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Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush Stands By Donald Rumsfeld; E-Voting Threat to Democracy?
Aired May 06, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: U.S. troops in Iraq kill dozens of gunmen loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al- Sadr.
President Bush stands by his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, but apologizes for the abuse of prisoners in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families.
DOBBS: A rising number of Democrats are calling for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation. One of those Democrats, Senator Tom Harkin, is my guest tonight. Also joining us, Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. Rumsfeld testifies tomorrow before Congressman Hunter's committee.
Also tonight, the rising threat to our democracy from e-voting. Author Bev Harris says a breakdown of trust in our voting system would undermine respect for our laws.
And business with a conscience. A small business owner says he will not export jobs to cheap overseas labor markets under any circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't walk around this town and say I fired three people and sent their jobs to the Philippines.
DOBBS: Tonight, our special report, fighting to protect American jobs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, May 6. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today publicly apologized for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. President Bush said he is sorry for the humiliation suffered by those prisoners and their families. The president also gave his secretary of sort of, Donald Rumsfeld, his full support. He said Rumsfeld will remain in his Cabinet.
Senior White House correspondent John King reports -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, the White House tonight hoping the setting in which all of this played out will help calm somewhat the outrage across the Arab world over the abuse of those Iraqi prisoners.
It was in the Rose Garden where we heard from the president today. And standing at his side, King Abdullah of Jordan. The king was in the Oval Office to discuss Middle East peace efforts, but also, we are told, told the president that -- the devastating impact all this had had on the United States' image in the Arab world.
Mr. Bush emerging with King Abdullah. In his statement to the reporters in the Rose Garden, the president offering the direct apology that was missing yesterday when he first tried to quiet that Arab outrage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families. I told him I was equally sorry that people who have been seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, the president also discussing publicly what we reported yesterday about a private conversation with Secretary Rumsfeld in the Oval Office, the president making clear that he believes he was kept in the dark and he's mad about that, about the scope of the abuse of this prisoner abuse scandal. The president saying he should have known about the pictures of the abuses, should have known and been told by the Pentagon about a classified report detailing the abuses.
Still, the president making clear he was not happy about that, but making clear he stands by his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Secretary Rumsfeld has served our nation well. Secretary Rumsfeld has been the secretary during two wars. And he is -- he's an important of my Cabinet and he'll stay in my Cabinet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, the White House hoping that by saying, sorry, the president begins to abate somewhat the anger across the Arab world, the White House also hoping that this picture right here, shaking hands with a key moderate Arab ally, helps in the Arab world.
And King Abdullah, though he was quite reserved during this appearance, did try to help the president somewhat. He said these were heinous crimes committed against those Iraqi prisoners, but King Abdullah saying he trusted Mr. Bush and he said the president promised him that the United States was committed, Lou, to finding and punishing everyone responsible -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, King Abdullah delayed his trip in reaction to the president's endorsement of the Sharon plan on Gaza and the West Bank. Any developments on that issue today?
KING: Significant developments. The president retreated somewhat from what he said a few weeks ago when Prime Minister Sharon was here.
The president has always said the final issues need to be negotiated directly between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But he gave Prime Minister Sharon a letter saying he understood Israel might keep some settlements in the West Bank, that he understood that Palestinian refugees would not have the right to return to Israel.
Today, the president trying to quiet to that outrage as well by giving a separate letter to King Abdullah of Jordan, saying whether the issue be refugees, settlements, final borders, they need to be negotiated directly between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And, Lou, quite significantly, this president has all but ignored the current Palestinian prime minister.
Mr. believes he too close to Yasser Arafat. But the president, again under pressure from King Abdullah, said he would send the new Palestinian prime minister a letter as well revoicing his commitment to peace.
DOBBS: Did the White House, John, at any point say how they're going to reconcile the letters to the Palestinians, to King Abdullah and to Ariel Sharon, because they do not seem to be, at least on the face, consistent, but rather contradictory?
KING: They do appear to be contradictory.
Now, remember, the president did always says, even as he gave Prime Minister Sharpton that issue -- that letter, excuse me -- that he was not trying to prejudice the final negotiations. What almost everyone else in the world said, how could you say that after you said you recognize Israel's right to deny the refugees right of return, that you recognized Israel's right to keep some of the settlements?
Mr. Bush even back then was being somewhat contradictory, on the one hand giving that letter, on the other hand, saying negotiate this directly in the end. Now the White House believes it has backpedaled at least enough to get the parties to try to start talking again. The question, Lou, now is, is there enough trust of the president to do that? And is there -- the president still says, is there a Palestinian government with a commitment to reform that the Israelis will negotiate with?
DOBBS: John, thank you very much -- John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Well, the president showing consistency and constancy in his support for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, although a rising number of Democrats are calling for the secretary of defense to resign. Those Democrats include House Minority Leader Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi. Congresswoman Pelosi said Rumsfeld is -- quote -- "in denial about Iraq."
Capitol Hill correspondent Joe Johns will report on the rising pressure on Rumsfeld in Congress. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre tonight to report on the reaction from the Pentagon itself.
We go first to Joe Johns on Capitol Hill -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this was rough stuff on Capitol Hill today, a direct assault on the defense secretary by a number of people, including the House Democratic leader, others, including Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York, as well as Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa.
Republicans are calling it premature. They say it's politically motivated. And they say the actions taken by the Department of Defense in this activity were reasonable in consideration of the facts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS (voice-over): The day before Rumsfeld's public testimony on Capitol Hill, And a few Democrats were already calling for his head.
SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: For the benefit of the United States, for our country, I believe Mr. Rumsfeld has to resign.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: I am calling for Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation.
JOHNS: One Democrat said Congress should make him step down, if necessary.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: If the president doesn't fire the secretary, if he doesn't resign, I think it's the responsibility of this Congress to file articles of impeachment and force him to leave office.
JOHNS: The chorus put some Republicans in the position of defending Rumsfeld before he had even spoken.
SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: Would we have the right to call for somebody's resignation before we've even heard on what they have to say, or been briefed on what they did? Is that an American way to go about doing things or is it perhaps an expression of partisanship? I suggest that, to the extent it might be the latter, people should hold their fire and just wait until the facts come in.
JOHNS: But the substance of Rumsfeld's defense had already begun. Four Republican senators met with at the Pentagon today, among them, Senator John Cornyn of Texas.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: One, that he knows that he's got to hit head on and that's why he's going to have his public testimony tomorrow, but I was reassured that the Department of Defense and the secretary had acted appropriately in light of these initial allegations back in January leading up to the criminal charges on March the 20th.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: So while Republicans are defending the defense secretary, they're also saying there will be some tough questions in that hearing tomorrow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Joe, thank you very much -- Joe Johns from Capitol Hill.
In just a few moments, we'll be joined here by Senator Tom Harkin, who, as Joe Johns just reported, has called for Rumsfeld to deny. Also, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, will join us, Congressman Duncan Hunter, who says the defense secretary should stay on the job.
Secretary Rumsfeld spent today preparing for his congressional testimony tomorrow. Rumsfeld will testify before both the Senate and House Armed Services Committees.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre with that report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this was another one of those days at the Pentagon. Those calls for Rumsfeld's resignation came on a day when new photographs surfaced of the continued abuse at the Abu Ghraib Prison, these published by "The Washington Post."
One of them shows a female soldier from the 372nd M.P. Company holding a leash attacked to a naked prisoner. Other photographs showed unclothed prisoners shackled to their cells with hoods or women's underwear over their heads. It was left to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to issue the denouncements of these pictures today.
He filled in for Rumsfeld at a speech that was scheduled in Philadelphia. Rumsfeld took a pass on that so he could spend the day getting ready for his grilling on Capitol Hill tomorrow. We're told by his aides, plus some of the senators who met with him, that he's upbeat, that he's anxious to tell his side of the story, and that he believe he has a rational explanation for how the Pentagon has handled this.
For instance, why didn't he show the pictures to the president or know more about them? He said he didn't have them because they were evidence in a criminal investigation. They were locked away in Iraq. He did describe the nature of the pictures to some people. Why didn't that report go up to Capitol Hill sooner, the scathing Army investigation? That, again, was part of a criminal investigation and was working its way through the chain of command under procedures that limits who can see it and when.
But, still, he's got some more explaining to do, particularly, some of the members of Congress are miffed about the fact that the very day these pictures appeared on the "60 Minutes" broadcast, just hours before that, Rumsfeld briefed members in a closed-door session, didn't say anything about them. Clearly, at that point, he knew what was about to unfold. He may be asked, by the way, for an apology both for what happened at the prison and for failing to keep Congress informed.
Up to now, he has stopped short of giving an apology. We'll have to see what he does tomorrow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Has he at the very least apologized to President Bush, who today made it very clear he is mightily displeased with his secretary of defense on this issue?
