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American Morning

Thomas Hamill Expected to be Back in U.S. Before End of Week; 'Paging Dr. Gupta'

Aired May 04, 2004 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. 8:30 here in New York. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Heidi is in for Soledad today. In fact, you're here all week, correct?
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: I'm here all week.

HEMMER: Soledad's out until Friday, until next week, so it's good to have you here.

COLLINS: Well, thank you very much.

HEMMER: We have plenty to talk about.

COLLINS: Yes, we certainly do. In fact, just this morning, we've seen the first moving pictures of Thomas Hamill since he escaped his Iraqi captors. There he is there. But not far from his Mississippi home, there is no celebration. Sergeant Jeff Dayton is not coming home from Iraq. We'll have his story coming up in just a bit.

HEMMER: Also this hour here, yesterday we saw Dr. Gupta eating fire. Today, he's stepping into more danger. If you've ever wondered how these stunts are done -- some call them circus acts -- stay with us in a moment here. Sanjay's been to the circus. He'll stop by.

COLLINS: What happened to him? I used to know him.

HEMMER: You got a neurosurgeon over here and you got a guy eating fire. So we'll ask him about that very subject.

COLLINS: As long as he doesn't combine the two in the operating room, we're good.

All right, want to move on to the news of the morning. The first wildfires of the season are raging in Southern California. Live pictures now coming to us from KTTV. You are looking at an area called Corona, about a 1600-acre blaze going on there. Firefighters are battling blazes scattered from Los Angeles to San Diego County. Hundreds of people have been ordered to evacuate and dozens of homes are threatened.

Triple digit temperatures and erratic winds have made fighting the fires more difficult. These pictures coming to us just moments ago from KABC Los Angeles County, and Tim Mecula (ph) there.

The so-called Mideast quartet will try to revive a stalled road map to peace. U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is hosting today's meeting in New York. He'll be joined by senior representatives from the U.S., the European Union and Russia. The peace plan has been dashed in recent weeks, but continued violence and a rejection of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Gaza withdrawal plan.

Mamdu Makmun Salim (ph), a former top aide to Osama bin Laden, is sentenced to 32 years behind bars for stabbing a corrections officer. Salim still faces trial and could life in prison if he is found guilty for his reported role in the 1998 U.S. embassy terrorist bombings in Africa.

And the Material Girl and her husband head to court in California over a lawsuit stemming from their movie "Swept Away." Madonna and Guy Ritchie are expected to tell the judge the box office bomb was completely their own idea. A man is suing them for $10 million, though. He claims the concept to remake the Italian film was swept idea, was an idea he pitched to Madonna back in 1997.

HEMMER: Did you hear Carol Costello earlier on "DAYBREAK?" I didn't know anyone wanted to claim that.

COLLINS: Probably true. I have not seen that.

HEMMER: That's right. I have not either. I think we're saving our money wisely.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: Mississippi native Thomas Hamill who we saw earlier today for the first time since his escape from Iraqi captors expected to be back in the U.S. before the end of this week. In fact, his wife is due to arrive in Germany on Wednesday.

Bob Franken is in Hamill's hometown in Macon, Mississippi with more on his story, as well as another Mississippi family going through very different emotions today.

Bob, good morning there.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

This is the story of two men from the same part of Mississippi. Returning from Iraq, coming back to very different homecomings.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Two front page stories from Iraq in the local paper. One describes Tommy Hamill's escape from captivity and the exhilarating relief back home in Macon, Mississippi.

HAMILL: I will let you know I've spoke with my husband. He is fine. He's doing well.

FRANKEN: Less than 40 miles away in Columbus, Mississippi, the other story of another family and the knock on the door with crushing news. JIM DAYTON, FATHER OF JEFF DAYTON: When those three sergeants came in and told me about Jeff, I mean my heart just felt like it was going to explode.

FRANKEN: Sergeant Jeff Dayton was another of the hundreds killed in Iraq his life now searingly painful memories of letters, pictures.

JIM DAYTON: I'll never get to talk to him again. I'll never get to hug him and it's just a helpless feeling.

JEREMY DAYTON, BROTHER OF JEFF DAYTON: I'm still in disbelief that it even happened. When I first found out I just, I don't know, I couldn't imagine going on.

FRANKEN: Jeff was a hero to his younger brother Jeremy. The family is trying to cope with his loss by telling the world how proud they were of him, they are of him, yet embracing the spirit of the celebration down the road.

