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CNN Live Today
Jackson Arrives for Arraignment
Aired April 30, 2004 - 10:33 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Focusing now on Santa Maria, California. That is Thomas Mesereau Jr., the new attorney representing Michael Jackson. The pop signer is drawing a crowd to his arraignment. It's scheduled to get underway less than an hour from now.
Among the supporters and the media who have amassed outside the courthouse in Santa Maria, there's also Michael Jackson's mother and father. The so-called King of Pop is accused of sexually molesting a small boy. Today's proceedings will likely reveal details of the grand jury indictment in this five-month-old case.
For on what we can expect today and the significance of the change in attorneys, let's bring in our legal analyst Christopher Darden standing by. Chris, good morning.
CHRISTOPHER DARDEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning. How are you?
KAGAN: I'm doing fine.
We just saw the pictures of Thomas Mesereau Jr. arriving there at the courthouse. he, of course, replaces Mark Geragos and Ben Brafman for Michael Jackson.
In terms of what we will see today, what is the significance of a new attorney for Michael Jackson?
DARDEN: Well, you know, Michael Jackson of course hasn't arrived yet. His defense lawyer is here however. And he's just walked down the corridor toward the area where Michael Jackson's limousine to arrive.
But we expect Michael Jackson here time, this time. We expect him to plead not guilty. And these proceedings should not take very long. That is assuming the lawyers are prepared to deal with the business at hand.
KAGAN: Chris , what can you tell us about Thomas Mesereau?
DARDEN: Well, you know, he has an excellent reputation. He is not the in your face pitbull kind of a lawyer that Mark Geragos is. However, he is known for his preparation. He's known to be a very, very effective cross-examiner. And he is highly regarded in the African-American community in Los Angeles where he attends an African Methodist Episcopal church. And you know it's a great selection for Michael Jackson. He hasn't lost a step in terms of his selection of lawyers at this point.
KAGAN: Michael Jackson will be entering a plea for the second time. Why does he have to do this twice?
DARDEN: Well, once Michael Jackson enters his plea, he'll have 60 days by statute he'll have to go to trial. The grand jury transcripts in this case are going to be released. It'll be interesting to see whether or not they push this case to trial, or whether or not they delay it for several months.
KAGAN: All right. Chris Darden in Santa Maria. We'll get back to you. Also keeping our live cameras aimed at that courthouse in Santa Maria. More on that just ahead. Once again, we expect Michael Jackson to be arriving at that courthouse any moment.
It was just one year ago tomorrow that President Bush landed aboard an aircraft carrier under a banner proclaiming "mission accomplished." That optimistic assessment has been undermines by a mounting death toll and an intensifying campaign season. For the view from the White House, let's check in with correspondent Dana Bash. Dana, good morning.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.
And this is also the last day of the deadliest month so far in Iraq. And I can tell you, Daryn, few here at the White House could have anticipated that that would help be a distinction of the year anniversary of a day and an event that the White House really thought was quite triumphant. And the of course was aircraft carrier landing of the president on the USS Abraham Lincoln and the "mission accomplished" banner over a speech that the president gave declaring major combat over in Iraq.
Now Democrats since then, of course, have used this event as a metaphor for a White House ill-prepared, they say, for the unrest going on now in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Mission accomplished? The mission in Iraq as laid out by President Bush and Vice President Cheney has failed!
Even more disturbing, the disdain for international law and the military bombast of this of this cocky, reckless administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now White House officials, even top White House officials like the Senior Political adviser Karl Rove and others do admit that perhaps it was not a great idea in hindsight to have that banner overhead. But they also say it was for the troops on that ship that had been at sea for a year. But the White House line is that the president did say in his speech aboard that aircraft carrier that there was and still is dangers, and a lot of work to do in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What he said is still correct. But there are still certainly combat operations and dangers that remain in Iraq. I mean, our troops are doing an outstanding job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: But, Daryn, take a look at the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll and compare it last year on how the president is handling Iraq. Now more Americans approve, 48 percent, of how he's handling Iraq. And that is quite different from this time last year which was at 76 percent. That is a 30 point or so difference in Americans perception of how the president is dealing with the situation in Iraq.
Now, the president's campaign advisers are quick to point out when you compare how people feel about the president to how they feel about Senator John Kerry, the president's Democratic opponent, they still think that Mr. Bush is the best suited to deal with the situation in Iraq right now.
