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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
University of Wisconsin Student Found After Weekend Abduction; Interview With Jim Bakker, Lori Bakker, Tammy Faye Messner; Interview With Sharon Rocha, Ron Grantski
Aired March 31, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, exclusive, Jim Bakker speaks out for the first time about Tammy Faye Messner's inoperable lung cancer. His ex-wife went public with her shocking health secret on this very show. And now the notorious TV evangelist shares his feelings. Is Jim Bakker praying for a miracle too?
But first, a mission University of Wisconsin girl is found alive. A suspect still at large. The very latest on the Audrey Seiler mystery and a lot more next on LARRY KING LIVE.
KING: We'll also talk later with Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski, the mother and stepfather of the late Laci Peterson, that will be later in the program.
We welcome now from Madison, Wisconsin, Adam Morris, a close friend of Audrey Seiler, the University of Wisconsin student found safe today. Tony Gally, the reporter covering the story for WKOW TV and, of course, in Salt Lake City, Ed Smart, our old friend who had the miraculous good fortune to have his daughter after a long time away recovered.
Tony Gally, what happened to this girl and how was she freed?
TONY GALLY, WKOW TV: What we know tonight, Larry, is that about 1:00 Central Time this afternoon, right near the hotel where family and friends, many from Minnesota, had traveled here and been involved in the search effort were staying, right near that hotel some 100, 300 feet, some office worker looked out the window and saw a woman in distress. That led to a tip call to police and minutes later it led to an ambulance arriving and whisking away Audrey Seiler who had been missing for days, the University Wisconsin student.
And immediately after that event, more than 100 law enforcement officers swept into this area. This is on a main thoroughfare in Madison, Wisconsin, right near its downtown, right near its university. Those officers, with guns drawn, began going from car to car in business districts. They went by one of Madison's lakes. They spanned out over a two to three-mile area and began looking for, what they called, was a lone suspect, a person who they believed at the time, was involved with Seiler's disappearance.
That search, that effort to identify this person and find this person goes on now. And of course, I think a lot of your viewers are aware that this woman, Audrey Seiler, was also the victim of a random attack on the University of Wisconsin campus a month ago, a very mysterious attack. She did not see the person who came from behind her and knocked her unconscious and she was found a couple blocks away. She is safe tonight, but so many questions to be answered about who was involved in this abduction.
KING: Adam Morris, have you spoken with Audrey?
ADAM MORRIS, FRIEND OF AUDREY SEILER: Since she was found?
MORRIS: No, I have not. She has been just with her close family since then.
KING: What do you make of this, Adam? You know her pretty well. What's your read on this?
MORRIS: I don't know what to think. You know, it's surprised us all, definitely. And everybody is just extremely happy tonight, cheers the whole day at the hotel, lots of tears of happiness. We're all just really happy she's back.
KING: Do you know, Adam, if she was physically harmed at all?
MORRIS: All reports is that she's fine. She's going to recover. Obviously, she went through a hard time. She's dehydrated, I guess. Don't know the specifics of any injuries at all, but she's supposed to make a full recovery. So, that's good news.
KING: Ed smart, you went through this, no one would know it better than you. What do you think of this story and this quick recovery?
ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART'S FATHER: It's beautiful. You want -- this is what you want to hear every time someone goes missing or an amber alert happens. And, you know, the public just remains the most incredible advocate for these missing people. And it's just, you know, you thank the Lord that these days happen.
KING: They did not give any details about what happened to her, the police. Do you agree with that, Ed?
SMART: I'm sure that the police probably haven't. You know, they're very tight lipped, especially on a recovery like this and trying to nail down the suspect and find him probably before they give out too much information.
KING: Tony, what do you make about how quick this was done?
GALLY: Well, I know that this has been an extraordinary police effort. The sort of dedication of resources that this police department here in Madison, Wisconsin, a city of 200,000 people, I have been here almost two decades in this city and have never seen this sort of an effort. So, really, law enforcement threw everything at this.
But, again, it was simply someone, a bystander's recognition, of seeing a woman who appeared to match somewhat the description of Audrey Seiler and saw a woman in an unusual place looking in distress.
Larry, we have learned a few more details about this abduction in the last few moments and that is that Madison police officials tonight are saying that Audrey Seiler, when she was abducted, felt that she was being abducted by an armed person, but a gun was never shown and she felt she was not free to go and she did not know the person who was involved in this abduction.