JEREMY DAYTON: It feels good knowing that some people can get some relief.

FRANKEN: But now the first questions are registering.

JIM DAYTON: Once you lose a son, I don't know it's funny, you have to think, gee, this is -- you feel helpless and it's almost senseless.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Tommy Hamill will be coming back here to Macon to a parade. Jeff Dayton returns to Columbus, Mississippi down the road for final farewells -- Bill.

HEMMER: Bob, thanks for that sobering report, again out of Mississippi -- Heidi.

COLLINS: The fallout is continuing from the alleged mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq. The classified report on the alleged abuses obtained by CNN says, quote -- "egregious acts and grave breaches of international law occurred at the Abu Ghraib Prison."

So how common is the use of abuse and even abuse on enemy prisoners during wartime.

Former U.S. Army Colonel David Hackworth served in Vietnam and the Korean War. He's also written the book "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts." He joins us this morning.

Thanks so much for being with us, colonel. Appreciate your time this morning.

What do you make of what happened at this prison? And of course we are not saying that torture went on here. The alleged abuse, how do you see it when you look at those pictures? COL. DAVID HACKWORTH (RET.), U.S. ARMY: There's an old Army saying, that there are no bad units, only bad leaders. This is a reflection of bankrupt leadership from maybe the White House, but certainly the secretary of defense, right down to the corporal in charge of a particular detail within that prison. It reflects that the unit was not well disciplined, was not well trained, and didn't have even adult supervision.

COLLINS: You had a chance to listen a little bit earlier today to Brigadier General Janice Karpinski, of course the woman in charge of the prison. She agrees that there are just bad people, but she said this was not bad leadership. What do you make of that?

HACKWORTH: She's wrong. I can't believe a military police general would be running in this direction. She was the general in charge. She should have been down there. There were reports within her headquarters months before.

I have an organization called SFTT.org. We have been advertising on our Web site to the members of the units involved for months that -- to come to us with the inside information, and we've been break this story for months.

This thing is just not a sudden occurrence. The first atrocity known was a year ago, May of '03. You'd think that would have rang some alarm bells at the senior headquarters, and that's why I say the top generals and maybe the secretary of defense are responsible. They should have said, wait, in May of '03 we had these atrocities, let's get in there and investigate. Why didn't they?

COLLINS: All right, let's talk about specifics a little bit with your experiences in your career. How effective would you say abuse or torture -- and abuse meaning sleep deprivation, all these different things we've heard about -- how effective is that? Aren't the prisoners just going to basically tell their captors exactly what they want to hear in order to get the pain to stop, if you will?

HACKWORTH: I think you are right. I played this game eight years on battlefields, and i've gone by the simple rule, but for the grace of God there go I. If I took a prisoner, I treated him well, gave him a cigarette, gave him a can of cigarettes and some water, and the guy sang like a canary.

But if you start torturing people and doing some of the insidious things that good soldiers don't do. If we have 150-odd thousand soldiers in Iraq right now who have done such a valiant job, few of those people are these kind of animals. Few of those people would do these kind of things. But these kind of things wouldn't be done you didn't have inept leadership, and that's what went down here.

COLLINS: All right, very good point to make this morning. We certainly appreciate your time.

Colonel Hackworth, thanks once again -- Bill.

HEMMER: In a moment here, Heidi, what makes people risk life and limb to perform amazing feats?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish I had someone here that wanted to learn how to do this. I could teach them and -- hey, doctor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: A doctor is on call in a much different way. Sanjay in his "Life Beyond Limits" series in a few moments. Today, the issue is glass on the skin.

COLLINS: And getting tough with a Microsoft chief. Andy joins us with more on Bill Gates' huge fine.

Also, the Midwest bus tour continues today for the White House and the president. What do out of work Americans in Ohio and Michigan have to say for him? Up next, here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: In his new series, "Life Beyond Limits," Dr. Sanjay Gupta gets brave, treating us to some truly amazing feats and telling us what drives people to such extremes. Today, Sanjay gets a lesson in the art of glass walking. He was breathing fire yesterday, or swallowing fire, or something like that.

What's on the diet today? Good morning.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you as well.

What we're going to see today really falls more into the category of illusion. It is glass walking, the same principle for hot coal walking, all sort of stuff. The key is really in preparation and in mental willpower more than anything else. But it's worth saying as well, that everything we're going to be showing you this week, including what we show you today, is dangerous. I learned from experts for quite awhile before I actually did it myself. Here's what I found out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA (voice-over): Todd Robins, the star of a one-man show called "Carnival Knowledge" knows how to eat a light bulb, and he likes to walk on broken glass. Except walk isn't quite the word.

