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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Backs Rumsfeld; President's Approval Rating Dips
Aired May 10, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, May 10. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
President Bush today strongly maintained that his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, is doing what the president called a superb job. President Bush, at the Pentagon, with Rumsfeld at his side, praised the defense secretary for his courageous leadership.
Senior White House correspondent John King reports -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, that dramatic visit to the Pentagon coming not only so the president could offer his public support for the Defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, but also so Mr. Bush could get a firsthand look at how this prisoner abuse scandal could well get worse before it gets any better.
Now, of course, Democrats have been insisting the defense secretary should take accountability and responsibility for the scandal and that he should resign. Mr. Bush has said no in the past. The vice president over the weekend said no. The president here on Donald Rumsfeld's own turf, just outside his office at the Pentagon, says he wants the defense secretary to stay right where he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you for your leadership. You are courageously leading our nation in the war against terror. You are doing a superb job. You are a strong secretary of defense. And our nation owes you a debt of gratitude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Secretary Rumsfeld also walked Mr. Bush out of the Pentagon after showing him in closed doors in the secretary's office more than a dozen we are told color classified photos yet to be released in the prisoner abuse scandal, all of them graphic, many of them we are told showing inappropriate sexual behavior by U.S. military personnel in the presence of those Iraqi prisoners.
Mr. Bush today insisting that these abuses are isolated. And in an interview with Armed Forces Radio and Television, the president also trying to boost the morale of the troops still serving in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: The world will see that the American people are disgusted by the behavior of a very few people. The troops need to hear from me that I understand that those over there in the Iraqi theater are good, decent, honorable citizens who are not only fighting the bad guys, but are making life better for the innocent people of Iraq. And there's thousands of acts of kindness that take place every day and I know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You heard the president there lay the blame on -- quote -- "a few people." That is the line of his press secretary here at the White House, though, Lou, they did acknowledge today that late last year the administration was warned by the International Committee of the Red Cross that it was compiling a report detailing what it believes to be much more systemic abuses at the prisons in Iraq.
And, again, those new pictures, the president saw some of them today. Congress is getting a flavor of some of them this afternoon. The Pentagon for now says it has no plans to release them. Here at the White House they fully expect somehow the photos will become public in the near future. They don't want them leaked, Lou. They want somehow to control that release, but no decision just yet on how to do that.
DOBBS: Whether they want to control them or not, how much trouble does the White House staff think it's in right now?
KING: It thinks that this will get worse, both in terms of the outrage here in the United States, the outrage across the Arab world, the impact on the president's political number. And we're seeing that fallout as well.
The administration says there are more digital photographs, also some digital video clips, if you will, showing graphic detail worse than what we have seen already, is how officials are describing it. And, Lou, they want to keep it under wraps for now because of the investigation. They know at some point either through a release orchestrated by this White House -- and that is the most likely scenario -- or some leak, that these photos will become public and probably officials here believe quite soon.
DOBBS: Soon. And is it the judgment there at the White House that they can control this? Or is it the judgment there at the White House that they had better move quickly to resolve as much of this scandal as possible?
KING: They believe they need to move quickly. Right now, carrying the day are the argument from Pentagon lawyers and others who say, for the sanctity of the investigation, you have to keep those photos private. But nobody expects that argument to hold very long.
DOBBS: John King, senior White House correspondent, thank you.
Well, as John just reported, defense officials showing the president a number of photographs of the prisoner abuse. Senior defense officials say there are also of small -- a small number in point of fact of video clips.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has that report -- Jamie McIntyre.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, there are about 1,000 images altogether, but we're told that many of them are innocuous, pictures of innocent horseplay and just snapshots.
But of that 1,000 pictures that are on three different discs, two to 300 by one count do document further abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. soldiers. According to Pentagon -- according one official who seen some of the digital video clips that are included say they show -- quote -- "abuse and humiliation" consistent with what is seen in the still pictures. Other Pentagon officials who have not seen the videos said that they do show two U.S. soldiers, a male and a female, having sex with each other.
And some of the worst pictures we're told show Iraqi prisoners sodomized with various objects, including chemical light sticks. Now, the first soldier to face trial does not appear in any of the photographs, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, the first to be court- martialed. Sources say he may have taken some of the photographs and may plead guilty in a plea bargain arrangement. His trial next week in Iraq will be open to news coverage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: People of Iraq will certainly have the same access that the international audience will have. It is a practice of the U.S. military that in an open hearing we allow family, we allow observers, we allow print reporters. It has not been our practice in the past to allow cameras inside. I think there is a concern that this is not a show trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: I have to say, Lou, the Pentagon has some mixed emotions about getting all these pictures out. Some of the officials I talked to are concerned it will compromise investigations that are going on. Perhaps some guilty people will get off because of that down the road. Some of them also express, though, concern that the release of the picture itself could further violate the Geneva Convention against humiliating prisoners.
But, on the other hand, some very senior people here at the Pentagon are advocating, get all the pictures out, get the videos out, take your lumps, so that these do not dribble out, that you don't have a situation where these are leaked weeks, days, months down the road -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you -- Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
CNN has obtained a Red Cross report that says up to 90 percent of the Iraqis captured by coalition troops were arrested by mistake. The Red Cross report also says that in some cases the coalition used interrogation methods that were -- quote -- "tantamount to torture." Red Cross officials examined conditions at coalition prisons in Basra, Ramadi and Tikrit between March and November of last year.
The Army general who wrote a highly critical report of the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners gives testimony on Capitol Hill tomorrow. Major General Antonio Taguba testifies before the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Congressional correspondent Joe Johns with the report -- John (sic).
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, Taguba is the author of that scathing report that has been read and reread around the world.
We are told here at CNN that the annexes to that report, hundreds and hundreds of pages of documentation indicating the abuses at the prison in Iraq, have now been sent here to the Senate for senators to read. Senators will be interested in asking Taguba about the annexes. Also a key question, were members of the U.S. military involved in these pictures actually operating on orders or were they acting alone? One key question at least for General Antonio Taguba.
Meanwhile, top senators on the Senate Armed Services Committee have continued to try to pound out an agreement whereby those pictures and video, if possible, may be seen by certain members of the Senate. The question is how many senators might get the opportunity to view the pictures and the video, whether it should just be the leaders, whether it should be just members of the Armed Services Committee, or the Senate at large. There's also a question as to whether to recommended to the administration that all of the pictures be released, of course, a very key question here.
A number of senators we at CNN have talked to have said they would like to see all of the pictures released because they are concerned even if they say no those pictures will get out into the public anyway -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, Joe, the pressure for Donald Rumsfeld to resign, has it abated, or what?
JOHNS: Well, there are a lot of senators, particularly Republicans, who say it is simply premature, it's too early to talk about the resignation of Secretary Rumsfeld. There are, of course, many Democrats who have called for his resignation and have called for the president in fact to fire him.
However, a number of people have said at least part of this hinges on the damage that may occur if more photos are released. There's particularly a question as to whether the trickling out of information, photos and videos over a long period of time, could do increasing political damage to the United States and its interests abroad.
All of these lead a number of senators, particularly in the Republican Party, to say they are not sure this is the time to even talk about the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld, Lou.
DOBBS: Unfortunately, for their perspective, it's not entirely up to them.
Joe Johns from congressional hill, thank you, sir.
More on the prisoner abuse scandal next. The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Pat Roberts, joins me. We'll talk about the impact on this scandal on U.S. policy in Iraq, the Middle East and the future of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
American troops in Iraq destroy the Baghdad headquarters of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. We'll have that report for you.
And President Bush's approval rating has fallen to the lowest level of his presidency. CNN political analyst Bill Schneider will be here to assess all of the numbers behind that polling.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says it's too early to decide whether Secretary Rumsfeld should stay in the job or go. Senator Pat Roberts is chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He's also a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, both committees holding hearings on the prisoner abuse scandal.
Senator Roberts joins me tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you here.
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: It's always a pleasure, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: This, the appearance with Donald Rumsfeld by the president at the Pentagon, that kind of staging, is it effective for whatever the interests are of this administration?
ROBERTS: Well, obviously, the president thinks so. And I think he's standing by his secretary of defense. I can sort of anticipate your next question. What do I think?
I think it would be very premature right now for Rumsfeld to step down. I know the question is, can he be effective? But there's a couple other questions I want to know. If he did step down, what would that do to the morale of our troops in regards to our troops in Iraq? And then, secondly, what would it do in the minds of the terrorists? And so I think that has to weigh in. And then you -- obviously, we're in the middle of transformation. He's the architect of it.
So until we find out all of the facts in regards to this prison scandal, I think it would be premature for him to step down.
DOBBS: Well, Senator, are you among those that think that there are levels of effort available to the terrorists, that if emboldened by this scandal, in emboldened by the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld, that they could raise the level of their terror in some way?
ROBERTS: I think it would be a morale victory for them. I think it would be something that would give them a lot of confidence and not only in Iraq, but worldwide, that they under the circumstances had simply brought the secretary of defense to his knees. Of course, that hasn't got anything to do with actually what happened.
