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American Morning

Condition of Former Hostage Thomas Hamill; How Abuse of Prisoners Affect U.S. Mission in Iraq

Aired May 04, 2004 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Southern California. Thousands of acres have been scorched. Firefighters there battling blazes from L.A. down to Dan Diego County. Hundreds of people have been ordered to get out. Dozens of homes are threatened today. The start of the fire season was declared earlier than usual this year. Officials concerned especially about the hot and dry weather, among other factors, in the American West.
Two more U.S. soldiers have been injured in Iraq. It happened earlier today when a military convoy came under fire near Najaf. U.S. forces there were getting ready to set up a checkpoint near an airfield when a rocket propelled grenade was fired on a tank. The wounded were evacuated north to Baghdad.

Turkish authorities say they have charged nine suspects in connection with an alleged bombing plot at next month's NATO summit. President Bush expected to be among the world leaders attending that conference. The men were among about two dozen suspects taken into custody in raids around the country. Police also confiscated weapons, bomb making materials and computer parts. The militants are suspected members of an organization linked to al Qaeda.

Frank Quattrone, a star investment banker during the 1990s Internet stock boom, has been found guilty of obstructing the investigation in a federal retrial of his case. He was found guilty of sending an e-mail to colleagues at Credit Suisse First Boston asking them to destroy documents. Sentencing is set for the eighth of September. Andy much more on this this half hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.

And the Rolls Royce rolling on yet again. The car company is celebrating a century on the road. A hundred years ago today, the very first meeting between Charles Rolls and Henry Royce took place. The meeting, which formed the world famous company, took place at the Midland Hotel in Manchester, England. That high end luxury car driven around the world and it looks good, too.

COLLINS: My, awfully shiny, aren't they?

HEMMER: Yes. And any time you catch that thing in your rearview mirror, it's like wow, look at that thing behind us.

COLLINS: Oh, you mean you don't drive one?

HEMMER: No.

COLLINS: Yes, that'd be a no.

HEMMER: No, no, no.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: Thomas Hamill, the Mississippi man who spent three weeks as the hostage of Iraqi insurgents, said this morning he's looking forward to being reunited with his wife. We got our first look at Hamill this morning during an appearance at a U.S. medical facility in Germany, where he's being treated for a gunshot wound to his right forearm.

Chris Burns is standing by in Landstuhl, Germany now with more on all of this.

Quite an exciting day for the Hamill family -- Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, definitely. Mr. Hamill is here being cared for by the U.S. military at this U.S. military hospital, a byway for a lot of U.S. soldiers on their way home after being injured. He's being cared for by doctors who say that he does have a pretty serious injury in his right arm after being shot. He will require more surgery. In fact, they say that he had surgery in captivity, in fact. But he's going to need more surgery when he goes back to the States.

They say that he's getting antibiotics right now, bandaged up, as we saw when he came out to say hello. He didn't answer any questions, but he did have a few things to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS HAMILL, FORMER IRAQI HOSTAGE: I am feeling well and having few problems with my injury. I'd like everyone to know that I (AUDIO GAP) and I am looking forward to reuniting with my wife in the morning. And thank you so very much and god bless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: Hamill said it was also very important to continue, for the American public to continue supporting the troops and those out there in Iraq risking their lives.

A couple of details coming out from his capture and captivity, according to doctors who spoke with him. He said that he felt when he was attacked, his convoy was attacked back on April 9, he felt a pop and burning sound, burning feeling on his arm. He quickly grabbed a sock off the dashboard to stop the bleeding on his arm. That might have saved his life.

And in the escape, he awoke this last Sunday to the sound of diesel engines. To him, he knew right away those were not Iraqi vehicles, those were U.S. military vehicles. Music to his ears. He popped his head out the door, saw what -- that it was actually that U.S. patrol, forced open the door enough to squeeze out and ran up to them -- back to you. COLLINS: And what a wonderful sound it must have been.

Chris Burns in Landstuhl, Germany.

Thanks so much, Chris.

HEMMER: More details emerging on the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners. A classified report on the alleged abuse was obtained by CNN. It says egregious acts and "grave branches of international law" occurred at the Abu Ghraib Prison. Six officers so far are receiving reprimands there and a number of others facing criminal charges or have been suspended.

More on what's happening there today in a moment.

But first, Britain is also facing allegations of abuse toward Iraqi prisoners.