Certainly, in the last few days, there have been questions as to whether Seiler was being stalked since she had been victimized earlier. Police seem to be ruling out that possibility, at least as a priority in their investigation. But in terms of the swiftness of this, I think I echo what was said about the amount of information that was put out. All eyes and ears were on this college student.
KING: Adam, what kind of girl is Audrey?
MORRIS: Oh, Audrey is an amazing girl. Very dedicated to her school work. I believe she had a 4.0 last semester. Very giving, very caring, always asking to see if everybody's got what they need. Just, I mean, very loving, I mean, she talks to her family quite often on the phone. And a great friend.
KING: Did she have a boyfriend?
MORRIS: Yes. yes.
KING: Have you seen him?
MORRIS: I've been in contact with him. I'm actually his roommate. That's how I met Audrey and those two together are, I mean, it just shows the kind of people they are. They're very -- I think the best word would be cute together, and you can see that they're both caring people. And he is -- he's been with her, I haven't talked to him since she was found. He's been with her.
KING: Ed, what's the smartest thing for the parents to do now?
SMART: Just to try to create an environment where she feels safe. I think that that's probably the most important thing. And also to know, I think that so many people out there don't know how to keep themselves safe. I don't know the particulars on this situation, but, you know, people need to think about what they're doing when they go out. You know, you hear so many assaults on campus. You hear about so many different things happening that it's really, really important for everyone to consider what they're doing. So that they're safe.
KING: Tony, with an armed suspect on the loose, what's the mood in Madison?
GALLY: Well, the mood for most of the day was really high alert. Again, as I pointed out before, Larry. With businesses, with commuters just feet away from these armed police officers, there was a real intense effort to try to find this person quickly and make sure that others weren't in danger. So, I think that the mood remains in that alert stage.
But one thing I did want to point out that is going to be a significant question as this matter goes around is that Audrey Seiler, the last time anybody saw Audrey Seiler was on surveillance camera videotape as she left her campus apartment building. She did not appear to be in distress, she appeared to be possibly looking for someone outside. It was very early in the morning on a weekend. There had been a lot of questions on this and still a lot of answers as to how it is that this person who abducted her was able to make contact and get control of her.
KING: We'll be staying on top of it. Thank you all very much. Adam Morris, Tony Gally in Madison, and Ed Smart in Salt Lake City.
When we and back, Jim Bakker the TV evangelist, former husband of Tammy Faye Bakker. Tammy Faye last week on this weekend revealed that she had inoperable lung cancer. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEITH SEILER, AUDREY SEILER'S FATHER: Audrey was overjoyed to return back to us, just relieved, glad to be warm, to see her friends and family. A bit surprised that, of the big hullabaloo. But other than that, she's just content right now.
KING: By the way, tomorrow night, Peter Jennings will join us. Most of the discussion will deal with the life and times of Christ and Paul. That's tomorrow night, Peter Jennings.
We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, another visit from Jim Bakker, the televangelist, former husband of Tammy Faye Messner. This is his exclusive first reaction to Tammy Faye's announcement.
He's in Branson, Missouri.
Why Branson, Jim?
JIM BAKKER, TELEVANGELIST: Well, some friend had a restaurant here that they bought. And they handed me the keys, bought me some TV camera's and were' back on the air on television. In fact, were in about 170 countries right now and about 60 cities in the United States every day.
KING: What's the program called?
BAKKER: It's called the "New Jim Bakker Show."
That's original, right?
KING: How does it feel to be back? BAKKER: It's awesome. We're in a restaurant. This is actually a live restaurant and we serve food and all. And people come and go while the show is on and we just have the best time. People drop in from all over the world and a lot of my old friends are back with us and some of the greatest guests. Tony Orlando actually did our first show with us and a lot of ministers and friends. So, we really have a good time talking and interviewing the audience and it's awesome to be back.
KING: Last Thursday Tammy Faye Messner announced she had been diagnosed with lung cancer. Lets take a look.
