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American Morning
Interview With Senator Joe Biden; '90-Second Pop'
Aired May 10, 2004 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 7:31 here in New York.
Just as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said what happened Friday in testimony to Congress, there are new photos showing apparent mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers. The photograph accompanies a new article by journalist Seymour Hersh in "The New Yorker magazine. It appears to show U.S. guards setting dogs on a naked prisoner. Hersh points out that soldiers in the photo are from a different unit than those in photographs published first last week. Hersh telling CNN that the problems at the Abu Ghraib stem at least in part from military leaders who are indifferent to the possibility that their Iraq plans could be wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: These are people who can't cope with information they don't want to hear. They haven't been able to listen to the generals in the Pentagon, who have been saying for six or eight months that we're really in trouble. They won't listen to them. And it's not because it's a cover-up. It's because they don't listen to what they don't want to hear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Seymour Hersh from "WOLF BLITZER" yesterday.
Also, in his current article, Hersh reports that the top U.S. general in Iraq, Ricardo Sanchez, put U.S. prisons there under the command of military intelligence back in November. According to Hersh, that led to a change in Army procedures that had kept military police from participating in those interrogations.
Secretary Rumsfeld, meanwhile, is taking another hit for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. An editorial today in four newspapers -- the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Times -- blasting Secretary Rumsfeld and the joint chiefs chairman, General Richard Myers. The papers are civilian-owned. They are a powerful voice in the military.
Delaware Senator Joe Biden is the ranking Democrat of the Foreign Relations Committee. He is live in Wilmington, Delaware.
Good morning, Senator, and thanks for coming back and talking with us.
Yesterday, you said this administration has lost its moral clarity. How do you get that back?
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Well, it seems to me you do it by being decisive now. We have to restore the faith of the people in Iraq in our mission that we are there to actually restore the faith of the people in Iraq in our mission that we're there to actually restore human rights for them and faith in troops that we, in fact, have leadership. And the president seems to be pretty tone-deaf on this. This is a man who usually speaks with moral clarity.
And I think we should be doing everything from bringing in the International Red Cross and opening up the prisons, putting monitors in them right now. We should be announcing that we are prepared to literally bulldoze down that prison, which is a symbol of Saddam's torture, as well as ours. We should be making it clear that people going to be held accountable and that -- you know, I mean, imagine what Ronald Reagan would be doing or saying now. Imagine what Franklin Roosevelt would be doing or saying now.
There seems to be no clarity here, and it seems to be all about Rumsfeld -- whether he should or shouldn't keep his job. We seem concerned about political damage control than we do about damage control of the mission. And you know, that Army, Navy, Marine Times article is a devastating symbolic blow, and it represents what a lot of people have known and what Seymour Hersh has said.
This has been a series of incredibly bad judgments on the part of the civilian leadership from telling the military they'd be greeted from open arms, there would be enough oil to pay for all of this, that there would be an Iraqi army to would stand up. The list goes on. They have not been right about the civilian leadership, has not been right about anything, particularly the amount of force that's needed to provide for security in Iraq. And it's a loss of faith.
HEMMER: Senator, yes, if I could here for a second here, Secretary Rumsfeld has plenty of supporters in Washington thus far. The vice president, Dick Cheney, said over the weekend -- I'm quoting now -- "The best secretary of defense the United States has ever had. People ought to let him do his job." That's from the vice president. Republicans...
BIDEN: I'd like to see him do his job. I'd like to see him do his job.
HEMMER: If I could for a second here, Senator John Warner also expressing his doubt that now you do not want to change course. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: We are in two wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. To pull out the top man at this time and try and go through the complicated procedures of clearances, finding a new individual, bringing him in, bringing in that new individual's staff in the few months before the election, someone better weigh that carefully against these calls for his resignation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: So, the suggestion there is that it would cause more problems than it would solve.
In addition to that, we now know on the 19th of May, a picture of Specialist Sivits, he will be court-martialed in Baghdad. We're told it will be open to Arab press, television cameras possibly as well. Is this a good step forward now on the Monday after the testimony of last Friday?
BIDEN: Well, it seems to me it will be viewed as, you know, swatting at a gnat here. Look, all you've got to do, Bill, is get the military, the uniformed guys, on your program. This is not a secretary of defense that most of them have and no amount of confidence in. I'd rather there be confidence in the field among our military about the direction of our policy than I would about worrying about whether we can get clearances quickly enough.
You know, this is -- I almost feel badly talking about Rumsfeld, because this is so much bigger than Rumsfeld. On June 30, Bill, we're going to hand over power to a new government who is going to have to rely upon 150,000 American troops. Who in that new government is going to be willing to be seen as cooperating with those troops, being cooperating, seen as cooperating with the United States of America, if, in fact, there is not something significantly done to demonstrate we understand the gravity of this?