But nevertheless, Senator Kerry is taking advantage of this day and the symbolism of this day and he is going to speak in Missouri to Westminister College, the same place that Dick Cheney spoke on Monday and give a blistering attack on John Kerry and his national security credentials.
And we're told Senator Kerry are going to take those "mission accomplished" words should ring true today. However, they don't, and he's going to say they don't because and it's because of the Bush administration's mistake in the war in Iraq and the aftermath.
KAGAN: Dana, let's talk about a visitor to the White House that we should see make an appearance. About an hour from right, the prime minister of Canada, a country, of course, just to the north, but one that there's been some contentious relations with over the last year.
BASH: There has been, and this is the first visit by this prime minister, Paul Martin. The president and Paul Martin did meet once before while in Mexico, but this is, the White House is hoping, the dawn of a new relationship, because as you said, there were some tensions with the former prime minister, Jean Chretien, because of the war in Iraq. There were major differences over the war in Iraq. Canada, at the time, didn't support the president, so the president has been trying to work toward forging a new relationship. They are going to talk about the issues of Iraq and also terrorism, which is of course a big issue because of the border that the U.S. shares with Canada.
KAGAN: Dana Bash at the White House. Dana, thank you. We'll be going live to the White House. We expect an appearance in the Rose Garden by President Bush and by Prime Minister Paul Martin.
We're also live from California, Santa Maria. Michael Jackson has yet to arrive at the courthouse for his arraignment. When he does, we will show you the pictures live, much more ahead from Santa Maria, from Washington and from Iraq.
We take a quick break. We're back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: We're watching a SUV pull up in front of the courthouse in Santa Maria, California. We expect that to be the car carrying Michael Jackson. And by the sound of the crowd that's outside the courthouse, that that would appear to be a good guess.
You see the man with the white hair, though, the bottom left part of your screen. That is Thomas Mesereau Jr. That is the new attorney that Michael Jackson has hired to represent him to defend him in these child molestation charges. Mesereau replaces two other high-profile attorneys. That would be Mark Geragos and Benjamin Brafman, as we're watching the car door open.
Well, that's not Michael Jackson, but we'll keep watching that. There he is. There is the man that is known as the King of Pop. With the traditional umbrella, either trying to shelter him from the sun, or from the fans or from the cameras. Michael Jackson dressed in a conservative suit, not usually how we see him dressed. But this scene outside the Santa Maria courthouse, much more subdued much more quiet, not as many fans and not as out of control as it was back in January, when he made his first appearance in January. He is waving to the fans. We'll see him walk into the courthouse, and just like everyone else, he goes through, and just like it was last time, he will go through the metal detectors and go through security and then enter the courtroom.
Inside of course, the prosecutors. This will be the day that we expect to see parts of the indictment against him unsealed and learn more about the charges that he's facing. This is the second time he's going to have to enter a plea in these child molestation charges.
Our Gary Tuchman is standing by as well.
Gary, the scene outside the courthouse, as I was mentioned, a lot more subdued than when you were there back in January?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT Daryn, a much different scene here today, much calmer, and because of what's going on here, we understand why that's happening. Police allowed Michael Jackson to get out of his car last time in January right on the street, so he had an awful long walk to go inside the courthouse. There were more people here back then also, but today, what authorities have done, is they've put up fencing that stretches for about a sixth of a mile, six-foot tall fencing, and they told Michael Jackson that he would have to come in the parking lot inside of the fenced-in area, so he couldn't be that close to the people who have shown up here, people who, in many case, have been here for six or seven hours. Many of the people were sleeping in blankets at 1:00 and 2:00 in the morning, because it was a cold evening by California standards.
But it's certainly not as crowded. There are a few hundred people here right now. We can tell you, they're well-represented from all over the world. We've seen people from five continents here, North America. We talked a bit from Argentina. We've seen people from Asia, from Japan. We've seen people from England, from Europe, and we've seen Australians who are here. So far, it's worked out quite calmly.
KAGAN: Well, Gary, let me just jump in here, because I don't know if you're able to see the same monitor we're watching, but you're able to see that apparently Michael Jackson and some of these people not too happy about what we're able to sees in the courthouses because he walked through security, and as you can see -- well you can't see.
But what's happening is first Michael Jackson put his hand over the camera that's there in the courthouse. And now we're watching either his security detail or somebody that is there with him put his hand in front of the lens. We are able to see a little bit through the fingers of that hand.
