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American Morning

War Funding; Saudi Blast Aftermath

Aired April 22, 2004 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 7:30 here in New York. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING.
Barbara Starr is standing by at the Pentagon. In a moment, we'll talk to her about the back-and-forth discussions right now in D.C., and they are getting heated, too, about the ongoing cost of the war in Iraq. How much money is needed? How much more money is needed sooner rather than later? And the debate continues. We'll get to Barbara in a moment again at the Pentagon.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Also, this morning in just a few minutes, we're going to talk to an eyewitness of the massive tornado that hit Utica, Illinois. He was there in the tavern where eight people were killed, but left really just seconds before the storm ripped through. He has quite a story to tell.

HEMMER: Indeed he does.

O'BRIEN: He says it really was just his sixth sense. Some people were coming in because they thought that tavern, you know, was so sturdy that it would be the best place to be in a tornado. So some of them came in from the trailer homes, and he said, no, I'm getting out of here, and left. And then the storm hit.

HEMMER: And we mentioned earlier, seconds sometimes saves lives in situations like that.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it sure does.

HEMMER: Our top stories this morning here now.

Michael Jackson has been indicted by a Santa Barbara grand jury. Specific charges not known, but it's believed to be similar to the child molestation and child endangerment charges Jackson faced already one time. In a statement, his lawyers say they are confidence he will be fully exonerated. The arraignment is now set for the 30th of April. No trial date set at this point.

Two major contractors in Iraq are reportedly suspending most of their operations there. According to "The New York Times," General Electric and Siemens are experiencing problems due to recent hostilities. A spokesmen for the contractors declining to talk about operations, citing security concerns. The suspensions in travel restrictions said to be delaying work on about two dozen power plants throughout Iraq.

A legendary newswoman has died. Longtime "Washington Post" columnist Mary McGrory died last night. She won a Pulitzer Prize for her Watergate coverage and also earned a spot on President Nixon's so- called enemies list. She fell ill, suffered a stroke-like event last year. She was 85 years old.

A story of mice and no men now. Japanese and Korean scientists have created the first mouse with two genetic mothers but no father. They say the technique cannot be used on humans, but could have implications in the use of stem cells to treat diseases. That from Japan.

Also, the world's busiest airport is about to get a lot less crowded. The FAA ordering United and American Airlines to drop 43 flights during peak hours at Chicago's O'Hare International. The cuts take effect June 10 and follow similar flight reductions earlier this year, which should be good news for folks going in and out of Chicago, huh?

O'BRIEN: That airport is a nightmare.

HEMMER: Do you think so?

O'BRIEN: Yes, like two weeks ago I was there.

HEMMER: And?

O'BRIEN: That's understating it. It's bigger than a nightmare.

HEMMER: Well, if you consider the volume they handle on a daily basis, it's pretty extraordinary.

O'BRIEN: Nightmare!

(WEATHER BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Well, the war in Iraq is costing close to $5 billion each month, and the Pentagon expects to run out of money by the end of the summer. The questions in Washington now are, how much will they need, and when will they ask for it?

Barbara Starr is live for us at the Pentagon this morning.

Hey, Barbara, good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad.

Well, indeed that's exactly the question: Will the White House ask for more money to fight the war in Iraq before or after the November election? What is clear is more money is needed.

Originally, the White House did think the $87 billion Congress had given them would be enough, at least until January 1. But the price tag is going up. One reason, of course, the extra 20,000 troops staying in Iraq about another 90 days. That is going to cost money. A lot of questions coming from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Additional time in Iraq is going to cost us more money. We estimate right now -- we are working those estimates right now, let me just say that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: But then, General Myers went on to say that his estimate is that is going to cost, those 20,000 troops, $700 million. That was not in the original budget plan, of course, and the services are now telling Capitol Hill they have about $6 billion minimum in urgent spending that they need to accomplish. So, all of this, the price tag is adding up.

And one question: What is the war really costing per month? Well, here at the Pentagon, they call that the burn rate, and the current burn rate, $4.7 billion a month before the price tag went up -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, let's round that off to $5 billion a month. I mean, realistically -- I said intro-ing you talking to us, that they're going to run out of money by the end of the summer. I mean, realistically, can they run out of money? What really happens at the end of the summer?

STARR: Exactly right. The Pentagon is one government agency that never runs out of money. What they will do is what they do every year -- classic Washington budget politics. They will take money from other accounts. They will borrow from other areas of spending, make up the difference until the supplemental is asked for and approved by Congress.

So, the real question, of course, is when the White House will decide it's politically advantageous for them to ask for that supplemental.

One of the classic issues here is Congress does not appropriate money ahead of time for wars and contingency operations. They think that's a slush fund for the Pentagon, in their own words. So, all of this is pretty typical budget politics.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, Barbara Starr for us this morning. Barbara, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: The Saudi Arabian government now says it is in what it calls a total war against terrorism. That pledge coming in the wake of yesterday's car bombing in the capital city of Riyadh. Four are dead, 150 injured.

A group claiming to be sympathetic to al Qaeda is claiming responsibility for that attack, which heavily damaged a building housing the Saudi Interior Ministry.

Robert Jordan was the U.S. ambassador in Saudi Arabia from 2001 to 2003. He's live in Dallas to talk about it.

Mr. Ambassador, good morning. Welcome here to AMERICAN MORNING.

ROBERT JORDAN, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Good morning.

HEMMER: Do you believe there's a new message in these attacks? Or is this just more added terror there?

JORDAN: It's largely more of the same. And I think the new message here is that they are now shifting to go after Saudi government facilities, particularly the Ministry of Interior, which, of course, runs the police force. This is new. We've seen attacks on civilians in the past. They then started attacking Muslim housing compounds last November.

And so, this attack on a Saudi government facility is significant in that sense, but it's another chapter in the ongoing war that is being fought in Saudi Arabia.

HEMMER: Put that comment with this group sympathetic to al Qaeda. Put those together. What do they say to you?

JORDAN: Well, it says the same thing we've known for a long time, that al Qaeda has declared war on the Saudi royal family. They're really at least as interested in taking down the royal family as they are at inflicting damage on the United States.

