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American Morning
Discussion with Senator Joseph Lieberman; Discussion with Swedish Ambassador to North Korea About Train Explosion
Aired April 23, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Marines in Fallujah trying to break the insurgents sooner rather than later. Is an assault coming on the Sunni Triangle?
Some of the most gripping images of war that the Pentagon did not want most Americans to see.
And the Florida school accused of sending students out to work on the highway and then keeping the money they earned. That spells trouble.
Ahead this hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Welcome, everybody.
Other stories that we're following this morning, beer and the South Beach diet. Budweiser is taking the inventor of the diet to task, saying he's got his science all wrong when it comes to whether dieters should avoid a cold one now and then. We'll explain that controversy just ahead.
HEMMER: Most appropriate on a Friday, too.
Also today, very disturbing findings in a study that examined the health impact on people who spend a lot of time driving their cars. Could the ride cause a heart attack? We'll get to the link in a few minutes here.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Cafferty, good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
Coming up in the Cafferty File, we did a story yesterday about workers in the city of Chicago being fired for making calls to sex and psychic hotlines. And don't you know we heard from some flak in the mayor's office who took issue with our report?
So we're going to revisit that story in the Cafferty File, and I hope she's watching.
Also, some things...
O'BRIEN: She'll be soon sorry she called in to weigh in, huh?
CAFFERTY: Well, I don't know. I guess they've got all the other problems in Chicago under control. They've got to worry about what I do on the Cafferty File.
In Germany, they're going to make it permissible to do the watchamacallit in the army barracks. Well, you know what I'm -- listen, don't be hiding your hands. You know damn well what I'm talking about. Look at you.
HEMMER: I couldn't figure (UNINTELLIGIBLE) out.
Thank you, Jack -- Soledad, you're welcome to go ahead and take the reigns here.
O'BRIEN: I don't know where to go with that. So, Bill, how about the top stories?
HEMMER: Top U.S. officials reiterating their concerns about the growing terror threat here in the U.S. The attorney general, John Ashcroft, saying terrorists have been known to strike symbolic targets and could possibly try and strike before the election in November. The U.S. hosts a number of high profile events in the upcoming months, including both political conventions -- one in Boston, one here in New York. Officials say concerns are based on speculation and not specific intelligence.
In U.S. politics, President Bush wrapping up two days of Earth Day observances in Florida. The president and his brother, Governor Jeb Bush, highlighting efforts to try and protect America's wetlands. Meanwhile, Democratic rival John Kerry focusing on women's rights. He'll talk today at a rally to be held in Washington, D.C.
A health note this morning, the latest news in the battle of the bulge comes from British researchers who say school kids should just say no to soda. A study on the Web site of a British medical journal reporting a one year "Ditch The Fizz" campaign in the U.K. led to a drop in the number of elementary school students who were overweight.
Talk about your cat on a hot tin roof. This bobcat mom chose a rather precarious perch to give birth -- in the rafters of an Arizona home under construction. She and her kittens were safely corralled and taken to a wildlife sanctuary. All those OK, out of Arizona.
8:03 now here in New York.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: A coalition convoy attacked today in the Iraqi city of Karbala. A coalition soldier injured in the blast and evacuated to a military hospital. Coalition forces move in and battled militant Shiite forces there. U.S. military commanders are warning insurgents in Fallujah that they are running out of time to avoid an invasion. American negotiators want rebel forces to turn over their heavy weapons in exchange for amnesty. But a Marine commander says so far they've only handed over junk.
In Washington, Bush administration officials are offering some details describing that interim Iraqi authority with little control over armed forces and no power to enact laws. But still no details exactly on who's going to be accepting power after June 30.
Iraq, in fact, has been the subject of sometimes contentious hearings this week on Capitol Hill.
Senator Joe Lieberman joins us this morning from Washington, D.C. with his assessment of the U.S. strategy in Iraq.
Nice to see you, sir.
Good morning.
Thanks for being with us.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:
LIEBERMAN: You, too, Soledad.
Thank you.
Good to be with you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much.
Let's start with the details. There's a little more detail we're getting from the U.N. envoy, Brahimi, about his plan for the new government. It includes, as you well know, president, two vice presidents, a prime minister, as well. But not a lot of detail following that. Also, we're learning that there are limits on the authority and sovereignty, as well.
What do you make of this plan?
LIEBERMAN: The plan is a real step forward and Mr. Brahimi is doing a great service to the world and the cause of stability and ultimately democracy in Iraq. Let's remember, there may now erupt a controversy in the media and in the political community about the limits on authority being given to the Iraqis. But I think that's what some leading Iraqis that we're working with, like Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, want. And remember that the government that will take over for Iraq on July 1 will not be elected. So they ought not to have wide powers. They ought to begin to assume sovereignty and lead to a process in which there will be elections.