I don't care if Rumsfeld goes or stays. I think he's irrelevant, quite frankly. He's been wrong so many times, as the vice president has been. Secretary of State Rumsfeld, the uniformed military -- I mean, excuse me -- Secretary of State Powell and the uniformed military, they have been right, right from the beginning. Every general that's been right they've gotten rid of, starting with Shinseki (ph) who said we would need over 200,000 troops. Their policy is not very sound, and they seem to be unwilling to alter any aspect of their policy. The policy is the problem.
HEMMER: Senator, thank you. Joe Biden from Wilmington, Delaware.
I should point out again, today the president goes to the Pentagon. He will be briefed on Iraq, a meeting that was set up long before the events of last week. We'll follow it closely.
Joe Biden there in Wilmington, thanks.
BIDEN: Thanks a lot, Bill.
HEMMER: Sure.
Later today, Texas Senator John Cornyn, a member of the Armed Services Committee, we'll talk to him in our 9:00 a.m. hour here on AMERICAN MORNING about the prisoner abuse scandal -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right, turning back to Iraq now, coalition forces are stepping up operations against radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Soldiers destroyed al-Sadr's headquarters in Baghdad overnight. Some 19 insurgents were killed in a series of clashes with U.S. soldiers. And along with a newly-organized Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, a small contingent of coalition forces entered Fallujah. Military officials say the Corps may have better luck persuading insurgents there to disarm.
Thousands of mourners attended the funeral today of Russian- backed provincial President Akhmad Kadyrov. Kadryov was assassinated over the weekend when a bomb exploded in a packed stadium. Look at these pictures. At least five others were killed in the blast. More than 50 people were injured. Russian media claims Chechen separatists are being blamed for those attacks.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has canceled a visit to the U.S. that was set for next week. His office says the trip is delayed while the prime minister re-works a Gaza withdrawal plan. His original plan was rejected by his Likud Party last week.
Former hostage Tommy Hamill was greeted with hugs at his home church in Macon, Mississippi. Hamill, the contractor who escaped his Iraqi captors just over a week ago, told reporters he knew he was coming home someday. He put off his homecoming parade so he can spend some private time with his teenage son and daughter.
And about 2,000 moms and dads marched on the nation's capital in the second Million Moms march. They were urging President Bush and the Congress to renew the assault weapons ban. It's set to expire in September. Yesterday's march was much smaller than the first, which took place on Mother's Day four years ago. A dueling rally was held in support of gun ownership rights.
HEMMER: That video from Chechnya is just startling, isn't it?
O'BRIEN: It's shocking to see.
HEMMER: Yes. And to catch that stuff on videotape, too.
(WEATHER BREAK)
HEMMER: In a moment here, did the vampires of the new horror flick, "Van Helsing," take a bite out of the box office weekend take? We'll get to that.
O'BRIEN: And we're going to talk about that, in fact, and lots more in this morning's "90-Second Pop." Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: I love this song. I really do. Welcome back. It is. It makes you want to run on the treadmill or something for a minute and then get back in bed.
TOURE, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. It's time once again for "90- Second Pop". Today, our topics are this: a million-dollar Survivor," a Big Mac attack and a big old surprise from J.Lo? Here to discuss this morning's topics, humorist Andy Borowitz, also "New York" magazine contributing editor Sarah Bernard, and Toure, contributing editor for "Rolling Stone."
Good morning to all of you.
SARAH BERNARD, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Let's see. Where should we begin this morning? Let's start with the "All Stars Survivor" series. A twist at the end, or -- it was kind of, honestly, I thought it kind of was cheesy.
BERNARD: No way!
ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: It wouldn't be "Survivor" -- it wouldn't be "Survivor" if it wasn't a little cheesy.
TOURE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if it wasn't cheesy.
BOROWITZ: I thought it was kind of an exciting ending. Amber, of course, won the million dollars and then...
O'BRIEN: But more importantly she won the guy.
TOURE: She got the man.
BERNARD: Yes.
BOROWITZ: That was very complicated. Boston Rob (ph) lost, which it didn't surprise me really, because he that Boston Red Sox cap, and those guys always lose.
TOURE: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: Oh!
TOURE: Exactly.
BERNARD: But, don't you think...
BOROWITZ: I thought that was a tip-off. But then they got married, and Amber...
O'BRIEN: Engaged. They haven't gotten married yet.
BERNARD: Yes.
BOROWITZ: Engaged.
BERNARD: That will be another show only for that one.
BOROWITZ: It will be the first "Survivor" marriage. Now, Amber gets a million dollars. Boston Rob (ph) gets to marry Amber, so he also sort of gets the million dollars. But I think that was evil plan all along. O'BRIEN: Where is she from? California is a community property state.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: But that's just me.
BOROWITZ: But, I mean, the wedding will be great. You know, there will be Tiki torches. You know, Rudy will be the best man. There will be an exchange of immunity.
