.
John Kerry was in Michigan today. Didn't mention the United Auto Workers and their opposition to a very key Kerry program that would hurt U.S. jobs here: increasing CAFE standards would make U.S. car and auto manufacturers at a competitive disadvantage in the world and we'd lose hundreds of thousands of jobs by that one policy alone.
He says he can promise certain job increases, but we're losing jobs all over the rest of the economy.
DOBBS: Just so I understand, Terry, in terms of the tax holiday, that is repatriating that $600 billion that in profits that U.S. multinationals are keeping offshore, you would be in support of that at least that part of the Kerry plan?
HOLT: Well, the Repatriation Holiday. And I can't say that word, excuse me.
DOBBS: Tax holiday.
HOLT: The tax holiday was part after Senate bill that was proposed by a Senator Ensign from Nevada, a Republican from Nevada back in May. John Kerry voted against it. That it is part of his proposal today, seems part of that, you know, the two faces of John Kerry.
But ultimately, this is a set of political statements made, you know, to sort of make up for what is a huge tax increase policy that he said he's going to have in the first 100 days of his administration.
DOBBS: Well, the Senator has been very straightforward about raising taxes. So I don't think there's probably a lot of surprise there. Today, President Bush said Senator Kerry did not mention, Senator -- President Bush did not today focus much beyond the homeownership, which has been -- which is a remarkable achievement under this administration, but the fact is job creation is still a major issue. Is there going to be a new enunciation of policy. A new initiative by the administration on this topic?
HOLT: Well, the president has talked about getting the economy growing by keeping taxes low. By keeping regulations low, like these cafe standards that would hurt auto workers so badly. We also have another key ingredient and that's the competitiveness of the American worker and our economy by breaking barriers down in new trade agreements we can sell our goods and services overseas. There's another thing happening in the economy. It's changing dramatically. Who doesn't know someone who now has a home based business or a subchapter S corporation? You know, if you employ less than 50 people in this country you don't show up in the statistics. We have to go back and look at that, because those are the kinds of businesses that are blossoming in this country at this point.
DOBBS: Terry Holt, national spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign. We thank you for being here.
HOLT: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. The question is, "what do you believe is the best measure of the strength of this economy? homeownership, job creation, the GDP or stock market." Please cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results coming up for you just a little later here.
When we continue, the politics of outsourcing and the politics of job creation, just two of the topics that the editors of the country's leading business magazines will be tackling tonight. We'll tell you about a new survey talking about outsourcing, a national backlash and corporate America's response. It will surprise you. I think. And heroes. It will definitely inspire you, the story of this young mother struggling to rebuild her life at home after a year of service and combat in Iraq. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks down slightly on Wall Street today. The Dow down nearly 6 points. The Nasdaq lost more than 7. The S&P down just over a point.
Another survey showing chief executive officers are more than happy to ship American jobs overseas but they might not be ready for the risk. Christine Romans is here with the story.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This survey says outsourcing is here to stay. 86 percent of firms shipping jobs overseas in the next year. That compares as only 32 percent in 2002.
DOBBS: Wait a minute. Everybody's been saying that this isn't a problem.
ROMANS: Everybody is doing it. They have to. Everyone is doing it. Lou, the report concludes outsourcing while, well established, is not without some troubling risks. Political backlash. Low employee morale here. Global instability and negative publicity. Managing that backlash has become a serious issue for executives in any company that's outsourcing today. The survey found executives are a little more realistic now about the cost savings. Two years ago they shipped the jobs overseas expecting 50 percent gains in efficiency on those positions, today the expectations are more like 10 or 20 percent.
DOBBS: If they are so concerned about these negatives and these so-called risks why are almost three times as many CEOs ready to outsource even more?
ROMANS: They keep saying, if my competition is doing it, I have to do it, too.
DOBBS: Outstanding. Christine, thanks.
In "Heroes" tonight, the story of Army Reserve Sergeant Dana Kohfeld, a single mother with two children. In Iraq she tried to save the life of a badly injured colleague under fire. Now she's home in Seattle rebuilding her life. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Piano practice, a sweet sound to the Army Reserve Sergeant Dana Kohfeld. She built bridges over the Euphrates during her year in Iraq. Now she is trying to build a bridge back into her sons' lives.
SGT. DANA KOHFELD, U.S. ARMY RESERVE: I think the biggest change was -- and hard to deal with is seeing how tall my kids are and how big they are and that was a big wake-up call to see how long we've been gone.
WIAN: During the year she was away, sons Damian (ph), 9, and Brandon (ph), 7, left their home in Portland and came to live here with their grandparents outside Seattle.
KOHFELD: I'm trying to figure out what they are doing in school, teachers, friends, just an abundance of change. It's overwhelming some days.
WIAN: Adjusting to the demands of being a full-time mom again, Kohfeld also struggles to leave memories of Iraq behind and a particular day last July when she tried unsuccessfully to save another soldier's life. He was badly injured in a truck roll-over, Kohfeld performed CPR under desperate conditions until medical help could arrive until it was too late.
KOHFELD: It is very difficult to lose somebody especially when you work so hard so I think that's very difficult for me to deal with. And letting go and making sure I did everything that I could, but -- I don't personally take credit for being a hero. I think everybody who responded is a hero in my eyes.
WIAN: Kohfeld has been in the Reserves for 14 years, and says she will stay on for at least another six but she doesn't want to go back to Iraq. After year of service to her country she says it's time to get back to the job of being a mom. Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We'll be back with the editors of the leading business magazines in this country to assess the Bush and Kerry views on the economic future of this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: The results now of our poll tonight. 2 percent of you say home ownership is the best measure of our strength of economy. 92 percent say job creation. 6 percent GDP, 1 percent the stock market.
Joins me now the editors of three leading magazines in this country, Rik Kirkland, he's managing editor of "Fortune," Paul Maidment, he's executive editor of "Forbes" and Mark Morrison, managing editor of "Businessweek."
Let's start with the Kerry plan. Pretty bold, 10 million jobs over 4 years.
RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": It's easy to say, hard to do. I don't put a lot of stock in his 10 million job prediction. I do think the tax proposal he put out today was very smart politics, though. I don't know if it's great tax policy. I don't know if it will make a huge difference to outsourcing, but he positioned himself very well.