Guy Raz has more on that story in London today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shocking images of what appears to be torture -- a British soldier urinating on an Iraqi captive, a machine gun pointed at his head, a rifle butt in his groin. But are they real or staged?

British military experts and a wide range of photo editors have identified what they say are at least 20 inaccuracies. The rifle pictured, an SA-80, was not issued to British soldiers in Iraq. The alleged captive isn't sweating or bleeding, signs that would otherwise indicate torture. The location of the photos suggests the inside of a Bedford truck, also not being used in southern Iraq by British forces.

COL. BOB STEWART (RET.), MILITARY EXPERT: If people did it and they're within our ranks, those of us that are very much against it, of course everyone, will want them in prison. If it's some kind of sickos' joke, I want them in prison, too.

RAZ: The "Daily Mirror" is defending the voracity of the pictures, hinting it may publish more. The newspaper claims it received the photos from two active duty soldiers. But a "Mirror" spokesperson declined to say whether the newspaper paid the men.

John Nichol, captured during the 1991 Gulf War, believes authenticity isn't the issue.

JOHN NICHOL, FORMER PRISONER OF WAR IN IRAQ: If we find out in a week's time or four week's time that they're not authentic, it doesn't matter, because the Arab world has seen them and it is turning Arab opinion, from both the British photographs and the American photographs, opinion is turning against the forces in Iraq. And that can only do immense damage to those troops trying to do their job as best they can.

RAZ: The best they can under increasingly hostile conditions. (END VIDEOTAPE)

RAZ: And, Bill, the debate continues to rage here in Britain over whether these photos are, in fact, authentic. Now, today the "Daily Mirror," the newspaper that originally published these photos, defending the authenticity of its -- of the photos. Other newspapers -- the "Daily Express" -- calling the "Mirror" "liars," saying that the photos actually endanger British soldiers.

The ministry of defense here in this country is saying it will launch an investigation. It's already begun to interrogate soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment to determine whether, in fact, these photos were or were not authentic -- Bill.

HEMMER: As that story continues in London, Guy Raz, thanks for that.

How will the alleged abuse of prisoners affect the U.S. mission currently in Iraq?

Fawaz Gerges, a professor at Sarah Lawrence College, here to talk about that here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Good morning, Professor.

FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: Welcome back here.

On our screen, this is what it said yesterday on the Al Jazeera Web site: "Abu Ghraib Prison was used for torture in Saddam's time. People ask now what's the difference between Saddam and Bush? Nothing."

What's the impact of statements like that in the Arab world?

GERGES: Well, the impact is, as you know, overwhelming. I think the alleged abuses and allegations will likely deepen Iraqis' suspicions to the U.S.-led occupation and complicate the administration's efforts to pacify Iraq and also to transfer authority to Iraqis at the end of June.

It's also likely, the allegation also likely to intensify, of course, opposition to American foreign policies in the Arab and Muslim world, and, of course, supply more ammunition to militant causes. But at the end of the day, Bill, here, it's hyperbole. I mean W., George W. Bush is not in the same league as Saddam Hussein. W., I mean George W. Bush, did not sanction the killing of 300,000 Iraqis; did not terrorize his people; did not pauperize his people.

While it's essential to criticize the decision to go to war and the conduct since then, I think it's essential to keep this point.

HEMMER: So, ultimately, then, what's the lingering thought in the Arab world, especially among the Iraqi people? Is it the second part of what you just said or is it the first part, the news of the day in these pictures?

GERGES: Well, unfortunately it's the second part. I mean among some Iraqis. But I think overall, I think Arab public opinion and Iraqi public opinion is deeply angered and outraged by the images. And I think what remains in the public imagination, in the popular imagination, is that the United States not only violating the human rights of Iraqis and the humanity of Iraqi prisoners, but the United States is not living up to its commitment to protect Iraqi prisoners.

Bill, I mean let's remember here, for our American audience, there are more than 10,000 Iraqis, more than 10,000 Iraqis being held by American troops in various detention facilities in Iraq. These prisoners are at the mercy of the American soldiers. They have no recourse, no legal recourse. And this is why it's essential that the United States must live up to its commitment under the Geneva Conventions to protect the human rights and the humanity of the Iraqi prisoners.

HEMMER: All the Iraqis know that Abu Ghraib was the most famous prison or infamous prison, rather, during Saddam's reign, whether it was the tension or, as the Al Jazeera Web site mentioned, whether it was torture. That is still seared in the minds and the hearts of so many Iraqi people today.