We're going to keep that camera up though and see exactly what we can watch inside this courthouse. As we do that -- and the umbrella is open inside the courthouse as well. Perhaps they're going to use that to block to block the camera -- and Michael Jackson.
While we're doing that and we're watching this very interesting scene inside the courthouse in Santa Maria, Gary, talk about the change in charges that might take place here today.
TUCHMAN: Right, Daryn. And we can see the picture now. And you're right. That is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) an unusual scene, not what you'd expect to see after Michael Jackson jumped on the car last time and was told by his attorneys to perhaps behave a little better this time, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) security his security people would participate in that kind of activity with cameras that have been allowed inside.
What's going to happen today is the judge is going to announce the details of the indictment handed up by the grand jury. Michael Jackson had been charged with seven counts of lewd acts on a child under the age of 14 and two counts of giving the child alcohol. We're not sure if those are the exact counts the grand jury has indicted Michael Jackson on, but we will find out inside the courthouse when the judge announces the charges against Michael Jackson.
KAGAN: Once again, we're watching the scene from inside the courtroom. More people inside the courthouse making their way into the courtroom. We saw also saw by his side Thomas Mesereau Jr. Let's talk a little bit about the change of legal representation for Michael Jackson -- Gary.
TUCHMAN: I'm sorry, Daryn. It's a little hard to hear. One of the reasons it's so hard to hear today is because of the news helicopters are flying above our heads. It makes a lot of noise.
But what has happened is Michael Jackson basically says he fired his two main attorneys, Mark Geragos and Ben Brafman. He says he fired them because his life is at stake, he needs the full attention of an attorney. And then he hired Thomas Mesereau, the man with the wave of white hair flowing to his shoulders who is now representing him, who is now inside the courthouse.
Now it's fairly unusual to hire a new attorney just days before a major hearing like today when you have -- this is in essence his second arraignment. He was arraigned in January on the initial chargers. now he's being arraigned again on the grand jury indictment. It's very rare to get on a new horse in the middle of the race, but that's what Michael Jackson has decided to do.
Representatives of his old legal team will be here to hand over the reins to the new legal team. And then this will start up again just like it did in January with the legal process.
We may very well, Daryn, find out a trial date today from Judge Rodney Melville inside this courtroom in Santa Barbara County in Santa Maria, about 30 miles north of the Neverland Ranch where Michael Jackson resides.
But it's going to be very different this time because we have fewer people here. We do not expect Michael Jackson to do anything like he did last time, jumping on a car.
And that's an important point to bring out. We've heard a lot from police, how difficult it was last time with all of the people here. On Michael Jackson's own Web site he asks people who have come out here to act with the decorum.
But I will tell you last time standing here in the group across the street from the courthouse and watching the people who were here, they were very -- they had a lot of decorum. They were being polite. And until Michael Jackson got on the car and started dancing, that's what set off the all emotions that occurred here.
That's what set off a lot of the problems. People running towards the car. The fear police had that people were going to be run over by the car. And it wouldn't have happened unless Michael Jackson didn't jump on top of the car.
So we do not expect to see that this time.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: ... for a moment. Don't go anywhere. I also want to bring in Harvey Levin, executive producer of the program "Celebrity Justice," that's covered this story very closely. Harvey, Let's talk about this sealed indictment from the grand jury and how much of that we should expect to see today with the arraignment.
HARVEY LEVIN, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Daryn, I'm expecting that -- we've been told all along that this is where it will be unveiled and we will hear the specific charges.
From what I've been hearing, we're going to see kind of the same blueprint of what they charged him with initially. I think the real question is will there be additional charges? There are rumblings there might be a contributing to the delinquency of a minor charge based on the allegations of wine and also allegedly showing nude pictures to the accuser and his brother.
But that remains to be seen. They should be unveiled in court.
KAGAN: And yet one thing that seems to be apparent, Harvey, despite all the investigations, despite the pleas by Santa Barbara County officials for more victims to come forward, there are no more additional victims that have come forward as a result of this investigation and this indictment.
LEVIN: I am being by people involved in this investigation, Daryn, that that is exactly true.
KAGAN: And what's your take on the change in legal representation?
LEVIN: Well, Tom Mesereau is a -- he's a fantastic lawyer. And you know he's also, in some ways, the opposite of Mark Geragos in the sense that he doesn't particularly like trying a case out in public. And it seems to me that Michael Jackson made a clear choice here. He's a really good lawyer.
