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Lou Dobbs Tonight

U.S. General Admits More Troops Needed in Iraq; Broken Borders: Illegal Aliens Detained in Newark

Aired April 12, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, April is already the deadliest month of combat for American troops in Iraq, since the start of the war. And a top U.S. general today admitted he needs more troops in Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I've asked for is essentially to have a strong mobile combat arms capability.

DOBBS: The Bush administration says the war in Iraq is not another Vietnam. A former CIA Middle East specialist gives us his assessment.

President Bush today discussed the Middle East crisis with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. The council general of Israel, Alon Pinkas, is our guest.

A year ago, the Bush administration said America's new policy in the Middle East was one of democratization. Tonight, I'll talk about the challenges to American power and foreign policy with the former secretary of state, Henry Kissinger.

An astonishing breakdown in airport security. One hundred thirty illegal aliens board commercial aircraft in Los Angeles and fly to the East Coast. And a growing crisis facing this country's public schools. Tonight, our special report, "Making the Grade: Education in America."

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, for Monday, April 12. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight, American troops in Iraq are facing the toughest month of the war so far. At least 76 Americans have been killed in combat this month, more than any other month since the war began. The coalition says U.S. troops have killed 700 insurgents over the same period.

Jim Clancy reports from Baghdad -- Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: First to that troubled spot here in the Sunni triangle, Lou. There are talks ongoing in Fallujah to try to disengage and win a cease-fire between the U.S. Marines and the Fallujah insurgents. There is also talk under way in the southern city of Najaf between representatives of the radical Shia leader, Muqtada al-Sadr, and Iraqi members of the Governing Council and other negotiators that are there trying to avert a crisis.

The U.S. moved into one of the southern cities that his Mehdi army, Muqtada al-Sadr's militia, tried to take over. They did take it over, in fact, but the U.S. has taken that city of Kut, about 100 miles southeast of Baghdad, completely back over, and U.S. forces were patrolling the streets. Some Iraqi police seen along with them, although they did not perform very well when the militia initially went in there.

We are also hearing there is a deal reached in Najaf between the police chief and a representative of Muqtada al-Sadr for al-Sadr's militia to pull out of police stations and government stations there. Problem with that deal, Lou, and the problem is this: They want the U.S. military to pull back its forces. That's not likely. Same problem with Fallujah. That's what's going in Najaf right now, a very important, very holy city for the majority Shia Muslims of Iraq.

Meantime, supply lines and convoys got battered again on Monday. There was one vehicle hit west of Baghdad, in the airport road area. The truck was burning, on fire, after it had been hit apparently by a rocket-propelled grenade. The looters converged on it almost instantly, as Iraqi police looked on.

Also, another supply line hit, south of Baghdad, near Iskandariya. It was about 20 miles south of the capital city. That convoy set alight. There were some armored personnel carriers on board. The U.S. military saying it is doing everything possible to try to clean up a couple of key areas here that are causing a lot of problems. These convoys that have been hit, a major source for insurgents to snatch truck drivers, or military people off of those convoys. They're trying to make this situation more secure, Lou. The job isn't easy. They've still got a lot to do.

DOBBS: Jim, thank you very much. Jim Clancy, reporting live from Baghdad.

The Iraqi insurgents have adopted a new and to this point highly effective strategy in their war against the coalition. The insurgents are now kidnapping foreign nationals and trying to use them for leverage in negotiations with the U.S. military.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): Today, the U.S. military revealed more kidnappings of Americans.

GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. COMMANDER, IRAQ: We've got two American soldiers that are unaccounted for at this point, and we also have seven KBR employees that are also unaccounted for.

DOBBS: All nine have been missing since an ambush in the Sunni triangle last week. One of the known hostages is Thomas Hamill, a driver for Kellogg, Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary. THOMAS HAMILL: They attacked our convoy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to give us your name?

HAMILL: Hamill. Thomas.

DOBBS: Hamill said he was the only survivor of the attack on the convoy. Residents of Hamill's hometown are doing what they can for his family.

DOROTHY BAKER HINES, MAYOR OF MACON: We're going to show him our support by anything. We're going to have flags up, yellow ribbons, a prayer vigil. And we will continue to keep him in prayer.

DOBBS: Halliburton issued this statement, saying: "We at Halliburton and KBR remain anxious, but prayerful that our colleague, Thomas Hamill, will be returned safely. Our thoughts remain with our six other missing colleagues and the personnel assisting with the search-and-rescue effort and we remain hopeful for other co-workers' safe return"; 30 people working for Halliburton and its subcontractors have been killed in the region.

In Japan, Vice President Dick Cheney told Prime Minister Koizumi the U.S. supports his handling of the Japanese hostage situation. There is still no word on the fate of three Japanese hostages in Iraq who were to be burned alive if Japan did not withdraw its troops by Sunday.

Two Arabs are also being held. China reports seven of its citizens were released today after being taken hostage over the weekend. British national Gary Teeley, who was kidnapped last week, was released yesterday. Teeley said he feared for his life.

GARY TEELEY, RELEASED HOSTAGE: I would say there was two or three different incidences where I thought this was the time, this is no more and this is where it all stops.

DOBBS: Three Czech journalists have been reported missing since yesterday and two German embassy guards missing from an attack Wednesday are now presumed dead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And now comes late word that 11 Russian contractors have been kidnapped in Baghdad. The electric power company they worked for, Interenergo Service, said no demands have been made.

The head of Central Command, General John Abizaid, today admitted he needs more troops in Iraq. The general said he wants another two combat brigades. That's about 10,000 more troops.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as we reported first here last Friday, most of those troops will come from extending the tour of the 1st Armored Division, which was scheduled to rotate out of Iraq about this time, but instead has been told that about half the division, roughly 10,000 troops, may be staying for another three months.

Technically, the request is coming back to the Pentagon for review. Today, a Pentagon source says there was a meeting of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in a secure briefing here in the Pentagon to discuss the troop rotation plan. The key question is whether this will be some additional troops sent from the U.S. and whether they may need to come up with an additional plan to provide troops after this three-month period is over.

This is also underscored by the fact that the Pentagon, the U.S. military is experiencing problems with the poor performance of some of the Iraqi police and troops. While many of them, we're told, are serving with distinction, there are several cases, including Iraq's 2nd Battalion, which refused to go to Fallujah to join Marines in fighting there. That came after a breakdown in Baghdad when militia loyal to the anti-U.S. cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, seized control of police stations and none of the local Iraqi police resisted them.

Today, U.S. commanders admitted this was a problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Some of them did very well and some of them did not. And in the south, a number of units both in the police force and also in the ICDC did not stand up to the intimidators of the forces of Sadr's militia. And that was a great disappointment to us. In other places, such as in and around Fallujah, we've had good, strong performances by several units. And we're satisfied with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The U.S. hopes to stiffen the resistance and the determination of Iraqi military forces by putting more American special forces among their ranks and also replacing what they see as weak Iraqi leaders.

But one thing is clear, Lou, and that is the U.S. military will have to provide the front-line security well past the June 30 turnover date -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, any indication as to how soon the reinforcements can be provided American troops now in Iraq?

MCINTYRE: Well, those extra 10,000 troops are already in Iraq and pretty much the decision has been made for them to stay. Technically, it has to be signed off from the Pentagon. So for the immediate problem, General Abizaid has his 10,000 extra troops.

In fact, they're the ones they moved down to take control of Al Kut. But the question, what is he going to do down the road, particularly when the three months is up? That's something the Pentagon is still debating. DOBBS: Jamie, this begins to sound -- and the reason why I ask the question -- a little bit like Pentagon math. The general is asking for two more combat brigades and already has the troops that he's requesting. Make sense of that for us, will you?

MCINTYRE: Well, of course, these troops have been promised that their tour of duty would be one year. That's one of the things the Pentagon made a big deal about in relieving the stress on combat deployments, that there would be predictability.

What they've done now is taken that predictability away again for 10,000 troops who thought they would be going back to Germany. They all got letters from their commanding officer saying, sorry, looks like we need you to stay.

DOBBS: So, in summation, the general has asked for 10,000 more troops, 10,000 troops that are now under his command in Iraq and that is a solution?

MCINTYRE: Well, that's the temporary solution, but, again, the long-term solution is one that they're going to have to work on.

Of course, there were calls again this weekend to increase the size of the U.S. military. Senator John McCain made that statement. Also retired General Barry McCaffrey, a former four-star commander, also argued that the U.S. military needs 80,000 additional troops. The Pentagon continues to insist they don't think that's the long-term answer.