Mr. Brahimi is doing critically important work, doing it well. The administration is encouraging and embracing him and I think that's very, very constructive.
O'BRIEN: But they also have a limited control over the armed forces and while you call it a step forward, there are certainly objections. Some leaders in European nations are saying that the limitations essentially handcuff this new government. Do you disagree with that?
LIEBERMAN: Well, this is one of the most difficult questions because, look, stability is a precondition to democracy and opportunity for the Iraqi people so they don't fall under a different kind of dictator than the one we just got rid of there. But the fact is that our troops are the main source of stability and we have to continue to exercise -- an American general has to continue to exercise absolute, the ultimate authority over our troops.
I think we can work out an arrangement with this new Iraqi government which is consultative but still -- and cooperative, but still gives an American general the final call on how American troops are being used in the interests of the new Iraqi government.
O'BRIEN: We've been talking about more detail coming out. But actually the details, I think it's fair to say, are few and far between. We're 10 weeks away. We still don't know exactly specifically who the power will be handed over to, who's going to be governing and how that person or persons will be picked.
So do you think there's actually time to meet this deadline?
LIEBERMAN: There is time to meet the deadline. Mr. Brahimi has done excellent work in Algeria. He can do it here, as well. The critical thing is to transfer sovereignty to the Iraqis on July 1, because it's the most graphic way we can say to them in action what we've been saying in words -- we came into Iraq to liberate you, not to occupy you. And what happens on July 1, according to the Brahimi plan, is the first step toward you holding your own elections and controlling your own destiny. And we want to help you do that.
So, no, the 10 weeks is a long time in politics generally and under the leadership of a very skilled diplomat, like Lakhdar Brahimi.
O'BRIEN: You're giving a speech on Monday, I believe, before the Brookings Institution. And you talk about -- the way they're promoting your speech is that you're going to talk about some of your solutions for winning the war in Iraq.
Tell me your solution for overcoming the spate of terror that we have seen in this past month.
LIEBERMAN: Well, there is no -- this requires both the sword and the plowshare. I mean this requires both the use of American power -- there's no compromising with terrorists. If you look at the stand-off that you just reported, Soledad, around Fallujah, for instance, where, as the Marine commander has said, the terrorists, as part of these negotiations, are basically turning over junk, I mean this is a city in which four Americans were killed, burned and hung in humiliation. And we're coming close to a point where we have to use power with these people and clean out that -- those terrorists from those cities.
But we've also got to move forward and give them opportunities to live a better life. I want to give you a little optimistic news from Iraq, because we tend not to hear it. Michael O'Hanlon at the Brookings Institute, where I'm speaking on Monday, compiles an Iraq economic index and he shows that over the last few months, there's been a 25 to 50 percent improvement in all of this indicators.
And what does that mean? The availability of water and electricity, cooking oil, gasoline, what makes life better and what creates stability to improve the future of Iraq. We can win this.
I'm going to talk Monday about the importance of securing peace here on the home front to win the war on the battlefront. More details on Monday.
O'BRIEN: All right, Senator Joseph Lieberman joining us this morning.
Nice to see you, sir, as always.
Thanks.
LIEBERMAN: You, too.
Have a good day.
O'BRIEN: Thank you.
Likewise. And a nice weekend.
LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Bill?
HEMMER: About 10 past the hour now.
The release of hundreds of official photographs of flag-draped coffins containing U.S. war dead from Iraq once again sparking debate. At issue, the Pentagon's policy of trying to prohibit media coverage of the return of those remains.
And at the Pentagon for us today, here's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are pictures the Pentagon didn't want you to see, row on row of flag draped coffins on their final voyage home from Iraq.
The official Air Force photographs were taken for historical purposes and released to an anti-government secrecy Web site, the memoryhole.org under the Freedom of Information Act.
That release is now under review because it conflicts with official Pentagon policy banning news media coverage of the return of military remains. To some that policy seems misguided.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The idea that they are essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong. MCINTYRE: Since just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War with a few rare exceptions, the Pentagon has banned cameras at Dover Air Force Base or anyplace en route. Grave site coverage is permitted if the family agrees.
The Pentagon insists it's not trying to cover up the war's human cost but simply protecting the privacy of families and it has the support of the National Military Family Association.
In a statement, the organization says there is no apparent consensus among families about the policy and it believes the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families.
This picture published on the front page of The Seattle Times last Sunday showing more than 20 flag-draped coffins resulted in a contract worker losing her job. After e-mailing the picture, taken earlier this month, to a friend the woman was fired along with her husband for what the contractor says was a violation of government and company regulations.
For the newspaper, publishing the picture was an easy call.
