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CNN Live Sunday

Interview With Authors Of "Cracking The DaVinci Code"; "New Yorker" Reports, Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Widespread

Aired May 02, 2004 - 16:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SUNDAY: Here are the latest developments at this hour.
Free and in stable condition. Military officials say a U.S. contractor Thomas Hamill escaped from his captors today in Iraq. He had been missing since last month when he was taken hostage in Baghdad. Two Iraqis were detained after Hamill led troops to a house where he had been held near Tikrit.

And near Ramadi, a mortar attack today killed six U.S. troops and wounded 30 others. Three more U.S. troops died in other attacks in Iraq today.

The U.S. Joint Chief Chairman General Richard Myers says this former general in Saddam Hussein's Republican guard is not likely to take control of Fallujah, but Myers says General Jassim Mohammed Saleh is being evaluated to lead possibly Iraqi peacekeeping force.

Well you've likely seen the photographs aired last week that prompted international outrage over the treatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers at Baghdads Abu Ghraib Prison. Now more since allegations of abuse are being detailed in an article in the "New Yorker." CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us from the Pentagon with those details -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Betty, the "New Yorker" magazine obtained a just completed internal army investigation of Abu Ghraib Prison that finds that the abuse there was widespread, and this internal investigation also reportedly finds that those six soldiers who are charged now in the case did not act alone, according to the report, the CIA, private contractors, and military intelligence officers helped call the shots at the prison, encouraging the humiliation and mistreatment of prisoners. The journalist who obtained the report says one interrogation had deadly results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEYMOUR HERSH, THE "NEW YORKER:" They killed either civilians, the private guards or the CIA or the military, killed him during an interrogation, they were worried about it, they packed him in ice. They killed him in the evening, they packed him in ice for 24 hours, put him in a body bag and eventually at a certain time, don't forget the prison has a lot of other army units around it, and they didn't want to be seen with a dead body.

So they packed him in ice until the appropriate time, they put him on a trolley, like a hospital gurney, put a fake I.V. into him and they walked out as if he was getting an I.V., walked him out, got him in an ambulance, drove him off and the dumped the body somewhere. That literally happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: The Pentagon is investigating that charge as well as others, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers made the rounds of the Sunday morning talk shows today, insisting that those responsible would be brought to justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF: I'm appalled by the actions of those few as well, that we all know about. That we have seen in the pictures. That is not how the American military acts or should act. And it's a shame that just a handful can besmirch the reputations of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: In a variety of newspaper reports and also in a journal that was kept by one of the soldiers there, both commanding officers and some of those involved say that military officers, or excuse me intelligence officers, told them to conduct these acts in order to soften the prisoners up for questioning, but a senior defense official who I spoke with not long ago says that for any person in the military to believe that such an order to conduct such acts to engage in such behavior was a legal order to be followed is simply preposterous -- Betty.

NGUYEN: CNN Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon. Thank you.

In the Middle East today, a crucial vote, a dreadful attack and a forceful response. Israeli helicopters fired rockets at a building that's home to a Hamas radio station. No word yet on possibility casualties from that air strikes.

It took place just hours after a pregnant woman and her four children were killed near a block of Jewish settlements in Gaza. The family was en route to Israel where the woman planned to lobby against the idea of uprooting such settlements. That proposal is reportedly being voted down by members of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's party today. Exit polls sited by Israel media indicate it's being soundly rejected. Mr. Sharon can still push for a national referendum on the issue.

Well 34 years and four children later, Tom McCabe wants his job back, but there is one small problem he is married. We'll explain why that's a problem.

And "Cracking the DaVinci Code" when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: The Roman Catholic church is suffering from a shortage of priests, some say it's because the church requires all priests to remain celibate. Now a growing number of priests are speaking out against that policy, and among them a former priest who is now married. Our Alina Cho brings us his story from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To many, Tom and Eileen McCabe have the perfect marriage, four grown children, and a quiet life. Thirty-four years, you probably made the right decision.

EILEEN MCCABE, WIFE: I think so.

TOM MCCABE: As I tell Eileen I have no regrets, not one.

CHO: It wasn't easy in the beginning, Tom was a priest so he made a choice, he married Eileen in 1970 only after leaving the priesthood. Only after ten years of serving God.

T. MCCABE: It broke my heart that I would have to leave the job I liked doing the most.

E. MCCABE: When he left I realized he was leaving something very, very special. And I guess I wasn't sure he was going to be happy.