MCINTYRE: We don't know.
DOBBS: We may find that out in the days ahead. Jamie McIntyre, we appreciate it. Thank you, our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
In Iraq today, U.S. troops dramatically stepped up their offensive against gunmen loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The soldiers took control of the office in Najaf and killed nearly 60 insurgents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): The insurgents did not defend the governor's office and American troops met no resistance. Then the insurgents fought back.
LT. COL. PAT WHITE, U.S. ARMY: We're now operating in a territory where the Mahdi Army is not used to us being. And what we're seeing and what we've seen over past half an hour is their reaction us to on their turf.
DOBBS: U.S. officials quickly installed a new governor of Najaf.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: I'm naming Adnan al- Zurufi as governor of Najaf. Governor Zurufi, a member of the Bani Hasan tribe, earned a degree in Islamic law at Al Feqih college, the Islamic jurisprudence college in Najaf. He is the right man for the job at this time.
DOBBS: In Karbala, insurgents fired rocket-propelled grenades at a U.S. patrol. The Americans killed six insurgents.
In Baghdad, insurgent ambushed U.S. troops. The Americans killed 19 insurgents. Near the coalition headquarters, a suicide car bomb exploded. And elsewhere in Baghdad, a roadside bomb detonated. Three American soldiers are among the dead.
In Sadr City, insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy. American soldiers killed 10 of the attackers. The insurgents have taken a new American hostage. An Arabic television network broadcast video today of Aban Elias, a civil engineer. His family identified him. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Next, we'll have more on the controversy about Secretary Rumsfeld. Senator Tom Harkin says it's time for him to resign. Senator Harkin is our guest. I will also talk with Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter, who gives Rumsfeld his full support.
President Bush's approval rating drops to the lowest level of his presidency. He and Senator Kerry are also in a statistical dead heat in campaign for the White House. I'll be joined by three of this country's top political journalists.
And the outsourcing industry trying to convince small business owners to export their jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. But some business owners, you'll be pleased to know, are not only saying no. In fact, they're saying hell no.
Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Senator Tom Harkin today called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Senator Harkin said Rumsfeld should go for the good of our country, the safety of our troops and our image around the globe.
Senator Harkin joins me now from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us.
HARKIN: Hi, Lou.
DOBBS: The scandal, the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, obviously upsetting to all of us. The president today has apologized. Would it be helpful to your viewpoint if Secretary Rumsfeld were to apologize? Would that in any way influence your judgment?
HARKIN: Well, words are one thing. We do owe an apology. And I'm glad the president today did apologize after this long wait. And it's right that we do apologize for these actions.
But the fact is that we have civilian control of the military. And it's the policies and actions and sort of the attitude of the secretary of state (sic) that I kind of think led to this. After all, it was Secretary Rumsfeld who kind of said that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply, who said we could hold prisoners incommunicado, who allowed interrogations to go beyond what Army regulations allow. This all adds up to kind of an atmosphere that just permits something like this to happen.
That's why I say, it really is time for Secretary Rumsfeld to step down.
DOBBS: Senator, as you know, some are saying that this is on your part and that of other Democratic lawmakers pure partisanship in an election year, rather than waiting to hear Secretary Rumsfeld testify, as he will tomorrow before the House and Senate Armed Services Committees. What's your reaction?
HARKIN: My reaction is that Rumsfeld testifies all the time. And I'm sure he'll have all kinds of reasons and he'll say that they're going to have an investigation, they're going to find out who is responsible. And I'm all for that.
We need investigations to find out who in the military should have known about this. We know that the International Red Cross had told the military in the past that they had problems there. Who dismissed all of this? How high up did it go? The investigation should go forward.
But the fact remains, the secretary of defense, through his actions, through his policies, through his statements, I believe, allowed something like this to happen. And that's why I say, words are one thing. Deeds are another. And I think the rest of the world needs to see that we're taking this, not just apologizing, but we're actually going to take action. And I think the most important action we can take is to get a new secretary of defense.
A new secretary of defense, you suggest. What about the entire chain of command that leads to Abu Ghraib Prison itself? What would you have the Army, U.S. military, do there?
HARKIN: Well, we've got to put in place policies that just will not permit this to happen in the future.
Lou, when I first saw these, it took me back 34 years, when I was a young staff person, and through some luck and the bravery of a South Vietnamese individual, I was able, with my camera, to document the existence of the tiger cages on Con Son Island off of the coast of Vietnam. I remember what happened to me. They tried to take my film away. They threatened me with lawsuits. I got fired and was told I would never work in Congress ever again, which I proved them wrong.
And they tried to cover up everything. But we got the pictures published and showed the world that in fact we had jurisdiction, supervision over these terrible conditions, these prisons where people were being tortured, killed, in clear violation of the Geneva Convention. And I would have thought we would have learned from the Vietnam War. I'm sorry that we've got to relearn it again.
DOBBS: Senator, today, House Majority Member Tom DeLay said the Democrats are using the Abu Ghraib Prison abuses for political purposes. And he said, in fact -- and I'd like to quote -- calling for Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation, in his judgment, is as bad a signal as saying the war is unwinnable.
How do you react?
HARKIN: Well, you know, again, it just takes me back 34 years to Vietnam. And when I took the pictures of the tiger cages, basically they said I was aiding and abetting the enemy, that this would give aid and comfort to the North Vietnamese.
And I said, no, it doesn't. It's trying to force us, the United States, to stand for what we basically are, a decent, humanitarian country, that we care deeply about fundamental human rights, that we believe in the Geneva Convention. And we shouldn't let any secretary of defense or anyone like that run away, steal from us what we are as a nation. And that's really what Secretary Rumsfeld has done.
DOBBS: Senator Tom Harkin, we thank you for being with us.
HARKIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: In just a few minutes, we'll be joined by Congressman Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, who has a view diametrically opposed to the views expressed by Senator Harkin. Congressman Hunter says there is no reason for Rumsfeld to resign his post as secretary of defense.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight: Do you believe President Bush did the right thing by apologizing for the treatment of Iraqi prisoners, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
DOBBS: Also ahead, President Bush says he is sorry for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. But will his apology help his sagging approval ratings? Three of the nation's top political journalists join me.
And electronic voting, is it a threat to the very future of our democracy? Bev Harris is the author of "Black Box Voting." And she's our guest.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The president's approval rating has dropped to the lowest level of his presidency, according to the latest Gallup poll; 49 percent of Americans now say they approve of how President Bush is handling his job, but that's down from 52 percent only two weeks ago; 48 percent say they disapprove.
That stark division is also reflected in the likely voters' choice for president; 49 percent said they would vote for Senator John Kerry; 48 percent now say they would reelect for President Bush.
Joining me now from Washington, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent, "Los Angeles Times," CNN political analyst Carlos Watson, and Alexis Simendinger, White House correspondent, "National Journal."
Thanks for being here.
And let me begin with you, Alexis.
The president has now apologized for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. What the likely impact on the political environment here domestically?
ALEXIS SIMENDINGER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "NATIONAL JOURNAL": It was interesting. It was a very strategic apology because of course the president could have done this yesterday. But standing next to King Abdullah of Jordan, the president thought that today was the right time to do it.
That message of apology was as much for the Arab world as it was for the domestic political audience. And so when you try to figure out whether the American public was waiting for the president to apologize, the president also worked in an apology to them, to the American public, knowing of course that they would be paying close attention.
DOBBS: Carlos, was it the right thing for the president to do?
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I wonder whether it will end being a day too late.
We'll see when some more polling comes out over the next week. And I think significantly, part of the question is not just nationally how will people react, particularly in his base among Republicans, but when you look at key states like Michigan that have a meaningful Arab- American population that last time was a relatively close race, some five points, will that make a difference? I think that will be an interesting thing to watch, Lou.
DOBBS: Ron, the fact is, it strikes me at least, unlikely that an apology or an embrace in point of fact from the president would influence Arab attitudes in the Middle East toward the United States. The region is decidedly anti-American. But domestically, in apologizing, has the president done the right thing politically?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's a small thing politically.
As you know, I believe that events matter more than arguments. And the reality the president is facing is that we have had a very rough time in Iraq, the highest level of casualties that we have experienced since the war began. And the American public is willing to accept casualties, Lou, if you look historically, as long as they feel they're being borne toward a purpose.
Right now, he's facing the risk that people see the wheels coming off in Iraq, this being just another example of that. And if that is the case, when people grow pessimistic about the prospects for achieving our mission, that's when they grow increasingly restive about the casualty level.
You saw that in the poll today, the approval rating on Iraq down to 42 percent, dragging down the overall approval rating under 50 percent to a level where he's vulnerable to Senator Kerry.
DOBBS: Secretary Rumsfeld, calls for a resignation, Alexis. We've got just a very short amount of time. How much trouble is, in your judgment, is Secretary Rumsfeld?
