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American Morning
Iraqis Killed in Sadr City; Interview With Senator Joe Biden; Interview With Bob Kerrey; Interview With Paul Bremer
Aired April 06, 2004 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. U.S. troops take on a radical cleric and his militia in Baghdad. Many Iraqis die in that fight last night. Also, the question of chaos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMB. PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: There is no question we have control of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Paul Bremer assuring Americans that the tables have not turned. But can he bring in the man he calls the "outlaw" who he sees as threatening stability?
And waiting for the right moment around Fallujah. U.S. Marines struggle to put down months of insurgency.
All ahead this hour on a busy AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Nine o'clock in New York. Welcome back, and good morning. I'm Bill Hemmer.
Soledad continues her vacation this week. Heidi Collins with us today in New York.
Good morning, again.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, again.
Also this morning, we are looking ahead to Thursday's testimony in the 9/11 hearings from National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. We've been talking about it for days now. And her conversation with Bob Kerry, a former Democratic Senator and member of the commission. What questions will he ask, and what was said in previous private testimony?
HEMMER: Also this hour, Wal-Mart playing hardball with local governments, they say, when it comes to expansion of stores. That's what the opponents contend.
When the company does not get the answer it wants, does it just ignore the rules? We'll talk to some of the people right now at the center of a large dispute in California. We'll get both sides on that issue coming up this morning here.
COLLINS: Jack Cafferty, now a busy morning for you.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Kennedy thinks that Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam. Agree? Disagree? AM@CNN.com
HEMMER: Are we on track for a record for e-mails?
CAFFERTY: I don't know. Maybe. Lots of response.
HEMMER: Yes?
CAFFERTY: Yes. Way over a thousand already.
HEMMER: Wow.
COLLINS: All right. We'll get to them a little bit later on. Thanks, Jack.
To the news now.
The ACLU is filing a class action lawsuit, challenging the government's list of people barred from flying on commercial airlines. The ACLU claims that some people are mistakenly put on the list. The Transportation Security Administration, which compiled the list, has acknowledged some problems, but says it has worked to help people wrongly identified.
Three U.S. soldiers are under observation for possible uranium contamination. A military spokeswoman says up to six other soldiers have been examined now at Fort Dix, New Jersey. A New York newspaper requested medical tests for nine National Guard members who said the U.S Army refused to examine them. The soldiers complained of illness after reportedly being exposed to depleted uranium in Iraq.
Police in Connecticut arrested about a dozen people arrested after some March madness fans from UConn got out of control in the streets there. The celebration of the team's second NCAA title in six seasons got rowdy, and some fans started fires and overturned cars. University police said there were no serious injuries.
The Huskies had a pretty easy game, though, with some big leads, as they beat Georgia Tech 82-73. And the UConn women's team plays in the title game tonight. Big day there.
Flood warnings in effect in parts of Texas. At least five people died after a bridge had washed out near Pecos in New Mexico. Three days of rain caused flooding in Eddy County, which has been declared a disaster area now. There is still chance of more rain in parts of New Mexico today, unfortunately.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: Want to get back to Iraq this hour. Radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has reportedly left a mosque where he's been holed up and headed now to the city of Najaf. He has issued many demands, saying that the current uprising by his followers will continue until U.S. and coalition forces pull out of populated areas in Iraq.
All that coming now as the fighting continues in a number of parts of Iraq. And Jim Clancy watching the movements this hour for us in Baghdad.
Jim, what do you have?
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, let's talk, first, about Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shia cleric who has a considerable following, although he is overshadowed by other leaders in Iraq. He has moved to Najaf, as you noted. He may be inside the Imam Ali Mosque, one of the holiest shrines in all of Shia Islam right now. Certainly not someplace that anyone is going to go after him to try to serve an arrest warrant.
But, at the same time, issuing a list of demands, saying that his intifada, his uprising against the U.S. occupation is going to continue with his army so long as the U.S. continues to be inside populated areas. Until and unless the U.S. releases all of the prisoners that it is holding, all the Iraqis that it is holding.
These demands coming from Muqtada al-Sadr. Not likely to be followed by the U.S. But after a night of heavy fighting that saw scores of Iraqi supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr killed, no U.S. troops, but still something that rattled Sadr City, the predominantly Shia neighborhood here in Baghdad. A lot of people hoping that some way or another this can be diffused -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim, let's talk about the clashes. And there are many: Sadr City and Baghdad, we mentioned, Fallujah, with the Marines surrounding that area. What updates are you getting from the coalition on that?
CLANCY: Well, it would seem overnight in Sadr City here in Baghdad you could hear the gunfire, heavy machine gunfire. That is a situation where the U.S. appears to have the upper hand. What is not good the number of casualties.
More than a hundred Iraqis wounded. As we noted, scores of them killed.
Then you go to Fallujah, a very different situation. Sunni Muslim stronghold in the so-called Sunni Triangle. U.S. Marines encircling the town.
There was a large explosion reported in the early afternoon in the center of this city. Gunfire heard in other places. Obvious clashes between the Marines as they moved in there.
Very clearly, Bill, the Marines are in no hurry. They are not going in guns blazing. They have a specific target list. I understand from very top military officials today that they do have some information on some of the people in those photographs that were taken as the bodies, charred bodies of two of the four contractors killed last Wednesday were dragged through the streets.
They have intelligence on those people. They are going after them. Its going to be a slow process to minimize casualties and risks -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Clancy, from Baghdad, thanks.
Back in this country now, quite a partisan battle in this election year. Democratic Senator Joe Biden from Delaware live with us to talk about it for a moment.
Senator, welcome back here at AMERICAN MORNING. Good morning to you there.
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Nice to be here.
HEMMER: I want to get to everything that's happening in Iraq. First of all, Senator Kennedy's comments from yesterday, just on the record, what did you make of his comments comparing Vietnam and saying it's President Bush's Vietnam today and what is happening in Iraq?
BIDEN: Well, to be honest with you, I didn't hear or read that. I mean, I'm embarrassed to say that. I've been doing so many programs myself the last two days, I just heard reports about it.
There are a lot of people who think that this is moving into a Vietnam circumstance in that there is a popular uprising and we seem to be -- not have a plan. I happen not to think it's Vietnam. And I happen to think this is still redeemable.
I think we can still do this. But I do think the president needs to put forward a plan. We need to get the world in on our side in order to keep the American people resolved with this long fight.
HEMMER: I've heard you for several days talk about the fact that you believe there is no plan set forth for that June 30 handover.
BIDEN: I know there is no plan.
HEMMER: Paul Bremer was with us earlier here on AMERICAN MORNING live from Baghdad. Here is how he answered that question two hours ago.
BIDEN: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BREMER: The plan is to follow a pattern of broad consultations, which have been begun. The secretary-general of the U.N. special representative has been here for five days. He's conducting those consultations, as we are.
And we are determining the size and shape of the interim government. It will be in place well before June 30, and we will pass sovereignty to that interim government on June 30, as scheduled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Senator, "It will be in place well before June 30." Your reaction to Paul Bremer?
BIDEN: My reaction is, that is good to hear. Neither Senator Lugar nor I have been told that until just now by you, number one.
Number two, who is going to replace Bremer? What is the plan? Who is going to be in charge after that? Who is going to be the referee, in effect?
You know there is going to be need for a referee between June 30 and July -- excuse me, January 31, when there is a general election. You know there is going to be more serious problems where jockeying among the various elements within Iraq just like occurred in Afghanistan. And there, the world community was able to say to the Loya Jirga, look, go back and rewrite that.
Who is going to be the one when Sistani and Chalabi cut a deal where they reduce the role of women in Iraq in an interim constitution? Who is going to be the one to say, no, no, no, that is not a good idea? Who is going to do that?
Right now, Bremer does that. Right now, as Bremer said, he is the one deciding what the format of this interim government is.