BERNARD: I think he was, like, the best reality contestant ever though, because he's the one who got the car. He got her a car. He masterminded the fact that they'd be together in the end. And everyone hated him, because he had to do all the dirty work. But in the end, he got her and the money.
TOURE: I don't know. I mean...
BERNARD: He's a genius!
TOURE: But I don't know. There was a lot of sort of, like, reality show ethics sort of going on. I mean, it became this shamefest, and they were like, you play the game wrong...
O'BRIEN: I thought those were obscene words.
TOURE: ... you have been a jerk, you've screwed us all over and it got really kind of weird.
BERNARD: They all hate each other.
TOURE: I mean, but it was, like, beyond just the show of, like, you -- you know, it was like you played the game wrong and you're a bad person.
BERNARD: It was a lot like "Mean Girls" actually.
BOROWITZ: Tom was really angry -- Tom was really angry at the end. I have no idea what Tom said at all at any point.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's turn and talk about the movies this weekend. "Van Helsing," wow! Look at these numbers! Something like $50 million for "Van Helsing?" That's a really strong opening.
BERNARD: Fifty-four million dollars. I think this proves that no one really reads movie reviews. Why do we write them? Because it didn't matter at all. Everybody slammed this movie, and it was absolutely the runaway hit.
O'BRIEN: But then "New York Minute," which has the Olsen twins, Mary Kate and Ashley, that didn't do -- what, they brought in $6 million? I thought that would be a runaway hit.
TOURE: And girl movies have been top in the last few weeks.
O'BRIEN: And the two of them.
TOURE: "13 going on 30" was hot. Last week "Mean Girls" was hot. And then...
O'BRIEN: What happened? I'm shocked.
BOROWITZ: I don't know.
BERNARD: I think they split it. There was three options. So, it was kind of, you know, some people still saw "Mean Girls," which was really in the top three, and then "New York Minute" was out of the top three. It was four or five.
BOROWITZ: You know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I stayed at home this weekend and just watched my own video of "Brother For Sale." They didn't really need to see the movie.
O'BRIEN: Then there is the movie you saw, "Super Size Me." We actually interviewed the guy who did the documentary.
TOURE: Oh, this was great. Yes, no, it was a documentary about a guy who just eats McDonald's for 30 days three meals a day. He gained 25 pounds. His liver practically falls out. His heart...
BOROWITZ: His internal organs were not loving it.
TOURE: No. I mean, this is, like, art and activism and vice versa, and it's so much fun. And it's so -- it's way scarier than "Van Helsing."
O'BRIEN: Although I would like to point out you can go to Whole Foods and eat organic but fatty foods three times a day for 30 days and you'd also gain 30 pounds.
BOROWITZ: And at least at McDonald's...
O'BRIEN: Not that I'm, like, defending McDonald's here, but, you know...
BOROWITZ: At least at McDonald's in 30 days you'll get awesome toys.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Awesome toys.
O'BRIEN: All right. We've got to -- you know, it's so rare that I do segments on CNN referring to page six, but let's...
BERNARD: Yes.
O'BRIEN: So, let's...
TOURE: That's rare (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O'BRIEN: J.Lo is wearing Mark Anthony's ring. I mean... BERNARD: Does he know that you don't have to get married? You don't have to get married.
O'BRIEN: Not like this.
BERNARD: You can have dates. You can have a boyfriend. You can have a kid. It doesn't -- you don't have to...
O'BRIEN: She's got to stop getting engaged.
TOURE: You can have a boyfriend and a kid.
BERNARD: Yes.
TOURE: It's OK!
BOROWITZ: Mark Anthony, though, is going to do a documentary about what it's like to be married to J.Lo for 30 days, and it's going to be really good.
O'BRIEN: Oh, no.
TOURE: And he's going to gain 25 pounds.
BERNARD: So, this is kind of we're not sure what's going on. She is wearing a ring. It seems obvious like it's his ring.
O'BRIEN: It could be a friendship ring.
BERNARD: Right.
TOURE: This is exactly what she needs to get married again. That's exactly what he's been waiting for.
O'BRIEN: No. Exactly what she does -- you know, here's my advice to J.L.: Take a break from men.
BERNARD: There you go.
O'BRIEN: You know what?
BOROWITZ: There you go.
O'BRIEN: Be your own woman, discover yourself. Right? Sarah, don't think?
BERNARD: I agree.
TOURE: It seems she had that break. The break was the last 10 minutes, and now it's time to get back.
BOROWITZ: Soledad, we've been giving J.Lo great advice like that for months, and she has not listened.
BERNARD: She's not listening.
O'BRIEN: What is it about that? Come on, J.Lo, we've got good advice for you.