SIMENDINGER: From my point of view, Lou, the president's supposed dissatisfaction with Rumsfeld and the White House making that public was an effort to actually give Rumsfeld some protection.
He's supposed to go to Capitol Hill tomorrow. That was a strategic move to try to take the temperature down in Congress and try to give Rumsfeld some running room. The president is not so worried about Democratic criticism, but very much worried about Republican criticism. If his administration loses the support of his own party and Rumsfeld becomes the whipping boy for Iraq, as Ron was joint putting out, that is big, big trouble.
DOBBS: Two of the most distinguished Republican senators, Senators McCain and Warner, Carlos, very critical of the defense secretary. How important? What is the likely impact?
WATSON: Reminds me a lot of the Trent Lott situation a little over a year ago, where there was an outcry in the land, but maybe the most significantly outcry ultimately was within the Republican caucus.
And ultimately Lott went down. There was a sense not only of error, but maybe of arrogance in some ways. I wonder, as I hear Lindsey Graham speak, as I hear John Warner speak out, as I hear John McCain and others speak out, of whether or not it ultimately will be his own party members who take him down, if you will. The whipping boy I think Alexis said there's a possibility he could become.
But one other thing to add -- and, maybe, Ron, you're going to this direction -- it may not be enough.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the problem I think he has on Capitol Hill, he doesn't have a well of goodwill. They feel Secretary Rumsfeld has not shared information with them all the way through. A lot of Republicans don't feel that fondly toward him to begin with. On the other hand, President Bush doesn't like to remove people under pressure. He tends to view that as giving in to the other side. As you saw today, that very firm statement.
I thought what he was doing by putting out the story of him reprimanding Rumsfeld was trying to reestablishing the idea of the president being commander, exerting leadership here. That is the core of his argument for reelection, that he is a strong and decisive leader on the war on terror. At times he has looks a little passive. Handing things off to Mr. Brahimi, deferring to generals on how many troops we need. I think this was a clear statement saying I am in control, especially it came out he was informed of this basic problem in January. And it's not exactly clear exactly what he did in the interim either?
DOBBS: He being the secretary of defense?
BROWNSTEIN: The president. The president. We reported today, the secretary of defense informed him in January at least of the broad outlines of the problem. And the White House felt -- the president felt it was being investigated. And again, it gets to the issue of management style, whether the president is aggressively managing the details of these problems. I'm some of the same issues that came up on the August 6th briefing in 2001, what he did in response to getting the information. WATSON: Lou, there's an interesting comparison imerging...
DOBBS: Very quickly, Carlos.
WATSON: Remember, the president portrayed John Kerry as flip- flopper, that's a character issue. Emerging character issue for the president, his own judgment. Does he have the strong judgment to manage difficult international affairs. Look for that to become part of the conversation over the next month.
DOBBS: It certainly become reflected as an issue in the poll with a decline of 42 percent in Iraq and foreign policy in the latest Gallup Poll released today. Well, thank you very much, Alexis, Carlos, Ron, appreciate it.
Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee says there is no reason for Secretary Rumsfeld to resign tomorrow. Congressman Hunter will hear the testimony from the secretary.
Congressman Hunter, the chairman of that committee, joins me now. Thanks for being here.
There is a firestorm swirling around the secretary of state. Conflicting reports, you just heard Ron Brownstein of the "L.A. Times" talking about it, as to what the president knew in January about this situation and how the secretary has handled it. Are those questions that you're going to zero in tomorrow when the secretary appears before you?
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CHMN., ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Well, listen, Lou, there's two things we should be interested in right now. That's how the secretary of state handles combat, whether he's effective, in terms of working these two theaters of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, mainly in fighting the war against terrorism and how well he's doing, in terms of working with the team, that is with Congress, with the president. And as partners in carrying out this battle.
Let me tell you, Secretary Rumsfeld, has been effective in fighting this war. He was -- he astounded people with the speed with which he got to Baghdad, with lots of folks second-guessing him, when we made that first drive on Baghdad. We did, it with minimum casualties. He's smart. He works 15 hour days. And if you watch him, he has literally 100 issues that cross his standing up desk everyday. He has to handle these allies sometimes with us, sometimes not with us. He's got two major theaters of war. He now has a war that is concentrated on special op -- with respect to special operations, very complicated. And the idea he was supposed to focus all of his attention on these six people.
And so far, let's put this in context, this big storm you're talking about centers on six people identified so far who are being recommended for court-martials under article 32, of the UCMJ, that's as opposed to 135,000 people in theater, some of whom are in combat right now. My answer -- my two John friends John McCain and John Warner, let's keep our eye on the ball. The ball is bringing our people home safe. It's carrying out our mission in Iraq and being an effective military leader. Let's not try to shoot down a member of the president's team who is an effective war fighter.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, all respect, laying out the two conditions you put forward, one, working with the team, as you off styled it, in terms of the secretary of defense, numerous, you know most of their names, complainants from Capitol Hill on both the Senate side and the House, that this secretary of defense has not been forthcoming, that this administration has not been forthcoming and has not responded to entreaty and inquiry particularly on the part of the U.S. Senate on this war. And secondly in terms of conduct of the war at this point, this war right now, if you want to style it as occupation or post Saddam period, whatever, the United States is absorbing huge casualties at a time one would have expected to see quite a different direction in violence in Baghdad, don't you think, sir?
HUNTER: Well, Lou, is that very fierce contest. You have lots of people who are trying to hurt Americans in this theater. That's a fact of life. And that level of resistance and people coming in from the outside, and the level of resistance of the insurgents, remnants of the Ba'ath Party, none of that could be made to disappear by the secretary of defense. I'll tell you as chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, I've had great cooperation with the secretary. He's done a lot of things in this time. He's reformed the personnel system. He's given our people freedom to train on these bases. And every week during the war and on a very regular basis, we have briefings where I invite the full to come in under the direction of the speaker. The secretary comes in, gives us lots of time. I've had a good relationship and think most of the members of the committee have had a good relationship with this secretary.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, very quickly, tell us what you want to find out from Secretary Rumsfeld when he does appear before you committee tomorrow?
What are the burning issues for you?
HUNTER: Simply on this issue, you have six key military investigations on this issue now. Six, count them six. So far you only have six defendants. So, this entire storm generated lots of press and sold lots of Coca-Cola is based on six people. Now, I want to know, if under the UCMJ, the Military Justice System is marching ahead as it's supposed to be. And if that court-martial convening board is going to have an answer, have a recommendation in the next period of time, know what's happening. Also, what reforms are being taken in that system. Whether we're going to have more accountability, more posting of Geneva Convention regulations and army procedures which weren't posted. And I want to know how are the 135,000 people fighting the war doing right now. And I want to ask him about operations, casualties we're taking, things that we can do to get force protection to our people in theater. I want to make sure the kids, the 135,000 folks working honorably and courageously are being well served.
DOBBS: Amen. And I assume, I want to throw this to you, if I may, as a final question. I don't think any of us could agree more with your last point. But don't we also want to know how in the world chain of command could have permitted this kind of un-American conduct by whatever the number of soldiers that are involved, could have occurred?
Don't we want to know that, and what the responsibility for those actions are?
HUNTER: Oh, certainly, Lou. And beyond the six people who are doing this that have been identified so far, every -- every officer in the chain of command, up to general Karpinski, who is a bring commander, who said I had no idea, and I watched her on television, said I had no idea what was happening down there. I think she made at once the most exculpatory statement she can make and most incriminating. The worst thing a commander can say is I didn't know what my people were doing down there. And so, certainly, all of those people of have now had their careers terminated not because they knew anything about what was happening, because it happened on their watch. And that incidently, is a military standard much tougher than a corporate standard.
DOBBS: How high up does that standard apply?
HUNTER: I think you take -- you use judgment. As I told Nancy Pelosi's folks, she says Don Rumsfeld should resign, because out of 300,000 people in Iraq, six people apparently have committed crimes. She has a constituency of roughly 600,000 people as we all have in the U.S. Congress. If somebody gets murder in her district tomorrow, does that mean Nancy Pelosi resigns? And the answer is of course not, because there's not a connection causal connection or account ability connection. So, you take it up to where common sense and good judgment places it. I would say the brigade commander needs to know what's happening in her prison.
DOBBS: Congressman Duncan Hunter, Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, thanks for being us, sir.
Still ahead, the heaviest fighting in weeks in Iraq. Coalition troops move in on Iraqi insurgent strong holds. General David Grange, "On Point," next.
And Exporting America: community values, social responsibility, common sense. We're talking about outsourcing. And we've got some great news for you tonight. We'll have that special report for you.
