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Lou Dobbs Tonight
New U.S. Fallujah Offensive Threatened; U.S. Company Wins Outsourcing Battle
Aired April 23, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, the U.S. military threats a new offensive against Fallujah within days.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: Time is running out for the people of Fallujah that are behind the killings.
DOBBS: Administrator Paul Bremer defends his decision to hire former Baathists. Former CIA analyst Kenneth Pollack and former coalition adviser Michael Rubin join us. They have opposing views on the Bremer decision.
President Bush and Senator Kerry both say they will stand firm on Iraq. Political analysts Ron Brownstein and Carlos Watson join us.
In "Exporting America" tonight, an outsourcing story with a happy ending. A U.S. company closes a factory in Mexico and brings those jobs back to the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's great. I hope this happens to more companies.
DOBBS: And in "Heroes" tonight, the inspiring story about an American medic who was awarded a Medal for Bravery after a dramatic helicopter crash in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, April 23. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, American military commanders say U.S. Marines surrounding Fallujah will resume their offensive in days. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said time is running out for the insurgents to disarm. A senior officer in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force said Fallujah is the center of gravity for insurgency throughout Iraq.
Today, another American soldier was killed in a bomb attack 80 miles north of Baghdad.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, increasingly Pentagon officials are seeing the looming showdown in Fallujah as a potential turning point in the war against the Iraqi insurgents. With nearly two weeks of a one-sided cease-fire under way, fruitless negotiations going on with the town elders in Fallujah, the U.S. is signaling that Marines will storm the city within days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMMITT: We don't want to necessarily telegraph our moves, but we've been very consistent over the past 14 days that these discussions must bear fruit. Our patience is not eternal, and if we don't start seeing some results of these discussions, some good-faith efforts on the part of the enemy, we are prepared to end the suspension of offensive operations and resume them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: The 2,000 or so Marines surrounding Fallujah have come under regular fire from within the city and their demands to surrender all heavy weapons have been met with a paltry assortment of military junk, including rusty guns and dud bombs.
Now, Fallujah is seen different from the rest of Iraq. Pentagon officials predict it may by the last stand for the remnants of the old regime. In fact, they believe that among the fighters are some Saddam Hussein's most highly trained and effective troops from the old M14 antiterrorism directorate. In fact, according to a classified DIA report given to Congress this week, they believe that the rising level of violence in Iraq is directly attributable to a prewar master plan by some of these intelligence operatives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: The IIS established a campaign that was purposely decentralized so attacks could be carried out in the event that cell leaders were captured and killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: The U.S. also has troops around Najaf in the south, where the radical Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is holed up. He is now threatening that, if the U.S. moves against him, he will incite his followers to carry out suicide attacks against the coalition -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, if indeed we had intelligence that this group of counterintelligence people who worked for Saddam Hussein were going to carry out this plan, why was the plan not blunted earlier?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear, because, of course, Secretary Wolfowitz read part of the classified report in public. He gave the rest to Congress in a private, closed session.
Presumably, this is new intelligence that was developed after the war, not something the U.S. knew ahead of time. DOBBS: Jamie thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Britain, this country's closest ally in the war, is considering sending more troops to Iraq. There are currently 8,000 British soldiers in southern Iraq. British news organizations say 1,700 more British soldiers could be deployed to central Iraq. They would replace Spanish troops, who are returning home.
Tonight, another ally, Norway, said it will pull its troops from Iraq in June as planned. Norway has 180 soldiers in southern Iraq. The Norwegian government said those troops are needed in Afghanistan.
The U.S. civil administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, today said there is no room for the Saddam Hussein's Baathist ideology in Iraq. But Bremer said the policy of removing Baathists from Iraqi government service has been poorly implemented. Bremer's comments one come day after the United States said it will allow thousands of former Baathists to take Iraqi government jobs.
Jim Clancy reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Friday's message came from the top to all Iraqis.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: Working together, we can create the future you want.
CLANCY: While depicted as a mere technical adjustment some saw Bremer's national address on the U.S.-funded television channel as an effort to correct past mistakes.
On the military front, the policy shift may reflect the lessons learned in April as security plunged and casualties soared. The Iraqi army and police trained by the U.S. performed poorly. Friday, Bremer said former high-ranking officers not involved in the crimes of Saddam Hussein's regime would come back.
BREMER: Over 70 percent of the men in the Iraqi army and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps served honorably in the former army. They have asked to serve their country again and we welcome their renewed service.
CLANCY: Also dismissed after the war, more than 10,000 Iraqi teachers who had membership in the Baath Party, a measure some say has hurt the education of all Iraqis.
BREMER: This will allow thousands of teachers to return to work. Thousands more will begin receiving pensions this week.
CLANCY: While reconstruction efforts have suffered as some giant foreign contractors pulled out staff to avoid kidnapping, Ambassador Bremer said he ordered other projects accelerated, a move that may create more than a million jobs. BREMER: I have told my colleagues in the coalition to accelerate these projects everywhere in the country. We expect that they will create over a million and a half jobs over the next year. I have instructed the coalition to give priority to Iraqi firms whenever possible in order to create as many opportunities for Iraqis as possible.
CLANCY: Iraqis will welcome a greater share of the billions of dollars in reconstruction money U.S. taxpayers are pouring into the country. Many argue Iraqis can do the work cheaper and employment is the best way to convince people they have a stake in their country's future.
(on camera): In many ways, Bremer's address was in itself an effort to rebuild, rebuild trust after some of the worst violence in more than a year. It also sent the message that the coalition was prepared not only to tell Iraqis how to run their country, but to listen to their ideas as well.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The coalition will hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis in just 10 weeks. But it's still not clear how much power the new Iraqi government will actually have. A senior State Department official this week said Iraq will have only limited sovereignty after June 30. Today, coalition spokesman Dan Senor said the new Iraqi administration will be only an interim government.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On June 30, who's in charge here?
DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: The Iraqi people will have sovereignty on June 30. And they will be in control of their political destiny. They will be running their country. Jerry Bremer will get on a plane and go home and an Iraqis will be in charge here.
PILGRIM: U.S. officials this week talked to Congress about the transfer of more than 20 ministries to Iraqi control.
MARC GROSSMAN, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: The Iraqi Ministry of Health is now run by Iraqis, period. That's all. Jerry Bremer doesn't go there and tell them what to do. And on the 1st of July, all of those ministries will be run by Iraqis.
PILGRIM: The current American-picked Iraqi Governing Council will be disbanded. But with only 10 weeks to go, according to the plan outlined by special United Nations envoy Lakhdar Brahimi, there is no clear decision who will be in the interim government and how it will be formed. Iraqis have no authority to enact new laws. Some see a problem with that.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: This concept of limited sovereignty to the new Iraqi government is a contradiction of what we said before, that we would turn over full sovereignty after June 30.
PILGRIM: The United States will continue paying the bulk of the more than $18 billion reconstruction bill, and U.S. troops will stay. Senator Joseph Biden this week asked, what's so different about that?
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: On July the 1st, they're going to wake up and there is going to 160,000 American troops and an American ambassador pulling the strings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, in matters of security, the current plan looks very complicated. American commanders have the ultimate authority to make decisions, but they have to -- quote -- "do their best to consult with the interim Iraqi government" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, as you say, complicated. Thank you.
Next, more on Iraq, a dramatic policy shift. Former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party will serve in the new Iraqi government. I'll be joined by a leading expert on Iraq, Ken Pollack.
And in "Heroes" tonight, an Army medic with an inspiring story, a Medal for Bravery.
And in "Exporting America" tonight, some good news to report tonight, a rare victory for opponents of the export of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. Put down one for the good guys.
All of that and more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Ken Pollack was one of the leading advocates of going to war against Saddam Hussein. A year later, he says the United States is right to change its policy and offer former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party jobs in the new Iraqi government. Ken Pollack is director of research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution, former CIA analyst, joining us tonight from Washington.
Ken, the idea that we've moved from de-Baathification to now re- Baathification strikes many as just a bit of a breathless, abrupt shift.
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Right.
There's no question, Lou, that I'm sure this is very confusing to a lot of people. I think the simplest way to put this is that we went way too far at the beginning. We were rather arbitrary and, in particular, we put the de-Baathification program in charge of a group of Iraqis who honestly had a lot of axes of their own to grind. And, as a result, they excluded a lot of very capable people from the Iraqi civil service and also the Iraqi military. They created problems in running those services and also alienated big chunks of the country, particularly the Sunni tribal population, who are the ones who are giving us so much trouble up in the Sunni Triangle.
DOBBS: Well, weren't the Sunnis in point of fact just Baathists the reason we went to war against Saddam Hussein, to end his bloody despotism, his cruelty, and that support obviously coming from the Baathists themselves? What has happened? There's been a shift here that is -- as I say, it's breathtaking.