CHO: They are, except Tom would like to be a priest again. The Roman Catholic Church does not allow priests to be married. Church law also says they must be celibate. The Pope has indicated celibacy is a gift to the church and has rejected all calls to reverse policy.

The problem for the Roman Catholic Church is that it is facing a critical shortage of priests. There are 64 million Catholics in the U.S., one in five Americans, and only 45,000 priests to serve them.

REV. THOMAS REESE, EDITOR "AMERICAN MAGAZINE:" If we don't have priests to serve our people, the people are going to go elsewhere. So I think the church has a serious problem.

CHO: Tom McCabe says he's not against priest celibacy. He just wants it to be optional. The church disagrees.

REV. THOMAS LYNCH, ARCHOIDCESE OF NEW YORK: This world that we live in needs the radical witness of celibate clergy.

CHO: Others say that optional celibacy may not be the answer.

REESE: Certainly it is going to be more expensive for parishes, for the people in the pews because you're going to have to support a family.

CHO: Tom McCabe says he would be an asset to the church, years of experience.

T. MCCABE: Yes, but it better happen soon.

CHO: It's the right thing to do he says. If history is any guide, change may be slow to come. Alina Cho, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Well some are debating whether priests should marry, another controversy rages over the novel suggesting that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and had children. That is just one of the provocative ideas that have a growing number of Christians denouncing Dan Brown's book, "The DaVinci Code" especially now that it's bound for the screen, the big screen.

Brown isn't giving any interviews, but among his detractors are the authors of "Cracking the DaVinci Code" James Garlow, who joins us from Kansas City, and Peter Jones in San Diego. Thanks for being here. First off, to both of you, this is a fictional book, so why the fear that people are going to believe it to be true? Mr. Garlow lets start with you.

JAMES GARLOW, COAUTHOR, "CRACKING DAVINCI'S CODE:" The fact is people are believing it. I've encountered many people who have had friends and relatives and loved ones who have read it and they believe it. Unfortunately, they take what is a novel loaded with historical inaccuracies, and they do believe it, and the results is the historical inaccuracies lead them to theological inaccuracies.

NGUYEN: Mr. Jones, do you fear that some six million copies have been sold, that these six million folks believe this fictional book to be true?

PETER JONES, COAUTHOR, "CRACKING DAVINCI'S CODE:" Well Betty we don't want to become killjoys, we think it's well written, but John Grisham and Tom Clancy, Dan Brown is not.

You cannot explain the success of this book on the basis of the great literature. What it is doing, though, is presenting a particular view of the Christian faith that is at odds with the Christian faith, it seems to us, and we need to be able to explain to people why that is.

NGUYEN: So Mr. Garlow, let's talk about those specific areas where you feel the book is misleading.

GARLOW: For one, he makes the case that Constantine, in the year 325, and the council of Nicea there forced a group of bishops, or encouraged a group of bishops, to vote that Jesus was divine, and sort foisted that upon the population. When in realty Jesus was perceived as being divine by his original followers and in the writings in the first and second century. Dan Brown tries to make the case that Jesus wasn't even seen as being divine until the fourth century. That's simply historically inaccurate.

NGUYEN: Mr. Jones how does your book clear up these questions?

JONES: Well we try Betty, to give some answers to the historical questions. I think much of the historical evidence is soundly in favor of the new testament as historical evidence goes, but what we also do is we attempt to uncrack a much bigger code that we feel is present on the pages of Dan Brown's novel, which is a total redefinition of spirituality, of what the Christian faith is, and of who God is.

NGUYEN: The author, Dan Brown, said that he is a Christian, and he says that he welcomes this debate. And I want to read you a quote. He doesn't do any interviews, but we did receive a quote from him, it says, "that the DaVinci Code is a novel and therefore a work of fiction. While the book's characters and their actions are obviously not real. The artwork, architecture, documents, and cecret rituals depicted in this novel all exist. These real elements are interpreted and debated by fictional characters." So he's welcoming this kind of dialogue.

JONES: Well, we welcome it too. As a matter of fact, Betty, we are glad this debate is happening, because you know, so many people are now raising the issues of what it means to be a Christian. And we just want to point out, for viewers who are watching your show and others that there is a specific meaning to the word Christian and Dan Brown is giving a totally different one.

NGUYEN: And speaking of that, he also says, "The dialogue is wonderful. The more vigorously, we debate these important topics the better our understanding of our own spirituality. Controversy and dialogue are healthy for religion as a whole. Religion has only one true enemy, apathy, and passionate debate is a superb antidote." Mr. Garlow you are obviously passionate about making sure folks know fact from fiction.