DOBBS: Any instinct there at the Pentagon as to when Rumsfeldian English is going to have to comport to that language the rest of us use and the mathematics of the Pentagon is going to have to follow the two-plus-two-equals-four dictum?

MCINTYRE: Well, I think Rumsfeld would take issue with that.

But let me just say that I think that's an issue that is going to be decided, as they say, at the Pentagon, above my pay grade. You know, getting into parsing what Rumsfeld is saying, what the military is saying, what Congress is saying, it's more than I can get into, I think.

DOBBS: Well, you do a tremendous and highly effective job, along with your colleague, Barbara Starr, each day in the effort. And we thank you, Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

President Bush today said the situation in Iraq is improving. President Bush said the United States cannot allow a small number of Iraqis to determine the future of everyone. President Bush made his remarks at a news conference with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Crawford, Texas.

Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: During that meeting, Lou, President Hosni Mubarak said that he conveyed to President Bush serious concern about the current situation in Iraq, particularly with regard to security and humanitarian efforts in that country.

Now, Hosni Mubarak also stressed to President Bush, he says, the importance of restoring Iraq's sovereignty as soon as possible. And the Egyptian leader said that recent efforts to increase the role of the United Nations are an important step that should be further encouraged.

For his part, President Bush said the U.S.-led coalition is working with the U.N. to transfer political power to the Iraqi people. That deadline is still set for June 30, but the president has maintained even after the handover, U.S. and coalition forces will remain in Iraq to help with security while the new government tries to take root.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But you're right. It was a tough week because there was lawlessness and gangs that were trying to take the law in their own hands. These were people that were trying to make a statement prior to the transfer of sovereignty that they would get to decide the fate of Iraq through violence. A civil society, a peaceful society can't grow with people who are willing to kill in order to stop progress.

And our job is to provide security for the Iraqi people so that a transition can take place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, the two presidents also discussed the possible Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, ahead of a planned visit by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the White House, that set to take place on Wednesday.

Also today President Bush announced that he will be holding a formal news conference tomorrow night at 8:30 Eastern time, that set to be just his 12th formal news conference since he took office -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Elaine Quijano from the White House.

Still ahead here, U.S. military commanders say they will kill or capture the rebel Iraqi cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr. Former CIA Middle East specialist Reuel Marc Gerecht is s my guest.

President Bush and President Hosni Mubarak today talked about prospects of peace and democracy in the Middle East. Next up at the White House, Ariel Sharon. I'll be talking with Israel's consul general, Alon Pinkas.

And in "Broken Borders" tonight, 130 illegal aliens enter the country and incredibly passed through security checks and then fly from Los Angeles to the East Coast. We'll have a report.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The commander of American troops in Iraq, General Ricardo Sanchez, today said the U.S. military will kill or capture the rebel Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

My guest tonight says al-Sadr's rebellion is a warning both for the United States and the Shiite clergy led by Ayatollah Sistani.

Reuel Marc Gerecht is a former CIA Middle East specialist, now a resident follow at the American Enterprise Institute, joining us tonight from Washington.

Good to have you here, Reuel.

Let me ask you first, we have negotiations going on with al-Sadr and his people at the same time the command of U.S. military forces saying they're going to kill or capture Sadr. How do you square that off?

REUEL MARC GERECHT, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Well, I think the negotiations, really, are going to be -- are between grand Ayatollah ali Sistani, the preeminent cleric in Iraq, and Mr. Sadr. That's the first negotiation that has to roll through. After that, I think we'll have to see whether Mr. Sadr will voluntarily leave Najaf.

If he doesn't leave Najaf, then the Americans I don't think will be able to seize him or kill him.

DOBBS: Then, for what reason would he possibly leave?

GERECHT: Well, it depends. I mean, the Sistani has actually thrown the Sadriyun, his followers, out of Najaf before.

This is not the first time that they've had a head-on collision. And, actually, I think it's the third time. They had a problem in the summer. They also had a problem in October, when Sadr attempted to the establish his own government and now more intensely is now. I think Sadr will want to stay in Najaf. Certainly if he intends to continue his attempt at an insurrection, the place to do it is in Najaf, because he can undermine Sistani there. And obviously, the American troops are not going to go into the holy city.

DOBBS: Give us your best assessment. President Bush today said things are improving, referencing, as did the Department of Defense, to a bad week last week. How big is this uprising as a challenge to U.S. security in Iraq?

GERECHT: I don't think Mr. Sadr's attempt to foment a Shiite insurrection is really much of a threat. I think what -- contrary to a lot of commentary that we've heard in the last week, I think his attempt actually shows quite clearly that the vast majority of the Shiites, including the major Shiite militias, actually have chosen to continue their cooperation with the United States.

If that were not the case, you would see hundreds of American soldiers dead, not the, you know, around 60, I believe. So I think the evidence is quite clear that he has failed. Now it's an issue really between first and foremost as I said between Sistani and Sadr or whether -- excuse me.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Reuel, let me ask, you because that's quite a statement to say it would be hundreds, rather than dozens of Americans killed. Not even with full force could the Iraqi army inflict hundreds of casualties against the United States. Why would we expect, why would you suggest that organized militias could inflict that kind of casualty rate against U.S. forces?

GERECHT: Because the primary reason is, those casualties primarily come through urban warfare. And it's quite different from trying to confront the United States Army out in the open field, where you have not much of a chance at all and then trying to get them into some type of Mogadishu.

I think if you had thousands -- I mean, take for example the major Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade, which is part of the Supreme Council For the Islam Revolution in Iraq, it is estimated to have at least 10,000 members. If those 10,000 members were to start engaging in urban warfare against us, we'd have very serious trouble.

DOBBS: So what I hear you saying is that you don't think the U.S. and the coalition should go about disarming Iraqis at any stage here because of the potential of heavy, heavy casualties as a result of urban warfare.

GERECHT: Well, I think, in retrospect, even at the time, I think the United States should have made a much more aggressive effort to do that several months ago. We did not. And now we're in a bit of a predicament.

I think there needs to be -- the issue of the militias need to be brought up. They need to be publicly debated. You need to get the Iraqis themselves involved. But I think the odds obviously in the short term of those militias being disbanded or disarmed are very slight.

DOBBS: And, very quickly, General Abizaid today said clearly there is support for al-Sadr from Syria and from Iran. The potential for further complication there?

GERECHT: Yes.

I think it's quite clear if the surrounding countries, particularly Iran and Syria, choose to get involved in this, the United States has to send a very clear and strong message that it can't be tolerated. The Iranians in particular could cause a great deal of trouble. It's entirely possible they've already been sending money to a variety of folks inside of Iraq. And if they were to turn up the heat, I think the United States would have to respond very quickly or we could have a very difficult situation on our hands.

DOBBS: Reuel Marc Gerecht, we thank you very much for being with us here.

GERECHT: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Turning to our poll tonight, the question, do you believe the U.S. government should ever negotiate with terrorists, definitely, never or under certain conditions? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou.

We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

We'll also be talking with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger about challenges to American power and policy not only in the Middle East, but throughout the world.

And disturbing findings at this major airports. The illegal aliens not just at the country's borders, but flying coast to coast. We'll have a special report.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: For the second time in four days, customs agents have captured and arrested dozens of illegal aliens at Newark Liberty Airport. The illegal aliens were detained after they had flown across the country from California.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When passengers on Continental Flight 1803 from Los Angeles to Newark got off the plane Thursday, customs and border agents were waiting for them at the gate; 88 illegal aliens were detained. On Saturday, 42 more illegal aliens were stopped traveling on a Continental and American Airlines flight on the same route.

The Department of Homeland Security is investigating how the passengers were able to board the planes. They may have used Mexican matricula cards, which are accepted as valid forms of I.D. by the Transportation Security Administration. Peter Gadiel, whose son died in the 9/11 attacks, says the U.S. government needs tougher screening standards.

PETER GADIEL, LOST SON ON 9/11: The people who pulled off the 9/11 hijackings used airplanes for their weapons of mass destruction. And what we have here is a case of 88 illegal aliens on one airplane. I don't think it take much imagination to extend this from this event to a bunch -- if some of these were terrorists to another 9/11. I mean, it's just -- it's absurd. It's absurd.

SYLVESTER: The Department of Homeland Security says TSA does not have the authority to enforce immigration laws. In a statement, the department says airplane security was not jeopardized because each of the 88 passengers was checked against the no-fly list, presented government-issued photo identification that matched the name on the boarding pass. They each went through a screening checkpoint.

