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American Morning
Iraqis Dying by Dozens in Fallujah
Aired April 07, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Iraqis dying by the dozens on Fallujah -- a battle between Marines and the insurgents ripping through a rebel stronghold today.
The first pictures from Ramadi today. Twelve Marines died there yesterday in a seven hour battle.
The radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr now calling on Shiites across the country to join his movement. Will they make that decision? Will the uprising grow?
All ahead this hour, as AMERICAN MORNING continues now.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Welcome back.
Eight o'clock her in New York.
Soledad is off. Heidi Collins is not. She's working with us again today in here.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: I love how you say that.
HEMMER: I love to have you here, though.
COLLINS: Thank you.
HEMMER: Good morning to you.
I hope Soledad is having a good time off, too, with her family.
COLLINS: You and me, too, yes.
HEMMER: Also this hour, a lot to cover on Iraq today. We'll be looking at the testimony, in addition to that, for tomorrow and Condoleezza Rice and that Commission on Capitol Hill. Senator Chuck Hagel this hour joining us in a few moments, talking about his impressions, not only what he expects from Condoleezza Rice tomorrow, but also his impressions on what he's hearing today regarding the battles in Iraq. Stay tuned for that.
COLLINS: Also, we're talking about the no fly list the government keeps to keep terrorists off airplanes. Now there's a lawsuit challenging it. We'll talk to some of the players on both sides of that suit.
HEMMER: All right, Jack Cafferty, good morning to you.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
Coming up in the Cafferty File, things people say, including why former President Bill Clinton is comparing the Bush administration to a bunch of teenagers.
And we'll find out how Janet Jackson keeps up with the news. Here's a hint -- she doesn't.
HEMMER: Oh, yes?
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: Thanks, Jack.
We'll get to that in a moment.
COLLINS: Shocking.
HEMMER: We want to get to Iraq again straight away this hour.
U.S. and coalition forces locked in a battle now with insurgents in a number of towns. In the last hour, we received new pictures, new videotape from bullets that have flared in the central Iraqi towns of Ramadi and Fallujah. That is in the Sunni Triangle.
Straight to Baghdad and Jim Clancy -- and, Jim, as we go to you, we're going to roll some pictures and the latest videotape from Fallujah.
What are you hearing from that part of Iraq?
Hello again.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, as you note there, a battle in earnest going on for that city. We heard at one point U.S. warplanes overhead. Just about everything has been brought into this battle -- helicopter gunships, the AC-130 gunships, as well as on the ground, Bradley fighting vehicles and M1-A1 Abrams tanks.
We understand one Marine has died from wounds he suffered. Another one, at least one other has been wounded. According to reports on the scene, there are dozens and dozens of Iraqi casualties, including some 25 people killed in a missile strike overnight that hit a civilian neighborhood.
The hospital has been moved downtown. It's been set up as a field hospital. All the shops are closed. Appeals for blood going out from the mosques.
It is a desperate situation for many of the Iraqis as this battle goes forward. They're wondering how long it's going to take to finish -- Bill. HEMMER: Jim, that is Fallujah.
What about Ramadi? Are you hearing much today on that?
CLANCY: Well, we're getting a briefing from the general in charge of all of that. Here's telling reporters about the situation. Yes, 12 Marines were killed. There was some video that came in of the aftermath of all of that. Twelve Marines died, but according to him, the enemy also paid a price. And this surprising development -- he says some Syrian fighters were captured there in the battle that extended for three hours and more than one and a half kilometers on one front.
So it was a battle, you know, it was something of a surprise about the tactics -- head on instead of car bombs, roadside bombs or ambushes. This head on attack, though, failed to take the governor's office and some other key Marine installations that were there. The U.S. Marines firmly in control of the city -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim, let me move to you, a little closer to where you are in Baghdad, Sadr City.
What's the update there?
CLANCY: Sadr City, there are some reports, one Marine was -- excuse me. One 1st Armored Division soldier was killed today in an ambush with a rocket propelled grenade. There are tens of casualties, of course, from the fighting in previous days. It was basically calm there. U.S. troops have taken up positions outside police stations, where they are preventing the Muqtada al-Sadr's so-called Mahdi Army, his private militia, from taking control of those key posts, something that he's wanted to do.
But we are hearing now that mosques are calling people to come there. It is not a prayer time. Some people speculating this would be to discuss, instead, politics.
The al-Mahdi Army, though, very much on the minds of coalition officials, who vow to attack it and destroy it -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim, well done.
Thanks.
Jim Clancy there live in Baghdad.
And as Jim mentioned there, the reporting and the fighting continues in Fallujah. As Jim mentioned, U.S. Marines now locked in a battle there.
A bit earlier today, Tony Perry, a reporter at the "L.A. Times" embedded with the U.S. Marines in Fallujah, gave us an excellent report. We talked for about 20 minutes earlier today.