Here's the wild card, Daryn. Tom Mesereau is a man of real, real principle. And I don't know if you noticed, he was standing next to a woman. I believe she was in a gray suit before Michael Jackson came in.
That attorney was co-counsel with Mesereau in the Blake case. And Mesereau quit the Blake case because Blake wanted to fire that woman. And he said, I am not going to do it. I am going to follow my beliefs. If you want to do it your way, I quit. And that's why Tom Mesereau quit that case.
If Michael Jackson gives him grief and does things or asks Mesereau to do things Mesereau doesn't like, Mesereau is the type of guy that will quit.
KAGAN: And Let's talk about another change that we're seeing today versus the court appearance in January. And that is the absence of the appearance of the Nation of Islam which was very apparent in back January and no sign of them today. LEVIN: Yes. We are told that was something that what was planned when they all met last weekend, that the Nation of Islam would have absolutely have no presence here. We know that Jackson's people worked with the sheriff's department. The sheriff's department beefed up security. Jackson had his own private security.
But he wanted to make a statement that the Nation of Islam is not controlling him. And the statement we're told Jackson wants to make is that he's running the show.
KAGAN: Yes, again, the absence of the Nation of Islam, the private security force. Were you able to see the pictures we were showing live as those security folks put their hands up in front of the camera and then Michael Jackson as well, that -- the camera inside the courthouse?
LEVIN: You know, I was watching that and I was watching before. And it's almost as if he can't help himself when he walked in. It was so business-like and so by the book. And you think, well, you know, this is going to be weird. This is going to be kind of playing it straight today.
And then, suddenly, I think that -- it looks like he actually moved the camera a little bit. And, again, this is the pool camera meaning that all of the media combined and they have one camera inside. And it's just kind of interesting why he did this.
I'm watching CNN right now and you see it looks like he actually touched the camera and turned it a bit. And it's odd that at this point in walking in the courtroom and then, suddenly, they do not want these cameras trained on him.
KAGAN: Let me ask you another question -- and we should point out that there are no cameras in the courtroom today.
LEVIN: Correct.
KAGAN: I want to ask you a question in terms of legal strategy here. The defense attorneys will get the grand jury transcripts as of today, as I understand that. What do they do with those and how can that help or hurt them and the prosecution leading up to the trial?
LEVIN: Well there were rumblings, Daryn, that Geragos might have challenged the grand jury based on the extreme secrecy and allegations that some of the people were actually intimidated.
I don't know that Tom Mesereau is going to go that route. But for the purpose of appeal, depending on what happens, if Tom Mesereau sees anything in there. For example, if certain evidence that tends to show that Michael Jackson was not guilty was not presented, Tom Mesereau may mount a case there and say that the grand jury proceedings were not by the book.
And a lot of this is done for the purpose of appeal. But also, Daryn, some of it is done for the purpose of the public. And if there is any argument you can make to kind of turn things so that people are focusing not on Jackson but the way the case is prosecuted, that is good strategy for a celebrity. And if Mesereau thinks he can do that even if he can't win the argument, he still may do it to take the focus Off Jackson.
KAGAN: In terms of the prosecution, they went the grand jury route instead of the preliminary hearing. It keeps them from having to lay out publicly most of what -- the case they have.
But now they have the people who will be testifying in this case on the record, making statements. And can't the defense exploit that in terms of trying to point out inconsistencies if those witnesses don't hit it exactly right when they take the stand?
LEVIN: Absolutely, they can. But I have to tell you, this grand jury proceeding was probably good for Tom Mesereau.
And I think we've talked about this before, Daryn. We have confirmed that right after the boy and his mother testified, they wanted out of this case, before the grand jury. They were so emotionally upset from the experience they wanted out.
And even Tom Sneddon, the D.A. could not talk them back in. It was attorney Larry Feldman who sat them down and calmed them down.
And I think that's extremely interesting because they were not cross-examined and they would have had they gone the preliminary hearing route.
KAGAN: And that's a good point to make. What they faces in the grand jury room, nothing compared to what that boy will have to face when he takes the stand.
LEVIN: It's going to be five-fold harder for the boy. And in some ways, the boy doesn't know how difficult it's going to be. And I'm sure Tom Mesereau is happy about that.
KAGAN: Very good. We will be watching. And, Harvey Levin from "Celebrity Justice" thank you so much.