Pro-immigration groups are criticizing the government for profiling Hispanics.

FATHER JOEL MAGALLANES, IMMIGRANT ACTIVIST: They were arrested, those people who were traveling and also those people who coming to pick up their passengers.

SYLVESTER: Immigration and customs enforcement officials believe smugglers may be trying different routes now that security has been tightened along the Arizona border. Instead of traveling by land, it may be easier to take a flight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: The Department of Homeland Security initially proposed including immigration status in the new airport prescreening program called CAPPS-2, so, if someone's immigration information did not check out, it would automatically be red-flagged.

But privacy groups said this was going too far. In response, the proposal was dropped. And, Lou, even though CAPPS-2 has not been finalized, an immigration status check is not likely to happen at this point -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester from Washington.

Still ahead here, uprising in Iraq. The latest wave of violence is complicating the Bush administration's vision of democracy, not only in Iraq, but across the Middle East. I'll be talking about U.S. strategy with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

Also, making the grade, education in America, our special report tonight on where the best and worst teachers in the country end up working and why.

Stay with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: No less than three months before the handover of power is schedule in Iraq, coalition forces are set to hand over control of the country on June 30, but it's still far from clear who will then be in charge. And the rising violence across Iraq is making that question all the more difficult.

Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the violent insurgency exploded across Iraq in recent days, top U.S. officials still admitted they do not know who will take over power on June 30.

DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: As to who we hand over sovereignty to, we are working that out right now.

STARR: Still the Bush administration is determined to stick to its plan.

COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We will continue to drive ahead with that work. There's no point delaying it.

STARR: The pressure is on. By May 30 an interim government is to be chosen. On June 30 it will take power. It will be operational one month later. The United Nations adviser Lakhdar Brahimi is trying to broker an agreement between the Iraq governing council and various factions including the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani for an interim government that could take power. The current violence has not helped. The leading option, the U.S. turns over authority to an expanded version of the Iraq governing council.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani himself has already said that if that is the course that the U.S. takes that that governing council, that interim government will have no legitimacy and will have no authority.

STARR: U.S. officials feel the violence makes the turnover even more important. A new Iraqi government may lessen resentment against the U.S. occupation. As for the U.S. military it will stay in Iraq after June 30 trying to stabilize the security situation and give the fragile Iraqi political process a chance to flourish. Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Iraq, as difficult as the situation is now, is only one of the challenges facing U.S. foreign policy. From North Korea to China, Russia, Iran, Syria, American power and policy is being challenged. Joining me now one of the foremost policy thinkers and diplomats of the past four decades, former secretary of state Henry Kissinger. Good to have you here.

Let me begin with Iraq. A handover on June 30. Ambassador Paul Bremer himself says he doesn't know who they will hand over power to nor is there any idea as to who will succeed Bremer himself. What's your reaction?

HENRY KISSINGER, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, the basic problem is can the Iraqis agree on how they are going to govern themselves. The June 30 deadline is one we established on a hopeful basis, but the fundamental problem is can these three groups, Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis agree on a government? If they can't agree on a government by June 30 it's really more their problem than our problem for the time being. Then, if this keeps up maybe Iraq will go the way of Yugoslavia and break up into three pieces.

DOBBS: And that has been -- actually been a suggestion, an idea advocated by a number of people. What is your thought?

KISSINGER: I'm not advocating it, but I think we should make clear that we are doing this to help the Iraqi people govern themselves. If they're not able right thou to agree on how to govern themselves we will have to maintain order for a while because we have the fundamental interest that Iraq does not turn into an Afghanistan. A black hole in which terrorist groups can organize.

DOBBS: Is it not remarkable that we've moved from the pronouncements of the Bush administration more than a year ago that democratization of the Middle East would be the policy of the United States. Democracy in Iraq would be the goal to a point where Henry Kissinger has to say we have to make certain it doesn't turn into a black hole. Are we that far from a positive influence and realignment in the Middle East.

KISSINGER: No, we're not that far from it. I'm saying that to get a sense of perspective so that this doesn't look as if it's the policy of one particular administration. I support it and continue to support the basic policy in Iraq but I don't think we should get caught up in our own pronouncements. We want democracy. We want to give them a chance to produce democracy, but we have other options.

DOBBS: Like what?

KISSINGER: Like maintaining order, preventing terrorist organizations from organizing and letting the domestic evolution take its course. It's not my preferred course. My preferred course is to see whether -- it's to make a maximum effort to create a government, when we say create a government it means to encourage people that we have liberated to work together.

DOBBS: By any standard it is unprecedentedly ambitious to try to put in place a democracy within a year, a little more than a year of having invaded a country and deposed a regime.

KISSINGER: It's not possible within a year. It took us seven years before we had a sovereign government in Germany after military occupation and the same number of years in Japan. In one year we're not going to get a Democratic government. In one year what we can do is get the beginning of representative government and that is within our reach and that is how I interpret what the administration is trying to do.

DOBBS: What the administration's trying to do on occasion does require some interpretation. The fact is democratization in the Middle East as a pronouncement and enunciation by this administration results in a meeting today between Hosni Mubarak who is hardly a Democratic leader of the people of Egypt expressing views on Gaza in advance of Ariel Sharon's visit in two days. A Middle East peace process that is in at least -- has been moved to the backburner, if I can use that cliche. It has hardly been advanced to this point. Is there any hope for an actual success in the Middle East on any front, whether it be the road map to peace, Iraq in the short term, a realignment of interests in the Middle East to conform to the idea of democracy in the Middle East?

KISSINGER: I want to return to what I said before. Our eagerness is not the only element that is needed to produce peace or to produce progress in Iraq. To produce peace between the Palestinians and Israel there needs to be a willingness on both sides to make major moves. On the Israeli side, actually I think the beginning of agreeing to give up settlements is...

DOBBS: In Gaza?

KISSINGER: In Gaza, but it gives one the idea that one could imagine that a line is drawn on the West Bank that is compatible with Israel's security, not too far from where the present line is, with a settlement on the other side of that line being on Arab territory or being moved out on the Palestinian side, it requires a genuine acceptance of an Israeli state.

DOBBS: Right.

KISSINGER: Which they have never really brought themselves to do. So I actually think that if people like Mubarak and the Europeans were to help and were to be a little more flexible about some of these lines that significant progress is possible.

DOBBS: Of course, you put that in the normative, Mubarak being helpful, the Europeans being helpful...

KISSINGER: That is not happening now.

DOBBS: Right. Turning to other challenges. Taiwan, China. That has not obviously been a resolved issue, a contest, the emergence of India as a significant counterweight apparently in the view, again requiring some interpretation, but it appears this administration has decided there will be a counterweight to Chinese influence in the region. Give us your best judgment about the success, at least in that policy.

KISSINGER: I think it's a mistake to play that sort of balance of power game. India by its nature will be a weight and we don't have to make it a weight. We have two sets of problems. The one you raised about Iraq in the Middle East which is sort of a revolutionary- type problem similar to the 30-year war in Europe 300 years ago, and then we have the problem of new nations emerging with tremendous power like China and India that have to be fitted into the international system. That's more like pre-World War I in Europe and this gives us an opportunity really to do something that was done right after World War II. To create an international system that will hold for 50 years. That's a big challenge and at least as big as the revolutionary challenge.

DOBBS: Henry Kissinger, thanks for being here.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question do you believe the U.S. government should ever negotiate with terrorists, definitely, never or under certain conditions. Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have more later in the broadcast along with the results.

We'll also have more on the crisis in the Middle East. President Bush encouraging Israel to pull out of Gaza just days before a key meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Israel's consul-general Alon Pinkas joins us next. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: President Bush and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said today they would welcome an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says he will evacuate 20 Israeli settlements in Gaza but Prime Minister Sharon also wants to maintain control of the major settlements in the West Bank. Prime Minister Sharon meets with President Bush Wednesday. Joining me now Israeli consul-general in New York, Ambassador Alon Pinkas. Good to have you along with us.

When Ariel Sharon meets with Mr. Bush, will there be definitive -- is the intent to have definitive agreement about withdrawal or a schedule for withdrawal from Gaza?

AMB. ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL-GENERAL: Yes, but obviously, when you say definitive it's as if there's an agreement between Israel and the U.S. which is not the case. We are definitely intent on unilaterally disengaging from Gaza. We are intent on doing so in a way that is both consistent with the president's visit of a two-state solution and consistent with the world map that was published in 2003 and the president is obviously a -- under his auspices and with his signature on the bottom.

