Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Najaf Insurgents Launch Heavy Attack; Commander Defends Troops in Prisoner Abuse Case
Aired May 03, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, a new flash point in Iraq. Insurgents in Najaf have launched their heaviest attack so far on American troops. I'll talk with author and professor Rashid Khalidi about the prospects for an end to the violence.
The prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. The soldiers' commander says it's unfair to blame her troops.
BRIG. GEN. JANIS KARPINSKI, COMMANDER, 800TH MILITARY POLICE BRIGADE: I do know with almost absolute confidence that they didn't wake up one day and decide to do this.
DOBBS: Tonight, in my commentary, putting perspective un- American behavior and the greater affront to Arab and American sensibilities.
A small, but growing number of American business leaders say companies that export American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets are making a big mistake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are losing to others for a short-term gain and a long-term loss.
DOBBS: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce says exporting America is good for the American economy and good for American jobs. The Chamber's CEO, Tom Donohue is my guest.
And record heat in California, wildfires burning more than 2,000 acres. Forestry officials say this summer's fire season could be the worst ever.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, May 3. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Iraqi insurgents today launched the heaviest attacks against American troops in Najaf since the soldiers replaced Spanish troops in that city last month. American troops said they killed as many as 20 Shiite gunmen loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. No Americans were killed or wounded.
Jane Arraf has the report from Najaf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The most intense attack by Muqtada al-Sadr's militia since U.S. forces moved into this base in Najaf three weeks ago. One mortar round hit this abandoned hospital. The only occupants were the dead, left in the morgue here after the Mahdi Army overran it last month.
LT. COL. PAT WHITE, 2ND BATTALION, 37TH REGIMENT: We've had about 30 mortar rounds during the attack in various locations in the city coming in at us. And then, of course, everybody's grabbed their AK and jumped up on the roof to fire at us as well.
ARRAF: The problem for U.S. Army soldiers in the middle of a crowded Shia city was firing back.
COL. BRADY MAY, 2ND BATTALION, 37TH REGIMENT: The particular position we're in right now is the central part of the city. And what you have is the holy sites essentially on either flank of us. And we've been very careful to avoid contact inside the holy sites out of respect for religion.
ARRAF: The Army didn't use its artillery or its attack helicopters. These two Apaches took fire from rocket-propelled grenades. The Army says they returned safely to base.
(on camera): U.S. military officials say firing has come from essentially all directions around this U.S. base. They say they've even pinpointed mortar rounds coming from the courtyard of a mosque in Kufa. They say they did not fire back.
(voice-over): For hours, Salvadoran snipers working with the United States fired from the perimeter. The Army used only small-arms and tank-mounted weapons. Workers reinforced the building housing a handful of civilian coalition officials who have stayed here under daily attack since Sadr seized Najaf and Kufa in April.
PHIL KOSNETT, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Our union is fond of saying that more American ambassadors have died in action than American generals since the end of World War II. There's more to being a modern American diplomat than conference tables and cocktail parties.
ARRAF: With the constant attacks, it seems unlikely coalition officials will be sitting around a conference table discussing the withdrawal of militia forces anytime soon.
Jane Arraf, CNN, Najaf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Fallujah, the Iraqi general put in charge of the Fallujah Brigade has been replaced only three days after the U.S. military put him in charge. The new general in charge is Mohammed Abdul Latif, a former military intelligence officer in Saddam Hussein's army. The U.S. military replaced General Jassim Mohammed Saleh, who was a member of Hussein's Republican Guard.
It turns out the victims of Saddam Hussein's regime were outraged with Saleh's appointment in the first place because they said he was too closely tied to the former dictator. No word whether the same people are equally as outraged that many members of the new Fallujah Brigade apparently fought against U.S. forces trying to free the city of insurgents.
Escaped hostage Thomas Hamill today arrived in Ramstein Air Base in Germany. Hamill is receiving medical treatment for a gunshot wound in his right arm before he flies home. Hamill was found by soldiers in the 1st Infantry Division near Balad north of Baghdad. Hamill escaped when he heard an Army patrol near the farmhouse where he was being held prisoner. Hamill was captured three weeks ago when insurgents ambushed his convoy.
The U.S. Army today said it has reprimanded six soldiers, admonished another for abusing Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. Six other American soldiers all military policemen face criminal charges. The White House said President Bush today called Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to make certain all of the soldiers involved in the scandal are punished.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Pentagon today insisted that it began investigating the allegations of prisoner abuse back in January immediately after some of these pictures surfaced. They were turned over, they say, by a concerned is soldier.
So far, six soldiers, including some officers, have been reprimand, effectively ending their military careers. And six others, including some military police seen in the photographs, are now facing court-martial on criminal charges. But according to their lawyers and in fact one of the generals who is in charge of the prison, those military police were following orders from military interrogators or, in some cases, the civilians they hired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARPINSKI: One of the most despicable aspects of those pictures, those faces on those soldiers, those soldiers who belong to one of my M.P. companies, absolutely. I don't know how they do this. I don't know how they allowed these activities to get so out of control, but I do know, with almost absolute confidence, that they didn't wake up one day and decide to do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, in a classified Army investigation, General Karpinski, seen there, was also faulted for giving too much authority to the military intelligence officers. And today, again, the U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad said whatever the investigation finds about the role of military intelligence or contractors, there's no excuse for some of the activity depicted in those photographs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: I don't know if we should be focusing on specific organizations as much as individual conduct that we saw in those photos. I'm not sure what organization those people were from, but I can tell you that what they were doing in those photos on is absolutely wrong, deplorable, and they should be investigated and prosecuted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, unlike some of the high-profile cases we've seen recently, like for instance out of Chaplain Yee, who was charged with various offenses that eventually didn't stand up in court, the investigation of these cases has been held very close. In fact, none of the names have been officially released, nor the specific charges or the results of the investigation that led to those charges to date.
In fact, so far, General Myers, the Joint Chiefs chairman and Donald Rumsfeld, defense secretary, insist they haven't read this classified report, nor been briefed on it. And, in fact, General Myers approached "60 Minutes" who first aired these pictures and asked them to hold them for some period of time because of his fear that these images might provoke an anti-U.S. backlash in an area where already the U.S. is dealing with a lot of violence -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkably here, Jamie, General Karpinski is out talking to the media after reassignment, suggestions by General Kimmitt that it's not important which organization the soldiers, all of them military police at this point, were working for. At the same time, this investigation touching upon whether military intelligence as we understand it had some role in all of this. What more can you tell us about that?
MCINTYRE: Well, interestingly, there are five separate investigations that have been going on. The most recent one was started just 10 days ago. That's the one looking at the role of military intelligence and also the role of what private contractors, mostly former intelligence or former military people employed by the U.S. government, what role they might have played.
And of course, it's particularly problematic when you have American contractors doing this kind of work, because they don't fall under military justice. They don't fall under Iraqi justice. They do fall under U.S. law. But it's very murky about how they will be prosecuted and how they would be brought to justice and what role they should play. That's one of the things, the disturbing questions they're looking at now.
DOBBS: Indeed. Thank you very much, Jamie -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe private security firms, instead of military intelligence, the FBI and the CIA should be interrogating prisoners of war, yes or no? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Also later here, I've be sharing some of my thoughts about the prisoner abuse scandal and the implications for U.S. policy in the Middle East. I'll also be talking with professor and author Rashid Khalidi about the transfer of power in Iraq on June 30, the role of the United States in the Middle East, and the future of the insurgency confronting the U.S. forces in Iraq.
In "America Votes" tonight, President Bush has launched a bus tour in the Midwest. Senator John Kerry has stepped up his advertising. We'll have the report for you on the presidential campaign.
And a day of mourning for Pat Tillman, former NFL player, soldier, killed in the line of duty in combat in Afghanistan.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Two days, two battleground states. President Bush today kicked off his bus tour across Michigan and Ohio. That's right, bus tour. While it may be difficult for many of us to imagine President Bush on a bus, you may remember this is an election year, after all.
Dana Bash is traveling with the president tonight and joins us from Kalamazoo, Michigan -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, of course, the election is six months away and the fact that the president is on a bus tour here in Michigan and then again tomorrow in Ohio is a good indicator of just how tight the polls show he is with John Kerry in these very important state that really could make or break the election.
Now, the Bush campaign in 2000, really, they were optimistic about winning Michigan. They thought they were going to well here, but take a look at what happened in 2000. Al Gore got 51 percent and the president got just 46 percent. So the Bush campaign has been working very hard here to beef up its grassroots campaign. And they're making it very clear, there's a very specific reason the president is here for his very first trip.
But the problem they do acknowledge is that the biggest issue to voters here in Michigan could be one of the president's biggest liabilities, and that is, of course, unemployment. This state has lost about 300,000 jobs since Mr. Bush has been in office. And take a look at these figures. In 2000, the unemployment rate for the year was about 3.5 percent. Now, or at least the last month it was taken here, 6.9 percent. So it's almost doubled. And that's an issue that the president certainly had to address when he was going through the state.