Do the reprimands of these soldiers, does it matter? Would it help if President Bush made another apology, like he did last Friday afternoon?

GERGES: Bill, it matters tremendously that the president himself gets up and says we do apologize for the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners. It's essential that the people who committed these terrible acts be held accountable.

But there are bigger questions, Bill. There are bigger questions for us to address.

The first question is we must find out how extensive and how systematic the abuses of Iraqi prisoners have been. And so far it seems to be it's much broader than the first accounts.

And, secondly, we must explain and find out why the system, why the system of checks and balances and the system of command and control has broken down.

And, thirdly, Bill, not only do we need to punish the people who committed these terrible acts, we must make sure that such terrible deeds do not occur in the future by creating means and mechanisms to adhere fully to the Geneva Conventions for the protection of the prisoners of war.

It's in our own vital interests, not just, not just, Bill, on the level of moral and human rights, but our own soldiers right now are being posited as evil.

HEMMER: Part of your answer indicates that the alleged abuse is going to get worse before it gets better? Is that what you're suggesting?

GERGES: Well, it seems to me the abuses, according to some American commanders and the American reports, are much broader and systematic. That is, they have been taking place since October, last October, 2003. And the abuses go much further than the few pictures that we have seen. And this is why it's essential to go beyond the photos to determine how extensive, how systematic, how broad and establish the mechanism to prevent that.

HEMMER: Fawaz Gerges, thanks, from Sarah Lawrence College here.

Good to see you again -- all right, Heidi.

COLLINS: Still to come this morning, we are watching those wildfires raging in southern California. A live picture now of Los Angeles County. About 8,000 acres already charred. Mandatory home evacuations and those temperatures are going up. We'll keep our eye on it for you.

And could heightened skirmishes along the Pakistani border mean there's a bigger push to find Osama bin Laden? We'll talk to a reporter who's just back from the region.

Plus, Dr. Sanjay Gupta with a check on folks who perform an amazing feat with their feet, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan says it's too early to tell if a new U.S. strategy aimed at winning the hearts and minds of ordinary Afghans will yield the intelligence needed to capture Osama bin Laden. Lieutenant General David Barno has been implementing his new policy while increasing his troop strength from 11,000 to 15,000 over the past few months.

"U.S. News & World Report" writer Linda Robinson is just back from three weeks along the Afghan border. She's written about the experience in the magazine's latest issue. You see it there.

Good morning to you, Linda.

Thanks for being with us.

LINDA ROBINSON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Good morning.

COLLINS: I want to begin, if we could, about your first stop in Afghanistan -- Khost. I understand you were all bundled up and once you got there, the first thing you saw were actually rockets.

ROBINSON: Yes, that's right. I had to travel over land from Kabul to Khost because the military flights kept getting canceled. And so they said you're going to have to go over land if you want to get there. So my -- I hired a Pashtun guide and he said we have to dress you up like an Afghan woman. We went to the marketplace and bought a long dress, a veil and wrapped me up. And we rented an SUV with tinted windows so, to get me through this area, particularly the Khost Gardez Pass is very dangerous.

COLLINS: Now, this was your first trip there.

ROBINSON: Yes.

COLLINS: How did that make you feel? The second that you got there, they put you in the traditional dress, tinted windows. What were you expecting?

ROBINSON: Well, it was very strange to land in Kabul and see, I would guess, one out of 10 women not wearing the burka. There are still Afghan women who are very much covered up and one would have expected by now, with the Taliban having been out of power now almost three years, that women would be feeling comfortable. But that was my first clue that there's still a lot of fear in that society.

And for me personally, I mean of course it's very strange as a Western woman. But my job was to get out to that base and get embedded with the U.S. troops on the base so I could cover their activities.

Once I was there, the very first night -- well, they warned me there had been a rocket attack the night before and so they said if you're -- if you hear rockets or you hear a siren, come to the command post. Get your vest and helmet. And that's what happened the very first night.

So it was a quick wake up call to the fact that there's a lot more activity on the border. We're very used to hearing about Iraq, but this is a very -- there are a lot of skirmishes going on.

COLLINS: Well, let's talk about that for a minute. In fact, the new policy that General Barno has put into place, pretty quickly, in fact, is this hammer and anvil approach.

Talk to us about that and what it means.