It's an important issue. He's doing something about it. It's hard to object to taking away a tax break to send jobs overseas and he gave company as tax break so he's pro business. A pretty good position.
DOBBS: Paul.
PAUL MAIDMENT, "FORBES": Exactly, I think it's very smart politics. But actually completely neutral or nonexistant economics. I think if the economy is going to create 10 million jobs over the next four years, they probably won't be created by a proposal like this. They will be created by just the recovering growth.
MARK MORRISON, "BUSINESSWEEK": It's a big political win for him, one, he started the shift to the middle that we all expected and predicted. After the primaries, where he was very much over there with some of the Dean positions. This establishes some middle ground.
And it also, I think gives him an issue for the Democrats that sounds like economic growth and will have some traction. It's not like talking about reducing the deficit or sending checks out to the states, which were some of the proposals that the Democrats lost with in the election two years ago, the midterm elections.
DOBBS: So what I hear you gentlemen saying is you see it as a home run for the first step out on the economy with a formal plan.
MAIDMENT: I think so.
DOBBS: And on the subject of outsourcing, it's remarkable because he said he's not a protectionist, he's not a protectionist but a competitor and it appears then that he's pulled that off.
KIRKLAND: Right. The question that we sort of dodged here. We frame this as politics. I don't know how much this will do to make a difference. You had that survey earlier. Companies are continuing to do this. Taxes are probably on a list of things that motivate them, 4, 5, 6, in terms of why they make these decisions. But that's it, why not do something that will help.
DOBBS: Exactly. That's the question I've got for you, Paul. This administration is stubbornly sticking to its guns. There's no new initiative on job creation. There is -- there's been a fact a of withdrawal. Why isn't this administration simply saying look it hasn't worked -- John Kerry referenced FDR, we'll experiment, we'll come up with a new idea.
MAIDMENT: I would disagree with you it that it hasn't worked, or would say it hasn't worked. And I think it feels that...
DOBBS: It has worked?
MAIDMENT: That's what he would say.
DOBBS: Let's not worry about him, let's you and me talk.
MAIDMENT: But what's it's taken out from the beginning, you cut individual's tax burdens and that will create jobs. That's always been a tentative link. The notion that more money in an individual's pocket they will be buying more, that will go to more demand and that will then go to jobs. I think that having the Bush administration having cast themselves in that line, it's very hard for them to move off it.
DOBBS: But why in the world couldn't they just say, obviously we're not creating enough jobs, let's try something else?
(CROSSTALK)
MORRISON: They put their bets on stimulation in the economy. There is a lot of it. Chances are, you know, I think they are very confident the jobs are going to happen. And I think chances are they will happen between, now -- yes.
DOBBS: Between now and...
MORRISON: Between now and the final part of the election.
DOBBS: How many jobs?
KIRKLAND: I want to Mark get credit for these job, he's creating them with his plan.
DOBBS: You know, Rik isn't leaping to join you.
MORRISON: I'm not going to give you numbers, but I think enough to make voters feel like...
DOBBS: Gregory Mankiw said 2.6. They stepped back from that. I'm trying to get the mark close enough.
MORRISON: All you need to do is get the needle moving to the positive side and that's going to happen.
DOBBS: Do you agree? MAIDMENT: The reason there's been such tepid job creation is because the economy has been growing very slowly over the last couple of years.
DOBBS: Growing slowly? My god, 8 percent in the third quarter.
MAIDMENT: It is now starting to pick up. You are now going to see a six-month lag between the economy picking up and jobs starting to appear. That's why you are going to see jobs picking up in the second half of the year.
DOBBS: You heard the president today when the carpenter's union representative on that stage said much to everyone's astonishment, obviously, our No. 1 concern despite what everybody may say to you, Mr. President, is jobs. The president was quick to say it was his No. 1 concern as well.
MAIDMENT: Did he say it was his job he was most concerned with?
MORRISON: I'm sure it is his No. 1 political concern right now. It would probably be true.
DOBBS: Well let's turn to the issue of insourcing, outsourcing and this debate. We now near from people like Newt Gingrich, world famous economist and once critic of this administration saying there are more foreign companies putting jobs in the United States than the United States is putting overseas. Do you gentlemen find that an amazing kind of distortion and deceptive piece of reasoning?
KIRKLAND: Let me put it forward to you...
No.
DOBBS: I want to tell you why I do. We ran the numbers. First comparing apples and oranges. Outsourcing is taking American jobs and sending them to cheap foreign labor markets so they can export back goods and services to this market. The insourcing that Newt Gingrich and other scholarly analysis have been providing us from their perspective is talking about access to $11 trillion American economy with plants here, jobs here, to get access to.
KIRKLAND: The same reason we have huge investments in Europe and other places.
DOBBS: And in point of fact, if you use that measure, we have far more jobs overseas than do foreign companies. It's 10 million to 6.3 million. Aren't you astonished at the kind of deception that's being put forward?
MAIDMENT: And yet you see, look at the example this week, IBM has just won an outsourcing contract in India, from Bharti Televentures, which will bring jobs out of India -- I'm sorry, IT jobs out of India and bring some of them back into the U.S. It's a two-way street, outsourcing.
MORRISON: And I think there's another side to that street. DOBBS: 2 way street? Come on. I mean, we've got an $8 billion trade deficit with India. 2 way street, my...
MAIDMENT: You want to cut a big trade deficit? Look at China...
DOBBS: Yes, I would like to, because we're going to go broke if we don't.
MAIDMENT: You want to cut the trade deficit to China? The first thing you want to do is cut the trade deficit in China, stop Wal-Mart exporting from China to America. It accounts for 12.5 percent of the American trade deficit.
MORRISON: I think there's an important thing that we don't talk about, and that is, if we want capitalism to take root in some of these developing countries around the world, well by golly, shouldn't we have some of the high end jobs to go along with some of this -- the lower end jobs that they have now?
DOBBS: Wait a minute, you are talking like -- I though thought you were a capitalist. Now are talking like you are running a command centralized economy.
KIRKLAND: We want companies to decide where to go. And in the process, keeping the American economy competitive.
You made a very good point about Newt's thing. Outsourcing, though, is only a few hundred thousand jobs, we think. Don't we? Do have you a number on that?
DOBBS: We have a number, and I think the number, the best number I heard, is 600,000 to 900,000, the "Wall Street Journal" today said, I believe, it was 300,000 to 600,000.