DAVID BOARDMAN, MANAGING EDITOR, "THE SEATTLE TIMES": The most amazing thing about it really is that everybody seems to be moved by it. What they see in it is largely a function of what they bring to it, so that some people see it as a strong anti-war statement. Other people see it very much as a picture that honors the soldiers who are over there.
BROWN (on camera): The Pentagon says they have nothing to apologize in trying to craft guidelines that balance the needs of the news media against the sensitivities of the families. And an official says there are no plans to review the policy.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: More than 700 Americans have died during the Iraq war thus far, including more than 100 already in this month.
Jack has much more on this in a few moments here -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: More information is beginning to emerge from one of the most secretive nations. We're going to talk this morning with Paul Beijer. He is the Swedish ambassador to North Korea. He joins us by phone in Pyongyang.
Mr. Beijer, thank you so much for us, Ambassador Beijer, for joining us this morning.
And, of course, as you well know, the numbers have been changing overnight.
So why don't we start with what you are hearing officially from the North Korean government about how many people have perished in this terrible accident.
PAUL BEIJER, SWEDISH AMBASSADOR TO NORTH KOREA: Thank you.
We were officially informed this afternoon at 4:00 p.m. Pyongyang time about the accident. And it was said at that time that they had recovered around 100 bodies and over 1,000 injured. They emphasized that the work to sift through the rubble was still continuing, so the numbers were expected to rise.
O'BRIEN: Have they clarified for you what exactly happened here? Was it one train or two trains colliding? BEIJER: Yes, they have. It was not two trains colliding, but work in a freight yard in this little town. They were shifting a couple of freight cars full of explosives, high explosives. And these freight cars came into contact with a live power cable. And the resulting sparks ignited the explosives.
O'BRIEN: Some of the reports that we have seen about additional damage, at one point we read maybe close to 2,000 homes destroyed.
Have you heard any strong numbers on the collateral damage here? BEIJER: Yes. The pressure wave generated by the explosion is said to have collapsed somewhere between 1,800 and 2,000 buildings. Now, that's apartment blocks, schools, institutions of various kinds. This was a built up area.
O'BRIEN: We know that this blast happened just about nine hours after the leader of North Korea, Kim Jong Il, passed through that station.
Is there any indication at this time that there was some kind of foul play? Or is it just a horrible accident? BEIJER: All indications are that it was simply an accident, very bad one, indeed.
O'BRIEN: As you well know, North Korea, a country where it is difficult to get lots of information and communication back and forth. There have been some offers of help from other nations.
Has the government talked about what they are going to accept or if they'll accept any aid from any other nations? BEIJER: They have very explicitly asked for support from the international community in tackling this disaster. They are arranging a trip to the site of the accident tomorrow morning for members of the diplomatic corps in Pyongyang, including myself, and representatives from the international aid organizations here.
We'll be traveling up to the site, about four and a half hours by car. We'll be taking with us emergency sup[plies that are stockpiled here in Pyongyang. And the main purpose of that trip is to assess the damage and the (AUDIO GAP)...
O'BRIEN: Maybe we'll have an opportunity to talk to you after you've had a chance to see the site with your own eyes.
Ambassador Paul Beijer, the Swedish ambassador to North Korea, talking by phone with us this morning. Ambassador, thank you so much for your time.
Appreciate it -- Bill.
HEMMER: The last hour with Jaime FlorCruz, who was in China just across the border from North Korea, they're reporting the hospitals there in very dire straits already. So if you have a number of injured people, chances are they're not going to get the help they need at this point.
O'BRIEN: It's clearly overwhelming any kind of a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
HEMMER: The story has a true cold war feel, does it not? I mean just the amount of...
O'BRIEN: Yes, the lack of information coming out.
HEMMER: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: No question.
HEMMER: And the disparity between the numbers yesterday and now what we're learning today. I mean very fortunately that number has gone down significantly.
O'BRIEN: It was 3,000 yesterday at one point.
HEMMER: Yes, and even this, a hundred bodies recovered so far. But he's describing 200 buildings collapsed. That is significant, substantial damage. And to have numbers that low, perhaps there's a silver lining, actually, in what we're getting on North Korea today.
O'BRIEN: I think he said 2,000, 2,000 buildings collapsed.
HEMMER: It's extraordinary. So, we'll get much more when we can on that. Tough to get, but we'll work it for you.
In a moment here, renewed worries about a possible terror attack before the election in November. We'll talk live with a terrorism expert in a few moments about that story today.
O'BRIEN: Also, a legal move could clear the way for trial in the case of suspected 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui. We've got details on that just ahead as AMERICAN MORNING continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: A charter school in Pensacola, Florida charged with fraud for allegedly hiring high school students on road crews and then keeping some of the money the students made. A state criminal investigation finding at risk students spent just an hour in the classroom. This at the Escambia Charter School. The rest of the day they were doing road work. Prosecutors say the students received classroom credit so that the school could get state education grants.