HEMMER: Which way does this cut ultimately, do you think? Does this fortify support from Osama bin Laden in places like Saudi Arabia? Or does it take away from him, does it go against him?

JORDAN: I think it's a huge mistake for al Qaeda to be fighting their battle on Saudi home turf. The Saudi homeland is not a place where al Qaeda should be inflicting casualties, and I think they've made a huge mistake. It's likely to galvanize the Saudi people even further to turn in suspected terrorists and to further cooperate with the police in ridding Saudi Arabia of these terrorists.

HEMMER: Yes, a couple of the things on this story from yesterday. No Americans were injured in this attack, and also about a week ago, you might remember, a State Department warning went out, telling U.S. citizens to take cover or even get out if you are not necessary in the Saudi Arabia kingdom. Put that with the fact that five other bombs were set to go off and the police caught that. Does that tell you that intel in Saudi Arabia is getting better?

JORDAN: It certainly does. We established last year a joint intelligence operation with the Saudis. This has been very effective in helping uncover plots like this and to share the information with each other, so that we can work together. This is a significant step forward in the effectiveness of the Saudi police in uncovering plots like this.

HEMMER: If I could on a much different topic, Prince Bandar says there was no oil deal reached with the White House in the build-up to the war with Iraq. He also said yesterday that he was not told of war plans before the secretary of state, Colin Powell. Your reaction to the back and forth between what's in Bob Woodward's book and what we're hearing now as the fallout during this past week.

JORDAN: Well, I think everyone needs to stop and take a deep breath. The point of it is that we needed the Saudis' help in the conflict in Iraq. It would be foolish to not let an ally in on what your plans are. And whether a particular piece of paper was shown to Prince Bandar before or after the same piece of paper was shown to Secretary Powell, I think, is really not the point here. The secretary was fully read into what the plans were. Prince Bandar was brought in at an appropriate time because of the need to secure certain Saudi support.

HEMMER: Are you saying Woodward's book is wrong?

JORDAN: I don't think we need to take a position on that. I haven't read the book. Bob Woodward is a well-respected reporter. I'm not sure that it's something that isn't really just a matter of semantics and emphasis rather than real substance. The substance is as I've just stated.

HEMMER: Robert Jordan, former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, live in Dallas Texas. Thanks for your time this morning.

JORDAN: My pleasure.

HEMMER: Appreciate it. OK -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: The death toll from that devastating tornado that destroyed large parts of the town of Utica, Illinois, stands at eight now. All of the victims were pulled from the rubble of one three- story building, which housed what was called the Milestone Tavern.

Our next guest, Jeremy Thorson, left the tavern just before the tornado hit on Tuesday night, and he joins us this morning from Utica, Illinois.

Nice to see you. Thank you for being with us, Jeremy. I know this is really difficult for you. Obviously, you lost a lot of friends, and your life has really been turned upside down.

Let's talk a little bit about how you knew the storm was coming. Was the TV on in the tavern? What was going on?

JEREMY THORSON, TORNADO SURVIVOR: The television was on in the tavern. And as I went downstairs, I noticed that there were people watching the TV. I asked what was going on, and they showed -- the television screen showed the tornado right above the area where my wife and my house was located.

So at that moment, I decided that I wanted to make sure my wife was OK and that my pets were in the basement. So, I got out of the building as quick as I could, drove through town at a fast rate. On my way home, the tornado was in between me and my route of travel. I was 500 feet, 300 feet, it's hard to tell, but my truck moved around. I got off of the road and waited it out.

O'BRIEN: Let me ask you a question. A lot of folks, it seems, came to the tavern because it looked like it was possibly the strongest structure that would be able to survive a tornado. I mean, people came in from outside to take shelter inside the tavern. So, did you have a sixth sense that it wouldn't be safe, or was it all about just getting to your home?

THORSON: It's hard to explain. When I was leaving, I was really drawing a blank. I knew I just wanted to get out of there. I wanted to get as far away from Utica as I could. The building was solid as a rock. It was an all-rock building, and very true, one of the patrons actually said this is going to be one of the strongest buildings in Utica, but I just got out.

As soon as I walked out the front door, I could hear the warning siren coming from the distance of LaSalle. It wasn't yet in Utica, and I left. By the time I got home, I called the Milestone. I just felt I should call, and there was no answer. It was a busy signal.

O'BRIEN: When you finally reached your wife -- and we should mention that she was fine and the two of you, you know, were able to hook up -- when did you get the news that, in fact, the people inside the tavern, where you had been really just minutes before, did not survive? What was that like?

THORSON: It was very strange. We went out for pizza when we found that she was safe. She actually had to pull over, saw the tornado herself on the way back from work in Ottawa. So, we went out and had some pizza, and over dinner we could hear the waitresses talking about Utica being destroyed, the Milestone being basically people trapped. And at first, I didn't believe it, the way rumors go. But as soon as I got home, sure enough, on the television that was all over the news.

O'BRIEN: How are you doing today? And how are the folks in Utica doing today? I mean, I can't even imagine how you must feel really having -- I don't think it's an exaggeration to say -- narrowly escaped with your life. Are you all right?

THORSON: It's still settling in. It really is, as far as realizing if I would have taken 10 more minutes, if I would have sat down and waited out the storm, what could have happened, inevitably what would have happened? Coming back into Utica today, it's -- that was difficult. That was difficult, seeing the town, driving in with no traffic, very just heartbreaking, disturbing.

O'BRIEN: What does it look like?

THORSON: It doesn't look the same. It's gone. Downtown is not looking -- I'm looking at a grain bin that used to be on the other side of the canal. You know, I've been around this area for a long time. I've spent a lot of time in Utica. A block that way is where they had their local celebrations, the city, the bands would play, everything. It's -- it was a lot of people appreciated this town from Chicago coming down. We're right next to a state park. A lot of traffic comes through here that won't be coming through, obviously, for some time. O'BRIEN: Not just the devastation, of course, but the loss of life -- huge, huge loss for a relatively small town. How do you think the folks are going to be able to -- do you think the folks are ever going to be able to get over this?