KIRKLAND: What about for other countries, is it worse for other than other countries?
DOBBS: Absolutely.
KIRKLAND: We're the only ones doing this?
DOBBS: Well, we're not the only ones doing it. You asked which is worse, I answered worse, a relative term, which applies that it's more than 1.
MAIDMENT: But you see, there's some predictions from the Federal Reserve, and you can take that as you want to take it. They are looking at over the next 10 years, something like 3 million jobs being outsourced from America. You have to set that against their projections of 20 million new jobs total being created.
DOBBS: I'm not going to accept anybody's forecast, including the feds, on job creation. I would like to hear your views on it. We've got 3 years without job creation with any significance. Isn't it time that we all started looking very seriously at what in world is going on in this structural economy. We give presidents too much blame, too much credit when things are good and bad. But there's something going on here that our economists are not being intelligent about in their analysis to tell us what's going on.
MORRISON: But, if you also consider that in the same period, we've had huge productivity gains by American workers, that our industries have turned around very strongly at high profits. This is all very healthy.
KIRKLAND: One things that's going on...
MORRISON: That our economic policy is working.
KIRKLAND: One thing that's going on, is that labor costs, healthcare costs, all these costs of having employees are soaring and companies have been burned before by this recessions, they were lucky to create jobs. There's a problem, I agree, but it's not a simple, simple...
MAIDMENT: And the other big thing that's happening underneath all this, is that business, big business now, is multinational. Countries are still, by definition, national. So politicians look at this through a very local lens, and that's not how companies work.
Look at a company like GE...
DOBBS: Working men and women in this country happen to be American.
We have to leave it right there, gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 26, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry offer voters dramatically different views of our economic future.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Economic isolationism will lead to economic stagnation.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No one should misunderstand me. I am not a protectionist.
DOBBS: Tonight, I'll talk with Senator Kerry about his plan to create 10 million jobs. I'll also talk with the Bush-Cheney national spokesman, Terry Holt.
Health care another top election issue. We'll have a special report tonight on the competing plan of the president and Senator Kerry.
U.S. Marines are on the offensive tonight in one of the most anti-American towns in Iraq and the U.S. Army in Iraq has a major morale problem. We'll have the special report.
And in "Heroes" tonight, the inspiring story of Army Reserve Sergeant Dana Kohfeld (ph).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, March 26. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Senator Kerry today put the economy and the battle against the outsourcing of American jobs at the center of his election campaign. Senator Kerry said he would create 10 million new jobs over a period of four years. The senator also said he would end tax incentives that encourage American firms to outsource American jobs overseas.
Kelly Wallace reports -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Republicans have been painting John Kerry for weeks as a taxer and a spender. So a big goal in unveiling this plan is to have voters look at him as a pro-business Democrat who is doing something to keep jobs in the United States. He went to Detroit, Michigan, the first of what aides say will be three major speeches on his economic plan over the next few weeks. And there, he proposed something that even Republican supports. And that's a 5 percent cut in the corporate tax rate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: Some may be surprised to hear a Democrat calling for lower corporate tax rates. The fact is, I don't care about the old debates. I care about getting the job done and creating jobs here in the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And Kerry is taking a carrot-and-stick approach.
In exchange for cutting corporate tax rates and providing credits to companies which make new hires here in the United States, he would eliminate the current tax break on overseas income. Currently, American companies can defer taxes on any income earned abroad until that is brought here to the United States.
Well, the setting for today's address was no coincidence, the battleground state of Michigan, a state that has lost 130,000 manufacturing jobs since President Bush took office, according to Michigan's governor. And this is an opportunity, Lou, for Democrats to exploit what they believe is President Bush's biggest vulnerability. They say it's the economy -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, thank you.
Later in the broadcast, I'll be talking with Senator Kerry about his plan to create 10 million new jobs and to protect American workers from overseas outsourcing.
President Bush made no mention of Senator Kerry when he delivered two speeches on the economy in New Mexico and Arizona today. The president said the economy is strong and getting stronger. The president also defended his trade policies, adding that what he calls economic isolationism will lead to economic stagnation.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and joins us tonight from Phoenix, Arizona -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, while Senator Kerry was out talking about his new plan he said would help create jobs here, the president spent the day here in the Southwest making the case that when you are talking about the economy, it's about a lot more than jobs and that he said there are other positive movements in the economy that have happened on his watch.
The theme today was homeownership. And he talked about the fact that 68 percent of Americans now own their own homes. That's the highest percentage really in history -- in the history of this country. But at a meeting here of the Carpenters Union, the union chief, before talking about homeownership, said that there was something else on his mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, Mr. President, over the next few months, you will hear from advisers and pundits. But speaking for the Carpenters Union, let me tell you, the most important issue for us is jobs. And...
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President...
BUSH: Yes, the most important issue for me is jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. That's right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, that was an off-message moment in what is normally a very well orchestrated, well organized kind of event. And it just goes to show perhaps how difficult it might be for the president to turn the corner away from jobs and talk about other issues in the economy that he wants to talk about.
Now, earlier in the day, the president was in the state of New Mexico and while, as you said, he didn't talk about Senator Kerry by name or his new plan, he did make what has become his standard not-so- subtle dig at Senator Kerry, saying that perhaps economic isolationism is not what is called for. He said that would call economic stagnation. And he said what really needs to happen is, made-in-the- USA labels need to be seen all over the world.
Now, as far as the president's campaign, they were certainly out in full force today trying to hit back at Senator Kerry on his new plan. They said that it would really not help with outsourcing. They said it would create an accounting nightmare for big corporations and not help small businesses. They are the ones, the Bush campaign says, who create the most jobs here -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much.
While the president may not have mentioned Senator Kerry today by name, I'll be joined later in the broadcast by the Bush-Cheney campaign national spokesman, Terry Holt, who I suspect will mention the senator by name.
Leading congressional Republicans today launched a new attack on former White House terrorism adviser Richard Clarke. Republicans say Clarke may have lied this week when he criticized the way President Bush handled the war on terror before the September 11 attacks. Those Republicans called for the release of classified testimony that Clarke gave to Congress in July of 2002.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: The Intelligence Committee is seeking to have Mr. Clarke's previous testimony declassified so as to permit an examination of Mr. Clarke's two differing accounts. Loyalty to any administration will be no defense if it is found that he has lied before Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The CIA today said the audiotape attributed to the second in command of al Qaeda, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is probably genuine. That audiotape called for the overthrow of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. The Pakistani government called the audiotape ridiculous and cowardly.
