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CNN Live Sunday
Interview With Vietnam War Heroes Hugh Thompson, Larry Colburn; Governor Jeb Bush Appeals Overturn Of Terri Law
Aired May 09, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN SUNDAY is ahead, but first I've got these headlines. Sad news from the world of comedy: comedian, actor Alan King has died of lung cancer in New York. He was 76 years-old. King's career spanned more than half a cenury in night clubs, television, Broadway and the movies.
At least 6 people were wounded at the Four Seasons hotel in Baghdad when a bomb exploded. A hotel employee says the victims are British and Nepalese contractors. The bomb was apparently placed outside the hotel, but it ripped through a bar inside where the foreign contractors were sitting.
The remaining Spanish troops in Iraq may leave befor the May 27 pullout date. Spain's new defense minister Jose Bono is hinting that if the security situation in Iraq improves, his troops will go home sooner. Bono made a surprise visit to Spanish troops south of Baghdad today.
I'm Carol Lin, and welcome to CNN LIVE SUNDAY. Ahead at this hour, they have a winning touch, but these winners won way too much. And now they're banned from casinos around the world. Who are they and how did they do it. I'm going to be talking to one of them ahead in this hour.
And a day in the life of a former hostage in Iraq. Wea re going to go to Thomas Hamill's hometown as he spends his first weekend back home.
But right now, we begin with the first soldier to face court- martial in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Specialist Jeremy Sivit could face a year in prison if convicted of the charges against him. The proceedings will begin May 19.
Meanwhile, another new disturbing photo has emerged. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us now from the Pentagon with more on that. What is it, Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did acknowledge to lawmakers on Friday that hundreds of photos do exist and may surface.
Well, now, Americans are getting a look at yet another one.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO (voice-over): This time, the picture shows a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, cowering, surrounded by what appear to be men in uniforms with dogs at their sides. "The New Yorker" magazine published the photo along with another article by Seymour Hersh in which he says the evidence suggests cameras were part of the interrogation process to gain leverage.
SEYMOUR HERSH, THE NEW YORKER: To threaten a prisoner with -- with taking these photographs and showing them to neighbors or showing them to others, it would be a greater source of humiliation to have others actually see the problems he had in prison.
QUIJANO: A senior Pentagon official says the pictures are all evidence in an ongoing investigation. Lawmakers may get the chance to privately view yet unseen photos. The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Republican John Warner, says the committee is working with the Pentagon in advance of a Tuesday hearing.
SEN. JOHN WARNER (D-VA) CHAIRMAN ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: How much they could be made public remains to be seen. But the Pentagon is certainly at this point in time cooperating with us in putting our hearing together.
QUIJANO: Family, friends and an attorney for one of the accused, Specialist Charles Graner, say the soldiers acted not on their own, but at the direction of their superiors in military intelligence.
GUY WOMACK, SPC. CHARLES GRANER'S ATTY: I've only seen about seven photos. And those were ones that he was ordered to have taken.
QUIJANO: The Pentagon continues to investigate. The CIA is due to finish its own report on the abuse allegations in two to three weeks, according to Republican Senator Pat Roberts who chairs the Central Intelligence Committee. And now, one of the 7 accused, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, faces a bad conduct discharge and is said to be court-martialed May 19.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. MILITARY SPOKESMAN: The three charges against Specialist Sivits are: conspiracy to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty for negligently failing to protect detainees from abuse, cruelty and maltreatment, and maltreatment of detainees.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: The military says that the court-martial will take place at coalition headquarters in Baghdad and will be open to the media. It's part of the Pentagon's effort to make transparent, especially in the Arab world, the process of meting out military justice -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Elain Quijano live at the Pentagon.
Well, should Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld resign because of the scandal? That was the talk on the Sunday talk shows. CNN White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux joins us now -- Suzanne. SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House officials say the focus is no longer on Rumsfeld, the president is satisfied with the explanation and the apology, the focus now on how to best handle those new photos to come.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): President Bush enduring one of the most damaging weeks of his presidency and bracing himself for the release of even more graphic photos and video of prisoner abuse. He will continue to stand by his beleaguered defense secretary, aides say, but his support is not quieted the furor over Secretary Rumsfeld's fate.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FRM. DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it would be patriotic if secretary Rumsfeld resigned.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R) NEBRASKA: It's still in question whether Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and quite frankly, General Myers, can command the respect and the trust and the confidence of the military and the American people.
LAWRENCE EAGLEBURGER, FRM. SECRETARY OF STATE: I think it's nonsense. The secretary of defense ought to be judged on how well we does his overall job, not whether some group of people in Iraq, where he could not possibly have known about it at the time, did what they did.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN, (D) DELAWARE: I don't give a damn about Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld going seems to me an essential first step.
MALVEAUX: Lawmakers who appeared on TV were followed by a half dozen anti-war protesters. One dressed like an Iraqi prisoner who was forced to hold wires and threatened with electrocution.