GARLOW: Well I am. I am actually a pastor of a church in San Diego myself, and I encourage people in our church to read Dan Brown's book, because they'll see right away the historical errors, and will cause them to dig deeper to study themselves, and they'll discover how reliable their new testament is, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John for example. In contrast to the Gnostic writings that Dan Brown refers to so lovingly. They will also do research on such topics as Jesus who he claims to be, the Son of God. Is really divine? And when they do that kind of research, I'm very encouraged at what they're going to find out.

NGUYEN: Mr. Jones, we understand the "DaVinci Code" well that could be hitting the theaters sometime next year, does that cause some concern for you?

JONES: Well, in as much as it does present the totally antithetical view of Christianity for the orthodox view of Christianity, I think the movie will take this particular view to the masses even more than the book.

I don't agree with Brown that the greatest enemy to spirituality is apathy, though I don't like apathy, and I think people should be aware of spirituality, the greatest enemy is false spirituality, and that we need to point out.

NGUYEN: Let's talk quickly about the Mary Magdalene controversy. That has got a lot of people questioning it, Mr. Garlow what do you think?

GARLOW: Well, he builds his entire case for that upon the gospel of Phillip, which is written in 250 A.D., a questionable piece of literature. Now you can either follow something that was written 250 years after the fact or you can follow those writers who were with Jesus closer to his time frame, like 50 A.D., when Paul was writing or the gospels written by 70 A.D., which were people who were actually with Jesus.

There's no biblical evidence at all that Jesus was married, or any kind of a sexual companion to Mary Magdalene, like Dan Brown suggests. He is relying on text much later and considerably less reliability.

NGUYEN: OK. James Garlow and Peter Jones authors of "Cracking the DaVinci Code," we appreciate your time.

GARLOW: Thank you.

JONES: Your very welcome. Good to be with you.

NGUYEN: A question for you, why are Dalmatians the breed we associate with firefighters? Well the answer plus some dogs that have become legends among their fire fighter masters when CNN LIVE SUNDAY continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: For well over a century, they've been a firefighter's best friends. Dalmatians are as much a part of firehouse lore as well as ladders and hoses. Nowhere is that more true then and now. Men in the city of Chicago. There's a new book out documenting the role of dogs that live and serve in Chicago's firehouses. The firefighter's best friends, lives and legends of Chicago's fire housedogs; it offers tales of the unique animals on duties 24/7. It was written by brothers Trevor and Drew Orsinger. Trevor joins now from Chicago and Drew from our Washington bureau. Thanks for being here.

TREVOR ORSINGER, COAUTHOR, "FIREFIGHTERS BEST FRIEND:" Thank you Betty, it is good to be here.

NGUYEN: Well let's talk about the history of this. Dalmatians why was that particular breed picked?

DREW ORSINGER, COAUTHOR, "FIREFIGHTERS BEST FRIEND:" Well Dalmatians are -- come from England back in the early 1700s, and the Dalmatians were initially used in the air stock receipts, you clear the streets for the horses, and specifically the Dalmatian was really adept because of their temperament to the horses and allowed the horses to get closer to the scenes of fires. And that tradition has extended over from England to here today.

NGUYEN: Drew let's talk about the tradition in Chicago. Tell us a little bit about that.

D. ORSINGER: Well, in Chicago, there is really one of the richest histories of firedogs. There aren't too many cities in the United States that can boast the presence of dogs mainly because of the ordinances and regulations that prohibit dogs from living in fires houses, but Chicago still has about 25 dogs working and living in Chicago firehouses today.

NGUYEN: Trevor, you have a lot of history in here, and a lot of stories to tell. Let's start with Felix, one of the dogs that we have a picture, who is climbing a ladder I understand, and a picture that's in the book.

T. ORSINGER: That is right Betty. Felix is the Babe Ruth of Chicago firehouse dog. He was known for rescuing children, rescuing several firefighters. And being just a hero of a dog, he lived in the 1920s, and upon his death, there was an elaborate funeral, kids were let out of school for the day, and accorded him full firehouse honors, and actually 80 years later a statue in his honor still stands in the southern suburbs of Chicago.

NGUYEN: How much do these dogs really help Trevor or are they just mainly there to be a friend?

T. ORSINGER: They're both a friend and a working dog. They are nowadays mostly in charge of security of the firehouse. When an engine gets a run, the dog is the only person left behind at the station and is in charge of making sure that nobody breaks in.

NGUYEN: I can only imagine all the many stories that you have to tell and have seen throughout the years. Drew, let's talk about a particular dog named Sarge?