POLLACK: Yes.
And, Lou, there's no question that there were very important elements of the Sunni community and very important elements of the Baath Party who were Saddam's key supporters. That said, not every Baathist was a dyed-in-the-wool Saddam loyalist. The Baath Party in Iraq was very much like the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. If you wanted to get ahead in any line of work, teacher, doctor, lawyer, whatever, you pretty much had to be a Baathist.
DOBBS: And you pretty much had to be a Sunni, too.
POLLACK: Well, certainly that's also the case, that the Sunnis dominated that power structure.
DOBBS: What in the world is the U.S. government and Administrator Bremer, for that matter, and the succeeding interim government and the government after that, if there is to be one, say to the majority Shia population again?
POLLACK: I think what the administration needs to say to the Shia population -- and, honestly, a lot of the Shia I speak to people recognize this need -- is that you simply can't exclude the Sunnis.
They're not the majority, but they form 15 to 20 percent of the population, and those people simply can't be cut out of a new government. The whole point of democracy is that everyone has to be brought in. And, unfortunately, by taking de-Baathification too far at the beginning, we were effectively excluding that 15 percent of the population.
DOBBS: Ahmad Chalabi said -- and I suspect you are already aware of this -- that bring into the interim government is akin to bringing Nazis into the succeeding German government following World War II.
POLLACK: Yes, I have seen that Ahmad Chalabi has said that.
And the problem is that Ahmad Chalabi is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Chalabi is the person who has been trying to exclude all of these people, because, in many cases, they are his potential rivals.
DOBBS: Potential rivals. You suggest he's a clear-cut problem. He's a part of the -- for better or worse, he's part of the solution, at least as far as the coalition is looking at it at this point. It looks like about the only consistency here in terms of problems is the half-steps, the reversals, and occasionally the abrupt departures for the U.S. administration of a post-Saddam Iraq.
Given the string of failures in administering post-Saddam Iraq, why are we, or for that matter and perhaps more importantly the Iraqis themselves, to have any greater confidence in the stability and the direction of their country?
POLLACK: Look, Lou, it's a great question. You're absolutely right. This administration has steadfastly refused to do a whole bunch of things that the Iraqis wanted them to do.
But I think the key here is the point that I think it was Kitty Pilgrim made in the last package, which is, this is something that Iraqis have been asking Bremer to do for a very long time. And I thought that his address today was great, because it was trying to reach out to the Iraqis and say, you know what? We recognize we made a mistake and we're now trying to fix it.
DOBBS: The recognition of mistakes, if indeed that is what this is, is obviously admirable whenever any bureaucracy or any leader admits so and changes policy. Let's hope for everyone's sake that it is the correct assessment.
Ken Pollack, good to have you with us.
POLLACK: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Turning to tonight's poll, the question: Do you think Americans have a clear vision of our future, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
When we continue, bringing jobs back home. One American company has learned it doesn't always pay to export American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. We'll have that very special report for you.
And this week's "Newsmakers" on the exporting of America, a rising, burdensome trade deficit, the war in Iraq and a great deal more. The editors of the nation's leading business magazines join us.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We report here, it seems, almost every night on American companies, U.S. multinationals that ship jobs overseas to cheap overseas labor markets.
Tonight, in "Exporting America," an outsourcing story with a surprising and happy ending. A Massachusetts company decided to shut down its factory in Mexico and to bring those jobs back home.
Peter Viles reports from Hudson, Massachusetts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hudson Lock turns out 20 million locks a year. but when Joel Liberto took over last year, he found out only 30 percent of the orders were being shipped on time and big customers were not happy.
JOEL LIBERTO, PRESIDENT, HUDSON LOCK: He literally told me, Joel, you're my worst supplier, and I'm going to leave you. You're going to lose all this business unless you fix it.
VILES: Hudson already had a new factory in Mexico, and Liberto was warning his workers he might send even more jobs to Mexico, but then he realized Mexico was the problem. Yes, the labor is cheap, but logistical snafus, shipping delays and shipping costs were killing him.
LIBERTO: If I have poor delivery and I'm losing customers because of that poor delivery, that's kind of hard to quantify.
VILES: So he did the unthinkable. He shut down the Mexico factory, hired 30 new workers at the Massachusetts plant and focused on efficiency, reliability, and customer service.
GERRY MORRISON, HUDSON LOCK EMPLOYEE: It was great. It was really great. You know, and we're pleasing our customers now. And that's a good feeling, because, before, we had no control over it, and now we have control.
DAVE EDES, HUDSON LOCK EMPLOYEE: On-time delivery is up. Our customers are happy. Our people are happy. Everyone is flowing good.
VILES: Now 99 percent of Hudson locks are shipped on time and every one of them is made in the United States.
LIBERTO: While it personally gives me a warm feeling to say, yes, I brought back jobs to the United States, you know, this was a business decision, and I think most people would have to look at this as a business decision.
VILES (on camera): What happened this spring at Hudson Lock is confounding the conventional wisdom. It says that jobs lost to outsourcing don't have to be lost forever, and it says the road to manufacturing success doesn't have to run through cheap overseas labor markets.
Peter Viles, CNN, Hudson, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead here, a stunning U.S. policy change in Iraq. Former coalition adviser Michael Rubin joins us and says that reversal could have dire consequences. He's our guest next.
Also tonight, a dangerous rescue mission in Iraq earned Sergeant Kristen Sketchley, one of the military's highest honors. We'll have her inspiring story tonight in "Heroes." And a noteworthy week for fund-raising in the presidential campaign. Joining us, CNN political analyst Carlos Watson, "Los Angeles Times" political correspondent Ron Brownstein.
All of that, a great more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says the United States is making a mistake allowing members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party to rejoin a new government in Iraq. Michael Rubin says the move could alienate Iraq's Shia majority, among other pitfalls.
Michael Rubin is a former adviser to the Coalition Provisional Authority. He's now at the American Enterprise Institute, joining us from Washington.
Good to have you back with us.
MICHAEL RUBIN, FORMER PENTAGON ADVISER: Thanks. Good to be here.
DOBBS: In talking with Ken Pollack just moments ago, he thinks that this is a manifestation of flexibility and adjustment to new circumstances. I suppose in Washington you would say new circumstances on the ground. But the fact is, it is breathtaking in its abruptness and its departure from previous policy.
RUBIN: I agree it's a manifestation, but it's a manifestation of weakness. This flip-flop is going to cost us. We're going to end up with a Pyrrhic victory. Maybe we'll win the hearts and minds of perhaps the 20,000 Baathists who were affected by the de- Baathification policy, but we're going to alienate more than half the country in doing so.
DOBBS: What do you think is motivating Administrator Bremer to go to de-Baathification to re-Baathification?
RUBIN: There's a myth out there that by firing the top tiers of the Baath Party on May 15, soon after Bremer established himself, that somehow we slowed down the reconstruction of the country. Bremer may be trying to correct that, but that's a myth.
Under Saddam Hussein, technocrats, employees of the government weren't promoted on their technocratic ability. They were promoted for their political loyalty to a regime whose ideology is based on 1940s Italian fascism and 1940s German Nazism.
DOBBS: Well, that's, first, an intriguing point, and one so powerful that it seems hard to imagine that U.S. administrators and the U.S. coalition -- the United States and the coalition could miss the point. But you think they have?
RUBIN: Well, actually, I think the reasoning for the decision may have much more to do with some of the countries outside of Iraq than inside Iraq. My understanding is that much of this decision -- and this is based on various articles I've read and such -- is being made by Central Command, U.S. CENTCOM, which deals with countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Kuwait, Iraq's neighbors.
They each have substantial Shia populations. In Bahrain, they're the majority. And when our military officers talk to their military officers, we always hear this idea that maybe from the Bahrainis, from the Saudis, from the Kuwaitis, maybe democracy is not so good an idea. Maybe we should be a little bit nicer to those top-level Baathists who got their positions, again, not on their merit, but by informing on their peers.
DOBBS: You said Shia. In the case of Saudi Arabia, for example, the Sunni majority -- the royal family is Sunni and the leadership is predominantly Sunni. Is there that bond that you're suggesting?
RUBIN: There's actually a sizable minority, maybe 10 percent to 20 percent of Shia in Saudi Arabia, and they happen to be in the area of Saudi Arabia where the oil fields are. Saudi Arabia is very nervous about the idea of a democracy on its border, especially a democracy which will recognize the legitimate rights of the majority of Iraq's population, which in this case happens to be Shia.
It's important not to have tyranny of the majority, but that said, what we're doing is playing into the idea that Iraq Shia have that once again we are abandoning them like we did in the past.
DOBBS: Is there, as some have charged, some relation in your judgment between this decision to re-Baath -- to bring back the Baath Party, in point of fact, and the standoff in Fallujah?