Despite the scandal, White House officials say the president's support of the secretary has not waned. Having led the country through two wars, and efforts to transform the military, Rumsfeld is considered too valuable to lose. And so far, his support from the Republican leadership has not cracked.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: If you're calling for his resignation, you're missing the boat. If you're in the White House say get off his back, you're missing the boat. The problem we have before us as a nation and in the Congress, and private citizens as well, is how do we show the world we can did better.
MALVEAUX: Some Democratic lawmakers believe that responsibility is on the president.
SEN. EVAN BAYH, (D) INDIANA: Don Rumsfeld works for the president. He's ins stewarting the president's policy. So, the question should be, are the president's policies being effective in Iraq or not? Do we need a new president or not?
(END VIDEOTAPE) MALVEAUX: Now, tomorrow, President Bush will travel to the Pentagon for a military briefing for an update on the war on terror also about those photos and the prison scandal. But aides say that afterwards he will stand shoulder to shoulder with Secretary Rumsfeld to show his support -- Carol.
LIN: Thank you very much, Suzanne Malveaux live at the White House.
In the meantime, Iraqi police are blaming another improvised explosive device for an explosion at a crowded market in Baghdad. It happened right after a raid in one of the city's suburbs. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports from the Iraqi capital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The smoldering Shiite uprising reignites in Baghdad's Sadr city. Following an American raid over night, that netted two top deputies of militant Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
A coalition spokesman said 18 militants were killed in clashes. While local residents accused American forces of targeting civilians as well as fighters.
We are family sitting at home, says this Sadr city resident. The Americans shelled us with tanks and machine guns. Is this a war zone? This is just a poor neighborhood.
Early Sunday, a bomb ripped through a crowded market in Southwest Baghdad killing at least five people including a child. More than a dozen people were wounded, among them, six policemen. And here, shock mixes with growing disillusion with the new Iraq.
This is the freedom they want, says this man, who witnessed the blast. People cut into shreds in the street. What did we do wrong.
Sunday, the coalition provisional authority announced that the first court-martial for a military policemen allegedly involved in prisoner abuse would begin in Baghdad on May 19. The first to go on trial, 24 year-old Specialist Jeremy Sivits.
KIMMITT: The three charges against Specialist Sivits are: conspiracy to maltreatment -- to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty for failing to protect detainees from abuse, and maltreatment of detainees.
WEDEMAN: Six other military policemen, in addition to Sivits, are the subject of a criminal investigation. Protesters in Baghdad echoed growing public anger in Iraq over the prisoner abuse scandal yet another front where the beleaguered U.S.-led coalition is under fire. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: It was a daring attempt to save lives. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank God that everybody played it real cool. And they just held their crowd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: And they took on the American military to blow the whistle on what happened in the village of My Lai during the Vietnam War. Still to come, I'm going to be talking to them.
Plus, the Terri Schiavo case the family issue that continues to grab government's attention. I'm going to be talking to the attorney for Florida governor, Jeb Bush in that case.
And catering to moms. Stick around, that is the goal of one Fortune 500 company doing things for women.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: The abuses at Abu Ghraib Prison would not have come to light if someone hadn't stepped forward and blown the whistle on his fellow soldiers. One in particular, Specialist Thomas Darby slipped an anonymous note to his superior telling about the abuses. He later came forward with an official statement. Specialist Darby is still on duty overseas, but here at home, officials say he's been commended for alerting superiors. Even Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld specifically mentioned him during his testimony before Congress.
But it's not as simple as just doing the right thing. Just ask the American soldiers who blew the whistle and stopped one of the worst civilian massacres by U.S. troops. Yes, U.S. troops, during the vietnam war.
I'm going to be talking to those men in just a moment. But first, here is their heroic story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN (voice-over): When he was young, Hugh Thompson didn't look the other way when others were bullied.
CWO HUGH THOMPSON, FRM. VIETNAM HELICOPTER PILOT: I know when I was in high school, I couldn't stand the other -- stand the bully. I would always kind of get on the other side for the underdog and help him out or pull for him.
LIN: March 16, 1968, Thompson, a 24-year-old U.S. Army helicopter pilot in Vietnam spotted something terribly wrong when flying over the village of My Lai.
THOMPSON: We noticed vast numbers of bodies, old women, old men, babies, infants that were dead or wounded.
LIN: As Thompson and his crew Larry Colbern, 19 and crew chief Glen Andriotta, 18, flew closer to the ground. They saw American soldiers killing villagers. Thompson saw three civilians running from American troops, trying to take cover in a bunker.
THOMPSON: We set the aircraft down, and confronted the soldiers. And we weren't going to take part in operations like this.