LEVIN: Good talking to you, Daryn.
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Aired April 30, 2004 - 10:33 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Focusing now on Santa Maria, California. That is Thomas Mesereau Jr., the new attorney representing Michael Jackson. The pop signer is drawing a crowd to his arraignment. It's scheduled to get underway less than an hour from now.
Among the supporters and the media who have amassed outside the courthouse in Santa Maria, there's also Michael Jackson's mother and father. The so-called King of Pop is accused of sexually molesting a small boy. Today's proceedings will likely reveal details of the grand jury indictment in this five-month-old case.
For on what we can expect today and the significance of the change in attorneys, let's bring in our legal analyst Christopher Darden standing by. Chris, good morning.
CHRISTOPHER DARDEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning. How are you?
KAGAN: I'm doing fine.
We just saw the pictures of Thomas Mesereau Jr. arriving there at the courthouse. he, of course, replaces Mark Geragos and Ben Brafman for Michael Jackson.
In terms of what we will see today, what is the significance of a new attorney for Michael Jackson?
DARDEN: Well, you know, Michael Jackson of course hasn't arrived yet. His defense lawyer is here however. And he's just walked down the corridor toward the area where Michael Jackson's limousine to arrive.
But we expect Michael Jackson here time, this time. We expect him to plead not guilty. And these proceedings should not take very long. That is assuming the lawyers are prepared to deal with the business at hand.
KAGAN: Chris , what can you tell us about Thomas Mesereau?
DARDEN: Well, you know, he has an excellent reputation. He is not the in your face pitbull kind of a lawyer that Mark Geragos is. However, he is known for his preparation. He's known to be a very, very effective cross-examiner. And he is highly regarded in the African-American community in Los Angeles where he attends an African Methodist Episcopal church. And you know it's a great selection for Michael Jackson. He hasn't lost a step in terms of his selection of lawyers at this point.
KAGAN: Michael Jackson will be entering a plea for the second time. Why does he have to do this twice?
DARDEN: Well, once Michael Jackson enters his plea, he'll have 60 days by statute he'll have to go to trial. The grand jury transcripts in this case are going to be released. It'll be interesting to see whether or not they push this case to trial, or whether or not they delay it for several months.
KAGAN: All right. Chris Darden in Santa Maria. We'll get back to you. Also keeping our live cameras aimed at that courthouse in Santa Maria. More on that just ahead. Once again, we expect Michael Jackson to be arriving at that courthouse any moment.
It was just one year ago tomorrow that President Bush landed aboard an aircraft carrier under a banner proclaiming "mission accomplished." That optimistic assessment has been undermines by a mounting death toll and an intensifying campaign season. For the view from the White House, let's check in with correspondent Dana Bash. Dana, good morning.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.
And this is also the last day of the deadliest month so far in Iraq. And I can tell you, Daryn, few here at the White House could have anticipated that that would help be a distinction of the year anniversary of a day and an event that the White House really thought was quite triumphant. And the of course was aircraft carrier landing of the president on the USS Abraham Lincoln and the "mission accomplished" banner over a speech that the president gave declaring major combat over in Iraq.
Now Democrats since then, of course, have used this event as a metaphor for a White House ill-prepared, they say, for the unrest going on now in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Mission accomplished? The mission in Iraq as laid out by President Bush and Vice President Cheney has failed!
Even more disturbing, the disdain for international law and the military bombast of this of this cocky, reckless administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now White House officials, even top White House officials like the Senior Political adviser Karl Rove and others do admit that perhaps it was not a great idea in hindsight to have that banner overhead. But they also say it was for the troops on that ship that had been at sea for a year. But the White House line is that the president did say in his speech aboard that aircraft carrier that there was and still is dangers, and a lot of work to do in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What he said is still correct. But there are still certainly combat operations and dangers that remain in Iraq. I mean, our troops are doing an outstanding job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: But, Daryn, take a look at the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll and compare it last year on how the president is handling Iraq. Now more Americans approve, 48 percent, of how he's handling Iraq. And that is quite different from this time last year which was at 76 percent. That is a 30 point or so difference in Americans perception of how the president is dealing with the situation in Iraq.
Now, the president's campaign advisers are quick to point out when you compare how people feel about the president to how they feel about Senator John Kerry, the president's Democratic opponent, they still think that Mr. Bush is the best suited to deal with the situation in Iraq right now.