THORSON: Oh, yes, everybody in town is strong. Utica is a strong town. The camaraderie is great. The people here, they'll pull together. They'll fix it. It will be even better some day. Unfortunately, the lives that were lost cannot be replaced, cannot be fixed. It's just a matter of time, a matter of time, and I'm sure everybody in Utica will pull together and take care.

My friends live directly over the canal, and now that I've gained entrance, I'll be able to go and see if they are OK. At this point, nobody knows. You can't call Utica. There's no phone service, or wasn't yesterday.

O'BRIEN: Well, we certainly hope they are fine and everyone else as well. Jeremy Thorson, thanks for talking with us. I mean, I can tell you are obviously still very shaken up, so we appreciate it.

THORSON: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Bill.

HEMMER: Let's get a break here. In a moment on AMERICAN MORNING, back to Iraq. A sad day in that country. Countless families grieve after a string of suicide bombings in Basra. An update on what's happening there today in a moment.

O'BRIEN: And inside Michael Jackson's grand jury indictment. We're going to talk live to the pop star's former spiritual advisor.

HEMMER: And say hello to P. Diddy on Broadway. Get your ticket for "90-Second Pop" next here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Well, it's time now for "90-Second Pop." Today's topics: P. Diddy's Broadway, trumping the Donald, and new weekend movies.

Here to discuss is our panel, drum roll, please, humorist Andy Borowitz. He is the author of "Governor Arnold." Also, "New York" magazine contributing editor, Sarah Bernard. And B.J. Sigesmund, staff editor for "US Weekly."

Hello. Hello. Hello.

SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: Hello.

ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: Hello.

O'BRIEN: Where do you want to begin? Let's start with Donald.

BOROWITZ: Donald. O'BRIEN: Well, you know, he's done it successfully, re-opt a new contract for a lot of dough.

BOROWITZ: Right.

O'BRIEN: All of these other billionaires are suddenly jumping into the pot.

BOROWITZ: Yes, every billionaire.

O'BRIEN: Mark Cuban.

BOROWITZ: Mark Cuban.

O'BRIEN: And Richard Branson.

BOROWITZ: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Do people want to see billionaires on TV, do you think? Or do you think Trump has, like, a special thing?

BOROWITZ: I don't know if they're going to want to see these guys. Every billionaire, though, wants to be on TV now. You know, it's funny. I think, how long before Bill Gates shows up on "American Idol" singing "She Blinded me with Science." It's only a matter of time. That's what I want to see.

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I'm sorry.

BOROWITZ: No, no, no. I have nothing of value.

O'BRIEN: He's done.

BERNARD: Oh, now...

O'BRIEN: He's quite through.

BERNARD: Well, I was going to say, what is so interesting about this is Mark Cuban, on his Web log yesterday had an open letter to Trump, because Trump had...

O'BRIEN: They hate each other.

BERNARD: They hate each other.

BOROWITZ: Oh, OK.

BERNARD: Because Trump had accused him of, you know, kind of imitating his show, which, hello, of course he is. His show's benefactor is exactly the same, basically.

O'BRIEN: Duh!

BOROWITZ: Who do you root for between Mark Cuban and Donald Trump? That's kind of like the Riddler and the Joker.

(CROSSTALK)

B.J. SIGESMUND, STAFF EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": And don't forget, it wasn't just Donald Trump that made "The Apprentice." It was Mark Burnett, the producer of "Survivor," who brought...

BERNARD: Right.

O'BRIEN: You don't think that Mark Cuban and...

SIGESMUND: Well, you know, Bronson and Mark Cuban are both...

O'BRIEN: Richard Branson.

SIGESMUND: They're both very charismatic and eccentric guys, but it's going to take the right producer to make these shows work.

O'BRIEN: What's the...

SIGESMUND: You can't just...

O'BRIEN: What's the gist of Richard Branson's show?

BERNARD: It's going to be more international since he's based in England. And I think it said that people are going to be all over the globe trying to impress him. And then when you lose, instead of being kicked out of the boardroom, you get abandoned on the tarmac.

O'BRIEN: Dropped out of the plane.

BERNARD: Basically, yes, you do.

SIGESMUND: Yes.

BERNARD: They fly away, and you're sitting there standing on the tarmac waiting.

SIGESMUND: That's his version of the taxicab driving down Fifth Avenue or whatever it is on Trump's show. Yes, they get left on the tarmac.

O'BRIEN: That's so sad.

BERNARD: In "The Benefactor," Mark Cuban, they decide -- he decides. It's his whim, whether you get $1 million or not.

SIGESMUND: And they all live in -- this time, they all live in a house in Dallas for three weeks. That's basically what they've said about Mark Cuban's show.

BERNARD: Maybe we should give the million dollars to Michael Jackson for his (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: Please, let's not go there. Sarah, let's talk about P. Diddy. He's making his Broadway debut. I've got to tell you, I like P. Diddy. I'm a huge P. Diddy fan.

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: Would you go see him?

O'BRIEN: Yes, I'd go see him.

BERNARD: I think a lot of people feel the same way. Well, so now he's hip-hop mogul, fashion designer.

O'BRIEN: Marathoner.

BERNARD: He just signed a deal with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this week. Exactly. And now he's a Broadway star. This is the first time the play "Raising in the Sun" has been back to Broadway since 1959. I can't believe it. And Sidney Poitier was the person who originated this role. I mean, could you be more intimidated?

BOROWITZ: I think...

BERNARD: I can't believe it.

BOROWITZ: Now, I think...

O'BRIEN: Sidney Poitier on to P. Diddy.

BERNARD: Exactly.

BOROWITZ: I think it's a really good choice. You know, he had originally been talking about doing a revival of "Fiddler on the Roof," and I think that "Raising in the Sun" is a much, much better move.

BERNARD: Much better? Much more type casting.

SIGESMUND: You've got to admire P. Diddy's ego.

O'BRIEN: I'm telling you!

SIGESMUND: To be able to think...