LIN: Thompson and his crew did something that could have cost them their own lives or their military careers. They turned their weapons on fellow Americans and ordered them to stop shooting. Thompson then asked his countrymen to help him save the three civilians hiding in the bunker.
THOMPSON: I was told you could get them out with a hand grenade. I hold them to hold their troops where they were. I think I could do better than that. And, you know, y'all just stay right here. I've already told my people to open up if y'all open up. Thank God that everybody played it real cool then, and they just held their ground.
I went over to the bunker and motioned for them to come out. And they were very reluctant to come out into the arms, you might say, of an American. I didn't have a weapon drawn. And I guess they decided it would be better taking their chance with me than with the other people.
LIN: Thompson's intervention stopped the Mailai massacre, but only after 504 Vietnamese were killed. Nearly half of whom were younger than 12 or over 70.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: It is now my pleasure to introduce the man who is at My Lai. Former U.S. Army gunner Larry Colburn. Mr. Colburn, it's a pleasure to have you here.
LARRY COLBURN, FRM. U.S. ARMY GUNNER: Hello.
LIN: When you think about that fateful day, do you really feel that you were risking your lives? Did you think that American soldiers would actually open fire on a fellow American?
COLBURN: No. At the time it never really crossed my mind. We knew we had to act quickly, because these people had just a few seconds before they encountered the oncoming American troops. So we were preoccupied. I didn't really think of my safety.
LIN: It sounded like you were really acting on instinct. I want to bring in one of your fellow soldiers who was also there at My Lai, in Lafayette, Louisiana right now, fomer Army helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson. Mr. Thompson, it's good to have you as well.
THOMPSON: Thank you very much.
LIN: When you look back, just as I was asking Larry Colburn, when you look back on that day, did you think it was possible that American soldiers, as they were massacring innocent civilians in this village, as you were stepping in to stop this massacre, did you think that you might have to pay a price on that spot right then and there? THOMPSON: I don't know if I thought it through that far. I figured I might have to pay a price for intervening, but, you know, threatening to kill somebody that outranked me, but I didn't think about them shooting me, I don't think.
LIN: Mr. Colburn, did the Army support you, and for what you did?
COLBURN: Well, during the course of My Lai, there were mixed feelings, but after it happened, we were on to the next mission.
LIN: Did they reward you? Were you commended for your actions?
COLBURN: Yes. I think Hugh received a Distinguished Frying Cross and I was given a Bronze Star. But they were later changed to the Soldier's Medal, a more appropriate medal for what we did.
LIN: Did you feel afterwards that you were treated as a hero by your fellow soldiers, and by the military, the Pentagon?
COLBURN: We don't need the hero word. As Mr. Thompson said many times, we were just doing our job. We weren't blowing whistles, we just went up the chain of command with something we thought was grossly inappropriate.
LIN: Because I'm wondering what the military mentality was at the time, whether there is something about closing ranks, even when you witness something so horrendous. Some of the people in Iraq, at Abu Ghraib, said they were afraid to come forward because they didn't know what the reaction would be. There's a sense of peer pressure and the image of being a united front as American soldiers.
COLBURN: Well, at the time of My Lai, there were so many young people and children and babies involved that I didn't really care what the repercussions were. There was something that had to be done. And Mr. Thompson had the intestinal fortitude to do it.
LIN: Mr. Thompson, what was your reaction when you heard about what was happening at Abu Ghraib in Iraq?
THOMPSON: I haven't had enough information on it really to have a firm opinion.
LIN: You've seen the pictures? You know that these are fellow countrymen who were taking these pictures, piling up naked bodies, acts of humiliation in that prison?
THOMPSON: I've seen some of the pictures. And that's not an action that a U.S. soldier should be doing.
LIN: Do you think it takes some guts, though, for a man like Joe Darby to come forward,, a young man, someone who was in your position?
THOMPSON: I think it's something that had to be done. And apparently he paid attention in his military classes. LIN: Larry Colburn, do you understand why it took some time for people to come forward? For these pictures to be released, for the story to be told?
COLBURN: How much time did it take? I don't know.
LIN: Months.
COLBURN: I don't know how current they are.
LIN: It was months. I mean, it took some time. It wasn't as if these acts were happening, that young soldiers were calling home and saying, somebody's got to stop this.
COLBURN: Well, I think what the people did that were working in the prison was completely and totally unacceptable. And I was shocked by it. It's so bizarre, I can't even really comprehend it.
But the enlisted men and the lieutenant that backed him up, there is a parallel between Hugh Thompson and myself, it looks to be that way.
LIN: It certainly does. Well, two brave men, and we'll remember you today. Thank you very much. Larry Colburn, Hugh Thompson.
COLBURN: Thank you very much.
THOMPSON: Thank you.
LIN: Passing laws, and clearing court in a sensitive family matter coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't get it with the recent ruling, so we're appealing it to the appellate court. And if need be, we'll go to the Supreme Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Up next, going all the way in the Terri Schiavo case. I'm going to be talking to Florida governor Jeb Bush's attorney.