D. ORSINGER: Sarge was an amazing dog. Sarge was credited with saving the lives of many firefighters. Because as they were in working at the scene of a fire in a burning building, There was a puddle of water that had become electrocuted because of a fallen wire. And a firefighter had noticed that Sarge had stepped into the puddle, and was electrocuted, and the firefighters immediately knew not to go into that puddle of water. As with many of the firedogs in Chicago the fire fighters credit Sarge with saving their lives.

NGUYEN: And we do have a picture that we want to show from Sarge's funeral. Tell us about that.

D. ORSINGER: Sarge, as it stands with many of the dogs in Chicago, there is a cemetery behind all the firehouses in the city. Sarge's funeral was just as well attended as many other of the funerals that were in Chicago. It's just one small indication of how much reverence that these guys feel for the dogs.

NGUYEN: Absolutely. These dogs make a huge difference and I understand Trevor that they also donate blood?

T. ORSINGER: That's correct. There's a dog at engine 103 on the west side of Chicago, the dog's name is Lugnut. He was donated to the house by the Humane Society I believe it was, and in payment, the firefighters every year will bring Lugnut over to the Humane Society, and he will donate blood. So it's his way of giving back to the community.

NGUYEN: Oh absolutely. Drew, let's talk about some of the many stories in the book. Is there one in particular that's your favorite? D. ORSINGER: One of the best, and one of Trevor's favorites is Boots out of Engine 78. Engine 78 is right across the street from Wrigley Field, and it's a classic story where Boots actually was out of the firehouse one day and managed to get into the left field -- actual left field of Wrigley Field. And none of the ushers could catch Boots, and they had to bring over the captain of the firehouse to come over and get him before they took him off to applauding Cubs fans there in Wrigley.

NGUYEN: You both have seemed to do a lot of research on this. Trevor, let's start with you. How did you get interested into this?

T. ORSINGER: This idea was conceived on New Year's Eve of 2000. And we were visiting a friend of ours in the Chicago firehouse; it was actually the oldest working firehouse in the city. We left the firehouse with tales of dogs at that particular house and dogs throughout the city, and we wondered that night if this had ever been done before, and it hadn't. We got our publisher Ray (UNINTELLIGBLE) to get on board, and we started researching it, and that entailed hours and hours of interviewing, museum shopping, and attempting to gain as much information as we could.

NGUYEN: And Drew, have you been able to meet some of the dogs yourself?

D. ORSINGER: Oh, yes. And to be honest it wouldn't be fair without giving credit to all the firefighters in Chicago, both actively working in the city as well as all the retired fire fighters that we talked to. Many of which are now down in Florida retired. This book is really as much a tribute to them as it is to the dogs. It's really a wonderful human-interest story in terms of the relationship that they share with each other.

NGUYEN: Quickly, Trevor, I understand some of the proceeds will go to charity from this book?

T. ORSINGER: That's correct. It's the Illinois Fire and Safety Alliance. And they provide a camp for children who have been victims of fire. It's a two-week camp that is run in the summer. And it's a cause very close to the firefighters' hearts.

NGUYEN: OK Trevor Orsinger and Drew Orsinger as well and we want to tell you the name of the book again, it's "The Fire Fighters Best Friend." Lives and legends of Chicago's firehouse dogs. We thank you both for joining us.

T. ORSINGER: Thank you.

D. ORSINGER: Thank you Betty.

NGUYEN: And we'd like to take a few moments now to poke a little fun at our selves and other news networks with a little help from Jay Leno. He followed President Bush at the podium last night at the annual White House Correspondents Association Dinner in Washington. Leno said one particular aspect of news coverage bothers him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST "THE TONIGHT SHOW:" I have cable news on all day, I have them all on, and I must say the reporters do a wonderful job covering the war, they do wonderful job covering the campaign. But why do reporters feel they have to cover hurricanes? You cannot cover hurricanes? Take a look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The winds right now are well over 70 miles an hour. That's my best guess. I don't have any instruments to measure them right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm really fighting to stay upright right now. The storm really testing me and even taking down my pants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allow me to introduce to you Mike Sidele (ph) from the weather channel. What's your reading?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well we're kind of protected here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Funny now, but not at the time. That is it for us, but we'll be back in a moment with headlines. And following headlines, NEXT@CNN at 5:00 Eastern, at 6:00 Eastern "Lost at Sea" A California diver gets stuck and you may be surprised who comes to his rescue. And then at 7:00 "People in the News" profiles the stars of "Friends." Thanks for joining us. I will be back with the headlines after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired May 2, 2004 - 16:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SUNDAY: Here are the latest developments at this hour.
Free and in stable condition. Military officials say a U.S. contractor Thomas Hamill escaped from his captors today in Iraq. He had been missing since last month when he was taken hostage in Baghdad. Two Iraqis were detained after Hamill led troops to a house where he had been held near Tikrit.