All right, you guys, as always, Andy and Sarah and Toure, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Let's go back to Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad, 12 minutes before the hour. In a moment here, the attorneys representing one of the soldiers seen in those now infamous photos, our guest in a moment here.
Also, this dilemma for the Democratic hopeful John Kerry that involves religion. A closer look when we continue in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Pfc. Lynndie England is one of those soldiers seen in those photos from Abu Ghraib prison. She is the one who is holding a leash attached to a naked man. England has now been charged in connection with the alleged abuses.
Military attorneys Giorgio Ra'Shadd and Carl McGuire and Rose Mary Zapor are representing Private England, and they join us from Denver, Colorado.
Good morning to all of you. And thank you very much for being with us.
GIORGIO RA'SHADD, ATTORNEY FOR PFC LYNNDIE ENGLAND: Good morning.
CARL MCGUIRE, FORMER NAVY JAG: Good morning.
ROSE MARY ZAPOR, ATTORNEY FOR PFC LYNNDIE ENGLAND: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Let's start with you, Mr. Ra'Shadd. What has your client told you about her role in the abuse that went on of Iraqi prisoners?
RA'SHADD: Well, I'm flying out this evening actually to have the first face-to-face conference with our client at Ft. Bragg. With regard to anything that she may have communicated that was not in person, of course, that would be subject to attorney/client privilege.
But what I can tell you is, through a third party, the family attorney, Mr. Roy Hardy (ph), we have discovered that the chain of command at Abu Ghraib, the military chain of command was infected by civilian intelligence personnel, who essentially cut her off and cut other persons off from the people who were supposed to train and supervise them.
O'BRIEN: So, then is the argument that she didn't realize that what she was doing was wrong? And as we talk, we can show some of these pictures. Again, we've got a picture of Lynndie England holding the man with a leash, which we showed moments ago; also thumbs-up as she's standing next to a naked Iraqi prisoner. Is her story that she didn't realize that what she was doing was wrong? Is her story that, well, other people told her do this, and she was just following commands?
RA'SHADD: No. I'll handle that in this respect. What was going on was that prison was taken -- the prison command was taken over by the military intelligence and the civilian intelligence infrastructure who were giving the instructions. And they told the folks there, the kids who were the actual MPs and the people in charge that it was their responsibility, their duty to soften up the prisoners so that we would ensure that there would not be another 9/11, so that we would ensure that another one of the military units would not be hit.
Those photos, many of the photos that you see involving our client are staged. They are psychological operation photos. Those were instructed and the ones that weren't specifically instructed were inferred by the civilian intelligence people who essentially took control.
O'BRIEN: I'm confused. Mr. McGuire, maybe you can explain. They were staged? What do you mean by that? That is not a naked Iraqi prisoner who is being held by the neck by a leash by your client?
MCGUIRE: Well, what they mean is -- what they're saying is these were staged so that other prisoners could be shown these pictures, so that they could say look what happens if you don't work with us. If you don't give us the information that we want you to provide to us, you will have this American woman in charge of you doing these things.
So, what was very effective with these photos was they could show these to other prisoners and they could receive information and intelligence that then helped the military.
O'BRIEN: Why is that staging when, in fact, there is an American woman, a military person holding the man by the neck by a leash? I mean, that's not staging. That's actually a photo of what was happening, right?
ZAPOR: No. What you are seeing is a photograph of a person who is placed on the floor, something placed around his neck. We don't know what it is. And that leash being handed to our client and saying, stand there while we take this picture. That's staged. That is not -- that is not a picture of our client abusing a prisoner in any way.
O'BRIEN: Is that...
ZAPOR: In addition -- in addition, we are not sure -- I mean, we've been asked before was she just following orders? It is our position at this point, while we are looking for discovery, that she had no lawful order to follow because of the interference of the civilian authorities in the military chain of command.
O'BRIEN: So, is that going to be what you argue when you go before a court-martial? You're going to say, well, those actually aren't real photos?
RA'SHADD: There will be a number of arguments. Of course, we won't be disclosing our arguments at this time. But there will be a number of arguments. But as more photos are released, you will understand where we are coming from with regard to the defense strategy. But clearly, the honest representation of what the photos depict, who instructed that the photos be taken, why they were taken and why in the world the CIA and Defense Intelligence Service injected themselves into a military chain of command and essentially cut these people off from the military folks, who were charged with training, supervising and commanding them. Somebody has to answer to that, and that has to be the people at the Department of Defense and the State Department.
O'BRIEN: The attorneys for Private First Class Lynndie England joining us this morning. Georgio Ra'Shadd, forgive me for mispronouncing your name when we started, also Carl McGuire and Rose Mary Zapor. I appreciate your time.
ZAPOR: You're welcome.
MCUIRE: Thanks.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: Let's go from that to religion. Back with Jack and the question of the day.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: There you go.