BOROWITZ: Right.

SIGESMUND: ... that he could follow Sidney Poitier's footsteps and do the show, and he's going to do it all the way through July 15.

BERNARD: It's a big commitment.

SIGESMUND: So, even if the reviews are terrible and people hate him in this, he is committed all the way through.

BOROWITZ: Yes, if he's bad, he'll just change his name again.

SIGESMUND: Oh, and speaking of his name, he is Sean Combs when he does this show.

BOROWITZ: Oh, Sean Combs.

SIGESMUND: He's Sean Combs in this show.

O'BRIEN: I can't keep it all straight. Is he any good?

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: Yes, the reviews are not bad. And I have to say that what's interesting about him now is the fact that he's doing the marathon. He does not need to do this basically for fame. He doesn't need anymore fame.

O'BRIEN: It's a challenge.

BERNARD: He doesn't need anymore money. And he's just doing this because it's a fantasy of his.

O'BRIEN: I've got to tell you, I like...

SIGESMUND: You're there!

O'BRIEN: No, I think it's bigger than that. I like P. Diddy. I think he always stretches the boundaries. You know, he moves on to the next thing.

BERNARD: He does. I mean, it's putting yourself out there to have everybody come to watch you.

O'BRIEN: You go, P. Diddy! I'm going to be in the front row every night cheering you on, even if you're not very good. You wait and see.

BERNARD: Well, I think he's not bad.

O'BRIEN: Oh, good. Well, we'll wait and see.

Let's talk movies. "13 Going on 30," this looks very funny, Jennifer Garner is in it.

Yes. I saw "13 Going on 30" actually.

O'BRIEN: Did you like it?

SIGESMUND: I was in Florida last weekend visiting my mother, and we went to one of those sneak previews that they had on Saturday night.

BERNARD: Oh!

O'BRIEN: Oh! You took your mom!

SIGESMUND: But the funniest part was, there were so many little kids in the audience, we felt like we were at a 12-year-old's birthday party. Like, we were the oldest people. I was old by like 20 years. BOROWITZ: Thanks for the warning, B.J.

(CROSSTALK)

SIGESMUND: This is, you know, Jennifer Garner, it's basically a female version of "Big." She's a 13-year-old who wishes she was 30 and she could skip adolescence. And one morning she wakes up and she is 30. And she's this fabulous magazine editor in New York.

O'BRIEN: But mean and nasty, because she came out with the wrong girl...

SIGESMUND: But yes, right.

O'BRIEN: ... in junior high school.

SIGESMUND: It turns out she's like grown up to be this horrible person. So, she tries to change all of that. And I don't want to spoil too much about the movie, but it's pretty enjoyable.

BERNARD: I think what's interesting is that she apparently is really like that in person. We're so used to her being the "Alias," you know, kicking-butt girl. But apparently in real life she's more like the giggly 13-year-old. And that's why she said she wanted to do it.

O'BRIEN: I've got two seconds, and I want to hear if "Clifford's Really Big Movie" is any good, because I'm going to take my daughter to see that.

SIGESMUND: Well, I don't know if it's really, really big, but I think that the kid audience is going to be there this weekend. I mean, these movies always do well. And this is an old-fashioned G- rated movie. John Ritter, the late John Ritter actually voices Clifford, and, you know, I think that...

BERNARD: I don't know if that's going to be a good thing or bad thing for...

SIGESMUND: I think it will be a good thing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) draw.

BOROWITZ: Is Ben Diesel (ph) in it?

SIGESMUND: No.

BOROWITZ: Then I'm not going.

O'BRIEN: Then I'm not going either, darn it.

BOROWITZ: There's nothing for me to see this weekend.

O'BRIEN: I love him, too. He's going to do a movie so we can talk about it in "90-Second Pop" one of these days.

SIGESMUND: This summer he has one. O'BRIEN: Oh, good.

BOROWITZ: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Maybe we'll bring him in as a guest.

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: He can sit right here next to me.

BOROWITZ: I think Sarah wants him right there.

O'BRIEN: No, no, girl, he's right here.

BOROWITZ: All right, I'm over it.

O'BRIEN: All right, you guys, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Soledad, we'll get a break here. In a moment, how much do you want to know about your presidential candidate? Jack has some answers in a moment here after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Back to Jack and the question of the day.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill.

"The Washington Post" is reporting this morning that Senator John Kerry has now released information about the 200 lobbyists he's met with over the last 13-14 years. He began posting his military records on his Web site this week. And the "Post" reports Kerry is rethinking his decision to keep his wife's tax records secret.

President Bush's records have also been a hot topic, and at tax time the president and his wife only made parts of their returns available.

The question is this: How much do we need to know about the presidential candidates? And here are some of the answers.

Irwin in Woodsville, New Hampshire: "Now that the Republican demands for Kerry's military records have been posted, in the interest of bipartisanship, shouldn't the records of all of the leaders be disclosed? Let's see the military records of Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rove, Rumsfeld and other leaders who are sending our men into the mouth of the cannon."

John writes: "Everything should be disclosed. Let's find out where the candidates' personal income comes from, and then we will find out what their agenda will be. No politician acts against his own self-interest. And Michael writes from Heron, South Dakota: "I don't know anything about Kerry's access to the Heinz fortune, and I need to catch up."

HEMMER: Yes, he does.

O'BRIEN: That's funny.

HEMMER: You know...

O'BRIEN: I get that.

HEMMER: After that list, who wants to be president, huh?

CAFFERTY: What's that?

HEMMER: You have to reveal everything in your entire life, you know.

CAFFERTY: I know.

HEMMER: You really have to want the job to go as far as some of these guys.

CAFFERTY: Well, you know, it's a catch-22. If there's stuff that you don't want people to know, then they are going to scream that you reveal it.

HEMMER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: If you've got a clean record, nobody cares.

HEMMER: OK, a good topic, too.

O'BRIEN: It is.

HEMMER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, what's Michael Jackson's next move now that he's been indicted by a California grand jury? A former close advisor joins us next here on AMERICAN MORNING.