TODD ROBBINS, SIDESHOW PERFORMER: And the thing about this is it's not that difficult to learn.

As a matter of fact, I wished I had someone here that wanted to learn how to do this. I could teach them, and, hey, doctor.

Walking over the broken bottles in your shoes is not that impressive.

GUPTA (on camera): You're a good teacher. I trust you now.

(voice-over): Would I live to regret those words?

ROBBINS: The fact is, we've got a nice sharp point there. Therefore, you, for the most part, want to step on it square on. If there's any point you feel is too jagged and pushing into your foot, you just relieve the weight off of that and put it on somewhere else it feels a little bit better.

GUPTA (camera): But you don't go side to side.

ROBBINS: Try not to go side to side. You are going to lean on me, doctor, just so you can balance yourself, because balance is a very important thing. You don't know what you are kind of getting into this, just so you can just use my shoulder there as a little banister.

What I want you to do is just very lightly, just put the foot down there, and you'll find that it's not terribly pleasant, but you're not going to get cut, and that's all there is to walk over broken bottle. It basically feels like walk over gravel.

GUPTA: Not cut, not bleeding. It's not the most pleasant thing i've ever done.

ROBBINS: No, but it's not impossible.

GUPTA (voice-over): Baby steps. I couldn't bring myself to jump, but at least we both walked away without a scratch.

ROBBINS: Take a look at that one there. There you go, it's the real thing. There you go. Like a baby's bottom, aren't they?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: Somewhat of a test of faith, Bill, but you know a lot of that is in the preparation. More on illusion, as I said, really an act of physics.

HEMMER: But I want to see you take another step there, my friend. That was the easy part, with the hand on the shoulders.

GUPTA: I took a couple steps.

HEMMER: You say it's just physics and that's what keeps you safe. What you're suggesting then, If you don't pay attention to the physics, that's when a person can get hurt, correct?

GUPTA: That's exactly right. You are basically not putting any of your weight on any given point at any time. So even when I was just standing there, you're constantly moving your feet around to try and distribute the weight a little better.

HEMMER: What's up tomorrow? More science?

GUPTA: Yes, we've got some science behind a lot of this stuff, "Life Beyond Limits," looking at all these people and what the body is capable of, not only physically, but also mentally. Tomorrow, Tonya Streeter. She holds a record in free diving. You're not going to believe how far she can dive on a single breath of air, and how she does it, how she prepares.

HEMMER: Did you do that?

GUPTA: I did a little something, too.

HEMMER: Did you?

GUPTA: Well, we'll just leave it at that, as a little teaser.

HEMMER: Some folks across town in the control room wanted to know that, OK, so you're on the record.

Thank you, Sanjay. Sunday night, Sanjay's primetime special this weekend, "Life Beyond Limits." An hour comes your way of all the things he checked out. Out of Coney Island mostly, right?

GUPTA: That's right.

HEMMER: All right, terrific, 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 on the West Coast Sunday evening. Good to see you, Sanjay -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Still to come this morning, Bill Gates hit with another fine. But is it only chump change for this billionaire? That's next, here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Ladies and gentlemen, once again, Mr. Jack Cafferty is in the house today.

Good morning, Jack.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You know, they didn't treat me this way on "Live at 5:00."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Well, you're moving up in the world.

CAFFERTY: Quattrone, Gates, brain surgery and the markets. Doesn't get any better than that. Andy Serwer is here with all of those things, "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Is that a potpourri of business news.

CAFFERTY: You got it.

SERWER: Let's talk about yesterday. Let's check it out. A good day for the markets. Some minor economic reports sending the markets up higher. The big news, though, today is of course the fed, and Alan Greenspan and company are going to be meeting today. They'll be a statement from The Fed at 2:15 about interest rates. Don't expect any movement there, but expect the statement to change with regard to being patient about interest rates. They won't be patient about inflation anymore. They're going to be watching it like a hawk.

Let's talk about Frank Quattrone, the CSFB kingpin who was found guilty yesterday, three counts of obstruction of justice, Feds looking into allocation of IPOs by his firm. He's looking at perhaps two years, Jack.

CAFFERTY: All because of e-mails.