And near Ramadi, a mortar attack today killed six U.S. troops and wounded 30 others. Three more U.S. troops died in other attacks in Iraq today.

The U.S. Joint Chief Chairman General Richard Myers says this former general in Saddam Hussein's Republican guard is not likely to take control of Fallujah, but Myers says General Jassim Mohammed Saleh is being evaluated to lead possibly Iraqi peacekeeping force.

Well you've likely seen the photographs aired last week that prompted international outrage over the treatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers at Baghdads Abu Ghraib Prison. Now more since allegations of abuse are being detailed in an article in the "New Yorker." CNN's Kathleen Koch joins us from the Pentagon with those details -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Betty, the "New Yorker" magazine obtained a just completed internal army investigation of Abu Ghraib Prison that finds that the abuse there was widespread, and this internal investigation also reportedly finds that those six soldiers who are charged now in the case did not act alone, according to the report, the CIA, private contractors, and military intelligence officers helped call the shots at the prison, encouraging the humiliation and mistreatment of prisoners. The journalist who obtained the report says one interrogation had deadly results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEYMOUR HERSH, THE "NEW YORKER:" They killed either civilians, the private guards or the CIA or the military, killed him during an interrogation, they were worried about it, they packed him in ice. They killed him in the evening, they packed him in ice for 24 hours, put him in a body bag and eventually at a certain time, don't forget the prison has a lot of other army units around it, and they didn't want to be seen with a dead body.

So they packed him in ice until the appropriate time, they put him on a trolley, like a hospital gurney, put a fake I.V. into him and they walked out as if he was getting an I.V., walked him out, got him in an ambulance, drove him off and the dumped the body somewhere. That literally happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: The Pentagon is investigating that charge as well as others, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Richard Myers made the rounds of the Sunday morning talk shows today, insisting that those responsible would be brought to justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEF OF STAFF: I'm appalled by the actions of those few as well, that we all know about. That we have seen in the pictures. That is not how the American military acts or should act. And it's a shame that just a handful can besmirch the reputations of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: In a variety of newspaper reports and also in a journal that was kept by one of the soldiers there, both commanding officers and some of those involved say that military officers, or excuse me intelligence officers, told them to conduct these acts in order to soften the prisoners up for questioning, but a senior defense official who I spoke with not long ago says that for any person in the military to believe that such an order to conduct such acts to engage in such behavior was a legal order to be followed is simply preposterous -- Betty.

NGUYEN: CNN Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon. Thank you.

In the Middle East today, a crucial vote, a dreadful attack and a forceful response. Israeli helicopters fired rockets at a building that's home to a Hamas radio station. No word yet on possibility casualties from that air strikes.

It took place just hours after a pregnant woman and her four children were killed near a block of Jewish settlements in Gaza. The family was en route to Israel where the woman planned to lobby against the idea of uprooting such settlements. That proposal is reportedly being voted down by members of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's party today. Exit polls sited by Israel media indicate it's being soundly rejected. Mr. Sharon can still push for a national referendum on the issue.

Well 34 years and four children later, Tom McCabe wants his job back, but there is one small problem he is married. We'll explain why that's a problem.

And "Cracking the DaVinci Code" when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: The Roman Catholic church is suffering from a shortage of priests, some say it's because the church requires all priests to remain celibate. Now a growing number of priests are speaking out against that policy, and among them a former priest who is now married. Our Alina Cho brings us his story from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To many, Tom and Eileen McCabe have the perfect marriage, four grown children, and a quiet life. Thirty-four years, you probably made the right decision.

EILEEN MCCABE, WIFE: I think so.

TOM MCCABE: As I tell Eileen I have no regrets, not one.

CHO: It wasn't easy in the beginning, Tom was a priest so he made a choice, he married Eileen in 1970 only after leaving the priesthood. Only after ten years of serving God.

T. MCCABE: It broke my heart that I would have to leave the job I liked doing the most.

E. MCCABE: When he left I realized he was leaving something very, very special. And I guess I wasn't sure he was going to be happy.

CHO: They are, except Tom would like to be a priest again. The Roman Catholic Church does not allow priests to be married. Church law also says they must be celibate. The Pope has indicated celibacy is a gift to the church and has rejected all calls to reverse policy.