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Aired April 22, 2004 - 07:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 7:30 here in New York. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING.
Barbara Starr is standing by at the Pentagon. In a moment, we'll talk to her about the back-and-forth discussions right now in D.C., and they are getting heated, too, about the ongoing cost of the war in Iraq. How much money is needed? How much more money is needed sooner rather than later? And the debate continues. We'll get to Barbara in a moment again at the Pentagon.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Also, this morning in just a few minutes, we're going to talk to an eyewitness of the massive tornado that hit Utica, Illinois. He was there in the tavern where eight people were killed, but left really just seconds before the storm ripped through. He has quite a story to tell.

HEMMER: Indeed he does.

O'BRIEN: He says it really was just his sixth sense. Some people were coming in because they thought that tavern, you know, was so sturdy that it would be the best place to be in a tornado. So some of them came in from the trailer homes, and he said, no, I'm getting out of here, and left. And then the storm hit.

HEMMER: And we mentioned earlier, seconds sometimes saves lives in situations like that.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it sure does.

HEMMER: Our top stories this morning here now.

Michael Jackson has been indicted by a Santa Barbara grand jury. Specific charges not known, but it's believed to be similar to the child molestation and child endangerment charges Jackson faced already one time. In a statement, his lawyers say they are confidence he will be fully exonerated. The arraignment is now set for the 30th of April. No trial date set at this point.

Two major contractors in Iraq are reportedly suspending most of their operations there. According to "The New York Times," General Electric and Siemens are experiencing problems due to recent hostilities. A spokesmen for the contractors declining to talk about operations, citing security concerns. The suspensions in travel restrictions said to be delaying work on about two dozen power plants throughout Iraq.

A legendary newswoman has died. Longtime "Washington Post" columnist Mary McGrory died last night. She won a Pulitzer Prize for her Watergate coverage and also earned a spot on President Nixon's so- called enemies list. She fell ill, suffered a stroke-like event last year. She was 85 years old.

A story of mice and no men now. Japanese and Korean scientists have created the first mouse with two genetic mothers but no father. They say the technique cannot be used on humans, but could have implications in the use of stem cells to treat diseases. That from Japan.

Also, the world's busiest airport is about to get a lot less crowded. The FAA ordering United and American Airlines to drop 43 flights during peak hours at Chicago's O'Hare International. The cuts take effect June 10 and follow similar flight reductions earlier this year, which should be good news for folks going in and out of Chicago, huh?

O'BRIEN: That airport is a nightmare.

HEMMER: Do you think so?

O'BRIEN: Yes, like two weeks ago I was there.

HEMMER: And?

O'BRIEN: That's understating it. It's bigger than a nightmare.

HEMMER: Well, if you consider the volume they handle on a daily basis, it's pretty extraordinary.

O'BRIEN: Nightmare!

(WEATHER BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Well, the war in Iraq is costing close to $5 billion each month, and the Pentagon expects to run out of money by the end of the summer. The questions in Washington now are, how much will they need, and when will they ask for it?

Barbara Starr is live for us at the Pentagon this morning.

Hey, Barbara, good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad.

Well, indeed that's exactly the question: Will the White House ask for more money to fight the war in Iraq before or after the November election? What is clear is more money is needed.

Originally, the White House did think the $87 billion Congress had given them would be enough, at least until January 1. But the price tag is going up. One reason, of course, the extra 20,000 troops staying in Iraq about another 90 days. That is going to cost money. A lot of questions coming from Capitol Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Additional time in Iraq is going to cost us more money. We estimate right now -- we are working those estimates right now, let me just say that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: But then, General Myers went on to say that his estimate is that is going to cost, those 20,000 troops, $700 million. That was not in the original budget plan, of course, and the services are now telling Capitol Hill they have about $6 billion minimum in urgent spending that they need to accomplish. So, all of this, the price tag is adding up.

And one question: What is the war really costing per month? Well, here at the Pentagon, they call that the burn rate, and the current burn rate, $4.7 billion a month before the price tag went up -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, let's round that off to $5 billion a month. I mean, realistically -- I said intro-ing you talking to us, that they're going to run out of money by the end of the summer. I mean, realistically, can they run out of money? What really happens at the end of the summer?

STARR: Exactly right. The Pentagon is one government agency that never runs out of money. What they will do is what they do every year -- classic Washington budget politics. They will take money from other accounts. They will borrow from other areas of spending, make up the difference until the supplemental is asked for and approved by Congress.

So, the real question, of course, is when the White House will decide it's politically advantageous for them to ask for that supplemental.

One of the classic issues here is Congress does not appropriate money ahead of time for wars and contingency operations. They think that's a slush fund for the Pentagon, in their own words. So, all of this is pretty typical budget politics.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. All right, Barbara Starr for us this morning. Barbara, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: The Saudi Arabian government now says it is in what it calls a total war against terrorism. That pledge coming in the wake of yesterday's car bombing in the capital city of Riyadh. Four are dead, 150 injured.

A group claiming to be sympathetic to al Qaeda is claiming responsibility for that attack, which heavily damaged a building housing the Saudi Interior Ministry.

Robert Jordan was the U.S. ambassador in Saudi Arabia from 2001 to 2003. He's live in Dallas to talk about it.

Mr. Ambassador, good morning. Welcome here to AMERICAN MORNING.

ROBERT JORDAN, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Good morning.

HEMMER: Do you believe there's a new message in these attacks? Or is this just more added terror there?

JORDAN: It's largely more of the same. And I think the new message here is that they are now shifting to go after Saudi government facilities, particularly the Ministry of Interior, which, of course, runs the police force. This is new. We've seen attacks on civilians in the past. They then started attacking Muslim housing compounds last November.

And so, this attack on a Saudi government facility is significant in that sense, but it's another chapter in the ongoing war that is being fought in Saudi Arabia.

HEMMER: Put that comment with this group sympathetic to al Qaeda. Put those together. What do they say to you?

JORDAN: Well, it says the same thing we've known for a long time, that al Qaeda has declared war on the Saudi royal family. They're really at least as interested in taking down the royal family as they are at inflicting damage on the United States.