DOBBS: We have not heard much about the road map of late. It has been described variously as being now irrelevant, in tatters or forgotten. Where is it?

PINKAS: Exactly where you described it to be. The idea was, if you remember the president, President Bush's speech of the 24th of June, 2002, the idea was to create a new Palestinian leadership, not stained by terrorism, quote unquote, and to depose of Arafat or at least to trivialize and marginalize him. While that has happened to a degree a new Palestinian leadership that is capable and willing to negotiate with Israel did not emerge and there have been two successive Palestinian prime ministers who have failed to do the most basic and fundamental thing that we and the Americans have been asking them to do and that is clamp down on terrorism. In the absence of such a partner, in the absence of such a an incredible interlocutor, we've decided to do what is the best thing and right thing for Israel and that is to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza which is an idea incidentally that was flirted with and toyed with immediately after the Camp David summit of July 2000.

DOBBS: Mubarak, President Mubarak said that while he welcomes the idea of the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza that he's afraid it sets a stage of protracted difficult negotiations over the West Bank when he implies at least that he doesn't think there's any need for the negotiation, but also straightforward withdrawal from the West Bank. Why should that require difficult negotiations?

PINKAS: It shouldn't. Not necessarily and we've spoken about this, Lou, that in -- at Camp David in July of 2000, we and the Palestinians under the auspices of then President Clinton negotiated. It was tough. It was filled with obstacle. It was replete with problems, but we've negotiated. Had Egypt at the time been more helpful in encouraging the Palestinians in backing him, perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and, yes, I'm a diplomat and I'm not expected to nor should I criticize the Egyptians, but I think that the Egyptians' role, while lately has been very constructive and if you look in the perspective in the last two or three years, leaves a lot to be desired for.

DOBBS: Within the current context Mubarak apparently, apparently trying to be helpful at this point, Saudi Arabia has a role as does Jordan. To what degree are the Saudis being helpful and the Jordanians.

PINKAS: The Jordanians have always been helpful. The Jordanians have a vested interest here, 60 percent of the inhabitants of Jordan are Palestinians. Jordan used to control the West Bank, the Judea (ph) and Samaria (ph) and any agreement that we reach will affect Jordan. As for the Saudis, they're not being helpful, they never were helpful. I hope one day they will be helpful. I just can't see that day coming. I can see the Red Sox winning a World Series before the Saudis are helpful.

DOBBS: To put that in something other than baseball terms without the help of the Saudis, is there any real prospect here for a regional reproachment between the Israelis, the Palestinians, the Arab states and the states of Israel?

PINKAS: Yes. Yes. If you put it in a larger context per your question, what the U.S. is doing in Iraq, the isolation of Syria and to an extent Saudi Arabia, although obviously this is not the same case, the pro-Western tendencies of and inclinations of the Gulf states, Egypt and Jordan and Turkey which is not Arab, but Muslim serving as a model that Islam and democracy are not, are not incompatible, I can see something happening in the Middle East. For that you need to be successful in Iraq for everyone's sake and we need to be successful with the Palestinians for everyone's sake.

DOBBS: Ambassador Pinkas, thank you very much.

PINKAS: Thank you, Lou.

Still ahead here, Senator Kerry measures what he calls the misery of the middle class. In making the grade, why the worst teachers in this country often wind up teaching the neediest students. We begin a new series of special reports this week on the state of education in America. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This week we begin a series of special reports on the challenges facing this country's public schools and they are daunting indeed. Schools in lower income areas are often staffed with the most inexperienced teachers. Some administrators are trying to change that. But until they find a way to recruit and to retain more qualified teachers, the students in those schools will suffer.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ninety percent of students in this country go to public schools. But the quality of that education varies. Even the U.S. Department of Education will admit bad schools often employ inferior teachers.

CAROLYN SNOWBARGER, U.S. DEPT. OF ED TEACHER QUALITY: We are finding out that minority students and those in high poverty areas are less likely to have a teacher who is qualified, less likely to have a teacher who is fully certified and often those teachers are less experienced.

PILGRIM: Less than half of teach verse a master's degree. A study by the U.S. Department of Education found teachers who were at the bottom of their class in college ended up in the poorer school, taught lower grades in public schools where half of the students are from low income families. Teachers who scored in the top quarter of SATs and had higher grades in college tended to work in private schools and at the high school level.

Why the two-tiered system, half of all teachers quit within five years, money plays a role, but many say it's because of lack of administrative backup.

ROB WEIL, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: You have to talk about not only the physical conditions in the inner city schools which are sometimes abysmal, but you also have to talk about the support they get from the administration or the school board to do a tough job.

PILGRIM: With high teacher turnover in poor schools, kids lose out. A teacher's skill increases dramatically each year for the first five years of teaches, but many are leaving well before that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now in some states, school administrators are trying to rebalance the quality of education, offering bonuses for teaching in low-income schools and wealthier schools are offering teaching assistants and mentors to help a new teacher out -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you. Turning to "Tonight's Thought" on the power and influence on education. Education then, beyond all other devices of human origin is the great equalizer of the conditions of men, the balance wheel of the social machinery." That from American educator Horace Mann.

On Wall Street today stocks opened the week with solid gains. The Dow up 73 points, the Nasdaq up 12, the S&P up almost 6. Discourage news about tonight about rising gasoline prices are going higher.

Christine Romans, is here with a report.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Gas prices are through the roof. The government says we now pay on average $1.79 for a gallon of gas in this country and will spike another 20 cents this summer. Gasoline futures today hit an all-time high. Reformulated gasoline inventory 16 percent below a year ago and crude oil prices near $38 a barrel again. Supplies are slowly building from 30-year lows, but prices are staying hot. In the stock market, Exxon Mobil was the biggest contributor to the S&P 500 game and Dupont shares pushed the Dow higher as it outlined deep, deep job cuts. Dupont slashing 3,500 positions as it grapples with the higher raw materials prices. It wants to save $900 million in fixed costs by 2005 says higher energy costs adding $100 million a year to the bottom line.

DOBBS: So they're cutting jobs because raw product prices are going higher.

ROMANS: Among other reasons, but yes. It's grappling with higher raw materials prices.

DOBBS: It sounds like they have other things to grapple with in addition to that. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.

Senator Kerry today said the White House is squeezing this countries middle class. The Kerry campaign since President Bush took office, the price of health care and gasoline has soared while American incomes have been stagnant. The campaign released what it called the Middle Class Misery Index. Now, this is different from the old Carter misery index. This new one tracks several indicators including median income, the cost of health care and energy, and the price of a college education. The Kerry campaign says the middle class misery index has fallen 13 points since President Bush took office. In response the Bush/Cheney campaign spokesman, the Economy is growing at fastest rate in 20 years.

Taking a look now at some of "Your Thought."

Gail Rubio of Brea, California, "Lou, both candidates have forgotten or perhaps never knew the first rule of management: promise little or nothing, deliver considerably more."

Bruce Fisher wrote, "So workers here are more productive. If we are less productive will we have more jobs? If so, I will do less at work starting tomorrow morning."

Prafull Shah, Valdosta, Georgia, "Globalization is here. That's why we read and hear about Fallujah instead of Florida, Bangalore instead of Birmingham, Afghanistan instead of Atlanta, and Iran instead of Iowa."

On "Broken Borders" John Carr of Lake Placid, Florida. "After watching your reporting of the illegal immigration problems, I can't help but to wonder, how is it that a country which can keep track of a cow from it's inception to its' discovery as a carrier of the Mad Cow disease, can't keep track of an illegal immigrant who wanders the streets freely?"

Charles Smith of Helena, Montana. "We need to protect our border two ways: keep illegal aliens out and keep our corporations with all the jobs that made this country great -- in." We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com. We'll return with the results of our poll, but first a reminder to check our Web site for the complete list of companies that we confirmed to be "Exporting America," cnn.com/lou. We'll be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll. Nine percent of you said the U.S. Government should definitely negotiate with terrorists, 47 percent of you said absolutely never and 44 percent of you said under certain conditions. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Please join us tomorrow.

"Making the Grade," education in America. Tomorrow night the real cost to our children of cutting what many people would think would be an expendable subject, music from the curriculum, including facts that will surprise you. And Middle East scholar Stephen Cohen joins us to talk about the latest efforts to bring peace to the Middle East.