And electronic voting in the future of democracy. California moves a step closer to outlawing e-voting. Bev Harris author of "Black Box Voting," she's our guest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The U.S. offensive against Muqtada al Sadr's gunmen has led to the hardest fighting in Iraq since the end of the siege of Fallujah. American troops have killed dozens of gunman in a series of coordinated attacks against al Sadr's strong holds in central Iraq. That assault is under way tonight.
And I'm joined by former General David Grange now, in "Grange on Point."
General, good to have you with us. David is this the push against al Sadr is this the resolution?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The push has already started weeks ago. This is getting a little bit more intense. It will continue to be squeezed. And Sadr is either going to be killed, captured or turned over to the Iraqi authorities for trial. He's being isolated from other Shi'ites. The start of that is happening. The other Shi'ite leaders do not like his attitude, and I think the people are getting tired of his militia.
DOBBS: Should we expect -- this has been an extraordinary bloody 30 days, are we to expect even more casualties in the days and weeks ahead?
GRANGE: Yes, sir, we are.
DOBBS: To the degree that is going to occur, is there anything that we can do at this point to diminish those casualties and succeed with lower casualties?
GRANGE: The key aspect of that, Lou, is getting the Iraqi leadership in that area, the other Shi'ite leaders to help work out solutions. And to convince him to either turn himself in or disband his groups. I think some of that can be done, but regrettably, some will have to die.
DOBBS: And today Senator Pat Roberts, a number of others, the chairman of the House -- Senate Intelligence Committee, said just level Abu Ghraib Prison, icon of the Saddam Hussein era, and now a stain on U.S. forces in Iraq.
Would you agree with doing that?
GRANGE: I do agree. I think it should be leveled immediately. Get rid of it. Plant roses over the site, build a memorial, anything, just remove the image. Everybody sees imaging on broadcast. They don't really understand many of the words that are stated, especially by Americans or other coalition leaders. Get rid of the image. It's a stain not only on Saddam, but also now on a few -- small group of bad American troopers. Get rid of it.
DOBBS: I just asked chairman, Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee about where the standard of responsibility should end, for what occurred.
What's your judgment?
GRANGE: Well, it's couple of things that you have to be careful of right now. And I think that's why you see some senior leaders being a little bit guarded with some of their comments, because it's what's called command influence. If there's command influence in a criminal case against soldiers that are accused of doing something very bad, as in this case, it can influence the outcome of the court. So they're very guarded for that reason. But I believe with Congressman Hunter, that this has to be -- this is a chain of command failure, no doubt about it. And it goes up at least as far as the commander in charge of the chain of command of prisons in that part of the world.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you sir.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Coming up next, a threat to democracy. Electronic voting could undermine our system of law. She's are guest next.
"Exporting America," a small businessman in Maine. He says outsourcing was never even a consideration. We'll have his story. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: California State Senate Committee has approved a ban against all electronic voting in the November election. A vote by the full state Senate could come as early as next week.
My next guest says the use of electronic voting machines could hurt our democracy.
Bev Harris, the author of "Black Box Voting," joining us tonight from Seattle, Washington.
Bev good to have you here. How important is the Senate -- California Senate decision next week.
BEV HARRIS, AUTHOR, "BLACK BOX VOTING: VOTE TAMPERING IN THE 21st CENTURY": Very important. Basicly what will happen with that is it will make the counties able to fight against it and the secretary of state's ruling to do the same thing.
DOBBS: And the secretary of state, there's quite a momentum building in California. Are we going to see this, in your judgment, move -- spread around the country?
HARRIS: Yes. There's no question about it. We have a situation, if we don't do that, we'll have an election that turns into a fiasco.
DOBBS: Rather than get to how we got to this point, how confident are you that all of the makers of the e-voting machines, the touch-screens, can fix the problem, in the six months we have remaining before the election?
HARRIS: They're going to have to. It's the American way. We have to roll up our sleeves and do this thing.
DOBBS: It's your judgment, with adding the paper trail, the receipt for the vote, if you will, for the voter and keeping a paper copy for the registrars, that this solve the problem?
HARRIS: As long as we use it. We'll have to still use it to check the machines and some other security things. But that is the most important thing and the one that will take the most time to implement.
DOBBS: Bev Harris, we thank you for being here tonight.
HARRIS: Thank you.
DOBBS: In "Exporting America" tonight the story of a small publishing company that had the decency, common sense, the courage and the conscience to say no to shipping American jobs overseas to cheap labor markets.
Peter Viles reports from Waldoborough, Maine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Small town publisher Sam Pennington puts out the "Maine Antique Digest," a treasure cove of Americana. You can find everything from Wild Bill Hickock's autograph to a $70,000 Tiffany lamp. Some months it runs 360 pages, which requires 20 people to sell the ads, lay out the pages, write the copy, all of them good jobs in Waldoboro, Maine.
DALE FLAGG, MAINE ANTIQUE DIGEST: Everyone's been here a long time. I've been here 25 years. Some people have been here 30. No one leaves.
VILES: But recently Sam got a weird letter, an outsourcing firm called Boma (ph) that said it would do all that work in the Philippines and reduce costs by 50 percent or more. Naturally, he told the staff.
SAM PENNINGTON, MAINE ANTIQUE DIGEST: I told them. I said somebody from the Philippines wants your job. I thought it was funnier than they did.
VILES: Now, Sam Pentington can joke about it, because he never for a second considered sending these jobs overseas.
PENNINGTON: It's a terrible thing. It's a disaster for the country. If we outsource all the jobs, who's going to have money to pay for anything?
VILES: Sam's is a family business. Wife Sally is executive editor. Daughter Sara, business manager, son Clayton, the editor. And they're old-fashioned. They believe in loyal to their employees.
CLAYTON PENNINGTON, MAINE ANTIQUE DIGEST: These people are the backbone of the business. They built it. You can't just cut and run and hire the cheapest worker you can. It doesn't work that way.
VILES: At least it doesn't work that way at this business.
S. PENNINGTON: I can't walk around this town and say I fired three people and sent their jobs to the Philippines. No way I could walk through this town. VILES: From a small business in a small town, a big lesson for corporate America. Peter Viles, CNN, Waldoboro, Maine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: I really like Maine.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's thought. The thought, "a business that makes nothing but money is a poor business." A pretty good businessman said in point of fact, by the name of Henry Ford.
Exporting America has now become a theme elsewhere in the media, this time in the comic strip, "Dilbert." And it probably doesn't surprise those of you who are fans of Scott Adams that he's taken the outsourcing of American jobs to those cheap foreign labor markets as a new strategy for his icon of corporate America, Dilbert's boss, The Boss.
In today's "Dilbert" cartoon strip, The Boss says, "We've moved our call center to Albonia, but we don't think anyone will notice." The next frame reads, "hello, my name is," well you try and sound that one out, "I mean, Carl."
Still ahead here, a tough sentence for the wife of an Enron executive, no thanks to the prosecutor but rather the judge. We'll have details in just a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The wife of former Enron CFO Andrew Fastow today going to prison for 12 months. That sentence in a Houston court. Federal judge David Hitner also sentenced Fastow to a year of supervised release after she pleaded guilty to a single count of filing a false tax return, a misdemeanor, by the way. That sentence was the absolute maximum the judge could impose for the crime.
Stocks today on Wall Street lower. The Dow down 70 points, the Nasdaq off 19 1/2, the S&P 500 losing nearly 8. Christine Romans is here now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the unemployment line got a little shorter in the latest week. Jobless claims fell to the lowest in 3 1/2 years. But oil prices, still near 13 year highs. Gasoline prices have never been this high.
And Allen Greenspan today issued a stern warning on the budget deficit. He told a banking conference today the federal budget deficit, Lou, is a significant obstacle to long-term stability. He was warned on the budget deficit before, but as recently as February, he suggested those deficits would narrow that defense spend like this couldn't last forever and a strong economy would generate rising incomes.
Also earlier this year, he downplayed the effects of the yawning current account deficit. DOBBS: Well, with Greenspan one has to take his most recent warnings the most seriously. And we will take this as his most recent.
Christine, thanks.
Still ahead here, we'll have the results of tonight's poll. But first, a reminder to check our Web site for a complete list of what is now more than 600 companies we confirm to be exporting America, cnn.com/lou. We continue in just a moment, please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of tonight's poll. 88 percent of you said President Bush did the right thing by apologizing for the treatment of Iraqi prisoners.
That's the broadcast for tonight and we thank you for being with us. Please join us tomorrow, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld testifies before the Senate Armed Services Committee. We'll be joined by Sen. Carl Levin, the ranking member of the committee.
And the most sweeping reorganization of veteran's healthcare in a half century. Our exclusive interview with the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Anthony Principi. Please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 6, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: U.S. troops in Iraq kill dozens of gunmen loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al- Sadr.
