Return to Transcripts main page
Your World Today
Interview With William Cohen
Aired April 20, 2004 - 11:50 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: For analysis now on the top stories of CNN, joining us now from Washington is a man with some insights into the questions raised by Bob Woodward's book, "Plan of Attack," former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen. Good to see you, Mr. Cohen.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Good to see you, Zain.
VERJEE: You met with Vice President Dick Cheney before President Bush's inauguration in January, and the discussion, much of it, centering on Iraq. What exactly was discussed with you then?
COHEN: Well, I received a call from the vice president's office, and he indicated he wanted a briefing to be given to the president. When the president came to -- president-elect, he has not been sworn in, but when he came to the Pentagon, along with his full team, Secretary Powell, Condoleezza Rice, vice president and Secretary Rumsfeld, all were at the Pentagon, and my office initially, and then into the so-called tank, where the chairman of the joint chiefs and the other joint chiefs were present.
It was indicated to me that Mr. Cheney wanted me to focus on the briefing, primarily about Iraq, and what our policy was toward Iraq, what our military analysis was, security analysis was, of Saddam Hussein at that time, and not to give a so-called around the world briefing, which is standard operating procedure for incoming presidents.
VERJEE: You had a war plan for Iraq too, though, when you were secretary of defense. What was your plan and why did Rumsfeld have to update it?
COHEN: Well, there are always plans in place. Initial plan was made back in the mid-'90s. It was updated at least once while I was at the Pentagon, and it had as many as 13 I think different options to use military force, depending upon what the circumstances were.
I should say that during the Clinton administration, there was no plan to attack Saddam Hussein in the absence of a provocation by him. In other words, containment was the policy, with the hope that he could be overthrown from within, that there could be regime change but coming from within, through revolution or an internal revolt, as opposed to an external war plan by the United States.
Had he moved against the neighbors, Kuwait or others, had he been successful in attacking U.S. warplanes, then there were plans to move immediately, very aggressively, against Saddam Hussein.
What President Bush obviously wanted was something more aggressive, namely in the absence of anything taking place on the part of Saddam towards his neighbors or against us, he wanted the plan updated so there could be a rather significant military operation conducted against him to remove him, and that's where the change was made.
VERJEE: All right. The Supreme Court today is considering a major question. Should foreign-born prisoners at Guantanamo Bay be allowed access to U.S. courts. Do you think they should be?
COHEN: Well, the Supreme Court needs to decide that issue in terms of the principle dispositive (ph) issues is jurisdiction. Does the court have jurisdiction to make such a decision? And I think that under the circumstances, if I had to guess, they're likely to come down and say that this is not U.S. territory, yes, it's a long term lease, but there is no jurisdiction on the part of the courts.
Whether -- I think that we will have to await the outcome of that, but I am just guessing at this point.
VERJEE: Right. The argument that's being made by administration lawyers is that allowing the detainees access to American federal courts would really undermine the U.S. military's ability to protect the country from attack. Do you think that that would be the case?
COHEN: Well, I listened to Secretary Rumsfeld's briefings, in terms of his beliefs that they are getting valuable information from the detainees, that they are enemy combatants, and that to simply either release them or provide them with counsel at this point would, in fact, jeopardize the ongoing operations in Iraq and elsewhere. And so that is an issue which obviously deserves serious consideration, as well as whether or not these individuals are being deprived of having an opportunity for counsel and a right of appeal from the incarceration.
So I am not in a position to make the legal judgment now, but these are the two principal arguments being waged.
VERJEE: Iraq, the agreement made in Fallujah with civic leaders there. Do you think it will hold? Do you think that civic leaders are the right people to be talking to, that they wield the kind of necessary influence over insurgents?
COHEN: Well, so far, it's holding, and I think we have to take it day by day. There seems to be some return to, quote, "normalcy," if one can use that expression with respect to what's going on there. But each day that goes by without a resumption of hostilities, I think that we're so much better off in terms of not seeing military personnel killed and not inflicting casualties upon the civilian individuals who are being killed in very significant numbers.
So I think it's day by day, and it's positive to date.
VERJEE: Joint policing efforts with Iraqi police and American troops there is one aspect of this deal. Do you think that's something that could work? That's something that could be effective? I mean, a lot of these Iraqi policemen don't want to be seen patrolling with the Americans, they don't -- they haven't in the past cracked down on insurgents?
COHEN: I think that's why it's so important that the United Nations is taking a much bigger role in trying to shape the new governing council or body, so to speak, that will be the interim political authority between now and -- between June 30 and when elections are held. I think that will help to change the attitudes so that Iraqi policemen and security personnel are not simply seen as working with, quote, "the occupying force." I think that will change somewhat as we -- as we see the turnover to United Nations authority as such, politically.
VERJEE: Former Defense Secretary William Cohen, in Washington, thank you.