And in addition, I'm not aware the secretary has any direct involvement at all in regard to the prison scandal. Let's wait until we get the facts out.
DOBBS: I was just simply inquiring as to the line of reasoning there, Senator. And obfuscated in some ways, but certainly we are distracted in others from the events that are going on in Iraq, in point of fact, Najaf now Sadr city under the control, Kufa, much of it under the control of Muqtada al-Sadr. This is not going well. And...
ROBERTS: No, it's not going well.
DOBBS: And this is, it seems to me, something we have -- something we expect to be sharply in focus in Washington. What are you thinking? What is the Republican leadership in the Senate thinking? And what is this administration thinking about the course that is being followed right now?
ROBERTS: Well, the course right now is an effort to try to convince some of the more moderate clerics that that's not an oxymoron and more especially Sistani to take a more positive stance to isolate Sadr.
You don't want Sadr in power. And so whatever we can do to isolate that, to make advances, to improve the security in that particular part of Iraq, well, that's what we have to do. Unfortunately, you now have a firestorm in regards to what is going on at the prison scandal. And that seems to dominate everything here in Washington right now, as opposed to what we ought to be thinking about.
DOBBS: Well, in addition, relating to the prison scandal, all that is happening right now with the insurgents in Iraq, both Sunni and Shia, the level of intelligence that was being gathered by U.S. military intelligence, CIA, from those prisons, the fact that 90 percent of the people arrested and put in those prisons were mistaken arrests by the coalition. What is your reaction to that?
ROBERTS: I'm not sure I understood the question, Lou. You sort of -- I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: There are a couple of questions. Let me be clear.
ROBERTS: OK.
DOBBS: And, if you will, I apologize to you and to our viewers if I wasn't clear.
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERTS: You were -- I couldn't hear it.
DOBBS: The Red Cross basically found that 90 percent of those arrested by the coalition in the prisons after surveying three principal prisons were mistakes. Secondly, the intelligence, we have heard very little about the quality of the intelligence that has been gathered from interrogation in those prisons. What's your reaction?
ROBERTS: Well, I'm glad you raised that issue because the interrogation is absolutely essential to the best intelligence you can get to stop the bombing of the U.N., to stop the bombing of the mosques, to stop the bombing of embassies.
Now, as to the quality of the intelligence, obviously, if the security continues to be a problem, part of that is intelligence. And part of that is the efforts of the terrorists. Everybody seems to be ignoring the terrorists here in terms of the effectiveness of how they fight. Now, we are trying to do the intelligence in a right way which led eventually to the discovery and the capture of, say, Saddam Hussein.
But the thing that worries me so much is and that has stunned me so much is that, in the intelligence community, they know what the criteria is. It's like black and white. And this conduct, no leadership, no discipline, and no training, now, that's the thing that we have to fix. Once it is exposed, once the facts are there and we do have all the annexes to the report by the general involved, we're going to have to have a lot of study and we're going to have to do a lot of fixing before we get to the end of this.
DOBBS: Senator Pat Roberts, thank you for being here.
ROBERTS: Yes, sir. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll on the issue of Iraq. Do you believe the United States should withdrawal, stay the course, or change strategy? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
In Iraq today, the coalition reported U.S. troops killed 35 gunmen loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr in a series of battles in Baghdad over just the past two days. The coalition has stepped up its attacks against al-Sadr's gunmen in a number of cities in central and southern Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): In Sadr City, U.S. forces destroyed the headquarters of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
KIMMITT: Coalition forces observed numerous counts of RPG fire from the alleyways directed to their elements as they approached the Sadr bureau and encountered numerous other engagements during the early morning. Coalition forces then initiated the destruction of the building.
DOBBS: U.S. forces killed 19 insurgents in Sadr City; 16 more were killed in another section of Baghdad. Four people were wounded when insurgents detonated an improvised explosive device at the Four Seasons hotel. Elsewhere in Baghdad, one American was killed when his Humvee collided with a U.S. tank.
Another U.S. soldier was killed in the northern city of Mosul when insurgents opened fire on patrol. In Kirkuk, including a South African and New Zealander, were killed in a drive-by shooting in the center of town. And in Kufa, two insurgents were killed in battles with American soldiers. In Fallujah, U.S. forces reentered the city with the Iraq Civil Defense Corps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a good day for peace in Fallujah, a peaceful day. You see it. Drove all the way into town. Nobody shoots. Everybody waves and smiles. Any day there's no shooting, you feel good.
DOBBS: The fires from Sunday's attack on the southern Iraqi pipeline have now been contained. The damage from that attack has cut the pipeline's capacity, however, by a third. And in Najaf, the U.S. military began a major offensive over the weekend trying to take control of more of the city.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We have late word tonight that insurgents have killed another American soldier in Iraq, the soldier from the 1st Infantry Division killed near Samarra when insurgents detonated a bomb. Another soldier was wounded.
Coming up next, I'll be talking to Bill Moyers about his new book, "Moyers on America." And some surprising results on the latest poll. Support for President Bush is hardly growing even though the economy is booming. Bill Schneider will be here to report on the very latest numbers. And here to talk about presidential politics, jobs, and their new book, "50 Ways to Love Your Country," the founders of MoveOn.org, Joan Blades and Wes Boyd.
We continue in just a moment. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Poll numbers today show the nation's support for President Bush is now at the lowest level of his presidency. Support for the war in Iraq is also slipping. Most Americans now say it wasn't worth going to war.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The prisoner abuse scandal is taking a toll on President Bush. Three weeks ago, just after the insurgency began, the public was evenly divided over how President Bush was handling Iraq. Now? 58 percent disapprove.
In the past, Bush has held the advantage over Democratic challenger John Kerry on Iraq. Now, the public is pretty closely split over who would do a better job in Iraq. Bush's advantage has just about disappeared.
Terrorism is still President Bush's issue. And the economy is Kerry's. What about all those good economic indicators that just came out? Aren't they giving the president a boost? No.
Last week, the president's economic ratings were 56 to 41 percent negative. This week, still 56 percent to 41 percent negative, despite Friday's good jobs report. Gasoline prices, milk prices are throwing a wet blanket over the dry economic statistics. President Bush's overall job rating is at an all-time low: 46 percent. For the first time ever, a majority of Americans say they disapprove of the way Bush is handling his job.
Oh, boy, say the Democrats. We got him! Maybe not. Forty-eight percent of likely voters say they vote for Bush right now, 47 percent for Kerry. Those are the kinds of findings that drive Democrats crazy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: So Democrats have to remind themselves, hey, this election is supposed to be a referendum on President Bush. And, right now, President Bush's numbers don't look good -- Lou.
DOBBS: A referendum on President Bush. It's I think you would agree far more than that with all the issues we are facing. Do most Americans agree with this president about his unwavering support of his defense secretary?
SCHNEIDER: Actually, yes. They do not think Donald Rumsfeld should be fired. They do not think he should resign. And those margins are pretty solid. They're by 2-1. That could be a bit of a surprise. Americans take these reports of abuse very seriously. They are horrified by the photographs.
But they also believe that these were rogue acts of criminality. They were isolated incidents. They believe they were violence of a policy. They were not a policy. Now, if evidence comes out from these investigation that there really was a policy either allowing or mandating such behavior, then that could be politically explosive.
DOBBS: And, Bill, I think the number was 48 to 47, Bush over Kerry, well within the margin of error. Where does that leave Ralph Nader?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it leaves Ralph Nader in the catbird seat, because he has the balance of power between the two of them if it's a tie, and it leaves Democrats very worried about Ralph Nader, because, if you put him in, then Bush is ahead by two points, not a big difference there. But still it looks like he's doing what he did in 2000. A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. He's taking votes away from John Kerry. And that's got to worry the Kerry people if the election remains as close as it looks right now.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Well, one group trying to do something about that is the online advocacy group MoveOn.org. It has spent millions of dollars on ads criticizing -- television ads -- criticizing the Bush administration's handling of a number of issues. The group has also raised millions of dollars for Democratic presidential and congressional campaigns. Now members of MoveOn.org have written a new book, "50 Ways to Love Your Country: How to Find Your Political Voice and Become a Catalyst for Change."
Joining me now, the founders of MoveOn.org, Joan Blades, Wes Boyd.
Good to have you with us.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: First, how is the book doing, Joan?
JOAN BLADES, CO-FOUNDER, MOVEON.ORG: The book is doing great. It's been No. 1 on Amazon. It's been on the "New York Times" best- seller -- it's still on the "New York Times" best-seller list. It's been as high as No. 5.
DOBBS: I knew it was doing well. I just wanted to hear you say how well.
There are a lot of people out there, though, principally conservatives, Republicans, who are saying, that MoveOn.org book, we don't want to see it do too well, don't you suspect?
WES BOYD, CO-FOUNDER, MOVEON.ORG: Well, I don't know. This is really about
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Oh, sure you do, Wes. Come an.