In Iraq today, U.S. Marines and insurgents fought a fierce battle in Fallujah, west of Baghdad. One Marine was killed. Several other Marines were wounded. At least five Iraqis were killed in the firefight, one of them a freelance cameraman working for ABC News.
Our Jim Clancy reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. Marines fought running gun battles in the streets as insurgents fired rocket- propelled grenades, small arms and mortars in the flash point town of Fallujah, west of Baghdad.
The sound of gunfire and explosions could be heard as the Marines made a rare entry into the city's center. Fallujah is a stronghold of supporters of the former ruler, Saddam Hussein, and residents are among the most vociferous opponents of the U.S. occupation.
Coming on a Friday, the gun battles prevented many residents from going to prayers as they scrambled for cover or remained shuttered in their homes. Doctors reported a number of Iraqis killed and dozens wounded, although it wasn't clear whether the casualties were caused by the insurgents or U.S. forces. One of those killed was a freelance cameraman who was working for ABC News.
The Marines mounted foot patrols in some areas, while others blocked the entrance to the city. It was only this week that the U.S. Marines took over control of Fallujah from the 82nd Airborne.
(on camera): Before their deployment, there had been talk of a kinder, gentler approach, but that may have been misinterpreted. Instead of breaking off after making contact with the Iraqi insurgents, the Marines launched house-to-house searches for gunmen and weapons.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tonight, a disturbing report on Army morale in Iraq. The majority of U.S. soldiers in Iraq say their morale is low, their battalion leadership is poor.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, back in July, alarmed by a surge in Army suicides and a spike in medical evacuations from Iraq, the U.S. Army dispatched a mental health assessment team to survey the soldiers.
They talked to 756 soldiers, 82 percent of them engaged in combat at the time, the first survey ever of combat troops while they are in a combat zone. And what they found back in August, September and October was that among the troops they talked to, the ones who said they had low or very low morale personally, 52 percent said their morale was low and 72 percent said they thought their unit had low morale.
And on the question of leadership -- and this is particularly the junior officers that were questioned -- 75 percent of those junior enlisted reported that their battalion-level command leadership was poor. They cited a lack of concern by their leaders and what they call garrison style policies and duties. That means being confined in a very confined garrison configuration, where they have got to do -- have very limited mobility.
Now, the Army points out the this survey, which is their own survey, was done back in the summer, when it was blazing hot, when the mission was very dangerous, when the living conditions and the infrastructure was poor. The soldiers didn't have access to mail and e-mail. Often, they didn't have telephones. The meals weren't very good. And the biggest problem they found was that that was the time when troops were being told that their deployments were going to be extended.
The Army says it has done a lot since then to improve the living conditions. And particularly, they say they have focused in on this question of predictability, so that soldiers know exactly how long they are going to be there, when they will get back and when they may have to go back. And they say they insist while they don't have any current data to back it up, they believe the morale is better now -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, the conclusions here, obviously, sparked, as you reported, by the large number of suicides, have those incidents abated?
MCINTYRE: They have, actually. The number of suicides so far this year, only one confirmed suicide. They run generally about two a month, which is lower than the civilian population. But in July and also n November, they spiked up a little bit. They haven't been able to find any common thread for those.
DOBBS: OK, thank you very much, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Still ahead, I'll be talking with Senator John Kerry about his plan to create 10 million new jobs and to stop American companies from outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.
The Bush-Cheney campaign says Senator Kerry's plan will lead to tax hikes. Bush-Cheney national spokesman Terry Holt is my guest.
And 40 million Americans have no medical insurance. We'll have a special report for you tonight on the competing health care proposals of the president and the senator.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Fifteen percent of all Americans are now living without health insurance. Double-digit increases in health care costs are putting the squeeze on middle class families who don't have insurance. And those rising costs have become a campaign issue in the race for the White House.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emory University professor Kenneth Thorpe has analyzed both John Kerry and President Bush's health care plans.
KENNETH THORPE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: This is going to be an area in the election where the differences in these policy proposals are probably the most distinct and stark.
SYLVESTER: Under the Kerry plan, the federal government would cover costs for patients with catastrophic illnesses whose bills top $50,000. It would extend Medicaid coverage to more low-income children, their parents, and single adults. And it would relieve some of the state's Medicaid burden; 27 million uninsured Americans would be covered, but it would cost nearly $900 billion over the next 10 years.
The Democratic candidate wants to roll back tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans, but that won't cover the entire cost of the plan.
JOHN GOODMAN, NATIONAL CENTER FOR POLICY ANALYSIS: The taxes here are going to be quite high. And, sure, many families will pay more in taxes to ensure other people than they pay for themselves.
SYLVESTER: President Bush's plan would cost less than $100 billion, but extends insurance to fewer than three million Americans. His plan provides tax incentives to individuals to purchase health insurance, limits malpractice awards, and supports small businesses banding together to negotiate for better rates under association health plans.
The president also wants to cap federal Medicaid spending, while giving states more flexibility in how the money is spent. RON POLLACK, FAMILIES USA: It means the safety net for which today 51 million people get some coverage through Medicaid is actually going to be cut back very substantially, and a lot of people who consider Medicaid their health lifeline are going to join the ranks of the uninsured.
SYLVESTER: Critic says that means the total number of uninsured in the United States could actually rise under President Bush's plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Both proposals draw on the failures from health care reform in the early '90s. The Clinton health care plan used the stick approach, lots of mandates on business owners and insurers. Contrast that with the Kerry and Bush plans, which offer lots of carrots, incentives for insurers to lower health care costs and for businesses to expand coverage -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you.
Still ahead, an unlikely battleground state in the 2004 election. We'll have that story for you.
And Democratic presidential candidate Senator John Kerry joins us to discuss his ambitious plans for the economy.
And Bush-Cheney campaign spokesman Terry Holt joins us to tell us why the Kerry plan doesn't quite suit him.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush traveled throughout the Southwest today, making stops in Phoenix and Albuquerque. And if the 2000 presidential election is any guide, New Mexico will be one of the toughest battleground states this is coming November. President Bush knows it. This is his seventh visit to New Mexico since 2000.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Quick, which state had the closest vote in 2000? Wrong. The correct answer is New Mexico. Strange, but true.