SERWER: He said "time to clean up the files," that was his e- mail. The first and only Wall Street guy to be found guilty in all of the stuff over the past couple of years.

Bill Gates fined $800,000 yesterday, really a technical thing here. He didn't file a report with the feds showing that he had bought more of a biotech firm Icos. They helped develop Cialis, by the way, quite a little company there.

CAFFERTY: I had no idea.

SERWER: Yes, and actually I talked to a source close to the situation...

CAFFERTY: That's not software, is it?

SERWER: Oh, OK. I just pitched the ball down the middle of the plate and Jack Cafferty hits the baseball, he hits it. Good for you. A source close to the situation said he got bad advice from the lawyers. Got to blame the lawyers.

And here's an interesting one, Clearchannel Communications, the nation's largest radio company, announcing earnings today. That's fine. They did pretty well. But then also, without skipping a beat, they just dropped this bombshell, saying that CEO Lowery will not be able to join us on the conference call today, because last Friday he woke up with numbness on his left side and was admitted to the hospital for testing. The doctors found some swelling in his brain caused by localized bleeding. He underwent surgery. In short, he had brain surgery, and they just sort of dropped it right into the earnings release, and we feel bad for Lowery, and apparently, he's making a nice recovery, but it's a little strange just to drop it in like that, I thought.

CAFFERTY: Yes, very strange, unusual.

SERWER: Unusual, in fact.

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome, Jack.

CAFFERTY: On to the "Cafferty File."

Several dozen partygoers at Sunday's Splash Day Event...

HEMMER: There you are. There you go. There's the smiling.

CAFFERTY: ending up in Texas' Lake Travis, much like I have here. A barge capsized when the people onboard all moved to one side of the boat as it approached Texas' only nude beach. Sixty people fell into the water in the lake's Hippie Hollow area. Two women were treated for minor injuries.

Splash is a Semiannual Event sponsored by the gay and lesbian groups down there.

SERWER: That's a lot of stuff going on in that story.

CAFFERTY: Yes, very busy, busy, busy down there in Texas. Got your gay and lesbian outing there at the nude beach.

Convicted felons in Oregon's prisons can get their own flat- screen TVs mounted in their cells. Look at this picture.

SERWER: Sweet.

CAFFERTY: This is supposedly incentive for good behavior. They buy the TVs with money earned working in the prison. You have to do 25 years before you can earn enough money to get a TV. Officials say that they were chosen for practical reasons. Bulky tube TVs have parts that can be used as weapons and hollow spaces where prisoners can hide stuff. But the flat screen TVs are made of clear plastic, and they say it cuts down on the number of inmates who go to the common room and argue about what to watch on TV.

HEMMER: Are you buying that?

CAFFERTY: Flat screen TVs in the prison cells in Oregon.

SERWER: Super plasma.

CAFFERTY: A trip to eastern Europe could save you thousands of dollars on your dental bill. The Vita Medical Dental Institute is urging Americans to go to Poland to get your dental work done. "Chicago Tribune" quotes the company's CEO saying, "If you are going to Poland anyway, why not take care of your tooth decay."

(CROSSTALK)

CAFFERTY: Yes, so far they've treated 15 Americans in three months. Not exactly land office business. U.S. medical officials warn, though, be careful because it's very tough to get the follow-up visits that you may need.

SERWER: Well, if you're going back to Poland.

CAFFERTY: If you have several trips to Poland planned...

SERWER: Then that would make a lot of sense for all of those people who have those travel plans.

CAFFERTY: Did Microsoft really work on the development of that...

SERWER: No, well he invested in a company that...

CAFFERTY: Oh.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Good start-up company.

SERWER: Jack?

CAFFERTY: What?

HEMMER: Good file.

CAFFERTY: Why thank you, Bill.

SERWER: Very good, I like that.

HEMMER: After that wonderful introduction, you came through, as you always do.

CAFFERTY: I really wish you wouldn't do that.

HEMMER: And that's why we do it.

CAFFERTY: I know you.

SERWER: When is the next train leaving to Texas? That's what I want to know.

HEMMER: We're going to let you on, get on board.

In a moment here, on the defense of a report of mistreatment in Abu Ghraib. That prison west of Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was the only facility where interrogation operation were taking place, and this is the only facility where there were infractions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: In a moment, more from the commander, the former commander of military police at U.S. prisons throughout the country of Iraq, her thoughts and her reaction.