I'm going to play another portion of that interview this hour. The question is about strategy on behalf of the insurgents and whether or not he has picked up on that in Fallujah and whether or not that's effective.
Tony Perry again, "L.A. Times," embedded with the U.S. Marines.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TONY PERRY, REPORTER, "L.A. TIMES": They are using ambushes. They're blocking off streets. They're using anti-aircraft. They seem to be -- they have cars. They dart in and fire then (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
They're using a strategy. But even in doing that, even though they're using strategy, their main strategy is a failure, which is a daylight, toe-to-toe fight with the Marines. They cannot win that.
HEMMER: Tony, just a bit west of you in Ramadi, there are reports that the former Republican Guard and well trained troops may be fighting Marines there.
Do you see evidence of that in Fallujah? Based on your description, I don't believe you think that is the case.
PERRY: No, I don't think that's the case. I think what you're seeing is two things. You're seeing -- in Fallujah you're seeing diehard Saddam people, Saddam diehards who think Saddam Hussein ought to get -- ought to be brought back. A dozen of those were caught planting explosive devices near the base here yesterday.
Then you're seeing what historically has been the case in Fallujah -- criminals. They long had a criminal underground that held sway in Fallujah, even under Saddam Hussein's rule. He couldn't bring them to heel. They now have made common cause against the Marines.
There's a third element, and I don't know the percentage, but there are foreign fighters coming in to be part of this Jihad, if you will. The Marines in the last few hours have arrested 50 armed Syrians coming across the border in hopes of getting to Ramadi and Fallujah to be part of the fight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Again, Tony Perry from the "L.A. Times" speaking earlier to us here, embedded with the Marines in Fallujah.
A few other things he pointed out. About 50 Syrian fighters have been apprehended. He did mention that. And, also, he says the Iraqis are losing and losing big, his words from a bit earlier today. The Marines moving essentially block by block in Fallujah and appear to have large gains on the ground as they entered there about 24 hours ago. That's in Fallujah.
Quickly, a note. In Ba'qubah, which is northeast of Baghdad by about 30 miles, word to us here from the Associated Press, a military helicopter has crashed there. Not a lot of details just yet. No word on casualties and no word as to why that went down. But we'll get more on that as we go throughout the morning here.
Let's stay in Baghdad, if we could, here. Jon Lee Anderson of the "New Yorker" magazine has traveled to a number of Shiite areas in Iraq.
He's live in Baghdad to talk about the amount of support, or lack of it, for this radical Muslim cleric.
And, Jon, we welcome you back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
Your impressions about how much support this man may have throughout Iraq today is what?
JON LEE ANDERSON, "THE NEW YORKER": Well, I suppose the most disturbing phenomena is that Sadr had a very limited, really, support before this uprising. Shia I knew estimated his support at something like 25 to 35 percent of the Shia population, which is significant -- the poor, the disenfranchised, the young, the uneducated Shiites, of whom there are quite a few.
But over the last few days, what I have detected is a spread of sympathy for the cause amongst Shiites generally. There is a kind of communal sensibility which has been affected here. Even those people -- I'm not speaking about all Shiites, of course -- but nonetheless the Shiites are a very tight social group. And they feel deeply things in common. And the fact that Shiites are now turning against the coalition and being killed by American troops has affected them deeply and all the Shiites I know are deeply disturbed at this. And I think there are people who are wavering.
And certainly I think the Shiite groups that are involved in the Governing Council must be worried about their power base at the moment, particularly those with militias who have been in tacit alliance with the occupation and until now have not gotten into the fray.
I see this as becoming an increasingly dangerous phenomenon the more days it goes on.
HEMMER: Jim Clancy reported from that same location a few moments ago. He says that there's a call now in a number of mosques throughout Iraq.
Do you know if Shiites are responding to that call at this point?
ANDERSON: Well, the call has gone out, as we understand, but we don't know what this call will be. I've traveled around the city this morning to Sadr City and Khadimiya, two very predominantly Shia areas. One was tense and one was relatively quiet. But there is an air of expectancy. There was sheikhs, various imams, religious leaders meeting with one another. There was a lot of anti-American sentiment being expressed. Depending on the social level you're with, it's expressed with greater feeling or more phlegm, shall we say.
There were funerals going on when I was in Sadr City and quite a few people had gathered in what we would call a mob. They were not dangerous. They did not try to physically intimidate me. But they were very, very angry about what they say are nighttime attacks by the Americans and why are Americans now killing us? You said you came to free us from Saddam, and now you're killing us.
And there's -- this is the problem. Whoever sparked it, whether it is a small group, the mere fact that by having to suppress it, the Americans are inevitably going to be killing civilians and creating more and more hostility in these neighborhoods, we run the risk, as the United States here in Iraq, of alienating the majority population in the country.