First, he was in Niles, Michigan, in the southwest part of the state, and now here in Kalamazoo. He said he understands, while he has an optimistic message about the economy, people here in Michigan are hurting. But, as any good incumbent would, his message was that his challenger would make things worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have got six more months to go in the campaign and he's easily over $1 trillion in new promises. And so the question that I ask is, how is he going to pay for it? And he said, of course, by taxing the rich. There's not enough money to tax the rich to pay for the new promises he's made. So guess who he is going to tax? He's going to tax you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, the president did acknowledge here that he thinks that John Kerry is going to be a difficult opponent and it is going to be a tough race, but he also, in terms of the attempt by the Bush campaign to try to make John Kerry into somebody who says one thing one day and something else the next mentioned a story that John Kerry told here in Michigan, that he has an SUV.
Later, when he was asked about it, he had said that his family in fact has an SUV, not necessarily him. So the president was trying to poke fun or tweak John Kerry in a message that he thinks that people here in Michigan will understand him, talking about an SUV -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash reporting from Kalamazoo, Michigan, with the president. And we want to be clear. A graphic in the report that Dana just filed, it showed 2003, an unemployment of approximate 3.5. That was actually supposed to say, the year 2000, 3.5, and 204, 8.9 percent unemployment in the state of Michigan.
Democratic presidential hopeful Senator John Kerry today unveiled the biggest single ad buy in presidential politics ever, $25 million. President Bush has spent more than $60 million on television and radio since early March. But Senator Kerry released the two ads in 19 key states today. Kerry's campaign manager says the latest set of ads tell the American people who John Kerry is, what he stands for.
And the apparently candidate needs a boost because he's still essentially tied with President Bush in national polls.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: April seemed to be a month of bad news for President Bush: an insurrection in Iraq with mounting U.S. casualties, dramatic testimony at the 9/11 commission hearings, rising gas prices. Then the polls came out and showed what? The national race still essentially a tie. No momentum for John Kerry. Kerry's people have an explanation.
STEPHANIE CUTTER, KERRY CAMPAIGN PRESS SECRETARY: The Bush- Cheney campaign has spent $60 million in ads before we've even started.
SCHNEIDER: Some Democrats say don't pay too much attention to the national polls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at the national polls, they don't tell the whole story. You've got to look at the states, you've got to look at the battleground states in general.
SCHNEIDER: OK. Let's do that. In the past month, non-partisan polls have come out in 10 battleground states. Among them, four battleground states Bush won in 2000 where polls show him still ahead: Arizona, Arkansas, Florida and New Hampshire. But in every case, by small statistically insignificant margins.
The latest poll in Florida, for example, shows Bush leading Kerry by one whole point. In Florida, that's a landslide. Here are two battleground states, Iowa and Michigan, that Gore won in 2000, where the latest polls show Kerry ahead in each case by one point. Have any states shifted since 2000?
Gore carried New Mexico, Oregon and Pennsylvania last time. Now the polls show Bush slightly ahead in all three. Plus, New Jersey, which is not supposed to be a battleground state. Gore beat Bush by 16 points in New Jersey. Now, Bush is ahead.
Have any states shifted the other way, from Bush to Kerry? Maybe one, Wisconsin. But the latest Wisconsin polls are inconsistent. One shows Kerry ahead, one shows Bush ahead.
Is there any good news for Kerry in the battleground states? Actually, yes. In every state polled, Bush is getting less support than he got in 2000. In Florida, for instance, Bush got 49 percent of the vote in 2000. He's getting 46 percent in the polls now.
In Pennsylvania, where Bush is running slightly ahead of Kerry, he's polling lower than in 2000. Overall, Bush looks weaker than he was in 2000. But Kerry is not doing as well as Gore.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: By responding quickly to the Republican attacks, Kerry is showing he's no Michael Dukakis, but at same time he's also allowing the Republicans to control the agenda -- Lou.
DOBBS: This $25 million buy record one-time buy, Bill, is that slated specifically to counteract the weakness that you've shown there?
SCHNEIDER: Absolutely. It's slated to reintroduce and in many cases just introduce Kerry to lots of voters. It is going to show in those battleground states all over the country, because the idea is, Bush defining Kerry as a flip-flopper and a waffler and a liberal. And he wants to define himself. And he's spending $25 million to do it. So the view is, he better do this fast before it's too late.
DOBBS: Six months to go. That isn't too late, is it?
SCHNEIDER: I don't think so. The question is, how many people are paying attention six months before Election Day? DOBBS: Bill, Schneider, thank you.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
DOBBS: When we continue, putting perspective un-American behavior in Iraq. I'll share my views with you on the matter in my commentary.
And Columbia University Professor Rashid Khalidi says the United States had no intention of creating an independent Iraqi government. He is my guest next.
And two American companies that have learned firsthand why exporting American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets isn't good business. And I'll be joined by Tom Donohue, the CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, who says outsourcing is good business. He is my guest as well tonight.
Also ahead, remembering one of the heroes of the war on terror, a memorial service tonight for former NFL star Pat Tillman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pat, Kevin made the ultimate commitment and sacrifice. They left behind...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, now says he regrets saying that President Bush was -- quote -- "paying no attention to terrorism" -- end quote -- in a speech he made six months before September 11.
Bremer says his criticism of the president in February of 2000 was what he now calls unfair. Bremer said President Bush had just been sworn into office. The president could not, he says, be held responsible for the government's failure to deal with terrorism over the previous seven months.
The United States slated to hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis at the end of June. It is still far from clear how much power the new interim Iraqi government will have. My guest tonight says the United States must let the Iraqis govern themselves after June 30 or the insurgency will continue.
Rashid Khalidi is director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University, professor of Arab studies, the author of "Resurrecting Empire," and joins us now.
Good to have you with us, Professor.
RASHID KHALIDI, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Pleasure, Lou.
DOBBS: The idea that the United States had no idea of turning over power to the Iraqis, you really believe that.
KHALIDI: Well, either they had no idea what Iraq was like and projected things like permanent American bases, American control of Iraqi oil, getting Iraqis to recognize Israel, or they never did intend to put in anything more than a puppet government in.
DOBBS: Is there any example in the region that would suggest to you that they're there would be that kind of naivete or that kind of duplicity?
KHALIDI: Well, I don't think that, if we look carefully at the way the Bush administration went about this, they had much a sense of history.
I try and show in the book that the experience of lesser powers in the Middle East has been a rocky one and that clearly in Washington they were not looking at that or I think at the reality of Iraq. So at least naivete, perhaps duplicity.
DOBBS: A quote in your book that you just mentioned: "By invading, occupying and imposing a new regime on Iraq, the United States may be stepping intentionally or not into the boots of the old Western colonial powers and may be doing so in a region that concluded a lengthy struggle to expel those hated colonial occupations."
You really see a parallel between -- obviously the reference is primarily to the British, first of all, and to the French.
KHALIDI: And to the French.
DOBBS: There is nothing in U.S. history that suggests a colonial imperial imperative. So why would you draw this?
KHALIDI: Nothing in the Middle East. For the Philippines, Central America, perhaps.
The reason is partly because this is the way Iraqis are going to perceive it. Their modern history has been shaped and Middle Easterners by these foreign colonial occupations, which only ended in the '60s. The second reason is that they are clearly doing things that most Iraqis don't want them to do. Taking over the Iraqi oil industry, privatizing the Iraqi economy, is something that I don't think Iraqis would voluntarily ask to have happen.
DOBBS: Do you think we have a sense, quite frankly, as to what the Iraqis, as we speak broadly, of the 25 million people, really want?
KHALIDI: I think most Iraqis now clearly do not want the United States to be there.
DOBBS: That tells us what they don't want.
KHALIDI: Right.
DOBBS: Do we have a sense of what they do want? KHALIDI: I think they probably want democracy.
DOBBS: You do?
KHALIDI: I do believe that, yes.
DOBBS: You know that puts you in something of a minority amongst Arabists and experts in the region.
KHALIDI: Well, some people underestimate Arabs and Middle Easterners. I think they really do have strong democratic aspirations.
DOBBS: Well, these would be the Arab experts and the Middle East experts I'm referring to. So you think your colleagues are underestimating them?
KHALIDI: Perhaps some of them do, yes.
DOBBS: Well, that's a very hopeful statement you just made, that they do want democracy. Is it your sense, then, that the United States can successfully hand over power on June 30, either to the existing Iraqi Governing Council or to the interim government that would be established by Brahimi at United Nations?
KHALIDI: The interim -- this Governing Council is discredited in Iraq. Most of these people are seen as stooges by most Iraqis. Hopefully, Brahimi will begin a process where Iraqis can choose their own government. For 13 months, no important decisions in Iraq has been made by Iraqis. And that's far too long, I think.
DOBBS: Is it your judgment that the so-called insurgency and the obvious terrorism on the part of some will end with a handover if the United Nations can put together a rational interim government and then prepare for elections in January of 2005?
KHALIDI: Unfortunately, I don't think the terrorism will end.
I think the insurgency will. I think it's directed at the U.S. occupation. And if it is clear that United States is leaving, will not try and keep bases there, which the Iraqis definitely not do not want, and will not try and keep control of Iraq, I actually do believe that the insurgency will die down.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Professor. As you look at what's happening in Iraq, why has there not be been a greater sense of responsibility on the part of Arab states of the region to be supportive, to be engaged in providing for a stable Iraq? The United Nations, until August, when their offices were attacked, were engaged in Iraq. They withdrew. Do you fear, for example, that the United Nations once again, coming in under new auspices, will once again, if you will, cut and run?