TAMMY FAYE MESSNER: I had my lung X-rayed and they couldn't find anything. So when they CAT scanned my tummy, they caught the left lobe of my left lung, and they saw a little tiny white spot on it. So they decided to do a CAT Scan of my lungs and when they did they found a two inch spot right next to my heart and then that spot on the bottom and another little spot. Two weeks ago I found out they went in and they did a biopsy of my lung where they go through your back and get four biopsy, and they found out it was lung cancer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Jim, how did you hear about that news?
BAKKER: My daughter Tammy Sue called me, first of all, and told me about it. Then I talked to my son, Jamie. I knew it before she had announced it publicly. It devastated the children. They love their mom and it was just an over whelming thing, because when you hear the words inoperable, it's like somebody saying you got a death sentence. But, you know, Tammy Faye is a fighter and she is like the unsinkable Molly Brown. And if there's any way, she's going to make this. And, like I told the children, prayer, you know, sometimes the doctors say, we don't know what we can do. But we know what god can do and I know that's where our whole family is standing on faith in god.
KING: Did you watch her on this show?
BAKKER: Yes, yes, I saw the show.
KING: Do you think she handles herself well?
BAKKER: I think she handles herself very well. She -- she, you know, it's a difficult situation. She seems, even though she laughs still a lot, she seems to be a much more sober Tammy Faye. You know, she's -- her theory -- in fact, she used to sing a song years ago. If life hands you a lemon, make lemonade. She tries to make lemonade out of everything. She's even taken eyelashes to a new life form. You know, she replaced Carol Channing as the eyelash person, and, so, jokes are told. But she laughs at herself and I think that's why people are, you know, really standing with her so very, very much. Because she laughs at the "Saturday Night Live" stuff and just, right now, it's pretty hard to laugh, though, when your the doctors tell you have inoperable cancer.
KING: Have you done anything to offer to help in a way other than praying for her?
BAKKER: We, of course, are praying and I talked to my daughter Tammy Sue just a few hours ago, and I know that her mother's going in for chemotherapy, the stents going to be put in in a few days. She is going to Eisenhower there to Lucy -- what is that -- Lucy Curci, how's it pronounced, Center there. A tremendous new cancer center at -- Dr. Brooks is her doctor. I have talked to Dr. Brooks and they all remain hopeful, even though it can't be operated on, somehow this cancer can be shrunk down. The doctor just told me today that it's hitting her vocal cord the nerves and the muscles and their vocal cord and it's there. The spot is on her lung about the size of a silver dollar and then a couple the size of dimes and this thing is literally making it so she's having more and more difficulty to talk. I saw your show and then I saw her on a news piece a few days later and her voice seems to be actually getting worse at this time.
KING: We'll take a break and come back with more with of Jim Bakker on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE.
Jim's new wife will be joining us in a little while. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MESSNER: Well, I'm scared. But that's not wrong to be scared, it's OK. God knows I'm scared and he understands that. I don't like what's happening to me. The other day I was laying in a tanning bed and I was crying out to god. I hate what I'm going through. I hate this. I hate this. I'm so scared, what I am going to do. And the thing that bothers you, Larry, when you find out that you have an illness that could be terminal, is you always think everything is a last time.
KING: We'll be going to calls in a little while.
Jim Bakker joins us from Branson, Missouri, the home of his new television show.
And Jim, we have a little surprise for you.
Joining us from Charlotte, North Carolina is Tammy Faye. There she is.
MESSNER: Hi, jim.
BAKKER: Hello, Tammy Faye.
MESSNER: How are you doing?
BAKKER: How are you doing?
MESSNER: You're looking well.
BAKKER: Thank you. How are you doing?
MESSNER: I'm doing fine. I hope that you can convince our two kids to quit worrying and mom's gonna be all right.
KING: Jim, just said that you were going to have chemotherapy and you said you weren't.
BAKKER: No, I am going to have chemotherapy. I am going to California on Monday and they're going to put a cathider (ph) in my chest and then it's going to be two or three days and they're going to start the chemotherapy.
KING: How do you react to this, Jim, after all you have a new wife. Tammy Faye will always be associated with you. I imagine you still have great feelings for her.
How does this all hit you?
BAKKER: It's the kind of thing, you know, when someone's the mother of your children, you know, it just reaches you and touches you because the children are just wrapped. You know, they have joined together with Tammy Faye. And Jamie was telling me they were in a restaurant and the three of them just wept together. And Sue is looking forward to literally going or actually when her mom comes back from Eisenhower to go there to the hospital and she's going to be a part of all of this. Sue said today, I'm staying with mom. I'm going to the therapy with her. I'm going to the chemo with her. And she said, and I'm going to take care of her. And Jamie has always been Tammy Faye's kind of special boy. And he really cares about his mom.