HEMMER: In between all this, is there a moderate cleric voice that's breaking through that's being heard?
ANDERSON: Well, the most moderate, you could say, is Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who's the ultimate spiritual reference for the Shiites. And yesterday I was in Najaf at a press conference with Muqtada al-Sadr's number two, in which he said that Sistani had sent a delegation to him telling him keep your people calm, but also invoking the Koranic commandment from god which says that if you are attacked, you may attack.
Clearly, the Sadr people are reading this as a gesture of support by Sistani.
We hear behind the scenes that Sistani is trying to use his good offices and his preeminence as the spiritual leader to calm the waters, to try to get negotiations going. He, they appear to have brokered some agreements locally, that is, for instance, amongst -- with the Spanish garrison in Najaf. Sadr's people control the roads on either side, but seem to be staying away from it so as to avoid confrontation.
There are talks going on under the surface, but with the language that the Americans are using about destroying his organization, it would appear that negotiations might be difficult. This mosque call could be one for Jihad, for all we know. We will see what happens.
HEMMER: Jon Lee Anderson, thank you again, from the "New Yorker," reporting there in Baghdad, just returning from a number of Shiite areas south of the capital city there.
Thanks again for your insights.
Much appreciate it -- now to Heidi again.
More news this morning.
COLLINS: We want to get you up to speed.
A Hamburg court now released the -- now releasing the only person convicted in connection with the September 11 terror attacks. Munir al-Mutassadiq was found guilty last year of aiding an al Qaeda cell. A federal appeals court overturned the verdict last month. His lawyers say Mutassadiq will be free until a retrial, expected to begin in June.
U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is warning outside military action may be needed in western Sudan. U.N. officials say the region has been the site of ethnic cleansing with Arab militias attempting to expel black Africans. As many as one million people have been driven from their homes during the past year. Peace talks between the Sudanese government and rebels are ongoing.
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry criticizing the deadline for the power hand over in Iraq. The Massachusetts senator is suggesting the June 30 date may have more to do with the November presidential elections than with stability in Iraq. President Bush's aides say the comments are "another example of John Kerry playing politics."
HEMMER: Apparently he has a major address today on the economy, his vision for the future, so we'll get to that a bit later today.
COLLINS: Great.
HEMMER: In the meantime, how about that weather, huh?
COLLINS: How about it?
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: In a moment here, here testimony goes down tomorrow, just about this time, in fact. Condoleezza Rice -- how will she respond to the allegations of faulty intelligence prior to 9/11? A leading Republican senator, Chuck Hagel, our guest, in a moment here, from D.C.
COLLINS: California voters deliver a one word message to Wal- Mart. Guess what it is? That's coming up.
HEMMER: Also, it is one list you do not want to be on. And a new lawsuit says it is causing problems for hundreds of travelers.
Back in a moment.
AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this on a busy Wednesday morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We want to let you know a little bit more information that we have now just coming in to us.
We had told you earlier about a U.S. helicopter crash. Getting information now in Ba'qubah. This was a controlled landing. Not sure exactly what type of helicopter we're talking about here. No injuries that we know of at this time. But once again, that helicopter crash we had alerted you to a little bit earlier a controlled landing there.
We'll get more information just as soon as we can.
HEMMER: As promised, Senator Chuck Hagel our guest now from D.C., a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to talk about what's happening in Iraq today and also Condoleezza Rice tomorrow, right about this time. Senator, good morning.
Thanks for coming back here.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NB), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Thank you.
HEMMER: I don't know if you've been listening to the reports in the last segment of our newscast today.
Your reaction based on what we're getting out of Iraq today?
HAGEL: I did listen to the reports. I thought they were excellent. And I think that they laid out very clearly this is a long-term effort. There is going to be great uncertainty. There will be many unknowns. This is complicated, it's dangerous and what we're seeing in Iraq, certainly over the last few days, is exactly that.
And I think the United States needs to stay focused, working with our allies. I think things like a new U.N. resolution that would widen and deepen the international effort here, staying on target with the June 30 governmental handoff very important.
What the Iraqi people need to be assured of is that the United States is not there to occupy them. They need to understand we're there to help them, to liberate them, to move them into a position where they can defend themselves and govern themselves just as soon as possible.
HEMMER: The June 30 deadline, you believe it should stay firm? Is that what you're saying?
HAGEL: Bill, I think you have to. Deadlines force decisions. Now, we could put it off and we could continue this for a long time. But we are now locked into that deadline. I think the symbolism is important. We need to stay focused on that. This is imperfect. It's imprecise. I know there are many questions about the handoff. But the fact is the United States is not going anywhere. Our allies are not going anywhere. And we need to move this forward.
The Iraqi people need to see that there is tangible evidence that they, the Iraqis, are going to be in a position to govern themselves, the sooner the better.