(LAUGHTER)
BOYD: It's really about getting people engaged. And I think we all want to get people engaged.
DOBBS: You want even conservatives, wild-eyed conservatives to engage wild-eyed liberals?
BLADES: You know, a lot of conservatives are finding this president to be a little more wild and nonconservative than they imagined. And getting engaged is a good idea.
DOBBS: You noticed how quickly Joan moved from the book straight to the message? That was good.
But the fact is -- can I say this about your book, which you conveniently brought here? In reading through it -- and I was very impressed. There's great practical information. And it doesn't matter whether frankly you are a Republican or a Democrat or an independent or a Green Party member or whether you are a wild-eyed conservative or a wide-eyed liberal. There's awfully good counsel in there. So I compliment you on writing that book.
Now let's talk real politics, Wes.
BOYD: OK.
BLADES: OK.
DOBBS: You are playing tough. You're picking on people. The Republican Party had to try to shut you down. What in the world are you doing?
BOYD: Well, we really just started from what -- our base.
We have more than two million people on our e-mail list. And we really try to be good listeners in terms of what people care about. People care a lot about this war. That's one thing they care about. They care a lot about lives. They care a lot about the deficit we're racking up. They care a lot about education, the environment. These are all issues that are on the top of mind. And we try to help these voices be heard by producing ads, by getting feedback to members of Congress, whatever it takes.
DOBBS: And, Joan, do you think -- we just saw those poll numbers -- are you disappointed at Kerry's performance thus far? Or are you bolstered?
BLADES: Well, I would certainly like it if Kerry's numbers were better than that. But I think that ultimately they will be. And I also think that this year, we're going to have a lot more people out voting than we had in 2000. Only 51 percent of the electorate that could vote voted in 2000. I think that number is going to be substantially higher.
DOBBS: Well, we haven't had a president elected by a majority vote in, what, 16 years? You got some work to do. So does every other activist group throughout the political spectrum.
Are you confident that we're going to see greater participation? Because even you guys are talking about fundamentally national issues. Grassroots politics in this country has evaporated. Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote a brilliant book, I know you both (UNINTELLIGIBLE), "Participatory Democracy." Where in the world did it go?
BLADES: I think it's happening. I think MoveOn is one indicator of democracy being revitalized by the grassroots. And we're only one of many organizations. We may be the biggest right now, but there are going to be, you know, NRDC has 600,000, AFL-CIO has over 1.2 million. Planned Parenthood has 400,000. You know, as you see these organizations have activist members that are engaged in the day -- it's going to just put life into the whole system. And the candidates, also, as they get grassroots support.
DOBBS: Well, one of the most active, engaged and committed people out there politically is a guy by the name of Ralph Nader. What is he doing to your cause, to your thinking and your candidate?
BOYD: Now, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the polls of the day. We pay attention to the issues that people care about, and we really try to get those voices out there and let the chips fall where they may.
DOBBS: Well, you know what happened to...
BOYD: This electoral stuff will work itself out.
DOBBS: You know -- this electoral stuff will work itself out? Now, wait a minute. Fifty ways to love your country, amongst the -- this is all about political activism, and it is going to work its way out. You do know what happened in 2000, right?
BOYD: As long as our (ph) voices are out there, as long as the truth is being told...
DOBBS: Is Nader telling the truth?
BOYD: I haven't listened that closely to Nader, to be honest. I don't think his voice is being heard very broadly.
DOBBS: Is Kerry telling the truth?
BOYD: Certainly Kerry -- certainly Kerry is telling the truth.
DOBBS: Joan hesitated there.
BLADES: I have no instance where I could say not. He does. I'm not following closely, to be honest. I'm following the issues.
DOBBS: You are following the issues.
BLADES: Yes.
DOBBS: But don't those issues -- and I understand where you are -- as we used to say -- where you're coming from, but the fact is, connecting those issues to the words and the language and the passion of the candidates, where one can find it, isn't that critically important for us all?
BOYD: It is. And the story has just begun to be told. You know, this is six months still until the election. People, most people really aren't tuned in.
DOBBS: Well, you know, if people aren't tuned in, I mean, many years -- in 2000 I could understand that. In 1996, I could understand that. But we're engaged in a global war against radical Islamist terrorists. We're engaged in wars in Iraq, in Afghanistan, facing deficits that are crushing us in trade, in our federal budget. What in the world do you mean it's too early for people to start paying attention? You guys should be getting excited here. Go get'em!
BLADES: We have two million people paying a lot of attention. And they're getting very engaged. I mean, those are 50 stories I didn't write; others wrote.
DOBBS: There's one thing I have got to ask you. What in the heck do you mean, don't watch television news in here? Now, that's the -- Wes?
BLADES: I thought that was eloquent.
DOBBS: Well, it was straightforward.
BOYD: This was a story written by a woman who is absolutely panicked after 9/11. And her father recommended to her that she turn off her television and pick up the newspaper, and try to be a little bit emotionally disconnected.
DOBBS: Leave me -- leave me her e-mail address and (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BLADES: Over 50 percent of Americans believe that al Qaeda and 9/11 are linked. Still.
DOBBS: Not if they are watching CNN.
BLADES: Well, you've got to get -- you have got to do more there, too.
DOBBS: We're doing our part. We're doing our part, I guarantee. Or trying very hard to anyway. Joan Blades, Wes Boyd, than you both for being here. Good luck with the book.
BLADES: Thank you.
DOBBS: "Fifty Ways to Love Your Country." There's a lot more to add in there. I can imagine the sequels, the follow-ons. Thanks.
When we continue, legendary journalist, author Bill Moyers will join us. He says big money is killing the soul of democracy in this country.
And the skyrocketing cost of a quality education in this country. We begin a new series this week of special reports on higher education, and challenges for working men and women in this country, a continued squeeze on the middle class.
And stocks today sell off and they sell off big. Christine Romans will have all of that good news for us from Wall Street. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight, a legendary journalist, author, who says the soul of democracy in this country is dying. Bill Moyers has covered politics and world affairs for a very long time. And he says today our very faith in self-government is, quote, "drowning in a rising tide of big money contribution from a narrow elite," end quote.
His latest book, "Moyers on America: A Journalist and His Times," a collection of his works spanning the last decade, and he joins us now. Bill, I'm delighted to have you here.
BILL MOYERS, AUTHOR, "MOYERS ON AMERICA": Same to be here.
DOBBS: And your book is, I must say, I consider myself a rather straightforward fellow, but you get right to it, in talking about the idea that democracy is dying. What do you mean by that?
MOYERS: Well, I mean that the soul of democracy is representative government. We can't all make policy. We can't all keep a watch on things. We elect representatives who go to Washington and we expect them to make their best measured judgment in our behalf. We won't agree with them all the time. We won't disagree with them all the time.
But when they go to Washington now, Lou, you know as well as I do that they more often follow the dictates of their big donors than they do of their voters. Whether it's in our middle (ph) policy, tax policy, trade policy or whatever. The people who buy access are the ones who get the last word. And that's what I mean by that. The rich have every right to buy as many homes as they want, as many cars as they want, as many gizmos as they want, but they do not have the right to buy more democracy than the rest of us.
DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more, obviously. And I think most of our viewers would agree with you as well, because they lack, as do I, the ability to buy all of those gizmos, and certainly votes in Washington, D.C. But how do we change it? That -- the idea that -- Arthur Schlessinger wrote a terrific book some eight or nine years ago, I think, on the effect of multiculturalism in this country, on the wound to pluralism in this country, participatory democracy. How do we change it? How do we turn it around?
MOYERS: The attitude that we can't change it is part of the diagnosis. We have to keep believing that individuals make a difference in this society. The voters in Maine, the voters in Massachusetts and the voters in Arizona all went to the polls and approved public funding for state elections. Now, I know the critics of that say, well, we don't want to pay for the politicians. But the voters in those states decided if anybody is going to own the politicians, we the people are.
DOBBS: What a novel idea.
MOYERS: Novel idea. So in Arizona, for example, there are schoolteachers who ran for the state assembly and won. There are plumbers, there are house -- homemakers. That public funding, very cheap, about $5 a year per person is open -- it's called clean money. And it is working.
The other thing, we need a vigilant press. The ultimate safeguard of democracy is to spread sunshine in the cause (ph). You know, I saw a play not far from here once called, by Tom Stoppard, called "Night and Day." There's a line by a news photographer in there, I thought of it the first time I saw these photographs from Iraq. "People do terrible things to each other, but it's worse in places where they're kept in the dark."
What we need is a vigilant CNN, a vigilant PBS, vigilant, independent journalists who will tell the truth about both parties. Because both parties are complicit in this undermining of democracy through money.
DOBBS: I can, again, -- this has got to trouble our viewers because I couldn't agree with you more. We've got to find something to argue about here. The fact of the matter is, when you look at the major issues facing us today, whether it's the war on Iraq, whether it is the war on terrorism, whether it is the Patriot Act, whether it's the trade deficit, the budget deficit, somebody separate for me the difference of the two parties and their views on them because I can't find the difference.