So, really, you know, it's -- I talked to your doctor today, by the way, Dr. Brooks and Sally Brooks, two of the finest people on earth. And it's amazing that the head of the Cancer Society would be the wife of your doctor. But, Jamie is just overwhelmed by all this. But the good news is the doctor says you can make it.
MESSNER: And I know I can.
BAKKER: And the doctor says with these treatments, you know. And I believe with these wonderful doctors we have today and I believe with prayer and millions of people are praying for Tammy Faye right now. They're praying all over the world and we believe in the power of prayer.
KING: Tammy, do you always think you're going to be linked to, Jim?
MESSNER: It's inevitable, but he's a real nice man to be linked to, Larry.
BAKKER: Thank you.
MESSNER: And one thing I'd like to say -- I always like to say, I try not to tell God how big my problem is. I'm telling my problem how big God is.
KING: Are you still frightened or has that been reduced a little, Tammy?
MESSNER: Well, it gets more real as they start making calls. I talked to a nurse at the hospital today and, you know, you have to give her all the things and all your medications, give her your whole life history. And as the days progressed to where it's going to start, it's becoming much more real, but I'm really relying on the prayers of God's people which I appreciate more than anyone knows. With prayers like that, man, you got to make it!
KING: Have you heard from a lot of people, Tammy?
MESSNER: We had way over 2,000 e-mails. I sit and read them to and 60 at a time and I cry because it means so much to know that many people care.
KING: Jim, she's always been for one of a better word, gutsy, hasn't she?
BAKKER: Yes. She's the unsinkable Molly Brown. You throw something at her, she's going to come back. And you know, Tammy Sue was saying today that they're overwhelm would e-mails and letters that the family can't even answer them all, especially since she was on the LARRY KING SHOW. I don't know what happened but they must have given out the address or e-mail out. Sue say were inundated and she said it's so awesome that so many people really care.
MESSNER: Thank you.
KING: A lot of people do, Tammy. You realize that, Tammy?
MESSNER: I didn't realize it, Larry, because we had been, you know, kind of put down for such a long time, and it's really hard to realize that you've come to a place in life where people finally, finally love you again. It means so much to me. I think that's part of the healing process when you know you're loved and cared for.
KING: Well, the two of you sure have been through a lot together and apart.
And Jim, would you say that you're fully back to health, good health mentally?
BAKKER: I think so. I don't think I'll ever be the same. You know, after you go through some of the things we've been through, there's always some scars that stay there, but I have a family, I have five children now, plus my two children that Jamie and Tammy Sue. And I have a whole new life, a new television show. And Branson has just opened their hearts to me all the way from Andy Williams and all the people here in town have just been -- I sometimes pinch myself to think, have I died and gone to heaven, because the people are so nice in Branson. MESSNER: Larry, I used to sing a song "The Sun Would Shine Again." I just want to tell Jim that the sun is shining again for him in his life. He deserves it, and God bless you, Jim.
KING: Thank you, Tammy. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for the surprise, and good luck with the chemo and everything.
MESSNER: Thank you very much, Larry.
KING: That was Tammy Faye, surprising Tammy Faye Messner, surprising her ex-husband Jim Bakker.
When we come back, we'll meet Jim and his current wife Lori Bakker on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Still to come Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski, the mother and step father of Laci Peterson. And tomorrow night Peter Jennings.
KING: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. Jim Bakker, the televangelist, remains with us in Branson, Missouri. Joining him now in Lori Bakker, his lovely wife. Lori, are you part of the television show, too?
LORI BAKKER, JIM BAKKER'S WIFE: Yes. Every day. Every single day. Five days a week.
BAKKER: She's my cohost. We have a good time on our show. And we sort of like -- we're the examples of the God of the second chance and God's given us a whole new life here in Branson.
KING: Lori, how did you react to Tammy's illness?
L. BAKKER: Well, when Tammy Sue told us, of course, it was devastating. I mean, to hear a daughter tell her father that her mom had cancer, it was so sad. And, of course, I watched your show with Tammy Faye and, actually, I watched it by myself. I was actually home alone that night with five kids out that night and Jim was busy working so I could see the rerun. And I watch it.