KHALIDI: Well, I don't know what the United Nations will do. I think terrorism directed at the U.N. might lead to that. Hopefully not. One reason that regional countries and other countries have not been involved is, they were not asked by the United States. In fact, they were dismissed in a very callous way by the Bush administration. They were told they were not needed. The United States would do as it pleased and would bring along whoever who wanted to come along on American terms. That is why...
DOBBS: But, now, that's a broad statement, Professor. You really know what the United States did with 22 Arab states?
KHALIDI: Well, not just Arab states, country like Turkey, countries like Iran.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: The 22 Arab states in the region.
KHALIDI: A number of Arab states supported the American intervention. Most did not, largely I think because they felt the United States would not consulting them, largely because I think they felt the United States was doing these things without paying attention to facts we now know to be true, no weapons, no link between this region and terrorism, no particular danger by Iraq to even its closest neighbors.
So most countries in the region simply didn't believe the American rationale.
DOBBS: And the import of the way in which the United States turns over sovereignty to the region itself to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
KHALIDI: Well, let's hope sovereignty will eventually be turned over.
What's going to happen on June 30 is not the turnover -- handover of sovereignty. General Sanchez will control everything in Iraq and the American ambassador will probably make most decisions but when it happens, hopefully soon, I hope that we'll have a positive impact on the Palestine/Israeli conflict.
DOBBS: We thank you very much for being here. Come back soon and you've given us a glimmer of hope.
KHALIDI: I hope so.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, professor.
KHALIDI: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll tonight. The question, do you believe private security firms instead of military intelligence, the FBI and the CIA should be interrogating prisoners of war? Yes or no, cast your vote at CNN.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast. I'd like to share a few of my thoughts about the treatment of Iraqi prisoners. Like all Americans I'm sickened by the abuse of Iraqis held in Abu Ghraib prison. It doesn't really matter that only a relatively small number of U.S. army military police were involved in such disgusting unAmerican behavior. It is inexcusable, an affront to all our military serving in Iraq with courage and distinction.
And just as we take great pride in the accomplishments and the service of our military, all of us must accept the shame of even a few who disgrace the uniform and this country. In my opinion, the commander-in-chief should be the first to apologize to the Iraqis and to the 130,000 men and women who serve this country in Iraq. And in my opinion, we should apologize not as some suggest because these few soldiers offended Arab and Muslim, cultural and religious values. We do not require Islamic scholars or experts to guide our behavior in Iraq or for that matter anywhere in the world.
Their time is better spent counseling those terrorists and insurgents who attacked Americans, who committed atrocities against four Americans outside Fallujah and who kill innocent women and children in the name of their cause in Iraq.
No, we should apologize because those few soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison offended American values of decency, fairness and propriety. Those are the values, after all, that underline our democracy. A democracy we seek to have the Iraqis emulate. An apology is definitely in order.
A day of mourning and remembrance in California today for one of the heroes killed in action defending this country. Former NFL player Pat Tillman was killed in action last month in Afghanistan. And tonight hundreds are gathered to remember him. Ted Rowlands is at his post in San Jose, California -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, actually more than 3,000 people ended up showing up to this public memorial service which started about a half an hour ago. The first lady of California, Maria Shriver is addressing that crowd of family, friends and acquaintances of Tillman and people that were simply moved by his story. Arizona Senator John McCain is scheduled to speak next at this ceremony.
Tillman, of course, everybody is familiar with the story, he turned his back on an NFL career. Said no to the fame and fortune of playing professional football after the 9/11 attacks and he joined the army. Now Senator John McCain is taking the stage and he is addressing this crowd as well. Tillman was in the lead group of two ranger units in Afghanistan on April 22 when the second group of rangers came under fire. Tillman then turned around, turned his group around to go back and help his fellow rangers. He was the only one to die in that battle. He was awarded the silver star by the Pentagon last week for bravery on the battlefield.
It's unclear what Pat Tillman would think about all of this attention, Lou, considering that he did absolutely no interviews when he decided to join the army and leave the NFL. He was acutely aware of the fact that he was just one of thousands of men and women that were putting their life on the line to defend our country, that type of attitude, of course, is why so many people here are here today in his hometown of San Jose to pay tribute -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ted, thank you very much. Ted Rowlands.
Still ahead here tonight, exporting America. The CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce wants to block efforts to protect American jobs. Tom Donohue is our guest and two more American companies have learned the hard way that exporting America to the cheap foreign labor markets doesn't always pay.
And then the devastating impact that the exporting of America has on our older workers.
And an early start to the brushfire season has officials in California and around the western states concerned that this could be the worst wildfire season ever. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported on this show many reasons why exporting American work to cheaper foreign labor markets is objectionable and in point of fact often doesn't pay. Tonight we hear from two CEOs who tried outsourcing jobs to those cheap foreign labor markets and learned for themselves that exporting America isn't always good for business. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It may not look like much, but inside this door is a technology services company that does work for more than 20 Fortune 500 companies and the U.S. government. It's the headquarters of ASR International. On first impression, ASR's CEO Rao Anumolu might seem just like the kind of CEO you'd expect to outsource. He's Indian born. And he tried offshoring, but found the approach short- sighted.
RAO ANUMOLU, ASR INTERNATIONAL: What American business is doing is they're losing to others for a short-term gain on a long-term loss.
TUCKER: For him, reversing the trend is also a social responsibility.
ANUMOLU: I came to this country 35 years back. My children are born here. I live here. I want to live here. I want to do the right things. Not only for me, my family but the society in which I live in.
TUCKER: To help narrow the higher cost of workers here in the United States, ASR's corporate headquarters is modest and some of its 500 workers are employed in lower cost states like Arizona and Utah.
ANUMOLU: Having the job done by local professionals at local sites is done in America, with our workers here. They are citizens and they pay taxes here. They work here. They live here, they produce here and it is a win-win for everybody. TUCKER: The way Rao puts it companies in the United States need to look before sending jobs overseas. At Bladelogic based in Walter, Massachusetts the CEO couldn't agree more.
When we looked at deploying resource in India we found that actually a competive (ph) advantage was mitigated. We found that even if there was a cost advantage of 3x in India, there was a productivity advantage of 6x here in the U.S.
TUCKER: So whether it's done as an act of social responsibility or for purely capitalistic reasons, keeping work here at home is working for these companies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: What each company has learned is not only can higher cost be offset by strong management, but the quality of the American workforce creates their advantage -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Bill, as you know, not everybody agrees with that assessment. Appreciate it. My next guest is amongst those who does not agree with that assessment. In fact he says outsourcing is good for the American economy and American jobs. Tom Donohue is the president and the CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, an outspoken opponent of legislation that would block the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Tom Donohue also support the Bush administration's decision not to investigate Chinese labor violations and join us tonight. Good to have you with us, Tom.
The idea, and the chamber has done some extensive research. The idea that now 35 states out of some 40 who are in point of fact outsourcing taxpayer-funded jobs overseas, 35 of them now have legislation in front of them to stop it. You're working very hard to block that. You've been successful in an amazing number of cases. Why are you working so hard to stop that?
TOM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT & CEO, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Well, because it would be a mistake and when we went to those states and provided the information that's contained in our report which we have already given you a cope of.
DOBBS: Right.
DONOHUE: People realize that there's $60 billion more of service work that is in insourced to the United States than is outsourced and many of these states have found out that they have the jobs. The other thing the states have found out, Lou, you know what the greatest outsourcing in the United States is? It's from one state to the another. The economic development people are always trying to go to another state to steal a company and a lot of jobs and bring it to their state and we've seen a migration from the north and east and the northeast to the south and the southwest. That's the real outsourcing that are unseating a lot of jobs.
DOBBS: Correct me if I've got this all wrong. Now the Chamber of Commerce and other proponents of outsourcing have not only decided to equate the outsourcing of jobs purely for wage price levels to cheap foreign labor markets...
DONOHUE: It's not purely.
DOBBS: If you allow me to finish.
DONOHUE: I always have to make sure.
DOBBS: We'll take turns.
DONOHUE: OK.
DOBBS: That's the way we'll do this.
Outsourcing purely for wage level is to take place. And there's something called insourcing now is the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) influence to that, right?
DONOHUE: Yes.
DOBBS: Insource coming we used to call foreign and direct investment. And secondly now we're equating the activity, the competitive activity within the domestic market to outsourcing to cheap foreign labor markets.
DONOHUE: You've asked three questions.
DOBBS: No, I've asked two.
DONOHUE: Let me take the issue, the domestic issue. That's when you go to the northeast and the Midwest states like Ohio and Michigan and somebody said all of the jobs have gone away. Many of them have gone to the south and the southwest. The second issue, people don't outsource just for price. They outsource for confidence and for skill. And the insource issue I'm talking about comes in two forms. Number one, they're the absolute service, when people come here to buy services and get jobs done here whether it's finance, ill's labor, it's clerical, whatever it is, and that's $60 billion a year more than we outsourced. The third issue goes on the question of why do people outsource and why do we support it? First of all, I was just there and then you go in those places and it's full of American products, but the fundamental issue.