Plus, there may be a reason for you to switch jobs. Still to come, we're going to show you how 1 company is keeping it's working moms happy.
And later, striking it rich at the casinos: how one group of college students used mathematical skills to break the bank in Vegas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: Another chapter in the heart wrenching story of Terri Schiavo is playing out in the Florida courts. A law that allowed her parents to reinsert her feeding tube has been declared unconstitutional, but the fight does go on. Reporter Chuck Johnson of Bay News 9 has more details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm disappointed. I'm very disappointed.
CHUCK JOHNSON, BAY NEWS 9: Disappointed, but not surprised. That's how Governor Jeb Bush reacted to Thursday's ruling by circuit judge Edward Baird. The judge declared the measure known as Terri's Law violates the state constitution. Lawmakers passed the law in October. It allowed Governor Bush to allow Terri Schiavo's feeding tube to be reinserted after she had gone 6 days without nourishment.
Judge Baird ruled the law encroaches on judicial power. But Governor Bush says lawmakers should have the prerogative to pass such laws in the name of the people.
GOV. JEB BUSH, (R) FLORIDA: If legislature passes a law, it should be given a hearing on whether it is constitutional or not. And that's what we've been seeking. And we didn't get it with the recent ruling. So we're appealing it to the appellate court. And if need be, we'll go to the Supreme Court.
JOHNSON: Attorneys for Michael Schiavo say they will not try to remove Terri's feeding tube until the appeal is heard.
(on camera): Governor Bush says he will continue to fight to keep Terri Schiavo alive using any legal means he has at his disposal. In Tampa, Chuck Johnson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: All right, as you just heard in that report Governor Bush is already appealing Thursday's ruling. His filing will keep Terri Schiavo's life support tubes from being taken out in the meantime.
Ken Conner is an attorney for Governor Bush. And he joins us right now from Washington. Ken, thank you very much for being here.
KEN CONNER, ATTY FOR JEB BUSH: Thank you, Carol. I'm delighted to be here.
LIN: I just want to make it clear to folks, because obviously this case has been going on for so long, Terri Schiavo in this state for the last 14 years. If her own husband says that was his wife's wishes that she not be kept in a vegetative state, why is it that the state of Florida is trying so hard to allow her to stay alive?
CONNER: Well, first of all, her husband has very serious credibility problems. When he sought to recover millions of dollars in a civil suit in connection with her collapse, he never told a civil jury that Terri's desire was to die under these circumstances. The testimony was in fact that she would live her normal life expectancy. And millions would be needed to take care of her.
Additionally, he said his intention was to take care of her for the rest of her life. As soon, though, as he had the money in hand, he put her cats to sleep, he melted down her wedding rings and made a ring of his own and he was consorting with other women, one of whom -- by whom he's had two children.
This is hardly the kind of man, with this obvious conflict of interest, who should be making this decision. Terri was not afforded an independent legal representative. She didn't have the benefit of a guardian ad litem. And what Terri's Law did was to ensure that she had just such a representative.
LIN: Well, her parents have accused that the husband was trying to actually get some sort of life insurance policy as well. But much of the money has been drained away. There isn't, I think, anything financially for him gain anmore, isn't there?
CONNER: Most of the money was actually spent by Michael Schiavo by trying to hasten her death, when in fact it was supposed to be used to improve the quality of her life.
LIN: All right. So, if the money doesn't exist anymore, and he's still putting up this fight, I mean, does it make for a case that he really is trying to represent her best interests and final wishes?
CONNER: I think not. We don't know what kind of pressure Michael is under from his live-in girlfriend with whom he's sired two children. Is there pressure on him to bring Terri's life to an end so that he can marry this other woman?
You know, Michael has run like a scalded dog, in our case, from being -- from having his hand put up and be put under oath. There are too many questions that we think need to be answered before one can confidently say this man should be permitted to starve and dehydrate his former wife to death.
LIN: So, what's going to happen next then?
CONNER: Well, we've appealed this case to the second district court of appeal. There's an automatic stay that we believe should preserve the status quo and keep Terri alive during the pendency of the litigation. But contrary to the earlier report, apparently Mr. Filos has indicated that if he has the opportunity to pull the tube and starve Terri to death, they're going to seriously consider that even during the pendency of the litigation.
LIN: Obviously the story not over yet. Thank you very much, Ken Conner.
CONNER: Thank you.
LIN: What's the price for stepping over the line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...that performed the act. Yes, they need to be punished.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LIN: Up next, hear what one former Abu Ghraib Prison guard has to say about the prisoner abuse scandal.
Prayer and song, it was a sweet Sunday morning in former Iraq hostage Thomas Hamill's hometown. We're going to take you there.