John Kerry, he's a Democrat, and Democrats traditionally support a woman's right to choose. He is a Catholic. The Catholic Church is opposed to anything to do with abortion, considers it wrong. And Mr. Kerry wants to be president of the United States. It's a bit of a problem.
Abortion is, in fact, becoming a litmus test of sorts for politicians who support abortion rights. Some bishops are refusing to administer the sacrament to those who publicly advocate abortion rights.
So, the question is: Should John Kerry be able to support abortion rights and still get communion?
Marge in Maryland writes: "I feel if the Catholic Church wants to make political rules for who does or does not receive communion, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked. You can't have it both ways. You're either a religious entity with tax-exempt status or you're a political entity denying privileges to those who do not agree with your political views."
Gary in Spring Hill, Florida: "Considering the Catholic Church's recent bout of bad publicity, i.e. molestation, maybe they should lay low and keep their opinions to themselves for a while. Known abusers and those involved with the cover-ups were allowed to administer as well as communion." And Mary in Kansas City, says: "Communion is between God and Mr. Kerry only. It's amazing that communions administered to prisoners guilty of murder and rape without protest, but the Catholic congregation feels the need to examine this."
We're getting lots of mail, because any time you discuss religion and/or politics, you get a lot of responses if you discuss them both, and people just go nuts.
HEMMER: Throw another log on that fire, huh?
CAFFERTY: Yes, sir. Pour a little gasoline around and pass the matches.
HEMMER: In a moment here, the U.S. ratchets up the pressure on radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, not without some fiery exchanges again.
Back in a moment at the top of the hour on AMERICAN MORNING.
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Aired May 10, 2004 - 07:31 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 7:31 here in New York.
Just as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said what happened Friday in testimony to Congress, there are new photos showing apparent mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers. The photograph accompanies a new article by journalist Seymour Hersh in "The New Yorker magazine. It appears to show U.S. guards setting dogs on a naked prisoner. Hersh points out that soldiers in the photo are from a different unit than those in photographs published first last week. Hersh telling CNN that the problems at the Abu Ghraib stem at least in part from military leaders who are indifferent to the possibility that their Iraq plans could be wrong.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: These are people who can't cope with information they don't want to hear. They haven't been able to listen to the generals in the Pentagon, who have been saying for six or eight months that we're really in trouble. They won't listen to them. And it's not because it's a cover-up. It's because they don't listen to what they don't want to hear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Seymour Hersh from "WOLF BLITZER" yesterday.
Also, in his current article, Hersh reports that the top U.S. general in Iraq, Ricardo Sanchez, put U.S. prisons there under the command of military intelligence back in November. According to Hersh, that led to a change in Army procedures that had kept military police from participating in those interrogations.
Secretary Rumsfeld, meanwhile, is taking another hit for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. An editorial today in four newspapers -- the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Times -- blasting Secretary Rumsfeld and the joint chiefs chairman, General Richard Myers. The papers are civilian-owned. They are a powerful voice in the military.
Delaware Senator Joe Biden is the ranking Democrat of the Foreign Relations Committee. He is live in Wilmington, Delaware.
Good morning, Senator, and thanks for coming back and talking with us.
Yesterday, you said this administration has lost its moral clarity. How do you get that back?
SEN. JOE BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Well, it seems to me you do it by being decisive now. We have to restore the faith of the people in Iraq in our mission that we are there to actually restore the faith of the people in Iraq in our mission that we're there to actually restore human rights for them and faith in troops that we, in fact, have leadership. And the president seems to be pretty tone-deaf on this. This is a man who usually speaks with moral clarity.
And I think we should be doing everything from bringing in the International Red Cross and opening up the prisons, putting monitors in them right now. We should be announcing that we are prepared to literally bulldoze down that prison, which is a symbol of Saddam's torture, as well as ours. We should be making it clear that people going to be held accountable and that -- you know, I mean, imagine what Ronald Reagan would be doing or saying now. Imagine what Franklin Roosevelt would be doing or saying now.
There seems to be no clarity here, and it seems to be all about Rumsfeld -- whether he should or shouldn't keep his job. We seem concerned about political damage control than we do about damage control of the mission. And you know, that Army, Navy, Marine Times article is a devastating symbolic blow, and it represents what a lot of people have known and what Seymour Hersh has said.
This has been a series of incredibly bad judgments on the part of the civilian leadership from telling the military they'd be greeted from open arms, there would be enough oil to pay for all of this, that there would be an Iraqi army to would stand up. The list goes on. They have not been right about the civilian leadership, has not been right about anything, particularly the amount of force that's needed to provide for security in Iraq. And it's a loss of faith.
HEMMER: Senator, yes, if I could here for a second here, Secretary Rumsfeld has plenty of supporters in Washington thus far. The vice president, Dick Cheney, said over the weekend -- I'm quoting now -- "The best secretary of defense the United States has ever had. People ought to let him do his job." That's from the vice president. Republicans...