HEMMER: Senator, there are two main issues on our plate today. One is Iraq and the other is Condoleezza Rice's testimony just about 25 hours from now. Senator Kerry hitting back at the White House about not allowing her to testify publicly and then reversing itself.
Senator Kerry first then we'll come back here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And you want to talk about flips and flops, this president said -- this president said one day Condoleezza Rice isn't going to testify. The next day she's going to testify. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Kerry, Senator Kerry in Cincinnati yesterday put the flip or the flop to the side now, she's going to testify tomorrow. You have said it's critical for the White House not to attack Richard Clarke's credibility, but rather to present the facts and defend its position.
Expand on that, if you could.
HAGEL: Well, I think the American people are owed an explanation. And I think the American people want to hear Dr. Rice testify. I think the American people want to have confidence in this administration's national security plans. And this is the only way to do it.
I think it was the right decision for the president to allow Dr. Rice to testify.
You know, John Kerry, Chuck Hagel, all of us say one thing and we'll sometimes come back and, based on new evidence, based on new circumstances and dynamics, make an adjustment to what we had said. I mean that's not unusual.
The president did the right thing here. I think it's important that Dr. Rice come before the American people, as she will, before the Commission, and lay out these issues. If there are inconsistencies, and there evidently are, let her address those. And she'll do that very well. And I think she can lay out a wider lens view of what the Bush administration was planning, thinking, developing in the way of national security plans and foreign policy.
HEMMER: Senator Chuck Hagel, thanks for your time.
HAGEL: Thank you.
HEMMER: Live in D.C. this morning.
We appreciate you coming in today.
HAGEL: Thank you.
HEMMER: Tomorrow, again, at this time, AMERICAN MORNING will be in Washington for coverage of that hearing, Commission -- the Commission hearings, rather. Live coverage starting at 9:00 a.m. Eastern time, when Condoleezza Rice goes before that committee. We'll give you a pretty good run up prior to that testimony, so join us tomorrow there -- Heidi.
COLLINS: We sure will.
Meanwhile, voters in Inglewood, California say no to Wal-Mart. The plan they rejected yesterday -- building a store and complex the size of 17 football fields in a Los Angeles suburb. Wal-Mart reportedly spent more than a million dollars to sponsor a ballot initiative to build the superstore after the city council opposed it. HEMMER: About 21 past the hour. A break here.
In a moment, U.S. forces vowing to destroy a rebel army in Iraq. The latest on what's happening there. And the tough talk again today from Baghdad on the U.S. side.
And Kobe Bryant wants his day in court ASAP. What the NBA star's defense team is now saying, back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: All right, back with Jack now and the Question of the Day -- good morning.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
The situation in Iraq continuing its downward spiral. American troops there suffering the heaviest casualties they have in a year. American commanders say they will arrest the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. He continues to incite his followers while hiding in a mosque.
Meanwhile, the top U.S. administrator, Paul Bremer, insists Iraq's on track for the June 30 hand over of power. But law makers from both parties are asking now if that June 30 deadline should be reassured.
That's the question, is that deadline, June 30, realistic?
Here's some of what you've written.
Charles in Park City, Utah: "No. The deadline is not realistic. But remember that with the presidential election coming up, Bush and gang simply want to wash their hands of Iraq, declare victory and get out, no matter what the cost."
Charlie in Virginia writes: "It's time for the Iraqis to fight for their new freedoms. If we continue to hold their hands, they'll never have a reason to fight for the rights of freedom and democracy."
Manfred in Omaha, Nebraska: "No, not at all. As soon as we get out of there, I guarantee there'll be a civil war escalating among the tribes. Only an international force keeping law and order for many years to come is a reasonable solution."
John in Palm Bay, Florida: "Whether it's realistic or not, we have named the date. To change it now would be a signal to terrorists that they have succeeded in getting us to change the date."
And Tom in Augusta, Georgia writes this: "June 30 is as realistic as anything else connected with the Iraq diversion from the war on terror. It certainly stands as tall as the May 2003 mission accomplished pronouncement."
HEMMER: Clearly there is debate about this right now.
CAFFERTY: Indeed.
HEMMER: Will it be moved or not? We'll have to see.
CAFFERTY: There's also a question about who they're going to hand this power over to. That's not very well defined right now, either.
HEMMER: Indeed.
Jack, thanks.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: Good e-mails again today.
Thanks.
In a moment here, hundreds of innocent air passengers detained and interrogated as suspected terrorists. Now they're taking that case to court. That story in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: You can get the latest news every morning in your e- mail. Just sign up for AMERICAN MORNING Quick News at cnn.com/am.