Is the turning over of sovereignty to this new institution, does that mean that our military answers to that institution? Are they going to invite us to stay? When we stay, are we going to have to employ or deal with whatever judgments they make about the political situation? I don't think so.
And in every other circumstance like this -- I mean, we don't even know who the new ambassador is going to be. Is it going to be a 3,000-person embassy, the largest in the world? I mean, these are questions and we're only 12 weeks out. They made this decision back in November of last year.
HEMMER: When you consider that deadline and when you consider the changing circumstances on the ground today in Iraq, do you concede that this plan has to stay flexible?
BIDEN: Oh, absolutely. No, no, no.
HEMMER: Because it appears to be developing week after week.
BIDEN: It does have to stay flexible because of so many changes. But there has to be somebody in charge. Paul is a great guy. Bremer is a great guy. He really is.
And I'm one of the guys who thinks, for example, we should be putting more forces in Iraq. I've been arguing for that for six months. I'm one of those guys who says we have to stay. I'm supporting the president every way I can to make sure this works.
But I think if you ask anyone in the United States Congress whether or not they know what's going to unfold on June 30th, just literally, who is in charge, what role is the United Nations going to play, is NATO going to commend, what has to be done to get NATO in, I mean, questions that everybody knows have to be answered. And the concern people have is that there seems to continue to be a real debate within the administration as to how to proceed.
For example, are we going back for another resolution through the Security Council in order to how to deal with Iraq after Bremer leaves, which is necessary to get NATO into this? I mean, is that part of the plan? Or is it not?
I mean, I have my views as to what the plan should be. But I don't know what the decision that is being -- the president has made as to how to produce after Bremer leaves.
Look, we're going to read about three dates 10 years from now. We're going to read about 9/11, we're going to read about 3/11, and we're going to read about 6/30, the day that Bremer left and sovereignty was turned over. What is the plan?
HEMMER: Thank you, Senator. As always, good to talk to you. Wish we had more time.
BIDEN: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: Joe Biden out of Delaware -- you got it.
Heidi?
COLLINS: Both President Bush and Senator John Kerry will be on the road this morning. Mr. Bush will be in Arkansas to talk about new job training programs his administration is proposing. And he'll talk more about his plans to help the struggling economy during an appearance at a community college.
Meanwhile, Senator Kerry also talking about revitalizing the economy. The Democratic presidential candidate will be in Ohio, outlining his plan to create 10 million new jobs if he's elected in November.
HEMMER: One of the major battleground states for this election come this fall.
COLLINS: Your home state.
HEMMER: In a moment here, what part of the puzzle can Condoleezza Rice fill in for the commission when she testifies come Thursday morning? Former senator and commission member, Bob Kerry, our guest today on AMERICAN MORNING on that topic.
COLLINS: And, will plans for a California Wal-Mart divide a community? We'll talk about it next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Condoleezza Rice testifies before the panel Thursday morning. A move the White House initially opposed but then agreed to later in the face of public criticism. Earlier today, I sat down with Bob Kerrey, a former Democratic senator and member of that commission, asking him if anything the committee has seen so far has changed his mind about what was known about prior to 9/11.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB KERREY, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I don't think the facts have changed, but what we understand about the facts have certainly changed. I mean, it has in my case.
I don't have anything sort of earth-shattering that I would like to ask Dr. Rice that's come as a consequence of things that I've learned since then. But the more I read documents and the more I understand the depth and the breadth of this conspiracy, yes, I would say that I have -- a different picture seems to have emerged almost weekly as I learn more about it.
HEMMER: Almost weekly, huh?
KERREY: Yes. Because it was a fairly -- look, this is a declaration of war against the United States. It was February 23, 1998. And the only military effort that we had against them was August 20, 1998, after they attacked our two embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and killed over 250 people.
They attacked the Cole on the 12th of October. And in 2000, we intercepted an attack on the Sullivan (ph) earlier that year. We intercepted an attack on LAX. And in December 1999, we intercepted an attack on a hotel that was frequented by Americans in Amman, Jordan.
I mean, they were executing very sophisticated military operations. And the military operation against us on the 11th of September 2001 was very sophisticated; $350,000, and these 19 men were able to defeat utterly every single defensive mechanism the United States of America had up after...
HEMMER: I heard you say the same thing yesterday. Why did the U.S. not declare war on an organization that declared war on the U.S.? Going back to August of 1998, was that the biggest mistake, do you believe?
KERREY: Well, it's a question that I've been asking the people in the Clinton administration, as well as the Bush administration. It's certainly a question I will ask Dr. Rice as well.
My only answer is that it's difficult to do. I mean, it's a new world. We're used to having nations declare war on us, not non-nation state actors. And I suspect that there was an argument that said, look, they're 8,000 miles away, he's very isolated in Afghanistan. What harm could he do?
The problem is we had a demonstration of the harm that he could do us. We had a demonstration of what he could do at the Cole. We had a demonstration of what he could do with Mr. Rasam (ph), who we intercepted coming across the border near Seattle in December, 1999. And we knew that there were al Qaeda cells inside the United States. So, at the very least, if you're not going to declare a war, at least do those things necessary to keep the people safe.
HEMMER: That takes me to my next point. Thomas Friedman wrote a piece in The New York Times back on the 28th of March, just a week ago. He said -- and I'll put it on the screen -- in part, "I did not listen to one second of the 9/11 hearings. I made up my mind about that event a long time ago. It was not a failure of intelligence. It was a failure of imagination."
"We could have had perfect intelligence in all the key pieces of 9/11. But the fact is, we lacked people with evil enough imaginations to put those pieces together."
Does that go to your point also?
KERREY: No, I disagree with that analysis. I wish he had watched the commission hearings, and I hope he reads the report.
This is a very sophisticated military operation against the United States. They had illegal documents to get inside the United States. They were inside the United States, and the INS should have known that they overstayed their welcome here.
They had been identified. We had had the famous Phoenix memo, Moussaoui, and many (UNINTELLIGIBLE) had been arrested. We had a lot of things that had come together to indicate that the United States of America was at risk.
I mean, we were surprised, Bill, by a hijacking on the 11th of September. You can listen to this horrible tape that we heard of a flight attendant. When she called to ground station, they thought she was dealing with a passenger who had gone nuts. They were surprised by a hijacking, let alone a multiple hijacking, let alone a suicide hijacking, all of which should not have been a surprise to people who were defending America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Bob Kerrey earlier today. He is back on the panel Thursday morning. We will bring you special coverage of the hearings. Live coverage of Condoleezza Rice's testimony starts at 9:00 a.m. Easter Time. We will be in D.C. for it -- Heidi.
Boston's Roman Catholic Archdiocese has settled lawsuits by four men who claim they were sexually abused by a priest. The four men say they were abused by Reverend Paul Shanley, seen here. The four will reportedly get more than the maximum, $300,000 awarded in last year's landmark settlement between the church and more than 550 people. Shanley is still awaiting a criminal trial in connection with the abuse claims.
HEMMER: About 20 past the hour. In a moment, can the U.S. get violence in Iraq under control by that June 30 deadline for transfer of power? We'll hear from U.S. Civilian Administrator, Ambassador Paul Bremer. He was our guest today. Back in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Want to check in now with Jack and the Question of the Day that has a lot of people talking.
CAFFERTY: It does, indeed. Senator Kennedy gave a speech to a Washington think tank yesterday and said that Iraq is President Bush's Vietnam. Agree, disagree, is the question.
The letters as follows: Glenn from Export, Pennsylvania: "Yes, Ted Kennedy is right. Bush lied about WMDs, ties between Iraq and al Qaeda and everything else. Now our soldiers are paying the price for Bush's folly. When does impeachment begin?"