And later, a company that has take your child to work day every day. We're going to be explaining, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired May 9, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN SUNDAY is ahead, but first I've got these headlines. Sad news from the world of comedy: comedian, actor Alan King has died of lung cancer in New York. He was 76 years-old. King's career spanned more than half a cenury in night clubs, television, Broadway and the movies.
At least 6 people were wounded at the Four Seasons hotel in Baghdad when a bomb exploded. A hotel employee says the victims are British and Nepalese contractors. The bomb was apparently placed outside the hotel, but it ripped through a bar inside where the foreign contractors were sitting.
The remaining Spanish troops in Iraq may leave befor the May 27 pullout date. Spain's new defense minister Jose Bono is hinting that if the security situation in Iraq improves, his troops will go home sooner. Bono made a surprise visit to Spanish troops south of Baghdad today.
I'm Carol Lin, and welcome to CNN LIVE SUNDAY. Ahead at this hour, they have a winning touch, but these winners won way too much. And now they're banned from casinos around the world. Who are they and how did they do it. I'm going to be talking to one of them ahead in this hour.
And a day in the life of a former hostage in Iraq. Wea re going to go to Thomas Hamill's hometown as he spends his first weekend back home.
But right now, we begin with the first soldier to face court- martial in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Specialist Jeremy Sivit could face a year in prison if convicted of the charges against him. The proceedings will begin May 19.
Meanwhile, another new disturbing photo has emerged. CNN's Elaine Quijano joins us now from the Pentagon with more on that. What is it, Elaine?
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did acknowledge to lawmakers on Friday that hundreds of photos do exist and may surface.
Well, now, Americans are getting a look at yet another one.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO (voice-over): This time, the picture shows a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib Prison, cowering, surrounded by what appear to be men in uniforms with dogs at their sides. "The New Yorker" magazine published the photo along with another article by Seymour Hersh in which he says the evidence suggests cameras were part of the interrogation process to gain leverage.
SEYMOUR HERSH, THE NEW YORKER: To threaten a prisoner with -- with taking these photographs and showing them to neighbors or showing them to others, it would be a greater source of humiliation to have others actually see the problems he had in prison.
QUIJANO: A senior Pentagon official says the pictures are all evidence in an ongoing investigation. Lawmakers may get the chance to privately view yet unseen photos. The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Republican John Warner, says the committee is working with the Pentagon in advance of a Tuesday hearing.
SEN. JOHN WARNER (D-VA) CHAIRMAN ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: How much they could be made public remains to be seen. But the Pentagon is certainly at this point in time cooperating with us in putting our hearing together.
QUIJANO: Family, friends and an attorney for one of the accused, Specialist Charles Graner, say the soldiers acted not on their own, but at the direction of their superiors in military intelligence.
GUY WOMACK, SPC. CHARLES GRANER'S ATTY: I've only seen about seven photos. And those were ones that he was ordered to have taken.
QUIJANO: The Pentagon continues to investigate. The CIA is due to finish its own report on the abuse allegations in two to three weeks, according to Republican Senator Pat Roberts who chairs the Central Intelligence Committee. And now, one of the 7 accused, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, faces a bad conduct discharge and is said to be court-martialed May 19.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. MILITARY SPOKESMAN: The three charges against Specialist Sivits are: conspiracy to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty for negligently failing to protect detainees from abuse, cruelty and maltreatment, and maltreatment of detainees.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: The military says that the court-martial will take place at coalition headquarters in Baghdad and will be open to the media. It's part of the Pentagon's effort to make transparent, especially in the Arab world, the process of meting out military justice -- Carol.
LIN: All right. Thank you very much. Elain Quijano live at the Pentagon.
Well, should Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld resign because of the scandal? That was the talk on the Sunday talk shows. CNN White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux joins us now -- Suzanne. SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House officials say the focus is no longer on Rumsfeld, the president is satisfied with the explanation and the apology, the focus now on how to best handle those new photos to come.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): President Bush enduring one of the most damaging weeks of his presidency and bracing himself for the release of even more graphic photos and video of prisoner abuse. He will continue to stand by his beleaguered defense secretary, aides say, but his support is not quieted the furor over Secretary Rumsfeld's fate.
GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FRM. DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it would be patriotic if secretary Rumsfeld resigned.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R) NEBRASKA: It's still in question whether Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and quite frankly, General Myers, can command the respect and the trust and the confidence of the military and the American people.
LAWRENCE EAGLEBURGER, FRM. SECRETARY OF STATE: I think it's nonsense. The secretary of defense ought to be judged on how well we does his overall job, not whether some group of people in Iraq, where he could not possibly have known about it at the time, did what they did.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN, (D) DELAWARE: I don't give a damn about Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld going seems to me an essential first step.
MALVEAUX: Lawmakers who appeared on TV were followed by a half dozen anti-war protesters. One dressed like an Iraqi prisoner who was forced to hold wires and threatened with electrocution.