Please join us. For all of us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 12, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, April is already the deadliest month of combat for American troops in Iraq, since the start of the war. And a top U.S. general today admitted he needs more troops in Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I've asked for is essentially to have a strong mobile combat arms capability.

DOBBS: The Bush administration says the war in Iraq is not another Vietnam. A former CIA Middle East specialist gives us his assessment.

President Bush today discussed the Middle East crisis with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. The council general of Israel, Alon Pinkas, is our guest.

A year ago, the Bush administration said America's new policy in the Middle East was one of democratization. Tonight, I'll talk about the challenges to American power and foreign policy with the former secretary of state, Henry Kissinger.

An astonishing breakdown in airport security. One hundred thirty illegal aliens board commercial aircraft in Los Angeles and fly to the East Coast. And a growing crisis facing this country's public schools. Tonight, our special report, "Making the Grade: Education in America."

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, for Monday, April 12. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight, American troops in Iraq are facing the toughest month of the war so far. At least 76 Americans have been killed in combat this month, more than any other month since the war began. The coalition says U.S. troops have killed 700 insurgents over the same period.

Jim Clancy reports from Baghdad -- Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: First to that troubled spot here in the Sunni triangle, Lou. There are talks ongoing in Fallujah to try to disengage and win a cease-fire between the U.S. Marines and the Fallujah insurgents. There is also talk under way in the southern city of Najaf between representatives of the radical Shia leader, Muqtada al-Sadr, and Iraqi members of the Governing Council and other negotiators that are there trying to avert a crisis.

The U.S. moved into one of the southern cities that his Mehdi army, Muqtada al-Sadr's militia, tried to take over. They did take it over, in fact, but the U.S. has taken that city of Kut, about 100 miles southeast of Baghdad, completely back over, and U.S. forces were patrolling the streets. Some Iraqi police seen along with them, although they did not perform very well when the militia initially went in there.

We are also hearing there is a deal reached in Najaf between the police chief and a representative of Muqtada al-Sadr for al-Sadr's militia to pull out of police stations and government stations there. Problem with that deal, Lou, and the problem is this: They want the U.S. military to pull back its forces. That's not likely. Same problem with Fallujah. That's what's going in Najaf right now, a very important, very holy city for the majority Shia Muslims of Iraq.

Meantime, supply lines and convoys got battered again on Monday. There was one vehicle hit west of Baghdad, in the airport road area. The truck was burning, on fire, after it had been hit apparently by a rocket-propelled grenade. The looters converged on it almost instantly, as Iraqi police looked on.

Also, another supply line hit, south of Baghdad, near Iskandariya. It was about 20 miles south of the capital city. That convoy set alight. There were some armored personnel carriers on board. The U.S. military saying it is doing everything possible to try to clean up a couple of key areas here that are causing a lot of problems. These convoys that have been hit, a major source for insurgents to snatch truck drivers, or military people off of those convoys. They're trying to make this situation more secure, Lou. The job isn't easy. They've still got a lot to do.

DOBBS: Jim, thank you very much. Jim Clancy, reporting live from Baghdad.

The Iraqi insurgents have adopted a new and to this point highly effective strategy in their war against the coalition. The insurgents are now kidnapping foreign nationals and trying to use them for leverage in negotiations with the U.S. military.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): Today, the U.S. military revealed more kidnappings of Americans.

GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. COMMANDER, IRAQ: We've got two American soldiers that are unaccounted for at this point, and we also have seven KBR employees that are also unaccounted for.

DOBBS: All nine have been missing since an ambush in the Sunni triangle last week. One of the known hostages is Thomas Hamill, a driver for Kellogg, Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary. THOMAS HAMILL: They attacked our convoy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to give us your name?

HAMILL: Hamill. Thomas.

DOBBS: Hamill said he was the only survivor of the attack on the convoy. Residents of Hamill's hometown are doing what they can for his family.

DOROTHY BAKER HINES, MAYOR OF MACON: We're going to show him our support by anything. We're going to have flags up, yellow ribbons, a prayer vigil. And we will continue to keep him in prayer.

DOBBS: Halliburton issued this statement, saying: "We at Halliburton and KBR remain anxious, but prayerful that our colleague, Thomas Hamill, will be returned safely. Our thoughts remain with our six other missing colleagues and the personnel assisting with the search-and-rescue effort and we remain hopeful for other co-workers' safe return"; 30 people working for Halliburton and its subcontractors have been killed in the region.

In Japan, Vice President Dick Cheney told Prime Minister Koizumi the U.S. supports his handling of the Japanese hostage situation. There is still no word on the fate of three Japanese hostages in Iraq who were to be burned alive if Japan did not withdraw its troops by Sunday.

Two Arabs are also being held. China reports seven of its citizens were released today after being taken hostage over the weekend. British national Gary Teeley, who was kidnapped last week, was released yesterday. Teeley said he feared for his life.

GARY TEELEY, RELEASED HOSTAGE: I would say there was two or three different incidences where I thought this was the time, this is no more and this is where it all stops.

DOBBS: Three Czech journalists have been reported missing since yesterday and two German embassy guards missing from an attack Wednesday are now presumed dead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And now comes late word that 11 Russian contractors have been kidnapped in Baghdad. The electric power company they worked for, Interenergo Service, said no demands have been made.

The head of Central Command, General John Abizaid, today admitted he needs more troops in Iraq. The general said he wants another two combat brigades. That's about 10,000 more troops.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as we reported first here last Friday, most of those troops will come from extending the tour of the 1st Armored Division, which was scheduled to rotate out of Iraq about this time, but instead has been told that about half the division, roughly 10,000 troops, may be staying for another three months.

Technically, the request is coming back to the Pentagon for review. Today, a Pentagon source says there was a meeting of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in a secure briefing here in the Pentagon to discuss the troop rotation plan. The key question is whether this will be some additional troops sent from the U.S. and whether they may need to come up with an additional plan to provide troops after this three-month period is over.

This is also underscored by the fact that the Pentagon, the U.S. military is experiencing problems with the poor performance of some of the Iraqi police and troops. While many of them, we're told, are serving with distinction, there are several cases, including Iraq's 2nd Battalion, which refused to go to Fallujah to join Marines in fighting there. That came after a breakdown in Baghdad when militia loyal to the anti-U.S. cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, seized control of police stations and none of the local Iraqi police resisted them.

Today, U.S. commanders admitted this was a problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Some of them did very well and some of them did not. And in the south, a number of units both in the police force and also in the ICDC did not stand up to the intimidators of the forces of Sadr's militia. And that was a great disappointment to us. In other places, such as in and around Fallujah, we've had good, strong performances by several units. And we're satisfied with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The U.S. hopes to stiffen the resistance and the determination of Iraqi military forces by putting more American special forces among their ranks and also replacing what they see as weak Iraqi leaders.

But one thing is clear, Lou, and that is the U.S. military will have to provide the front-line security well past the June 30 turnover date -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, any indication as to how soon the reinforcements can be provided American troops now in Iraq?

MCINTYRE: Well, those extra 10,000 troops are already in Iraq and pretty much the decision has been made for them to stay. Technically, it has to be signed off from the Pentagon. So for the immediate problem, General Abizaid has his 10,000 extra troops.

In fact, they're the ones they moved down to take control of Al Kut. But the question, what is he going to do down the road, particularly when the three months is up? That's something the Pentagon is still debating. DOBBS: Jamie, this begins to sound -- and the reason why I ask the question -- a little bit like Pentagon math. The general is asking for two more combat brigades and already has the troops that he's requesting. Make sense of that for us, will you?

MCINTYRE: Well, of course, these troops have been promised that their tour of duty would be one year. That's one of the things the Pentagon made a big deal about in relieving the stress on combat deployments, that there would be predictability.

What they've done now is taken that predictability away again for 10,000 troops who thought they would be going back to Germany. They all got letters from their commanding officer saying, sorry, looks like we need you to stay.

DOBBS: So, in summation, the general has asked for 10,000 more troops, 10,000 troops that are now under his command in Iraq and that is a solution?

MCINTYRE: Well, that's the temporary solution, but, again, the long-term solution is one that they're going to have to work on.

Of course, there were calls again this weekend to increase the size of the U.S. military. Senator John McCain made that statement. Also retired General Barry McCaffrey, a former four-star commander, also argued that the U.S. military needs 80,000 additional troops. The Pentagon continues to insist they don't think that's the long-term answer.