DOBBS: Like what?
DONOHUE: Like computers, copiers, all kind of service, it's just amazing. American products all over.
DOBBS: All of them made right here in America, shipped over there.
DONOHUE: Some of them made right here in America.
DOBBS: What percentage would say?
DONOHUE: All of the intellectual property at home here and the profit's coming here. Last sentence. The big fundamental issue that we need to understand is we are short of skills in this country. Five years from now we'll have 10 million skilled jobs and we haven't got the people to fill.
DOBBS: Help me out here.
(CROSSTALK)
DONOHUE: I'll do the best I can.
DOBBS: Because, I listened to that and it's great and we have a huge trade deficit. We've got a huge trading deficit all around. We're a debter nation, we're importing capital and I keep hearing from American multinational CEOs, that they've got to be competitive. How much more competitiveness can this country afford if you're running a half trillion dollar current account deficit every year if we to continue to have to import hundreds of billions of dollars of capital. If we have a 3 trillion, I mean, what would we like to do?
Would we like to be compete and have their 3 trillion in trade debt? Have 9 trillion in trade debt. Where do we get competitive.
DONOHUE: I hear from the Germans and the French all of the time about the current account deficit which is a much smaller percentage than theirs. Our economy -- our economy is a $12.5 trillion economy. As a percentage of their economy our deficits are smaller than France and Germany. The issue here is that 95 percent of the people we want to set anything to live somewhere else in the world.
DOBBS: Well, you know, I'm running a business because we're running out of business.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But if I keep selling something, and I keep coming up with half trillion a year short, how much more do I have to sell to get even.
DONOHUE: Oh, I'm talking about the raid deficit now. We are the largest exports in the world. We sell more stuff overseas, create 30 percent of the domestic jobs doing that.
DOBBS: Wait a minute, isn't it a little bit like hanging if it weren't for the honor of the thing I could get a little offended?
DONOHUE: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. First of all, we're the largest exporters. We're also the largest consumer economy in the world. And for the great portion of our history, for 200 some odd years, we have had trade deficits, because we are the largest consumers. Because we look forward now, you see for 50 years we've been telling all these country, you ought to run your government this way. You ought to run your economy this way and they are doing it. And of course, it makes you mad and it makes other people mad because they're getting competitive.
DOBBS: It doesn't make me mad at all. It's the way we run this country that makes me mad. DONOHUE: I see. The bottom line is we still have the greatest economy in the world. We still create -- we have more jobs in the United States than we have had in anytime in our history. Our unemployment is 5.7 or 5.2, where ever you happen to be in the country, is the average of the last three decades.
DOBBS: Let's talk about this straight up. One, we're not outsourcing because we can't find the talent here. We're outsourcing because of the Mackenzie study verifies it, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will verify it, because if's cheaper expect if we're not doing on that basis, I'd love -- we got over 600 companies right now, it's growing rapidly, of people who can't find the talent in this country, then shame on you guys. Because...
DONOHUE: No shame on us. Shame on the education system.
DOBBS: And shame on you because you haven't been a very impressive stake holder representative because in your community, what are you doing for education, what you're permit in the political system, with your wealth and your power and your influence with public education is inexcusable.
DONOHUE: I would like to thank the American business community to run the public education system.
DOBBS: I didn't say run it. I said influence it.
DONOHUE: Or influence it. When you and I started going to school, first-generation college people wanted to be engineers and scientist. Now we're a little more mature and a little more comfortable nation. We have a tenth of the people studying engineering, science, mathematics in the United States.
DOBBS: Why?
DONOHUE: Because people are very comfortable and that's hard stuff and a half of them are foreign students and a half of the faculty, are foreign faculty. We have a serious problem in this country on where we get our skills.
DOBBS: We're starting to come together. Now we're talking about education.
DONOHUE: This we can work on it.
DOBBS: We can work on lots of things and business has to start working on preserving jobs for the middle class American who has built the companies that you represent. This -- don't you agree with -- I love the comment by Carly Fiorina that no American has a god-given right to job. Doesn't that burn you up if you're a CEO, a member of your organization would say something like. Because if the American doesn't have the God given right, who in the world does.
DONOHUE: I'm not sure about God given rights. We didn't come here to talk about theology. But I think every American...
DOBBS: I'm quoting one of your CEO's.
DONOHUE: I understand, I'm not talking theology. Every American...
DOBBS: It sounded like a lot like politics on economic.
DONOHUE: Am I ducking this question well enough for you?
DOBBS: You're trying. Am I working hard enough back?
DONOHUE: Yes, you are. Every American as the opportunity to get the skills together to go out and have a decent job. Anywhere in the world. Anywhere in the world where more immigrants have come over the history of modern time and found opportunity and found jobs. And all during that time when we were outsourcing some number of things and we will continue to.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: According to one study, 50 percent more jobs will be going out of this country.
DONOHUE: Of course, they will.
DOBBS: Excuse me, will be outsourced to cheap foreign labor markets, next year, than this. The projections are...
DONOHUE: I won't argue with you. So -- So, instead of 250,000 jobs it will be 500,000...
DOBBS: Have you polled your membership?
DONOHUE: Of course, I have.
DOBBS: All right, how many.
DONOHUE: I don't know a total number. And let me tell you...
DOBBS: You said 250, that's the number.
DONOHUE: It is no way double that.
DOBBS: OK, let's take no way double that. Project that up against the University of California Berkeley study and find out...
DONOHUE: I don't believe anything University of California Berkeley says. No, only I'm giving you a bad time.
DOBBS: You know, at this point, it is ridiculous that our government, our Chamber of Commerce, the business roundtable don't know the number of jobs that have been outsourced.
DONOHUE: You were ever on a farm?
DOBBS: I was, yes.
DONOHUE: You know how to pump the pump? You put a little water
(CROSSTALK)
DONOHUE: Priming. The jobs that we send overseas are nothing more than priming, to getting the markets, and I agree to get some...
DOBBS: Have you heard about the well returning dry. When you kill American jobs, you could be killing the market you are try to preserve.
DONOHUE: I'm sure the well doesn't run dry.
DOBBS: And I'm sure there are a lot of hard-working Americans out there are glad to hear about your new commitment.
DONOHUE: I hope there are a lot of hard-working families that want us to work on the education thing together. That's going to be your new theme, I hope.
DOBBS: It has been one of my themes and has been for more than a year. Tom Donohue.
DONOHUE: Thank you. Always good to gee you.
DOBBS: Good to see you.
Still ahead, flames lead to evacuations in California. The state's wildfire season is coming on strong and it is coming early and that is true throughout much of the west. We'll have that story and the details next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In California wildfires have forced officials to evacuate hundreds of homes. Firefighters are battling blazes already across southern California. This is only the first day of what could be another devastating brushfire season for many of the western states.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): Another day of record-high temperatures in southern California. And that means the fire season has arrived almost a month early.
CHIEF MILT DAVIES, NORTH COUNTY FIRE DEPT.: Remember, this is like late April or the 1st of May. This is August, September kind of stuff we're seeing right now.
DOBBS: Three fires broke out in southern California over the weekend, scorching more than 2,000 acres on the Camp Pendleton Marine Base and in two areas of Riverside County. 31 cities in southern California have record-high temperatures. Last year, California saw its worst fire season in more than 70 years, one fire alone burned almost 300,000 acres. Officials worry this year could be just as bad.
CAPT. JIM WRIGHT, CALIF. DEPT. OF FORESTRY: The fuel conditions, the weather conditions were very similar last year as they are now and there is still a lot of areas that have been affected by prolonged drought in southern California that we're very concerned about. We could be walking into a replay of last year.
DOBBS: As bad as that was the wildfire outlook for much of the west and southwestern Alaska is significantly worse than a year ago.
ANN CAMP, YALE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY AND ENVIRON. STUDIES: In a year where you have high temperatures and extreme drought, this is setting up a situation where fires are going to create a lot of damage. They're going to burn individual homes and even communities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: California fire officials say that while this fire season may be off to an early alarming start at least this year their firefighters are more prepared to respond than a year ago.
When we continue another guilty verdict for corporate America. A star investment banker convicted of obstructing justice. We'll have the story for you next. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks rose on Wall Street today. The Dow up more than 88 points. The Nasdaq up 18 1/2 points, a little more. The S&P 500 up more than 10 points. Christine Romans with the story now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, again an up day on low volume. Oil stocks particularly strong today that's because crude oil prices hit a 13-year high. A new low for Frank Quattrone. His first trial ended in a hung jury. Today a jury convicted him of obstruction of justice and witness tampering. He's the former star investment banker at Credit Suisse First Boston.
And in the politics of economics, Warren Buffett has joined the John Kerry bandwagon. Buffett warned that this country as well cannot persist in running a record trade deficit. He said ballooning trade imbalances could at some point cause severe disruptions in the financial markets.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Christine. Just ahead, the results of our poll. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll. 95 percent of you say you don't believe private security firms instead of military intelligence, the FBI, CIA, should be interrogating prisoners of war. Please join us tomorrow here. Ambassador Joe Wilson will be here to talk about his new book and will be joined by Congressman Luis Gutierrez on immigration reform. From all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 3, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, a new flash point in Iraq. Insurgents in Najaf have launched their heaviest attack so far on American troops. I'll talk with author and professor Rashid Khalidi about the prospects for an end to the violence.
The prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. The soldiers' commander says it's unfair to blame her troops.
BRIG. GEN. JANIS KARPINSKI, COMMANDER, 800TH MILITARY POLICE BRIGADE: I do know with almost absolute confidence that they didn't wake up one day and decide to do this.
DOBBS: Tonight, in my commentary, putting perspective un- American behavior and the greater affront to Arab and American sensibilities.
A small, but growing number of American business leaders say companies that export American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets are making a big mistake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are losing to others for a short-term gain and a long-term loss.
DOBBS: The U.S. Chamber of Commerce says exporting America is good for the American economy and good for American jobs. The Chamber's CEO, Tom Donohue is my guest.
And record heat in California, wildfires burning more than 2,000 acres. Forestry officials say this summer's fire season could be the worst ever.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, May 3. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Iraqi insurgents today launched the heaviest attacks against American troops in Najaf since the soldiers replaced Spanish troops in that city last month. American troops said they killed as many as 20 Shiite gunmen loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. No Americans were killed or wounded.
Jane Arraf has the report from Najaf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The most intense attack by Muqtada al-Sadr's militia since U.S. forces moved into this base in Najaf three weeks ago. One mortar round hit this abandoned hospital. The only occupants were the dead, left in the morgue here after the Mahdi Army overran it last month.
LT. COL. PAT WHITE, 2ND BATTALION, 37TH REGIMENT: We've had about 30 mortar rounds during the attack in various locations in the city coming in at us. And then, of course, everybody's grabbed their AK and jumped up on the roof to fire at us as well.
ARRAF: The problem for U.S. Army soldiers in the middle of a crowded Shia city was firing back.
COL. BRADY MAY, 2ND BATTALION, 37TH REGIMENT: The particular position we're in right now is the central part of the city. And what you have is the holy sites essentially on either flank of us. And we've been very careful to avoid contact inside the holy sites out of respect for religion.
ARRAF: The Army didn't use its artillery or its attack helicopters. These two Apaches took fire from rocket-propelled grenades. The Army says they returned safely to base.
(on camera): U.S. military officials say firing has come from essentially all directions around this U.S. base. They say they've even pinpointed mortar rounds coming from the courtyard of a mosque in Kufa. They say they did not fire back.
(voice-over): For hours, Salvadoran snipers working with the United States fired from the perimeter. The Army used only small-arms and tank-mounted weapons. Workers reinforced the building housing a handful of civilian coalition officials who have stayed here under daily attack since Sadr seized Najaf and Kufa in April.
PHIL KOSNETT, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Our union is fond of saying that more American ambassadors have died in action than American generals since the end of World War II. There's more to being a modern American diplomat than conference tables and cocktail parties.
ARRAF: With the constant attacks, it seems unlikely coalition officials will be sitting around a conference table discussing the withdrawal of militia forces anytime soon.
Jane Arraf, CNN, Najaf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Fallujah, the Iraqi general put in charge of the Fallujah Brigade has been replaced only three days after the U.S. military put him in charge. The new general in charge is Mohammed Abdul Latif, a former military intelligence officer in Saddam Hussein's army. The U.S. military replaced General Jassim Mohammed Saleh, who was a member of Hussein's Republican Guard.
It turns out the victims of Saddam Hussein's regime were outraged with Saleh's appointment in the first place because they said he was too closely tied to the former dictator. No word whether the same people are equally as outraged that many members of the new Fallujah Brigade apparently fought against U.S. forces trying to free the city of insurgents.
Escaped hostage Thomas Hamill today arrived in Ramstein Air Base in Germany. Hamill is receiving medical treatment for a gunshot wound in his right arm before he flies home. Hamill was found by soldiers in the 1st Infantry Division near Balad north of Baghdad. Hamill escaped when he heard an Army patrol near the farmhouse where he was being held prisoner. Hamill was captured three weeks ago when insurgents ambushed his convoy.
The U.S. Army today said it has reprimanded six soldiers, admonished another for abusing Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. Six other American soldiers all military policemen face criminal charges. The White House said President Bush today called Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to make certain all of the soldiers involved in the scandal are punished.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Pentagon today insisted that it began investigating the allegations of prisoner abuse back in January immediately after some of these pictures surfaced. They were turned over, they say, by a concerned is soldier.
So far, six soldiers, including some officers, have been reprimand, effectively ending their military careers. And six others, including some military police seen in the photographs, are now facing court-martial on criminal charges. But according to their lawyers and in fact one of the generals who is in charge of the prison, those military police were following orders from military interrogators or, in some cases, the civilians they hired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARPINSKI: One of the most despicable aspects of those pictures, those faces on those soldiers, those soldiers who belong to one of my M.P. companies, absolutely. I don't know how they do this. I don't know how they allowed these activities to get so out of control, but I do know, with almost absolute confidence, that they didn't wake up one day and decide to do this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, in a classified Army investigation, General Karpinski, seen there, was also faulted for giving too much authority to the military intelligence officers. And today, again, the U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad said whatever the investigation finds about the role of military intelligence or contractors, there's no excuse for some of the activity depicted in those photographs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: I don't know if we should be focusing on specific organizations as much as individual conduct that we saw in those photos. I'm not sure what organization those people were from, but I can tell you that what they were doing in those photos on is absolutely wrong, deplorable, and they should be investigated and prosecuted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, unlike some of the high-profile cases we've seen recently, like for instance out of Chaplain Yee, who was charged with various offenses that eventually didn't stand up in court, the investigation of these cases has been held very close. In fact, none of the names have been officially released, nor the specific charges or the results of the investigation that led to those charges to date.
In fact, so far, General Myers, the Joint Chiefs chairman and Donald Rumsfeld, defense secretary, insist they haven't read this classified report, nor been briefed on it. And, in fact, General Myers approached "60 Minutes" who first aired these pictures and asked them to hold them for some period of time because of his fear that these images might provoke an anti-U.S. backlash in an area where already the U.S. is dealing with a lot of violence -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkably here, Jamie, General Karpinski is out talking to the media after reassignment, suggestions by General Kimmitt that it's not important which organization the soldiers, all of them military police at this point, were working for. At the same time, this investigation touching upon whether military intelligence as we understand it had some role in all of this. What more can you tell us about that?
MCINTYRE: Well, interestingly, there are five separate investigations that have been going on. The most recent one was started just 10 days ago. That's the one looking at the role of military intelligence and also the role of what private contractors, mostly former intelligence or former military people employed by the U.S. government, what role they might have played.
And of course, it's particularly problematic when you have American contractors doing this kind of work, because they don't fall under military justice. They don't fall under Iraqi justice. They do fall under U.S. law. But it's very murky about how they will be prosecuted and how they would be brought to justice and what role they should play. That's one of the things, the disturbing questions they're looking at now.
DOBBS: Indeed. Thank you very much, Jamie -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe private security firms, instead of military intelligence, the FBI and the CIA should be interrogating prisoners of war, yes or no? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Also later here, I've be sharing some of my thoughts about the prisoner abuse scandal and the implications for U.S. policy in the Middle East. I'll also be talking with professor and author Rashid Khalidi about the transfer of power in Iraq on June 30, the role of the United States in the Middle East, and the future of the insurgency confronting the U.S. forces in Iraq.
In "America Votes" tonight, President Bush has launched a bus tour in the Midwest. Senator John Kerry has stepped up his advertising. We'll have the report for you on the presidential campaign.
And a day of mourning for Pat Tillman, former NFL player, soldier, killed in the line of duty in combat in Afghanistan.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Two days, two battleground states. President Bush today kicked off his bus tour across Michigan and Ohio. That's right, bus tour. While it may be difficult for many of us to imagine President Bush on a bus, you may remember this is an election year, after all.
Dana Bash is traveling with the president tonight and joins us from Kalamazoo, Michigan -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, of course, the election is six months away and the fact that the president is on a bus tour here in Michigan and then again tomorrow in Ohio is a good indicator of just how tight the polls show he is with John Kerry in these very important state that really could make or break the election.
Now, the Bush campaign in 2000, really, they were optimistic about winning Michigan. They thought they were going to well here, but take a look at what happened in 2000. Al Gore got 51 percent and the president got just 46 percent. So the Bush campaign has been working very hard here to beef up its grassroots campaign. And they're making it very clear, there's a very specific reason the president is here for his very first trip.
But the problem they do acknowledge is that the biggest issue to voters here in Michigan could be one of the president's biggest liabilities, and that is, of course, unemployment. This state has lost about 300,000 jobs since Mr. Bush has been in office. And take a look at these figures. In 2000, the unemployment rate for the year was about 3.5 percent. Now, or at least the last month it was taken here, 6.9 percent. So it's almost doubled. And that's an issue that the president certainly had to address when he was going through the state.