President Bush stands by his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, but apologizes for the abuse of prisoners in Iraq.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families.
DOBBS: A rising number of Democrats are calling for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation. One of those Democrats, Senator Tom Harkin, is my guest tonight. Also joining us, Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. Rumsfeld testifies tomorrow before Congressman Hunter's committee.
Also tonight, the rising threat to our democracy from e-voting. Author Bev Harris says a breakdown of trust in our voting system would undermine respect for our laws.
And business with a conscience. A small business owner says he will not export jobs to cheap overseas labor markets under any circumstances.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't walk around this town and say I fired three people and sent their jobs to the Philippines.
DOBBS: Tonight, our special report, fighting to protect American jobs.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, May 6. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today publicly apologized for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. President Bush said he is sorry for the humiliation suffered by those prisoners and their families. The president also gave his secretary of sort of, Donald Rumsfeld, his full support. He said Rumsfeld will remain in his Cabinet.
Senior White House correspondent John King reports -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, the White House tonight hoping the setting in which all of this played out will help calm somewhat the outrage across the Arab world over the abuse of those Iraqi prisoners.
It was in the Rose Garden where we heard from the president today. And standing at his side, King Abdullah of Jordan. The king was in the Oval Office to discuss Middle East peace efforts, but also, we are told, told the president that -- the devastating impact all this had had on the United States' image in the Arab world.
Mr. Bush emerging with King Abdullah. In his statement to the reporters in the Rose Garden, the president offering the direct apology that was missing yesterday when he first tried to quiet that Arab outrage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I told him I was sorry for the humiliation suffered by the Iraqi prisoners and the humiliation suffered by their families. I told him I was equally sorry that people who have been seeing those pictures didn't understand the true nature and heart of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, the president also discussing publicly what we reported yesterday about a private conversation with Secretary Rumsfeld in the Oval Office, the president making clear that he believes he was kept in the dark and he's mad about that, about the scope of the abuse of this prisoner abuse scandal. The president saying he should have known about the pictures of the abuses, should have known and been told by the Pentagon about a classified report detailing the abuses.
Still, the president making clear he was not happy about that, but making clear he stands by his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Secretary Rumsfeld has served our nation well. Secretary Rumsfeld has been the secretary during two wars. And he is -- he's an important of my Cabinet and he'll stay in my Cabinet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, the White House hoping that by saying, sorry, the president begins to abate somewhat the anger across the Arab world, the White House also hoping that this picture right here, shaking hands with a key moderate Arab ally, helps in the Arab world.
And King Abdullah, though he was quite reserved during this appearance, did try to help the president somewhat. He said these were heinous crimes committed against those Iraqi prisoners, but King Abdullah saying he trusted Mr. Bush and he said the president promised him that the United States was committed, Lou, to finding and punishing everyone responsible -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, King Abdullah delayed his trip in reaction to the president's endorsement of the Sharon plan on Gaza and the West Bank. Any developments on that issue today?
KING: Significant developments. The president retreated somewhat from what he said a few weeks ago when Prime Minister Sharon was here.
The president has always said the final issues need to be negotiated directly between the Israelis and the Palestinians. But he gave Prime Minister Sharon a letter saying he understood Israel might keep some settlements in the West Bank, that he understood that Palestinian refugees would not have the right to return to Israel.
Today, the president trying to quiet to that outrage as well by giving a separate letter to King Abdullah of Jordan, saying whether the issue be refugees, settlements, final borders, they need to be negotiated directly between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And, Lou, quite significantly, this president has all but ignored the current Palestinian prime minister.
Mr. believes he too close to Yasser Arafat. But the president, again under pressure from King Abdullah, said he would send the new Palestinian prime minister a letter as well revoicing his commitment to peace.
DOBBS: Did the White House, John, at any point say how they're going to reconcile the letters to the Palestinians, to King Abdullah and to Ariel Sharon, because they do not seem to be, at least on the face, consistent, but rather contradictory?
KING: They do appear to be contradictory.
Now, remember, the president did always says, even as he gave Prime Minister Sharpton that issue -- that letter, excuse me -- that he was not trying to prejudice the final negotiations. What almost everyone else in the world said, how could you say that after you said you recognize Israel's right to deny the refugees right of return, that you recognized Israel's right to keep some of the settlements?
Mr. Bush even back then was being somewhat contradictory, on the one hand giving that letter, on the other hand, saying negotiate this directly in the end. Now the White House believes it has backpedaled at least enough to get the parties to try to start talking again. The question, Lou, now is, is there enough trust of the president to do that? And is there -- the president still says, is there a Palestinian government with a commitment to reform that the Israelis will negotiate with?
DOBBS: John, thank you very much -- John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Well, the president showing consistency and constancy in his support for Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, although a rising number of Democrats are calling for the secretary of defense to resign. Those Democrats include House Minority Leader Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi. Congresswoman Pelosi said Rumsfeld is -- quote -- "in denial about Iraq."
Capitol Hill correspondent Joe Johns will report on the rising pressure on Rumsfeld in Congress. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre tonight to report on the reaction from the Pentagon itself.
We go first to Joe Johns on Capitol Hill -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this was rough stuff on Capitol Hill today, a direct assault on the defense secretary by a number of people, including the House Democratic leader, others, including Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York, as well as Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa.
Republicans are calling it premature. They say it's politically motivated. And they say the actions taken by the Department of Defense in this activity were reasonable in consideration of the facts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS (voice-over): The day before Rumsfeld's public testimony on Capitol Hill, And a few Democrats were already calling for his head.
SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: For the benefit of the United States, for our country, I believe Mr. Rumsfeld has to resign.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: I am calling for Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation.
JOHNS: One Democrat said Congress should make him step down, if necessary.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: If the president doesn't fire the secretary, if he doesn't resign, I think it's the responsibility of this Congress to file articles of impeachment and force him to leave office.
JOHNS: The chorus put some Republicans in the position of defending Rumsfeld before he had even spoken.
SEN. JON KYL (R), ARIZONA: Would we have the right to call for somebody's resignation before we've even heard on what they have to say, or been briefed on what they did? Is that an American way to go about doing things or is it perhaps an expression of partisanship? I suggest that, to the extent it might be the latter, people should hold their fire and just wait until the facts come in.
JOHNS: But the substance of Rumsfeld's defense had already begun. Four Republican senators met with at the Pentagon today, among them, Senator John Cornyn of Texas.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: One, that he knows that he's got to hit head on and that's why he's going to have his public testimony tomorrow, but I was reassured that the Department of Defense and the secretary had acted appropriately in light of these initial allegations back in January leading up to the criminal charges on March the 20th.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: So while Republicans are defending the defense secretary, they're also saying there will be some tough questions in that hearing tomorrow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Joe, thank you very much -- Joe Johns from Capitol Hill.
In just a few moments, we'll be joined here by Senator Tom Harkin, who, as Joe Johns just reported, has called for Rumsfeld to deny. Also, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, will join us, Congressman Duncan Hunter, who says the defense secretary should stay on the job.
Secretary Rumsfeld spent today preparing for his congressional testimony tomorrow. Rumsfeld will testify before both the Senate and House Armed Services Committees.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre with that report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this was another one of those days at the Pentagon. Those calls for Rumsfeld's resignation came on a day when new photographs surfaced of the continued abuse at the Abu Ghraib Prison, these published by "The Washington Post."
One of them shows a female soldier from the 372nd M.P. Company holding a leash attacked to a naked prisoner. Other photographs showed unclothed prisoners shackled to their cells with hoods or women's underwear over their heads. It was left to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to issue the denouncements of these pictures today.
He filled in for Rumsfeld at a speech that was scheduled in Philadelphia. Rumsfeld took a pass on that so he could spend the day getting ready for his grilling on Capitol Hill tomorrow. We're told by his aides, plus some of the senators who met with him, that he's upbeat, that he's anxious to tell his side of the story, and that he believe he has a rational explanation for how the Pentagon has handled this.
For instance, why didn't he show the pictures to the president or know more about them? He said he didn't have them because they were evidence in a criminal investigation. They were locked away in Iraq. He did describe the nature of the pictures to some people. Why didn't that report go up to Capitol Hill sooner, the scathing Army investigation? That, again, was part of a criminal investigation and was working its way through the chain of command under procedures that limits who can see it and when.
But, still, he's got some more explaining to do, particularly, some of the members of Congress are miffed about the fact that the very day these pictures appeared on the "60 Minutes" broadcast, just hours before that, Rumsfeld briefed members in a closed-door session, didn't say anything about them. Clearly, at that point, he knew what was about to unfold. He may be asked, by the way, for an apology both for what happened at the prison and for failing to keep Congress informed.
Up to now, he has stopped short of giving an apology. We'll have to see what he does tomorrow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Has he at the very least apologized to President Bush, who today made it very clear he is mightily displeased with his secretary of defense on this issue?