MOYERS: Not in any significant way. There are differences on the environment, differences on separation of church and state. I heard your interview with Wes Boyd and Joan Blades. The one part of our society that is really keeping democracy alive at the grassroots is the Christian right. They take seriously their desire and their gospel of influencing government. But most things the two parties when they get to Washington are business parties. They represent business. That's OK. American history is a see-saw between organized people and organized money. Economic interests have every right to be heard and to influence. But the see-saw is like this now and it won't go back down.
DOBBS: The lack of proportionality is overwhelming now. I'm as pro business, pro free enterprise as anybody in the country. But if one looks out at our economy today and does not understand that corporate America is unrivalled, that there is absolutely no counterveiling influence to it, whatsoever, organized labor -- the media is somewhat I think we could say timid on these basic issues, important issues. Corporate America and capital are ruined.
MOYERS: I think our challenge today is two-fold. To save capitalism from its own excesses and to save democracy from its own inertia. If we don't do that -- for capitalism to succeed needs a bed, a social structure, it needs a decent society for people for whom -- who have no money. There was a story the other day in New York, we've increased -- the Taxi Commission here in New York has increased its fares 26 percent. That money goes right to the owners of the medallion, not to the drivers who are hassled by the police, harassed by the passengers, taken down by the pedestrians. That's an example of it. That capitalism is a wonderful wealth creating divide. At the moment it is skewed in a way so that we have a vast distribution of income from the working and middle class upward. You have been dealing with that on outsourcing. I suppose that's our fundamental kinship because you cannot have a healthy capitalist -- you have a Latin American system if we don't protect our middle and working class.
DOBBS: Absolutely. The fact that you and I both are beneficiaries, like everyone in this country of the most remarkable economic engine and political system ever devised by man. But if we do not understand and have the ability to transcend partisanship and ideological positions and look coldly and clearly at who is benefiting and who is being injured by our economic system, then ultimately I agree, we're lost.
MOYERS: You mentioned (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The earlier book he wrote before he wrote the book on multiculturalism was called "A Vital Sinner." That was almost 50 years ago. We do not have a vital sinner now. If we don't get -- there was a writer Andre (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who said all things human given time go badly. I think there's something to that. That's the great thing about America. We have that first amendment. We can get up on the bridge of the ship and say to the captain. Turn course, there's an iceberg out there. If we don't do it, all things human go badly can involve both democracy and capitalism.
DOBBS: And the great genius of the system is that we've always been able to make those corrections. Sometimes they are imposed upon us but overall because of good people and great values in this country we usually find our way with a little help.
MOYERS: But remember, it took 250 years to get rid of slavery then it took a bloody civil war and it took another hundred years before (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was really won and the Voting Rights Act of 1964 and 1965. How long did it take for women to get the right to vote or unions to get the right to organize. This is essentially a slow and conservative society. If we wait too long, it may be too late.
DOBBS: Bill Moyers, it is terrific for you to be here and we appreciate it so much. And come back soon, would you?
MOYERS: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: I think we have a thought that might apply after that serious conversation and those serious thoughts. Ours tonight on beauty. "The most beautiful thing in this world, of course, is the world itself." Poet Wallace Stevens.
Still ahead here, making the grade. The rising cost of college. What higher tuition leads to lower enrollment and greater pressure on the working men and women and their families in this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Kerry kicked off a week-long tour that will focus on the healthcare crisis in this country. Kerry campaigned today in the battleground state of Pennsylvania saying healthcare costs have risen four times as fast as wages. Senator Kerry travels to Kentucky, Arkansas and Florida later in the week.
Tonight we begin a serious of week-long Special Reports. Making the grade, higher education in America. Over the past two decades America's college students have made great strides. More minority students are attending and more Americans are graduating. Even SAT scores are now higher, though not back to their peek levels in the late 60s but costs are out of control becoming a major issue for parents and students. Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hot topic on campus, money, as in how much money it costs to be on campus at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 40 grand a year.
VILES: That's a lot of money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of money.
VILES: Actually more than that. $43,000 for tuition, room and board at New York University.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kind of upsetting because the people I think that are hurt the most are the middle class.
VILES: Over the past 20 years overall inflation totalled 80 percent but college was off the charts. Tuition and fees alone up 287 percent at private schools to an average of $19,700 even worse at public colleges up 309 percent. To just under $4,700.
JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: You are talking about 20, 30, $40,000 a year for some of these elite schools and given the benefits that flow to students who go to these schools, the competition for them is very stiff. Let's face it, there is no plans to make another Harvard, Yale, Stanford, et cetera. So it's a fixed supply and a growing demand.
VILES: Over those 20 years colleges became more accessible. Nearly 30 percent of young Americans now earned degrees and more minorities are enrolled. 28 percent of all students, black enrollment rose modestly in 20 years while representation of Hispanic and Asian Americans more than doubled. But Rising costs threaten the ideal that college is accessible to all.
BARBARA HALL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: We're now at the point of it's become a matter of access. Where can you afford to go to school? And many people are simply not going to be able to go to college because they don't have the funds to do so.
VILES: Many more will be saddled with huge debts when they graduate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll probably have about $60,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean interest rates are pretty low right now. We'll see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Fair question then. Is a college education worth it? the American job markets pay as premium for college grads that premium has been rising.
College grads earn roughly 87 percent more than those who finished only high school -- Lou.
DOBBS: 87 percent, what accounts for the widening gaps.
VILES: It's not just good jobs, there are fewer good jobs for high school jobs. The decline of manufacturing means there aren't the good paying jobs in the numbers we had in the past in this economy.
DOBBS: Universities, you talked about supply and demand. Why aren't universities meeting head on the technological opportunity of the Worldwide Web and distributing education? One of the great promises of the Web was the nature of sharing information and education.
VILES: It's not happening that way. Universities aren't responding to a need, maybe they don't feel pressure to do it. But there's great competition to pay these prices to get into these colleges. A lot of the complaints from the parents are why aren't there more services, not why isn't it cheaper?
DOBBS: I think we know part of the reason they are not doing it.
But anyway, Pete, thanks. Peter Viles.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts, Debra Hackett of Montgomery, Alabama wrote in to say, "I am in no way condoning the mistreatment of anyone, prisoner or not, but where was the worldwide outrage when four American civilians were brutally murdered in Fallujah?"
Dale in Rochester, New York, on the same theme, "Sure, the Iraqi prisoner abuse isn't appropriate, but doesn't anyone remember the slaying and mutilation of American soldier in the car bomb not too long ago? I saw nobody did anything about it."
And Christina in Dallas, Texas, "I would be the so-called full accounting that President Bush promises to give to the Iraqi prisoner abuse yields as much information as who in his administration outed the name of Ambassador Wilson's wife!"
We love hearing from you, e-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com. A reminder now to vote into "Tonight's Poll" on the issue of Iraq, do you believe the U.S. should withdraw, stay the course or change strategy?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results in just a few moments.
Coming up, Christine Romans on the market. Another sell off on Wall Street.
And rising gasoline prices.
All of that and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: And ugly day on the market. The Dow Jones Industrials down more than 127 points. The Dow below 10,000 for the first time since the end of last year. The Nasdaq lost nearly 22. The S&P 500 down more than 11 and half.
Christine Romans is here.
Do you have any good news?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, not right at the moment. Nine stocks fell for each that rose. If you hold that one stock that rose that was good news. It was the busiest day in four months. 85 percent of big board stocks fell. It was a global stock market rout. Japan's Nikkei had its worst day since September 11th, 2001. Financial groups lead the slide. Citigroup will pay more than $2.5 billion to WorldCom investors, for its role in the WorldCom collapse. And it's setting aside another couple of billion for IPO and Enron litigation. Energy shares plunged. Crude fell below $39 a barrel after Saudi Arabia oil minister called for higher output. But don't expect any relief for American motorists any time soon. Gas prices jumped a dime in the past two weeks. Also today, Lou, MCI will cut 7,500 jobs in the second quarter. And Bank of America will cut up to 1,500 jobs at the same time -- it will add 1,500 jobs rather in India at the same time it's cutting 12,500 jobs in the United States.
DOBBS: 12,500 lost here,, 1500 added in India?
ROMANS: Yes.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much.
When we continue we'll have the results of the poll. A preview of tomorrow's broadcast. A reminder to now to check on our Web site for the complete list of the more than 600 companies we now confirmed to be exporting America. Cnn.com/lou. We'll take a look at that and continue in just a moment. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. Nine -- 51 -- 51 percent of you say the United States should withdraw from Iraq. Stay the course held only 6 percent says the votes. And change strategy 43 percent. That's the broadcast for tonight.
Tomorrow please join us, Senator Carl Levin ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services joins us on the latest on the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. And making the grade in higher education, our series of special reports. Tomorrow the growing wealth gap that is pricing the middle class out of a college education.