ROBINSON: Yes. Well, in broadest terms, the strategy is to flush out what they estimate to be 400 to 600 al Qaeda-Taliban elements on the Pakistani side and flush them across over the border into Afghanistan, where they have troops scattered out. And his strategy has really been to both disperse the troops, both conventional and special forces units, in small units and then draw fire, in essence, by having them out there in these very remote areas so that they can actually locate these 10, 15, up to two dozen -- one of the firefights while I was there was a four and a half battle -- hour battle with about two dozen people who had come over from Pakistan.

COLLINS: But General Barno did just say something yesterday that is raising at least a few questions. He said we have some concerns that the Pakistani operation could go in the wrong directions.

What exactly is he concerned about here?

ROBINSON: This is -- and I started off my trip -- before I got to Afghanistan, I was in Pakistan, and it immediately became clear to me how fragile President Musharraf's position is, because he's got a lot of opposition in the society in general, but particularly in that tribal area. He's not getting a lot of cooperation. In fact, we were told that the tribal police they're working with have tipped off three different operations and let the population know so that people could escape.

So there is a big concern as long as you have that sanctuary on the border, it is not a winnable fight there.

COLLINS: Very quickly before we let you go, U.S. troops think they're going to get Osama bin Laden?

ROBINSON: You know, it was great to be on the ground and see the troops work. It's hot and tedious work, village to village. And my own conclusion is mountainous land, mud walled compounds, madrassas, he could be hiding anywhere.

COLLINS: Still looking.

All right, Linda Robinson, "U.S. News & World Report," thanks for your time this morning.

Appreciate that.

ROBINSON: Thanks.

COLLINS: Bill.

HEMMER: Heidi, in a moment here, much more on the fallout from allegations of prisoner abuse in Iraq. And we will go live to the hometown of Thomas Hamill. The former hostage will be home soon.

Back in a moment after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: We're going to check in with Jack now, the Question of the Day.

CAFFERTY: How do you feel? Are you all right?

COLLINS: I'm all right. Thanks for asking.

CAFFERTY: Everything OK?

COLLINS: Things that happen during commercial breaks that people don't need to know about.

CAFFERTY: Yes, I hear it. Three hours is a long time, isn't it?

HEMMER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: The race to the White House will cost more than a billion dollars -- a billion dollars, the "Los Angeles Times" reporting that story. Senator John Kerry launched a $25 million ad campaign yesterday and the spots tell his life story -- first I was a little boy and then I went in the Army and now I'm in the Senate. I mean it's riveting stuff.

President Bush, on the other hand, on a two day bus tour through Michigan and Ohio, attempting to reach working class voters, many of whom aren't working. More than 500,000 people in those two states have lost their jobs.

Well, the question is this: how well do the campaign tactics work for the candidates?

Kurt in Austin, Texas says: "I think the political advertising from Kerry is not aimed at those without health care or jobs. Those voters are more likely to vote for Kerry anyway. Kerry's advertising, targeted at the 30 percent of swing voters that have seen nothing but negatives on Kerry from the Bush campaign."

David in Lexington, Kentucky: "Let the mud slinging continue. After all, that's their method of campaigning. Each candidate attacks the other and then tries to legitimize their Neanderthal tactics with the same standard empty promises."

Debbie in Weatherford, Oklahoma: "Jack, it's just like "American Idol" because instead of talent and merit, it's all about popularity. Do you think Paula, Randy and Simon will be free to conduct the debates?"

And Steve writes from Philadelphia: "Jack, how can you complain about candidates spending money on TV ads? A nice chunk of the $25 million the Kerry campaign is spending will go to CNN, thereby helping you keep your job. And who's job is more important than that?"

Steve, you have a very valid point, actually.

HEMMER: Yes, he does. Both campaigns know the month of May is the time you need to get to the undecided voters, because the American public leaves for the summer time. They go to the pool when the kids get out of school and they go to camp. They go on vacation. They check out till the conventions in late summer.

CAFFERTY: I check out when I see those ads.

HEMMER: Yes?

CAFFERTY: They just -- they just make my teeth hurt.

COLLINS: If Randy were there, though.

CAFFERTY: Who?

COLLINS: If Randy were there from "American Idol" he'd say, "Yo, dog, we'll pitchee (ph)."

CAFFERTY: There you go.

COLLINS: Good, good. I like that. All right, we want to let you know what else is coming up today on AMERICAN MORNING.

The Mississippi town anxiously awaiting the eventual return of its hometown hero.

We'll go there live.