Still to come this morning, Kobe Bryant's defense team now actually agree with prosecutors about something. Details on that, when AMERICAN MORNING comes back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 7, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Iraqis dying by the dozens on Fallujah -- a battle between Marines and the insurgents ripping through a rebel stronghold today.
The first pictures from Ramadi today. Twelve Marines died there yesterday in a seven hour battle.
The radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr now calling on Shiites across the country to join his movement. Will they make that decision? Will the uprising grow?
All ahead this hour, as AMERICAN MORNING continues now.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Welcome back.
Eight o'clock her in New York.
Soledad is off. Heidi Collins is not. She's working with us again today in here.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: I love how you say that.
HEMMER: I love to have you here, though.
COLLINS: Thank you.
HEMMER: Good morning to you.
I hope Soledad is having a good time off, too, with her family.
COLLINS: You and me, too, yes.
HEMMER: Also this hour, a lot to cover on Iraq today. We'll be looking at the testimony, in addition to that, for tomorrow and Condoleezza Rice and that Commission on Capitol Hill. Senator Chuck Hagel this hour joining us in a few moments, talking about his impressions, not only what he expects from Condoleezza Rice tomorrow, but also his impressions on what he's hearing today regarding the battles in Iraq. Stay tuned for that.
COLLINS: Also, we're talking about the no fly list the government keeps to keep terrorists off airplanes. Now there's a lawsuit challenging it. We'll talk to some of the players on both sides of that suit.
HEMMER: All right, Jack Cafferty, good morning to you.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
Coming up in the Cafferty File, things people say, including why former President Bill Clinton is comparing the Bush administration to a bunch of teenagers.
And we'll find out how Janet Jackson keeps up with the news. Here's a hint -- she doesn't.
HEMMER: Oh, yes?
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: Thanks, Jack.
We'll get to that in a moment.
COLLINS: Shocking.
HEMMER: We want to get to Iraq again straight away this hour.
U.S. and coalition forces locked in a battle now with insurgents in a number of towns. In the last hour, we received new pictures, new videotape from bullets that have flared in the central Iraqi towns of Ramadi and Fallujah. That is in the Sunni Triangle.
Straight to Baghdad and Jim Clancy -- and, Jim, as we go to you, we're going to roll some pictures and the latest videotape from Fallujah.
What are you hearing from that part of Iraq?
Hello again.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, as you note there, a battle in earnest going on for that city. We heard at one point U.S. warplanes overhead. Just about everything has been brought into this battle -- helicopter gunships, the AC-130 gunships, as well as on the ground, Bradley fighting vehicles and M1-A1 Abrams tanks.
We understand one Marine has died from wounds he suffered. Another one, at least one other has been wounded. According to reports on the scene, there are dozens and dozens of Iraqi casualties, including some 25 people killed in a missile strike overnight that hit a civilian neighborhood.
The hospital has been moved downtown. It's been set up as a field hospital. All the shops are closed. Appeals for blood going out from the mosques.
It is a desperate situation for many of the Iraqis as this battle goes forward. They're wondering how long it's going to take to finish -- Bill. HEMMER: Jim, that is Fallujah.
What about Ramadi? Are you hearing much today on that?
CLANCY: Well, we're getting a briefing from the general in charge of all of that. Here's telling reporters about the situation. Yes, 12 Marines were killed. There was some video that came in of the aftermath of all of that. Twelve Marines died, but according to him, the enemy also paid a price. And this surprising development -- he says some Syrian fighters were captured there in the battle that extended for three hours and more than one and a half kilometers on one front.
So it was a battle, you know, it was something of a surprise about the tactics -- head on instead of car bombs, roadside bombs or ambushes. This head on attack, though, failed to take the governor's office and some other key Marine installations that were there. The U.S. Marines firmly in control of the city -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim, let me move to you, a little closer to where you are in Baghdad, Sadr City.
What's the update there?
CLANCY: Sadr City, there are some reports, one Marine was -- excuse me. One 1st Armored Division soldier was killed today in an ambush with a rocket propelled grenade. There are tens of casualties, of course, from the fighting in previous days. It was basically calm there. U.S. troops have taken up positions outside police stations, where they are preventing the Muqtada al-Sadr's so-called Mahdi Army, his private militia, from taking control of those key posts, something that he's wanted to do.
But we are hearing now that mosques are calling people to come there. It is not a prayer time. Some people speculating this would be to discuss, instead, politics.
The al-Mahdi Army, though, very much on the minds of coalition officials, who vow to attack it and destroy it -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim, well done.
Thanks.
Jim Clancy there live in Baghdad.
And as Jim mentioned there, the reporting and the fighting continues in Fallujah. As Jim mentioned, U.S. Marines now locked in a battle there.
A bit earlier today, Tony Perry, a reporter at the "L.A. Times" embedded with the U.S. Marines in Fallujah, gave us an excellent report. We talked for about 20 minutes earlier today.