Harry in Raleigh, North Carolina: "Why is everyone avoiding the word 'impeachment' when it comes to Bush? Clinton lied about sex, but Bush is killing people. Isn't that just as bad?"
Frank in Boston: "The senator should reflect that Vietnam was his brother's and Johnson's war long before Nixon. And there was no exit strategy. It was Nixon and Kissinger who negotiated and ultimately got us out. How soon he forgets."
Byron in Calgary, Alberta: "Is there a viable exit strategy? Have the American people been liked to? Is there a large problem separating the insurgents from the population? Has the image of Americans around the world reverted to the ugly American? To those of us who answer yes to these and other questions, Iraq looks a lot like Vietnam."
HEMMER: Strong, strong stuff.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
COLLINS: We'll get to more of them, too, before we finish. Thanks so much, Jack.
HEMMER: A break here in a moment. Paul Bremer back with us in a moment here. He says the American public is not getting a true picture of what's happening in Iraq. His reflections in a moment, when we continue after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back. AMERICAN MORNING rolls on at 9:30 here in New York City. Soledad is out. Heidi Collins in with us today and throughout the week here.
Good morning, again.
COLLINS: Yes. Hey, we made it through two days, almost.
HEMMER: Almost.
COLLINS: All right. We're on a roll.
Stories that we're following this morning:
Is security deteriorating in Iraq? Battles being fought today in Fallujah, Baghdad and Nasiriyah. In a few minutes, our conversation with the American in charge, Paul Bremer. Why he thinks the situation is better than it sounds.
HEMMER: Also this half-hour, we'll hear both sides of a dispute in California. It centers around one of those Wal-Mart superstores. The question: does Wal-Mart ignore the law, and when does no mean no? There's a big battle under way and we'll get to in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
COLLINS: We will, indeed.
For now, though, Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has left a mosque in which he was reportedly hiding out. Al-Sadr has taken refuge in the Islamic holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad. That's according to a posting on his Web site. U.S. officials blame al-Sadr for inciting violence against the coalition. An aide to the wanted cleric says the uprising against U.S.-led troops will continue until occupying forces withdraw from populated areas and prisoners are released.
Bill's talk with U.S. administrator for Iraq, Paul Bremer, in just a few minutes.
The American Civil Liberties Union is expected to announce a class action lawsuit challenging the government's no-fly list. The list restricts people from airline travel, labeling them a security threat. But the ACLU claims some people are mistakenly put on that list. The Transportation Security Administration, which compiles the list, has acknowledged some problems, but says it has worked to help people wrongly identified.
In New Jersey, defense lawyers in the manslaughter trial of Jayson Williams have a week to review new evidence. Closing arguments are expected to resume next Monday. The delay came after the defense complained that vital material was withheld by the prosecution, including a report from a weapons expert. The defense says it may seek a mistrial.
And more rain said to be headed for the Mexico-Texas border. A series of flash floods in the area have claimed at least 31 lives now, and authorities say the death toll could rise. Dozens of people are still missing. About 100 homes have been damaged; thousands of people are left living in shelters now.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: From Iraq, the U.S. finds itself in a tense standoff with a young radical Shiite Muslim cleric. Now there's an arrest warrant out for Muqtada al-Sadr, reportedly headed now for the city of Najaf, after leaving the mosque where he's been since the current outbreak of violence started. An al-Sadr spokesman says the spasm of violence that continues today will not stop until U.S. and coalition forces leave the populated areas of Iraq. Al-Sadr also wants a number of prisoners from the coalition released.
Meanwhile, U.S. forces continue Operation Vigilant Resolve in and around Fallujah. Heavy fighting reported there. In the past 72 hours, some 21 U.S. and coalition soldiers have been killed in fighting across the country. Dozens of Iraqis, meanwhile, have died in those same clashes.
All the while, the White House says the deadline for the hand over of power is firm. A bit earlier today, I talked about the situation in Iraq with U.S. Administrator Paul Bremer, asking him why it's necessary to label Muqatada al-Sadr an outlaw this week and pursue his arrest again today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREMER: This is a guy who has a fundamentally inappropriate view of the new Iraq. He believes that in the new Iraq, like in the old Iraq, power should be to the guy who has got the guns. And that's an unacceptable vision for Iraq. He's also guilty, or at least he's accused by an Iraqi judge, of orchestrating a terrible, bloody, heinous murder of one of the most respected religious leaders in Iraq back in April.
HEMMER: Has this attention, Mr. Ambassador, just given rise to his own popularity and, in turn, just given rise to more Shiite violence?
BREMER: No. This is a man who has a view of getting power in Iraq, which has not been changed by the events of the last few days. He's basically tried to take over the country.
He has usurped authority in the holy city of Najaf. He has -- he and his colleagues have occupied police stations, government buildings around the country. It's basically an effort to take over the country. It represents a fundamental challenge to the concept of the rule of law in Iraq, and it will not stand.
HEMMER: There are reports that up to 60 Iraqis may have been killed in Sadr City on Monday night. The U.S. military took casualties as well. What is happening in that city today, sir?
BREMER: It has, so far, been quieter there today. We have retaken the police stations that were taken over by these thugs yesterday. And we have taken over the building that they were illegally occupying out of which they were running their party.
HEMMER: From this side of the world, from Sadr City to Najaf to Fallujah, it appears to be, in many ways, a country in chaos. Can you reassure the American people that the coalition headed up by the Americans today in Iraq do have control of that country?
BREMER: Absolutely. There is no question we have control of the country. Of course, I know if you just report on those few places, it does look chaotic. Actually, if you travel around the country -- and I was up north on two different trips last week --what you find is a bustling economy, people driving around, people opening businesses right and left. Unemployment has dropped to below 10 percent in the three major cities in the country. It was over 60 percent at liberation.
So the economy is moving. Reconstruction projects are going forward all across the country. Some 18,000 have been completed already. The story of the house that doesn't burn down is not much of a story in the news. The story of the house that's on fire is the story you get.
HEMMER: What about the handover come June 30? In this country, there's a lot of criticism from senators, Republicans and Democrats alike. Senators McCain, Biden, Lugar, they say there is no plan put forward yet for the handover come June 30. If there is a plan, sir, what is it?
BREMER: Well, there is a plan. It's rather carefully laid out in two documents. One that was signed by the Governing Council on November 15, another that was included in the interim constitution signed on March 8.
The plan is to follow a pattern of broad consultations, which have been begun. The secretary-general of the U.N. special representative has been here now for five days. He's conducting those consultations, as we are.
And we are determining the size and shape of the interim government. It will be in place well before June 30. And we will pass sovereignty to that interim government on June 30, as scheduled.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Ambassador Paul Bremer live from Baghdad a bit earlier today on AMERICAN MORNING. The president again yesterday reiterating his plan to stick to that deadline for transfer of power on the 30th of June.
A number of opinions on this issue. Already again, today, the former U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix, saying that Iraq is not better off now than before the U.S. invasion of about a year ago -- Heidi.
COLLINS: The upsurge in violence comes as the U.S. military tries to carry out the largest transfer of troops since World War II. And it has some wondering if more troops should be sent to Iraq while the situation remains so tense and volatile.
Joining us now with his thoughts on this is CNN military analyst, retired U.S. Army General David Grange, joining us from our Chicago bureau.
General Grange, nice to see you again.
DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILLITARY ANALYST: Same. COLLINS: Obviously, we know General John Abizaid looking to his staff for options here. Military strategy in this case may suggest, get in, get out, show some resolve, prove that you can do this. Do you think the current level of the military is adequate for now, or could there be a shift of personnel, a rotation, if you will? And will that do the trick?
GRANGE: Well, it's probably enough people within a country right now to handle the situation if they don't pull troops from other areas to surge, like in Fallujah, as an example. So you want that flexibility. And if that flexibility is not there, then more troops will be needed. Or if there is still people coming across the borders, foreign fighters, more troops are needed.