Thanks for being with us tonight, please join us tomorrow. For all us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 10, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, May 10. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
President Bush today strongly maintained that his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, is doing what the president called a superb job. President Bush, at the Pentagon, with Rumsfeld at his side, praised the defense secretary for his courageous leadership.
Senior White House correspondent John King reports -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, that dramatic visit to the Pentagon coming not only so the president could offer his public support for the Defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, but also so Mr. Bush could get a firsthand look at how this prisoner abuse scandal could well get worse before it gets any better.
Now, of course, Democrats have been insisting the defense secretary should take accountability and responsibility for the scandal and that he should resign. Mr. Bush has said no in the past. The vice president over the weekend said no. The president here on Donald Rumsfeld's own turf, just outside his office at the Pentagon, says he wants the defense secretary to stay right where he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you for your leadership. You are courageously leading our nation in the war against terror. You are doing a superb job. You are a strong secretary of defense. And our nation owes you a debt of gratitude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Secretary Rumsfeld also walked Mr. Bush out of the Pentagon after showing him in closed doors in the secretary's office more than a dozen we are told color classified photos yet to be released in the prisoner abuse scandal, all of them graphic, many of them we are told showing inappropriate sexual behavior by U.S. military personnel in the presence of those Iraqi prisoners.
Mr. Bush today insisting that these abuses are isolated. And in an interview with Armed Forces Radio and Television, the president also trying to boost the morale of the troops still serving in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: The world will see that the American people are disgusted by the behavior of a very few people. The troops need to hear from me that I understand that those over there in the Iraqi theater are good, decent, honorable citizens who are not only fighting the bad guys, but are making life better for the innocent people of Iraq. And there's thousands of acts of kindness that take place every day and I know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You heard the president there lay the blame on -- quote -- "a few people." That is the line of his press secretary here at the White House, though, Lou, they did acknowledge today that late last year the administration was warned by the International Committee of the Red Cross that it was compiling a report detailing what it believes to be much more systemic abuses at the prisons in Iraq.
And, again, those new pictures, the president saw some of them today. Congress is getting a flavor of some of them this afternoon. The Pentagon for now says it has no plans to release them. Here at the White House they fully expect somehow the photos will become public in the near future. They don't want them leaked, Lou. They want somehow to control that release, but no decision just yet on how to do that.
DOBBS: Whether they want to control them or not, how much trouble does the White House staff think it's in right now?
KING: It thinks that this will get worse, both in terms of the outrage here in the United States, the outrage across the Arab world, the impact on the president's political number. And we're seeing that fallout as well.
The administration says there are more digital photographs, also some digital video clips, if you will, showing graphic detail worse than what we have seen already, is how officials are describing it. And, Lou, they want to keep it under wraps for now because of the investigation. They know at some point either through a release orchestrated by this White House -- and that is the most likely scenario -- or some leak, that these photos will become public and probably officials here believe quite soon.
DOBBS: Soon. And is it the judgment there at the White House that they can control this? Or is it the judgment there at the White House that they had better move quickly to resolve as much of this scandal as possible?
KING: They believe they need to move quickly. Right now, carrying the day are the argument from Pentagon lawyers and others who say, for the sanctity of the investigation, you have to keep those photos private. But nobody expects that argument to hold very long.
DOBBS: John King, senior White House correspondent, thank you.
Well, as John just reported, defense officials showing the president a number of photographs of the prisoner abuse. Senior defense officials say there are also of small -- a small number in point of fact of video clips.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has that report -- Jamie McIntyre.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, there are about 1,000 images altogether, but we're told that many of them are innocuous, pictures of innocent horseplay and just snapshots.
But of that 1,000 pictures that are on three different discs, two to 300 by one count do document further abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. soldiers. According to Pentagon -- according one official who seen some of the digital video clips that are included say they show -- quote -- "abuse and humiliation" consistent with what is seen in the still pictures. Other Pentagon officials who have not seen the videos said that they do show two U.S. soldiers, a male and a female, having sex with each other.
And some of the worst pictures we're told show Iraqi prisoners sodomized with various objects, including chemical light sticks. Now, the first soldier to face trial does not appear in any of the photographs, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, the first to be court- martialed. Sources say he may have taken some of the photographs and may plead guilty in a plea bargain arrangement. His trial next week in Iraq will be open to news coverage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: People of Iraq will certainly have the same access that the international audience will have. It is a practice of the U.S. military that in an open hearing we allow family, we allow observers, we allow print reporters. It has not been our practice in the past to allow cameras inside. I think there is a concern that this is not a show trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: I have to say, Lou, the Pentagon has some mixed emotions about getting all these pictures out. Some of the officials I talked to are concerned it will compromise investigations that are going on. Perhaps some guilty people will get off because of that down the road. Some of them also express, though, concern that the release of the picture itself could further violate the Geneva Convention against humiliating prisoners.
But, on the other hand, some very senior people here at the Pentagon are advocating, get all the pictures out, get the videos out, take your lumps, so that these do not dribble out, that you don't have a situation where these are leaked weeks, days, months down the road -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you -- Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
CNN has obtained a Red Cross report that says up to 90 percent of the Iraqis captured by coalition troops were arrested by mistake. The Red Cross report also says that in some cases the coalition used interrogation methods that were -- quote -- "tantamount to torture." Red Cross officials examined conditions at coalition prisons in Basra, Ramadi and Tikrit between March and November of last year.
The Army general who wrote a highly critical report of the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners gives testimony on Capitol Hill tomorrow. Major General Antonio Taguba testifies before the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Congressional correspondent Joe Johns with the report -- John (sic).
JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, Taguba is the author of that scathing report that has been read and reread around the world.
We are told here at CNN that the annexes to that report, hundreds and hundreds of pages of documentation indicating the abuses at the prison in Iraq, have now been sent here to the Senate for senators to read. Senators will be interested in asking Taguba about the annexes. Also a key question, were members of the U.S. military involved in these pictures actually operating on orders or were they acting alone? One key question at least for General Antonio Taguba.
Meanwhile, top senators on the Senate Armed Services Committee have continued to try to pound out an agreement whereby those pictures and video, if possible, may be seen by certain members of the Senate. The question is how many senators might get the opportunity to view the pictures and the video, whether it should just be the leaders, whether it should be just members of the Armed Services Committee, or the Senate at large. There's also a question as to whether to recommended to the administration that all of the pictures be released, of course, a very key question here.
A number of senators we at CNN have talked to have said they would like to see all of the pictures released because they are concerned even if they say no those pictures will get out into the public anyway -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, Joe, the pressure for Donald Rumsfeld to resign, has it abated, or what?
JOHNS: Well, there are a lot of senators, particularly Republicans, who say it is simply premature, it's too early to talk about the resignation of Secretary Rumsfeld. There are, of course, many Democrats who have called for his resignation and have called for the president in fact to fire him.
However, a number of people have said at least part of this hinges on the damage that may occur if more photos are released. There's particularly a question as to whether the trickling out of information, photos and videos over a long period of time, could do increasing political damage to the United States and its interests abroad.
All of these lead a number of senators, particularly in the Republican Party, to say they are not sure this is the time to even talk about the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld, Lou.
DOBBS: Unfortunately, for their perspective, it's not entirely up to them.
Joe Johns from congressional hill, thank you, sir.
More on the prisoner abuse scandal next. The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Pat Roberts, joins me. We'll talk about the impact on this scandal on U.S. policy in Iraq, the Middle East and the future of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
American troops in Iraq destroy the Baghdad headquarters of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. We'll have that report for you.
And President Bush's approval rating has fallen to the lowest level of his presidency. CNN political analyst Bill Schneider will be here to assess all of the numbers behind that polling.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says it's too early to decide whether Secretary Rumsfeld should stay in the job or go. Senator Pat Roberts is chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. He's also a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, both committees holding hearings on the prisoner abuse scandal.
Senator Roberts joins me tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you here.
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: It's always a pleasure, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: This, the appearance with Donald Rumsfeld by the president at the Pentagon, that kind of staging, is it effective for whatever the interests are of this administration?
ROBERTS: Well, obviously, the president thinks so. And I think he's standing by his secretary of defense. I can sort of anticipate your next question. What do I think?
I think it would be very premature right now for Rumsfeld to step down. I know the question is, can he be effective? But there's a couple other questions I want to know. If he did step down, what would that do to the morale of our troops in regards to our troops in Iraq? And then, secondly, what would it do in the minds of the terrorists? And so I think that has to weigh in. And then you -- obviously, we're in the middle of transformation. He's the architect of it.
So until we find out all of the facts in regards to this prison scandal, I think it would be premature for him to step down.
DOBBS: Well, Senator, are you among those that think that there are levels of effort available to the terrorists, that if emboldened by this scandal, in emboldened by the resignation of Donald Rumsfeld, that they could raise the level of their terror in some way?
ROBERTS: I think it would be a morale victory for them. I think it would be something that would give them a lot of confidence and not only in Iraq, but worldwide, that they under the circumstances had simply brought the secretary of defense to his knees. Of course, that hasn't got anything to do with actually what happened.