CHRIS GARCIA, UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO: We're closer than Florida, but of course, Florida got all the attention.
SCHNEIDER: Al Gore carried New Mexico by 366 votes. By comparison, George W. Bush's 537-vote margin in Florida was a landslide.
New Mexico is not just a swing state, it's a bellwether state. Since joining the union in 1912, New Mexico has voted for the winner in 21 out of 23 presidential elections.
BRIAN SANDEROFF, NEW MEXICO POLLSTER: New Mexico is a battleground state, because of the fact that we're 40 percent Hispanic and we're 8 percent Native American.
SCHNEIDER: Taos and Santa Fe look like northern California: artists, environmentalists and counter culture voters, the base of New Mexico's thriving Green Party.
Ralph Nader took four percent of the New Mexico vote in 2000. That's why it was so close. And why Nader threatens the Democrats again this year.
For a small state, New Mexico is getting a lot of attention in 2004.
GARCIA: Both on English media and on Spanish language media. So yes, we're being, I'd say, almost saturated with ads this early in the campaign.
SCHNEIDER: So how does the 2004 race look in New Mexico? Close. George W. Bush and John Kerry get about equal favorability ratings.
Kerry has an important ally, the highly popular Democratic Governor Bill Richardson. Hispanic, former U.N. ambassador, a potential Kerry running mate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: New Mexico is the most Hispanic state in the country, but not Mexican-American or immigrant. Many New Mexico Hispanics trace their lineage back over 400 years to Spain -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Schneider.
We'll hear next from Senator John Kerry on his plans for the economy, how he proposes to stop exporting American jobs. Senator Kerry is our guest.
And the Bush-Cheney campaign says the Kerry plan won't do what the senator promises. Bush-Cheney campaign national spokesman Terry Holt will join us.
And the editors of the nation's leading business magazines join us to share their views on the two economic plans of the candidates in this week's "Newsmakers."
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A look now at tonight's news in brief.
Violent demonstrations in Taiwan today as the results of last week's presidential elections were officially certified. Hundreds of demonstrators stormed Taiwan's Central Election Commission building. The protesters supported the losing opposition and they are demanding a recount.
A fiery crash has closed down a portion of Interstate 95 in the state of Connecticut. And it may not reopen for weeks. Officials say it will take millions of dollars to repair a section of highway that was damaged when a tanker truck carrying 12,000 gallons of home heating oil struck a barrier and burst into flames. No one seriously injured.
A Navy F-18 fighter jet today crashed during takeoff at Raleigh- Durham Airport in North Carolina. Authorities say the pilot ejected in time to survive the crash, but there is no word tonight on they extent of his injuries.
And NASA this weekend will try to fly an aircraft at speeds of more than seven times the speed of sound, make that 5,000 miles an hour. The X-43-A jet, known as the X, will attempt to hit speeds of 5,000 miles an hour in a flight over the Pacific Ocean this Saturday.
Senator Kerry today unveiled an ambitious plan for the economy, a plan that aims to create 10 million new jobs in four years.
I asked Senator Kerry earlier if that's really an achievable goal considering the slow pace of job growth over the past six months.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KERRY: Yes, I am confident it is doable.
It's measured by what we did in the 1990s. It's also measured by what is achievable on an annual basis. It's about 208,000 jobs a month, which, if we were to get back to a sound fiscal policy, to the proper tax policies, to the enforcement of proper trade policies, to investments in science and technology, and begin to focus on how you create jobs, rather than lose them and encourage that loss, we can create 10 million jobs over those years.
It's less than we did previously under President Clinton. I know it's achievable.
DOBBS: The proposals that you put forward today to change the tax code, eliminating deferrals, effectively making it very difficult for multinationals to transfer profits, is that going to set off a war with corporate America?
KERRY: I don't believe so. I really don't believe so, because, No. 1, we have given a very generous repatriation of capital period of time, so that there is no punishment here. We're trying to encourage people to be able to bring it back in at a very low rate.
No. 2, we have acknowledged -- I do acknowledge that, obviously, we want American companies competing abroad and they are going to compete abroad. So we have provided an ability for companies to be able to be exempted within the country that they sell. If you are selling in China, if you are selling and you are based in China or if you are selling in India and you're based in India, that's permissible. What we don't want is people exporting jobs back to the United States or elsewhere and having the American taxpayer actually provide a choice to companies where they are subsidizing that company going abroad. We are making it unfair and putting our own companies in America at a competitive disadvantage. That's really what you have to look at here.
If a company in Michigan is actually encouraged to move to Malaysia and they are encouraged because the American taxpayer is subsidizing that move, all I'm trying to do is say, make it neutral. I know companies are going to go abroad. They have the right. It's a free marketplace. But the American taxpayer should not be asked to subsidize that move.
DOBBS: We have already heard this from some critics. They are saying that this won't change outsourcing of American jobs. How do you respond?
KERRY: I think they're -- I just think they are not acknowledging the reality of what is going on.
But it's not the only thing that I'm proposing, Lou. First of all, I want to make American jobs the priority. President Bush evidently thinks that that's not the priority, that outsourcing is OK. In fact, they have announced that, that it's a good for America.
I think that outsourcing will take place, because wage differentials are still going to exist and other incentives will exist. But what I don't want is the American taxpayer actually subsidizing and encouraging that choice to go abroad. And so we're trying to just create a neutrality, that, yes, somebody may choose to go abroad, but we're not going to ask the American taxpayer to actually give them an advantage for doing so.
That's the difference here. I'm all for these companies competing and I want America to be strong in the world. But I'll tell you what I want first. I want those jobs here at home. I want to create a competitive advantage here. And the other thing that I do, Lou, I provide a tax cut for corporate America, a 5 percent tax reduction for corporate America.
So, 99 percent of corporate America will get a tax cut. And we're going to keep it revenue-neutral, because that tax cut is paid for by the subsidy that's currently given to companies to go abroad. So, it's a twofer. It's a win-win for corporate America and for those who need jobs in America.
DOBBS: And to put that in some context, the amount of money that has not been repatriated that you would give incentives to bring back into this country, some $600 billion, a significant amount of money. There are, as you know, Senator, critics that your proposal would in fact, insentivize some multinationals to keep that money overseas.