Stay with us right here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 4, 2004 - 08:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Southern California. Thousands of acres have been scorched. Firefighters there battling blazes from L.A. down to Dan Diego County. Hundreds of people have been ordered to get out. Dozens of homes are threatened today. The start of the fire season was declared earlier than usual this year. Officials concerned especially about the hot and dry weather, among other factors, in the American West.
Two more U.S. soldiers have been injured in Iraq. It happened earlier today when a military convoy came under fire near Najaf. U.S. forces there were getting ready to set up a checkpoint near an airfield when a rocket propelled grenade was fired on a tank. The wounded were evacuated north to Baghdad.

Turkish authorities say they have charged nine suspects in connection with an alleged bombing plot at next month's NATO summit. President Bush expected to be among the world leaders attending that conference. The men were among about two dozen suspects taken into custody in raids around the country. Police also confiscated weapons, bomb making materials and computer parts. The militants are suspected members of an organization linked to al Qaeda.

Frank Quattrone, a star investment banker during the 1990s Internet stock boom, has been found guilty of obstructing the investigation in a federal retrial of his case. He was found guilty of sending an e-mail to colleagues at Credit Suisse First Boston asking them to destroy documents. Sentencing is set for the eighth of September. Andy much more on this this half hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.

And the Rolls Royce rolling on yet again. The car company is celebrating a century on the road. A hundred years ago today, the very first meeting between Charles Rolls and Henry Royce took place. The meeting, which formed the world famous company, took place at the Midland Hotel in Manchester, England. That high end luxury car driven around the world and it looks good, too.

COLLINS: My, awfully shiny, aren't they?

HEMMER: Yes. And any time you catch that thing in your rearview mirror, it's like wow, look at that thing behind us.

COLLINS: Oh, you mean you don't drive one?

HEMMER: No.

COLLINS: Yes, that'd be a no.

HEMMER: No, no, no.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: Thomas Hamill, the Mississippi man who spent three weeks as the hostage of Iraqi insurgents, said this morning he's looking forward to being reunited with his wife. We got our first look at Hamill this morning during an appearance at a U.S. medical facility in Germany, where he's being treated for a gunshot wound to his right forearm.

Chris Burns is standing by in Landstuhl, Germany now with more on all of this.

Quite an exciting day for the Hamill family -- Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, definitely. Mr. Hamill is here being cared for by the U.S. military at this U.S. military hospital, a byway for a lot of U.S. soldiers on their way home after being injured. He's being cared for by doctors who say that he does have a pretty serious injury in his right arm after being shot. He will require more surgery. In fact, they say that he had surgery in captivity, in fact. But he's going to need more surgery when he goes back to the States.

They say that he's getting antibiotics right now, bandaged up, as we saw when he came out to say hello. He didn't answer any questions, but he did have a few things to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS HAMILL, FORMER IRAQI HOSTAGE: I am feeling well and having few problems with my injury. I'd like everyone to know that I (AUDIO GAP) and I am looking forward to reuniting with my wife in the morning. And thank you so very much and god bless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: Hamill said it was also very important to continue, for the American public to continue supporting the troops and those out there in Iraq risking their lives.

A couple of details coming out from his capture and captivity, according to doctors who spoke with him. He said that he felt when he was attacked, his convoy was attacked back on April 9, he felt a pop and burning sound, burning feeling on his arm. He quickly grabbed a sock off the dashboard to stop the bleeding on his arm. That might have saved his life.

And in the escape, he awoke this last Sunday to the sound of diesel engines. To him, he knew right away those were not Iraqi vehicles, those were U.S. military vehicles. Music to his ears. He popped his head out the door, saw what -- that it was actually that U.S. patrol, forced open the door enough to squeeze out and ran up to them -- back to you. COLLINS: And what a wonderful sound it must have been.

Chris Burns in Landstuhl, Germany.

Thanks so much, Chris.

HEMMER: More details emerging on the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners. A classified report on the alleged abuse was obtained by CNN. It says egregious acts and "grave branches of international law" occurred at the Abu Ghraib Prison. Six officers so far are receiving reprimands there and a number of others facing criminal charges or have been suspended.

More on what's happening there today in a moment.

But first, Britain is also facing allegations of abuse toward Iraqi prisoners.

Guy Raz has more on that story in London today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Shocking images of what appears to be torture -- a British soldier urinating on an Iraqi captive, a machine gun pointed at his head, a rifle butt in his groin. But are they real or staged?