HEMMER: Which way does this cut ultimately, do you think? Does this fortify support from Osama bin Laden in places like Saudi Arabia? Or does it take away from him, does it go against him?

JORDAN: I think it's a huge mistake for al Qaeda to be fighting their battle on Saudi home turf. The Saudi homeland is not a place where al Qaeda should be inflicting casualties, and I think they've made a huge mistake. It's likely to galvanize the Saudi people even further to turn in suspected terrorists and to further cooperate with the police in ridding Saudi Arabia of these terrorists.

HEMMER: Yes, a couple of the things on this story from yesterday. No Americans were injured in this attack, and also about a week ago, you might remember, a State Department warning went out, telling U.S. citizens to take cover or even get out if you are not necessary in the Saudi Arabia kingdom. Put that with the fact that five other bombs were set to go off and the police caught that. Does that tell you that intel in Saudi Arabia is getting better?

JORDAN: It certainly does. We established last year a joint intelligence operation with the Saudis. This has been very effective in helping uncover plots like this and to share the information with each other, so that we can work together. This is a significant step forward in the effectiveness of the Saudi police in uncovering plots like this.

HEMMER: If I could on a much different topic, Prince Bandar says there was no oil deal reached with the White House in the build-up to the war with Iraq. He also said yesterday that he was not told of war plans before the secretary of state, Colin Powell. Your reaction to the back and forth between what's in Bob Woodward's book and what we're hearing now as the fallout during this past week.

JORDAN: Well, I think everyone needs to stop and take a deep breath. The point of it is that we needed the Saudis' help in the conflict in Iraq. It would be foolish to not let an ally in on what your plans are. And whether a particular piece of paper was shown to Prince Bandar before or after the same piece of paper was shown to Secretary Powell, I think, is really not the point here. The secretary was fully read into what the plans were. Prince Bandar was brought in at an appropriate time because of the need to secure certain Saudi support.

HEMMER: Are you saying Woodward's book is wrong?

JORDAN: I don't think we need to take a position on that. I haven't read the book. Bob Woodward is a well-respected reporter. I'm not sure that it's something that isn't really just a matter of semantics and emphasis rather than real substance. The substance is as I've just stated.

HEMMER: Robert Jordan, former ambassador to Saudi Arabia, live in Dallas Texas. Thanks for your time this morning.

JORDAN: My pleasure.

HEMMER: Appreciate it. OK -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: The death toll from that devastating tornado that destroyed large parts of the town of Utica, Illinois, stands at eight now. All of the victims were pulled from the rubble of one three- story building, which housed what was called the Milestone Tavern.

Our next guest, Jeremy Thorson, left the tavern just before the tornado hit on Tuesday night, and he joins us this morning from Utica, Illinois.

Nice to see you. Thank you for being with us, Jeremy. I know this is really difficult for you. Obviously, you lost a lot of friends, and your life has really been turned upside down.

Let's talk a little bit about how you knew the storm was coming. Was the TV on in the tavern? What was going on?

JEREMY THORSON, TORNADO SURVIVOR: The television was on in the tavern. And as I went downstairs, I noticed that there were people watching the TV. I asked what was going on, and they showed -- the television screen showed the tornado right above the area where my wife and my house was located.

So at that moment, I decided that I wanted to make sure my wife was OK and that my pets were in the basement. So, I got out of the building as quick as I could, drove through town at a fast rate. On my way home, the tornado was in between me and my route of travel. I was 500 feet, 300 feet, it's hard to tell, but my truck moved around. I got off of the road and waited it out.

O'BRIEN: Let me ask you a question. A lot of folks, it seems, came to the tavern because it looked like it was possibly the strongest structure that would be able to survive a tornado. I mean, people came in from outside to take shelter inside the tavern. So, did you have a sixth sense that it wouldn't be safe, or was it all about just getting to your home?

THORSON: It's hard to explain. When I was leaving, I was really drawing a blank. I knew I just wanted to get out of there. I wanted to get as far away from Utica as I could. The building was solid as a rock. It was an all-rock building, and very true, one of the patrons actually said this is going to be one of the strongest buildings in Utica, but I just got out.

As soon as I walked out the front door, I could hear the warning siren coming from the distance of LaSalle. It wasn't yet in Utica, and I left. By the time I got home, I called the Milestone. I just felt I should call, and there was no answer. It was a busy signal.

O'BRIEN: When you finally reached your wife -- and we should mention that she was fine and the two of you, you know, were able to hook up -- when did you get the news that, in fact, the people inside the tavern, where you had been really just minutes before, did not survive? What was that like?

THORSON: It was very strange. We went out for pizza when we found that she was safe. She actually had to pull over, saw the tornado herself on the way back from work in Ottawa. So, we went out and had some pizza, and over dinner we could hear the waitresses talking about Utica being destroyed, the Milestone being basically people trapped. And at first, I didn't believe it, the way rumors go. But as soon as I got home, sure enough, on the television that was all over the news.

O'BRIEN: How are you doing today? And how are the folks in Utica doing today? I mean, I can't even imagine how you must feel really having -- I don't think it's an exaggeration to say -- narrowly escaped with your life. Are you all right?

THORSON: It's still settling in. It really is, as far as realizing if I would have taken 10 more minutes, if I would have sat down and waited out the storm, what could have happened, inevitably what would have happened? Coming back into Utica today, it's -- that was difficult. That was difficult, seeing the town, driving in with no traffic, very just heartbreaking, disturbing.

O'BRIEN: What does it look like?

THORSON: It doesn't look the same. It's gone. Downtown is not looking -- I'm looking at a grain bin that used to be on the other side of the canal. You know, I've been around this area for a long time. I've spent a lot of time in Utica. A block that way is where they had their local celebrations, the city, the bands would play, everything. It's -- it was a lot of people appreciated this town from Chicago coming down. We're right next to a state park. A lot of traffic comes through here that won't be coming through, obviously, for some time. O'BRIEN: Not just the devastation, of course, but the loss of life -- huge, huge loss for a relatively small town. How do you think the folks are going to be able to -- do you think the folks are ever going to be able to get over this?