KERRY: Well they are doing that anyway. That's actually what they are doing. The American taxpayer subsidizing it. So I mean if they want to stay overseas -- this actually will make American companies more competitive, Lou. This will make American companies more capable of being able to compete in the world. If you are in China, like many of our companies are, they will be able to sell the same way they are. They can still defer. They'll still have that privilege.
But if they are there, taking jobs away from America for export to other countries, particularly back to the United States, we're simply not going to ask the American taxpayer to subsidize that.
You tell me, do you believe that the American tax payer should actually give an advantage to the company that goes abroad? I think the answer is pretty simple. We ought to be fighting for American jobs here at home. And I'm going to be a president who fights for those jobs here at home. Now, we'll still going to be an international competitor. We're going to have a lot of multinational companies. And I want us to compete strongly in the world. I think this will make us stronger.
DOBBS: Senator Kerry, we thank you.
KERRY: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. What do you believe is the best measure of the strength of the economy? Home ownership, job creation, the economy itself, GDP, or the stock market? Please cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later here.
And now tonight's thought, "politics is the ability to foretell what is going to happen tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. And to have the ability afterwards to explain why it didn't happen." Those are the words of Sir Winston Churchhill.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Jason from Los Angeles wrote in to say, "funny how Democrats and Republicans can raise millions of dollars for their campaigns but can't do a thing about our country's increasing deficit."
Lynn in Massachusetts, "exporting hundreds of thousands of jobs, plus importing hundreds of thousands of people equals a third world country."
Frank Regli of Feyetteville, New York, "balanced trade is the only practical method to prevent the economic destruction of the USA, as well as most of the countries of the world. Otherwise, we are in for financial ruin and economic collapse.
Ed Roche of Braken, Pennsylvania, "All too often, I hear corporate America say they must outsource to stay competitive. Everyone else is doing so they must do it. Unless across the board limits are placed on outsourcing, possibly by our government, I can see no end to this race to the bottom."
We love hearing from you, e-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com. Still ahead here, the Republicans call Senator Kerry's new economic plan a political gimmick. Bush-Cheney national spokesman Terry Holt joins us.
And in "Heroes" tonight, the story of an American reserve sergeant who is back home with her children now in Seattle after trying to rescue a fellow soldier in the middle of a fire fight in Iraq. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Bush-Cheney campaign blasted Senator Kerry's economic plan after the Senator delivered his speech today. The Republican saying the plan will mean tax cuts for middle income Americans and small businesses. Republicans also saying the plan will do nothing to stop the exporting of American jobs. I'm now joined by the Bush- Cheney national spokesman, Terry Holt. Should I put you down undecided on the Kerry plan?
TERRY HOLT, BUSH-CHENEY NATIONAL SPOKESMAN: I don't like it one bit of it. But thank you, Lou, for asking.
Where to start with it, really.
DOBBS: Let's start with 10 million jobs to be created over four years. An ambitious goal, but you heard the Senator, he is absolutely convinced that with these incentives it can be done.
HOLT: It's a bold prediction, but unfortunately, this bag of gimmicks, this little game with the tax code, the ink wasn't dry on it when his own campaign advisers and his own economic advisers said in the paper this morning that this wasn't likely to affect outsourcing one bit.
But it is mostly a political document and obviously I find it fascinating that the first thing out of the box on tax policy was a tax break for who John Kerry characterizes as the Benedict Arnold of the corporate world.
DOBBS: Well, I think actually what the spokesman said it wouldn't stop it altogether, not that it wouldn't help one bit. But the Benedict Arnold companies, I don't think that the Senator ever suggested they be executed or anything of that sort. Why do you see that as inconsistent trying to change the incentives to bring them from the dark side, if you will.
HOLT: Well, in fact, the repatriation holiday was part after bill that was on the Senate floor in May of last year and John Kerry voted no against that. So the one part of his bill that certain conservative economists said would help, in fact he's voted against.
So this, you know, I will tell you, to give a tax break to corporate America that's one thing. But he's leaving in place this huge tax increase that would be applied to people who make more than $200,000 a year. You know who that is, that's the sole proprietorship. That's the mom and pop who pay individual income tax. It's the guy that has a small business on the street corner in your city who still pays the big high taxes and John Kerry is going to pick your pocket when he gets elected in the first 100 days.
DOBBS: So, you take it as a bold statement by Senator Kerry to an outside intention directly to them going in then?
HOLT: I think that -- what he's tried to do is he's saying that he's going to pay for his new spending proposals with this one tax increase. Even his former fellow candidates have said those numbers don't add up. In fact, he has -- and you've heard this, the trillion dollar tax gap. This bill doesn't address the trillion dollar tax gap and, in fact, it really is just a catch-all set of gimmicks.
John Kerry was in Michigan today. Didn't mention the United Auto Workers and their opposition to a very key Kerry program that would hurt U.S. jobs here: increasing CAFE standards would make U.S. car and auto manufacturers at a competitive disadvantage in the world and we'd lose hundreds of thousands of jobs by that one policy alone.
He says he can promise certain job increases, but we're losing jobs all over the rest of the economy.
DOBBS: Just so I understand, Terry, in terms of the tax holiday, that is repatriating that $600 billion that in profits that U.S. multinationals are keeping offshore, you would be in support of that at least that part of the Kerry plan?
HOLT: Well, the Repatriation Holiday. And I can't say that word, excuse me.
DOBBS: Tax holiday.
HOLT: The tax holiday was part after Senate bill that was proposed by a Senator Ensign from Nevada, a Republican from Nevada back in May. John Kerry voted against it. That it is part of his proposal today, seems part of that, you know, the two faces of John Kerry.
But ultimately, this is a set of political statements made, you know, to sort of make up for what is a huge tax increase policy that he said he's going to have in the first 100 days of his administration.
DOBBS: Well, the Senator has been very straightforward about raising taxes. So I don't think there's probably a lot of surprise there. Today, President Bush said Senator Kerry did not mention, Senator -- President Bush did not today focus much beyond the homeownership, which has been -- which is a remarkable achievement under this administration, but the fact is job creation is still a major issue. Is there going to be a new enunciation of policy. A new initiative by the administration on this topic?