But nevertheless, Senator Kerry is taking advantage of this day and the symbolism of this day and he is going to speak in Missouri to Westminister College, the same place that Dick Cheney spoke on Monday and give a blistering attack on John Kerry and his national security credentials.
And we're told Senator Kerry are going to take those "mission accomplished" words should ring true today. However, they don't, and he's going to say they don't because and it's because of the Bush administration's mistake in the war in Iraq and the aftermath.
KAGAN: Dana, let's talk about a visitor to the White House that we should see make an appearance. About an hour from right, the prime minister of Canada, a country, of course, just to the north, but one that there's been some contentious relations with over the last year.
BASH: There has been, and this is the first visit by this prime minister, Paul Martin. The president and Paul Martin did meet once before while in Mexico, but this is, the White House is hoping, the dawn of a new relationship, because as you said, there were some tensions with the former prime minister, Jean Chretien, because of the war in Iraq. There were major differences over the war in Iraq. Canada, at the time, didn't support the president, so the president has been trying to work toward forging a new relationship. They are going to talk about the issues of Iraq and also terrorism, which is of course a big issue because of the border that the U.S. shares with Canada.
KAGAN: Dana Bash at the White House. Dana, thank you. We'll be going live to the White House. We expect an appearance in the Rose Garden by President Bush and by Prime Minister Paul Martin.
We're also live from California, Santa Maria. Michael Jackson has yet to arrive at the courthouse for his arraignment. When he does, we will show you the pictures live, much more ahead from Santa Maria, from Washington and from Iraq.
We take a quick break. We're back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: We're watching a SUV pull up in front of the courthouse in Santa Maria, California. We expect that to be the car carrying Michael Jackson. And by the sound of the crowd that's outside the courthouse, that that would appear to be a good guess.
You see the man with the white hair, though, the bottom left part of your screen. That is Thomas Mesereau Jr. That is the new attorney that Michael Jackson has hired to represent him to defend him in these child molestation charges. Mesereau replaces two other high-profile attorneys. That would be Mark Geragos and Benjamin Brafman, as we're watching the car door open.
Well, that's not Michael Jackson, but we'll keep watching that. There he is. There is the man that is known as the King of Pop. With the traditional umbrella, either trying to shelter him from the sun, or from the fans or from the cameras. Michael Jackson dressed in a conservative suit, not usually how we see him dressed. But this scene outside the Santa Maria courthouse, much more subdued much more quiet, not as many fans and not as out of control as it was back in January, when he made his first appearance in January. He is waving to the fans. We'll see him walk into the courthouse, and just like everyone else, he goes through, and just like it was last time, he will go through the metal detectors and go through security and then enter the courtroom.
Inside of course, the prosecutors. This will be the day that we expect to see parts of the indictment against him unsealed and learn more about the charges that he's facing. This is the second time he's going to have to enter a plea in these child molestation charges.
Our Gary Tuchman is standing by as well.
Gary, the scene outside the courthouse, as I was mentioned, a lot more subdued than when you were there back in January?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT Daryn, a much different scene here today, much calmer, and because of what's going on here, we understand why that's happening. Police allowed Michael Jackson to get out of his car last time in January right on the street, so he had an awful long walk to go inside the courthouse. There were more people here back then also, but today, what authorities have done, is they've put up fencing that stretches for about a sixth of a mile, six-foot tall fencing, and they told Michael Jackson that he would have to come in the parking lot inside of the fenced-in area, so he couldn't be that close to the people who have shown up here, people who, in many case, have been here for six or seven hours. Many of the people were sleeping in blankets at 1:00 and 2:00 in the morning, because it was a cold evening by California standards.
But it's certainly not as crowded. There are a few hundred people here right now. We can tell you, they're well-represented from all over the world. We've seen people from five continents here, North America. We talked a bit from Argentina. We've seen people from Asia, from Japan. We've seen people from England, from Europe, and we've seen Australians who are here. So far, it's worked out quite calmly.
KAGAN: Well, Gary, let me just jump in here, because I don't know if you're able to see the same monitor we're watching, but you're able to see that apparently Michael Jackson and some of these people not too happy about what we're able to sees in the courthouses because he walked through security, and as you can see -- well you can't see.
But what's happening is first Michael Jackson put his hand over the camera that's there in the courthouse. And now we're watching either his security detail or somebody that is there with him put his hand in front of the lens. We are able to see a little bit through the fingers of that hand.