British military experts and a wide range of photo editors have identified what they say are at least 20 inaccuracies. The rifle pictured, an SA-80, was not issued to British soldiers in Iraq. The alleged captive isn't sweating or bleeding, signs that would otherwise indicate torture. The location of the photos suggests the inside of a Bedford truck, also not being used in southern Iraq by British forces.

COL. BOB STEWART (RET.), MILITARY EXPERT: If people did it and they're within our ranks, those of us that are very much against it, of course everyone, will want them in prison. If it's some kind of sickos' joke, I want them in prison, too.

RAZ: The "Daily Mirror" is defending the voracity of the pictures, hinting it may publish more. The newspaper claims it received the photos from two active duty soldiers. But a "Mirror" spokesperson declined to say whether the newspaper paid the men.

John Nichol, captured during the 1991 Gulf War, believes authenticity isn't the issue.

JOHN NICHOL, FORMER PRISONER OF WAR IN IRAQ: If we find out in a week's time or four week's time that they're not authentic, it doesn't matter, because the Arab world has seen them and it is turning Arab opinion, from both the British photographs and the American photographs, opinion is turning against the forces in Iraq. And that can only do immense damage to those troops trying to do their job as best they can.

RAZ: The best they can under increasingly hostile conditions. (END VIDEOTAPE)

RAZ: And, Bill, the debate continues to rage here in Britain over whether these photos are, in fact, authentic. Now, today the "Daily Mirror," the newspaper that originally published these photos, defending the authenticity of its -- of the photos. Other newspapers -- the "Daily Express" -- calling the "Mirror" "liars," saying that the photos actually endanger British soldiers.

The ministry of defense here in this country is saying it will launch an investigation. It's already begun to interrogate soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment to determine whether, in fact, these photos were or were not authentic -- Bill.

HEMMER: As that story continues in London, Guy Raz, thanks for that.

How will the alleged abuse of prisoners affect the U.S. mission currently in Iraq?

Fawaz Gerges, a professor at Sarah Lawrence College, here to talk about that here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Good morning, Professor.

FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: Welcome back here.

On our screen, this is what it said yesterday on the Al Jazeera Web site: "Abu Ghraib Prison was used for torture in Saddam's time. People ask now what's the difference between Saddam and Bush? Nothing."

What's the impact of statements like that in the Arab world?

GERGES: Well, the impact is, as you know, overwhelming. I think the alleged abuses and allegations will likely deepen Iraqis' suspicions to the U.S.-led occupation and complicate the administration's efforts to pacify Iraq and also to transfer authority to Iraqis at the end of June.

It's also likely, the allegation also likely to intensify, of course, opposition to American foreign policies in the Arab and Muslim world, and, of course, supply more ammunition to militant causes. But at the end of the day, Bill, here, it's hyperbole. I mean W., George W. Bush is not in the same league as Saddam Hussein. W., I mean George W. Bush, did not sanction the killing of 300,000 Iraqis; did not terrorize his people; did not pauperize his people.

While it's essential to criticize the decision to go to war and the conduct since then, I think it's essential to keep this point.

HEMMER: So, ultimately, then, what's the lingering thought in the Arab world, especially among the Iraqi people? Is it the second part of what you just said or is it the first part, the news of the day in these pictures?

GERGES: Well, unfortunately it's the second part. I mean among some Iraqis. But I think overall, I think Arab public opinion and Iraqi public opinion is deeply angered and outraged by the images. And I think what remains in the public imagination, in the popular imagination, is that the United States not only violating the human rights of Iraqis and the humanity of Iraqi prisoners, but the United States is not living up to its commitment to protect Iraqi prisoners.

Bill, I mean let's remember here, for our American audience, there are more than 10,000 Iraqis, more than 10,000 Iraqis being held by American troops in various detention facilities in Iraq. These prisoners are at the mercy of the American soldiers. They have no recourse, no legal recourse. And this is why it's essential that the United States must live up to its commitment under the Geneva Conventions to protect the human rights and the humanity of the Iraqi prisoners.

HEMMER: All the Iraqis know that Abu Ghraib was the most famous prison or infamous prison, rather, during Saddam's reign, whether it was the tension or, as the Al Jazeera Web site mentioned, whether it was torture. That is still seared in the minds and the hearts of so many Iraqi people today.

Do the reprimands of these soldiers, does it matter? Would it help if President Bush made another apology, like he did last Friday afternoon?