Russell Edgar is Florida's assistant state attorney, with us from Pensacola to talk about this case.
Good morning to you and thanks for your time here.
RUSSELL EDGAR, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Good morning.
HEMMER: Your investigation went for several months.
What did you find and what tipped you off on this?
EDGAR: Well, we had a complaint by a former teacher that things were not right at the school. And one of the matters brought to our attention was that children were being taken from the school and worked off campus several days a week for up to 15 weeks or more at a time, yet they were receiving school credit. And their attendance records were being sent to the district, indicating they were in class, receiving instruction. Their report cards were showing they were making good graduates and completing their courses, which qualified them for state education funds.
And I reviewed the case and it struck me as rather peculiar that the charter school was taking money out of one pocket, from the Department of Transportation, taxpayer funds, taking money out of the other pocket from the Department of Education, taxpayers' funds, and profiting from that by student labor.
HEMMER: So essentially, then, if I have my facts straight on this, the school was getting 16 bucks an hour for these kids to do the work. They were paying the kids 10 bucks an hour to do it and the school was keeping the other $6 for themselves, is that right?
EDGAR: After some expenses, yes. That is correct.
HEMMER: Yes.
Where was that money going, then, that the school kept?
EDGAR: Into the general fund for the school to use for their purposes. This is a school that is basically chartered through the district that receives state funds to educate the children, but is allowed to allocate those funds in the manners they think are appropriate.
HEMMER: So...
EDGAR: They're not, however, allowed to do what they will with the curriculum necessarily.
HEMMER: So you're alleging, then, that they were reaching one hand into the right pocket and one hand into the left pocket and keeping most of it, correct?
EDGAR: That's right.
HEMMER: All right, now the school is saying now this is not true, it never happened. They're saying perhaps we owe about 19 grand back. How do you respond to that? Is that the fact?
EDGAR: Nineteen or more a year for several years. It happens that the state did an audit for one year and came up with a number that's close to 19. But that's an incomplete and misleading statement. There are several years that we investigated and this has been going on for quite some time. In essence, we have alleged that the school is being paid to teach the children and at the same time the school is being paid to remove them from the school during classroom times for weeks on end.
HEMMER: You keep us posted, OK?
Russell Edgar down there in Pensacola, Florida.
EDGAR: Thank you.
HEMMER: Nice to see you on this Friday morning -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: An unbelievable story, isn't it?
HEMMER: Um-hmm.
O'BRIEN: Wow.
Well, still to come this morning, Washington leaders, from the president on down, voice increasing alarm about a terror attack on U.S. soil. A look at that is just ahead.
And then some news that dieters can drink to. Is the South Beach diet doctor all wrong? A look at that, as AMERICAN MORNING continues.
We're back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Back to Jack, the Question of the Day.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
An issue that's been simmering since the war in Iraq began, now it's coming to a full boil and almost overnight. Pictures of caskets of American soldiers being returned from Iraq -- 361 photos from Dover Air Force Base were released under the Freedom of Information Act. The Defense Department has forbidden coverage of returning remains of American soldiers.
The question is this -- should the Pentagon be able to ban pictures of coffins of American military personnel?
Janet in Spring Lake, Michigan: "Of course, Americans should see these pictures. However, our ghoulish media will stop at nothing. Remember Diana? The next thing we would have is a frenzy of photos and people selling ball park franks and balloons at each arrival at Dover. The Pentagon is right." Pamela in Hamburg, Michigan: "These soldiers are a very important part of the story. To not honor them upon arrival is disgraceful. They paid the ultimate price for this country, for the people of Iraq, and their story, good or bad, should be told.
Harvey in New Haven, Connecticut: "They should be able to if the families of the soldiers want it to be so. Freedom of the press, unfortunately, needs to be regulated in these times of family mourning."
And January in Rome, Georgia: "I received the flag-draped coffin with my son in it last week. Plenty of pictures have been taken and aired nationwide. I have no problem with this. To me it's a tribute to our fallen soldiers, that people do care. Our motto has become remember the fallen because freedom is not free."
Obviously a very emotional issue and probably not one that's going to go away real fast.
HEMMER: Our best to Jan in Rome, Georgia.
CAFFERTY: Absolutely. And, you know, the Pentagon talks about, you know, respect for the grieving families. A note to the Pentagon -- we all grieve, every single one of us, when one of these caskets comes back. We all grieve. It's not just the families.
HEMMER: That's right.