I'm going to play another portion of that interview this hour. The question is about strategy on behalf of the insurgents and whether or not he has picked up on that in Fallujah and whether or not that's effective.
Tony Perry again, "L.A. Times," embedded with the U.S. Marines.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TONY PERRY, REPORTER, "L.A. TIMES": They are using ambushes. They're blocking off streets. They're using anti-aircraft. They seem to be -- they have cars. They dart in and fire then (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
They're using a strategy. But even in doing that, even though they're using strategy, their main strategy is a failure, which is a daylight, toe-to-toe fight with the Marines. They cannot win that.
HEMMER: Tony, just a bit west of you in Ramadi, there are reports that the former Republican Guard and well trained troops may be fighting Marines there.
Do you see evidence of that in Fallujah? Based on your description, I don't believe you think that is the case.
PERRY: No, I don't think that's the case. I think what you're seeing is two things. You're seeing -- in Fallujah you're seeing diehard Saddam people, Saddam diehards who think Saddam Hussein ought to get -- ought to be brought back. A dozen of those were caught planting explosive devices near the base here yesterday.
Then you're seeing what historically has been the case in Fallujah -- criminals. They long had a criminal underground that held sway in Fallujah, even under Saddam Hussein's rule. He couldn't bring them to heel. They now have made common cause against the Marines.
There's a third element, and I don't know the percentage, but there are foreign fighters coming in to be part of this Jihad, if you will. The Marines in the last few hours have arrested 50 armed Syrians coming across the border in hopes of getting to Ramadi and Fallujah to be part of the fight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Again, Tony Perry from the "L.A. Times" speaking earlier to us here, embedded with the Marines in Fallujah.
A few other things he pointed out. About 50 Syrian fighters have been apprehended. He did mention that. And, also, he says the Iraqis are losing and losing big, his words from a bit earlier today. The Marines moving essentially block by block in Fallujah and appear to have large gains on the ground as they entered there about 24 hours ago. That's in Fallujah.
Quickly, a note. In Ba'qubah, which is northeast of Baghdad by about 30 miles, word to us here from the Associated Press, a military helicopter has crashed there. Not a lot of details just yet. No word on casualties and no word as to why that went down. But we'll get more on that as we go throughout the morning here.
Let's stay in Baghdad, if we could, here. Jon Lee Anderson of the "New Yorker" magazine has traveled to a number of Shiite areas in Iraq.
He's live in Baghdad to talk about the amount of support, or lack of it, for this radical Muslim cleric.
And, Jon, we welcome you back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
Your impressions about how much support this man may have throughout Iraq today is what?
JON LEE ANDERSON, "THE NEW YORKER": Well, I suppose the most disturbing phenomena is that Sadr had a very limited, really, support before this uprising. Shia I knew estimated his support at something like 25 to 35 percent of the Shia population, which is significant -- the poor, the disenfranchised, the young, the uneducated Shiites, of whom there are quite a few.
But over the last few days, what I have detected is a spread of sympathy for the cause amongst Shiites generally. There is a kind of communal sensibility which has been affected here. Even those people -- I'm not speaking about all Shiites, of course -- but nonetheless the Shiites are a very tight social group. And they feel deeply things in common. And the fact that Shiites are now turning against the coalition and being killed by American troops has affected them deeply and all the Shiites I know are deeply disturbed at this. And I think there are people who are wavering.
And certainly I think the Shiite groups that are involved in the Governing Council must be worried about their power base at the moment, particularly those with militias who have been in tacit alliance with the occupation and until now have not gotten into the fray.
I see this as becoming an increasingly dangerous phenomenon the more days it goes on.
HEMMER: Jim Clancy reported from that same location a few moments ago. He says that there's a call now in a number of mosques throughout Iraq.
Do you know if Shiites are responding to that call at this point?
ANDERSON: Well, the call has gone out, as we understand, but we don't know what this call will be. I've traveled around the city this morning to Sadr City and Khadimiya, two very predominantly Shia areas. One was tense and one was relatively quiet. But there is an air of expectancy. There was sheikhs, various imams, religious leaders meeting with one another. There was a lot of anti-American sentiment being expressed. Depending on the social level you're with, it's expressed with greater feeling or more phlegm, shall we say.
There were funerals going on when I was in Sadr City and quite a few people had gathered in what we would call a mob. They were not dangerous. They did not try to physically intimidate me. But they were very, very angry about what they say are nighttime attacks by the Americans and why are Americans now killing us? You said you came to free us from Saddam, and now you're killing us.
And there's -- this is the problem. Whoever sparked it, whether it is a small group, the mere fact that by having to suppress it, the Americans are inevitably going to be killing civilians and creating more and more hostility in these neighborhoods, we run the risk, as the United States here in Iraq, of alienating the majority population in the country.