But, you know, I would send more troops there on a temporary basis just for a show of force, to show you can do it and you can do it rapidly, and have those images portrayed on every network. That the commitment is there, the resolve is there to get this mission accomplished, and that there is no sense of withdrawal. And when the going gets tough, then the tough get going on this, and you can put people on the ground rapidly where you need them.
COLLINS: And where do you need them? Where would you place these troops?
GRANGE: You know, it almost doesn't matter. I mean, you could put them on the border between Iraq and Iran. You could put them west of Fallujah in a desert and let them do live fire training and make it a readiness training exercise.
The point is to be able to do it. And then if you need to surge, they're right there and you don't have to uncover other areas within Iraq during this intense period that we're going through right now, which I think is temporary. There will be ups and downs, peaks and valleys, like every operation is.
COLLINS: But just moments ago, General Grange, we heard Paul Bremer saying that he has been out in the field, he's been talking to the commanders. He says no commander has ever asked him for more troops. Your thoughts on that.
GRANGE: Well, those commanders may think in their particular situation they don't need more. But remember, part of my comment is perception. It's influence of people's minds.
In other words, that you could put people in there in order to influence what they're thinking about, hey, we don't want to rise up with the Sadrs and the others that don't want Iraq to change to some type of democratic governance. The U.S. is in there to make sure this thing happens. And do it for those reasons, psychological reasons, not just because one commander in a particular locale says he doesn't need troops.
COLLINS: And you've also mentioned the possibility of influence from Iran. What do you mean by that and all of this violence? GRANGE: Well, Sadr and some of the others are tied to Iran. I think they're being supported by Iran. And I would give a warning to Iran, like I know our government has done in the past, stay out. Don't get involved. The future will not be good for you if you support any kind of militant Shiite uprising.
COLLINS: All right. General David Grange, always nice to see you. Thanks so much for your comments today. Appreciate it.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
HEMMER: Still to come here, why Wal-Mart plans for a new store in a small California town. Now driving a wedge through that town. We'll get that story in a moment here right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Voters in Inglewood, outside Los Angeles, get a chance to decide if a giant Wal-Mart should be built in their neighborhood. Supporters say the retail complex would bring jobs, shopping, a tax base and an economic boom. But opponents say jobs and businesses would be lost and environmental laws ignored.
California State Assemblyman Jerome Horton opposes the construction. And Inglewood mayor, Roosevelt Dorn, supports it there. They are both in Los Angeles now to talk to us this morning.
Mayor Dorn, I'm going to begin with you, if I could. The Inglewood City Council wants Wal-Mart out. You want it in. Why?
MAYOR ROOSEVELT DORN (D), INGLEWOOD, CALIFORNIA: Well, first of all, Wal-Mart is not just Wal-Mart. We're talking about a development, a 60-acre development that will include many outstanding stores: Old Navy, Sam's Club, The Gap, T.J. Maxx. Great restaurants like El Torito, Outback Steakhouse, Chile's, California Pizza Kitchen. Those are great areas for my people to shop.
Not only that; this development will bring from $3 to $5 million a year to -- in sales tax. It will also bring from 1,000 to 1,500 jobs, which the city of Inglewood desperately need. From 16 to 26 years old, the residents there in Inglewood, 25 percent of them are unemployed. That's just totally unacceptable.
COLLINS: Assemblyman Horton, if I may just jump in, in a community where, as we've just been hearing, that a quarter of residents do live below the poverty line, isn't bringing more jobs to this community a good thing?
JEROME HORTON, CALIFORNIA'S STATE ASSEMBLY: Well, the question is whether or not the Inglewood residents have to compromise and whether or not there are other developers. We believe that there are other developers who are more and willing to come to the city of Inglewood.
This issue is far greater than jobs. In fact, in the initiative, there is -- the initiative is silent on whether or not there would be any local hiring. There are no provisions for women and minority contracting. And the initiative itself is very, very flawed in that it exempts itself from the environmental protection acts; it exempts itself from the local building and safety codes.
So this is stripping Inglewood residents of their right to have a voice and say, right to demand that their concerns about traffic and crime and those things are addressed. I personally don't believe that Inglewood needs to compromise. I believe that there are a number of developers who are prepared. And I certainly don't believe we should be making these decisions based on empty promises that are not consummated in the contract.
I mean, Inglewood has been lied to before. We've made promises to the city of Inglewood before. That's why I simply say, why not put it in writing? If these are your promises, just simply put it in writing and guarantee that you will provide these things to the city of Inglewood. Without it being in writing, it's just empty compromises.
COLLINS: Mayor Dorn, why should Wal-Mart be exempt from Inglewood zoning and environmental regulations?
DORN: Wal-Mart is not being exempt. This development is not being exempt. The developer submitted traffic, parking and circulation studies, environmental economic impact and air studies, water and drainage studies, geo technological...
COLLINS: Go ahead and clear your throat.
Assemblyman Horton, are you hearing that -- are you aware of this information that apparently Wal-Mart has gone through in these different testings?
HORTON: Wal-Mart has submitted what they believe to be the concerns of the Inglewood residents, but that does not provide an opportunity for the Inglewood residents and the local elected officials to address and to share with Wal-Mart what their concerns are. We're saying that the initiative bypasses the citizens, it bypasses the local government, and that's the intent of the initiative.
COLLINS: OK.
HORTON This is the first time...
COLLINS: All right. Mayor Dorn, I want to give you the last word, sir, before we let the both of you go.
DORN: OK. First of all, this developer worked with the city planning department for over a year, did everything that the city planners requested. Went far beyond what the code sections required. Our city planning department helped design this plan. It was only when Assemblyman Horton's aide was elected to the city council...
HORTON: Oh, now you're going to talk about my aide. DORN: ... when the vice president and business manager of the union, the grocers union was elected to the council. It was only after that, and they teamed up with the other two councilmembers that are up for election next year. Once that occurred, the -- they told -- specifically told this developer there is nothing you can do that will cause us to approve this development.
COLLINS: Unfortunately...
DORN: So the only choice they had was to go to the people. And that's what they've done.
COLLINS: Unfortunately, gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there. To the both of you this morning, we certainly do appreciate your time.
DORN: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: In a moment here, the surprising number of companies that pay no tax at all. Andy's got the list and the numbers. Back with Andy and Jack right after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: Most e-mails ever on this program to the question: Do you agree with Senator Ted Kennedy that Iraq is President Bush's Vietnam?
Victoria: "I agree with Senator Kennedy on this matter. It was obvious before the war there was no real plan for postwar Iraq. It should be more obvious now that Wolfowitz and company did not foresee how difficult it would be to democratize a region that has a thousand years of history of being the way it is."
Debbie in Richmond: "Sounds like Kennedy nailed it on the head. The same thing that many other nonpartisan analysts have been saying for almost a year. The war is turning into a huge mess, one that's dragging us down in every respect, not to mention killing our young. I wonder if those in power who are conducting this war would be quite so enthusiastic to put their own children there."
And Tommy in Dallas: "Kennedy is right. The wheels are coming off and the light at the end of the tunnel is, indeed, a train. Wolfowitz looking for his own spider hole about now."
HEMMER: That comment sparked a lot of interest, huh?
COLLINS: Yes. The most ever. Amazing.
HEMMER: It certainly did.
Thank you, Jack.
Next hour here on CNN, are more troops headed for Iraq? The latest planning from the Pentagon. Daryn Kagan has that on "CNN LIVE" today. We are back in a moment here. The final word on AMERICAN MORNING right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Busy morning here on AMERICAN MORNING. See you again tomorrow morning, same time, same place here on AMERICAN MORNING.
CAFFERTY: Do we have a choice?
HEMMER: Apparently not.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: No, you don't have a choice. Show up.
HEMMER: Here is Daryn Kagan at the CNN Center.