DOBBS: Any instinct there at the Pentagon as to when Rumsfeldian English is going to have to comport to that language the rest of us use and the mathematics of the Pentagon is going to have to follow the two-plus-two-equals-four dictum?

MCINTYRE: Well, I think Rumsfeld would take issue with that.

But let me just say that I think that's an issue that is going to be decided, as they say, at the Pentagon, above my pay grade. You know, getting into parsing what Rumsfeld is saying, what the military is saying, what Congress is saying, it's more than I can get into, I think.

DOBBS: Well, you do a tremendous and highly effective job, along with your colleague, Barbara Starr, each day in the effort. And we thank you, Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

President Bush today said the situation in Iraq is improving. President Bush said the United States cannot allow a small number of Iraqis to determine the future of everyone. President Bush made his remarks at a news conference with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in Crawford, Texas.

Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: During that meeting, Lou, President Hosni Mubarak said that he conveyed to President Bush serious concern about the current situation in Iraq, particularly with regard to security and humanitarian efforts in that country.

Now, Hosni Mubarak also stressed to President Bush, he says, the importance of restoring Iraq's sovereignty as soon as possible. And the Egyptian leader said that recent efforts to increase the role of the United Nations are an important step that should be further encouraged.

For his part, President Bush said the U.S.-led coalition is working with the U.N. to transfer political power to the Iraqi people. That deadline is still set for June 30, but the president has maintained even after the handover, U.S. and coalition forces will remain in Iraq to help with security while the new government tries to take root.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But you're right. It was a tough week because there was lawlessness and gangs that were trying to take the law in their own hands. These were people that were trying to make a statement prior to the transfer of sovereignty that they would get to decide the fate of Iraq through violence. A civil society, a peaceful society can't grow with people who are willing to kill in order to stop progress.

And our job is to provide security for the Iraqi people so that a transition can take place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, the two presidents also discussed the possible Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, ahead of a planned visit by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to the White House, that set to take place on Wednesday.

Also today President Bush announced that he will be holding a formal news conference tomorrow night at 8:30 Eastern time, that set to be just his 12th formal news conference since he took office -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Elaine Quijano from the White House.

Still ahead here, U.S. military commanders say they will kill or capture the rebel Iraqi cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr. Former CIA Middle East specialist Reuel Marc Gerecht is s my guest.

President Bush and President Hosni Mubarak today talked about prospects of peace and democracy in the Middle East. Next up at the White House, Ariel Sharon. I'll be talking with Israel's consul general, Alon Pinkas.

And in "Broken Borders" tonight, 130 illegal aliens enter the country and incredibly passed through security checks and then fly from Los Angeles to the East Coast. We'll have a report.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The commander of American troops in Iraq, General Ricardo Sanchez, today said the U.S. military will kill or capture the rebel Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

My guest tonight says al-Sadr's rebellion is a warning both for the United States and the Shiite clergy led by Ayatollah Sistani.

Reuel Marc Gerecht is a former CIA Middle East specialist, now a resident follow at the American Enterprise Institute, joining us tonight from Washington.

Good to have you here, Reuel.

Let me ask you first, we have negotiations going on with al-Sadr and his people at the same time the command of U.S. military forces saying they're going to kill or capture Sadr. How do you square that off?

REUEL MARC GERECHT, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Well, I think the negotiations, really, are going to be -- are between grand Ayatollah ali Sistani, the preeminent cleric in Iraq, and Mr. Sadr. That's the first negotiation that has to roll through. After that, I think we'll have to see whether Mr. Sadr will voluntarily leave Najaf.

If he doesn't leave Najaf, then the Americans I don't think will be able to seize him or kill him.

DOBBS: Then, for what reason would he possibly leave?

GERECHT: Well, it depends. I mean, the Sistani has actually thrown the Sadriyun, his followers, out of Najaf before.

This is not the first time that they've had a head-on collision. And, actually, I think it's the third time. They had a problem in the summer. They also had a problem in October, when Sadr attempted to the establish his own government and now more intensely is now. I think Sadr will want to stay in Najaf. Certainly if he intends to continue his attempt at an insurrection, the place to do it is in Najaf, because he can undermine Sistani there. And obviously, the American troops are not going to go into the holy city.

DOBBS: Give us your best assessment. President Bush today said things are improving, referencing, as did the Department of Defense, to a bad week last week. How big is this uprising as a challenge to U.S. security in Iraq?

GERECHT: I don't think Mr. Sadr's attempt to foment a Shiite insurrection is really much of a threat. I think what -- contrary to a lot of commentary that we've heard in the last week, I think his attempt actually shows quite clearly that the vast majority of the Shiites, including the major Shiite militias, actually have chosen to continue their cooperation with the United States.

If that were not the case, you would see hundreds of American soldiers dead, not the, you know, around 60, I believe. So I think the evidence is quite clear that he has failed. Now it's an issue really between first and foremost as I said between Sistani and Sadr or whether -- excuse me.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Reuel, let me ask, you because that's quite a statement to say it would be hundreds, rather than dozens of Americans killed. Not even with full force could the Iraqi army inflict hundreds of casualties against the United States. Why would we expect, why would you suggest that organized militias could inflict that kind of casualty rate against U.S. forces?

GERECHT: Because the primary reason is, those casualties primarily come through urban warfare. And it's quite different from trying to confront the United States Army out in the open field, where you have not much of a chance at all and then trying to get them into some type of Mogadishu.

I think if you had thousands -- I mean, take for example the major Shiite militia, the Badr Brigade, which is part of the Supreme Council For the Islam Revolution in Iraq, it is estimated to have at least 10,000 members. If those 10,000 members were to start engaging in urban warfare against us, we'd have very serious trouble.

DOBBS: So what I hear you saying is that you don't think the U.S. and the coalition should go about disarming Iraqis at any stage here because of the potential of heavy, heavy casualties as a result of urban warfare.

GERECHT: Well, I think, in retrospect, even at the time, I think the United States should have made a much more aggressive effort to do that several months ago. We did not. And now we're in a bit of a predicament.

I think there needs to be -- the issue of the militias need to be brought up. They need to be publicly debated. You need to get the Iraqis themselves involved. But I think the odds obviously in the short term of those militias being disbanded or disarmed are very slight.

DOBBS: And, very quickly, General Abizaid today said clearly there is support for al-Sadr from Syria and from Iran. The potential for further complication there?

GERECHT: Yes.

I think it's quite clear if the surrounding countries, particularly Iran and Syria, choose to get involved in this, the United States has to send a very clear and strong message that it can't be tolerated. The Iranians in particular could cause a great deal of trouble. It's entirely possible they've already been sending money to a variety of folks inside of Iraq. And if they were to turn up the heat, I think the United States would have to respond very quickly or we could have a very difficult situation on our hands.

DOBBS: Reuel Marc Gerecht, we thank you very much for being with us here.

GERECHT: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Turning to our poll tonight, the question, do you believe the U.S. government should ever negotiate with terrorists, definitely, never or under certain conditions? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou.

We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

We'll also be talking with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger about challenges to American power and policy not only in the Middle East, but throughout the world.

And disturbing findings at this major airports. The illegal aliens not just at the country's borders, but flying coast to coast. We'll have a special report.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: For the second time in four days, customs agents have captured and arrested dozens of illegal aliens at Newark Liberty Airport. The illegal aliens were detained after they had flown across the country from California.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When passengers on Continental Flight 1803 from Los Angeles to Newark got off the plane Thursday, customs and border agents were waiting for them at the gate; 88 illegal aliens were detained. On Saturday, 42 more illegal aliens were stopped traveling on a Continental and American Airlines flight on the same route.

The Department of Homeland Security is investigating how the passengers were able to board the planes. They may have used Mexican matricula cards, which are accepted as valid forms of I.D. by the Transportation Security Administration. Peter Gadiel, whose son died in the 9/11 attacks, says the U.S. government needs tougher screening standards.

PETER GADIEL, LOST SON ON 9/11: The people who pulled off the 9/11 hijackings used airplanes for their weapons of mass destruction. And what we have here is a case of 88 illegal aliens on one airplane. I don't think it take much imagination to extend this from this event to a bunch -- if some of these were terrorists to another 9/11. I mean, it's just -- it's absurd. It's absurd.

SYLVESTER: The Department of Homeland Security says TSA does not have the authority to enforce immigration laws. In a statement, the department says airplane security was not jeopardized because each of the 88 passengers was checked against the no-fly list, presented government-issued photo identification that matched the name on the boarding pass. They each went through a screening checkpoint.