The problem for the Roman Catholic Church is that it is facing a critical shortage of priests. There are 64 million Catholics in the U.S., one in five Americans, and only 45,000 priests to serve them.

REV. THOMAS REESE, EDITOR "AMERICAN MAGAZINE:" If we don't have priests to serve our people, the people are going to go elsewhere. So I think the church has a serious problem.

CHO: Tom McCabe says he's not against priest celibacy. He just wants it to be optional. The church disagrees.

REV. THOMAS LYNCH, ARCHOIDCESE OF NEW YORK: This world that we live in needs the radical witness of celibate clergy.

CHO: Others say that optional celibacy may not be the answer.

REESE: Certainly it is going to be more expensive for parishes, for the people in the pews because you're going to have to support a family.

CHO: Tom McCabe says he would be an asset to the church, years of experience.

T. MCCABE: Yes, but it better happen soon.

CHO: It's the right thing to do he says. If history is any guide, change may be slow to come. Alina Cho, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Well some are debating whether priests should marry, another controversy rages over the novel suggesting that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and had children. That is just one of the provocative ideas that have a growing number of Christians denouncing Dan Brown's book, "The DaVinci Code" especially now that it's bound for the screen, the big screen.

Brown isn't giving any interviews, but among his detractors are the authors of "Cracking the DaVinci Code" James Garlow, who joins us from Kansas City, and Peter Jones in San Diego. Thanks for being here. First off, to both of you, this is a fictional book, so why the fear that people are going to believe it to be true? Mr. Garlow lets start with you.

JAMES GARLOW, COAUTHOR, "CRACKING DAVINCI'S CODE:" The fact is people are believing it. I've encountered many people who have had friends and relatives and loved ones who have read it and they believe it. Unfortunately, they take what is a novel loaded with historical inaccuracies, and they do believe it, and the results is the historical inaccuracies lead them to theological inaccuracies.

NGUYEN: Mr. Jones, do you fear that some six million copies have been sold, that these six million folks believe this fictional book to be true?

PETER JONES, COAUTHOR, "CRACKING DAVINCI'S CODE:" Well Betty we don't want to become killjoys, we think it's well written, but John Grisham and Tom Clancy, Dan Brown is not.

You cannot explain the success of this book on the basis of the great literature. What it is doing, though, is presenting a particular view of the Christian faith that is at odds with the Christian faith, it seems to us, and we need to be able to explain to people why that is.

NGUYEN: So Mr. Garlow, let's talk about those specific areas where you feel the book is misleading.

GARLOW: For one, he makes the case that Constantine, in the year 325, and the council of Nicea there forced a group of bishops, or encouraged a group of bishops, to vote that Jesus was divine, and sort foisted that upon the population. When in realty Jesus was perceived as being divine by his original followers and in the writings in the first and second century. Dan Brown tries to make the case that Jesus wasn't even seen as being divine until the fourth century. That's simply historically inaccurate.

NGUYEN: Mr. Jones how does your book clear up these questions?

JONES: Well we try Betty, to give some answers to the historical questions. I think much of the historical evidence is soundly in favor of the new testament as historical evidence goes, but what we also do is we attempt to uncrack a much bigger code that we feel is present on the pages of Dan Brown's novel, which is a total redefinition of spirituality, of what the Christian faith is, and of who God is.

NGUYEN: The author, Dan Brown, said that he is a Christian, and he says that he welcomes this debate. And I want to read you a quote. He doesn't do any interviews, but we did receive a quote from him, it says, "that the DaVinci Code is a novel and therefore a work of fiction. While the book's characters and their actions are obviously not real. The artwork, architecture, documents, and cecret rituals depicted in this novel all exist. These real elements are interpreted and debated by fictional characters." So he's welcoming this kind of dialogue.

JONES: Well, we welcome it too. As a matter of fact, Betty, we are glad this debate is happening, because you know, so many people are now raising the issues of what it means to be a Christian. And we just want to point out, for viewers who are watching your show and others that there is a specific meaning to the word Christian and Dan Brown is giving a totally different one.

NGUYEN: And speaking of that, he also says, "The dialogue is wonderful. The more vigorously, we debate these important topics the better our understanding of our own spirituality. Controversy and dialogue are healthy for religion as a whole. Religion has only one true enemy, apathy, and passionate debate is a superb antidote." Mr. Garlow you are obviously passionate about making sure folks know fact from fiction.