Aired April 6, 2004 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. U.S. troops take on a radical cleric and his militia in Baghdad. Many Iraqis die in that fight last night. Also, the question of chaos.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMB. PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: There is no question we have control of the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Paul Bremer assuring Americans that the tables have not turned. But can he bring in the man he calls the "outlaw" who he sees as threatening stability?
And waiting for the right moment around Fallujah. U.S. Marines struggle to put down months of insurgency.
All ahead this hour on a busy AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Nine o'clock in New York. Welcome back, and good morning. I'm Bill Hemmer.
Soledad continues her vacation this week. Heidi Collins with us today in New York.
Good morning, again.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, again.
Also this morning, we are looking ahead to Thursday's testimony in the 9/11 hearings from National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. We've been talking about it for days now. And her conversation with Bob Kerry, a former Democratic Senator and member of the commission. What questions will he ask, and what was said in previous private testimony?
HEMMER: Also this hour, Wal-Mart playing hardball with local governments, they say, when it comes to expansion of stores. That's what the opponents contend.
When the company does not get the answer it wants, does it just ignore the rules? We'll talk to some of the people right now at the center of a large dispute in California. We'll get both sides on that issue coming up this morning here.
COLLINS: Jack Cafferty, now a busy morning for you.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Senator Kennedy thinks that Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam. Agree? Disagree? AM@CNN.com
HEMMER: Are we on track for a record for e-mails?
CAFFERTY: I don't know. Maybe. Lots of response.
HEMMER: Yes?
CAFFERTY: Yes. Way over a thousand already.
HEMMER: Wow.
COLLINS: All right. We'll get to them a little bit later on. Thanks, Jack.
To the news now.
The ACLU is filing a class action lawsuit, challenging the government's list of people barred from flying on commercial airlines. The ACLU claims that some people are mistakenly put on the list. The Transportation Security Administration, which compiled the list, has acknowledged some problems, but says it has worked to help people wrongly identified.
Three U.S. soldiers are under observation for possible uranium contamination. A military spokeswoman says up to six other soldiers have been examined now at Fort Dix, New Jersey. A New York newspaper requested medical tests for nine National Guard members who said the U.S Army refused to examine them. The soldiers complained of illness after reportedly being exposed to depleted uranium in Iraq.
Police in Connecticut arrested about a dozen people arrested after some March madness fans from UConn got out of control in the streets there. The celebration of the team's second NCAA title in six seasons got rowdy, and some fans started fires and overturned cars. University police said there were no serious injuries.
The Huskies had a pretty easy game, though, with some big leads, as they beat Georgia Tech 82-73. And the UConn women's team plays in the title game tonight. Big day there.
Flood warnings in effect in parts of Texas. At least five people died after a bridge had washed out near Pecos in New Mexico. Three days of rain caused flooding in Eddy County, which has been declared a disaster area now. There is still chance of more rain in parts of New Mexico today, unfortunately.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: Want to get back to Iraq this hour. Radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has reportedly left a mosque where he's been holed up and headed now to the city of Najaf. He has issued many demands, saying that the current uprising by his followers will continue until U.S. and coalition forces pull out of populated areas in Iraq.
All that coming now as the fighting continues in a number of parts of Iraq. And Jim Clancy watching the movements this hour for us in Baghdad.
Jim, what do you have?
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, let's talk, first, about Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shia cleric who has a considerable following, although he is overshadowed by other leaders in Iraq. He has moved to Najaf, as you noted. He may be inside the Imam Ali Mosque, one of the holiest shrines in all of Shia Islam right now. Certainly not someplace that anyone is going to go after him to try to serve an arrest warrant.
But, at the same time, issuing a list of demands, saying that his intifada, his uprising against the U.S. occupation is going to continue with his army so long as the U.S. continues to be inside populated areas. Until and unless the U.S. releases all of the prisoners that it is holding, all the Iraqis that it is holding.
These demands coming from Muqtada al-Sadr. Not likely to be followed by the U.S. But after a night of heavy fighting that saw scores of Iraqi supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr killed, no U.S. troops, but still something that rattled Sadr City, the predominantly Shia neighborhood here in Baghdad. A lot of people hoping that some way or another this can be diffused -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim, let's talk about the clashes. And there are many: Sadr City and Baghdad, we mentioned, Fallujah, with the Marines surrounding that area. What updates are you getting from the coalition on that?
CLANCY: Well, it would seem overnight in Sadr City here in Baghdad you could hear the gunfire, heavy machine gunfire. That is a situation where the U.S. appears to have the upper hand. What is not good the number of casualties.
More than a hundred Iraqis wounded. As we noted, scores of them killed.
Then you go to Fallujah, a very different situation. Sunni Muslim stronghold in the so-called Sunni Triangle. U.S. Marines encircling the town.
There was a large explosion reported in the early afternoon in the center of this city. Gunfire heard in other places. Obvious clashes between the Marines as they moved in there.
Very clearly, Bill, the Marines are in no hurry. They are not going in guns blazing. They have a specific target list. I understand from very top military officials today that they do have some information on some of the people in those photographs that were taken as the bodies, charred bodies of two of the four contractors killed last Wednesday were dragged through the streets.
They have intelligence on those people. They are going after them. Its going to be a slow process to minimize casualties and risks -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Clancy, from Baghdad, thanks.
Back in this country now, quite a partisan battle in this election year. Democratic Senator Joe Biden from Delaware live with us to talk about it for a moment.
Senator, welcome back here at AMERICAN MORNING. Good morning to you there.
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Nice to be here.
HEMMER: I want to get to everything that's happening in Iraq. First of all, Senator Kennedy's comments from yesterday, just on the record, what did you make of his comments comparing Vietnam and saying it's President Bush's Vietnam today and what is happening in Iraq?
BIDEN: Well, to be honest with you, I didn't hear or read that. I mean, I'm embarrassed to say that. I've been doing so many programs myself the last two days, I just heard reports about it.
There are a lot of people who think that this is moving into a Vietnam circumstance in that there is a popular uprising and we seem to be -- not have a plan. I happen not to think it's Vietnam. And I happen to think this is still redeemable.
I think we can still do this. But I do think the president needs to put forward a plan. We need to get the world in on our side in order to keep the American people resolved with this long fight.
HEMMER: I've heard you for several days talk about the fact that you believe there is no plan set forth for that June 30 handover.
BIDEN: I know there is no plan.
HEMMER: Paul Bremer was with us earlier here on AMERICAN MORNING live from Baghdad. Here is how he answered that question two hours ago.
BIDEN: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BREMER: The plan is to follow a pattern of broad consultations, which have been begun. The secretary-general of the U.N. special representative has been here for five days. He's conducting those consultations, as we are.
And we are determining the size and shape of the interim government. It will be in place well before June 30, and we will pass sovereignty to that interim government on June 30, as scheduled.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Senator, "It will be in place well before June 30." Your reaction to Paul Bremer?
BIDEN: My reaction is, that is good to hear. Neither Senator Lugar nor I have been told that until just now by you, number one.
Number two, who is going to replace Bremer? What is the plan? Who is going to be in charge after that? Who is going to be the referee, in effect?
You know there is going to be need for a referee between June 30 and July -- excuse me, January 31, when there is a general election. You know there is going to be more serious problems where jockeying among the various elements within Iraq just like occurred in Afghanistan. And there, the world community was able to say to the Loya Jirga, look, go back and rewrite that.
Who is going to be the one when Sistani and Chalabi cut a deal where they reduce the role of women in Iraq in an interim constitution? Who is going to be the one to say, no, no, no, that is not a good idea? Who is going to do that?
Right now, Bremer does that. Right now, as Bremer said, he is the one deciding what the format of this interim government is.
Is the turning over of sovereignty to this new institution, does that mean that our military answers to that institution? Are they going to invite us to stay? When we stay, are we going to have to employ or deal with whatever judgments they make about the political situation? I don't think so.