RUBIN: Right.
Well, this is what I don't fully understand, because what's happening in Fallujah is a real problem, but I also look at what's not happening. The Baath Party wasn't just the party of Fallujah. It was a party that was popular in towns like Mosul, Tikrit, Samarra, Baquba, and other towns in the Sunni Triangle.
Now, the issue is, if the trouble really was de-Baathification, then how come we're not seeing problems in these other towns? It looks much more like the Fallujah problem is not a de-Baathification problem, but an isolated problem. And it's important to keep that in perspective.
DOBBS: We're out of time here, Michael. Your best judgment as to what will transpire now?
RUBIN: What I'm afraid will happen is that, if Iraq's population doesn't see that they can come to us as a protector, that we're going to drive Iraq's Shia population into the arms of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
DOBBS: Michael Rubin, thank you for being here.
RUBIN: Thank you. DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on foreign policy: "We cannot be any stronger in our foreign policy, for all the bombs and guns we may heap up in our arsenals, than we are in the spirit which rules inside the country. Foreign policy, like a river, cannot rise above its source" -- those the words of former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Adlai Stevenson.
In "Heroes" tonight, the story of a young soldier who joined the army to pursue her dreams. She never dreamed that she would be a decorated war hero. Casey Wian has her story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SGT. KRISTEN SKETCHLEY, U.S. ARMY: Have you ever looked at this, dad?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Kristin Sketchly is at home in Danville, California for the first time in over two years. She's been to Iraq twice, flying medivac, treating soldiers and Iraqi civilians.
SKETCHLEY: In medicine, you can never say you've seen it all, but I sure saw a lot.
WIAN: Saving lives is routine for Sketchley, but one particular rescue earned one of the army's highest honors, a soldier's medal for bravery. Holed up during a sandstorm, Sketchley and her team hear a helicopter and scramble outside to see it trying to land.
SKETCHLEY: All of a sudden you hear this bam, bam, bam, and we just hit the ground, we thought we were being attacked, we didn't know what was happening. And then this sound that I will never forget of just crunching metal, and just this turning and churning. It sounded like just something from outerspace.
WIAN: The helicopter crashed and Sketchley rushed to pull the pilot from the wreckage.
SKETCHLEY: We didn't know what was going to happen. The external fuel tanks had exploded, there was ammunition everywhere.
WIAN: The pilot survived with only minor injuries. Weeks later, Sketchley learned there would be another reward for her heroism.
SKETCHLEY: My commander pulled me aside and said congratulations, Sergeant Sketchley, and I'm like, what for? I'm thinking, oh great, what, what did I do? And he said that you were awarded the Soldier's Medal. And my jaw just dropped. I couldn't believe it.
WIAN: Sketchley plans to be a nurse when her military career ends next spring. Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Pat Tillman, one-time rising star was killed in action in Afghanistan yesterday. The 27-year-old Tillman walked away from a multimillion dollar football career to serve his country. Turning down the army's offer to begin as officers, Tillman and his brother Kevin, both enlisted in May of 2002.
Tillman was an Army Ranger, part of the special forces, a member of the 75th Ranger Regiment out of Ft. Benning, Georgia. This was Tillman's second tour of duty. He had also served in Iraq. He was killed in a gun battle while hunting for al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in southeastern Afghanistan, where 80 other Americans have been killed in action.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
DOBBS: ...Carlos Watson, CNN political analyst, both of them in Washington, D.C. tonight, I suppose appropriately enough. Gentlemen, good to have you here. We're looking at polls that right now seem to be favoring the president. To what can we attribute that?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, a lot of people are scratching their heads here in Washington over the strong polls for the president in the past week after the tough news in Iraq and after the confrontation and controversy before the 9/11 commission.
There are probably two big reasons why President Bush has moved up a bit in the last few weeks. One is the economic news is a little better. His approval rating on the economy went up quite a bit in the Gallup poll.
Secondly, and this may see counter-intuitive, the sheer focus on Iraq and terrorism plays toward his strongest hand, the sense that he would be better positioned than John Kerry, at the moment, in the eyes of the electorate, to protect America from threats abroad.
Having said all that, Lou, the key number to watch is the president's own approval rating, which is still right around 51 or 52. If that moves up, he will drift away from Kerry. If it stays there, John Kerry may resurface.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I would add a couple things to what Ron said. I think some of the Bush campaign strategy has worked out well, too. They spend a record $50 million-plus over the last several weeks, not only defining the president's position, but defining John Kerry's. And I think that's certainly made a difference.
And significantly, in addition to the money that you see on television, they're also spending a lot of money in the so-called ground game. Literally tens of thousands of phone calls, knocking on doors, e-mails. This ground game I think is as important as the air game, if you will, that you're seeing. I think it's helping to bolster his support in some of these battleground states. I think there are a number of factors that are leading us, frankly, to be a little bit surprised, as Ron said, that after a difficult several weeks, a number of the polls are still showing the president up. Granted, only by a couple of points, but still up.
DOBBS: We're some hearing some restiveness of this, as both you know, about Senator Kerry's aggressiveness at this point in the campaign, and admittedly, it is very early in this campaign. How serious an issue is that for Senator Kerry? Carlos?
WATSON: Well, two interesting things. One is, as Ron and I have talked about, John Kerry's the first Catholic nominee in this post-Roe v. Wade area, and so there's an additional amount of electricity around the conversation. But what's interesting, is that today John Kerry was at a pro-choice rally, stood on behalf..
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
BROWNSTEIN: ...conversation, talking about issues far from the central focus in Iraq. And terror, he still hasn't crystallized a single (AUDIO GAP) ...President and George Bush shouldn't and they focus a lot of their time on raising money.
Now they are moving into a more aggressive mode, putting some of that money into television they're going to be airing in the battle ground states, trying to fill in the impression of John Kerry.
There is nervousness about the way this is unfolding, but there's also recognition that this is very early. And in the end I think most people will believe the perceptions of President Bush will be more critical in the race than the assessments of John Kerry. And the real marker here is, does President Bush get that approval rating safely above 50 percent.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, since you've raised it, how important is religion going to be in this election? President Bush has been criticized in some quarters for being too overt in his religiosity, if you will. Senator Kerry has actually run to a point counter to his church. How important will it be?
BROWNSTEIN: If you ask political consultants in both parties, what single piece of information...
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
WATSON: ... strategist in the past has talked about evangelical Christians, several million of whom he believes stayed home last time, and who he hopes to see come to the polls and in addition the major voter registration efforts that the Republicans have, they're hoping to register some 3 million new voters, a large percentage of that effort is based around getting these religious voters that Ron talked about. So this issue is very important from a number of different vantage points.
DOBBS: Carlos, thank you. Ron, thank you. Gentlemen, we appreciate it.
Still ahead here, we'll share some of your thoughts about the issues of the day, and we'll discuss Alan Greenspan's comments and concerns about job growth as well as the rest of the week's news with tonight's news makers. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight's news in brief, North Korea says hundreds of people were killed, thousands more injured in yesterday's massive train explosion near the Chinese border. North Korea has invited foreign aid workers to travel to the disaster scene. Officials suspect the blast was ignited when a rail car carrying explosives touched a live power cable.
Israel's prime minister says he no longer feels bound by his pledge not to harm Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. According to a senior administration official, the Bush White House bluntly warned Ariel Sharon it considers, quote, "a pledge a pledge." Sharon said he told President Bush last week he would not rule out an attack on Arafat.
The White House today said U.S. companies can resume most trade with Libya, easing nearly two decades of economic sanctions. The White House said the move is a reward to Muammar Gaddafi for giving up his weapons of mass destruction.
On Wall Street, stocks up for a third straight day and for the week as well. The Dow up almost 12 points today, the Nasdaq jumping almost 17. The S&P up a fraction.
New York's Attorney General Eliot Spitzer tonight has a new target in his fight against corporate crime. Christine Romans is here to tell us all about that -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, three big insurance brokers confirm they have received subpoenas from Spitzer's office in what looks like the early stages of an investigation into the insurance business. Under the microscope, payments from insurance companies to insurance brokers to allocate business. 12 companies have been subpoenaed. Some say these compensation agreements are common. Spitzer wants to know if they're kickbacks and if they're fully disclosed and if they're conflicts of interest.
Now, Lou, on Wall Street this week, much is being made of strong earnings news and the wide margin by which companies are beating Wall Street expectations. Two ways to look at that. It is, one, earnings are so strong they're beating Wall Street estimates by and large. The other is that Wall Street analysts are more wrong than they've been in years.
DOBBS: Analysts wrong?
ROMANS: Analysts wrong. They really got this quarter wrong. 24 percent earnings growth. When this quarter began, analyst estimates were for just about 10 or 15.