We're going to keep that camera up though and see exactly what we can watch inside this courthouse. As we do that -- and the umbrella is open inside the courthouse as well. Perhaps they're going to use that to block to block the camera -- and Michael Jackson.
While we're doing that and we're watching this very interesting scene inside the courthouse in Santa Maria, Gary, talk about the change in charges that might take place here today.
TUCHMAN: Right, Daryn. And we can see the picture now. And you're right. That is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) an unusual scene, not what you'd expect to see after Michael Jackson jumped on the car last time and was told by his attorneys to perhaps behave a little better this time, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) security his security people would participate in that kind of activity with cameras that have been allowed inside.
What's going to happen today is the judge is going to announce the details of the indictment handed up by the grand jury. Michael Jackson had been charged with seven counts of lewd acts on a child under the age of 14 and two counts of giving the child alcohol. We're not sure if those are the exact counts the grand jury has indicted Michael Jackson on, but we will find out inside the courthouse when the judge announces the charges against Michael Jackson.
KAGAN: Once again, we're watching the scene from inside the courtroom. More people inside the courthouse making their way into the courtroom. We saw also saw by his side Thomas Mesereau Jr. Let's talk a little bit about the change of legal representation for Michael Jackson -- Gary.
TUCHMAN: I'm sorry, Daryn. It's a little hard to hear. One of the reasons it's so hard to hear today is because of the news helicopters are flying above our heads. It makes a lot of noise.
But what has happened is Michael Jackson basically says he fired his two main attorneys, Mark Geragos and Ben Brafman. He says he fired them because his life is at stake, he needs the full attention of an attorney. And then he hired Thomas Mesereau, the man with the wave of white hair flowing to his shoulders who is now representing him, who is now inside the courthouse.
Now it's fairly unusual to hire a new attorney just days before a major hearing like today when you have -- this is in essence his second arraignment. He was arraigned in January on the initial chargers. now he's being arraigned again on the grand jury indictment. It's very rare to get on a new horse in the middle of the race, but that's what Michael Jackson has decided to do.
Representatives of his old legal team will be here to hand over the reins to the new legal team. And then this will start up again just like it did in January with the legal process.
We may very well, Daryn, find out a trial date today from Judge Rodney Melville inside this courtroom in Santa Barbara County in Santa Maria, about 30 miles north of the Neverland Ranch where Michael Jackson resides.
But it's going to be very different this time because we have fewer people here. We do not expect Michael Jackson to do anything like he did last time, jumping on a car.
And that's an important point to bring out. We've heard a lot from police, how difficult it was last time with all of the people here. On Michael Jackson's own Web site he asks people who have come out here to act with the decorum.
But I will tell you last time standing here in the group across the street from the courthouse and watching the people who were here, they were very -- they had a lot of decorum. They were being polite. And until Michael Jackson got on the car and started dancing, that's what set off the all emotions that occurred here.
That's what set off a lot of the problems. People running towards the car. The fear police had that people were going to be run over by the car. And it wouldn't have happened unless Michael Jackson didn't jump on top of the car.
So we do not expect to see that this time.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: ... for a moment. Don't go anywhere. I also want to bring in Harvey Levin, executive producer of the program "Celebrity Justice," that's covered this story very closely. Harvey, Let's talk about this sealed indictment from the grand jury and how much of that we should expect to see today with the arraignment.
HARVEY LEVIN, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Daryn, I'm expecting that -- we've been told all along that this is where it will be unveiled and we will hear the specific charges.
From what I've been hearing, we're going to see kind of the same blueprint of what they charged him with initially. I think the real question is will there be additional charges? There are rumblings there might be a contributing to the delinquency of a minor charge based on the allegations of wine and also allegedly showing nude pictures to the accuser and his brother.
But that remains to be seen. They should be unveiled in court.
KAGAN: And yet one thing that seems to be apparent, Harvey, despite all the investigations, despite the pleas by Santa Barbara County officials for more victims to come forward, there are no more additional victims that have come forward as a result of this investigation and this indictment.
LEVIN: I am being by people involved in this investigation, Daryn, that that is exactly true.
KAGAN: And what's your take on the change in legal representation?
LEVIN: Well, Tom Mesereau is a -- he's a fantastic lawyer. And you know he's also, in some ways, the opposite of Mark Geragos in the sense that he doesn't particularly like trying a case out in public. And it seems to me that Michael Jackson made a clear choice here. He's a really good lawyer.