GARLOW: Well I am. I am actually a pastor of a church in San Diego myself, and I encourage people in our church to read Dan Brown's book, because they'll see right away the historical errors, and will cause them to dig deeper to study themselves, and they'll discover how reliable their new testament is, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John for example. In contrast to the Gnostic writings that Dan Brown refers to so lovingly. They will also do research on such topics as Jesus who he claims to be, the Son of God. Is really divine? And when they do that kind of research, I'm very encouraged at what they're going to find out.

NGUYEN: Mr. Jones, we understand the "DaVinci Code" well that could be hitting the theaters sometime next year, does that cause some concern for you?

JONES: Well, in as much as it does present the totally antithetical view of Christianity for the orthodox view of Christianity, I think the movie will take this particular view to the masses even more than the book.

I don't agree with Brown that the greatest enemy to spirituality is apathy, though I don't like apathy, and I think people should be aware of spirituality, the greatest enemy is false spirituality, and that we need to point out.

NGUYEN: Let's talk quickly about the Mary Magdalene controversy. That has got a lot of people questioning it, Mr. Garlow what do you think?

GARLOW: Well, he builds his entire case for that upon the gospel of Phillip, which is written in 250 A.D., a questionable piece of literature. Now you can either follow something that was written 250 years after the fact or you can follow those writers who were with Jesus closer to his time frame, like 50 A.D., when Paul was writing or the gospels written by 70 A.D., which were people who were actually with Jesus.

There's no biblical evidence at all that Jesus was married, or any kind of a sexual companion to Mary Magdalene, like Dan Brown suggests. He is relying on text much later and considerably less reliability.

NGUYEN: OK. James Garlow and Peter Jones authors of "Cracking the DaVinci Code," we appreciate your time.

GARLOW: Thank you.

JONES: Your very welcome. Good to be with you.

NGUYEN: A question for you, why are Dalmatians the breed we associate with firefighters? Well the answer plus some dogs that have become legends among their fire fighter masters when CNN LIVE SUNDAY continues.

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NGUYEN: For well over a century, they've been a firefighter's best friends. Dalmatians are as much a part of firehouse lore as well as ladders and hoses. Nowhere is that more true then and now. Men in the city of Chicago. There's a new book out documenting the role of dogs that live and serve in Chicago's firehouses. The firefighter's best friends, lives and legends of Chicago's fire housedogs; it offers tales of the unique animals on duties 24/7. It was written by brothers Trevor and Drew Orsinger. Trevor joins now from Chicago and Drew from our Washington bureau. Thanks for being here.

TREVOR ORSINGER, COAUTHOR, "FIREFIGHTERS BEST FRIEND:" Thank you Betty, it is good to be here.

NGUYEN: Well let's talk about the history of this. Dalmatians why was that particular breed picked?

DREW ORSINGER, COAUTHOR, "FIREFIGHTERS BEST FRIEND:" Well Dalmatians are -- come from England back in the early 1700s, and the Dalmatians were initially used in the air stock receipts, you clear the streets for the horses, and specifically the Dalmatian was really adept because of their temperament to the horses and allowed the horses to get closer to the scenes of fires. And that tradition has extended over from England to here today.

NGUYEN: Drew let's talk about the tradition in Chicago. Tell us a little bit about that.

D. ORSINGER: Well, in Chicago, there is really one of the richest histories of firedogs. There aren't too many cities in the United States that can boast the presence of dogs mainly because of the ordinances and regulations that prohibit dogs from living in fires houses, but Chicago still has about 25 dogs working and living in Chicago firehouses today.

NGUYEN: Trevor, you have a lot of history in here, and a lot of stories to tell. Let's start with Felix, one of the dogs that we have a picture, who is climbing a ladder I understand, and a picture that's in the book.

T. ORSINGER: That is right Betty. Felix is the Babe Ruth of Chicago firehouse dog. He was known for rescuing children, rescuing several firefighters. And being just a hero of a dog, he lived in the 1920s, and upon his death, there was an elaborate funeral, kids were let out of school for the day, and accorded him full firehouse honors, and actually 80 years later a statue in his honor still stands in the southern suburbs of Chicago.

NGUYEN: How much do these dogs really help Trevor or are they just mainly there to be a friend?

T. ORSINGER: They're both a friend and a working dog. They are nowadays mostly in charge of security of the firehouse. When an engine gets a run, the dog is the only person left behind at the station and is in charge of making sure that nobody breaks in.

NGUYEN: I can only imagine all the many stories that you have to tell and have seen throughout the years. Drew, let's talk about a particular dog named Sarge?