BIDEN: I'd like to see him do his job. I'd like to see him do his job.
HEMMER: If I could for a second here, Senator John Warner also expressing his doubt that now you do not want to change course. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: We are in two wars, Afghanistan and Iraq. To pull out the top man at this time and try and go through the complicated procedures of clearances, finding a new individual, bringing him in, bringing in that new individual's staff in the few months before the election, someone better weigh that carefully against these calls for his resignation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: So, the suggestion there is that it would cause more problems than it would solve.
In addition to that, we now know on the 19th of May, a picture of Specialist Sivits, he will be court-martialed in Baghdad. We're told it will be open to Arab press, television cameras possibly as well. Is this a good step forward now on the Monday after the testimony of last Friday?
BIDEN: Well, it seems to me it will be viewed as, you know, swatting at a gnat here. Look, all you've got to do, Bill, is get the military, the uniformed guys, on your program. This is not a secretary of defense that most of them have and no amount of confidence in. I'd rather there be confidence in the field among our military about the direction of our policy than I would about worrying about whether we can get clearances quickly enough.
You know, this is -- I almost feel badly talking about Rumsfeld, because this is so much bigger than Rumsfeld. On June 30, Bill, we're going to hand over power to a new government who is going to have to rely upon 150,000 American troops. Who in that new government is going to be willing to be seen as cooperating with those troops, being cooperating, seen as cooperating with the United States of America, if, in fact, there is not something significantly done to demonstrate we understand the gravity of this?
I don't care if Rumsfeld goes or stays. I think he's irrelevant, quite frankly. He's been wrong so many times, as the vice president has been. Secretary of State Rumsfeld, the uniformed military -- I mean, excuse me -- Secretary of State Powell and the uniformed military, they have been right, right from the beginning. Every general that's been right they've gotten rid of, starting with Shinseki (ph) who said we would need over 200,000 troops. Their policy is not very sound, and they seem to be unwilling to alter any aspect of their policy. The policy is the problem.
HEMMER: Senator, thank you. Joe Biden from Wilmington, Delaware.
I should point out again, today the president goes to the Pentagon. He will be briefed on Iraq, a meeting that was set up long before the events of last week. We'll follow it closely.
Joe Biden there in Wilmington, thanks.
BIDEN: Thanks a lot, Bill.
HEMMER: Sure.
Later today, Texas Senator John Cornyn, a member of the Armed Services Committee, we'll talk to him in our 9:00 a.m. hour here on AMERICAN MORNING about the prisoner abuse scandal -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: All right, turning back to Iraq now, coalition forces are stepping up operations against radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Soldiers destroyed al-Sadr's headquarters in Baghdad overnight. Some 19 insurgents were killed in a series of clashes with U.S. soldiers. And along with a newly-organized Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, a small contingent of coalition forces entered Fallujah. Military officials say the Corps may have better luck persuading insurgents there to disarm.
Thousands of mourners attended the funeral today of Russian- backed provincial President Akhmad Kadyrov. Kadryov was assassinated over the weekend when a bomb exploded in a packed stadium. Look at these pictures. At least five others were killed in the blast. More than 50 people were injured. Russian media claims Chechen separatists are being blamed for those attacks.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has canceled a visit to the U.S. that was set for next week. His office says the trip is delayed while the prime minister re-works a Gaza withdrawal plan. His original plan was rejected by his Likud Party last week.
Former hostage Tommy Hamill was greeted with hugs at his home church in Macon, Mississippi. Hamill, the contractor who escaped his Iraqi captors just over a week ago, told reporters he knew he was coming home someday. He put off his homecoming parade so he can spend some private time with his teenage son and daughter.
And about 2,000 moms and dads marched on the nation's capital in the second Million Moms march. They were urging President Bush and the Congress to renew the assault weapons ban. It's set to expire in September. Yesterday's march was much smaller than the first, which took place on Mother's Day four years ago. A dueling rally was held in support of gun ownership rights.
HEMMER: That video from Chechnya is just startling, isn't it?
O'BRIEN: It's shocking to see.
HEMMER: Yes. And to catch that stuff on videotape, too.
(WEATHER BREAK)
HEMMER: In a moment here, did the vampires of the new horror flick, "Van Helsing," take a bite out of the box office weekend take? We'll get to that.
O'BRIEN: And we're going to talk about that, in fact, and lots more in this morning's "90-Second Pop." Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: I love this song. I really do. Welcome back. It is. It makes you want to run on the treadmill or something for a minute and then get back in bed.
TOURE, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. It's time once again for "90- Second Pop". Today, our topics are this: a million-dollar Survivor," a Big Mac attack and a big old surprise from J.Lo? Here to discuss this morning's topics, humorist Andy Borowitz, also "New York" magazine contributing editor Sarah Bernard, and Toure, contributing editor for "Rolling Stone."