O'BRIEN: Wow, that's a tough e-mail. Wow.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, with all the non-specific warnings about a terrorist attack coming from Washington, what's being done to stop an attack? A look at that's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 23, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Marines in Fallujah trying to break the insurgents sooner rather than later. Is an assault coming on the Sunni Triangle?
Some of the most gripping images of war that the Pentagon did not want most Americans to see.
And the Florida school accused of sending students out to work on the highway and then keeping the money they earned. That spells trouble.
Ahead this hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Welcome, everybody.
Other stories that we're following this morning, beer and the South Beach diet. Budweiser is taking the inventor of the diet to task, saying he's got his science all wrong when it comes to whether dieters should avoid a cold one now and then. We'll explain that controversy just ahead.
HEMMER: Most appropriate on a Friday, too.
Also today, very disturbing findings in a study that examined the health impact on people who spend a lot of time driving their cars. Could the ride cause a heart attack? We'll get to the link in a few minutes here.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Cafferty, good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.
Coming up in the Cafferty File, we did a story yesterday about workers in the city of Chicago being fired for making calls to sex and psychic hotlines. And don't you know we heard from some flak in the mayor's office who took issue with our report?
So we're going to revisit that story in the Cafferty File, and I hope she's watching.
Also, some things...
O'BRIEN: She'll be soon sorry she called in to weigh in, huh?
CAFFERTY: Well, I don't know. I guess they've got all the other problems in Chicago under control. They've got to worry about what I do on the Cafferty File.
In Germany, they're going to make it permissible to do the watchamacallit in the army barracks. Well, you know what I'm -- listen, don't be hiding your hands. You know damn well what I'm talking about. Look at you.
HEMMER: I couldn't figure (UNINTELLIGIBLE) out.
Thank you, Jack -- Soledad, you're welcome to go ahead and take the reigns here.
O'BRIEN: I don't know where to go with that. So, Bill, how about the top stories?
HEMMER: Top U.S. officials reiterating their concerns about the growing terror threat here in the U.S. The attorney general, John Ashcroft, saying terrorists have been known to strike symbolic targets and could possibly try and strike before the election in November. The U.S. hosts a number of high profile events in the upcoming months, including both political conventions -- one in Boston, one here in New York. Officials say concerns are based on speculation and not specific intelligence.
In U.S. politics, President Bush wrapping up two days of Earth Day observances in Florida. The president and his brother, Governor Jeb Bush, highlighting efforts to try and protect America's wetlands. Meanwhile, Democratic rival John Kerry focusing on women's rights. He'll talk today at a rally to be held in Washington, D.C.
A health note this morning, the latest news in the battle of the bulge comes from British researchers who say school kids should just say no to soda. A study on the Web site of a British medical journal reporting a one year "Ditch The Fizz" campaign in the U.K. led to a drop in the number of elementary school students who were overweight.
Talk about your cat on a hot tin roof. This bobcat mom chose a rather precarious perch to give birth -- in the rafters of an Arizona home under construction. She and her kittens were safely corralled and taken to a wildlife sanctuary. All those OK, out of Arizona.
8:03 now here in New York.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: A coalition convoy attacked today in the Iraqi city of Karbala. A coalition soldier injured in the blast and evacuated to a military hospital. Coalition forces move in and battled militant Shiite forces there. U.S. military commanders are warning insurgents in Fallujah that they are running out of time to avoid an invasion. American negotiators want rebel forces to turn over their heavy weapons in exchange for amnesty. But a Marine commander says so far they've only handed over junk.
In Washington, Bush administration officials are offering some details describing that interim Iraqi authority with little control over armed forces and no power to enact laws. But still no details exactly on who's going to be accepting power after June 30.
Iraq, in fact, has been the subject of sometimes contentious hearings this week on Capitol Hill.
Senator Joe Lieberman joins us this morning from Washington, D.C. with his assessment of the U.S. strategy in Iraq.
Nice to see you, sir.
Good morning.
Thanks for being with us.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:
LIEBERMAN: You, too, Soledad.
Thank you.
Good to be with you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much.
Let's start with the details. There's a little more detail we're getting from the U.N. envoy, Brahimi, about his plan for the new government. It includes, as you well know, president, two vice presidents, a prime minister, as well. But not a lot of detail following that. Also, we're learning that there are limits on the authority and sovereignty, as well.
What do you make of this plan?
LIEBERMAN: The plan is a real step forward and Mr. Brahimi is doing a great service to the world and the cause of stability and ultimately democracy in Iraq. Let's remember, there may now erupt a controversy in the media and in the political community about the limits on authority being given to the Iraqis. But I think that's what some leading Iraqis that we're working with, like Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, want. And remember that the government that will take over for Iraq on July 1 will not be elected. So they ought not to have wide powers. They ought to begin to assume sovereignty and lead to a process in which there will be elections.