DOBBS: Under the heading of underpromise and overdeliver, it looks like a very strong quarter.
ROMANS: Absolutely. It's been a very strong quarter and analysts, though, over the past year have been under all kinds of new stringent guidelines, so I guess maybe you can't, I don't know, give them too much of a hard time for being conservative.
DOBBS: Why not?
ROMANS: Because they're under the microscope just like these other folks.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much.
A look now at some of your thoughts. Tonight on exporting America, Charlie in Vancouver, Washington.
"Proponents of outsourcing claim products sold in the U.S. under this policy will be cheaper to consumers. Are they going to be free? They had better be because nothing is what an unemployed person has to spend."
Lynn Cowden (ph) of Des Moines, Iowa. "The corporate mantra on outsourcing always deals with the high cost of American labor yet American CEOs make salaries that are often thousands of times higher than what the same position would pay in a foreign owned company. When will American CEOs start reducing their salaries?
James Stricker of Crete, Illinois. "Lou, your constant diatribe against outsourcing astounds me. Outsourcing reduces labor costs allowing companies to sell goods at lower costs or higher profit margins. Outsourcing is helping many people afford products they otherwise could not afford.
Joyce Fowler, Duanesburg, New York. "If we keep sending our high-paying jobs overseas, middle-class America will no longer exist. This practice will eventually break the back of the middle class. Hopefully, our elected leaders will catch on before it's too late.
We love hearing from you. Send us your comments at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Still ahead here, the newsmakers. Three leading journalists from the nation's top business magazines. First, check our website for the complete list of companies that we've confirmed to be exporting America. There are more than 500 and rising. CNN.com/lou. We continue in a moment. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results now of tonight's poll. Only 5 percent of you responded saying you believe Americans have a clear vision of our future; 95 percent say no.
Well, the economy has added a half million new jobs so far this year. That's a brighter picture than it otherwise has been, but Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan this week said he's not yet convinced the job market is really improving. That surprised a lot of people, and it is certainly not welcome news for the more than eight million unemployed Americans. Joining us tonight, tonight's "Newsmakers." Rik Kirkland, the managing editor of "Fortune" magazine, Jim Ellis, chief of correspondents at "BusinessWeek" magazine, Tim Ferguson, editor of "Forbes." Gentlemen, good to have you here. Let's start with the poll results. I expected some negativity, but that's a remarkable response. I mean, do you -- what do you think, do we have a clear vision of our future?
RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": I think people are very confused about it. I think there's so much uncertainly. You know, you go back to the post-9/11 world, the economy is better, it looks better, and yet we aren't creating jobs, so we don't feel so good.
You look overseas, we won the war in Iraq, but the peace is proving a heck of a thing to win. And I think every day you still get terror warnings, I think people -- and you've got worries about the deficit. And long term, I think there's a little bit of a confidence problem.
DOBBS: Jim?
JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": Yeah, I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding now exactly where do we stand in the world. We'd like to think that we're the strongest economic power in the world, but at the same time we've got this real big problem of underemployment. We've got a problem in the Middle East that we can't seem to get our hands around. Less and less, you know, of us being in control. I think that that's the big problems. Americans feel out of control.
DOBBS: Tim?
TIM FERGUSON, "FORBES": I'm not sure that ferment suggests lack of confidence. We're in a changing world, and I would rather be in a country in ferment rather than one in sort of static, in a sense like old Europe.
DOBBS: Right. The idea that...
KIRKLAND: I think the clarity is what's missing. I'm not sure people are lacking in confidence, but I don't think they know exactly where we're going. I think that's what you were asking.
DOBBS: Yes. When you talk about ferment, let's talk about dynamism, as opposed to ferment, because that's what we as Americans have come to expect, really, from our society, from our economy, and perhaps that's also missing here. But does this represent also just sort of the natural byproduct of an election year, in which you have a lot of negativity, obviously from the challenger and the challenger's party and a lot of electioneering from the incumbent? Is that a natural byproduct?
ELLIS: I actually think that it's more there. I think first of all, we've been -- a lot of us have grown up in a time when there have been very defined sort of rights and wrongs, you know, our system against communism. There was the U.S. against Russia. All of a sudden now we don't quite know who our enemies are, though they seem to be a lot more than we thought there would be. We don't quite know what our future will be. A lot of people are worried now that our kids won't have a life we ever had.
DOBBS: I would just argue with you, we know very precisely who our enemies are. It has been the choice of this administration, for whatever reason, to ignore the names of those enemies, and that is precisely radical Islamic terrorism. I mean, it's straightforward to me. Rik?
KIRKLAND: I also think there's a nervousness, again, there is this sort of uncertainty that is very vague. I mean, the whole focus on outsourcing that you've spent a lot of energy covering, I mean, people -- on the one hand, the news isn't bad. Dynamism is good. The economy, you know, its ability to adapt is something that we're very proud of. And yet we look at a world that's globalizing, competitors coming in from China and India, much larger populations, and people suddenly think, has it changed somehow? So I just think there is a -- I don't think anyone has a lot of answers that they're clear about here.
DOBBS: Let's talk about outsourcing. We've had the invent of something call insourcing now. The administration, its surrogates and supporters have latched on to something called insourcing, which I used to call foreign direct investment, but they seem to see that as a counterpoint to the export of cheap -- of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. Tim, what in the world is it going to take to get an honest debate in this country about anything? Whether it be trade, whether it be the quality of labor, opportunity in this country? Even the Fed chairman, Alan Greenspan, he was speaking as a humanist, not an economist, talking about the slow rate of job creation, about the fact that we are seeing huge numbers still on -- applying for unemployment benefits?
FERGUSON: I thought he was also talking about the likelihood of interest rates increases in the future...
DOBBS: Oh, absolutely (ph).
FERGUSON: ... stemming from the very strength of the economy. So I think there is, for all the pessimism and hand-wringing, there's a little grounds for optimism, at least in ...
DOBBS: Well, I'm absolutely an optimist, because I think corporate America has the strength, the resolve and resiliency to reform itself and to apply to a higher standard of concern for the communities and the stakeholders who make them possible. Jim, your thoughts?
ELLIS: Just I wish that we could all benefit in the way that we see numbers coming out now on corporate earnings. Corporate earnings are extremely strong right now.
DOBBS: Right.
ELLIS: Twenty-four percent. I mean, it's very, very good if you are a shareholder. If you are a manager right now and your bonus plan is built on these earnings...
DOBBS: If you're a CEO.
ELLIS: Right, but I still think that we're seeing a lot of weakness, not just in the employment numbers, but also in underemployment. That worries me more than anything else. A lot of people who would like -- who are prepared to have a better job cannot find better jobs. That's the real big issue. And that's the thing when the election rolls around, that's what people are going to be thinking about.
KIRKLAND: I also think that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) maybe an indictment of both candidates right now, and that I think people aren't hearing what that clear, positive vision is from either one. They feel like they're shooting at each other, he's a loser, his policies will mess it up, he's doing it all wrong, and they're not really getting a sense of, well, where are you going to take us?
DOBBS: That's a great point. Tim, do you agree with that? When you have 95 percent of respondents to a poll, even as ad hoc as this one, I mean, it really is a suggestion that's something is wrong in both quarters of the political parties, as there tends to be.
FERGUSON: There's a lot of ambivalence. And I suspect realistic. I'm not sure that the direction of policy making will change that much depending on who wins the election.
DOBBS: Why in the world not? When you look over the country's history, I mean, this is a proud, strong nation with a society of people who have created so much. Why in the world would we not be entitled to clear leadership, a clear vision of our future?
FERGUSON: Well, perhaps the choices are not as easy or diametrically opposed as we might want to have in a vivid kind of debate.
DOBBS: Well, I want vividity.
KIRKLAND: Bring it on, vividity. Bring on the...
DOBBS: Vividity. You know, as you suggested, I want to go back just very quickly. We got just about a minute. Alan Greenspan absolutely shocked me this week, and as you suggested, but he was talking with great concern about the fact that labor has not participated in this recovery. I never heard the Fed chairman talk about this. You got 15 seconds worth of thoughts on that?
KIRKLAND: Well, I mean, it's a very sensitive thing to say. Even when you're a Fed chairman, you know, it's nice to show humanity and empathy. And I think he's also addressing the point that -- setting up the thought that they will. He thinks that they will. He thinks that the profit margins will eventually flow to labor.
DOBBS: Let's have that as long as we have also vividity.
KIRKLAND: Vividity. DOBBS: Right along with...
KIRKLAND: My new slogan.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, gentlemen. That's our broadcast for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Please join us Monday. Stanford University professor Larry Diamond. He says the odds of democracy succeeding in Iraq are long indeed. He's our guest. And "America Works." All week long. Our feature series on the hard-working men and women in this country who make it all work. For all of us here, have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" up next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 23, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, the U.S. military threats a new offensive against Fallujah within days.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: Time is running out for the people of Fallujah that are behind the killings.