Good morning to all of you.
SARAH BERNARD, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Let's see. Where should we begin this morning? Let's start with the "All Stars Survivor" series. A twist at the end, or -- it was kind of, honestly, I thought it kind of was cheesy.
BERNARD: No way!
ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: It wouldn't be "Survivor" -- it wouldn't be "Survivor" if it wasn't a little cheesy.
TOURE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if it wasn't cheesy.
BOROWITZ: I thought it was kind of an exciting ending. Amber, of course, won the million dollars and then...
O'BRIEN: But more importantly she won the guy.
TOURE: She got the man.
BERNARD: Yes.
BOROWITZ: That was very complicated. Boston Rob (ph) lost, which it didn't surprise me really, because he that Boston Red Sox cap, and those guys always lose.
TOURE: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: Oh!
TOURE: Exactly.
BERNARD: But, don't you think...
BOROWITZ: I thought that was a tip-off. But then they got married, and Amber...
O'BRIEN: Engaged. They haven't gotten married yet.
BERNARD: Yes.
BOROWITZ: Engaged.
BERNARD: That will be another show only for that one.
BOROWITZ: It will be the first "Survivor" marriage. Now, Amber gets a million dollars. Boston Rob (ph) gets to marry Amber, so he also sort of gets the million dollars. But I think that was evil plan all along. O'BRIEN: Where is she from? California is a community property state.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: But that's just me.
BOROWITZ: But, I mean, the wedding will be great. You know, there will be Tiki torches. You know, Rudy will be the best man. There will be an exchange of immunity.
BERNARD: I think he was, like, the best reality contestant ever though, because he's the one who got the car. He got her a car. He masterminded the fact that they'd be together in the end. And everyone hated him, because he had to do all the dirty work. But in the end, he got her and the money.
TOURE: I don't know. I mean...
BERNARD: He's a genius!
TOURE: But I don't know. There was a lot of sort of, like, reality show ethics sort of going on. I mean, it became this shamefest, and they were like, you play the game wrong...
O'BRIEN: I thought those were obscene words.
TOURE: ... you have been a jerk, you've screwed us all over and it got really kind of weird.
BERNARD: They all hate each other.
TOURE: I mean, but it was, like, beyond just the show of, like, you -- you know, it was like you played the game wrong and you're a bad person.
BERNARD: It was a lot like "Mean Girls" actually.
BOROWITZ: Tom was really angry -- Tom was really angry at the end. I have no idea what Tom said at all at any point.
O'BRIEN: All right, let's turn and talk about the movies this weekend. "Van Helsing," wow! Look at these numbers! Something like $50 million for "Van Helsing?" That's a really strong opening.
BERNARD: Fifty-four million dollars. I think this proves that no one really reads movie reviews. Why do we write them? Because it didn't matter at all. Everybody slammed this movie, and it was absolutely the runaway hit.
O'BRIEN: But then "New York Minute," which has the Olsen twins, Mary Kate and Ashley, that didn't do -- what, they brought in $6 million? I thought that would be a runaway hit.
TOURE: And girl movies have been top in the last few weeks.
O'BRIEN: And the two of them.
TOURE: "13 going on 30" was hot. Last week "Mean Girls" was hot. And then...
O'BRIEN: What happened? I'm shocked.
BOROWITZ: I don't know.
BERNARD: I think they split it. There was three options. So, it was kind of, you know, some people still saw "Mean Girls," which was really in the top three, and then "New York Minute" was out of the top three. It was four or five.
BOROWITZ: You know, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I stayed at home this weekend and just watched my own video of "Brother For Sale." They didn't really need to see the movie.
O'BRIEN: Then there is the movie you saw, "Super Size Me." We actually interviewed the guy who did the documentary.
TOURE: Oh, this was great. Yes, no, it was a documentary about a guy who just eats McDonald's for 30 days three meals a day. He gained 25 pounds. His liver practically falls out. His heart...
BOROWITZ: His internal organs were not loving it.
TOURE: No. I mean, this is, like, art and activism and vice versa, and it's so much fun. And it's so -- it's way scarier than "Van Helsing."
O'BRIEN: Although I would like to point out you can go to Whole Foods and eat organic but fatty foods three times a day for 30 days and you'd also gain 30 pounds.
BOROWITZ: And at least at McDonald's...
O'BRIEN: Not that I'm, like, defending McDonald's here, but, you know...
BOROWITZ: At least at McDonald's in 30 days you'll get awesome toys.
(CROSSTALK)
TOURE: Awesome toys.
O'BRIEN: All right. We've got to -- you know, it's so rare that I do segments on CNN referring to page six, but let's...
BERNARD: Yes.
O'BRIEN: So, let's...