GERGES: Bill, it matters tremendously that the president himself gets up and says we do apologize for the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners. It's essential that the people who committed these terrible acts be held accountable.

But there are bigger questions, Bill. There are bigger questions for us to address.

The first question is we must find out how extensive and how systematic the abuses of Iraqi prisoners have been. And so far it seems to be it's much broader than the first accounts.

And, secondly, we must explain and find out why the system, why the system of checks and balances and the system of command and control has broken down.

And, thirdly, Bill, not only do we need to punish the people who committed these terrible acts, we must make sure that such terrible deeds do not occur in the future by creating means and mechanisms to adhere fully to the Geneva Conventions for the protection of the prisoners of war.

It's in our own vital interests, not just, not just, Bill, on the level of moral and human rights, but our own soldiers right now are being posited as evil.

HEMMER: Part of your answer indicates that the alleged abuse is going to get worse before it gets better? Is that what you're suggesting?

GERGES: Well, it seems to me the abuses, according to some American commanders and the American reports, are much broader and systematic. That is, they have been taking place since October, last October, 2003. And the abuses go much further than the few pictures that we have seen. And this is why it's essential to go beyond the photos to determine how extensive, how systematic, how broad and establish the mechanism to prevent that.

HEMMER: Fawaz Gerges, thanks, from Sarah Lawrence College here.

Good to see you again -- all right, Heidi.

COLLINS: Still to come this morning, we are watching those wildfires raging in southern California. A live picture now of Los Angeles County. About 8,000 acres already charred. Mandatory home evacuations and those temperatures are going up. We'll keep our eye on it for you.

And could heightened skirmishes along the Pakistani border mean there's a bigger push to find Osama bin Laden? We'll talk to a reporter who's just back from the region.

Plus, Dr. Sanjay Gupta with a check on folks who perform an amazing feat with their feet, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

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COLLINS: The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan says it's too early to tell if a new U.S. strategy aimed at winning the hearts and minds of ordinary Afghans will yield the intelligence needed to capture Osama bin Laden. Lieutenant General David Barno has been implementing his new policy while increasing his troop strength from 11,000 to 15,000 over the past few months.

"U.S. News & World Report" writer Linda Robinson is just back from three weeks along the Afghan border. She's written about the experience in the magazine's latest issue. You see it there.

Good morning to you, Linda.

Thanks for being with us.

LINDA ROBINSON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Good morning.

COLLINS: I want to begin, if we could, about your first stop in Afghanistan -- Khost. I understand you were all bundled up and once you got there, the first thing you saw were actually rockets.

ROBINSON: Yes, that's right. I had to travel over land from Kabul to Khost because the military flights kept getting canceled. And so they said you're going to have to go over land if you want to get there. So my -- I hired a Pashtun guide and he said we have to dress you up like an Afghan woman. We went to the marketplace and bought a long dress, a veil and wrapped me up. And we rented an SUV with tinted windows so, to get me through this area, particularly the Khost Gardez Pass is very dangerous.

COLLINS: Now, this was your first trip there.

ROBINSON: Yes.

COLLINS: How did that make you feel? The second that you got there, they put you in the traditional dress, tinted windows. What were you expecting?

ROBINSON: Well, it was very strange to land in Kabul and see, I would guess, one out of 10 women not wearing the burka. There are still Afghan women who are very much covered up and one would have expected by now, with the Taliban having been out of power now almost three years, that women would be feeling comfortable. But that was my first clue that there's still a lot of fear in that society.

And for me personally, I mean of course it's very strange as a Western woman. But my job was to get out to that base and get embedded with the U.S. troops on the base so I could cover their activities.

Once I was there, the very first night -- well, they warned me there had been a rocket attack the night before and so they said if you're -- if you hear rockets or you hear a siren, come to the command post. Get your vest and helmet. And that's what happened the very first night.

So it was a quick wake up call to the fact that there's a lot more activity on the border. We're very used to hearing about Iraq, but this is a very -- there are a lot of skirmishes going on.

COLLINS: Well, let's talk about that for a minute. In fact, the new policy that General Barno has put into place, pretty quickly, in fact, is this hammer and anvil approach.

Talk to us about that and what it means.