DOBBS: Administrator Paul Bremer defends his decision to hire former Baathists. Former CIA analyst Kenneth Pollack and former coalition adviser Michael Rubin join us. They have opposing views on the Bremer decision.
President Bush and Senator Kerry both say they will stand firm on Iraq. Political analysts Ron Brownstein and Carlos Watson join us.
In "Exporting America" tonight, an outsourcing story with a happy ending. A U.S. company closes a factory in Mexico and brings those jobs back to the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's great. I hope this happens to more companies.
DOBBS: And in "Heroes" tonight, the inspiring story about an American medic who was awarded a Medal for Bravery after a dramatic helicopter crash in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, April 23. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, American military commanders say U.S. Marines surrounding Fallujah will resume their offensive in days. Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said time is running out for the insurgents to disarm. A senior officer in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force said Fallujah is the center of gravity for insurgency throughout Iraq.
Today, another American soldier was killed in a bomb attack 80 miles north of Baghdad.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, increasingly Pentagon officials are seeing the looming showdown in Fallujah as a potential turning point in the war against the Iraqi insurgents. With nearly two weeks of a one-sided cease-fire under way, fruitless negotiations going on with the town elders in Fallujah, the U.S. is signaling that Marines will storm the city within days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMMITT: We don't want to necessarily telegraph our moves, but we've been very consistent over the past 14 days that these discussions must bear fruit. Our patience is not eternal, and if we don't start seeing some results of these discussions, some good-faith efforts on the part of the enemy, we are prepared to end the suspension of offensive operations and resume them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: The 2,000 or so Marines surrounding Fallujah have come under regular fire from within the city and their demands to surrender all heavy weapons have been met with a paltry assortment of military junk, including rusty guns and dud bombs.
Now, Fallujah is seen different from the rest of Iraq. Pentagon officials predict it may by the last stand for the remnants of the old regime. In fact, they believe that among the fighters are some Saddam Hussein's most highly trained and effective troops from the old M14 antiterrorism directorate. In fact, according to a classified DIA report given to Congress this week, they believe that the rising level of violence in Iraq is directly attributable to a prewar master plan by some of these intelligence operatives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: The IIS established a campaign that was purposely decentralized so attacks could be carried out in the event that cell leaders were captured and killed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: The U.S. also has troops around Najaf in the south, where the radical Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is holed up. He is now threatening that, if the U.S. moves against him, he will incite his followers to carry out suicide attacks against the coalition -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, if indeed we had intelligence that this group of counterintelligence people who worked for Saddam Hussein were going to carry out this plan, why was the plan not blunted earlier?
MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear, because, of course, Secretary Wolfowitz read part of the classified report in public. He gave the rest to Congress in a private, closed session.
Presumably, this is new intelligence that was developed after the war, not something the U.S. knew ahead of time. DOBBS: Jamie thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Britain, this country's closest ally in the war, is considering sending more troops to Iraq. There are currently 8,000 British soldiers in southern Iraq. British news organizations say 1,700 more British soldiers could be deployed to central Iraq. They would replace Spanish troops, who are returning home.
Tonight, another ally, Norway, said it will pull its troops from Iraq in June as planned. Norway has 180 soldiers in southern Iraq. The Norwegian government said those troops are needed in Afghanistan.
The U.S. civil administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, today said there is no room for the Saddam Hussein's Baathist ideology in Iraq. But Bremer said the policy of removing Baathists from Iraqi government service has been poorly implemented. Bremer's comments one come day after the United States said it will allow thousands of former Baathists to take Iraqi government jobs.
Jim Clancy reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Friday's message came from the top to all Iraqis.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: Working together, we can create the future you want.
CLANCY: While depicted as a mere technical adjustment some saw Bremer's national address on the U.S.-funded television channel as an effort to correct past mistakes.
On the military front, the policy shift may reflect the lessons learned in April as security plunged and casualties soared. The Iraqi army and police trained by the U.S. performed poorly. Friday, Bremer said former high-ranking officers not involved in the crimes of Saddam Hussein's regime would come back.
BREMER: Over 70 percent of the men in the Iraqi army and Iraqi Civil Defense Corps served honorably in the former army. They have asked to serve their country again and we welcome their renewed service.
CLANCY: Also dismissed after the war, more than 10,000 Iraqi teachers who had membership in the Baath Party, a measure some say has hurt the education of all Iraqis.
BREMER: This will allow thousands of teachers to return to work. Thousands more will begin receiving pensions this week.
CLANCY: While reconstruction efforts have suffered as some giant foreign contractors pulled out staff to avoid kidnapping, Ambassador Bremer said he ordered other projects accelerated, a move that may create more than a million jobs. BREMER: I have told my colleagues in the coalition to accelerate these projects everywhere in the country. We expect that they will create over a million and a half jobs over the next year. I have instructed the coalition to give priority to Iraqi firms whenever possible in order to create as many opportunities for Iraqis as possible.
CLANCY: Iraqis will welcome a greater share of the billions of dollars in reconstruction money U.S. taxpayers are pouring into the country. Many argue Iraqis can do the work cheaper and employment is the best way to convince people they have a stake in their country's future.
(on camera): In many ways, Bremer's address was in itself an effort to rebuild, rebuild trust after some of the worst violence in more than a year. It also sent the message that the coalition was prepared not only to tell Iraqis how to run their country, but to listen to their ideas as well.
Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The coalition will hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis in just 10 weeks. But it's still not clear how much power the new Iraqi government will actually have. A senior State Department official this week said Iraq will have only limited sovereignty after June 30. Today, coalition spokesman Dan Senor said the new Iraqi administration will be only an interim government.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On June 30, who's in charge here?
DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: The Iraqi people will have sovereignty on June 30. And they will be in control of their political destiny. They will be running their country. Jerry Bremer will get on a plane and go home and an Iraqis will be in charge here.
PILGRIM: U.S. officials this week talked to Congress about the transfer of more than 20 ministries to Iraqi control.
MARC GROSSMAN, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: The Iraqi Ministry of Health is now run by Iraqis, period. That's all. Jerry Bremer doesn't go there and tell them what to do. And on the 1st of July, all of those ministries will be run by Iraqis.
PILGRIM: The current American-picked Iraqi Governing Council will be disbanded. But with only 10 weeks to go, according to the plan outlined by special United Nations envoy Lakhdar Brahimi, there is no clear decision who will be in the interim government and how it will be formed. Iraqis have no authority to enact new laws. Some see a problem with that.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: This concept of limited sovereignty to the new Iraqi government is a contradiction of what we said before, that we would turn over full sovereignty after June 30.
PILGRIM: The United States will continue paying the bulk of the more than $18 billion reconstruction bill, and U.S. troops will stay. Senator Joseph Biden this week asked, what's so different about that?
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: On July the 1st, they're going to wake up and there is going to 160,000 American troops and an American ambassador pulling the strings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, in matters of security, the current plan looks very complicated. American commanders have the ultimate authority to make decisions, but they have to -- quote -- "do their best to consult with the interim Iraqi government" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, as you say, complicated. Thank you.
Next, more on Iraq, a dramatic policy shift. Former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party will serve in the new Iraqi government. I'll be joined by a leading expert on Iraq, Ken Pollack.
And in "Heroes" tonight, an Army medic with an inspiring story, a Medal for Bravery.
And in "Exporting America" tonight, some good news to report tonight, a rare victory for opponents of the export of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. Put down one for the good guys.
All of that and more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Ken Pollack was one of the leading advocates of going to war against Saddam Hussein. A year later, he says the United States is right to change its policy and offer former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party jobs in the new Iraqi government. Ken Pollack is director of research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at the Brookings Institution, former CIA analyst, joining us tonight from Washington.
Ken, the idea that we've moved from de-Baathification to now re- Baathification strikes many as just a bit of a breathless, abrupt shift.
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Right.
There's no question, Lou, that I'm sure this is very confusing to a lot of people. I think the simplest way to put this is that we went way too far at the beginning. We were rather arbitrary and, in particular, we put the de-Baathification program in charge of a group of Iraqis who honestly had a lot of axes of their own to grind. And, as a result, they excluded a lot of very capable people from the Iraqi civil service and also the Iraqi military. They created problems in running those services and also alienated big chunks of the country, particularly the Sunni tribal population, who are the ones who are giving us so much trouble up in the Sunni Triangle.
DOBBS: Well, weren't the Sunnis in point of fact just Baathists the reason we went to war against Saddam Hussein, to end his bloody despotism, his cruelty, and that support obviously coming from the Baathists themselves? What has happened? There's been a shift here that is -- as I say, it's breathtaking.
POLLACK: Yes.