And in every other circumstance like this -- I mean, we don't even know who the new ambassador is going to be. Is it going to be a 3,000-person embassy, the largest in the world? I mean, these are questions and we're only 12 weeks out. They made this decision back in November of last year.
HEMMER: When you consider that deadline and when you consider the changing circumstances on the ground today in Iraq, do you concede that this plan has to stay flexible?
BIDEN: Oh, absolutely. No, no, no.
HEMMER: Because it appears to be developing week after week.
BIDEN: It does have to stay flexible because of so many changes. But there has to be somebody in charge. Paul is a great guy. Bremer is a great guy. He really is.
And I'm one of the guys who thinks, for example, we should be putting more forces in Iraq. I've been arguing for that for six months. I'm one of those guys who says we have to stay. I'm supporting the president every way I can to make sure this works.
But I think if you ask anyone in the United States Congress whether or not they know what's going to unfold on June 30th, just literally, who is in charge, what role is the United Nations going to play, is NATO going to commend, what has to be done to get NATO in, I mean, questions that everybody knows have to be answered. And the concern people have is that there seems to continue to be a real debate within the administration as to how to proceed.
For example, are we going back for another resolution through the Security Council in order to how to deal with Iraq after Bremer leaves, which is necessary to get NATO into this? I mean, is that part of the plan? Or is it not?
I mean, I have my views as to what the plan should be. But I don't know what the decision that is being -- the president has made as to how to produce after Bremer leaves.
Look, we're going to read about three dates 10 years from now. We're going to read about 9/11, we're going to read about 3/11, and we're going to read about 6/30, the day that Bremer left and sovereignty was turned over. What is the plan?
HEMMER: Thank you, Senator. As always, good to talk to you. Wish we had more time.
BIDEN: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: Joe Biden out of Delaware -- you got it.
Heidi?
COLLINS: Both President Bush and Senator John Kerry will be on the road this morning. Mr. Bush will be in Arkansas to talk about new job training programs his administration is proposing. And he'll talk more about his plans to help the struggling economy during an appearance at a community college.
Meanwhile, Senator Kerry also talking about revitalizing the economy. The Democratic presidential candidate will be in Ohio, outlining his plan to create 10 million new jobs if he's elected in November.
HEMMER: One of the major battleground states for this election come this fall.
COLLINS: Your home state.
HEMMER: In a moment here, what part of the puzzle can Condoleezza Rice fill in for the commission when she testifies come Thursday morning? Former senator and commission member, Bob Kerry, our guest today on AMERICAN MORNING on that topic.
COLLINS: And, will plans for a California Wal-Mart divide a community? We'll talk about it next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Condoleezza Rice testifies before the panel Thursday morning. A move the White House initially opposed but then agreed to later in the face of public criticism. Earlier today, I sat down with Bob Kerrey, a former Democratic senator and member of that commission, asking him if anything the committee has seen so far has changed his mind about what was known about prior to 9/11.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB KERREY, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: I don't think the facts have changed, but what we understand about the facts have certainly changed. I mean, it has in my case.
I don't have anything sort of earth-shattering that I would like to ask Dr. Rice that's come as a consequence of things that I've learned since then. But the more I read documents and the more I understand the depth and the breadth of this conspiracy, yes, I would say that I have -- a different picture seems to have emerged almost weekly as I learn more about it.
HEMMER: Almost weekly, huh?
KERREY: Yes. Because it was a fairly -- look, this is a declaration of war against the United States. It was February 23, 1998. And the only military effort that we had against them was August 20, 1998, after they attacked our two embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and killed over 250 people.
They attacked the Cole on the 12th of October. And in 2000, we intercepted an attack on the Sullivan (ph) earlier that year. We intercepted an attack on LAX. And in December 1999, we intercepted an attack on a hotel that was frequented by Americans in Amman, Jordan.
I mean, they were executing very sophisticated military operations. And the military operation against us on the 11th of September 2001 was very sophisticated; $350,000, and these 19 men were able to defeat utterly every single defensive mechanism the United States of America had up after...
HEMMER: I heard you say the same thing yesterday. Why did the U.S. not declare war on an organization that declared war on the U.S.? Going back to August of 1998, was that the biggest mistake, do you believe?
KERREY: Well, it's a question that I've been asking the people in the Clinton administration, as well as the Bush administration. It's certainly a question I will ask Dr. Rice as well.
My only answer is that it's difficult to do. I mean, it's a new world. We're used to having nations declare war on us, not non-nation state actors. And I suspect that there was an argument that said, look, they're 8,000 miles away, he's very isolated in Afghanistan. What harm could he do?
The problem is we had a demonstration of the harm that he could do us. We had a demonstration of what he could do at the Cole. We had a demonstration of what he could do with Mr. Rasam (ph), who we intercepted coming across the border near Seattle in December, 1999. And we knew that there were al Qaeda cells inside the United States. So, at the very least, if you're not going to declare a war, at least do those things necessary to keep the people safe.
HEMMER: That takes me to my next point. Thomas Friedman wrote a piece in The New York Times back on the 28th of March, just a week ago. He said -- and I'll put it on the screen -- in part, "I did not listen to one second of the 9/11 hearings. I made up my mind about that event a long time ago. It was not a failure of intelligence. It was a failure of imagination."
"We could have had perfect intelligence in all the key pieces of 9/11. But the fact is, we lacked people with evil enough imaginations to put those pieces together."
Does that go to your point also?
KERREY: No, I disagree with that analysis. I wish he had watched the commission hearings, and I hope he reads the report.
This is a very sophisticated military operation against the United States. They had illegal documents to get inside the United States. They were inside the United States, and the INS should have known that they overstayed their welcome here.
They had been identified. We had had the famous Phoenix memo, Moussaoui, and many (UNINTELLIGIBLE) had been arrested. We had a lot of things that had come together to indicate that the United States of America was at risk.
I mean, we were surprised, Bill, by a hijacking on the 11th of September. You can listen to this horrible tape that we heard of a flight attendant. When she called to ground station, they thought she was dealing with a passenger who had gone nuts. They were surprised by a hijacking, let alone a multiple hijacking, let alone a suicide hijacking, all of which should not have been a surprise to people who were defending America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Bob Kerrey earlier today. He is back on the panel Thursday morning. We will bring you special coverage of the hearings. Live coverage of Condoleezza Rice's testimony starts at 9:00 a.m. Easter Time. We will be in D.C. for it -- Heidi.
Boston's Roman Catholic Archdiocese has settled lawsuits by four men who claim they were sexually abused by a priest. The four men say they were abused by Reverend Paul Shanley, seen here. The four will reportedly get more than the maximum, $300,000 awarded in last year's landmark settlement between the church and more than 550 people. Shanley is still awaiting a criminal trial in connection with the abuse claims.
HEMMER: About 20 past the hour. In a moment, can the U.S. get violence in Iraq under control by that June 30 deadline for transfer of power? We'll hear from U.S. Civilian Administrator, Ambassador Paul Bremer. He was our guest today. Back in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Want to check in now with Jack and the Question of the Day that has a lot of people talking.
CAFFERTY: It does, indeed. Senator Kennedy gave a speech to a Washington think tank yesterday and said that Iraq is President Bush's Vietnam. Agree, disagree, is the question.
The letters as follows: Glenn from Export, Pennsylvania: "Yes, Ted Kennedy is right. Bush lied about WMDs, ties between Iraq and al Qaeda and everything else. Now our soldiers are paying the price for Bush's folly. When does impeachment begin?"
Harry in Raleigh, North Carolina: "Why is everyone avoiding the word 'impeachment' when it comes to Bush? Clinton lied about sex, but Bush is killing people. Isn't that just as bad?"