Pro-immigration groups are criticizing the government for profiling Hispanics.

FATHER JOEL MAGALLANES, IMMIGRANT ACTIVIST: They were arrested, those people who were traveling and also those people who coming to pick up their passengers.

SYLVESTER: Immigration and customs enforcement officials believe smugglers may be trying different routes now that security has been tightened along the Arizona border. Instead of traveling by land, it may be easier to take a flight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: The Department of Homeland Security initially proposed including immigration status in the new airport prescreening program called CAPPS-2, so, if someone's immigration information did not check out, it would automatically be red-flagged.

But privacy groups said this was going too far. In response, the proposal was dropped. And, Lou, even though CAPPS-2 has not been finalized, an immigration status check is not likely to happen at this point -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester from Washington.

Still ahead here, uprising in Iraq. The latest wave of violence is complicating the Bush administration's vision of democracy, not only in Iraq, but across the Middle East. I'll be talking about U.S. strategy with former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger.

Also, making the grade, education in America, our special report tonight on where the best and worst teachers in the country end up working and why.

Stay with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: No less than three months before the handover of power is schedule in Iraq, coalition forces are set to hand over control of the country on June 30, but it's still far from clear who will then be in charge. And the rising violence across Iraq is making that question all the more difficult.

Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the violent insurgency exploded across Iraq in recent days, top U.S. officials still admitted they do not know who will take over power on June 30.

DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: As to who we hand over sovereignty to, we are working that out right now.

STARR: Still the Bush administration is determined to stick to its plan.

COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We will continue to drive ahead with that work. There's no point delaying it.

STARR: The pressure is on. By May 30 an interim government is to be chosen. On June 30 it will take power. It will be operational one month later. The United Nations adviser Lakhdar Brahimi is trying to broker an agreement between the Iraq governing council and various factions including the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani for an interim government that could take power. The current violence has not helped. The leading option, the U.S. turns over authority to an expanded version of the Iraq governing council.

KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani himself has already said that if that is the course that the U.S. takes that that governing council, that interim government will have no legitimacy and will have no authority.

STARR: U.S. officials feel the violence makes the turnover even more important. A new Iraqi government may lessen resentment against the U.S. occupation. As for the U.S. military it will stay in Iraq after June 30 trying to stabilize the security situation and give the fragile Iraqi political process a chance to flourish. Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Iraq, as difficult as the situation is now, is only one of the challenges facing U.S. foreign policy. From North Korea to China, Russia, Iran, Syria, American power and policy is being challenged. Joining me now one of the foremost policy thinkers and diplomats of the past four decades, former secretary of state Henry Kissinger. Good to have you here.

Let me begin with Iraq. A handover on June 30. Ambassador Paul Bremer himself says he doesn't know who they will hand over power to nor is there any idea as to who will succeed Bremer himself. What's your reaction?

HENRY KISSINGER, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, the basic problem is can the Iraqis agree on how they are going to govern themselves. The June 30 deadline is one we established on a hopeful basis, but the fundamental problem is can these three groups, Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis agree on a government? If they can't agree on a government by June 30 it's really more their problem than our problem for the time being. Then, if this keeps up maybe Iraq will go the way of Yugoslavia and break up into three pieces.

DOBBS: And that has been -- actually been a suggestion, an idea advocated by a number of people. What is your thought?

KISSINGER: I'm not advocating it, but I think we should make clear that we are doing this to help the Iraqi people govern themselves. If they're not able right thou to agree on how to govern themselves we will have to maintain order for a while because we have the fundamental interest that Iraq does not turn into an Afghanistan. A black hole in which terrorist groups can organize.

DOBBS: Is it not remarkable that we've moved from the pronouncements of the Bush administration more than a year ago that democratization of the Middle East would be the policy of the United States. Democracy in Iraq would be the goal to a point where Henry Kissinger has to say we have to make certain it doesn't turn into a black hole. Are we that far from a positive influence and realignment in the Middle East.

KISSINGER: No, we're not that far from it. I'm saying that to get a sense of perspective so that this doesn't look as if it's the policy of one particular administration. I support it and continue to support the basic policy in Iraq but I don't think we should get caught up in our own pronouncements. We want democracy. We want to give them a chance to produce democracy, but we have other options.

DOBBS: Like what?

KISSINGER: Like maintaining order, preventing terrorist organizations from organizing and letting the domestic evolution take its course. It's not my preferred course. My preferred course is to see whether -- it's to make a maximum effort to create a government, when we say create a government it means to encourage people that we have liberated to work together.

DOBBS: By any standard it is unprecedentedly ambitious to try to put in place a democracy within a year, a little more than a year of having invaded a country and deposed a regime.

KISSINGER: It's not possible within a year. It took us seven years before we had a sovereign government in Germany after military occupation and the same number of years in Japan. In one year we're not going to get a Democratic government. In one year what we can do is get the beginning of representative government and that is within our reach and that is how I interpret what the administration is trying to do.

DOBBS: What the administration's trying to do on occasion does require some interpretation. The fact is democratization in the Middle East as a pronouncement and enunciation by this administration results in a meeting today between Hosni Mubarak who is hardly a Democratic leader of the people of Egypt expressing views on Gaza in advance of Ariel Sharon's visit in two days. A Middle East peace process that is in at least -- has been moved to the backburner, if I can use that cliche. It has hardly been advanced to this point. Is there any hope for an actual success in the Middle East on any front, whether it be the road map to peace, Iraq in the short term, a realignment of interests in the Middle East to conform to the idea of democracy in the Middle East?

KISSINGER: I want to return to what I said before. Our eagerness is not the only element that is needed to produce peace or to produce progress in Iraq. To produce peace between the Palestinians and Israel there needs to be a willingness on both sides to make major moves. On the Israeli side, actually I think the beginning of agreeing to give up settlements is...

DOBBS: In Gaza?

KISSINGER: In Gaza, but it gives one the idea that one could imagine that a line is drawn on the West Bank that is compatible with Israel's security, not too far from where the present line is, with a settlement on the other side of that line being on Arab territory or being moved out on the Palestinian side, it requires a genuine acceptance of an Israeli state.

DOBBS: Right.

KISSINGER: Which they have never really brought themselves to do. So I actually think that if people like Mubarak and the Europeans were to help and were to be a little more flexible about some of these lines that significant progress is possible.

DOBBS: Of course, you put that in the normative, Mubarak being helpful, the Europeans being helpful...

KISSINGER: That is not happening now.

DOBBS: Right. Turning to other challenges. Taiwan, China. That has not obviously been a resolved issue, a contest, the emergence of India as a significant counterweight apparently in the view, again requiring some interpretation, but it appears this administration has decided there will be a counterweight to Chinese influence in the region. Give us your best judgment about the success, at least in that policy.

KISSINGER: I think it's a mistake to play that sort of balance of power game. India by its nature will be a weight and we don't have to make it a weight. We have two sets of problems. The one you raised about Iraq in the Middle East which is sort of a revolutionary- type problem similar to the 30-year war in Europe 300 years ago, and then we have the problem of new nations emerging with tremendous power like China and India that have to be fitted into the international system. That's more like pre-World War I in Europe and this gives us an opportunity really to do something that was done right after World War II. To create an international system that will hold for 50 years. That's a big challenge and at least as big as the revolutionary challenge.

DOBBS: Henry Kissinger, thanks for being here.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question do you believe the U.S. government should ever negotiate with terrorists, definitely, never or under certain conditions. Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll have more later in the broadcast along with the results.

We'll also have more on the crisis in the Middle East. President Bush encouraging Israel to pull out of Gaza just days before a key meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Israel's consul-general Alon Pinkas joins us next. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: President Bush and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said today they would welcome an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says he will evacuate 20 Israeli settlements in Gaza but Prime Minister Sharon also wants to maintain control of the major settlements in the West Bank. Prime Minister Sharon meets with President Bush Wednesday. Joining me now Israeli consul-general in New York, Ambassador Alon Pinkas. Good to have you along with us.

When Ariel Sharon meets with Mr. Bush, will there be definitive -- is the intent to have definitive agreement about withdrawal or a schedule for withdrawal from Gaza?

AMB. ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL-GENERAL: Yes, but obviously, when you say definitive it's as if there's an agreement between Israel and the U.S. which is not the case. We are definitely intent on unilaterally disengaging from Gaza. We are intent on doing so in a way that is both consistent with the president's visit of a two-state solution and consistent with the world map that was published in 2003 and the president is obviously a -- under his auspices and with his signature on the bottom.