And, Lou, there's no question that there were very important elements of the Sunni community and very important elements of the Baath Party who were Saddam's key supporters. That said, not every Baathist was a dyed-in-the-wool Saddam loyalist. The Baath Party in Iraq was very much like the Communist Party in the Soviet Union. If you wanted to get ahead in any line of work, teacher, doctor, lawyer, whatever, you pretty much had to be a Baathist.
DOBBS: And you pretty much had to be a Sunni, too.
POLLACK: Well, certainly that's also the case, that the Sunnis dominated that power structure.
DOBBS: What in the world is the U.S. government and Administrator Bremer, for that matter, and the succeeding interim government and the government after that, if there is to be one, say to the majority Shia population again?
POLLACK: I think what the administration needs to say to the Shia population -- and, honestly, a lot of the Shia I speak to people recognize this need -- is that you simply can't exclude the Sunnis.
They're not the majority, but they form 15 to 20 percent of the population, and those people simply can't be cut out of a new government. The whole point of democracy is that everyone has to be brought in. And, unfortunately, by taking de-Baathification too far at the beginning, we were effectively excluding that 15 percent of the population.
DOBBS: Ahmad Chalabi said -- and I suspect you are already aware of this -- that bring into the interim government is akin to bringing Nazis into the succeeding German government following World War II.
POLLACK: Yes, I have seen that Ahmad Chalabi has said that.
And the problem is that Ahmad Chalabi is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Chalabi is the person who has been trying to exclude all of these people, because, in many cases, they are his potential rivals.
DOBBS: Potential rivals. You suggest he's a clear-cut problem. He's a part of the -- for better or worse, he's part of the solution, at least as far as the coalition is looking at it at this point. It looks like about the only consistency here in terms of problems is the half-steps, the reversals, and occasionally the abrupt departures for the U.S. administration of a post-Saddam Iraq.
Given the string of failures in administering post-Saddam Iraq, why are we, or for that matter and perhaps more importantly the Iraqis themselves, to have any greater confidence in the stability and the direction of their country?
POLLACK: Look, Lou, it's a great question. You're absolutely right. This administration has steadfastly refused to do a whole bunch of things that the Iraqis wanted them to do.
But I think the key here is the point that I think it was Kitty Pilgrim made in the last package, which is, this is something that Iraqis have been asking Bremer to do for a very long time. And I thought that his address today was great, because it was trying to reach out to the Iraqis and say, you know what? We recognize we made a mistake and we're now trying to fix it.
DOBBS: The recognition of mistakes, if indeed that is what this is, is obviously admirable whenever any bureaucracy or any leader admits so and changes policy. Let's hope for everyone's sake that it is the correct assessment.
Ken Pollack, good to have you with us.
POLLACK: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Turning to tonight's poll, the question: Do you think Americans have a clear vision of our future, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
When we continue, bringing jobs back home. One American company has learned it doesn't always pay to export American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. We'll have that very special report for you.
And this week's "Newsmakers" on the exporting of America, a rising, burdensome trade deficit, the war in Iraq and a great deal more. The editors of the nation's leading business magazines join us.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We report here, it seems, almost every night on American companies, U.S. multinationals that ship jobs overseas to cheap overseas labor markets.
Tonight, in "Exporting America," an outsourcing story with a surprising and happy ending. A Massachusetts company decided to shut down its factory in Mexico and to bring those jobs back home.
Peter Viles reports from Hudson, Massachusetts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hudson Lock turns out 20 million locks a year. but when Joel Liberto took over last year, he found out only 30 percent of the orders were being shipped on time and big customers were not happy.
JOEL LIBERTO, PRESIDENT, HUDSON LOCK: He literally told me, Joel, you're my worst supplier, and I'm going to leave you. You're going to lose all this business unless you fix it.
VILES: Hudson already had a new factory in Mexico, and Liberto was warning his workers he might send even more jobs to Mexico, but then he realized Mexico was the problem. Yes, the labor is cheap, but logistical snafus, shipping delays and shipping costs were killing him.
LIBERTO: If I have poor delivery and I'm losing customers because of that poor delivery, that's kind of hard to quantify.
VILES: So he did the unthinkable. He shut down the Mexico factory, hired 30 new workers at the Massachusetts plant and focused on efficiency, reliability, and customer service.
GERRY MORRISON, HUDSON LOCK EMPLOYEE: It was great. It was really great. You know, and we're pleasing our customers now. And that's a good feeling, because, before, we had no control over it, and now we have control.
DAVE EDES, HUDSON LOCK EMPLOYEE: On-time delivery is up. Our customers are happy. Our people are happy. Everyone is flowing good.
VILES: Now 99 percent of Hudson locks are shipped on time and every one of them is made in the United States.
LIBERTO: While it personally gives me a warm feeling to say, yes, I brought back jobs to the United States, you know, this was a business decision, and I think most people would have to look at this as a business decision.
VILES (on camera): What happened this spring at Hudson Lock is confounding the conventional wisdom. It says that jobs lost to outsourcing don't have to be lost forever, and it says the road to manufacturing success doesn't have to run through cheap overseas labor markets.
Peter Viles, CNN, Hudson, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead here, a stunning U.S. policy change in Iraq. Former coalition adviser Michael Rubin joins us and says that reversal could have dire consequences. He's our guest next.
Also tonight, a dangerous rescue mission in Iraq earned Sergeant Kristen Sketchley, one of the military's highest honors. We'll have her inspiring story tonight in "Heroes." And a noteworthy week for fund-raising in the presidential campaign. Joining us, CNN political analyst Carlos Watson, "Los Angeles Times" political correspondent Ron Brownstein.
All of that, a great more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says the United States is making a mistake allowing members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party to rejoin a new government in Iraq. Michael Rubin says the move could alienate Iraq's Shia majority, among other pitfalls.
Michael Rubin is a former adviser to the Coalition Provisional Authority. He's now at the American Enterprise Institute, joining us from Washington.
Good to have you back with us.
MICHAEL RUBIN, FORMER PENTAGON ADVISER: Thanks. Good to be here.
DOBBS: In talking with Ken Pollack just moments ago, he thinks that this is a manifestation of flexibility and adjustment to new circumstances. I suppose in Washington you would say new circumstances on the ground. But the fact is, it is breathtaking in its abruptness and its departure from previous policy.
RUBIN: I agree it's a manifestation, but it's a manifestation of weakness. This flip-flop is going to cost us. We're going to end up with a Pyrrhic victory. Maybe we'll win the hearts and minds of perhaps the 20,000 Baathists who were affected by the de- Baathification policy, but we're going to alienate more than half the country in doing so.
DOBBS: What do you think is motivating Administrator Bremer to go to de-Baathification to re-Baathification?
RUBIN: There's a myth out there that by firing the top tiers of the Baath Party on May 15, soon after Bremer established himself, that somehow we slowed down the reconstruction of the country. Bremer may be trying to correct that, but that's a myth.
Under Saddam Hussein, technocrats, employees of the government weren't promoted on their technocratic ability. They were promoted for their political loyalty to a regime whose ideology is based on 1940s Italian fascism and 1940s German Nazism.
DOBBS: Well, that's, first, an intriguing point, and one so powerful that it seems hard to imagine that U.S. administrators and the U.S. coalition -- the United States and the coalition could miss the point. But you think they have?
RUBIN: Well, actually, I think the reasoning for the decision may have much more to do with some of the countries outside of Iraq than inside Iraq. My understanding is that much of this decision -- and this is based on various articles I've read and such -- is being made by Central Command, U.S. CENTCOM, which deals with countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Kuwait, Iraq's neighbors.
They each have substantial Shia populations. In Bahrain, they're the majority. And when our military officers talk to their military officers, we always hear this idea that maybe from the Bahrainis, from the Saudis, from the Kuwaitis, maybe democracy is not so good an idea. Maybe we should be a little bit nicer to those top-level Baathists who got their positions, again, not on their merit, but by informing on their peers.
DOBBS: You said Shia. In the case of Saudi Arabia, for example, the Sunni majority -- the royal family is Sunni and the leadership is predominantly Sunni. Is there that bond that you're suggesting?
RUBIN: There's actually a sizable minority, maybe 10 percent to 20 percent of Shia in Saudi Arabia, and they happen to be in the area of Saudi Arabia where the oil fields are. Saudi Arabia is very nervous about the idea of a democracy on its border, especially a democracy which will recognize the legitimate rights of the majority of Iraq's population, which in this case happens to be Shia.
It's important not to have tyranny of the majority, but that said, what we're doing is playing into the idea that Iraq Shia have that once again we are abandoning them like we did in the past.
DOBBS: Is there, as some have charged, some relation in your judgment between this decision to re-Baath -- to bring back the Baath Party, in point of fact, and the standoff in Fallujah?
RUBIN: Right.