ROBINSON: Yes. Well, in broadest terms, the strategy is to flush out what they estimate to be 400 to 600 al Qaeda-Taliban elements on the Pakistani side and flush them across over the border into Afghanistan, where they have troops scattered out. And his strategy has really been to both disperse the troops, both conventional and special forces units, in small units and then draw fire, in essence, by having them out there in these very remote areas so that they can actually locate these 10, 15, up to two dozen -- one of the firefights while I was there was a four and a half battle -- hour battle with about two dozen people who had come over from Pakistan.

COLLINS: But General Barno did just say something yesterday that is raising at least a few questions. He said we have some concerns that the Pakistani operation could go in the wrong directions.

What exactly is he concerned about here?

ROBINSON: This is -- and I started off my trip -- before I got to Afghanistan, I was in Pakistan, and it immediately became clear to me how fragile President Musharraf's position is, because he's got a lot of opposition in the society in general, but particularly in that tribal area. He's not getting a lot of cooperation. In fact, we were told that the tribal police they're working with have tipped off three different operations and let the population know so that people could escape.

So there is a big concern as long as you have that sanctuary on the border, it is not a winnable fight there.

COLLINS: Very quickly before we let you go, U.S. troops think they're going to get Osama bin Laden?

ROBINSON: You know, it was great to be on the ground and see the troops work. It's hot and tedious work, village to village. And my own conclusion is mountainous land, mud walled compounds, madrassas, he could be hiding anywhere.

COLLINS: Still looking.

All right, Linda Robinson, "U.S. News & World Report," thanks for your time this morning.

Appreciate that.

ROBINSON: Thanks.

COLLINS: Bill.

HEMMER: Heidi, in a moment here, much more on the fallout from allegations of prisoner abuse in Iraq. And we will go live to the hometown of Thomas Hamill. The former hostage will be home soon.

Back in a moment after this.

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COLLINS: We're going to check in with Jack now, the Question of the Day.

CAFFERTY: How do you feel? Are you all right?

COLLINS: I'm all right. Thanks for asking.

CAFFERTY: Everything OK?

COLLINS: Things that happen during commercial breaks that people don't need to know about.

CAFFERTY: Yes, I hear it. Three hours is a long time, isn't it?

HEMMER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: The race to the White House will cost more than a billion dollars -- a billion dollars, the "Los Angeles Times" reporting that story. Senator John Kerry launched a $25 million ad campaign yesterday and the spots tell his life story -- first I was a little boy and then I went in the Army and now I'm in the Senate. I mean it's riveting stuff.

President Bush, on the other hand, on a two day bus tour through Michigan and Ohio, attempting to reach working class voters, many of whom aren't working. More than 500,000 people in those two states have lost their jobs.

Well, the question is this: how well do the campaign tactics work for the candidates?

Kurt in Austin, Texas says: "I think the political advertising from Kerry is not aimed at those without health care or jobs. Those voters are more likely to vote for Kerry anyway. Kerry's advertising, targeted at the 30 percent of swing voters that have seen nothing but negatives on Kerry from the Bush campaign."

David in Lexington, Kentucky: "Let the mud slinging continue. After all, that's their method of campaigning. Each candidate attacks the other and then tries to legitimize their Neanderthal tactics with the same standard empty promises."

Debbie in Weatherford, Oklahoma: "Jack, it's just like "American Idol" because instead of talent and merit, it's all about popularity. Do you think Paula, Randy and Simon will be free to conduct the debates?"

And Steve writes from Philadelphia: "Jack, how can you complain about candidates spending money on TV ads? A nice chunk of the $25 million the Kerry campaign is spending will go to CNN, thereby helping you keep your job. And who's job is more important than that?"

Steve, you have a very valid point, actually.

HEMMER: Yes, he does. Both campaigns know the month of May is the time you need to get to the undecided voters, because the American public leaves for the summer time. They go to the pool when the kids get out of school and they go to camp. They go on vacation. They check out till the conventions in late summer.

CAFFERTY: I check out when I see those ads.

HEMMER: Yes?

CAFFERTY: They just -- they just make my teeth hurt.

COLLINS: If Randy were there, though.

CAFFERTY: Who?

COLLINS: If Randy were there from "American Idol" he'd say, "Yo, dog, we'll pitchee (ph)."

CAFFERTY: There you go.

COLLINS: Good, good. I like that. All right, we want to let you know what else is coming up today on AMERICAN MORNING.

The Mississippi town anxiously awaiting the eventual return of its hometown hero.

We'll go there live.

Stay with us right here on AMERICAN MORNING.

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