And actually I wanted to pick up the phone that night and give her a call and just say that we're praying for her and we believe that with God, all things are possible.
KING: Are you very close with Tammy Faye? Were you always friendly? I mean, there could be some difficulties with the second wife?
L. BAKKER: Well, absolutely. I think so many couples go through that and second marriages. But, really, we never had any -- we never had any crossroads. As a matter of fact, the one thing I'll always remember is one day we were talking on the phone, this was a few years back, and we were talking on the phone and she said, you know, Lori, this was before we had the five kids we adopted, she said, you have two kids. And I didn't exactly get it at that moment, but she was saying that Tammy Sue and Jamie, that she was sharing them with me, as well.
KING: How are the kids doing?
L. BAKKER: Which ones?
KING: Your kids?
L. BAKKER: The five kids?
L. BAKKER: Our kids are doing wonderful. They're fabulous. We have five kids we adopted from the inner city of Phoenix and they are fabulous. We have a little boy who is 6 years old and then there's four older sisters. And they're all the way up to 14 years old and they're great.
BAKKER: Our littlest boy, Ricky. This is little Lori. Tell quick about the story with little Lori.
L. BAKKER: Well, I was in the delivery room, actually, when little Lori is born, and she's my namesake, and the reason I was in the delivery room is because she, her mom, had complications during the pregnancy and then, therefore, during the actual delivery and called and asked for me who they called the Church Lady in the inner city. And I was with her when she gave birth through a C-section. So when they told her it was a little girl, she said I wanted to name her Lori, so I could always remember what I had done for the family.
KING: Jim, these children are multiracial?
BAKKER: They're all Hispanic.
KING: They're all Hispanic.
BAKKER: They're wonderful. Little Ricky is our littlest boy and the other day he likes to go to Lowe's with me and I said, you're Bob the builder. He said, no, Papa -- he calls me papa -- you're Bob the builder and I'm your assistant.
And we sat there talking and he told me a story of how he was living there in the inner city, no electricity, 120 degrees you know there in the desert, and he was living a very unhappy life. He had to literally steal food out of the refrigerator at night to feed his little baby sister who was 1 years old.
He said, you know, Papa, I prayed that I would find a new home. And, you know what, a new home found me. And that was when mama Lori went there and found him.
And she came home about a year and a half ago with two more kids. So, I hate to send her off any more. No, I don't really. But she always brings -- she wants to bring some more home right now.
KING: You two are amazing. Let's get a call for the Bakkers, Jim and Lori. St. Louis, hello. CALLER: Hello. Mr. Bakker. Mr. King.
CALLER: I watched you plenty of times. I would like to ask Mr. Bakker, what happened to the existence of Heritage USA and also what type of music is performed at your restaurant?
KING: Okay. She'll be coming to Branson. Is there music performed there?
BAKKER: Yes, we are an open restaurant. We just love to have people at our show. And we have all kinds of music. We have all the way from country music to classical music and just...
L. BAKKER: A little bit of rock 'n' roll.
BAKKER: Tony Orlando sang the first show.
KING: What happened to Heritage House?
L. BAKKER: Heritage USA is -- the housing part is still going very strong. In fact, it's almost sold out from what I've been told. They've built a gold course there. But Heritage USA, the other part is still closed. The rumor is it's being sold, but that's all I know about it right now.
KING: San Juan, Capistrano, hello.
CALLER: Jim, my heart goes out to you and your family. Could you please tell me how you and your family are comforting one another during this difficult time?
KING: Jim, you want to go first?
BAKKER: Well, you know, it's all about family. And the body of Christ, the church is called the family and sometimes the church family is closer than our blood relatives. But, just like today, I was on the phone and with Tammy Sue and calling Jamie, can't reach him at his house today, but I prayed for Sue and asked God to just be with her and bless her and I said, honey, I'm going on Larry King and so she turned around and prayed for me. But that's how we do. We all care for each other.
KING: That's nice. Atlanta, hello.
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: Yes. First of all, Larry, thank you very much for having Jim and Tammy back on your show, that was really decent of you to have them there. Jim, congratulations on your new show.