Mr. Brahimi is doing critically important work, doing it well. The administration is encouraging and embracing him and I think that's very, very constructive.
O'BRIEN: But they also have a limited control over the armed forces and while you call it a step forward, there are certainly objections. Some leaders in European nations are saying that the limitations essentially handcuff this new government. Do you disagree with that?
LIEBERMAN: Well, this is one of the most difficult questions because, look, stability is a precondition to democracy and opportunity for the Iraqi people so they don't fall under a different kind of dictator than the one we just got rid of there. But the fact is that our troops are the main source of stability and we have to continue to exercise -- an American general has to continue to exercise absolute, the ultimate authority over our troops.
I think we can work out an arrangement with this new Iraqi government which is consultative but still -- and cooperative, but still gives an American general the final call on how American troops are being used in the interests of the new Iraqi government.
O'BRIEN: We've been talking about more detail coming out. But actually the details, I think it's fair to say, are few and far between. We're 10 weeks away. We still don't know exactly specifically who the power will be handed over to, who's going to be governing and how that person or persons will be picked.
So do you think there's actually time to meet this deadline?
LIEBERMAN: There is time to meet the deadline. Mr. Brahimi has done excellent work in Algeria. He can do it here, as well. The critical thing is to transfer sovereignty to the Iraqis on July 1, because it's the most graphic way we can say to them in action what we've been saying in words -- we came into Iraq to liberate you, not to occupy you. And what happens on July 1, according to the Brahimi plan, is the first step toward you holding your own elections and controlling your own destiny. And we want to help you do that.
So, no, the 10 weeks is a long time in politics generally and under the leadership of a very skilled diplomat, like Lakhdar Brahimi.
O'BRIEN: You're giving a speech on Monday, I believe, before the Brookings Institution. And you talk about -- the way they're promoting your speech is that you're going to talk about some of your solutions for winning the war in Iraq.
Tell me your solution for overcoming the spate of terror that we have seen in this past month.
LIEBERMAN: Well, there is no -- this requires both the sword and the plowshare. I mean this requires both the use of American power -- there's no compromising with terrorists. If you look at the stand-off that you just reported, Soledad, around Fallujah, for instance, where, as the Marine commander has said, the terrorists, as part of these negotiations, are basically turning over junk, I mean this is a city in which four Americans were killed, burned and hung in humiliation. And we're coming close to a point where we have to use power with these people and clean out that -- those terrorists from those cities.
But we've also got to move forward and give them opportunities to live a better life. I want to give you a little optimistic news from Iraq, because we tend not to hear it. Michael O'Hanlon at the Brookings Institute, where I'm speaking on Monday, compiles an Iraq economic index and he shows that over the last few months, there's been a 25 to 50 percent improvement in all of this indicators.
And what does that mean? The availability of water and electricity, cooking oil, gasoline, what makes life better and what creates stability to improve the future of Iraq. We can win this.
I'm going to talk Monday about the importance of securing peace here on the home front to win the war on the battlefront. More details on Monday.
O'BRIEN: All right, Senator Joseph Lieberman joining us this morning.
Nice to see you, sir, as always.
Thanks.
LIEBERMAN: You, too.
Have a good day.
O'BRIEN: Thank you.
Likewise. And a nice weekend.
LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Bill?
HEMMER: About 10 past the hour now.
The release of hundreds of official photographs of flag-draped coffins containing U.S. war dead from Iraq once again sparking debate. At issue, the Pentagon's policy of trying to prohibit media coverage of the return of those remains.
And at the Pentagon for us today, here's Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are pictures the Pentagon didn't want you to see, row on row of flag draped coffins on their final voyage home from Iraq.
The official Air Force photographs were taken for historical purposes and released to an anti-government secrecy Web site, the memoryhole.org under the Freedom of Information Act.
That release is now under review because it conflicts with official Pentagon policy banning news media coverage of the return of military remains. To some that policy seems misguided.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The idea that they are essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong. MCINTYRE: Since just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War with a few rare exceptions, the Pentagon has banned cameras at Dover Air Force Base or anyplace en route. Grave site coverage is permitted if the family agrees.
The Pentagon insists it's not trying to cover up the war's human cost but simply protecting the privacy of families and it has the support of the National Military Family Association.
In a statement, the organization says there is no apparent consensus among families about the policy and it believes the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families.
This picture published on the front page of The Seattle Times last Sunday showing more than 20 flag-draped coffins resulted in a contract worker losing her job. After e-mailing the picture, taken earlier this month, to a friend the woman was fired along with her husband for what the contractor says was a violation of government and company regulations.
For the newspaper, publishing the picture was an easy call.