HOLT: Well, the president has talked about getting the economy growing by keeping taxes low. By keeping regulations low, like these cafe standards that would hurt auto workers so badly. We also have another key ingredient and that's the competitiveness of the American worker and our economy by breaking barriers down in new trade agreements we can sell our goods and services overseas. There's another thing happening in the economy. It's changing dramatically. Who doesn't know someone who now has a home based business or a subchapter S corporation? You know, if you employ less than 50 people in this country you don't show up in the statistics. We have to go back and look at that, because those are the kinds of businesses that are blossoming in this country at this point.
DOBBS: Terry Holt, national spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign. We thank you for being here.
HOLT: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. The question is, "what do you believe is the best measure of the strength of this economy? homeownership, job creation, the GDP or stock market." Please cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results coming up for you just a little later here.
When we continue, the politics of outsourcing and the politics of job creation, just two of the topics that the editors of the country's leading business magazines will be tackling tonight. We'll tell you about a new survey talking about outsourcing, a national backlash and corporate America's response. It will surprise you. I think. And heroes. It will definitely inspire you, the story of this young mother struggling to rebuild her life at home after a year of service and combat in Iraq. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks down slightly on Wall Street today. The Dow down nearly 6 points. The Nasdaq lost more than 7. The S&P down just over a point.
Another survey showing chief executive officers are more than happy to ship American jobs overseas but they might not be ready for the risk. Christine Romans is here with the story.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This survey says outsourcing is here to stay. 86 percent of firms shipping jobs overseas in the next year. That compares as only 32 percent in 2002.
DOBBS: Wait a minute. Everybody's been saying that this isn't a problem.
ROMANS: Everybody is doing it. They have to. Everyone is doing it. Lou, the report concludes outsourcing while, well established, is not without some troubling risks. Political backlash. Low employee morale here. Global instability and negative publicity. Managing that backlash has become a serious issue for executives in any company that's outsourcing today. The survey found executives are a little more realistic now about the cost savings. Two years ago they shipped the jobs overseas expecting 50 percent gains in efficiency on those positions, today the expectations are more like 10 or 20 percent.
DOBBS: If they are so concerned about these negatives and these so-called risks why are almost three times as many CEOs ready to outsource even more?
ROMANS: They keep saying, if my competition is doing it, I have to do it, too.
DOBBS: Outstanding. Christine, thanks.
In "Heroes" tonight, the story of Army Reserve Sergeant Dana Kohfeld, a single mother with two children. In Iraq she tried to save the life of a badly injured colleague under fire. Now she's home in Seattle rebuilding her life. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Piano practice, a sweet sound to the Army Reserve Sergeant Dana Kohfeld. She built bridges over the Euphrates during her year in Iraq. Now she is trying to build a bridge back into her sons' lives.
SGT. DANA KOHFELD, U.S. ARMY RESERVE: I think the biggest change was -- and hard to deal with is seeing how tall my kids are and how big they are and that was a big wake-up call to see how long we've been gone.
WIAN: During the year she was away, sons Damian (ph), 9, and Brandon (ph), 7, left their home in Portland and came to live here with their grandparents outside Seattle.
KOHFELD: I'm trying to figure out what they are doing in school, teachers, friends, just an abundance of change. It's overwhelming some days.
WIAN: Adjusting to the demands of being a full-time mom again, Kohfeld also struggles to leave memories of Iraq behind and a particular day last July when she tried unsuccessfully to save another soldier's life. He was badly injured in a truck roll-over, Kohfeld performed CPR under desperate conditions until medical help could arrive until it was too late.
KOHFELD: It is very difficult to lose somebody especially when you work so hard so I think that's very difficult for me to deal with. And letting go and making sure I did everything that I could, but -- I don't personally take credit for being a hero. I think everybody who responded is a hero in my eyes.
WIAN: Kohfeld has been in the Reserves for 14 years, and says she will stay on for at least another six but she doesn't want to go back to Iraq. After year of service to her country she says it's time to get back to the job of being a mom. Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We'll be back with the editors of the leading business magazines in this country to assess the Bush and Kerry views on the economic future of this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: The results now of our poll tonight. 2 percent of you say home ownership is the best measure of our strength of economy. 92 percent say job creation. 6 percent GDP, 1 percent the stock market.
Joins me now the editors of three leading magazines in this country, Rik Kirkland, he's managing editor of "Fortune," Paul Maidment, he's executive editor of "Forbes" and Mark Morrison, managing editor of "Businessweek."
Let's start with the Kerry plan. Pretty bold, 10 million jobs over 4 years.
RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": It's easy to say, hard to do. I don't put a lot of stock in his 10 million job prediction. I do think the tax proposal he put out today was very smart politics, though. I don't know if it's great tax policy. I don't know if it will make a huge difference to outsourcing, but he positioned himself very well.
It's an important issue. He's doing something about it. It's hard to object to taking away a tax break to send jobs overseas and he gave company as tax break so he's pro business. A pretty good position.
DOBBS: Paul.
PAUL MAIDMENT, "FORBES": Exactly, I think it's very smart politics. But actually completely neutral or nonexistant economics. I think if the economy is going to create 10 million jobs over the next four years, they probably won't be created by a proposal like this. They will be created by just the recovering growth.
MARK MORRISON, "BUSINESSWEEK": It's a big political win for him, one, he started the shift to the middle that we all expected and predicted. After the primaries, where he was very much over there with some of the Dean positions. This establishes some middle ground.
And it also, I think gives him an issue for the Democrats that sounds like economic growth and will have some traction. It's not like talking about reducing the deficit or sending checks out to the states, which were some of the proposals that the Democrats lost with in the election two years ago, the midterm elections.
DOBBS: So what I hear you gentlemen saying is you see it as a home run for the first step out on the economy with a formal plan.
MAIDMENT: I think so.
DOBBS: And on the subject of outsourcing, it's remarkable because he said he's not a protectionist, he's not a protectionist but a competitor and it appears then that he's pulled that off.
KIRKLAND: Right. The question that we sort of dodged here. We frame this as politics. I don't know how much this will do to make a difference. You had that survey earlier. Companies are continuing to do this. Taxes are probably on a list of things that motivate them, 4, 5, 6, in terms of why they make these decisions. But that's it, why not do something that will help.
DOBBS: Exactly. That's the question I've got for you, Paul. This administration is stubbornly sticking to its guns. There's no new initiative on job creation. There is -- there's been a fact a of withdrawal. Why isn't this administration simply saying look it hasn't worked -- John Kerry referenced FDR, we'll experiment, we'll come up with a new idea.