Well, this is what I don't fully understand, because what's happening in Fallujah is a real problem, but I also look at what's not happening. The Baath Party wasn't just the party of Fallujah. It was a party that was popular in towns like Mosul, Tikrit, Samarra, Baquba, and other towns in the Sunni Triangle.
Now, the issue is, if the trouble really was de-Baathification, then how come we're not seeing problems in these other towns? It looks much more like the Fallujah problem is not a de-Baathification problem, but an isolated problem. And it's important to keep that in perspective.
DOBBS: We're out of time here, Michael. Your best judgment as to what will transpire now?
RUBIN: What I'm afraid will happen is that, if Iraq's population doesn't see that they can come to us as a protector, that we're going to drive Iraq's Shia population into the arms of the Islamic Republic of Iran.
DOBBS: Michael Rubin, thank you for being here.
RUBIN: Thank you. DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on foreign policy: "We cannot be any stronger in our foreign policy, for all the bombs and guns we may heap up in our arsenals, than we are in the spirit which rules inside the country. Foreign policy, like a river, cannot rise above its source" -- those the words of former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Adlai Stevenson.
In "Heroes" tonight, the story of a young soldier who joined the army to pursue her dreams. She never dreamed that she would be a decorated war hero. Casey Wian has her story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SGT. KRISTEN SKETCHLEY, U.S. ARMY: Have you ever looked at this, dad?
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Kristin Sketchly is at home in Danville, California for the first time in over two years. She's been to Iraq twice, flying medivac, treating soldiers and Iraqi civilians.
SKETCHLEY: In medicine, you can never say you've seen it all, but I sure saw a lot.
WIAN: Saving lives is routine for Sketchley, but one particular rescue earned one of the army's highest honors, a soldier's medal for bravery. Holed up during a sandstorm, Sketchley and her team hear a helicopter and scramble outside to see it trying to land.
SKETCHLEY: All of a sudden you hear this bam, bam, bam, and we just hit the ground, we thought we were being attacked, we didn't know what was happening. And then this sound that I will never forget of just crunching metal, and just this turning and churning. It sounded like just something from outerspace.
WIAN: The helicopter crashed and Sketchley rushed to pull the pilot from the wreckage.
SKETCHLEY: We didn't know what was going to happen. The external fuel tanks had exploded, there was ammunition everywhere.
WIAN: The pilot survived with only minor injuries. Weeks later, Sketchley learned there would be another reward for her heroism.
SKETCHLEY: My commander pulled me aside and said congratulations, Sergeant Sketchley, and I'm like, what for? I'm thinking, oh great, what, what did I do? And he said that you were awarded the Soldier's Medal. And my jaw just dropped. I couldn't believe it.
WIAN: Sketchley plans to be a nurse when her military career ends next spring. Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Pat Tillman, one-time rising star was killed in action in Afghanistan yesterday. The 27-year-old Tillman walked away from a multimillion dollar football career to serve his country. Turning down the army's offer to begin as officers, Tillman and his brother Kevin, both enlisted in May of 2002.
Tillman was an Army Ranger, part of the special forces, a member of the 75th Ranger Regiment out of Ft. Benning, Georgia. This was Tillman's second tour of duty. He had also served in Iraq. He was killed in a gun battle while hunting for al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in southeastern Afghanistan, where 80 other Americans have been killed in action.
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DOBBS: ...Carlos Watson, CNN political analyst, both of them in Washington, D.C. tonight, I suppose appropriately enough. Gentlemen, good to have you here. We're looking at polls that right now seem to be favoring the president. To what can we attribute that?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, a lot of people are scratching their heads here in Washington over the strong polls for the president in the past week after the tough news in Iraq and after the confrontation and controversy before the 9/11 commission.
There are probably two big reasons why President Bush has moved up a bit in the last few weeks. One is the economic news is a little better. His approval rating on the economy went up quite a bit in the Gallup poll.
Secondly, and this may see counter-intuitive, the sheer focus on Iraq and terrorism plays toward his strongest hand, the sense that he would be better positioned than John Kerry, at the moment, in the eyes of the electorate, to protect America from threats abroad.
Having said all that, Lou, the key number to watch is the president's own approval rating, which is still right around 51 or 52. If that moves up, he will drift away from Kerry. If it stays there, John Kerry may resurface.
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I would add a couple things to what Ron said. I think some of the Bush campaign strategy has worked out well, too. They spend a record $50 million-plus over the last several weeks, not only defining the president's position, but defining John Kerry's. And I think that's certainly made a difference.
And significantly, in addition to the money that you see on television, they're also spending a lot of money in the so-called ground game. Literally tens of thousands of phone calls, knocking on doors, e-mails. This ground game I think is as important as the air game, if you will, that you're seeing. I think it's helping to bolster his support in some of these battleground states. I think there are a number of factors that are leading us, frankly, to be a little bit surprised, as Ron said, that after a difficult several weeks, a number of the polls are still showing the president up. Granted, only by a couple of points, but still up.
DOBBS: We're some hearing some restiveness of this, as both you know, about Senator Kerry's aggressiveness at this point in the campaign, and admittedly, it is very early in this campaign. How serious an issue is that for Senator Kerry? Carlos?
WATSON: Well, two interesting things. One is, as Ron and I have talked about, John Kerry's the first Catholic nominee in this post-Roe v. Wade area, and so there's an additional amount of electricity around the conversation. But what's interesting, is that today John Kerry was at a pro-choice rally, stood on behalf..
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
BROWNSTEIN: ...conversation, talking about issues far from the central focus in Iraq. And terror, he still hasn't crystallized a single (AUDIO GAP) ...President and George Bush shouldn't and they focus a lot of their time on raising money.
Now they are moving into a more aggressive mode, putting some of that money into television they're going to be airing in the battle ground states, trying to fill in the impression of John Kerry.
There is nervousness about the way this is unfolding, but there's also recognition that this is very early. And in the end I think most people will believe the perceptions of President Bush will be more critical in the race than the assessments of John Kerry. And the real marker here is, does President Bush get that approval rating safely above 50 percent.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, since you've raised it, how important is religion going to be in this election? President Bush has been criticized in some quarters for being too overt in his religiosity, if you will. Senator Kerry has actually run to a point counter to his church. How important will it be?
BROWNSTEIN: If you ask political consultants in both parties, what single piece of information...
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
WATSON: ... strategist in the past has talked about evangelical Christians, several million of whom he believes stayed home last time, and who he hopes to see come to the polls and in addition the major voter registration efforts that the Republicans have, they're hoping to register some 3 million new voters, a large percentage of that effort is based around getting these religious voters that Ron talked about. So this issue is very important from a number of different vantage points.
DOBBS: Carlos, thank you. Ron, thank you. Gentlemen, we appreciate it.
Still ahead here, we'll share some of your thoughts about the issues of the day, and we'll discuss Alan Greenspan's comments and concerns about job growth as well as the rest of the week's news with tonight's news makers. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight's news in brief, North Korea says hundreds of people were killed, thousands more injured in yesterday's massive train explosion near the Chinese border. North Korea has invited foreign aid workers to travel to the disaster scene. Officials suspect the blast was ignited when a rail car carrying explosives touched a live power cable.
Israel's prime minister says he no longer feels bound by his pledge not to harm Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. According to a senior administration official, the Bush White House bluntly warned Ariel Sharon it considers, quote, "a pledge a pledge." Sharon said he told President Bush last week he would not rule out an attack on Arafat.
The White House today said U.S. companies can resume most trade with Libya, easing nearly two decades of economic sanctions. The White House said the move is a reward to Muammar Gaddafi for giving up his weapons of mass destruction.
On Wall Street, stocks up for a third straight day and for the week as well. The Dow up almost 12 points today, the Nasdaq jumping almost 17. The S&P up a fraction.
New York's Attorney General Eliot Spitzer tonight has a new target in his fight against corporate crime. Christine Romans is here to tell us all about that -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, three big insurance brokers confirm they have received subpoenas from Spitzer's office in what looks like the early stages of an investigation into the insurance business. Under the microscope, payments from insurance companies to insurance brokers to allocate business. 12 companies have been subpoenaed. Some say these compensation agreements are common. Spitzer wants to know if they're kickbacks and if they're fully disclosed and if they're conflicts of interest.
Now, Lou, on Wall Street this week, much is being made of strong earnings news and the wide margin by which companies are beating Wall Street expectations. Two ways to look at that. It is, one, earnings are so strong they're beating Wall Street estimates by and large. The other is that Wall Street analysts are more wrong than they've been in years.
DOBBS: Analysts wrong?
ROMANS: Analysts wrong. They really got this quarter wrong. 24 percent earnings growth. When this quarter began, analyst estimates were for just about 10 or 15.
DOBBS: Under the heading of underpromise and overdeliver, it looks like a very strong quarter.