Interesting comments to us here at AMERICAN MORNING. Back in a moment, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 4, 2004 - 08:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. 8:30 here in New York. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Heidi is in for Soledad today. In fact, you're here all week, correct?
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: I'm here all week.

HEMMER: Soledad's out until Friday, until next week, so it's good to have you here.

COLLINS: Well, thank you very much.

HEMMER: We have plenty to talk about.

COLLINS: Yes, we certainly do. In fact, just this morning, we've seen the first moving pictures of Thomas Hamill since he escaped his Iraqi captors. There he is there. But not far from his Mississippi home, there is no celebration. Sergeant Jeff Dayton is not coming home from Iraq. We'll have his story coming up in just a bit.

HEMMER: Also this hour here, yesterday we saw Dr. Gupta eating fire. Today, he's stepping into more danger. If you've ever wondered how these stunts are done -- some call them circus acts -- stay with us in a moment here. Sanjay's been to the circus. He'll stop by.

COLLINS: What happened to him? I used to know him.

HEMMER: You got a neurosurgeon over here and you got a guy eating fire. So we'll ask him about that very subject.

COLLINS: As long as he doesn't combine the two in the operating room, we're good.

All right, want to move on to the news of the morning. The first wildfires of the season are raging in Southern California. Live pictures now coming to us from KTTV. You are looking at an area called Corona, about a 1600-acre blaze going on there. Firefighters are battling blazes scattered from Los Angeles to San Diego County. Hundreds of people have been ordered to evacuate and dozens of homes are threatened.

Triple digit temperatures and erratic winds have made fighting the fires more difficult. These pictures coming to us just moments ago from KABC Los Angeles County, and Tim Mecula (ph) there.

The so-called Mideast quartet will try to revive a stalled road map to peace. U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan is hosting today's meeting in New York. He'll be joined by senior representatives from the U.S., the European Union and Russia. The peace plan has been dashed in recent weeks, but continued violence and a rejection of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Gaza withdrawal plan.

Mamdu Makmun Salim (ph), a former top aide to Osama bin Laden, is sentenced to 32 years behind bars for stabbing a corrections officer. Salim still faces trial and could life in prison if he is found guilty for his reported role in the 1998 U.S. embassy terrorist bombings in Africa.

And the Material Girl and her husband head to court in California over a lawsuit stemming from their movie "Swept Away." Madonna and Guy Ritchie are expected to tell the judge the box office bomb was completely their own idea. A man is suing them for $10 million, though. He claims the concept to remake the Italian film was swept idea, was an idea he pitched to Madonna back in 1997.

HEMMER: Did you hear Carol Costello earlier on "DAYBREAK?" I didn't know anyone wanted to claim that.

COLLINS: Probably true. I have not seen that.

HEMMER: That's right. I have not either. I think we're saving our money wisely.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: Mississippi native Thomas Hamill who we saw earlier today for the first time since his escape from Iraqi captors expected to be back in the U.S. before the end of this week. In fact, his wife is due to arrive in Germany on Wednesday.

Bob Franken is in Hamill's hometown in Macon, Mississippi with more on his story, as well as another Mississippi family going through very different emotions today.

Bob, good morning there.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

This is the story of two men from the same part of Mississippi. Returning from Iraq, coming back to very different homecomings.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Two front page stories from Iraq in the local paper. One describes Tommy Hamill's escape from captivity and the exhilarating relief back home in Macon, Mississippi.

HAMILL: I will let you know I've spoke with my husband. He is fine. He's doing well.

FRANKEN: Less than 40 miles away in Columbus, Mississippi, the other story of another family and the knock on the door with crushing news. JIM DAYTON, FATHER OF JEFF DAYTON: When those three sergeants came in and told me about Jeff, I mean my heart just felt like it was going to explode.

FRANKEN: Sergeant Jeff Dayton was another of the hundreds killed in Iraq his life now searingly painful memories of letters, pictures.

JIM DAYTON: I'll never get to talk to him again. I'll never get to hug him and it's just a helpless feeling.

JEREMY DAYTON, BROTHER OF JEFF DAYTON: I'm still in disbelief that it even happened. When I first found out I just, I don't know, I couldn't imagine going on.

FRANKEN: Jeff was a hero to his younger brother Jeremy. The family is trying to cope with his loss by telling the world how proud they were of him, they are of him, yet embracing the spirit of the celebration down the road.

JEREMY DAYTON: It feels good knowing that some people can get some relief.