I have two questions for you. One, do you ever see a time when Tammy may be performing after she gets better and we know she is going to get better because she is on prayer lines across the country. Would you have her performing at your show? Two, did you have any response to Jerry Falwell, when he came out and pointed the finger at American citizens for 9/11 happening, because we know that you've been on the pointing end of his finger for a lot of things he said about you that were not true as well.
BAKKER: Well you know, we'd love to have Tammy Faye sing on the show. It's a crazy show, because we've had the heavyweight champion of the world come by and one was sitting here. We have singers. Many times we have people just walk in. And I tell you if Tammy Faye walks in here, we'll have her sing.
KING: What about the Falwell question?
BAKKER: I'm, you know, we have all forgiven Jerry Falwell for what happened happened or didn't happen. And, you know, we don't want to go back and relive any of those things of the past. I had to live in forgiveness. God says if we don't forgive, we won't be forgiven. So, my life is living in total forgiveness.
You know, the 9/11 thing is a tragic moment, and America will never be the same and the fear that has brought to this country. But, the only thing that will cover fear is God's love. The Bible says perfect love cast out fear. So, we're trying to preach a positive gospel that God loves you and God loves everyone and that's why Christ, we've been seeing a lot about "Passion of the Christ" but that we didn't have to fear, we don't have to try to solve all these problems ourselves, we have a god taking care of it for us.
KING: By the way, did you see the "Passion of the Christ?"
KING: What did you think?
BAKKER: I think it is one of the greatest films ever made. See it again at Easter time.
L. BAKKER: Yes.
BAKKER: It is. You know, somebody said, many somebody said that Mel Gibson overdid the story, overdid the brutality, but if you go to the Profit Isaiah, it said he was beaten beyond recognization (sic). He was beaten until it says, he didn't even look like a man any more. And he stayed with that cross, he stayed with that work, so I could have a second chance. So there be hope for all of us who blew it.
KING: We'll take a break and come back with more moments with Jim Bakker and Lori Bakker from Branson, Missouri. Take some more calls.
And then Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski. It's a bit night for them. They're the parents of Laci Peterson and expected today or the next day the president is going to sign that new bill, it's been dubbed Laci and Connor's Law. We'll ask them about that, but back with the Bakkers after this. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MESSNER: You wake up in the morning, it's like a death, when somebody dies in your family, and you think you're over it and then you wake up in the morning and it hits you. I won't ever see my brother again. I won't ever see my mom again. And it just kind of hits you like that. But I have found the way that I have deal with it, is I just start praising the Lord and I say, OK god, you said to ever give thanks. Now how do expect me to thank you for cancer. I'm learning to thank God for cancer, which is really hard to do Larry. But the Bible says to do that. And I believe the Bible followed God's word. There may be a miracle in store.
MESSNER: You know, Jim, I never realized what that song was before the lord is my shepherd, I shall not want, he -- we have lived that.
BAKKER: Right, we came into town. We didn't have anything to speak of. We had Tammy's car left...
MESSNER: That's about it.
BAKKER: And we came to town. And the first day the Chrysler dealer gave me a new Chrysler to drive, gave me another new one -- just rotates them.
MESSNER: God bless, Jeff Boyd (ph).
BAKKER: The folk husband have put together a little office. Even we didn't have the office any more and God opened this new office. And you don't have to own anything, God will take care of you. God will take care of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Ah, memories.
Manchester, Kentucky, hello.
CALLER: Hi, Larry. My husband and I love your show.
KING: Thank you.
CALLER: I was wondering what Jim thought about Tammy being on the "Surreal Life."
KING: Did you like that, jim?
BAKKER: I didn't see any of those shows, by the way. I'd ask Tammy Sue. Sue -- you know, I can ask Tammy Sue anything, I said, why did your mother do that?
And she said well, Roe (ph) wanted her to do it and thought it would be a good witness and all. I didn't see the show, so I really can't comment. I've seen the little clips on your show. It looks pretty crazy to me, especially...
KING: Alameda, hello.
CALLER: Cancer survivor and I'm a huge fan of Jim and Tammy Faye. And Jim, I sent you a letter when I had cancer and you sent a letter back and I really appreciate that. I am out of law school now, and I'm a lawyer. But anyway my question is this, does Tammy Faye know if her lung cancer was linked to her colon cancer at all, either to the cancer itself or the chemo therapy she had for colon cancer?