D. ORSINGER: Sarge was an amazing dog. Sarge was credited with saving the lives of many firefighters. Because as they were in working at the scene of a fire in a burning building, There was a puddle of water that had become electrocuted because of a fallen wire. And a firefighter had noticed that Sarge had stepped into the puddle, and was electrocuted, and the firefighters immediately knew not to go into that puddle of water. As with many of the firedogs in Chicago the fire fighters credit Sarge with saving their lives.

NGUYEN: And we do have a picture that we want to show from Sarge's funeral. Tell us about that.

D. ORSINGER: Sarge, as it stands with many of the dogs in Chicago, there is a cemetery behind all the firehouses in the city. Sarge's funeral was just as well attended as many other of the funerals that were in Chicago. It's just one small indication of how much reverence that these guys feel for the dogs.

NGUYEN: Absolutely. These dogs make a huge difference and I understand Trevor that they also donate blood?

T. ORSINGER: That's correct. There's a dog at engine 103 on the west side of Chicago, the dog's name is Lugnut. He was donated to the house by the Humane Society I believe it was, and in payment, the firefighters every year will bring Lugnut over to the Humane Society, and he will donate blood. So it's his way of giving back to the community.

NGUYEN: Oh absolutely. Drew, let's talk about some of the many stories in the book. Is there one in particular that's your favorite? D. ORSINGER: One of the best, and one of Trevor's favorites is Boots out of Engine 78. Engine 78 is right across the street from Wrigley Field, and it's a classic story where Boots actually was out of the firehouse one day and managed to get into the left field -- actual left field of Wrigley Field. And none of the ushers could catch Boots, and they had to bring over the captain of the firehouse to come over and get him before they took him off to applauding Cubs fans there in Wrigley.

NGUYEN: You both have seemed to do a lot of research on this. Trevor, let's start with you. How did you get interested into this?

T. ORSINGER: This idea was conceived on New Year's Eve of 2000. And we were visiting a friend of ours in the Chicago firehouse; it was actually the oldest working firehouse in the city. We left the firehouse with tales of dogs at that particular house and dogs throughout the city, and we wondered that night if this had ever been done before, and it hadn't. We got our publisher Ray (UNINTELLIGBLE) to get on board, and we started researching it, and that entailed hours and hours of interviewing, museum shopping, and attempting to gain as much information as we could.

NGUYEN: And Drew, have you been able to meet some of the dogs yourself?

D. ORSINGER: Oh, yes. And to be honest it wouldn't be fair without giving credit to all the firefighters in Chicago, both actively working in the city as well as all the retired fire fighters that we talked to. Many of which are now down in Florida retired. This book is really as much a tribute to them as it is to the dogs. It's really a wonderful human-interest story in terms of the relationship that they share with each other.

NGUYEN: Quickly, Trevor, I understand some of the proceeds will go to charity from this book?

T. ORSINGER: That's correct. It's the Illinois Fire and Safety Alliance. And they provide a camp for children who have been victims of fire. It's a two-week camp that is run in the summer. And it's a cause very close to the firefighters' hearts.

NGUYEN: OK Trevor Orsinger and Drew Orsinger as well and we want to tell you the name of the book again, it's "The Fire Fighters Best Friend." Lives and legends of Chicago's firehouse dogs. We thank you both for joining us.

T. ORSINGER: Thank you.

D. ORSINGER: Thank you Betty.

NGUYEN: And we'd like to take a few moments now to poke a little fun at our selves and other news networks with a little help from Jay Leno. He followed President Bush at the podium last night at the annual White House Correspondents Association Dinner in Washington. Leno said one particular aspect of news coverage bothers him.

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JAY LENO, HOST "THE TONIGHT SHOW:" I have cable news on all day, I have them all on, and I must say the reporters do a wonderful job covering the war, they do wonderful job covering the campaign. But why do reporters feel they have to cover hurricanes? You cannot cover hurricanes? Take a look.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The winds right now are well over 70 miles an hour. That's my best guess. I don't have any instruments to measure them right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm really fighting to stay upright right now. The storm really testing me and even taking down my pants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Allow me to introduce to you Mike Sidele (ph) from the weather channel. What's your reading?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well we're kind of protected here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Funny now, but not at the time. That is it for us, but we'll be back in a moment with headlines. And following headlines, NEXT@CNN at 5:00 Eastern, at 6:00 Eastern "Lost at Sea" A California diver gets stuck and you may be surprised who comes to his rescue. And then at 7:00 "People in the News" profiles the stars of "Friends." Thanks for joining us. I will be back with the headlines after a quick break.

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