FRANKEN: But now the first questions are registering.

JIM DAYTON: Once you lose a son, I don't know it's funny, you have to think, gee, this is -- you feel helpless and it's almost senseless.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Tommy Hamill will be coming back here to Macon to a parade. Jeff Dayton returns to Columbus, Mississippi down the road for final farewells -- Bill.

HEMMER: Bob, thanks for that sobering report, again out of Mississippi -- Heidi.

COLLINS: The fallout is continuing from the alleged mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq. The classified report on the alleged abuses obtained by CNN says, quote -- "egregious acts and grave breaches of international law occurred at the Abu Ghraib Prison."

So how common is the use of abuse and even abuse on enemy prisoners during wartime.

Former U.S. Army Colonel David Hackworth served in Vietnam and the Korean War. He's also written the book "Steel My Soldiers' Hearts." He joins us this morning.

Thanks so much for being with us, colonel. Appreciate your time this morning.

What do you make of what happened at this prison? And of course we are not saying that torture went on here. The alleged abuse, how do you see it when you look at those pictures? COL. DAVID HACKWORTH (RET.), U.S. ARMY: There's an old Army saying, that there are no bad units, only bad leaders. This is a reflection of bankrupt leadership from maybe the White House, but certainly the secretary of defense, right down to the corporal in charge of a particular detail within that prison. It reflects that the unit was not well disciplined, was not well trained, and didn't have even adult supervision.

COLLINS: You had a chance to listen a little bit earlier today to Brigadier General Janice Karpinski, of course the woman in charge of the prison. She agrees that there are just bad people, but she said this was not bad leadership. What do you make of that?

HACKWORTH: She's wrong. I can't believe a military police general would be running in this direction. She was the general in charge. She should have been down there. There were reports within her headquarters months before.

I have an organization called SFTT.org. We have been advertising on our Web site to the members of the units involved for months that -- to come to us with the inside information, and we've been break this story for months.

This thing is just not a sudden occurrence. The first atrocity known was a year ago, May of '03. You'd think that would have rang some alarm bells at the senior headquarters, and that's why I say the top generals and maybe the secretary of defense are responsible. They should have said, wait, in May of '03 we had these atrocities, let's get in there and investigate. Why didn't they?

COLLINS: All right, let's talk about specifics a little bit with your experiences in your career. How effective would you say abuse or torture -- and abuse meaning sleep deprivation, all these different things we've heard about -- how effective is that? Aren't the prisoners just going to basically tell their captors exactly what they want to hear in order to get the pain to stop, if you will?

HACKWORTH: I think you are right. I played this game eight years on battlefields, and i've gone by the simple rule, but for the grace of God there go I. If I took a prisoner, I treated him well, gave him a cigarette, gave him a can of cigarettes and some water, and the guy sang like a canary.

But if you start torturing people and doing some of the insidious things that good soldiers don't do. If we have 150-odd thousand soldiers in Iraq right now who have done such a valiant job, few of those people are these kind of animals. Few of those people would do these kind of things. But these kind of things wouldn't be done you didn't have inept leadership, and that's what went down here.

COLLINS: All right, very good point to make this morning. We certainly appreciate your time.

Colonel Hackworth, thanks once again -- Bill.

HEMMER: In a moment here, Heidi, what makes people risk life and limb to perform amazing feats?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish I had someone here that wanted to learn how to do this. I could teach them and -- hey, doctor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: A doctor is on call in a much different way. Sanjay in his "Life Beyond Limits" series in a few moments. Today, the issue is glass on the skin.

COLLINS: And getting tough with a Microsoft chief. Andy joins us with more on Bill Gates' huge fine.

Also, the Midwest bus tour continues today for the White House and the president. What do out of work Americans in Ohio and Michigan have to say for him? Up next, here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: In his new series, "Life Beyond Limits," Dr. Sanjay Gupta gets brave, treating us to some truly amazing feats and telling us what drives people to such extremes. Today, Sanjay gets a lesson in the art of glass walking. He was breathing fire yesterday, or swallowing fire, or something like that.

What's on the diet today? Good morning.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you as well.

What we're going to see today really falls more into the category of illusion. It is glass walking, the same principle for hot coal walking, all sort of stuff. The key is really in preparation and in mental willpower more than anything else. But it's worth saying as well, that everything we're going to be showing you this week, including what we show you today, is dangerous. I learned from experts for quite awhile before I actually did it myself. Here's what I found out.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA (voice-over): Todd Robins, the star of a one-man show called "Carnival Knowledge" knows how to eat a light bulb, and he likes to walk on broken glass. Except walk isn't quite the word.