MCINTYRE: We don't know.
DOBBS: We may find that out in the days ahead. Jamie McIntyre, we appreciate it. Thank you, our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
In Iraq today, U.S. troops dramatically stepped up their offensive against gunmen loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The soldiers took control of the office in Najaf and killed nearly 60 insurgents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): The insurgents did not defend the governor's office and American troops met no resistance. Then the insurgents fought back.
LT. COL. PAT WHITE, U.S. ARMY: We're now operating in a territory where the Mahdi Army is not used to us being. And what we're seeing and what we've seen over past half an hour is their reaction us to on their turf.
DOBBS: U.S. officials quickly installed a new governor of Najaf.
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: I'm naming Adnan al- Zurufi as governor of Najaf. Governor Zurufi, a member of the Bani Hasan tribe, earned a degree in Islamic law at Al Feqih college, the Islamic jurisprudence college in Najaf. He is the right man for the job at this time.
DOBBS: In Karbala, insurgents fired rocket-propelled grenades at a U.S. patrol. The Americans killed six insurgents.
In Baghdad, insurgent ambushed U.S. troops. The Americans killed 19 insurgents. Near the coalition headquarters, a suicide car bomb exploded. And elsewhere in Baghdad, a roadside bomb detonated. Three American soldiers are among the dead.
In Sadr City, insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy. American soldiers killed 10 of the attackers. The insurgents have taken a new American hostage. An Arabic television network broadcast video today of Aban Elias, a civil engineer. His family identified him. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Next, we'll have more on the controversy about Secretary Rumsfeld. Senator Tom Harkin says it's time for him to resign. Senator Harkin is our guest. I will also talk with Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter, who gives Rumsfeld his full support.
President Bush's approval rating drops to the lowest level of his presidency. He and Senator Kerry are also in a statistical dead heat in campaign for the White House. I'll be joined by three of this country's top political journalists.
And the outsourcing industry trying to convince small business owners to export their jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. But some business owners, you'll be pleased to know, are not only saying no. In fact, they're saying hell no.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Tom Harkin today called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Senator Harkin said Rumsfeld should go for the good of our country, the safety of our troops and our image around the globe.
Senator Harkin joins me now from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us.
HARKIN: Hi, Lou.
DOBBS: The scandal, the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, obviously upsetting to all of us. The president today has apologized. Would it be helpful to your viewpoint if Secretary Rumsfeld were to apologize? Would that in any way influence your judgment?
HARKIN: Well, words are one thing. We do owe an apology. And I'm glad the president today did apologize after this long wait. And it's right that we do apologize for these actions.
But the fact is that we have civilian control of the military. And it's the policies and actions and sort of the attitude of the secretary of state (sic) that I kind of think led to this. After all, it was Secretary Rumsfeld who kind of said that the Geneva Convention doesn't apply, who said we could hold prisoners incommunicado, who allowed interrogations to go beyond what Army regulations allow. This all adds up to kind of an atmosphere that just permits something like this to happen.
That's why I say, it really is time for Secretary Rumsfeld to step down.
DOBBS: Senator, as you know, some are saying that this is on your part and that of other Democratic lawmakers pure partisanship in an election year, rather than waiting to hear Secretary Rumsfeld testify, as he will tomorrow before the House and Senate Armed Services Committees. What's your reaction?
HARKIN: My reaction is that Rumsfeld testifies all the time. And I'm sure he'll have all kinds of reasons and he'll say that they're going to have an investigation, they're going to find out who is responsible. And I'm all for that.
We need investigations to find out who in the military should have known about this. We know that the International Red Cross had told the military in the past that they had problems there. Who dismissed all of this? How high up did it go? The investigation should go forward.
But the fact remains, the secretary of defense, through his actions, through his policies, through his statements, I believe, allowed something like this to happen. And that's why I say, words are one thing. Deeds are another. And I think the rest of the world needs to see that we're taking this, not just apologizing, but we're actually going to take action. And I think the most important action we can take is to get a new secretary of defense.
A new secretary of defense, you suggest. What about the entire chain of command that leads to Abu Ghraib Prison itself? What would you have the Army, U.S. military, do there?
HARKIN: Well, we've got to put in place policies that just will not permit this to happen in the future.
Lou, when I first saw these, it took me back 34 years, when I was a young staff person, and through some luck and the bravery of a South Vietnamese individual, I was able, with my camera, to document the existence of the tiger cages on Con Son Island off of the coast of Vietnam. I remember what happened to me. They tried to take my film away. They threatened me with lawsuits. I got fired and was told I would never work in Congress ever again, which I proved them wrong.
And they tried to cover up everything. But we got the pictures published and showed the world that in fact we had jurisdiction, supervision over these terrible conditions, these prisons where people were being tortured, killed, in clear violation of the Geneva Convention. And I would have thought we would have learned from the Vietnam War. I'm sorry that we've got to relearn it again.
DOBBS: Senator, today, House Majority Member Tom DeLay said the Democrats are using the Abu Ghraib Prison abuses for political purposes. And he said, in fact -- and I'd like to quote -- calling for Secretary Rumsfeld's resignation, in his judgment, is as bad a signal as saying the war is unwinnable.
How do you react?
HARKIN: Well, you know, again, it just takes me back 34 years to Vietnam. And when I took the pictures of the tiger cages, basically they said I was aiding and abetting the enemy, that this would give aid and comfort to the North Vietnamese.
And I said, no, it doesn't. It's trying to force us, the United States, to stand for what we basically are, a decent, humanitarian country, that we care deeply about fundamental human rights, that we believe in the Geneva Convention. And we shouldn't let any secretary of defense or anyone like that run away, steal from us what we are as a nation. And that's really what Secretary Rumsfeld has done.
DOBBS: Senator Tom Harkin, we thank you for being with us.
HARKIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: In just a few minutes, we'll be joined by Congressman Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, who has a view diametrically opposed to the views expressed by Senator Harkin. Congressman Hunter says there is no reason for Rumsfeld to resign his post as secretary of defense.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight: Do you believe President Bush did the right thing by apologizing for the treatment of Iraqi prisoners, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
DOBBS: Also ahead, President Bush says he is sorry for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. But will his apology help his sagging approval ratings? Three of the nation's top political journalists join me.
And electronic voting, is it a threat to the very future of our democracy? Bev Harris is the author of "Black Box Voting." And she's our guest.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The president's approval rating has dropped to the lowest level of his presidency, according to the latest Gallup poll; 49 percent of Americans now say they approve of how President Bush is handling his job, but that's down from 52 percent only two weeks ago; 48 percent say they disapprove.
That stark division is also reflected in the likely voters' choice for president; 49 percent said they would vote for Senator John Kerry; 48 percent now say they would reelect for President Bush.
Joining me now from Washington, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent, "Los Angeles Times," CNN political analyst Carlos Watson, and Alexis Simendinger, White House correspondent, "National Journal."
Thanks for being here.
And let me begin with you, Alexis.
The president has now apologized for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. What the likely impact on the political environment here domestically?
ALEXIS SIMENDINGER, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "NATIONAL JOURNAL": It was interesting. It was a very strategic apology because of course the president could have done this yesterday. But standing next to King Abdullah of Jordan, the president thought that today was the right time to do it.
That message of apology was as much for the Arab world as it was for the domestic political audience. And so when you try to figure out whether the American public was waiting for the president to apologize, the president also worked in an apology to them, to the American public, knowing of course that they would be paying close attention.
DOBBS: Carlos, was it the right thing for the president to do?
CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I wonder whether it will end being a day too late.
We'll see when some more polling comes out over the next week. And I think significantly, part of the question is not just nationally how will people react, particularly in his base among Republicans, but when you look at key states like Michigan that have a meaningful Arab- American population that last time was a relatively close race, some five points, will that make a difference? I think that will be an interesting thing to watch, Lou.
DOBBS: Ron, the fact is, it strikes me at least, unlikely that an apology or an embrace in point of fact from the president would influence Arab attitudes in the Middle East toward the United States. The region is decidedly anti-American. But domestically, in apologizing, has the president done the right thing politically?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think it's a small thing politically.
As you know, I believe that events matter more than arguments. And the reality the president is facing is that we have had a very rough time in Iraq, the highest level of casualties that we have experienced since the war began. And the American public is willing to accept casualties, Lou, if you look historically, as long as they feel they're being borne toward a purpose.
Right now, he's facing the risk that people see the wheels coming off in Iraq, this being just another example of that. And if that is the case, when people grow pessimistic about the prospects for achieving our mission, that's when they grow increasingly restive about the casualty level.
You saw that in the poll today, the approval rating on Iraq down to 42 percent, dragging down the overall approval rating under 50 percent to a level where he's vulnerable to Senator Kerry.