DOBBS: We have not heard much about the road map of late. It has been described variously as being now irrelevant, in tatters or forgotten. Where is it?

PINKAS: Exactly where you described it to be. The idea was, if you remember the president, President Bush's speech of the 24th of June, 2002, the idea was to create a new Palestinian leadership, not stained by terrorism, quote unquote, and to depose of Arafat or at least to trivialize and marginalize him. While that has happened to a degree a new Palestinian leadership that is capable and willing to negotiate with Israel did not emerge and there have been two successive Palestinian prime ministers who have failed to do the most basic and fundamental thing that we and the Americans have been asking them to do and that is clamp down on terrorism. In the absence of such a partner, in the absence of such a an incredible interlocutor, we've decided to do what is the best thing and right thing for Israel and that is to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza which is an idea incidentally that was flirted with and toyed with immediately after the Camp David summit of July 2000.

DOBBS: Mubarak, President Mubarak said that while he welcomes the idea of the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza that he's afraid it sets a stage of protracted difficult negotiations over the West Bank when he implies at least that he doesn't think there's any need for the negotiation, but also straightforward withdrawal from the West Bank. Why should that require difficult negotiations?

PINKAS: It shouldn't. Not necessarily and we've spoken about this, Lou, that in -- at Camp David in July of 2000, we and the Palestinians under the auspices of then President Clinton negotiated. It was tough. It was filled with obstacle. It was replete with problems, but we've negotiated. Had Egypt at the time been more helpful in encouraging the Palestinians in backing him, perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and, yes, I'm a diplomat and I'm not expected to nor should I criticize the Egyptians, but I think that the Egyptians' role, while lately has been very constructive and if you look in the perspective in the last two or three years, leaves a lot to be desired for.

DOBBS: Within the current context Mubarak apparently, apparently trying to be helpful at this point, Saudi Arabia has a role as does Jordan. To what degree are the Saudis being helpful and the Jordanians.

PINKAS: The Jordanians have always been helpful. The Jordanians have a vested interest here, 60 percent of the inhabitants of Jordan are Palestinians. Jordan used to control the West Bank, the Judea (ph) and Samaria (ph) and any agreement that we reach will affect Jordan. As for the Saudis, they're not being helpful, they never were helpful. I hope one day they will be helpful. I just can't see that day coming. I can see the Red Sox winning a World Series before the Saudis are helpful.

DOBBS: To put that in something other than baseball terms without the help of the Saudis, is there any real prospect here for a regional reproachment between the Israelis, the Palestinians, the Arab states and the states of Israel?

PINKAS: Yes. Yes. If you put it in a larger context per your question, what the U.S. is doing in Iraq, the isolation of Syria and to an extent Saudi Arabia, although obviously this is not the same case, the pro-Western tendencies of and inclinations of the Gulf states, Egypt and Jordan and Turkey which is not Arab, but Muslim serving as a model that Islam and democracy are not, are not incompatible, I can see something happening in the Middle East. For that you need to be successful in Iraq for everyone's sake and we need to be successful with the Palestinians for everyone's sake.

DOBBS: Ambassador Pinkas, thank you very much.

PINKAS: Thank you, Lou.

Still ahead here, Senator Kerry measures what he calls the misery of the middle class. In making the grade, why the worst teachers in this country often wind up teaching the neediest students. We begin a new series of special reports this week on the state of education in America. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This week we begin a series of special reports on the challenges facing this country's public schools and they are daunting indeed. Schools in lower income areas are often staffed with the most inexperienced teachers. Some administrators are trying to change that. But until they find a way to recruit and to retain more qualified teachers, the students in those schools will suffer.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ninety percent of students in this country go to public schools. But the quality of that education varies. Even the U.S. Department of Education will admit bad schools often employ inferior teachers.

CAROLYN SNOWBARGER, U.S. DEPT. OF ED TEACHER QUALITY: We are finding out that minority students and those in high poverty areas are less likely to have a teacher who is qualified, less likely to have a teacher who is fully certified and often those teachers are less experienced.

PILGRIM: Less than half of teach verse a master's degree. A study by the U.S. Department of Education found teachers who were at the bottom of their class in college ended up in the poorer school, taught lower grades in public schools where half of the students are from low income families. Teachers who scored in the top quarter of SATs and had higher grades in college tended to work in private schools and at the high school level.

Why the two-tiered system, half of all teachers quit within five years, money plays a role, but many say it's because of lack of administrative backup.

ROB WEIL, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: You have to talk about not only the physical conditions in the inner city schools which are sometimes abysmal, but you also have to talk about the support they get from the administration or the school board to do a tough job.

PILGRIM: With high teacher turnover in poor schools, kids lose out. A teacher's skill increases dramatically each year for the first five years of teaches, but many are leaving well before that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now in some states, school administrators are trying to rebalance the quality of education, offering bonuses for teaching in low-income schools and wealthier schools are offering teaching assistants and mentors to help a new teacher out -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you. Turning to "Tonight's Thought" on the power and influence on education. Education then, beyond all other devices of human origin is the great equalizer of the conditions of men, the balance wheel of the social machinery." That from American educator Horace Mann.

On Wall Street today stocks opened the week with solid gains. The Dow up 73 points, the Nasdaq up 12, the S&P up almost 6. Discourage news about tonight about rising gasoline prices are going higher.

Christine Romans, is here with a report.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Gas prices are through the roof. The government says we now pay on average $1.79 for a gallon of gas in this country and will spike another 20 cents this summer. Gasoline futures today hit an all-time high. Reformulated gasoline inventory 16 percent below a year ago and crude oil prices near $38 a barrel again. Supplies are slowly building from 30-year lows, but prices are staying hot. In the stock market, Exxon Mobil was the biggest contributor to the S&P 500 game and Dupont shares pushed the Dow higher as it outlined deep, deep job cuts. Dupont slashing 3,500 positions as it grapples with the higher raw materials prices. It wants to save $900 million in fixed costs by 2005 says higher energy costs adding $100 million a year to the bottom line.

DOBBS: So they're cutting jobs because raw product prices are going higher.

ROMANS: Among other reasons, but yes. It's grappling with higher raw materials prices.

DOBBS: It sounds like they have other things to grapple with in addition to that. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.

Senator Kerry today said the White House is squeezing this countries middle class. The Kerry campaign since President Bush took office, the price of health care and gasoline has soared while American incomes have been stagnant. The campaign released what it called the Middle Class Misery Index. Now, this is different from the old Carter misery index. This new one tracks several indicators including median income, the cost of health care and energy, and the price of a college education. The Kerry campaign says the middle class misery index has fallen 13 points since President Bush took office. In response the Bush/Cheney campaign spokesman, the Economy is growing at fastest rate in 20 years.

Taking a look now at some of "Your Thought."

Gail Rubio of Brea, California, "Lou, both candidates have forgotten or perhaps never knew the first rule of management: promise little or nothing, deliver considerably more."

Bruce Fisher wrote, "So workers here are more productive. If we are less productive will we have more jobs? If so, I will do less at work starting tomorrow morning."

Prafull Shah, Valdosta, Georgia, "Globalization is here. That's why we read and hear about Fallujah instead of Florida, Bangalore instead of Birmingham, Afghanistan instead of Atlanta, and Iran instead of Iowa."

On "Broken Borders" John Carr of Lake Placid, Florida. "After watching your reporting of the illegal immigration problems, I can't help but to wonder, how is it that a country which can keep track of a cow from it's inception to its' discovery as a carrier of the Mad Cow disease, can't keep track of an illegal immigrant who wanders the streets freely?"

Charles Smith of Helena, Montana. "We need to protect our border two ways: keep illegal aliens out and keep our corporations with all the jobs that made this country great -- in." We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com. We'll return with the results of our poll, but first a reminder to check our Web site for the complete list of companies that we confirmed to be "Exporting America," cnn.com/lou. We'll be right back. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll. Nine percent of you said the U.S. Government should definitely negotiate with terrorists, 47 percent of you said absolutely never and 44 percent of you said under certain conditions. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Please join us tomorrow.

"Making the Grade," education in America. Tomorrow night the real cost to our children of cutting what many people would think would be an expendable subject, music from the curriculum, including facts that will surprise you. And Middle East scholar Stephen Cohen joins us to talk about the latest efforts to bring peace to the Middle East.

Please join us. For all of us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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