Frank in Boston: "The senator should reflect that Vietnam was his brother's and Johnson's war long before Nixon. And there was no exit strategy. It was Nixon and Kissinger who negotiated and ultimately got us out. How soon he forgets."
Byron in Calgary, Alberta: "Is there a viable exit strategy? Have the American people been liked to? Is there a large problem separating the insurgents from the population? Has the image of Americans around the world reverted to the ugly American? To those of us who answer yes to these and other questions, Iraq looks a lot like Vietnam."
HEMMER: Strong, strong stuff.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
COLLINS: We'll get to more of them, too, before we finish. Thanks so much, Jack.
HEMMER: A break here in a moment. Paul Bremer back with us in a moment here. He says the American public is not getting a true picture of what's happening in Iraq. His reflections in a moment, when we continue after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back. AMERICAN MORNING rolls on at 9:30 here in New York City. Soledad is out. Heidi Collins in with us today and throughout the week here.
Good morning, again.
COLLINS: Yes. Hey, we made it through two days, almost.
HEMMER: Almost.
COLLINS: All right. We're on a roll.
Stories that we're following this morning:
Is security deteriorating in Iraq? Battles being fought today in Fallujah, Baghdad and Nasiriyah. In a few minutes, our conversation with the American in charge, Paul Bremer. Why he thinks the situation is better than it sounds.
HEMMER: Also this half-hour, we'll hear both sides of a dispute in California. It centers around one of those Wal-Mart superstores. The question: does Wal-Mart ignore the law, and when does no mean no? There's a big battle under way and we'll get to in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
COLLINS: We will, indeed.
For now, though, Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has left a mosque in which he was reportedly hiding out. Al-Sadr has taken refuge in the Islamic holy city of Najaf, south of Baghdad. That's according to a posting on his Web site. U.S. officials blame al-Sadr for inciting violence against the coalition. An aide to the wanted cleric says the uprising against U.S.-led troops will continue until occupying forces withdraw from populated areas and prisoners are released.
Bill's talk with U.S. administrator for Iraq, Paul Bremer, in just a few minutes.
The American Civil Liberties Union is expected to announce a class action lawsuit challenging the government's no-fly list. The list restricts people from airline travel, labeling them a security threat. But the ACLU claims some people are mistakenly put on that list. The Transportation Security Administration, which compiles the list, has acknowledged some problems, but says it has worked to help people wrongly identified.
In New Jersey, defense lawyers in the manslaughter trial of Jayson Williams have a week to review new evidence. Closing arguments are expected to resume next Monday. The delay came after the defense complained that vital material was withheld by the prosecution, including a report from a weapons expert. The defense says it may seek a mistrial.
And more rain said to be headed for the Mexico-Texas border. A series of flash floods in the area have claimed at least 31 lives now, and authorities say the death toll could rise. Dozens of people are still missing. About 100 homes have been damaged; thousands of people are left living in shelters now.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: From Iraq, the U.S. finds itself in a tense standoff with a young radical Shiite Muslim cleric. Now there's an arrest warrant out for Muqtada al-Sadr, reportedly headed now for the city of Najaf, after leaving the mosque where he's been since the current outbreak of violence started. An al-Sadr spokesman says the spasm of violence that continues today will not stop until U.S. and coalition forces leave the populated areas of Iraq. Al-Sadr also wants a number of prisoners from the coalition released.
Meanwhile, U.S. forces continue Operation Vigilant Resolve in and around Fallujah. Heavy fighting reported there. In the past 72 hours, some 21 U.S. and coalition soldiers have been killed in fighting across the country. Dozens of Iraqis, meanwhile, have died in those same clashes.
All the while, the White House says the deadline for the hand over of power is firm. A bit earlier today, I talked about the situation in Iraq with U.S. Administrator Paul Bremer, asking him why it's necessary to label Muqatada al-Sadr an outlaw this week and pursue his arrest again today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREMER: This is a guy who has a fundamentally inappropriate view of the new Iraq. He believes that in the new Iraq, like in the old Iraq, power should be to the guy who has got the guns. And that's an unacceptable vision for Iraq. He's also guilty, or at least he's accused by an Iraqi judge, of orchestrating a terrible, bloody, heinous murder of one of the most respected religious leaders in Iraq back in April.
HEMMER: Has this attention, Mr. Ambassador, just given rise to his own popularity and, in turn, just given rise to more Shiite violence?
BREMER: No. This is a man who has a view of getting power in Iraq, which has not been changed by the events of the last few days. He's basically tried to take over the country.
He has usurped authority in the holy city of Najaf. He has -- he and his colleagues have occupied police stations, government buildings around the country. It's basically an effort to take over the country. It represents a fundamental challenge to the concept of the rule of law in Iraq, and it will not stand.
HEMMER: There are reports that up to 60 Iraqis may have been killed in Sadr City on Monday night. The U.S. military took casualties as well. What is happening in that city today, sir?
BREMER: It has, so far, been quieter there today. We have retaken the police stations that were taken over by these thugs yesterday. And we have taken over the building that they were illegally occupying out of which they were running their party.
HEMMER: From this side of the world, from Sadr City to Najaf to Fallujah, it appears to be, in many ways, a country in chaos. Can you reassure the American people that the coalition headed up by the Americans today in Iraq do have control of that country?
BREMER: Absolutely. There is no question we have control of the country. Of course, I know if you just report on those few places, it does look chaotic. Actually, if you travel around the country -- and I was up north on two different trips last week --what you find is a bustling economy, people driving around, people opening businesses right and left. Unemployment has dropped to below 10 percent in the three major cities in the country. It was over 60 percent at liberation.
So the economy is moving. Reconstruction projects are going forward all across the country. Some 18,000 have been completed already. The story of the house that doesn't burn down is not much of a story in the news. The story of the house that's on fire is the story you get.
HEMMER: What about the handover come June 30? In this country, there's a lot of criticism from senators, Republicans and Democrats alike. Senators McCain, Biden, Lugar, they say there is no plan put forward yet for the handover come June 30. If there is a plan, sir, what is it?
BREMER: Well, there is a plan. It's rather carefully laid out in two documents. One that was signed by the Governing Council on November 15, another that was included in the interim constitution signed on March 8.
The plan is to follow a pattern of broad consultations, which have been begun. The secretary-general of the U.N. special representative has been here now for five days. He's conducting those consultations, as we are.
And we are determining the size and shape of the interim government. It will be in place well before June 30. And we will pass sovereignty to that interim government on June 30, as scheduled.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Ambassador Paul Bremer live from Baghdad a bit earlier today on AMERICAN MORNING. The president again yesterday reiterating his plan to stick to that deadline for transfer of power on the 30th of June.
A number of opinions on this issue. Already again, today, the former U.N. weapons inspector, Hans Blix, saying that Iraq is not better off now than before the U.S. invasion of about a year ago -- Heidi.
COLLINS: The upsurge in violence comes as the U.S. military tries to carry out the largest transfer of troops since World War II. And it has some wondering if more troops should be sent to Iraq while the situation remains so tense and volatile.
Joining us now with his thoughts on this is CNN military analyst, retired U.S. Army General David Grange, joining us from our Chicago bureau.
General Grange, nice to see you again.
DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILLITARY ANALYST: Same. COLLINS: Obviously, we know General John Abizaid looking to his staff for options here. Military strategy in this case may suggest, get in, get out, show some resolve, prove that you can do this. Do you think the current level of the military is adequate for now, or could there be a shift of personnel, a rotation, if you will? And will that do the trick?
GRANGE: Well, it's probably enough people within a country right now to handle the situation if they don't pull troops from other areas to surge, like in Fallujah, as an example. So you want that flexibility. And if that flexibility is not there, then more troops will be needed. Or if there is still people coming across the borders, foreign fighters, more troops are needed.