KING: I think she said on this show it might have been. Is that your read, Jim?
BAKKER: I talked to the doctor today and he said this is colon cancer that has gone to the lungs. They thought they had all the cancer, wanted her to have chemotherapy and she didn't feel good about it at that time, but now that somehow got into her blood stream and went into the lungs. So, this is the colon cancer that has moved into the lungs now and into three spots and it's over the heart, the one big mass is over her heart and so they cannot operate.
KING: Lori, you had a tough life. Do you ever fear of slipping back?
L. BAKKER: No, really, I don't. I said it once before I think on your show, if I take it a day at a time. And I really don't because, you know, God's done so much for us. And I mean every single day here at the studio doing TV, raising five kids. I mean, that is a lot of stress and you know, maybe you could slip back, I guess. But I really don't fear that because I just know what my God's done for me. Even after seeing "The Passion" it makes it even more real.
KING: Hollywood, Florida.
CALLER: Yes. Thank you, Larry, for taking my call. My prayers with all of you. Tammy and your family. Assuming that you think that the mind, the body and spirit functions altogether, my question is this, what techniques, if any besides prayer alone do you or Tammy practice, not just for healing, but in your everyday life, such as visual imagery or things of that nature.
KING: Jim, do you do any other things besides prayer?
BAKKER: Lori and I teach young people a lot. And one of our little sayings, it's not originally probably with us, but what happens in the mind will happen in time. What you think about, what you dwell on it happens. In fact, when I was in prison taught a class on how to stop smoking and we had people imaging themselves smoke free, you know. Not to say I'm going to stop smoking because that just reinforces the fact that you're smoking, but what happens in your mind. Like, I told them in prison, you think about robbing banks, you're going to rob banks. You think about having sex all the time, you're going to have sex. But -- so, it's important what we think about. The bible talks about thinking about things that are pure and wholesome and good. And absolutely, I believe in, you know, it's the meditation of your heart.
L. BAKKER: Actually, I wanted to say this, too, Larry. I really appreciate you having Suzanne Somers on the other night. I want every women -- I am teaching every woman about what I learned from Suzanne Somers and here book. I ran out -- actually my mom got the book for me immediately, I've been reading.
KING: I will tell her when I see her.
L. BAKKER: It's set me free. Tell her that.
BAKKER: Life changing.
KING: Jim Bakker and Lori Bakker, great to see you both.
BAKKER: Thank you. Good to see you, Larry.
KING: They fight back. We'll be back and when we come back, we'll talk with Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski. Tomorrow is a big day for them. Don't go away.
KING: We're back. Tomorrow in Washington at a signing ceremony will sign in the Unborn Victims of Violence Act dubbed the Laci and Connor's law. The United States Senate approved it, the House approved it. It makes it a federal offense to harm an unborn child in a crime committed against a pregnant women.
Joining us in Washington, they've been fighting for this a long time. Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski, the mother and step-father respectively of the late Laci Peterson and the late Connor Peterson. Will you be in the office, Sharon, will you be there for the signing?
SHARON ROCHA, LACI PETERSON'S MOTHER: Yes, that's why we're here in Washington. We're looking forward to that.
KING: Ron, this law says -- wasn't it always a crime to harm -- if you harmed a pregnant woman and harmed the child, wasn't it always a crime for both?
RON GRANTSKI, LACE PETERSON'S STEP-FATHER: No, it wasn't. Some states it's been for a while. Every state from what I understand, Sharon, is more proficient in that, but they have reduced penalties depending on which state you're in.
ROCHA: Actually, Larry, this is a federal law and not state law, so it covers the unborn child, as well. Now it will cover in every single state. Many states, 28, 29 states already have this law, and California has had it since 1970. Now, the difference between the two are -- like in California, it is both murders can be tried and can be tried as a double homicide. But with the federal law, well, it's the same thing now. With a double homicide. KING: Are the penalties greater, Ron?
GRANTSKI: Oh, yes. Sure. It can be a death, a double homicide. So, there was one young lady, we've had a lot of other families from other states that were here in Washington. We were here last week. And we heard some of the stories that these people went through and the sufferings. There was one young woman there, if I can tell you the story.