HEMMER: In between all this, is there a moderate cleric voice that's breaking through that's being heard?
ANDERSON: Well, the most moderate, you could say, is Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who's the ultimate spiritual reference for the Shiites. And yesterday I was in Najaf at a press conference with Muqtada al-Sadr's number two, in which he said that Sistani had sent a delegation to him telling him keep your people calm, but also invoking the Koranic commandment from god which says that if you are attacked, you may attack.
Clearly, the Sadr people are reading this as a gesture of support by Sistani.
We hear behind the scenes that Sistani is trying to use his good offices and his preeminence as the spiritual leader to calm the waters, to try to get negotiations going. He, they appear to have brokered some agreements locally, that is, for instance, amongst -- with the Spanish garrison in Najaf. Sadr's people control the roads on either side, but seem to be staying away from it so as to avoid confrontation.
There are talks going on under the surface, but with the language that the Americans are using about destroying his organization, it would appear that negotiations might be difficult. This mosque call could be one for Jihad, for all we know. We will see what happens.
HEMMER: Jon Lee Anderson, thank you again, from the "New Yorker," reporting there in Baghdad, just returning from a number of Shiite areas south of the capital city there.
Thanks again for your insights.
Much appreciate it -- now to Heidi again.
More news this morning.
COLLINS: We want to get you up to speed.
A Hamburg court now released the -- now releasing the only person convicted in connection with the September 11 terror attacks. Munir al-Mutassadiq was found guilty last year of aiding an al Qaeda cell. A federal appeals court overturned the verdict last month. His lawyers say Mutassadiq will be free until a retrial, expected to begin in June.
U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is warning outside military action may be needed in western Sudan. U.N. officials say the region has been the site of ethnic cleansing with Arab militias attempting to expel black Africans. As many as one million people have been driven from their homes during the past year. Peace talks between the Sudanese government and rebels are ongoing.
Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry criticizing the deadline for the power hand over in Iraq. The Massachusetts senator is suggesting the June 30 date may have more to do with the November presidential elections than with stability in Iraq. President Bush's aides say the comments are "another example of John Kerry playing politics."
HEMMER: Apparently he has a major address today on the economy, his vision for the future, so we'll get to that a bit later today.
COLLINS: Great.
HEMMER: In the meantime, how about that weather, huh?
COLLINS: How about it?
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: In a moment here, here testimony goes down tomorrow, just about this time, in fact. Condoleezza Rice -- how will she respond to the allegations of faulty intelligence prior to 9/11? A leading Republican senator, Chuck Hagel, our guest, in a moment here, from D.C.
COLLINS: California voters deliver a one word message to Wal- Mart. Guess what it is? That's coming up.
HEMMER: Also, it is one list you do not want to be on. And a new lawsuit says it is causing problems for hundreds of travelers.
Back in a moment.
AMERICAN MORNING continues right after this on a busy Wednesday morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: We want to let you know a little bit more information that we have now just coming in to us.
We had told you earlier about a U.S. helicopter crash. Getting information now in Ba'qubah. This was a controlled landing. Not sure exactly what type of helicopter we're talking about here. No injuries that we know of at this time. But once again, that helicopter crash we had alerted you to a little bit earlier a controlled landing there.
We'll get more information just as soon as we can.
HEMMER: As promised, Senator Chuck Hagel our guest now from D.C., a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, to talk about what's happening in Iraq today and also Condoleezza Rice tomorrow, right about this time. Senator, good morning.
Thanks for coming back here.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R-NB), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Thank you.
HEMMER: I don't know if you've been listening to the reports in the last segment of our newscast today.
Your reaction based on what we're getting out of Iraq today?
HAGEL: I did listen to the reports. I thought they were excellent. And I think that they laid out very clearly this is a long-term effort. There is going to be great uncertainty. There will be many unknowns. This is complicated, it's dangerous and what we're seeing in Iraq, certainly over the last few days, is exactly that.
And I think the United States needs to stay focused, working with our allies. I think things like a new U.N. resolution that would widen and deepen the international effort here, staying on target with the June 30 governmental handoff very important.
What the Iraqi people need to be assured of is that the United States is not there to occupy them. They need to understand we're there to help them, to liberate them, to move them into a position where they can defend themselves and govern themselves just as soon as possible.
HEMMER: The June 30 deadline, you believe it should stay firm? Is that what you're saying?
HAGEL: Bill, I think you have to. Deadlines force decisions. Now, we could put it off and we could continue this for a long time. But we are now locked into that deadline. I think the symbolism is important. We need to stay focused on that. This is imperfect. It's imprecise. I know there are many questions about the handoff. But the fact is the United States is not going anywhere. Our allies are not going anywhere. And we need to move this forward.
The Iraqi people need to see that there is tangible evidence that they, the Iraqis, are going to be in a position to govern themselves, the sooner the better.