First, he was in Niles, Michigan, in the southwest part of the state, and now here in Kalamazoo. He said he understands, while he has an optimistic message about the economy, people here in Michigan are hurting. But, as any good incumbent would, his message was that his challenger would make things worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have got six more months to go in the campaign and he's easily over $1 trillion in new promises. And so the question that I ask is, how is he going to pay for it? And he said, of course, by taxing the rich. There's not enough money to tax the rich to pay for the new promises he's made. So guess who he is going to tax? He's going to tax you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, the president did acknowledge here that he thinks that John Kerry is going to be a difficult opponent and it is going to be a tough race, but he also, in terms of the attempt by the Bush campaign to try to make John Kerry into somebody who says one thing one day and something else the next mentioned a story that John Kerry told here in Michigan, that he has an SUV.
Later, when he was asked about it, he had said that his family in fact has an SUV, not necessarily him. So the president was trying to poke fun or tweak John Kerry in a message that he thinks that people here in Michigan will understand him, talking about an SUV -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash reporting from Kalamazoo, Michigan, with the president. And we want to be clear. A graphic in the report that Dana just filed, it showed 2003, an unemployment of approximate 3.5. That was actually supposed to say, the year 2000, 3.5, and 204, 8.9 percent unemployment in the state of Michigan.
Democratic presidential hopeful Senator John Kerry today unveiled the biggest single ad buy in presidential politics ever, $25 million. President Bush has spent more than $60 million on television and radio since early March. But Senator Kerry released the two ads in 19 key states today. Kerry's campaign manager says the latest set of ads tell the American people who John Kerry is, what he stands for.
And the apparently candidate needs a boost because he's still essentially tied with President Bush in national polls.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: April seemed to be a month of bad news for President Bush: an insurrection in Iraq with mounting U.S. casualties, dramatic testimony at the 9/11 commission hearings, rising gas prices. Then the polls came out and showed what? The national race still essentially a tie. No momentum for John Kerry. Kerry's people have an explanation.
STEPHANIE CUTTER, KERRY CAMPAIGN PRESS SECRETARY: The Bush- Cheney campaign has spent $60 million in ads before we've even started.
SCHNEIDER: Some Democrats say don't pay too much attention to the national polls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at the national polls, they don't tell the whole story. You've got to look at the states, you've got to look at the battleground states in general.
SCHNEIDER: OK. Let's do that. In the past month, non-partisan polls have come out in 10 battleground states. Among them, four battleground states Bush won in 2000 where polls show him still ahead: Arizona, Arkansas, Florida and New Hampshire. But in every case, by small statistically insignificant margins.
The latest poll in Florida, for example, shows Bush leading Kerry by one whole point. In Florida, that's a landslide. Here are two battleground states, Iowa and Michigan, that Gore won in 2000, where the latest polls show Kerry ahead in each case by one point. Have any states shifted since 2000?
Gore carried New Mexico, Oregon and Pennsylvania last time. Now the polls show Bush slightly ahead in all three. Plus, New Jersey, which is not supposed to be a battleground state. Gore beat Bush by 16 points in New Jersey. Now, Bush is ahead.
Have any states shifted the other way, from Bush to Kerry? Maybe one, Wisconsin. But the latest Wisconsin polls are inconsistent. One shows Kerry ahead, one shows Bush ahead.
Is there any good news for Kerry in the battleground states? Actually, yes. In every state polled, Bush is getting less support than he got in 2000. In Florida, for instance, Bush got 49 percent of the vote in 2000. He's getting 46 percent in the polls now.
In Pennsylvania, where Bush is running slightly ahead of Kerry, he's polling lower than in 2000. Overall, Bush looks weaker than he was in 2000. But Kerry is not doing as well as Gore.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: By responding quickly to the Republican attacks, Kerry is showing he's no Michael Dukakis, but at same time he's also allowing the Republicans to control the agenda -- Lou.
DOBBS: This $25 million buy record one-time buy, Bill, is that slated specifically to counteract the weakness that you've shown there?
SCHNEIDER: Absolutely. It's slated to reintroduce and in many cases just introduce Kerry to lots of voters. It is going to show in those battleground states all over the country, because the idea is, Bush defining Kerry as a flip-flopper and a waffler and a liberal. And he wants to define himself. And he's spending $25 million to do it. So the view is, he better do this fast before it's too late.
DOBBS: Six months to go. That isn't too late, is it?
SCHNEIDER: I don't think so. The question is, how many people are paying attention six months before Election Day? DOBBS: Bill, Schneider, thank you.
SCHNEIDER: OK.
DOBBS: When we continue, putting perspective un-American behavior in Iraq. I'll share my views with you on the matter in my commentary.
And Columbia University Professor Rashid Khalidi says the United States had no intention of creating an independent Iraqi government. He is my guest next.
And two American companies that have learned firsthand why exporting American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets isn't good business. And I'll be joined by Tom Donohue, the CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, who says outsourcing is good business. He is my guest as well tonight.
Also ahead, remembering one of the heroes of the war on terror, a memorial service tonight for former NFL star Pat Tillman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pat, Kevin made the ultimate commitment and sacrifice. They left behind...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, now says he regrets saying that President Bush was -- quote -- "paying no attention to terrorism" -- end quote -- in a speech he made six months before September 11.
Bremer says his criticism of the president in February of 2000 was what he now calls unfair. Bremer said President Bush had just been sworn into office. The president could not, he says, be held responsible for the government's failure to deal with terrorism over the previous seven months.
The United States slated to hand over sovereignty to the Iraqis at the end of June. It is still far from clear how much power the new interim Iraqi government will have. My guest tonight says the United States must let the Iraqis govern themselves after June 30 or the insurgency will continue.
Rashid Khalidi is director of the Middle East Institute at Columbia University, professor of Arab studies, the author of "Resurrecting Empire," and joins us now.
Good to have you with us, Professor.
RASHID KHALIDI, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Pleasure, Lou.
DOBBS: The idea that the United States had no idea of turning over power to the Iraqis, you really believe that.
KHALIDI: Well, either they had no idea what Iraq was like and projected things like permanent American bases, American control of Iraqi oil, getting Iraqis to recognize Israel, or they never did intend to put in anything more than a puppet government in.
DOBBS: Is there any example in the region that would suggest to you that they're there would be that kind of naivete or that kind of duplicity?
KHALIDI: Well, I don't think that, if we look carefully at the way the Bush administration went about this, they had much a sense of history.
I try and show in the book that the experience of lesser powers in the Middle East has been a rocky one and that clearly in Washington they were not looking at that or I think at the reality of Iraq. So at least naivete, perhaps duplicity.
DOBBS: A quote in your book that you just mentioned: "By invading, occupying and imposing a new regime on Iraq, the United States may be stepping intentionally or not into the boots of the old Western colonial powers and may be doing so in a region that concluded a lengthy struggle to expel those hated colonial occupations."
You really see a parallel between -- obviously the reference is primarily to the British, first of all, and to the French.
KHALIDI: And to the French.
DOBBS: There is nothing in U.S. history that suggests a colonial imperial imperative. So why would you draw this?
KHALIDI: Nothing in the Middle East. For the Philippines, Central America, perhaps.
The reason is partly because this is the way Iraqis are going to perceive it. Their modern history has been shaped and Middle Easterners by these foreign colonial occupations, which only ended in the '60s. The second reason is that they are clearly doing things that most Iraqis don't want them to do. Taking over the Iraqi oil industry, privatizing the Iraqi economy, is something that I don't think Iraqis would voluntarily ask to have happen.
DOBBS: Do you think we have a sense, quite frankly, as to what the Iraqis, as we speak broadly, of the 25 million people, really want?
KHALIDI: I think most Iraqis now clearly do not want the United States to be there.
DOBBS: That tells us what they don't want.
KHALIDI: Right.
DOBBS: Do we have a sense of what they do want? KHALIDI: I think they probably want democracy.
DOBBS: You do?
KHALIDI: I do believe that, yes.
DOBBS: You know that puts you in something of a minority amongst Arabists and experts in the region.
KHALIDI: Well, some people underestimate Arabs and Middle Easterners. I think they really do have strong democratic aspirations.
DOBBS: Well, these would be the Arab experts and the Middle East experts I'm referring to. So you think your colleagues are underestimating them?
KHALIDI: Perhaps some of them do, yes.
DOBBS: Well, that's a very hopeful statement you just made, that they do want democracy. Is it your sense, then, that the United States can successfully hand over power on June 30, either to the existing Iraqi Governing Council or to the interim government that would be established by Brahimi at United Nations?
KHALIDI: The interim -- this Governing Council is discredited in Iraq. Most of these people are seen as stooges by most Iraqis. Hopefully, Brahimi will begin a process where Iraqis can choose their own government. For 13 months, no important decisions in Iraq has been made by Iraqis. And that's far too long, I think.
DOBBS: Is it your judgment that the so-called insurgency and the obvious terrorism on the part of some will end with a handover if the United Nations can put together a rational interim government and then prepare for elections in January of 2005?
KHALIDI: Unfortunately, I don't think the terrorism will end.
I think the insurgency will. I think it's directed at the U.S. occupation. And if it is clear that United States is leaving, will not try and keep bases there, which the Iraqis definitely not do not want, and will not try and keep control of Iraq, I actually do believe that the insurgency will die down.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Professor. As you look at what's happening in Iraq, why has there not be been a greater sense of responsibility on the part of Arab states of the region to be supportive, to be engaged in providing for a stable Iraq? The United Nations, until August, when their offices were attacked, were engaged in Iraq. They withdrew. Do you fear, for example, that the United Nations once again, coming in under new auspices, will once again, if you will, cut and run?