THORSON: Oh, yes, everybody in town is strong. Utica is a strong town. The camaraderie is great. The people here, they'll pull together. They'll fix it. It will be even better some day. Unfortunately, the lives that were lost cannot be replaced, cannot be fixed. It's just a matter of time, a matter of time, and I'm sure everybody in Utica will pull together and take care.

My friends live directly over the canal, and now that I've gained entrance, I'll be able to go and see if they are OK. At this point, nobody knows. You can't call Utica. There's no phone service, or wasn't yesterday.

O'BRIEN: Well, we certainly hope they are fine and everyone else as well. Jeremy Thorson, thanks for talking with us. I mean, I can tell you are obviously still very shaken up, so we appreciate it.

THORSON: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Bill.

HEMMER: Let's get a break here. In a moment on AMERICAN MORNING, back to Iraq. A sad day in that country. Countless families grieve after a string of suicide bombings in Basra. An update on what's happening there today in a moment.

O'BRIEN: And inside Michael Jackson's grand jury indictment. We're going to talk live to the pop star's former spiritual advisor.

HEMMER: And say hello to P. Diddy on Broadway. Get your ticket for "90-Second Pop" next here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Well, it's time now for "90-Second Pop." Today's topics: P. Diddy's Broadway, trumping the Donald, and new weekend movies.

Here to discuss is our panel, drum roll, please, humorist Andy Borowitz. He is the author of "Governor Arnold." Also, "New York" magazine contributing editor, Sarah Bernard. And B.J. Sigesmund, staff editor for "US Weekly."

Hello. Hello. Hello.

SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: Hello.

ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: Hello.

O'BRIEN: Where do you want to begin? Let's start with Donald.

BOROWITZ: Donald. O'BRIEN: Well, you know, he's done it successfully, re-opt a new contract for a lot of dough.

BOROWITZ: Right.

O'BRIEN: All of these other billionaires are suddenly jumping into the pot.

BOROWITZ: Yes, every billionaire.

O'BRIEN: Mark Cuban.

BOROWITZ: Mark Cuban.

O'BRIEN: And Richard Branson.

BOROWITZ: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Do people want to see billionaires on TV, do you think? Or do you think Trump has, like, a special thing?

BOROWITZ: I don't know if they're going to want to see these guys. Every billionaire, though, wants to be on TV now. You know, it's funny. I think, how long before Bill Gates shows up on "American Idol" singing "She Blinded me with Science." It's only a matter of time. That's what I want to see.

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I'm sorry.

BOROWITZ: No, no, no. I have nothing of value.

O'BRIEN: He's done.

BERNARD: Oh, now...

O'BRIEN: He's quite through.

BERNARD: Well, I was going to say, what is so interesting about this is Mark Cuban, on his Web log yesterday had an open letter to Trump, because Trump had...

O'BRIEN: They hate each other.

BERNARD: They hate each other.

BOROWITZ: Oh, OK.

BERNARD: Because Trump had accused him of, you know, kind of imitating his show, which, hello, of course he is. His show's benefactor is exactly the same, basically.

O'BRIEN: Duh!

BOROWITZ: Who do you root for between Mark Cuban and Donald Trump? That's kind of like the Riddler and the Joker.

(CROSSTALK)

B.J. SIGESMUND, STAFF EDITOR, "US WEEKLY": And don't forget, it wasn't just Donald Trump that made "The Apprentice." It was Mark Burnett, the producer of "Survivor," who brought...

BERNARD: Right.

O'BRIEN: You don't think that Mark Cuban and...

SIGESMUND: Well, you know, Bronson and Mark Cuban are both...

O'BRIEN: Richard Branson.

SIGESMUND: They're both very charismatic and eccentric guys, but it's going to take the right producer to make these shows work.

O'BRIEN: What's the...

SIGESMUND: You can't just...

O'BRIEN: What's the gist of Richard Branson's show?

BERNARD: It's going to be more international since he's based in England. And I think it said that people are going to be all over the globe trying to impress him. And then when you lose, instead of being kicked out of the boardroom, you get abandoned on the tarmac.

O'BRIEN: Dropped out of the plane.

BERNARD: Basically, yes, you do.

SIGESMUND: Yes.

BERNARD: They fly away, and you're sitting there standing on the tarmac waiting.

SIGESMUND: That's his version of the taxicab driving down Fifth Avenue or whatever it is on Trump's show. Yes, they get left on the tarmac.

O'BRIEN: That's so sad.

BERNARD: In "The Benefactor," Mark Cuban, they decide -- he decides. It's his whim, whether you get $1 million or not.

SIGESMUND: And they all live in -- this time, they all live in a house in Dallas for three weeks. That's basically what they've said about Mark Cuban's show.

BERNARD: Maybe we should give the million dollars to Michael Jackson for his (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: Please, let's not go there. Sarah, let's talk about P. Diddy. He's making his Broadway debut. I've got to tell you, I like P. Diddy. I'm a huge P. Diddy fan.

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: Would you go see him?

O'BRIEN: Yes, I'd go see him.

BERNARD: I think a lot of people feel the same way. Well, so now he's hip-hop mogul, fashion designer.

O'BRIEN: Marathoner.

BERNARD: He just signed a deal with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this week. Exactly. And now he's a Broadway star. This is the first time the play "Raising in the Sun" has been back to Broadway since 1959. I can't believe it. And Sidney Poitier was the person who originated this role. I mean, could you be more intimidated?

BOROWITZ: I think...

BERNARD: I can't believe it.

BOROWITZ: Now, I think...

O'BRIEN: Sidney Poitier on to P. Diddy.

BERNARD: Exactly.

BOROWITZ: I think it's a really good choice. You know, he had originally been talking about doing a revival of "Fiddler on the Roof," and I think that "Raising in the Sun" is a much, much better move.

BERNARD: Much better? Much more type casting.

SIGESMUND: You've got to admire P. Diddy's ego.

O'BRIEN: I'm telling you!

SIGESMUND: To be able to think...

BOROWITZ: Right.