HEMMER: Senator, there are two main issues on our plate today. One is Iraq and the other is Condoleezza Rice's testimony just about 25 hours from now. Senator Kerry hitting back at the White House about not allowing her to testify publicly and then reversing itself.
Senator Kerry first then we'll come back here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And you want to talk about flips and flops, this president said -- this president said one day Condoleezza Rice isn't going to testify. The next day she's going to testify. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Kerry, Senator Kerry in Cincinnati yesterday put the flip or the flop to the side now, she's going to testify tomorrow. You have said it's critical for the White House not to attack Richard Clarke's credibility, but rather to present the facts and defend its position.
Expand on that, if you could.
HAGEL: Well, I think the American people are owed an explanation. And I think the American people want to hear Dr. Rice testify. I think the American people want to have confidence in this administration's national security plans. And this is the only way to do it.
I think it was the right decision for the president to allow Dr. Rice to testify.
You know, John Kerry, Chuck Hagel, all of us say one thing and we'll sometimes come back and, based on new evidence, based on new circumstances and dynamics, make an adjustment to what we had said. I mean that's not unusual.
The president did the right thing here. I think it's important that Dr. Rice come before the American people, as she will, before the Commission, and lay out these issues. If there are inconsistencies, and there evidently are, let her address those. And she'll do that very well. And I think she can lay out a wider lens view of what the Bush administration was planning, thinking, developing in the way of national security plans and foreign policy.
HEMMER: Senator Chuck Hagel, thanks for your time.
HAGEL: Thank you.
HEMMER: Live in D.C. this morning.
We appreciate you coming in today.
HAGEL: Thank you.
HEMMER: Tomorrow, again, at this time, AMERICAN MORNING will be in Washington for coverage of that hearing, Commission -- the Commission hearings, rather. Live coverage starting at 9:00 a.m. Eastern time, when Condoleezza Rice goes before that committee. We'll give you a pretty good run up prior to that testimony, so join us tomorrow there -- Heidi.
COLLINS: We sure will.
Meanwhile, voters in Inglewood, California say no to Wal-Mart. The plan they rejected yesterday -- building a store and complex the size of 17 football fields in a Los Angeles suburb. Wal-Mart reportedly spent more than a million dollars to sponsor a ballot initiative to build the superstore after the city council opposed it. HEMMER: About 21 past the hour. A break here.
In a moment, U.S. forces vowing to destroy a rebel army in Iraq. The latest on what's happening there. And the tough talk again today from Baghdad on the U.S. side.
And Kobe Bryant wants his day in court ASAP. What the NBA star's defense team is now saying, back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: All right, back with Jack now and the Question of the Day -- good morning.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
The situation in Iraq continuing its downward spiral. American troops there suffering the heaviest casualties they have in a year. American commanders say they will arrest the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. He continues to incite his followers while hiding in a mosque.
Meanwhile, the top U.S. administrator, Paul Bremer, insists Iraq's on track for the June 30 hand over of power. But law makers from both parties are asking now if that June 30 deadline should be reassured.
That's the question, is that deadline, June 30, realistic?
Here's some of what you've written.
Charles in Park City, Utah: "No. The deadline is not realistic. But remember that with the presidential election coming up, Bush and gang simply want to wash their hands of Iraq, declare victory and get out, no matter what the cost."
Charlie in Virginia writes: "It's time for the Iraqis to fight for their new freedoms. If we continue to hold their hands, they'll never have a reason to fight for the rights of freedom and democracy."
Manfred in Omaha, Nebraska: "No, not at all. As soon as we get out of there, I guarantee there'll be a civil war escalating among the tribes. Only an international force keeping law and order for many years to come is a reasonable solution."
John in Palm Bay, Florida: "Whether it's realistic or not, we have named the date. To change it now would be a signal to terrorists that they have succeeded in getting us to change the date."
And Tom in Augusta, Georgia writes this: "June 30 is as realistic as anything else connected with the Iraq diversion from the war on terror. It certainly stands as tall as the May 2003 mission accomplished pronouncement."
HEMMER: Clearly there is debate about this right now.
CAFFERTY: Indeed.
HEMMER: Will it be moved or not? We'll have to see.
CAFFERTY: There's also a question about who they're going to hand this power over to. That's not very well defined right now, either.
HEMMER: Indeed.
Jack, thanks.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: Good e-mails again today.
Thanks.
In a moment here, hundreds of innocent air passengers detained and interrogated as suspected terrorists. Now they're taking that case to court. That story in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: You can get the latest news every morning in your e- mail. Just sign up for AMERICAN MORNING Quick News at cnn.com/am.
Still to come this morning, Kobe Bryant's defense team now actually agree with prosecutors about something. Details on that, when AMERICAN MORNING comes back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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