And in addition, I'm not aware the secretary has any direct involvement at all in regard to the prison scandal. Let's wait until we get the facts out.
DOBBS: I was just simply inquiring as to the line of reasoning there, Senator. And obfuscated in some ways, but certainly we are distracted in others from the events that are going on in Iraq, in point of fact, Najaf now Sadr city under the control, Kufa, much of it under the control of Muqtada al-Sadr. This is not going well. And...
ROBERTS: No, it's not going well.
DOBBS: And this is, it seems to me, something we have -- something we expect to be sharply in focus in Washington. What are you thinking? What is the Republican leadership in the Senate thinking? And what is this administration thinking about the course that is being followed right now?
ROBERTS: Well, the course right now is an effort to try to convince some of the more moderate clerics that that's not an oxymoron and more especially Sistani to take a more positive stance to isolate Sadr.
You don't want Sadr in power. And so whatever we can do to isolate that, to make advances, to improve the security in that particular part of Iraq, well, that's what we have to do. Unfortunately, you now have a firestorm in regards to what is going on at the prison scandal. And that seems to dominate everything here in Washington right now, as opposed to what we ought to be thinking about.
DOBBS: Well, in addition, relating to the prison scandal, all that is happening right now with the insurgents in Iraq, both Sunni and Shia, the level of intelligence that was being gathered by U.S. military intelligence, CIA, from those prisons, the fact that 90 percent of the people arrested and put in those prisons were mistaken arrests by the coalition. What is your reaction to that?
ROBERTS: I'm not sure I understood the question, Lou. You sort of -- I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: There are a couple of questions. Let me be clear.
ROBERTS: OK.
DOBBS: And, if you will, I apologize to you and to our viewers if I wasn't clear.
(CROSSTALK)
ROBERTS: You were -- I couldn't hear it.
DOBBS: The Red Cross basically found that 90 percent of those arrested by the coalition in the prisons after surveying three principal prisons were mistakes. Secondly, the intelligence, we have heard very little about the quality of the intelligence that has been gathered from interrogation in those prisons. What's your reaction?
ROBERTS: Well, I'm glad you raised that issue because the interrogation is absolutely essential to the best intelligence you can get to stop the bombing of the U.N., to stop the bombing of the mosques, to stop the bombing of embassies.
Now, as to the quality of the intelligence, obviously, if the security continues to be a problem, part of that is intelligence. And part of that is the efforts of the terrorists. Everybody seems to be ignoring the terrorists here in terms of the effectiveness of how they fight. Now, we are trying to do the intelligence in a right way which led eventually to the discovery and the capture of, say, Saddam Hussein.
But the thing that worries me so much is and that has stunned me so much is that, in the intelligence community, they know what the criteria is. It's like black and white. And this conduct, no leadership, no discipline, and no training, now, that's the thing that we have to fix. Once it is exposed, once the facts are there and we do have all the annexes to the report by the general involved, we're going to have to have a lot of study and we're going to have to do a lot of fixing before we get to the end of this.
DOBBS: Senator Pat Roberts, thank you for being here.
ROBERTS: Yes, sir. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll on the issue of Iraq. Do you believe the United States should withdrawal, stay the course, or change strategy? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
In Iraq today, the coalition reported U.S. troops killed 35 gunmen loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr in a series of battles in Baghdad over just the past two days. The coalition has stepped up its attacks against al-Sadr's gunmen in a number of cities in central and southern Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): In Sadr City, U.S. forces destroyed the headquarters of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
KIMMITT: Coalition forces observed numerous counts of RPG fire from the alleyways directed to their elements as they approached the Sadr bureau and encountered numerous other engagements during the early morning. Coalition forces then initiated the destruction of the building.
DOBBS: U.S. forces killed 19 insurgents in Sadr City; 16 more were killed in another section of Baghdad. Four people were wounded when insurgents detonated an improvised explosive device at the Four Seasons hotel. Elsewhere in Baghdad, one American was killed when his Humvee collided with a U.S. tank.
Another U.S. soldier was killed in the northern city of Mosul when insurgents opened fire on patrol. In Kirkuk, including a South African and New Zealander, were killed in a drive-by shooting in the center of town. And in Kufa, two insurgents were killed in battles with American soldiers. In Fallujah, U.S. forces reentered the city with the Iraq Civil Defense Corps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a good day for peace in Fallujah, a peaceful day. You see it. Drove all the way into town. Nobody shoots. Everybody waves and smiles. Any day there's no shooting, you feel good.
DOBBS: The fires from Sunday's attack on the southern Iraqi pipeline have now been contained. The damage from that attack has cut the pipeline's capacity, however, by a third. And in Najaf, the U.S. military began a major offensive over the weekend trying to take control of more of the city.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We have late word tonight that insurgents have killed another American soldier in Iraq, the soldier from the 1st Infantry Division killed near Samarra when insurgents detonated a bomb. Another soldier was wounded.
Coming up next, I'll be talking to Bill Moyers about his new book, "Moyers on America." And some surprising results on the latest poll. Support for President Bush is hardly growing even though the economy is booming. Bill Schneider will be here to report on the very latest numbers. And here to talk about presidential politics, jobs, and their new book, "50 Ways to Love Your Country," the founders of MoveOn.org, Joan Blades and Wes Boyd.
We continue in just a moment. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Poll numbers today show the nation's support for President Bush is now at the lowest level of his presidency. Support for the war in Iraq is also slipping. Most Americans now say it wasn't worth going to war.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The prisoner abuse scandal is taking a toll on President Bush. Three weeks ago, just after the insurgency began, the public was evenly divided over how President Bush was handling Iraq. Now? 58 percent disapprove.
In the past, Bush has held the advantage over Democratic challenger John Kerry on Iraq. Now, the public is pretty closely split over who would do a better job in Iraq. Bush's advantage has just about disappeared.
Terrorism is still President Bush's issue. And the economy is Kerry's. What about all those good economic indicators that just came out? Aren't they giving the president a boost? No.
Last week, the president's economic ratings were 56 to 41 percent negative. This week, still 56 percent to 41 percent negative, despite Friday's good jobs report. Gasoline prices, milk prices are throwing a wet blanket over the dry economic statistics. President Bush's overall job rating is at an all-time low: 46 percent. For the first time ever, a majority of Americans say they disapprove of the way Bush is handling his job.
Oh, boy, say the Democrats. We got him! Maybe not. Forty-eight percent of likely voters say they vote for Bush right now, 47 percent for Kerry. Those are the kinds of findings that drive Democrats crazy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: So Democrats have to remind themselves, hey, this election is supposed to be a referendum on President Bush. And, right now, President Bush's numbers don't look good -- Lou.
DOBBS: A referendum on President Bush. It's I think you would agree far more than that with all the issues we are facing. Do most Americans agree with this president about his unwavering support of his defense secretary?
SCHNEIDER: Actually, yes. They do not think Donald Rumsfeld should be fired. They do not think he should resign. And those margins are pretty solid. They're by 2-1. That could be a bit of a surprise. Americans take these reports of abuse very seriously. They are horrified by the photographs.
But they also believe that these were rogue acts of criminality. They were isolated incidents. They believe they were violence of a policy. They were not a policy. Now, if evidence comes out from these investigation that there really was a policy either allowing or mandating such behavior, then that could be politically explosive.
DOBBS: And, Bill, I think the number was 48 to 47, Bush over Kerry, well within the margin of error. Where does that leave Ralph Nader?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it leaves Ralph Nader in the catbird seat, because he has the balance of power between the two of them if it's a tie, and it leaves Democrats very worried about Ralph Nader, because, if you put him in, then Bush is ahead by two points, not a big difference there. But still it looks like he's doing what he did in 2000. A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush. He's taking votes away from John Kerry. And that's got to worry the Kerry people if the election remains as close as it looks right now.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Well, one group trying to do something about that is the online advocacy group MoveOn.org. It has spent millions of dollars on ads criticizing -- television ads -- criticizing the Bush administration's handling of a number of issues. The group has also raised millions of dollars for Democratic presidential and congressional campaigns. Now members of MoveOn.org have written a new book, "50 Ways to Love Your Country: How to Find Your Political Voice and Become a Catalyst for Change."
Joining me now, the founders of MoveOn.org, Joan Blades, Wes Boyd.
Good to have you with us.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: First, how is the book doing, Joan?
JOAN BLADES, CO-FOUNDER, MOVEON.ORG: The book is doing great. It's been No. 1 on Amazon. It's been on the "New York Times" best- seller -- it's still on the "New York Times" best-seller list. It's been as high as No. 5.
DOBBS: I knew it was doing well. I just wanted to hear you say how well.
There are a lot of people out there, though, principally conservatives, Republicans, who are saying, that MoveOn.org book, we don't want to see it do too well, don't you suspect?
WES BOYD, CO-FOUNDER, MOVEON.ORG: Well, I don't know. This is really about
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Oh, sure you do, Wes. Come an.