DAVID BOARDMAN, MANAGING EDITOR, "THE SEATTLE TIMES": The most amazing thing about it really is that everybody seems to be moved by it. What they see in it is largely a function of what they bring to it, so that some people see it as a strong anti-war statement. Other people see it very much as a picture that honors the soldiers who are over there.
BROWN (on camera): The Pentagon says they have nothing to apologize in trying to craft guidelines that balance the needs of the news media against the sensitivities of the families. And an official says there are no plans to review the policy.
Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: More than 700 Americans have died during the Iraq war thus far, including more than 100 already in this month.
Jack has much more on this in a few moments here -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: More information is beginning to emerge from one of the most secretive nations. We're going to talk this morning with Paul Beijer. He is the Swedish ambassador to North Korea. He joins us by phone in Pyongyang.
Mr. Beijer, thank you so much for us, Ambassador Beijer, for joining us this morning.
And, of course, as you well know, the numbers have been changing overnight.
So why don't we start with what you are hearing officially from the North Korean government about how many people have perished in this terrible accident.
PAUL BEIJER, SWEDISH AMBASSADOR TO NORTH KOREA: Thank you.
We were officially informed this afternoon at 4:00 p.m. Pyongyang time about the accident. And it was said at that time that they had recovered around 100 bodies and over 1,000 injured. They emphasized that the work to sift through the rubble was still continuing, so the numbers were expected to rise.
O'BRIEN: Have they clarified for you what exactly happened here? Was it one train or two trains colliding? BEIJER: Yes, they have. It was not two trains colliding, but work in a freight yard in this little town. They were shifting a couple of freight cars full of explosives, high explosives. And these freight cars came into contact with a live power cable. And the resulting sparks ignited the explosives.
O'BRIEN: Some of the reports that we have seen about additional damage, at one point we read maybe close to 2,000 homes destroyed.
Have you heard any strong numbers on the collateral damage here? BEIJER: Yes. The pressure wave generated by the explosion is said to have collapsed somewhere between 1,800 and 2,000 buildings. Now, that's apartment blocks, schools, institutions of various kinds. This was a built up area.
O'BRIEN: We know that this blast happened just about nine hours after the leader of North Korea, Kim Jong Il, passed through that station.
Is there any indication at this time that there was some kind of foul play? Or is it just a horrible accident? BEIJER: All indications are that it was simply an accident, very bad one, indeed.
O'BRIEN: As you well know, North Korea, a country where it is difficult to get lots of information and communication back and forth. There have been some offers of help from other nations.
Has the government talked about what they are going to accept or if they'll accept any aid from any other nations? BEIJER: They have very explicitly asked for support from the international community in tackling this disaster. They are arranging a trip to the site of the accident tomorrow morning for members of the diplomatic corps in Pyongyang, including myself, and representatives from the international aid organizations here.
We'll be traveling up to the site, about four and a half hours by car. We'll be taking with us emergency sup[plies that are stockpiled here in Pyongyang. And the main purpose of that trip is to assess the damage and the (AUDIO GAP)...
O'BRIEN: Maybe we'll have an opportunity to talk to you after you've had a chance to see the site with your own eyes.
Ambassador Paul Beijer, the Swedish ambassador to North Korea, talking by phone with us this morning. Ambassador, thank you so much for your time.
Appreciate it -- Bill.
HEMMER: The last hour with Jaime FlorCruz, who was in China just across the border from North Korea, they're reporting the hospitals there in very dire straits already. So if you have a number of injured people, chances are they're not going to get the help they need at this point.
O'BRIEN: It's clearly overwhelming any kind of a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
HEMMER: The story has a true cold war feel, does it not? I mean just the amount of...
O'BRIEN: Yes, the lack of information coming out.
HEMMER: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: No question.
HEMMER: And the disparity between the numbers yesterday and now what we're learning today. I mean very fortunately that number has gone down significantly.
O'BRIEN: It was 3,000 yesterday at one point.
HEMMER: Yes, and even this, a hundred bodies recovered so far. But he's describing 200 buildings collapsed. That is significant, substantial damage. And to have numbers that low, perhaps there's a silver lining, actually, in what we're getting on North Korea today.
O'BRIEN: I think he said 2,000, 2,000 buildings collapsed.
HEMMER: It's extraordinary. So, we'll get much more when we can on that. Tough to get, but we'll work it for you.
In a moment here, renewed worries about a possible terror attack before the election in November. We'll talk live with a terrorism expert in a few moments about that story today.
O'BRIEN: Also, a legal move could clear the way for trial in the case of suspected 9/11 conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui. We've got details on that just ahead as AMERICAN MORNING continues.
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HEMMER: A charter school in Pensacola, Florida charged with fraud for allegedly hiring high school students on road crews and then keeping some of the money the students made. A state criminal investigation finding at risk students spent just an hour in the classroom. This at the Escambia Charter School. The rest of the day they were doing road work. Prosecutors say the students received classroom credit so that the school could get state education grants.