DOBBS: Secretary Rumsfeld, calls for a resignation, Alexis. We've got just a very short amount of time. How much trouble is, in your judgment, is Secretary Rumsfeld?
SIMENDINGER: From my point of view, Lou, the president's supposed dissatisfaction with Rumsfeld and the White House making that public was an effort to actually give Rumsfeld some protection.
He's supposed to go to Capitol Hill tomorrow. That was a strategic move to try to take the temperature down in Congress and try to give Rumsfeld some running room. The president is not so worried about Democratic criticism, but very much worried about Republican criticism. If his administration loses the support of his own party and Rumsfeld becomes the whipping boy for Iraq, as Ron was joint putting out, that is big, big trouble.
DOBBS: Two of the most distinguished Republican senators, Senators McCain and Warner, Carlos, very critical of the defense secretary. How important? What is the likely impact?
WATSON: Reminds me a lot of the Trent Lott situation a little over a year ago, where there was an outcry in the land, but maybe the most significantly outcry ultimately was within the Republican caucus.
And ultimately Lott went down. There was a sense not only of error, but maybe of arrogance in some ways. I wonder, as I hear Lindsey Graham speak, as I hear John Warner speak out, as I hear John McCain and others speak out, of whether or not it ultimately will be his own party members who take him down, if you will. The whipping boy I think Alexis said there's a possibility he could become.
But one other thing to add -- and, maybe, Ron, you're going to this direction -- it may not be enough.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the problem I think he has on Capitol Hill, he doesn't have a well of goodwill. They feel Secretary Rumsfeld has not shared information with them all the way through. A lot of Republicans don't feel that fondly toward him to begin with. On the other hand, President Bush doesn't like to remove people under pressure. He tends to view that as giving in to the other side. As you saw today, that very firm statement.
I thought what he was doing by putting out the story of him reprimanding Rumsfeld was trying to reestablishing the idea of the president being commander, exerting leadership here. That is the core of his argument for reelection, that he is a strong and decisive leader on the war on terror. At times he has looks a little passive. Handing things off to Mr. Brahimi, deferring to generals on how many troops we need. I think this was a clear statement saying I am in control, especially it came out he was informed of this basic problem in January. And it's not exactly clear exactly what he did in the interim either?
DOBBS: He being the secretary of defense?
BROWNSTEIN: The president. The president. We reported today, the secretary of defense informed him in January at least of the broad outlines of the problem. And the White House felt -- the president felt it was being investigated. And again, it gets to the issue of management style, whether the president is aggressively managing the details of these problems. I'm some of the same issues that came up on the August 6th briefing in 2001, what he did in response to getting the information. WATSON: Lou, there's an interesting comparison imerging...
DOBBS: Very quickly, Carlos.
WATSON: Remember, the president portrayed John Kerry as flip- flopper, that's a character issue. Emerging character issue for the president, his own judgment. Does he have the strong judgment to manage difficult international affairs. Look for that to become part of the conversation over the next month.
DOBBS: It certainly become reflected as an issue in the poll with a decline of 42 percent in Iraq and foreign policy in the latest Gallup Poll released today. Well, thank you very much, Alexis, Carlos, Ron, appreciate it.
Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee says there is no reason for Secretary Rumsfeld to resign tomorrow. Congressman Hunter will hear the testimony from the secretary.
Congressman Hunter, the chairman of that committee, joins me now. Thanks for being here.
There is a firestorm swirling around the secretary of state. Conflicting reports, you just heard Ron Brownstein of the "L.A. Times" talking about it, as to what the president knew in January about this situation and how the secretary has handled it. Are those questions that you're going to zero in tomorrow when the secretary appears before you?
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CHMN., ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Well, listen, Lou, there's two things we should be interested in right now. That's how the secretary of state handles combat, whether he's effective, in terms of working these two theaters of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, mainly in fighting the war against terrorism and how well he's doing, in terms of working with the team, that is with Congress, with the president. And as partners in carrying out this battle.
Let me tell you, Secretary Rumsfeld, has been effective in fighting this war. He was -- he astounded people with the speed with which he got to Baghdad, with lots of folks second-guessing him, when we made that first drive on Baghdad. We did, it with minimum casualties. He's smart. He works 15 hour days. And if you watch him, he has literally 100 issues that cross his standing up desk everyday. He has to handle these allies sometimes with us, sometimes not with us. He's got two major theaters of war. He now has a war that is concentrated on special op -- with respect to special operations, very complicated. And the idea he was supposed to focus all of his attention on these six people.
And so far, let's put this in context, this big storm you're talking about centers on six people identified so far who are being recommended for court-martials under article 32, of the UCMJ, that's as opposed to 135,000 people in theater, some of whom are in combat right now. My answer -- my two John friends John McCain and John Warner, let's keep our eye on the ball. The ball is bringing our people home safe. It's carrying out our mission in Iraq and being an effective military leader. Let's not try to shoot down a member of the president's team who is an effective war fighter.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, all respect, laying out the two conditions you put forward, one, working with the team, as you off styled it, in terms of the secretary of defense, numerous, you know most of their names, complainants from Capitol Hill on both the Senate side and the House, that this secretary of defense has not been forthcoming, that this administration has not been forthcoming and has not responded to entreaty and inquiry particularly on the part of the U.S. Senate on this war. And secondly in terms of conduct of the war at this point, this war right now, if you want to style it as occupation or post Saddam period, whatever, the United States is absorbing huge casualties at a time one would have expected to see quite a different direction in violence in Baghdad, don't you think, sir?
HUNTER: Well, Lou, is that very fierce contest. You have lots of people who are trying to hurt Americans in this theater. That's a fact of life. And that level of resistance and people coming in from the outside, and the level of resistance of the insurgents, remnants of the Ba'ath Party, none of that could be made to disappear by the secretary of defense. I'll tell you as chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, I've had great cooperation with the secretary. He's done a lot of things in this time. He's reformed the personnel system. He's given our people freedom to train on these bases. And every week during the war and on a very regular basis, we have briefings where I invite the full to come in under the direction of the speaker. The secretary comes in, gives us lots of time. I've had a good relationship and think most of the members of the committee have had a good relationship with this secretary.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, very quickly, tell us what you want to find out from Secretary Rumsfeld when he does appear before you committee tomorrow?
What are the burning issues for you?
HUNTER: Simply on this issue, you have six key military investigations on this issue now. Six, count them six. So far you only have six defendants. So, this entire storm generated lots of press and sold lots of Coca-Cola is based on six people. Now, I want to know, if under the UCMJ, the Military Justice System is marching ahead as it's supposed to be. And if that court-martial convening board is going to have an answer, have a recommendation in the next period of time, know what's happening. Also, what reforms are being taken in that system. Whether we're going to have more accountability, more posting of Geneva Convention regulations and army procedures which weren't posted. And I want to know how are the 135,000 people fighting the war doing right now. And I want to ask him about operations, casualties we're taking, things that we can do to get force protection to our people in theater. I want to make sure the kids, the 135,000 folks working honorably and courageously are being well served.
DOBBS: Amen. And I assume, I want to throw this to you, if I may, as a final question. I don't think any of us could agree more with your last point. But don't we also want to know how in the world chain of command could have permitted this kind of un-American conduct by whatever the number of soldiers that are involved, could have occurred?
Don't we want to know that, and what the responsibility for those actions are?
HUNTER: Oh, certainly, Lou. And beyond the six people who are doing this that have been identified so far, every -- every officer in the chain of command, up to general Karpinski, who is a bring commander, who said I had no idea, and I watched her on television, said I had no idea what was happening down there. I think she made at once the most exculpatory statement she can make and most incriminating. The worst thing a commander can say is I didn't know what my people were doing down there. And so, certainly, all of those people of have now had their careers terminated not because they knew anything about what was happening, because it happened on their watch. And that incidently, is a military standard much tougher than a corporate standard.
DOBBS: How high up does that standard apply?
HUNTER: I think you take -- you use judgment. As I told Nancy Pelosi's folks, she says Don Rumsfeld should resign, because out of 300,000 people in Iraq, six people apparently have committed crimes. She has a constituency of roughly 600,000 people as we all have in the U.S. Congress. If somebody gets murder in her district tomorrow, does that mean Nancy Pelosi resigns? And the answer is of course not, because there's not a connection causal connection or account ability connection. So, you take it up to where common sense and good judgment places it. I would say the brigade commander needs to know what's happening in her prison.
DOBBS: Congressman Duncan Hunter, Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, thanks for being us, sir.
Still ahead, the heaviest fighting in weeks in Iraq. Coalition troops move in on Iraqi insurgent strong holds. General David Grange, "On Point," next.
And Exporting America: community values, social responsibility, common sense. We're talking about outsourcing. And we've got some great news for you tonight. We'll have that special report for you.