(LAUGHTER)
BOYD: It's really about getting people engaged. And I think we all want to get people engaged.
DOBBS: You want even conservatives, wild-eyed conservatives to engage wild-eyed liberals?
BLADES: You know, a lot of conservatives are finding this president to be a little more wild and nonconservative than they imagined. And getting engaged is a good idea.
DOBBS: You noticed how quickly Joan moved from the book straight to the message? That was good.
But the fact is -- can I say this about your book, which you conveniently brought here? In reading through it -- and I was very impressed. There's great practical information. And it doesn't matter whether frankly you are a Republican or a Democrat or an independent or a Green Party member or whether you are a wild-eyed conservative or a wide-eyed liberal. There's awfully good counsel in there. So I compliment you on writing that book.
Now let's talk real politics, Wes.
BOYD: OK.
BLADES: OK.
DOBBS: You are playing tough. You're picking on people. The Republican Party had to try to shut you down. What in the world are you doing?
BOYD: Well, we really just started from what -- our base.
We have more than two million people on our e-mail list. And we really try to be good listeners in terms of what people care about. People care a lot about this war. That's one thing they care about. They care a lot about lives. They care a lot about the deficit we're racking up. They care a lot about education, the environment. These are all issues that are on the top of mind. And we try to help these voices be heard by producing ads, by getting feedback to members of Congress, whatever it takes.
DOBBS: And, Joan, do you think -- we just saw those poll numbers -- are you disappointed at Kerry's performance thus far? Or are you bolstered?
BLADES: Well, I would certainly like it if Kerry's numbers were better than that. But I think that ultimately they will be. And I also think that this year, we're going to have a lot more people out voting than we had in 2000. Only 51 percent of the electorate that could vote voted in 2000. I think that number is going to be substantially higher.
DOBBS: Well, we haven't had a president elected by a majority vote in, what, 16 years? You got some work to do. So does every other activist group throughout the political spectrum.
Are you confident that we're going to see greater participation? Because even you guys are talking about fundamentally national issues. Grassroots politics in this country has evaporated. Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote a brilliant book, I know you both (UNINTELLIGIBLE), "Participatory Democracy." Where in the world did it go?
BLADES: I think it's happening. I think MoveOn is one indicator of democracy being revitalized by the grassroots. And we're only one of many organizations. We may be the biggest right now, but there are going to be, you know, NRDC has 600,000, AFL-CIO has over 1.2 million. Planned Parenthood has 400,000. You know, as you see these organizations have activist members that are engaged in the day -- it's going to just put life into the whole system. And the candidates, also, as they get grassroots support.
DOBBS: Well, one of the most active, engaged and committed people out there politically is a guy by the name of Ralph Nader. What is he doing to your cause, to your thinking and your candidate?
BOYD: Now, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the polls of the day. We pay attention to the issues that people care about, and we really try to get those voices out there and let the chips fall where they may.
DOBBS: Well, you know what happened to...
BOYD: This electoral stuff will work itself out.
DOBBS: You know -- this electoral stuff will work itself out? Now, wait a minute. Fifty ways to love your country, amongst the -- this is all about political activism, and it is going to work its way out. You do know what happened in 2000, right?
BOYD: As long as our (ph) voices are out there, as long as the truth is being told...
DOBBS: Is Nader telling the truth?
BOYD: I haven't listened that closely to Nader, to be honest. I don't think his voice is being heard very broadly.
DOBBS: Is Kerry telling the truth?
BOYD: Certainly Kerry -- certainly Kerry is telling the truth.
DOBBS: Joan hesitated there.
BLADES: I have no instance where I could say not. He does. I'm not following closely, to be honest. I'm following the issues.
DOBBS: You are following the issues.
BLADES: Yes.
DOBBS: But don't those issues -- and I understand where you are -- as we used to say -- where you're coming from, but the fact is, connecting those issues to the words and the language and the passion of the candidates, where one can find it, isn't that critically important for us all?
BOYD: It is. And the story has just begun to be told. You know, this is six months still until the election. People, most people really aren't tuned in.
DOBBS: Well, you know, if people aren't tuned in, I mean, many years -- in 2000 I could understand that. In 1996, I could understand that. But we're engaged in a global war against radical Islamist terrorists. We're engaged in wars in Iraq, in Afghanistan, facing deficits that are crushing us in trade, in our federal budget. What in the world do you mean it's too early for people to start paying attention? You guys should be getting excited here. Go get'em!
BLADES: We have two million people paying a lot of attention. And they're getting very engaged. I mean, those are 50 stories I didn't write; others wrote.
DOBBS: There's one thing I have got to ask you. What in the heck do you mean, don't watch television news in here? Now, that's the -- Wes?
BLADES: I thought that was eloquent.
DOBBS: Well, it was straightforward.
BOYD: This was a story written by a woman who is absolutely panicked after 9/11. And her father recommended to her that she turn off her television and pick up the newspaper, and try to be a little bit emotionally disconnected.
DOBBS: Leave me -- leave me her e-mail address and (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BLADES: Over 50 percent of Americans believe that al Qaeda and 9/11 are linked. Still.
DOBBS: Not if they are watching CNN.
BLADES: Well, you've got to get -- you have got to do more there, too.
DOBBS: We're doing our part. We're doing our part, I guarantee. Or trying very hard to anyway. Joan Blades, Wes Boyd, than you both for being here. Good luck with the book.
BLADES: Thank you.
DOBBS: "Fifty Ways to Love Your Country." There's a lot more to add in there. I can imagine the sequels, the follow-ons. Thanks.
When we continue, legendary journalist, author Bill Moyers will join us. He says big money is killing the soul of democracy in this country.
And the skyrocketing cost of a quality education in this country. We begin a new series this week of special reports on higher education, and challenges for working men and women in this country, a continued squeeze on the middle class.
And stocks today sell off and they sell off big. Christine Romans will have all of that good news for us from Wall Street. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight, a legendary journalist, author, who says the soul of democracy in this country is dying. Bill Moyers has covered politics and world affairs for a very long time. And he says today our very faith in self-government is, quote, "drowning in a rising tide of big money contribution from a narrow elite," end quote.
His latest book, "Moyers on America: A Journalist and His Times," a collection of his works spanning the last decade, and he joins us now. Bill, I'm delighted to have you here.
BILL MOYERS, AUTHOR, "MOYERS ON AMERICA": Same to be here.
DOBBS: And your book is, I must say, I consider myself a rather straightforward fellow, but you get right to it, in talking about the idea that democracy is dying. What do you mean by that?
MOYERS: Well, I mean that the soul of democracy is representative government. We can't all make policy. We can't all keep a watch on things. We elect representatives who go to Washington and we expect them to make their best measured judgment in our behalf. We won't agree with them all the time. We won't disagree with them all the time.
But when they go to Washington now, Lou, you know as well as I do that they more often follow the dictates of their big donors than they do of their voters. Whether it's in our middle (ph) policy, tax policy, trade policy or whatever. The people who buy access are the ones who get the last word. And that's what I mean by that. The rich have every right to buy as many homes as they want, as many cars as they want, as many gizmos as they want, but they do not have the right to buy more democracy than the rest of us.
DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more, obviously. And I think most of our viewers would agree with you as well, because they lack, as do I, the ability to buy all of those gizmos, and certainly votes in Washington, D.C. But how do we change it? That -- the idea that -- Arthur Schlessinger wrote a terrific book some eight or nine years ago, I think, on the effect of multiculturalism in this country, on the wound to pluralism in this country, participatory democracy. How do we change it? How do we turn it around?
MOYERS: The attitude that we can't change it is part of the diagnosis. We have to keep believing that individuals make a difference in this society. The voters in Maine, the voters in Massachusetts and the voters in Arizona all went to the polls and approved public funding for state elections. Now, I know the critics of that say, well, we don't want to pay for the politicians. But the voters in those states decided if anybody is going to own the politicians, we the people are.
DOBBS: What a novel idea.
MOYERS: Novel idea. So in Arizona, for example, there are schoolteachers who ran for the state assembly and won. There are plumbers, there are house -- homemakers. That public funding, very cheap, about $5 a year per person is open -- it's called clean money. And it is working.
The other thing, we need a vigilant press. The ultimate safeguard of democracy is to spread sunshine in the cause (ph). You know, I saw a play not far from here once called, by Tom Stoppard, called "Night and Day." There's a line by a news photographer in there, I thought of it the first time I saw these photographs from Iraq. "People do terrible things to each other, but it's worse in places where they're kept in the dark."
What we need is a vigilant CNN, a vigilant PBS, vigilant, independent journalists who will tell the truth about both parties. Because both parties are complicit in this undermining of democracy through money.
DOBBS: I can, again, -- this has got to trouble our viewers because I couldn't agree with you more. We've got to find something to argue about here. The fact of the matter is, when you look at the major issues facing us today, whether it's the war on Iraq, whether it is the war on terrorism, whether it is the Patriot Act, whether it's the trade deficit, the budget deficit, somebody separate for me the difference of the two parties and their views on them because I can't find the difference.