Despite the scandal, White House officials say the president's support of the secretary has not waned. Having led the country through two wars, and efforts to transform the military, Rumsfeld is considered too valuable to lose. And so far, his support from the Republican leadership has not cracked.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: If you're calling for his resignation, you're missing the boat. If you're in the White House say get off his back, you're missing the boat. The problem we have before us as a nation and in the Congress, and private citizens as well, is how do we show the world we can did better.
MALVEAUX: Some Democratic lawmakers believe that responsibility is on the president.
SEN. EVAN BAYH, (D) INDIANA: Don Rumsfeld works for the president. He's ins stewarting the president's policy. So, the question should be, are the president's policies being effective in Iraq or not? Do we need a new president or not?
(END VIDEOTAPE) MALVEAUX: Now, tomorrow, President Bush will travel to the Pentagon for a military briefing for an update on the war on terror also about those photos and the prison scandal. But aides say that afterwards he will stand shoulder to shoulder with Secretary Rumsfeld to show his support -- Carol.
LIN: Thank you very much, Suzanne Malveaux live at the White House.
In the meantime, Iraqi police are blaming another improvised explosive device for an explosion at a crowded market in Baghdad. It happened right after a raid in one of the city's suburbs. CNN's Ben Wedeman reports from the Iraqi capital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The smoldering Shiite uprising reignites in Baghdad's Sadr city. Following an American raid over night, that netted two top deputies of militant Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
A coalition spokesman said 18 militants were killed in clashes. While local residents accused American forces of targeting civilians as well as fighters.
We are family sitting at home, says this Sadr city resident. The Americans shelled us with tanks and machine guns. Is this a war zone? This is just a poor neighborhood.
Early Sunday, a bomb ripped through a crowded market in Southwest Baghdad killing at least five people including a child. More than a dozen people were wounded, among them, six policemen. And here, shock mixes with growing disillusion with the new Iraq.
This is the freedom they want, says this man, who witnessed the blast. People cut into shreds in the street. What did we do wrong.
Sunday, the coalition provisional authority announced that the first court-martial for a military policemen allegedly involved in prisoner abuse would begin in Baghdad on May 19. The first to go on trial, 24 year-old Specialist Jeremy Sivits.
KIMMITT: The three charges against Specialist Sivits are: conspiracy to maltreatment -- to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty for failing to protect detainees from abuse, and maltreatment of detainees.
WEDEMAN: Six other military policemen, in addition to Sivits, are the subject of a criminal investigation. Protesters in Baghdad echoed growing public anger in Iraq over the prisoner abuse scandal yet another front where the beleaguered U.S.-led coalition is under fire. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: It was a daring attempt to save lives. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank God that everybody played it real cool. And they just held their crowd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: And they took on the American military to blow the whistle on what happened in the village of My Lai during the Vietnam War. Still to come, I'm going to be talking to them.
Plus, the Terri Schiavo case the family issue that continues to grab government's attention. I'm going to be talking to the attorney for Florida governor, Jeb Bush in that case.
And catering to moms. Stick around, that is the goal of one Fortune 500 company doing things for women.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: The abuses at Abu Ghraib Prison would not have come to light if someone hadn't stepped forward and blown the whistle on his fellow soldiers. One in particular, Specialist Thomas Darby slipped an anonymous note to his superior telling about the abuses. He later came forward with an official statement. Specialist Darby is still on duty overseas, but here at home, officials say he's been commended for alerting superiors. Even Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld specifically mentioned him during his testimony before Congress.
But it's not as simple as just doing the right thing. Just ask the American soldiers who blew the whistle and stopped one of the worst civilian massacres by U.S. troops. Yes, U.S. troops, during the vietnam war.
I'm going to be talking to those men in just a moment. But first, here is their heroic story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN (voice-over): When he was young, Hugh Thompson didn't look the other way when others were bullied.
CWO HUGH THOMPSON, FRM. VIETNAM HELICOPTER PILOT: I know when I was in high school, I couldn't stand the other -- stand the bully. I would always kind of get on the other side for the underdog and help him out or pull for him.
LIN: March 16, 1968, Thompson, a 24-year-old U.S. Army helicopter pilot in Vietnam spotted something terribly wrong when flying over the village of My Lai.
THOMPSON: We noticed vast numbers of bodies, old women, old men, babies, infants that were dead or wounded.
LIN: As Thompson and his crew Larry Colbern, 19 and crew chief Glen Andriotta, 18, flew closer to the ground. They saw American soldiers killing villagers. Thompson saw three civilians running from American troops, trying to take cover in a bunker.
THOMPSON: We set the aircraft down, and confronted the soldiers. And we weren't going to take part in operations like this.
LIN: Thompson and his crew did something that could have cost them their own lives or their military careers. They turned their weapons on fellow Americans and ordered them to stop shooting. Thompson then asked his countrymen to help him save the three civilians hiding in the bunker.