KHALIDI: Well, I don't know what the United Nations will do. I think terrorism directed at the U.N. might lead to that. Hopefully not. One reason that regional countries and other countries have not been involved is, they were not asked by the United States. In fact, they were dismissed in a very callous way by the Bush administration. They were told they were not needed. The United States would do as it pleased and would bring along whoever who wanted to come along on American terms. That is why...
DOBBS: But, now, that's a broad statement, Professor. You really know what the United States did with 22 Arab states?
KHALIDI: Well, not just Arab states, country like Turkey, countries like Iran.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: The 22 Arab states in the region.
KHALIDI: A number of Arab states supported the American intervention. Most did not, largely I think because they felt the United States would not consulting them, largely because I think they felt the United States was doing these things without paying attention to facts we now know to be true, no weapons, no link between this region and terrorism, no particular danger by Iraq to even its closest neighbors.
So most countries in the region simply didn't believe the American rationale.
DOBBS: And the import of the way in which the United States turns over sovereignty to the region itself to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
KHALIDI: Well, let's hope sovereignty will eventually be turned over.
What's going to happen on June 30 is not the turnover -- handover of sovereignty. General Sanchez will control everything in Iraq and the American ambassador will probably make most decisions but when it happens, hopefully soon, I hope that we'll have a positive impact on the Palestine/Israeli conflict.
DOBBS: We thank you very much for being here. Come back soon and you've given us a glimmer of hope.
KHALIDI: I hope so.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, professor.
KHALIDI: Thank you.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll tonight. The question, do you believe private security firms instead of military intelligence, the FBI and the CIA should be interrogating prisoners of war? Yes or no, cast your vote at CNN.com. We'll bring you the results later in the broadcast. I'd like to share a few of my thoughts about the treatment of Iraqi prisoners. Like all Americans I'm sickened by the abuse of Iraqis held in Abu Ghraib prison. It doesn't really matter that only a relatively small number of U.S. army military police were involved in such disgusting unAmerican behavior. It is inexcusable, an affront to all our military serving in Iraq with courage and distinction.
And just as we take great pride in the accomplishments and the service of our military, all of us must accept the shame of even a few who disgrace the uniform and this country. In my opinion, the commander-in-chief should be the first to apologize to the Iraqis and to the 130,000 men and women who serve this country in Iraq. And in my opinion, we should apologize not as some suggest because these few soldiers offended Arab and Muslim, cultural and religious values. We do not require Islamic scholars or experts to guide our behavior in Iraq or for that matter anywhere in the world.
Their time is better spent counseling those terrorists and insurgents who attacked Americans, who committed atrocities against four Americans outside Fallujah and who kill innocent women and children in the name of their cause in Iraq.
No, we should apologize because those few soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison offended American values of decency, fairness and propriety. Those are the values, after all, that underline our democracy. A democracy we seek to have the Iraqis emulate. An apology is definitely in order.
A day of mourning and remembrance in California today for one of the heroes killed in action defending this country. Former NFL player Pat Tillman was killed in action last month in Afghanistan. And tonight hundreds are gathered to remember him. Ted Rowlands is at his post in San Jose, California -- Ted.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, actually more than 3,000 people ended up showing up to this public memorial service which started about a half an hour ago. The first lady of California, Maria Shriver is addressing that crowd of family, friends and acquaintances of Tillman and people that were simply moved by his story. Arizona Senator John McCain is scheduled to speak next at this ceremony.
Tillman, of course, everybody is familiar with the story, he turned his back on an NFL career. Said no to the fame and fortune of playing professional football after the 9/11 attacks and he joined the army. Now Senator John McCain is taking the stage and he is addressing this crowd as well. Tillman was in the lead group of two ranger units in Afghanistan on April 22 when the second group of rangers came under fire. Tillman then turned around, turned his group around to go back and help his fellow rangers. He was the only one to die in that battle. He was awarded the silver star by the Pentagon last week for bravery on the battlefield.
It's unclear what Pat Tillman would think about all of this attention, Lou, considering that he did absolutely no interviews when he decided to join the army and leave the NFL. He was acutely aware of the fact that he was just one of thousands of men and women that were putting their life on the line to defend our country, that type of attitude, of course, is why so many people here are here today in his hometown of San Jose to pay tribute -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ted, thank you very much. Ted Rowlands.
Still ahead here tonight, exporting America. The CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce wants to block efforts to protect American jobs. Tom Donohue is our guest and two more American companies have learned the hard way that exporting America to the cheap foreign labor markets doesn't always pay.
And then the devastating impact that the exporting of America has on our older workers.
And an early start to the brushfire season has officials in California and around the western states concerned that this could be the worst wildfire season ever. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported on this show many reasons why exporting American work to cheaper foreign labor markets is objectionable and in point of fact often doesn't pay. Tonight we hear from two CEOs who tried outsourcing jobs to those cheap foreign labor markets and learned for themselves that exporting America isn't always good for business. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It may not look like much, but inside this door is a technology services company that does work for more than 20 Fortune 500 companies and the U.S. government. It's the headquarters of ASR International. On first impression, ASR's CEO Rao Anumolu might seem just like the kind of CEO you'd expect to outsource. He's Indian born. And he tried offshoring, but found the approach short- sighted.
RAO ANUMOLU, ASR INTERNATIONAL: What American business is doing is they're losing to others for a short-term gain on a long-term loss.
TUCKER: For him, reversing the trend is also a social responsibility.
ANUMOLU: I came to this country 35 years back. My children are born here. I live here. I want to live here. I want to do the right things. Not only for me, my family but the society in which I live in.
TUCKER: To help narrow the higher cost of workers here in the United States, ASR's corporate headquarters is modest and some of its 500 workers are employed in lower cost states like Arizona and Utah.
ANUMOLU: Having the job done by local professionals at local sites is done in America, with our workers here. They are citizens and they pay taxes here. They work here. They live here, they produce here and it is a win-win for everybody. TUCKER: The way Rao puts it companies in the United States need to look before sending jobs overseas. At Bladelogic based in Walter, Massachusetts the CEO couldn't agree more.
When we looked at deploying resource in India we found that actually a competive (ph) advantage was mitigated. We found that even if there was a cost advantage of 3x in India, there was a productivity advantage of 6x here in the U.S.
TUCKER: So whether it's done as an act of social responsibility or for purely capitalistic reasons, keeping work here at home is working for these companies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: What each company has learned is not only can higher cost be offset by strong management, but the quality of the American workforce creates their advantage -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Bill, as you know, not everybody agrees with that assessment. Appreciate it. My next guest is amongst those who does not agree with that assessment. In fact he says outsourcing is good for the American economy and American jobs. Tom Donohue is the president and the CEO of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, an outspoken opponent of legislation that would block the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Tom Donohue also support the Bush administration's decision not to investigate Chinese labor violations and join us tonight. Good to have you with us, Tom.
The idea, and the chamber has done some extensive research. The idea that now 35 states out of some 40 who are in point of fact outsourcing taxpayer-funded jobs overseas, 35 of them now have legislation in front of them to stop it. You're working very hard to block that. You've been successful in an amazing number of cases. Why are you working so hard to stop that?
TOM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT & CEO, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: Well, because it would be a mistake and when we went to those states and provided the information that's contained in our report which we have already given you a cope of.
DOBBS: Right.
DONOHUE: People realize that there's $60 billion more of service work that is in insourced to the United States than is outsourced and many of these states have found out that they have the jobs. The other thing the states have found out, Lou, you know what the greatest outsourcing in the United States is? It's from one state to the another. The economic development people are always trying to go to another state to steal a company and a lot of jobs and bring it to their state and we've seen a migration from the north and east and the northeast to the south and the southwest. That's the real outsourcing that are unseating a lot of jobs.
DOBBS: Correct me if I've got this all wrong. Now the Chamber of Commerce and other proponents of outsourcing have not only decided to equate the outsourcing of jobs purely for wage price levels to cheap foreign labor markets...
DONOHUE: It's not purely.
DOBBS: If you allow me to finish.
DONOHUE: I always have to make sure.
DOBBS: We'll take turns.
DONOHUE: OK.
DOBBS: That's the way we'll do this.
Outsourcing purely for wage level is to take place. And there's something called insourcing now is the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) influence to that, right?
DONOHUE: Yes.
DOBBS: Insource coming we used to call foreign and direct investment. And secondly now we're equating the activity, the competitive activity within the domestic market to outsourcing to cheap foreign labor markets.
DONOHUE: You've asked three questions.
DOBBS: No, I've asked two.
DONOHUE: Let me take the issue, the domestic issue. That's when you go to the northeast and the Midwest states like Ohio and Michigan and somebody said all of the jobs have gone away. Many of them have gone to the south and the southwest. The second issue, people don't outsource just for price. They outsource for confidence and for skill. And the insource issue I'm talking about comes in two forms. Number one, they're the absolute service, when people come here to buy services and get jobs done here whether it's finance, ill's labor, it's clerical, whatever it is, and that's $60 billion a year more than we outsourced. The third issue goes on the question of why do people outsource and why do we support it? First of all, I was just there and then you go in those places and it's full of American products, but the fundamental issue.