TODD ROBBINS, SIDESHOW PERFORMER: And the thing about this is it's not that difficult to learn.

As a matter of fact, I wished I had someone here that wanted to learn how to do this. I could teach them, and, hey, doctor.

Walking over the broken bottles in your shoes is not that impressive.

GUPTA (on camera): You're a good teacher. I trust you now.

(voice-over): Would I live to regret those words?

ROBBINS: The fact is, we've got a nice sharp point there. Therefore, you, for the most part, want to step on it square on. If there's any point you feel is too jagged and pushing into your foot, you just relieve the weight off of that and put it on somewhere else it feels a little bit better.

GUPTA (camera): But you don't go side to side.

ROBBINS: Try not to go side to side. You are going to lean on me, doctor, just so you can balance yourself, because balance is a very important thing. You don't know what you are kind of getting into this, just so you can just use my shoulder there as a little banister.

What I want you to do is just very lightly, just put the foot down there, and you'll find that it's not terribly pleasant, but you're not going to get cut, and that's all there is to walk over broken bottle. It basically feels like walk over gravel.

GUPTA: Not cut, not bleeding. It's not the most pleasant thing i've ever done.

ROBBINS: No, but it's not impossible.

GUPTA (voice-over): Baby steps. I couldn't bring myself to jump, but at least we both walked away without a scratch.

ROBBINS: Take a look at that one there. There you go, it's the real thing. There you go. Like a baby's bottom, aren't they?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: Somewhat of a test of faith, Bill, but you know a lot of that is in the preparation. More on illusion, as I said, really an act of physics.

HEMMER: But I want to see you take another step there, my friend. That was the easy part, with the hand on the shoulders.

GUPTA: I took a couple steps.

HEMMER: You say it's just physics and that's what keeps you safe. What you're suggesting then, If you don't pay attention to the physics, that's when a person can get hurt, correct?

GUPTA: That's exactly right. You are basically not putting any of your weight on any given point at any time. So even when I was just standing there, you're constantly moving your feet around to try and distribute the weight a little better.

HEMMER: What's up tomorrow? More science?

GUPTA: Yes, we've got some science behind a lot of this stuff, "Life Beyond Limits," looking at all these people and what the body is capable of, not only physically, but also mentally. Tomorrow, Tonya Streeter. She holds a record in free diving. You're not going to believe how far she can dive on a single breath of air, and how she does it, how she prepares.

HEMMER: Did you do that?

GUPTA: I did a little something, too.

HEMMER: Did you?

GUPTA: Well, we'll just leave it at that, as a little teaser.

HEMMER: Some folks across town in the control room wanted to know that, OK, so you're on the record.

Thank you, Sanjay. Sunday night, Sanjay's primetime special this weekend, "Life Beyond Limits." An hour comes your way of all the things he checked out. Out of Coney Island mostly, right?

GUPTA: That's right.

HEMMER: All right, terrific, 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 on the West Coast Sunday evening. Good to see you, Sanjay -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Still to come this morning, Bill Gates hit with another fine. But is it only chump change for this billionaire? That's next, here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Ladies and gentlemen, once again, Mr. Jack Cafferty is in the house today.

Good morning, Jack.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You know, they didn't treat me this way on "Live at 5:00."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Well, you're moving up in the world.

CAFFERTY: Quattrone, Gates, brain surgery and the markets. Doesn't get any better than that. Andy Serwer is here with all of those things, "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Is that a potpourri of business news.

CAFFERTY: You got it.

SERWER: Let's talk about yesterday. Let's check it out. A good day for the markets. Some minor economic reports sending the markets up higher. The big news, though, today is of course the fed, and Alan Greenspan and company are going to be meeting today. They'll be a statement from The Fed at 2:15 about interest rates. Don't expect any movement there, but expect the statement to change with regard to being patient about interest rates. They won't be patient about inflation anymore. They're going to be watching it like a hawk.

Let's talk about Frank Quattrone, the CSFB kingpin who was found guilty yesterday, three counts of obstruction of justice, Feds looking into allocation of IPOs by his firm. He's looking at perhaps two years, Jack.

CAFFERTY: All because of e-mails.