Here's the wild card, Daryn. Tom Mesereau is a man of real, real principle. And I don't know if you noticed, he was standing next to a woman. I believe she was in a gray suit before Michael Jackson came in.
That attorney was co-counsel with Mesereau in the Blake case. And Mesereau quit the Blake case because Blake wanted to fire that woman. And he said, I am not going to do it. I am going to follow my beliefs. If you want to do it your way, I quit. And that's why Tom Mesereau quit that case.
If Michael Jackson gives him grief and does things or asks Mesereau to do things Mesereau doesn't like, Mesereau is the type of guy that will quit.
KAGAN: And Let's talk about another change that we're seeing today versus the court appearance in January. And that is the absence of the appearance of the Nation of Islam which was very apparent in back January and no sign of them today. LEVIN: Yes. We are told that was something that what was planned when they all met last weekend, that the Nation of Islam would have absolutely have no presence here. We know that Jackson's people worked with the sheriff's department. The sheriff's department beefed up security. Jackson had his own private security.
But he wanted to make a statement that the Nation of Islam is not controlling him. And the statement we're told Jackson wants to make is that he's running the show.
KAGAN: Yes, again, the absence of the Nation of Islam, the private security force. Were you able to see the pictures we were showing live as those security folks put their hands up in front of the camera and then Michael Jackson as well, that -- the camera inside the courthouse?
LEVIN: You know, I was watching that and I was watching before. And it's almost as if he can't help himself when he walked in. It was so business-like and so by the book. And you think, well, you know, this is going to be weird. This is going to be kind of playing it straight today.
And then, suddenly, I think that -- it looks like he actually moved the camera a little bit. And, again, this is the pool camera meaning that all of the media combined and they have one camera inside. And it's just kind of interesting why he did this.
I'm watching CNN right now and you see it looks like he actually touched the camera and turned it a bit. And it's odd that at this point in walking in the courtroom and then, suddenly, they do not want these cameras trained on him.
KAGAN: Let me ask you another question -- and we should point out that there are no cameras in the courtroom today.
LEVIN: Correct.
KAGAN: I want to ask you a question in terms of legal strategy here. The defense attorneys will get the grand jury transcripts as of today, as I understand that. What do they do with those and how can that help or hurt them and the prosecution leading up to the trial?
LEVIN: Well there were rumblings, Daryn, that Geragos might have challenged the grand jury based on the extreme secrecy and allegations that some of the people were actually intimidated.
I don't know that Tom Mesereau is going to go that route. But for the purpose of appeal, depending on what happens, if Tom Mesereau sees anything in there. For example, if certain evidence that tends to show that Michael Jackson was not guilty was not presented, Tom Mesereau may mount a case there and say that the grand jury proceedings were not by the book.
And a lot of this is done for the purpose of appeal. But also, Daryn, some of it is done for the purpose of the public. And if there is any argument you can make to kind of turn things so that people are focusing not on Jackson but the way the case is prosecuted, that is good strategy for a celebrity. And if Mesereau thinks he can do that even if he can't win the argument, he still may do it to take the focus Off Jackson.
KAGAN: In terms of the prosecution, they went the grand jury route instead of the preliminary hearing. It keeps them from having to lay out publicly most of what -- the case they have.
But now they have the people who will be testifying in this case on the record, making statements. And can't the defense exploit that in terms of trying to point out inconsistencies if those witnesses don't hit it exactly right when they take the stand?
LEVIN: Absolutely, they can. But I have to tell you, this grand jury proceeding was probably good for Tom Mesereau.
And I think we've talked about this before, Daryn. We have confirmed that right after the boy and his mother testified, they wanted out of this case, before the grand jury. They were so emotionally upset from the experience they wanted out.
And even Tom Sneddon, the D.A. could not talk them back in. It was attorney Larry Feldman who sat them down and calmed them down.
And I think that's extremely interesting because they were not cross-examined and they would have had they gone the preliminary hearing route.
KAGAN: And that's a good point to make. What they faces in the grand jury room, nothing compared to what that boy will have to face when he takes the stand.
LEVIN: It's going to be five-fold harder for the boy. And in some ways, the boy doesn't know how difficult it's going to be. And I'm sure Tom Mesereau is happy about that.
KAGAN: Very good. We will be watching. And, Harvey Levin from "Celebrity Justice" thank you so much.
LEVIN: Good talking to you, Daryn.
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