THOMPSON: I was told you could get them out with a hand grenade. I hold them to hold their troops where they were. I think I could do better than that. And, you know, y'all just stay right here. I've already told my people to open up if y'all open up. Thank God that everybody played it real cool then, and they just held their ground.
I went over to the bunker and motioned for them to come out. And they were very reluctant to come out into the arms, you might say, of an American. I didn't have a weapon drawn. And I guess they decided it would be better taking their chance with me than with the other people.
LIN: Thompson's intervention stopped the Mailai massacre, but only after 504 Vietnamese were killed. Nearly half of whom were younger than 12 or over 70.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: It is now my pleasure to introduce the man who is at My Lai. Former U.S. Army gunner Larry Colburn. Mr. Colburn, it's a pleasure to have you here.
LARRY COLBURN, FRM. U.S. ARMY GUNNER: Hello.
LIN: When you think about that fateful day, do you really feel that you were risking your lives? Did you think that American soldiers would actually open fire on a fellow American?
COLBURN: No. At the time it never really crossed my mind. We knew we had to act quickly, because these people had just a few seconds before they encountered the oncoming American troops. So we were preoccupied. I didn't really think of my safety.
LIN: It sounded like you were really acting on instinct. I want to bring in one of your fellow soldiers who was also there at My Lai, in Lafayette, Louisiana right now, fomer Army helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson. Mr. Thompson, it's good to have you as well.
THOMPSON: Thank you very much.
LIN: When you look back, just as I was asking Larry Colburn, when you look back on that day, did you think it was possible that American soldiers, as they were massacring innocent civilians in this village, as you were stepping in to stop this massacre, did you think that you might have to pay a price on that spot right then and there? THOMPSON: I don't know if I thought it through that far. I figured I might have to pay a price for intervening, but, you know, threatening to kill somebody that outranked me, but I didn't think about them shooting me, I don't think.
LIN: Mr. Colburn, did the Army support you, and for what you did?
COLBURN: Well, during the course of My Lai, there were mixed feelings, but after it happened, we were on to the next mission.
LIN: Did they reward you? Were you commended for your actions?
COLBURN: Yes. I think Hugh received a Distinguished Frying Cross and I was given a Bronze Star. But they were later changed to the Soldier's Medal, a more appropriate medal for what we did.
LIN: Did you feel afterwards that you were treated as a hero by your fellow soldiers, and by the military, the Pentagon?
COLBURN: We don't need the hero word. As Mr. Thompson said many times, we were just doing our job. We weren't blowing whistles, we just went up the chain of command with something we thought was grossly inappropriate.
LIN: Because I'm wondering what the military mentality was at the time, whether there is something about closing ranks, even when you witness something so horrendous. Some of the people in Iraq, at Abu Ghraib, said they were afraid to come forward because they didn't know what the reaction would be. There's a sense of peer pressure and the image of being a united front as American soldiers.
COLBURN: Well, at the time of My Lai, there were so many young people and children and babies involved that I didn't really care what the repercussions were. There was something that had to be done. And Mr. Thompson had the intestinal fortitude to do it.
LIN: Mr. Thompson, what was your reaction when you heard about what was happening at Abu Ghraib in Iraq?
THOMPSON: I haven't had enough information on it really to have a firm opinion.
LIN: You've seen the pictures? You know that these are fellow countrymen who were taking these pictures, piling up naked bodies, acts of humiliation in that prison?
THOMPSON: I've seen some of the pictures. And that's not an action that a U.S. soldier should be doing.
LIN: Do you think it takes some guts, though, for a man like Joe Darby to come forward,, a young man, someone who was in your position?
THOMPSON: I think it's something that had to be done. And apparently he paid attention in his military classes. LIN: Larry Colburn, do you understand why it took some time for people to come forward? For these pictures to be released, for the story to be told?
COLBURN: How much time did it take? I don't know.
LIN: Months.
COLBURN: I don't know how current they are.
LIN: It was months. I mean, it took some time. It wasn't as if these acts were happening, that young soldiers were calling home and saying, somebody's got to stop this.
COLBURN: Well, I think what the people did that were working in the prison was completely and totally unacceptable. And I was shocked by it. It's so bizarre, I can't even really comprehend it.
But the enlisted men and the lieutenant that backed him up, there is a parallel between Hugh Thompson and myself, it looks to be that way.
LIN: It certainly does. Well, two brave men, and we'll remember you today. Thank you very much. Larry Colburn, Hugh Thompson.
COLBURN: Thank you very much.
THOMPSON: Thank you.
LIN: Passing laws, and clearing court in a sensitive family matter coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't get it with the recent ruling, so we're appealing it to the appellate court. And if need be, we'll go to the Supreme Court.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LIN: Up next, going all the way in the Terri Schiavo case. I'm going to be talking to Florida governor Jeb Bush's attorney.