MOYERS: Not in any significant way. There are differences on the environment, differences on separation of church and state. I heard your interview with Wes Boyd and Joan Blades. The one part of our society that is really keeping democracy alive at the grassroots is the Christian right. They take seriously their desire and their gospel of influencing government. But most things the two parties when they get to Washington are business parties. They represent business. That's OK. American history is a see-saw between organized people and organized money. Economic interests have every right to be heard and to influence. But the see-saw is like this now and it won't go back down.
DOBBS: The lack of proportionality is overwhelming now. I'm as pro business, pro free enterprise as anybody in the country. But if one looks out at our economy today and does not understand that corporate America is unrivalled, that there is absolutely no counterveiling influence to it, whatsoever, organized labor -- the media is somewhat I think we could say timid on these basic issues, important issues. Corporate America and capital are ruined.
MOYERS: I think our challenge today is two-fold. To save capitalism from its own excesses and to save democracy from its own inertia. If we don't do that -- for capitalism to succeed needs a bed, a social structure, it needs a decent society for people for whom -- who have no money. There was a story the other day in New York, we've increased -- the Taxi Commission here in New York has increased its fares 26 percent. That money goes right to the owners of the medallion, not to the drivers who are hassled by the police, harassed by the passengers, taken down by the pedestrians. That's an example of it. That capitalism is a wonderful wealth creating divide. At the moment it is skewed in a way so that we have a vast distribution of income from the working and middle class upward. You have been dealing with that on outsourcing. I suppose that's our fundamental kinship because you cannot have a healthy capitalist -- you have a Latin American system if we don't protect our middle and working class.
DOBBS: Absolutely. The fact that you and I both are beneficiaries, like everyone in this country of the most remarkable economic engine and political system ever devised by man. But if we do not understand and have the ability to transcend partisanship and ideological positions and look coldly and clearly at who is benefiting and who is being injured by our economic system, then ultimately I agree, we're lost.
MOYERS: You mentioned (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The earlier book he wrote before he wrote the book on multiculturalism was called "A Vital Sinner." That was almost 50 years ago. We do not have a vital sinner now. If we don't get -- there was a writer Andre (UNINTELLIGIBLE) who said all things human given time go badly. I think there's something to that. That's the great thing about America. We have that first amendment. We can get up on the bridge of the ship and say to the captain. Turn course, there's an iceberg out there. If we don't do it, all things human go badly can involve both democracy and capitalism.
DOBBS: And the great genius of the system is that we've always been able to make those corrections. Sometimes they are imposed upon us but overall because of good people and great values in this country we usually find our way with a little help.
MOYERS: But remember, it took 250 years to get rid of slavery then it took a bloody civil war and it took another hundred years before (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was really won and the Voting Rights Act of 1964 and 1965. How long did it take for women to get the right to vote or unions to get the right to organize. This is essentially a slow and conservative society. If we wait too long, it may be too late.
DOBBS: Bill Moyers, it is terrific for you to be here and we appreciate it so much. And come back soon, would you?
MOYERS: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: I think we have a thought that might apply after that serious conversation and those serious thoughts. Ours tonight on beauty. "The most beautiful thing in this world, of course, is the world itself." Poet Wallace Stevens.
Still ahead here, making the grade. The rising cost of college. What higher tuition leads to lower enrollment and greater pressure on the working men and women and their families in this country. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Kerry kicked off a week-long tour that will focus on the healthcare crisis in this country. Kerry campaigned today in the battleground state of Pennsylvania saying healthcare costs have risen four times as fast as wages. Senator Kerry travels to Kentucky, Arkansas and Florida later in the week.
Tonight we begin a serious of week-long Special Reports. Making the grade, higher education in America. Over the past two decades America's college students have made great strides. More minority students are attending and more Americans are graduating. Even SAT scores are now higher, though not back to their peek levels in the late 60s but costs are out of control becoming a major issue for parents and students. Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hot topic on campus, money, as in how much money it costs to be on campus at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 40 grand a year.
VILES: That's a lot of money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of money.
VILES: Actually more than that. $43,000 for tuition, room and board at New York University.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kind of upsetting because the people I think that are hurt the most are the middle class.
VILES: Over the past 20 years overall inflation totalled 80 percent but college was off the charts. Tuition and fees alone up 287 percent at private schools to an average of $19,700 even worse at public colleges up 309 percent. To just under $4,700.
JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: You are talking about 20, 30, $40,000 a year for some of these elite schools and given the benefits that flow to students who go to these schools, the competition for them is very stiff. Let's face it, there is no plans to make another Harvard, Yale, Stanford, et cetera. So it's a fixed supply and a growing demand.
VILES: Over those 20 years colleges became more accessible. Nearly 30 percent of young Americans now earned degrees and more minorities are enrolled. 28 percent of all students, black enrollment rose modestly in 20 years while representation of Hispanic and Asian Americans more than doubled. But Rising costs threaten the ideal that college is accessible to all.
BARBARA HALL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: We're now at the point of it's become a matter of access. Where can you afford to go to school? And many people are simply not going to be able to go to college because they don't have the funds to do so.
VILES: Many more will be saddled with huge debts when they graduate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll probably have about $60,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean interest rates are pretty low right now. We'll see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Fair question then. Is a college education worth it? the American job markets pay as premium for college grads that premium has been rising.
College grads earn roughly 87 percent more than those who finished only high school -- Lou.
DOBBS: 87 percent, what accounts for the widening gaps.
VILES: It's not just good jobs, there are fewer good jobs for high school jobs. The decline of manufacturing means there aren't the good paying jobs in the numbers we had in the past in this economy.
DOBBS: Universities, you talked about supply and demand. Why aren't universities meeting head on the technological opportunity of the Worldwide Web and distributing education? One of the great promises of the Web was the nature of sharing information and education.
VILES: It's not happening that way. Universities aren't responding to a need, maybe they don't feel pressure to do it. But there's great competition to pay these prices to get into these colleges. A lot of the complaints from the parents are why aren't there more services, not why isn't it cheaper?
DOBBS: I think we know part of the reason they are not doing it.
But anyway, Pete, thanks. Peter Viles.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts, Debra Hackett of Montgomery, Alabama wrote in to say, "I am in no way condoning the mistreatment of anyone, prisoner or not, but where was the worldwide outrage when four American civilians were brutally murdered in Fallujah?"
Dale in Rochester, New York, on the same theme, "Sure, the Iraqi prisoner abuse isn't appropriate, but doesn't anyone remember the slaying and mutilation of American soldier in the car bomb not too long ago? I saw nobody did anything about it."
And Christina in Dallas, Texas, "I would be the so-called full accounting that President Bush promises to give to the Iraqi prisoner abuse yields as much information as who in his administration outed the name of Ambassador Wilson's wife!"
We love hearing from you, e-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com. A reminder now to vote into "Tonight's Poll" on the issue of Iraq, do you believe the U.S. should withdraw, stay the course or change strategy?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results in just a few moments.
Coming up, Christine Romans on the market. Another sell off on Wall Street.
And rising gasoline prices.
All of that and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: And ugly day on the market. The Dow Jones Industrials down more than 127 points. The Dow below 10,000 for the first time since the end of last year. The Nasdaq lost nearly 22. The S&P 500 down more than 11 and half.
Christine Romans is here.
Do you have any good news?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, not right at the moment. Nine stocks fell for each that rose. If you hold that one stock that rose that was good news. It was the busiest day in four months. 85 percent of big board stocks fell. It was a global stock market rout. Japan's Nikkei had its worst day since September 11th, 2001. Financial groups lead the slide. Citigroup will pay more than $2.5 billion to WorldCom investors, for its role in the WorldCom collapse. And it's setting aside another couple of billion for IPO and Enron litigation. Energy shares plunged. Crude fell below $39 a barrel after Saudi Arabia oil minister called for higher output. But don't expect any relief for American motorists any time soon. Gas prices jumped a dime in the past two weeks. Also today, Lou, MCI will cut 7,500 jobs in the second quarter. And Bank of America will cut up to 1,500 jobs at the same time -- it will add 1,500 jobs rather in India at the same time it's cutting 12,500 jobs in the United States.
DOBBS: 12,500 lost here,, 1500 added in India?
ROMANS: Yes.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much.
When we continue we'll have the results of the poll. A preview of tomorrow's broadcast. A reminder to now to check on our Web site for the complete list of the more than 600 companies we now confirmed to be exporting America. Cnn.com/lou. We'll take a look at that and continue in just a moment. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. Nine -- 51 -- 51 percent of you say the United States should withdraw from Iraq. Stay the course held only 6 percent says the votes. And change strategy 43 percent. That's the broadcast for tonight.
Tomorrow please join us, Senator Carl Levin ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services joins us on the latest on the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. And making the grade in higher education, our series of special reports. Tomorrow the growing wealth gap that is pricing the middle class out of a college education.
Thanks for being with us tonight, please join us tomorrow. For all us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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