MAIDMENT: I would disagree with you it that it hasn't worked, or would say it hasn't worked. And I think it feels that...
DOBBS: It has worked?
MAIDMENT: That's what he would say.
DOBBS: Let's not worry about him, let's you and me talk.
MAIDMENT: But what's it's taken out from the beginning, you cut individual's tax burdens and that will create jobs. That's always been a tentative link. The notion that more money in an individual's pocket they will be buying more, that will go to more demand and that will then go to jobs. I think that having the Bush administration having cast themselves in that line, it's very hard for them to move off it.
DOBBS: But why in the world couldn't they just say, obviously we're not creating enough jobs, let's try something else?
(CROSSTALK)
MORRISON: They put their bets on stimulation in the economy. There is a lot of it. Chances are, you know, I think they are very confident the jobs are going to happen. And I think chances are they will happen between, now -- yes.
DOBBS: Between now and...
MORRISON: Between now and the final part of the election.
DOBBS: How many jobs?
KIRKLAND: I want to Mark get credit for these job, he's creating them with his plan.
DOBBS: You know, Rik isn't leaping to join you.
MORRISON: I'm not going to give you numbers, but I think enough to make voters feel like...
DOBBS: Gregory Mankiw said 2.6. They stepped back from that. I'm trying to get the mark close enough.
MORRISON: All you need to do is get the needle moving to the positive side and that's going to happen.
DOBBS: Do you agree? MAIDMENT: The reason there's been such tepid job creation is because the economy has been growing very slowly over the last couple of years.
DOBBS: Growing slowly? My god, 8 percent in the third quarter.
MAIDMENT: It is now starting to pick up. You are now going to see a six-month lag between the economy picking up and jobs starting to appear. That's why you are going to see jobs picking up in the second half of the year.
DOBBS: You heard the president today when the carpenter's union representative on that stage said much to everyone's astonishment, obviously, our No. 1 concern despite what everybody may say to you, Mr. President, is jobs. The president was quick to say it was his No. 1 concern as well.
MAIDMENT: Did he say it was his job he was most concerned with?
MORRISON: I'm sure it is his No. 1 political concern right now. It would probably be true.
DOBBS: Well let's turn to the issue of insourcing, outsourcing and this debate. We now near from people like Newt Gingrich, world famous economist and once critic of this administration saying there are more foreign companies putting jobs in the United States than the United States is putting overseas. Do you gentlemen find that an amazing kind of distortion and deceptive piece of reasoning?
KIRKLAND: Let me put it forward to you...
No.
DOBBS: I want to tell you why I do. We ran the numbers. First comparing apples and oranges. Outsourcing is taking American jobs and sending them to cheap foreign labor markets so they can export back goods and services to this market. The insourcing that Newt Gingrich and other scholarly analysis have been providing us from their perspective is talking about access to $11 trillion American economy with plants here, jobs here, to get access to.
KIRKLAND: The same reason we have huge investments in Europe and other places.
DOBBS: And in point of fact, if you use that measure, we have far more jobs overseas than do foreign companies. It's 10 million to 6.3 million. Aren't you astonished at the kind of deception that's being put forward?
MAIDMENT: And yet you see, look at the example this week, IBM has just won an outsourcing contract in India, from Bharti Televentures, which will bring jobs out of India -- I'm sorry, IT jobs out of India and bring some of them back into the U.S. It's a two-way street, outsourcing.
MORRISON: And I think there's another side to that street. DOBBS: 2 way street? Come on. I mean, we've got an $8 billion trade deficit with India. 2 way street, my...
MAIDMENT: You want to cut a big trade deficit? Look at China...
DOBBS: Yes, I would like to, because we're going to go broke if we don't.
MAIDMENT: You want to cut the trade deficit to China? The first thing you want to do is cut the trade deficit in China, stop Wal-Mart exporting from China to America. It accounts for 12.5 percent of the American trade deficit.
MORRISON: I think there's an important thing that we don't talk about, and that is, if we want capitalism to take root in some of these developing countries around the world, well by golly, shouldn't we have some of the high end jobs to go along with some of this -- the lower end jobs that they have now?
DOBBS: Wait a minute, you are talking like -- I though thought you were a capitalist. Now are talking like you are running a command centralized economy.
KIRKLAND: We want companies to decide where to go. And in the process, keeping the American economy competitive.
You made a very good point about Newt's thing. Outsourcing, though, is only a few hundred thousand jobs, we think. Don't we? Do have you a number on that?
DOBBS: We have a number, and I think the number, the best number I heard, is 600,000 to 900,000, the "Wall Street Journal" today said, I believe, it was 300,000 to 600,000.
KIRKLAND: What about for other countries, is it worse for other than other countries?
DOBBS: Absolutely.
KIRKLAND: We're the only ones doing this?
DOBBS: Well, we're not the only ones doing it. You asked which is worse, I answered worse, a relative term, which applies that it's more than 1.
MAIDMENT: But you see, there's some predictions from the Federal Reserve, and you can take that as you want to take it. They are looking at over the next 10 years, something like 3 million jobs being outsourced from America. You have to set that against their projections of 20 million new jobs total being created.
DOBBS: I'm not going to accept anybody's forecast, including the feds, on job creation. I would like to hear your views on it. We've got 3 years without job creation with any significance. Isn't it time that we all started looking very seriously at what in world is going on in this structural economy. We give presidents too much blame, too much credit when things are good and bad. But there's something going on here that our economists are not being intelligent about in their analysis to tell us what's going on.
MORRISON: But, if you also consider that in the same period, we've had huge productivity gains by American workers, that our industries have turned around very strongly at high profits. This is all very healthy.
KIRKLAND: One things that's going on...
MORRISON: That our economic policy is working.
KIRKLAND: One thing that's going on, is that labor costs, healthcare costs, all these costs of having employees are soaring and companies have been burned before by this recessions, they were lucky to create jobs. There's a problem, I agree, but it's not a simple, simple...
MAIDMENT: And the other big thing that's happening underneath all this, is that business, big business now, is multinational. Countries are still, by definition, national. So politicians look at this through a very local lens, and that's not how companies work.
Look at a company like GE...
DOBBS: Working men and women in this country happen to be American.
We have to leave it right there, gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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