Plus, there may be a reason for you to switch jobs. Still to come, we're going to show you how 1 company is keeping it's working moms happy.
And later, striking it rich at the casinos: how one group of college students used mathematical skills to break the bank in Vegas.
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LIN: Another chapter in the heart wrenching story of Terri Schiavo is playing out in the Florida courts. A law that allowed her parents to reinsert her feeding tube has been declared unconstitutional, but the fight does go on. Reporter Chuck Johnson of Bay News 9 has more details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm disappointed. I'm very disappointed.
CHUCK JOHNSON, BAY NEWS 9: Disappointed, but not surprised. That's how Governor Jeb Bush reacted to Thursday's ruling by circuit judge Edward Baird. The judge declared the measure known as Terri's Law violates the state constitution. Lawmakers passed the law in October. It allowed Governor Bush to allow Terri Schiavo's feeding tube to be reinserted after she had gone 6 days without nourishment.
Judge Baird ruled the law encroaches on judicial power. But Governor Bush says lawmakers should have the prerogative to pass such laws in the name of the people.
GOV. JEB BUSH, (R) FLORIDA: If legislature passes a law, it should be given a hearing on whether it is constitutional or not. And that's what we've been seeking. And we didn't get it with the recent ruling. So we're appealing it to the appellate court. And if need be, we'll go to the Supreme Court.
JOHNSON: Attorneys for Michael Schiavo say they will not try to remove Terri's feeding tube until the appeal is heard.
(on camera): Governor Bush says he will continue to fight to keep Terri Schiavo alive using any legal means he has at his disposal. In Tampa, Chuck Johnson.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: All right, as you just heard in that report Governor Bush is already appealing Thursday's ruling. His filing will keep Terri Schiavo's life support tubes from being taken out in the meantime.
Ken Conner is an attorney for Governor Bush. And he joins us right now from Washington. Ken, thank you very much for being here.
KEN CONNER, ATTY FOR JEB BUSH: Thank you, Carol. I'm delighted to be here.
LIN: I just want to make it clear to folks, because obviously this case has been going on for so long, Terri Schiavo in this state for the last 14 years. If her own husband says that was his wife's wishes that she not be kept in a vegetative state, why is it that the state of Florida is trying so hard to allow her to stay alive?
CONNER: Well, first of all, her husband has very serious credibility problems. When he sought to recover millions of dollars in a civil suit in connection with her collapse, he never told a civil jury that Terri's desire was to die under these circumstances. The testimony was in fact that she would live her normal life expectancy. And millions would be needed to take care of her.
Additionally, he said his intention was to take care of her for the rest of her life. As soon, though, as he had the money in hand, he put her cats to sleep, he melted down her wedding rings and made a ring of his own and he was consorting with other women, one of whom -- by whom he's had two children.
This is hardly the kind of man, with this obvious conflict of interest, who should be making this decision. Terri was not afforded an independent legal representative. She didn't have the benefit of a guardian ad litem. And what Terri's Law did was to ensure that she had just such a representative.
LIN: Well, her parents have accused that the husband was trying to actually get some sort of life insurance policy as well. But much of the money has been drained away. There isn't, I think, anything financially for him gain anmore, isn't there?
CONNER: Most of the money was actually spent by Michael Schiavo by trying to hasten her death, when in fact it was supposed to be used to improve the quality of her life.
LIN: All right. So, if the money doesn't exist anymore, and he's still putting up this fight, I mean, does it make for a case that he really is trying to represent her best interests and final wishes?
CONNER: I think not. We don't know what kind of pressure Michael is under from his live-in girlfriend with whom he's sired two children. Is there pressure on him to bring Terri's life to an end so that he can marry this other woman?
You know, Michael has run like a scalded dog, in our case, from being -- from having his hand put up and be put under oath. There are too many questions that we think need to be answered before one can confidently say this man should be permitted to starve and dehydrate his former wife to death.
LIN: So, what's going to happen next then?
CONNER: Well, we've appealed this case to the second district court of appeal. There's an automatic stay that we believe should preserve the status quo and keep Terri alive during the pendency of the litigation. But contrary to the earlier report, apparently Mr. Filos has indicated that if he has the opportunity to pull the tube and starve Terri to death, they're going to seriously consider that even during the pendency of the litigation.
LIN: Obviously the story not over yet. Thank you very much, Ken Conner.
CONNER: Thank you.
LIN: What's the price for stepping over the line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...that performed the act. Yes, they need to be punished.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LIN: Up next, hear what one former Abu Ghraib Prison guard has to say about the prisoner abuse scandal.
Prayer and song, it was a sweet Sunday morning in former Iraq hostage Thomas Hamill's hometown. We're going to take you there.
And later, a company that has take your child to work day every day. We're going to be explaining, coming up.
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