And electronic voting in the future of democracy. California moves a step closer to outlawing e-voting. Bev Harris author of "Black Box Voting," she's our guest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The U.S. offensive against Muqtada al Sadr's gunmen has led to the hardest fighting in Iraq since the end of the siege of Fallujah. American troops have killed dozens of gunman in a series of coordinated attacks against al Sadr's strong holds in central Iraq. That assault is under way tonight.
And I'm joined by former General David Grange now, in "Grange on Point."
General, good to have you with us. David is this the push against al Sadr is this the resolution?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The push has already started weeks ago. This is getting a little bit more intense. It will continue to be squeezed. And Sadr is either going to be killed, captured or turned over to the Iraqi authorities for trial. He's being isolated from other Shi'ites. The start of that is happening. The other Shi'ite leaders do not like his attitude, and I think the people are getting tired of his militia.
DOBBS: Should we expect -- this has been an extraordinary bloody 30 days, are we to expect even more casualties in the days and weeks ahead?
GRANGE: Yes, sir, we are.
DOBBS: To the degree that is going to occur, is there anything that we can do at this point to diminish those casualties and succeed with lower casualties?
GRANGE: The key aspect of that, Lou, is getting the Iraqi leadership in that area, the other Shi'ite leaders to help work out solutions. And to convince him to either turn himself in or disband his groups. I think some of that can be done, but regrettably, some will have to die.
DOBBS: And today Senator Pat Roberts, a number of others, the chairman of the House -- Senate Intelligence Committee, said just level Abu Ghraib Prison, icon of the Saddam Hussein era, and now a stain on U.S. forces in Iraq.
Would you agree with doing that?
GRANGE: I do agree. I think it should be leveled immediately. Get rid of it. Plant roses over the site, build a memorial, anything, just remove the image. Everybody sees imaging on broadcast. They don't really understand many of the words that are stated, especially by Americans or other coalition leaders. Get rid of the image. It's a stain not only on Saddam, but also now on a few -- small group of bad American troopers. Get rid of it.
DOBBS: I just asked chairman, Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee about where the standard of responsibility should end, for what occurred.
What's your judgment?
GRANGE: Well, it's couple of things that you have to be careful of right now. And I think that's why you see some senior leaders being a little bit guarded with some of their comments, because it's what's called command influence. If there's command influence in a criminal case against soldiers that are accused of doing something very bad, as in this case, it can influence the outcome of the court. So they're very guarded for that reason. But I believe with Congressman Hunter, that this has to be -- this is a chain of command failure, no doubt about it. And it goes up at least as far as the commander in charge of the chain of command of prisons in that part of the world.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you sir.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Coming up next, a threat to democracy. Electronic voting could undermine our system of law. She's are guest next.
"Exporting America," a small businessman in Maine. He says outsourcing was never even a consideration. We'll have his story. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: California State Senate Committee has approved a ban against all electronic voting in the November election. A vote by the full state Senate could come as early as next week.
My next guest says the use of electronic voting machines could hurt our democracy.
Bev Harris, the author of "Black Box Voting," joining us tonight from Seattle, Washington.
Bev good to have you here. How important is the Senate -- California Senate decision next week.
BEV HARRIS, AUTHOR, "BLACK BOX VOTING: VOTE TAMPERING IN THE 21st CENTURY": Very important. Basicly what will happen with that is it will make the counties able to fight against it and the secretary of state's ruling to do the same thing.
DOBBS: And the secretary of state, there's quite a momentum building in California. Are we going to see this, in your judgment, move -- spread around the country?
HARRIS: Yes. There's no question about it. We have a situation, if we don't do that, we'll have an election that turns into a fiasco.
DOBBS: Rather than get to how we got to this point, how confident are you that all of the makers of the e-voting machines, the touch-screens, can fix the problem, in the six months we have remaining before the election?
HARRIS: They're going to have to. It's the American way. We have to roll up our sleeves and do this thing.
DOBBS: It's your judgment, with adding the paper trail, the receipt for the vote, if you will, for the voter and keeping a paper copy for the registrars, that this solve the problem?
HARRIS: As long as we use it. We'll have to still use it to check the machines and some other security things. But that is the most important thing and the one that will take the most time to implement.
DOBBS: Bev Harris, we thank you for being here tonight.
HARRIS: Thank you.
DOBBS: In "Exporting America" tonight the story of a small publishing company that had the decency, common sense, the courage and the conscience to say no to shipping American jobs overseas to cheap labor markets.
Peter Viles reports from Waldoborough, Maine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Small town publisher Sam Pennington puts out the "Maine Antique Digest," a treasure cove of Americana. You can find everything from Wild Bill Hickock's autograph to a $70,000 Tiffany lamp. Some months it runs 360 pages, which requires 20 people to sell the ads, lay out the pages, write the copy, all of them good jobs in Waldoboro, Maine.
DALE FLAGG, MAINE ANTIQUE DIGEST: Everyone's been here a long time. I've been here 25 years. Some people have been here 30. No one leaves.
VILES: But recently Sam got a weird letter, an outsourcing firm called Boma (ph) that said it would do all that work in the Philippines and reduce costs by 50 percent or more. Naturally, he told the staff.
SAM PENNINGTON, MAINE ANTIQUE DIGEST: I told them. I said somebody from the Philippines wants your job. I thought it was funnier than they did.
VILES: Now, Sam Pentington can joke about it, because he never for a second considered sending these jobs overseas.
PENNINGTON: It's a terrible thing. It's a disaster for the country. If we outsource all the jobs, who's going to have money to pay for anything?
VILES: Sam's is a family business. Wife Sally is executive editor. Daughter Sara, business manager, son Clayton, the editor. And they're old-fashioned. They believe in loyal to their employees.
CLAYTON PENNINGTON, MAINE ANTIQUE DIGEST: These people are the backbone of the business. They built it. You can't just cut and run and hire the cheapest worker you can. It doesn't work that way.
VILES: At least it doesn't work that way at this business.
S. PENNINGTON: I can't walk around this town and say I fired three people and sent their jobs to the Philippines. No way I could walk through this town. VILES: From a small business in a small town, a big lesson for corporate America. Peter Viles, CNN, Waldoboro, Maine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: I really like Maine.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's thought. The thought, "a business that makes nothing but money is a poor business." A pretty good businessman said in point of fact, by the name of Henry Ford.
Exporting America has now become a theme elsewhere in the media, this time in the comic strip, "Dilbert." And it probably doesn't surprise those of you who are fans of Scott Adams that he's taken the outsourcing of American jobs to those cheap foreign labor markets as a new strategy for his icon of corporate America, Dilbert's boss, The Boss.
In today's "Dilbert" cartoon strip, The Boss says, "We've moved our call center to Albonia, but we don't think anyone will notice." The next frame reads, "hello, my name is," well you try and sound that one out, "I mean, Carl."
Still ahead here, a tough sentence for the wife of an Enron executive, no thanks to the prosecutor but rather the judge. We'll have details in just a moment. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: The wife of former Enron CFO Andrew Fastow today going to prison for 12 months. That sentence in a Houston court. Federal judge David Hitner also sentenced Fastow to a year of supervised release after she pleaded guilty to a single count of filing a false tax return, a misdemeanor, by the way. That sentence was the absolute maximum the judge could impose for the crime.
Stocks today on Wall Street lower. The Dow down 70 points, the Nasdaq off 19 1/2, the S&P 500 losing nearly 8. Christine Romans is here now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the unemployment line got a little shorter in the latest week. Jobless claims fell to the lowest in 3 1/2 years. But oil prices, still near 13 year highs. Gasoline prices have never been this high.
And Allen Greenspan today issued a stern warning on the budget deficit. He told a banking conference today the federal budget deficit, Lou, is a significant obstacle to long-term stability. He was warned on the budget deficit before, but as recently as February, he suggested those deficits would narrow that defense spend like this couldn't last forever and a strong economy would generate rising incomes.
Also earlier this year, he downplayed the effects of the yawning current account deficit. DOBBS: Well, with Greenspan one has to take his most recent warnings the most seriously. And we will take this as his most recent.
Christine, thanks.
Still ahead here, we'll have the results of tonight's poll. But first, a reminder to check our Web site for a complete list of what is now more than 600 companies we confirm to be exporting America, cnn.com/lou. We continue in just a moment, please stay with us.
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DOBBS: Now the results of tonight's poll. 88 percent of you said President Bush did the right thing by apologizing for the treatment of Iraqi prisoners.
That's the broadcast for tonight and we thank you for being with us. Please join us tomorrow, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld testifies before the Senate Armed Services Committee. We'll be joined by Sen. Carl Levin, the ranking member of the committee.
And the most sweeping reorganization of veteran's healthcare in a half century. Our exclusive interview with the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs, Anthony Principi. Please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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