ROMANS: Absolutely. It's been a very strong quarter and analysts, though, over the past year have been under all kinds of new stringent guidelines, so I guess maybe you can't, I don't know, give them too much of a hard time for being conservative.
DOBBS: Why not?
ROMANS: Because they're under the microscope just like these other folks.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much.
A look now at some of your thoughts. Tonight on exporting America, Charlie in Vancouver, Washington.
"Proponents of outsourcing claim products sold in the U.S. under this policy will be cheaper to consumers. Are they going to be free? They had better be because nothing is what an unemployed person has to spend."
Lynn Cowden (ph) of Des Moines, Iowa. "The corporate mantra on outsourcing always deals with the high cost of American labor yet American CEOs make salaries that are often thousands of times higher than what the same position would pay in a foreign owned company. When will American CEOs start reducing their salaries?
James Stricker of Crete, Illinois. "Lou, your constant diatribe against outsourcing astounds me. Outsourcing reduces labor costs allowing companies to sell goods at lower costs or higher profit margins. Outsourcing is helping many people afford products they otherwise could not afford.
Joyce Fowler, Duanesburg, New York. "If we keep sending our high-paying jobs overseas, middle-class America will no longer exist. This practice will eventually break the back of the middle class. Hopefully, our elected leaders will catch on before it's too late.
We love hearing from you. Send us your comments at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Still ahead here, the newsmakers. Three leading journalists from the nation's top business magazines. First, check our website for the complete list of companies that we've confirmed to be exporting America. There are more than 500 and rising. CNN.com/lou. We continue in a moment. Please stay with us.
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DOBBS: The results now of tonight's poll. Only 5 percent of you responded saying you believe Americans have a clear vision of our future; 95 percent say no.
Well, the economy has added a half million new jobs so far this year. That's a brighter picture than it otherwise has been, but Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan this week said he's not yet convinced the job market is really improving. That surprised a lot of people, and it is certainly not welcome news for the more than eight million unemployed Americans. Joining us tonight, tonight's "Newsmakers." Rik Kirkland, the managing editor of "Fortune" magazine, Jim Ellis, chief of correspondents at "BusinessWeek" magazine, Tim Ferguson, editor of "Forbes." Gentlemen, good to have you here. Let's start with the poll results. I expected some negativity, but that's a remarkable response. I mean, do you -- what do you think, do we have a clear vision of our future?
RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": I think people are very confused about it. I think there's so much uncertainly. You know, you go back to the post-9/11 world, the economy is better, it looks better, and yet we aren't creating jobs, so we don't feel so good.
You look overseas, we won the war in Iraq, but the peace is proving a heck of a thing to win. And I think every day you still get terror warnings, I think people -- and you've got worries about the deficit. And long term, I think there's a little bit of a confidence problem.
DOBBS: Jim?
JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": Yeah, I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding now exactly where do we stand in the world. We'd like to think that we're the strongest economic power in the world, but at the same time we've got this real big problem of underemployment. We've got a problem in the Middle East that we can't seem to get our hands around. Less and less, you know, of us being in control. I think that that's the big problems. Americans feel out of control.
DOBBS: Tim?
TIM FERGUSON, "FORBES": I'm not sure that ferment suggests lack of confidence. We're in a changing world, and I would rather be in a country in ferment rather than one in sort of static, in a sense like old Europe.
DOBBS: Right. The idea that...
KIRKLAND: I think the clarity is what's missing. I'm not sure people are lacking in confidence, but I don't think they know exactly where we're going. I think that's what you were asking.
DOBBS: Yes. When you talk about ferment, let's talk about dynamism, as opposed to ferment, because that's what we as Americans have come to expect, really, from our society, from our economy, and perhaps that's also missing here. But does this represent also just sort of the natural byproduct of an election year, in which you have a lot of negativity, obviously from the challenger and the challenger's party and a lot of electioneering from the incumbent? Is that a natural byproduct?
ELLIS: I actually think that it's more there. I think first of all, we've been -- a lot of us have grown up in a time when there have been very defined sort of rights and wrongs, you know, our system against communism. There was the U.S. against Russia. All of a sudden now we don't quite know who our enemies are, though they seem to be a lot more than we thought there would be. We don't quite know what our future will be. A lot of people are worried now that our kids won't have a life we ever had.
DOBBS: I would just argue with you, we know very precisely who our enemies are. It has been the choice of this administration, for whatever reason, to ignore the names of those enemies, and that is precisely radical Islamic terrorism. I mean, it's straightforward to me. Rik?
KIRKLAND: I also think there's a nervousness, again, there is this sort of uncertainty that is very vague. I mean, the whole focus on outsourcing that you've spent a lot of energy covering, I mean, people -- on the one hand, the news isn't bad. Dynamism is good. The economy, you know, its ability to adapt is something that we're very proud of. And yet we look at a world that's globalizing, competitors coming in from China and India, much larger populations, and people suddenly think, has it changed somehow? So I just think there is a -- I don't think anyone has a lot of answers that they're clear about here.
DOBBS: Let's talk about outsourcing. We've had the invent of something call insourcing now. The administration, its surrogates and supporters have latched on to something called insourcing, which I used to call foreign direct investment, but they seem to see that as a counterpoint to the export of cheap -- of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. Tim, what in the world is it going to take to get an honest debate in this country about anything? Whether it be trade, whether it be the quality of labor, opportunity in this country? Even the Fed chairman, Alan Greenspan, he was speaking as a humanist, not an economist, talking about the slow rate of job creation, about the fact that we are seeing huge numbers still on -- applying for unemployment benefits?
FERGUSON: I thought he was also talking about the likelihood of interest rates increases in the future...
DOBBS: Oh, absolutely (ph).
FERGUSON: ... stemming from the very strength of the economy. So I think there is, for all the pessimism and hand-wringing, there's a little grounds for optimism, at least in ...
DOBBS: Well, I'm absolutely an optimist, because I think corporate America has the strength, the resolve and resiliency to reform itself and to apply to a higher standard of concern for the communities and the stakeholders who make them possible. Jim, your thoughts?
ELLIS: Just I wish that we could all benefit in the way that we see numbers coming out now on corporate earnings. Corporate earnings are extremely strong right now.
DOBBS: Right.
ELLIS: Twenty-four percent. I mean, it's very, very good if you are a shareholder. If you are a manager right now and your bonus plan is built on these earnings...
DOBBS: If you're a CEO.
ELLIS: Right, but I still think that we're seeing a lot of weakness, not just in the employment numbers, but also in underemployment. That worries me more than anything else. A lot of people who would like -- who are prepared to have a better job cannot find better jobs. That's the real big issue. And that's the thing when the election rolls around, that's what people are going to be thinking about.
KIRKLAND: I also think that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) maybe an indictment of both candidates right now, and that I think people aren't hearing what that clear, positive vision is from either one. They feel like they're shooting at each other, he's a loser, his policies will mess it up, he's doing it all wrong, and they're not really getting a sense of, well, where are you going to take us?
DOBBS: That's a great point. Tim, do you agree with that? When you have 95 percent of respondents to a poll, even as ad hoc as this one, I mean, it really is a suggestion that's something is wrong in both quarters of the political parties, as there tends to be.
FERGUSON: There's a lot of ambivalence. And I suspect realistic. I'm not sure that the direction of policy making will change that much depending on who wins the election.
DOBBS: Why in the world not? When you look over the country's history, I mean, this is a proud, strong nation with a society of people who have created so much. Why in the world would we not be entitled to clear leadership, a clear vision of our future?
FERGUSON: Well, perhaps the choices are not as easy or diametrically opposed as we might want to have in a vivid kind of debate.
DOBBS: Well, I want vividity.
KIRKLAND: Bring it on, vividity. Bring on the...
DOBBS: Vividity. You know, as you suggested, I want to go back just very quickly. We got just about a minute. Alan Greenspan absolutely shocked me this week, and as you suggested, but he was talking with great concern about the fact that labor has not participated in this recovery. I never heard the Fed chairman talk about this. You got 15 seconds worth of thoughts on that?
KIRKLAND: Well, I mean, it's a very sensitive thing to say. Even when you're a Fed chairman, you know, it's nice to show humanity and empathy. And I think he's also addressing the point that -- setting up the thought that they will. He thinks that they will. He thinks that the profit margins will eventually flow to labor.
DOBBS: Let's have that as long as we have also vividity.
KIRKLAND: Vividity. DOBBS: Right along with...
KIRKLAND: My new slogan.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, gentlemen. That's our broadcast for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Please join us Monday. Stanford University professor Larry Diamond. He says the odds of democracy succeeding in Iraq are long indeed. He's our guest. And "America Works." All week long. Our feature series on the hard-working men and women in this country who make it all work. For all of us here, have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" up next.
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