But, you know, I would send more troops there on a temporary basis just for a show of force, to show you can do it and you can do it rapidly, and have those images portrayed on every network. That the commitment is there, the resolve is there to get this mission accomplished, and that there is no sense of withdrawal. And when the going gets tough, then the tough get going on this, and you can put people on the ground rapidly where you need them.
COLLINS: And where do you need them? Where would you place these troops?
GRANGE: You know, it almost doesn't matter. I mean, you could put them on the border between Iraq and Iran. You could put them west of Fallujah in a desert and let them do live fire training and make it a readiness training exercise.
The point is to be able to do it. And then if you need to surge, they're right there and you don't have to uncover other areas within Iraq during this intense period that we're going through right now, which I think is temporary. There will be ups and downs, peaks and valleys, like every operation is.
COLLINS: But just moments ago, General Grange, we heard Paul Bremer saying that he has been out in the field, he's been talking to the commanders. He says no commander has ever asked him for more troops. Your thoughts on that.
GRANGE: Well, those commanders may think in their particular situation they don't need more. But remember, part of my comment is perception. It's influence of people's minds.
In other words, that you could put people in there in order to influence what they're thinking about, hey, we don't want to rise up with the Sadrs and the others that don't want Iraq to change to some type of democratic governance. The U.S. is in there to make sure this thing happens. And do it for those reasons, psychological reasons, not just because one commander in a particular locale says he doesn't need troops.
COLLINS: And you've also mentioned the possibility of influence from Iran. What do you mean by that and all of this violence? GRANGE: Well, Sadr and some of the others are tied to Iran. I think they're being supported by Iran. And I would give a warning to Iran, like I know our government has done in the past, stay out. Don't get involved. The future will not be good for you if you support any kind of militant Shiite uprising.
COLLINS: All right. General David Grange, always nice to see you. Thanks so much for your comments today. Appreciate it.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
HEMMER: Still to come here, why Wal-Mart plans for a new store in a small California town. Now driving a wedge through that town. We'll get that story in a moment here right after this.
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COLLINS: Voters in Inglewood, outside Los Angeles, get a chance to decide if a giant Wal-Mart should be built in their neighborhood. Supporters say the retail complex would bring jobs, shopping, a tax base and an economic boom. But opponents say jobs and businesses would be lost and environmental laws ignored.
California State Assemblyman Jerome Horton opposes the construction. And Inglewood mayor, Roosevelt Dorn, supports it there. They are both in Los Angeles now to talk to us this morning.
Mayor Dorn, I'm going to begin with you, if I could. The Inglewood City Council wants Wal-Mart out. You want it in. Why?
MAYOR ROOSEVELT DORN (D), INGLEWOOD, CALIFORNIA: Well, first of all, Wal-Mart is not just Wal-Mart. We're talking about a development, a 60-acre development that will include many outstanding stores: Old Navy, Sam's Club, The Gap, T.J. Maxx. Great restaurants like El Torito, Outback Steakhouse, Chile's, California Pizza Kitchen. Those are great areas for my people to shop.
Not only that; this development will bring from $3 to $5 million a year to -- in sales tax. It will also bring from 1,000 to 1,500 jobs, which the city of Inglewood desperately need. From 16 to 26 years old, the residents there in Inglewood, 25 percent of them are unemployed. That's just totally unacceptable.
COLLINS: Assemblyman Horton, if I may just jump in, in a community where, as we've just been hearing, that a quarter of residents do live below the poverty line, isn't bringing more jobs to this community a good thing?
JEROME HORTON, CALIFORNIA'S STATE ASSEMBLY: Well, the question is whether or not the Inglewood residents have to compromise and whether or not there are other developers. We believe that there are other developers who are more and willing to come to the city of Inglewood.
This issue is far greater than jobs. In fact, in the initiative, there is -- the initiative is silent on whether or not there would be any local hiring. There are no provisions for women and minority contracting. And the initiative itself is very, very flawed in that it exempts itself from the environmental protection acts; it exempts itself from the local building and safety codes.
So this is stripping Inglewood residents of their right to have a voice and say, right to demand that their concerns about traffic and crime and those things are addressed. I personally don't believe that Inglewood needs to compromise. I believe that there are a number of developers who are prepared. And I certainly don't believe we should be making these decisions based on empty promises that are not consummated in the contract.
I mean, Inglewood has been lied to before. We've made promises to the city of Inglewood before. That's why I simply say, why not put it in writing? If these are your promises, just simply put it in writing and guarantee that you will provide these things to the city of Inglewood. Without it being in writing, it's just empty compromises.
COLLINS: Mayor Dorn, why should Wal-Mart be exempt from Inglewood zoning and environmental regulations?
DORN: Wal-Mart is not being exempt. This development is not being exempt. The developer submitted traffic, parking and circulation studies, environmental economic impact and air studies, water and drainage studies, geo technological...
COLLINS: Go ahead and clear your throat.
Assemblyman Horton, are you hearing that -- are you aware of this information that apparently Wal-Mart has gone through in these different testings?
HORTON: Wal-Mart has submitted what they believe to be the concerns of the Inglewood residents, but that does not provide an opportunity for the Inglewood residents and the local elected officials to address and to share with Wal-Mart what their concerns are. We're saying that the initiative bypasses the citizens, it bypasses the local government, and that's the intent of the initiative.
COLLINS: OK.
HORTON This is the first time...
COLLINS: All right. Mayor Dorn, I want to give you the last word, sir, before we let the both of you go.
DORN: OK. First of all, this developer worked with the city planning department for over a year, did everything that the city planners requested. Went far beyond what the code sections required. Our city planning department helped design this plan. It was only when Assemblyman Horton's aide was elected to the city council...
HORTON: Oh, now you're going to talk about my aide. DORN: ... when the vice president and business manager of the union, the grocers union was elected to the council. It was only after that, and they teamed up with the other two councilmembers that are up for election next year. Once that occurred, the -- they told -- specifically told this developer there is nothing you can do that will cause us to approve this development.
COLLINS: Unfortunately...
DORN: So the only choice they had was to go to the people. And that's what they've done.
COLLINS: Unfortunately, gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there. To the both of you this morning, we certainly do appreciate your time.
DORN: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: In a moment here, the surprising number of companies that pay no tax at all. Andy's got the list and the numbers. Back with Andy and Jack right after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: Most e-mails ever on this program to the question: Do you agree with Senator Ted Kennedy that Iraq is President Bush's Vietnam?
Victoria: "I agree with Senator Kennedy on this matter. It was obvious before the war there was no real plan for postwar Iraq. It should be more obvious now that Wolfowitz and company did not foresee how difficult it would be to democratize a region that has a thousand years of history of being the way it is."
Debbie in Richmond: "Sounds like Kennedy nailed it on the head. The same thing that many other nonpartisan analysts have been saying for almost a year. The war is turning into a huge mess, one that's dragging us down in every respect, not to mention killing our young. I wonder if those in power who are conducting this war would be quite so enthusiastic to put their own children there."
And Tommy in Dallas: "Kennedy is right. The wheels are coming off and the light at the end of the tunnel is, indeed, a train. Wolfowitz looking for his own spider hole about now."
HEMMER: That comment sparked a lot of interest, huh?
COLLINS: Yes. The most ever. Amazing.
HEMMER: It certainly did.
Thank you, Jack.
Next hour here on CNN, are more troops headed for Iraq? The latest planning from the Pentagon. Daryn Kagan has that on "CNN LIVE" today. We are back in a moment here. The final word on AMERICAN MORNING right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Busy morning here on AMERICAN MORNING. See you again tomorrow morning, same time, same place here on AMERICAN MORNING.
CAFFERTY: Do we have a choice?
HEMMER: Apparently not.
(CROSSTALK)
COLLINS: No, you don't have a choice. Show up.
HEMMER: Here is Daryn Kagan at the CNN Center.