Russell Edgar is Florida's assistant state attorney, with us from Pensacola to talk about this case.
Good morning to you and thanks for your time here.
RUSSELL EDGAR, FLORIDA ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY: Good morning.
HEMMER: Your investigation went for several months.
What did you find and what tipped you off on this?
EDGAR: Well, we had a complaint by a former teacher that things were not right at the school. And one of the matters brought to our attention was that children were being taken from the school and worked off campus several days a week for up to 15 weeks or more at a time, yet they were receiving school credit. And their attendance records were being sent to the district, indicating they were in class, receiving instruction. Their report cards were showing they were making good graduates and completing their courses, which qualified them for state education funds.
And I reviewed the case and it struck me as rather peculiar that the charter school was taking money out of one pocket, from the Department of Transportation, taxpayer funds, taking money out of the other pocket from the Department of Education, taxpayers' funds, and profiting from that by student labor.
HEMMER: So essentially, then, if I have my facts straight on this, the school was getting 16 bucks an hour for these kids to do the work. They were paying the kids 10 bucks an hour to do it and the school was keeping the other $6 for themselves, is that right?
EDGAR: After some expenses, yes. That is correct.
HEMMER: Yes.
Where was that money going, then, that the school kept?
EDGAR: Into the general fund for the school to use for their purposes. This is a school that is basically chartered through the district that receives state funds to educate the children, but is allowed to allocate those funds in the manners they think are appropriate.
HEMMER: So...
EDGAR: They're not, however, allowed to do what they will with the curriculum necessarily.
HEMMER: So you're alleging, then, that they were reaching one hand into the right pocket and one hand into the left pocket and keeping most of it, correct?
EDGAR: That's right.
HEMMER: All right, now the school is saying now this is not true, it never happened. They're saying perhaps we owe about 19 grand back. How do you respond to that? Is that the fact?
EDGAR: Nineteen or more a year for several years. It happens that the state did an audit for one year and came up with a number that's close to 19. But that's an incomplete and misleading statement. There are several years that we investigated and this has been going on for quite some time. In essence, we have alleged that the school is being paid to teach the children and at the same time the school is being paid to remove them from the school during classroom times for weeks on end.
HEMMER: You keep us posted, OK?
Russell Edgar down there in Pensacola, Florida.
EDGAR: Thank you.
HEMMER: Nice to see you on this Friday morning -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: An unbelievable story, isn't it?
HEMMER: Um-hmm.
O'BRIEN: Wow.
Well, still to come this morning, Washington leaders, from the president on down, voice increasing alarm about a terror attack on U.S. soil. A look at that is just ahead.
And then some news that dieters can drink to. Is the South Beach diet doctor all wrong? A look at that, as AMERICAN MORNING continues.
We're back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Back to Jack, the Question of the Day.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
An issue that's been simmering since the war in Iraq began, now it's coming to a full boil and almost overnight. Pictures of caskets of American soldiers being returned from Iraq -- 361 photos from Dover Air Force Base were released under the Freedom of Information Act. The Defense Department has forbidden coverage of returning remains of American soldiers.
The question is this -- should the Pentagon be able to ban pictures of coffins of American military personnel?
Janet in Spring Lake, Michigan: "Of course, Americans should see these pictures. However, our ghoulish media will stop at nothing. Remember Diana? The next thing we would have is a frenzy of photos and people selling ball park franks and balloons at each arrival at Dover. The Pentagon is right." Pamela in Hamburg, Michigan: "These soldiers are a very important part of the story. To not honor them upon arrival is disgraceful. They paid the ultimate price for this country, for the people of Iraq, and their story, good or bad, should be told.
Harvey in New Haven, Connecticut: "They should be able to if the families of the soldiers want it to be so. Freedom of the press, unfortunately, needs to be regulated in these times of family mourning."
And January in Rome, Georgia: "I received the flag-draped coffin with my son in it last week. Plenty of pictures have been taken and aired nationwide. I have no problem with this. To me it's a tribute to our fallen soldiers, that people do care. Our motto has become remember the fallen because freedom is not free."
Obviously a very emotional issue and probably not one that's going to go away real fast.
HEMMER: Our best to Jan in Rome, Georgia.
CAFFERTY: Absolutely. And, you know, the Pentagon talks about, you know, respect for the grieving families. A note to the Pentagon -- we all grieve, every single one of us, when one of these caskets comes back. We all grieve. It's not just the families.
HEMMER: That's right.
O'BRIEN: Wow, that's a tough e-mail. Wow.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, with all the non-specific warnings about a terrorist attack coming from Washington, what's being done to stop an attack? A look at that's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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