GRANTSKI: She'd been stabbed repeatedly and she managed to survive and her baby was killed and she was about a week from giving birth and because it wasn't a law in the state that she was in, he got a reduced charge. He wasn't convicted of murdering a baby. It was reduced. That's not right.
KING: Was there any strong opposition to this, Sharon? Was there any strong opposition to this bill?
ROCHA: There's a lot of opposition. A lot of people tend to think it has something to do -- it's going to interfere with abortion. However, like you said, California has had this law since 1970 and it has never interfered with abortion in the state of California. If anything, I think abortion laws simply became more lenient over the past 34 years, even after having this law.
KING: How have you lived with all of this, Ron? What keeps you going?
GRANTSKI: Good question. Some days we don't have too good of days, but that's part of lives. Here, again, we have great friend, great families. We get a lot of support from all over the country, e- mails and that's -- that helps me and I think it helps Sharon, too.
KING: Sharon, what keeps you going?
ROCHA: Same thing that he just said. I need a lot of support and I have a lot of support. I have wonderful friends and wonderful family and everybody's been very understanding and very supportive and it's just, without them, I wouldn't be sitting here today, I know that.
KING: Ron is a plus or a minus that this case has garnered so much attention? From your standpoint? From the family's standpoint.
GRANTSKI: I have mixed feelings about that. When this -- here, again, I don't want to get into this too heavy.
KING: I understand, you're under a gag order..
GRANTSKI: We needed all the support we got. Our friends would do anything and did anything and everything, which got you folks involved, the press.
Now things have changed, times have changed and it's a year and a half later. So we needed the support and we still need the support and the people in the country have given us all kinds of support. And we're here for this bill and I think it's important that hopefully this will deter some animal out there from doing harm on a federal piece of property.
KING: Was there a minus side to the attention, Sharon?
ROCHA: Yes, at times, there have been. There are times that I feel you have to be very cautious about what we say or do because you never know what's going to end up in the media.
KING: Do you plan to attend the trial every day?
ROCHA: Oh, yes, I do.
KING: You do.
GRANTSKI: I am hoping I have to work a little bit because we do have to keep a roof over our head, too.
KING: How far is San Mateo for you, Sharon?
ROCHA: It's about a two-hour drive. On a good day.
KING: You expect to be a witness, too?
On a good day, yes.
You expect to be a witness?
ROCHA: Well, I have received a subpoena along with a lot of other people, so I probably will be.
KING: How is Amy and Brent doing? The brother and sister?
ROCHA: They're doing as well as can be expected. They both have their hard times and they're struggling through this, just as everybody else is.
GRANTSKI: We're there for each other. If they need us, we're there and vice versa. My son's birthday this weekend.
KING: Oh, yes.
KING: What did you make of the TV movie about all this?
GRANTSKI: I was afraid you were going to ask that. I didn't make much of it. It was pretty much taken from their interpretation of news broadcasts. I don't know what you thought. That's what I thought.
KING: Didn't flip me much. Did you watch it, Sharon?
ROCHA: Yes, I did watch it. I was -- I didn't like it at all because I felt that, my opinion.
KING: You're entitled.
ROCHA: Well, one reason, I think the timing was terrible, because this is not the time to be showing a movie when you're just basing it on...
ROCHA: And they presented it as fact, because the only time I ever saw anything in the movie was the very beginning that said it was based on a true story. It did not say it was not fictional or factional.
KING: Good luck in all you do. You have all of our sympathies and our support. Good luck with the signing. It's a thrill and you deserve it.
ROCHA: Thank you.
GRANTSKI: We appreciate it.
KING: Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski, Laci Peterson's mother and step-father respectively. The bill will be signed by President Bush tomorrow and they will be there, so will CNN cameras.
And I'll be back in a couple of minutes to tell you about tomorrow night. Don't go away.
KING: Peter Jennings has an extraordinary new special, it's gotten advanced rave reviews about the life of Christ and Paul. It's going to air next Monday night. He's our special guest tomorrow night. Peter Jennings of ABC news.
Speaking of special. He's special every night. In fact, there should be a bulletin in the newspaper listings, special, "NEWSNIGHT," Aaron Brown, a must tune in.
Mr. Brown, you are special.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: I'll take that. Mention that to Mr. Jennings tomorrow.
KING: I will.
BROWN: Thank you very much.
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