SERWER: He said "time to clean up the files," that was his e- mail. The first and only Wall Street guy to be found guilty in all of the stuff over the past couple of years.

Bill Gates fined $800,000 yesterday, really a technical thing here. He didn't file a report with the feds showing that he had bought more of a biotech firm Icos. They helped develop Cialis, by the way, quite a little company there.

CAFFERTY: I had no idea.

SERWER: Yes, and actually I talked to a source close to the situation...

CAFFERTY: That's not software, is it?

SERWER: Oh, OK. I just pitched the ball down the middle of the plate and Jack Cafferty hits the baseball, he hits it. Good for you. A source close to the situation said he got bad advice from the lawyers. Got to blame the lawyers.

And here's an interesting one, Clearchannel Communications, the nation's largest radio company, announcing earnings today. That's fine. They did pretty well. But then also, without skipping a beat, they just dropped this bombshell, saying that CEO Lowery will not be able to join us on the conference call today, because last Friday he woke up with numbness on his left side and was admitted to the hospital for testing. The doctors found some swelling in his brain caused by localized bleeding. He underwent surgery. In short, he had brain surgery, and they just sort of dropped it right into the earnings release, and we feel bad for Lowery, and apparently, he's making a nice recovery, but it's a little strange just to drop it in like that, I thought.

CAFFERTY: Yes, very strange, unusual.

SERWER: Unusual, in fact.

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome, Jack.

CAFFERTY: On to the "Cafferty File."

Several dozen partygoers at Sunday's Splash Day Event...

HEMMER: There you are. There you go. There's the smiling.

CAFFERTY: ending up in Texas' Lake Travis, much like I have here. A barge capsized when the people onboard all moved to one side of the boat as it approached Texas' only nude beach. Sixty people fell into the water in the lake's Hippie Hollow area. Two women were treated for minor injuries.

Splash is a Semiannual Event sponsored by the gay and lesbian groups down there.

SERWER: That's a lot of stuff going on in that story.

CAFFERTY: Yes, very busy, busy, busy down there in Texas. Got your gay and lesbian outing there at the nude beach.

Convicted felons in Oregon's prisons can get their own flat- screen TVs mounted in their cells. Look at this picture.

SERWER: Sweet.

CAFFERTY: This is supposedly incentive for good behavior. They buy the TVs with money earned working in the prison. You have to do 25 years before you can earn enough money to get a TV. Officials say that they were chosen for practical reasons. Bulky tube TVs have parts that can be used as weapons and hollow spaces where prisoners can hide stuff. But the flat screen TVs are made of clear plastic, and they say it cuts down on the number of inmates who go to the common room and argue about what to watch on TV.

HEMMER: Are you buying that?

CAFFERTY: Flat screen TVs in the prison cells in Oregon.

SERWER: Super plasma.

CAFFERTY: A trip to eastern Europe could save you thousands of dollars on your dental bill. The Vita Medical Dental Institute is urging Americans to go to Poland to get your dental work done. "Chicago Tribune" quotes the company's CEO saying, "If you are going to Poland anyway, why not take care of your tooth decay."

(CROSSTALK)

CAFFERTY: Yes, so far they've treated 15 Americans in three months. Not exactly land office business. U.S. medical officials warn, though, be careful because it's very tough to get the follow-up visits that you may need.

SERWER: Well, if you're going back to Poland.

CAFFERTY: If you have several trips to Poland planned...

SERWER: Then that would make a lot of sense for all of those people who have those travel plans.

CAFFERTY: Did Microsoft really work on the development of that...

SERWER: No, well he invested in a company that...

CAFFERTY: Oh.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Good start-up company.

SERWER: Jack?

CAFFERTY: What?

HEMMER: Good file.

CAFFERTY: Why thank you, Bill.

SERWER: Very good, I like that.

HEMMER: After that wonderful introduction, you came through, as you always do.

CAFFERTY: I really wish you wouldn't do that.

HEMMER: And that's why we do it.

CAFFERTY: I know you.

SERWER: When is the next train leaving to Texas? That's what I want to know.

HEMMER: We're going to let you on, get on board.

In a moment here, on the defense of a report of mistreatment in Abu Ghraib. That prison west of Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was the only facility where interrogation operation were taking place, and this is the only facility where there were infractions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: In a moment, more from the commander, the former commander of military police at U.S. prisons throughout the country of Iraq, her thoughts and her reaction.

Interesting comments to us here at AMERICAN MORNING. Back in a moment, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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