DOBBS: Like what?
DONOHUE: Like computers, copiers, all kind of service, it's just amazing. American products all over.
DOBBS: All of them made right here in America, shipped over there.
DONOHUE: Some of them made right here in America.
DOBBS: What percentage would say?
DONOHUE: All of the intellectual property at home here and the profit's coming here. Last sentence. The big fundamental issue that we need to understand is we are short of skills in this country. Five years from now we'll have 10 million skilled jobs and we haven't got the people to fill.
DOBBS: Help me out here.
(CROSSTALK)
DONOHUE: I'll do the best I can.
DOBBS: Because, I listened to that and it's great and we have a huge trade deficit. We've got a huge trading deficit all around. We're a debter nation, we're importing capital and I keep hearing from American multinational CEOs, that they've got to be competitive. How much more competitiveness can this country afford if you're running a half trillion dollar current account deficit every year if we to continue to have to import hundreds of billions of dollars of capital. If we have a 3 trillion, I mean, what would we like to do?
Would we like to be compete and have their 3 trillion in trade debt? Have 9 trillion in trade debt. Where do we get competitive.
DONOHUE: I hear from the Germans and the French all of the time about the current account deficit which is a much smaller percentage than theirs. Our economy -- our economy is a $12.5 trillion economy. As a percentage of their economy our deficits are smaller than France and Germany. The issue here is that 95 percent of the people we want to set anything to live somewhere else in the world.
DOBBS: Well, you know, I'm running a business because we're running out of business.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But if I keep selling something, and I keep coming up with half trillion a year short, how much more do I have to sell to get even.
DONOHUE: Oh, I'm talking about the raid deficit now. We are the largest exports in the world. We sell more stuff overseas, create 30 percent of the domestic jobs doing that.
DOBBS: Wait a minute, isn't it a little bit like hanging if it weren't for the honor of the thing I could get a little offended?
DONOHUE: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. First of all, we're the largest exporters. We're also the largest consumer economy in the world. And for the great portion of our history, for 200 some odd years, we have had trade deficits, because we are the largest consumers. Because we look forward now, you see for 50 years we've been telling all these country, you ought to run your government this way. You ought to run your economy this way and they are doing it. And of course, it makes you mad and it makes other people mad because they're getting competitive.
DOBBS: It doesn't make me mad at all. It's the way we run this country that makes me mad. DONOHUE: I see. The bottom line is we still have the greatest economy in the world. We still create -- we have more jobs in the United States than we have had in anytime in our history. Our unemployment is 5.7 or 5.2, where ever you happen to be in the country, is the average of the last three decades.
DOBBS: Let's talk about this straight up. One, we're not outsourcing because we can't find the talent here. We're outsourcing because of the Mackenzie study verifies it, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) will verify it, because if's cheaper expect if we're not doing on that basis, I'd love -- we got over 600 companies right now, it's growing rapidly, of people who can't find the talent in this country, then shame on you guys. Because...
DONOHUE: No shame on us. Shame on the education system.
DOBBS: And shame on you because you haven't been a very impressive stake holder representative because in your community, what are you doing for education, what you're permit in the political system, with your wealth and your power and your influence with public education is inexcusable.
DONOHUE: I would like to thank the American business community to run the public education system.
DOBBS: I didn't say run it. I said influence it.
DONOHUE: Or influence it. When you and I started going to school, first-generation college people wanted to be engineers and scientist. Now we're a little more mature and a little more comfortable nation. We have a tenth of the people studying engineering, science, mathematics in the United States.
DOBBS: Why?
DONOHUE: Because people are very comfortable and that's hard stuff and a half of them are foreign students and a half of the faculty, are foreign faculty. We have a serious problem in this country on where we get our skills.
DOBBS: We're starting to come together. Now we're talking about education.
DONOHUE: This we can work on it.
DOBBS: We can work on lots of things and business has to start working on preserving jobs for the middle class American who has built the companies that you represent. This -- don't you agree with -- I love the comment by Carly Fiorina that no American has a god-given right to job. Doesn't that burn you up if you're a CEO, a member of your organization would say something like. Because if the American doesn't have the God given right, who in the world does.
DONOHUE: I'm not sure about God given rights. We didn't come here to talk about theology. But I think every American...
DOBBS: I'm quoting one of your CEO's.
DONOHUE: I understand, I'm not talking theology. Every American...
DOBBS: It sounded like a lot like politics on economic.
DONOHUE: Am I ducking this question well enough for you?
DOBBS: You're trying. Am I working hard enough back?
DONOHUE: Yes, you are. Every American as the opportunity to get the skills together to go out and have a decent job. Anywhere in the world. Anywhere in the world where more immigrants have come over the history of modern time and found opportunity and found jobs. And all during that time when we were outsourcing some number of things and we will continue to.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: According to one study, 50 percent more jobs will be going out of this country.
DONOHUE: Of course, they will.
DOBBS: Excuse me, will be outsourced to cheap foreign labor markets, next year, than this. The projections are...
DONOHUE: I won't argue with you. So -- So, instead of 250,000 jobs it will be 500,000...
DOBBS: Have you polled your membership?
DONOHUE: Of course, I have.
DOBBS: All right, how many.
DONOHUE: I don't know a total number. And let me tell you...
DOBBS: You said 250, that's the number.
DONOHUE: It is no way double that.
DOBBS: OK, let's take no way double that. Project that up against the University of California Berkeley study and find out...
DONOHUE: I don't believe anything University of California Berkeley says. No, only I'm giving you a bad time.
DOBBS: You know, at this point, it is ridiculous that our government, our Chamber of Commerce, the business roundtable don't know the number of jobs that have been outsourced.
DONOHUE: You were ever on a farm?
DOBBS: I was, yes.
DONOHUE: You know how to pump the pump? You put a little water
(CROSSTALK)
DONOHUE: Priming. The jobs that we send overseas are nothing more than priming, to getting the markets, and I agree to get some...
DOBBS: Have you heard about the well returning dry. When you kill American jobs, you could be killing the market you are try to preserve.
DONOHUE: I'm sure the well doesn't run dry.
DOBBS: And I'm sure there are a lot of hard-working Americans out there are glad to hear about your new commitment.
DONOHUE: I hope there are a lot of hard-working families that want us to work on the education thing together. That's going to be your new theme, I hope.
DOBBS: It has been one of my themes and has been for more than a year. Tom Donohue.
DONOHUE: Thank you. Always good to gee you.
DOBBS: Good to see you.
Still ahead, flames lead to evacuations in California. The state's wildfire season is coming on strong and it is coming early and that is true throughout much of the west. We'll have that story and the details next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In California wildfires have forced officials to evacuate hundreds of homes. Firefighters are battling blazes already across southern California. This is only the first day of what could be another devastating brushfire season for many of the western states.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): Another day of record-high temperatures in southern California. And that means the fire season has arrived almost a month early.
CHIEF MILT DAVIES, NORTH COUNTY FIRE DEPT.: Remember, this is like late April or the 1st of May. This is August, September kind of stuff we're seeing right now.
DOBBS: Three fires broke out in southern California over the weekend, scorching more than 2,000 acres on the Camp Pendleton Marine Base and in two areas of Riverside County. 31 cities in southern California have record-high temperatures. Last year, California saw its worst fire season in more than 70 years, one fire alone burned almost 300,000 acres. Officials worry this year could be just as bad.
CAPT. JIM WRIGHT, CALIF. DEPT. OF FORESTRY: The fuel conditions, the weather conditions were very similar last year as they are now and there is still a lot of areas that have been affected by prolonged drought in southern California that we're very concerned about. We could be walking into a replay of last year.
DOBBS: As bad as that was the wildfire outlook for much of the west and southwestern Alaska is significantly worse than a year ago.
ANN CAMP, YALE SCHOOL OF FORESTRY AND ENVIRON. STUDIES: In a year where you have high temperatures and extreme drought, this is setting up a situation where fires are going to create a lot of damage. They're going to burn individual homes and even communities.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: California fire officials say that while this fire season may be off to an early alarming start at least this year their firefighters are more prepared to respond than a year ago.
When we continue another guilty verdict for corporate America. A star investment banker convicted of obstructing justice. We'll have the story for you next. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks rose on Wall Street today. The Dow up more than 88 points. The Nasdaq up 18 1/2 points, a little more. The S&P 500 up more than 10 points. Christine Romans with the story now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, again an up day on low volume. Oil stocks particularly strong today that's because crude oil prices hit a 13-year high. A new low for Frank Quattrone. His first trial ended in a hung jury. Today a jury convicted him of obstruction of justice and witness tampering. He's the former star investment banker at Credit Suisse First Boston.
And in the politics of economics, Warren Buffett has joined the John Kerry bandwagon. Buffett warned that this country as well cannot persist in running a record trade deficit. He said ballooning trade imbalances could at some point cause severe disruptions in the financial markets.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Christine. Just ahead, the results of our poll. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll. 95 percent of you say you don't believe private security firms instead of military intelligence, the FBI, CIA, should be interrogating prisoners of war. Please join us tomorrow here. Ambassador Joe Wilson will be here to talk about his new book and will be joined by Congressman Luis Gutierrez on immigration reform. From all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