SIGESMUND: ... that he could follow Sidney Poitier's footsteps and do the show, and he's going to do it all the way through July 15.

BERNARD: It's a big commitment.

SIGESMUND: So, even if the reviews are terrible and people hate him in this, he is committed all the way through.

BOROWITZ: Yes, if he's bad, he'll just change his name again.

SIGESMUND: Oh, and speaking of his name, he is Sean Combs when he does this show.

BOROWITZ: Oh, Sean Combs.

SIGESMUND: He's Sean Combs in this show.

O'BRIEN: I can't keep it all straight. Is he any good?

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: Yes, the reviews are not bad. And I have to say that what's interesting about him now is the fact that he's doing the marathon. He does not need to do this basically for fame. He doesn't need anymore fame.

O'BRIEN: It's a challenge.

BERNARD: He doesn't need anymore money. And he's just doing this because it's a fantasy of his.

O'BRIEN: I've got to tell you, I like...

SIGESMUND: You're there!

O'BRIEN: No, I think it's bigger than that. I like P. Diddy. I think he always stretches the boundaries. You know, he moves on to the next thing.

BERNARD: He does. I mean, it's putting yourself out there to have everybody come to watch you.

O'BRIEN: You go, P. Diddy! I'm going to be in the front row every night cheering you on, even if you're not very good. You wait and see.

BERNARD: Well, I think he's not bad.

O'BRIEN: Oh, good. Well, we'll wait and see.

Let's talk movies. "13 Going on 30," this looks very funny, Jennifer Garner is in it.

Yes. I saw "13 Going on 30" actually.

O'BRIEN: Did you like it?

SIGESMUND: I was in Florida last weekend visiting my mother, and we went to one of those sneak previews that they had on Saturday night.

BERNARD: Oh!

O'BRIEN: Oh! You took your mom!

SIGESMUND: But the funniest part was, there were so many little kids in the audience, we felt like we were at a 12-year-old's birthday party. Like, we were the oldest people. I was old by like 20 years. BOROWITZ: Thanks for the warning, B.J.

(CROSSTALK)

SIGESMUND: This is, you know, Jennifer Garner, it's basically a female version of "Big." She's a 13-year-old who wishes she was 30 and she could skip adolescence. And one morning she wakes up and she is 30. And she's this fabulous magazine editor in New York.

O'BRIEN: But mean and nasty, because she came out with the wrong girl...

SIGESMUND: But yes, right.

O'BRIEN: ... in junior high school.

SIGESMUND: It turns out she's like grown up to be this horrible person. So, she tries to change all of that. And I don't want to spoil too much about the movie, but it's pretty enjoyable.

BERNARD: I think what's interesting is that she apparently is really like that in person. We're so used to her being the "Alias," you know, kicking-butt girl. But apparently in real life she's more like the giggly 13-year-old. And that's why she said she wanted to do it.

O'BRIEN: I've got two seconds, and I want to hear if "Clifford's Really Big Movie" is any good, because I'm going to take my daughter to see that.

SIGESMUND: Well, I don't know if it's really, really big, but I think that the kid audience is going to be there this weekend. I mean, these movies always do well. And this is an old-fashioned G- rated movie. John Ritter, the late John Ritter actually voices Clifford, and, you know, I think that...

BERNARD: I don't know if that's going to be a good thing or bad thing for...

SIGESMUND: I think it will be a good thing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) draw.

BOROWITZ: Is Ben Diesel (ph) in it?

SIGESMUND: No.

BOROWITZ: Then I'm not going.

O'BRIEN: Then I'm not going either, darn it.

BOROWITZ: There's nothing for me to see this weekend.

O'BRIEN: I love him, too. He's going to do a movie so we can talk about it in "90-Second Pop" one of these days.

SIGESMUND: This summer he has one. O'BRIEN: Oh, good.

BOROWITZ: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Maybe we'll bring him in as a guest.

(CROSSTALK)

BERNARD: He can sit right here next to me.

BOROWITZ: I think Sarah wants him right there.

O'BRIEN: No, no, girl, he's right here.

BOROWITZ: All right, I'm over it.

O'BRIEN: All right, you guys, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Soledad, we'll get a break here. In a moment, how much do you want to know about your presidential candidate? Jack has some answers in a moment here after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Back to Jack and the question of the day.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Bill.

"The Washington Post" is reporting this morning that Senator John Kerry has now released information about the 200 lobbyists he's met with over the last 13-14 years. He began posting his military records on his Web site this week. And the "Post" reports Kerry is rethinking his decision to keep his wife's tax records secret.

President Bush's records have also been a hot topic, and at tax time the president and his wife only made parts of their returns available.

The question is this: How much do we need to know about the presidential candidates? And here are some of the answers.

Irwin in Woodsville, New Hampshire: "Now that the Republican demands for Kerry's military records have been posted, in the interest of bipartisanship, shouldn't the records of all of the leaders be disclosed? Let's see the military records of Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rove, Rumsfeld and other leaders who are sending our men into the mouth of the cannon."

John writes: "Everything should be disclosed. Let's find out where the candidates' personal income comes from, and then we will find out what their agenda will be. No politician acts against his own self-interest. And Michael writes from Heron, South Dakota: "I don't know anything about Kerry's access to the Heinz fortune, and I need to catch up."

HEMMER: Yes, he does.

O'BRIEN: That's funny.

HEMMER: You know...

O'BRIEN: I get that.

HEMMER: After that list, who wants to be president, huh?

CAFFERTY: What's that?

HEMMER: You have to reveal everything in your entire life, you know.

CAFFERTY: I know.

HEMMER: You really have to want the job to go as far as some of these guys.

CAFFERTY: Well, you know, it's a catch-22. If there's stuff that you don't want people to know, then they are going to scream that you reveal it.

HEMMER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: If you've got a clean record, nobody cares.

HEMMER: OK, a good topic, too.

O'BRIEN: It is.

HEMMER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, what's Michael Jackson's next move now that he's been indicted by a California grand jury? A former close advisor joins us next here on AMERICAN MORNING.

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