COHEN: Pleasure.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 20, 2004 - 11:50:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: For analysis now on the top stories of CNN, joining us now from Washington is a man with some insights into the questions raised by Bob Woodward's book, "Plan of Attack," former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen. Good to see you, Mr. Cohen.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: Good to see you, Zain.
VERJEE: You met with Vice President Dick Cheney before President Bush's inauguration in January, and the discussion, much of it, centering on Iraq. What exactly was discussed with you then?
COHEN: Well, I received a call from the vice president's office, and he indicated he wanted a briefing to be given to the president. When the president came to -- president-elect, he has not been sworn in, but when he came to the Pentagon, along with his full team, Secretary Powell, Condoleezza Rice, vice president and Secretary Rumsfeld, all were at the Pentagon, and my office initially, and then into the so-called tank, where the chairman of the joint chiefs and the other joint chiefs were present.
It was indicated to me that Mr. Cheney wanted me to focus on the briefing, primarily about Iraq, and what our policy was toward Iraq, what our military analysis was, security analysis was, of Saddam Hussein at that time, and not to give a so-called around the world briefing, which is standard operating procedure for incoming presidents.
VERJEE: You had a war plan for Iraq too, though, when you were secretary of defense. What was your plan and why did Rumsfeld have to update it?
COHEN: Well, there are always plans in place. Initial plan was made back in the mid-'90s. It was updated at least once while I was at the Pentagon, and it had as many as 13 I think different options to use military force, depending upon what the circumstances were.
I should say that during the Clinton administration, there was no plan to attack Saddam Hussein in the absence of a provocation by him. In other words, containment was the policy, with the hope that he could be overthrown from within, that there could be regime change but coming from within, through revolution or an internal revolt, as opposed to an external war plan by the United States.
Had he moved against the neighbors, Kuwait or others, had he been successful in attacking U.S. warplanes, then there were plans to move immediately, very aggressively, against Saddam Hussein.
What President Bush obviously wanted was something more aggressive, namely in the absence of anything taking place on the part of Saddam towards his neighbors or against us, he wanted the plan updated so there could be a rather significant military operation conducted against him to remove him, and that's where the change was made.
VERJEE: All right. The Supreme Court today is considering a major question. Should foreign-born prisoners at Guantanamo Bay be allowed access to U.S. courts. Do you think they should be?
COHEN: Well, the Supreme Court needs to decide that issue in terms of the principle dispositive (ph) issues is jurisdiction. Does the court have jurisdiction to make such a decision? And I think that under the circumstances, if I had to guess, they're likely to come down and say that this is not U.S. territory, yes, it's a long term lease, but there is no jurisdiction on the part of the courts.
Whether -- I think that we will have to await the outcome of that, but I am just guessing at this point.
VERJEE: Right. The argument that's being made by administration lawyers is that allowing the detainees access to American federal courts would really undermine the U.S. military's ability to protect the country from attack. Do you think that that would be the case?
COHEN: Well, I listened to Secretary Rumsfeld's briefings, in terms of his beliefs that they are getting valuable information from the detainees, that they are enemy combatants, and that to simply either release them or provide them with counsel at this point would, in fact, jeopardize the ongoing operations in Iraq and elsewhere. And so that is an issue which obviously deserves serious consideration, as well as whether or not these individuals are being deprived of having an opportunity for counsel and a right of appeal from the incarceration.
So I am not in a position to make the legal judgment now, but these are the two principal arguments being waged.
VERJEE: Iraq, the agreement made in Fallujah with civic leaders there. Do you think it will hold? Do you think that civic leaders are the right people to be talking to, that they wield the kind of necessary influence over insurgents?
COHEN: Well, so far, it's holding, and I think we have to take it day by day. There seems to be some return to, quote, "normalcy," if one can use that expression with respect to what's going on there. But each day that goes by without a resumption of hostilities, I think that we're so much better off in terms of not seeing military personnel killed and not inflicting casualties upon the civilian individuals who are being killed in very significant numbers.
So I think it's day by day, and it's positive to date.
VERJEE: Joint policing efforts with Iraqi police and American troops there is one aspect of this deal. Do you think that's something that could work? That's something that could be effective? I mean, a lot of these Iraqi policemen don't want to be seen patrolling with the Americans, they don't -- they haven't in the past cracked down on insurgents?
COHEN: I think that's why it's so important that the United Nations is taking a much bigger role in trying to shape the new governing council or body, so to speak, that will be the interim political authority between now and -- between June 30 and when elections are held. I think that will help to change the attitudes so that Iraqi policemen and security personnel are not simply seen as working with, quote, "the occupying force." I think that will change somewhat as we -- as we see the turnover to United Nations authority as such, politically.
VERJEE: Former Defense Secretary William Cohen, in Washington, thank you.
COHEN: Pleasure.
END
TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