TOURE: That's rare (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
O'BRIEN: J.Lo is wearing Mark Anthony's ring. I mean... BERNARD: Does he know that you don't have to get married? You don't have to get married.
O'BRIEN: Not like this.
BERNARD: You can have dates. You can have a boyfriend. You can have a kid. It doesn't -- you don't have to...
O'BRIEN: She's got to stop getting engaged.
TOURE: You can have a boyfriend and a kid.
BERNARD: Yes.
TOURE: It's OK!
BOROWITZ: Mark Anthony, though, is going to do a documentary about what it's like to be married to J.Lo for 30 days, and it's going to be really good.
O'BRIEN: Oh, no.
TOURE: And he's going to gain 25 pounds.
BERNARD: So, this is kind of we're not sure what's going on. She is wearing a ring. It seems obvious like it's his ring.
O'BRIEN: It could be a friendship ring.
BERNARD: Right.
TOURE: This is exactly what she needs to get married again. That's exactly what he's been waiting for.
O'BRIEN: No. Exactly what she does -- you know, here's my advice to J.L.: Take a break from men.
BERNARD: There you go.
O'BRIEN: You know what?
BOROWITZ: There you go.
O'BRIEN: Be your own woman, discover yourself. Right? Sarah, don't think?
BERNARD: I agree.
TOURE: It seems she had that break. The break was the last 10 minutes, and now it's time to get back.
BOROWITZ: Soledad, we've been giving J.Lo great advice like that for months, and she has not listened.
BERNARD: She's not listening.
O'BRIEN: What is it about that? Come on, J.Lo, we've got good advice for you.
All right, you guys, as always, Andy and Sarah and Toure, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Let's go back to Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad, 12 minutes before the hour. In a moment here, the attorneys representing one of the soldiers seen in those now infamous photos, our guest in a moment here.
Also, this dilemma for the Democratic hopeful John Kerry that involves religion. A closer look when we continue in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Pfc. Lynndie England is one of those soldiers seen in those photos from Abu Ghraib prison. She is the one who is holding a leash attached to a naked man. England has now been charged in connection with the alleged abuses.
Military attorneys Giorgio Ra'Shadd and Carl McGuire and Rose Mary Zapor are representing Private England, and they join us from Denver, Colorado.
Good morning to all of you. And thank you very much for being with us.
GIORGIO RA'SHADD, ATTORNEY FOR PFC LYNNDIE ENGLAND: Good morning.
CARL MCGUIRE, FORMER NAVY JAG: Good morning.
ROSE MARY ZAPOR, ATTORNEY FOR PFC LYNNDIE ENGLAND: Good morning.
O'BRIEN: Let's start with you, Mr. Ra'Shadd. What has your client told you about her role in the abuse that went on of Iraqi prisoners?
RA'SHADD: Well, I'm flying out this evening actually to have the first face-to-face conference with our client at Ft. Bragg. With regard to anything that she may have communicated that was not in person, of course, that would be subject to attorney/client privilege.
But what I can tell you is, through a third party, the family attorney, Mr. Roy Hardy (ph), we have discovered that the chain of command at Abu Ghraib, the military chain of command was infected by civilian intelligence personnel, who essentially cut her off and cut other persons off from the people who were supposed to train and supervise them.
O'BRIEN: So, then is the argument that she didn't realize that what she was doing was wrong? And as we talk, we can show some of these pictures. Again, we've got a picture of Lynndie England holding the man with a leash, which we showed moments ago; also thumbs-up as she's standing next to a naked Iraqi prisoner. Is her story that she didn't realize that what she was doing was wrong? Is her story that, well, other people told her do this, and she was just following commands?
RA'SHADD: No. I'll handle that in this respect. What was going on was that prison was taken -- the prison command was taken over by the military intelligence and the civilian intelligence infrastructure who were giving the instructions. And they told the folks there, the kids who were the actual MPs and the people in charge that it was their responsibility, their duty to soften up the prisoners so that we would ensure that there would not be another 9/11, so that we would ensure that another one of the military units would not be hit.
Those photos, many of the photos that you see involving our client are staged. They are psychological operation photos. Those were instructed and the ones that weren't specifically instructed were inferred by the civilian intelligence people who essentially took control.
O'BRIEN: I'm confused. Mr. McGuire, maybe you can explain. They were staged? What do you mean by that? That is not a naked Iraqi prisoner who is being held by the neck by a leash by your client?
MCGUIRE: Well, what they mean is -- what they're saying is these were staged so that other prisoners could be shown these pictures, so that they could say look what happens if you don't work with us. If you don't give us the information that we want you to provide to us, you will have this American woman in charge of you doing these things.
So, what was very effective with these photos was they could show these to other prisoners and they could receive information and intelligence that then helped the military.
O'BRIEN: Why is that staging when, in fact, there is an American woman, a military person holding the man by the neck by a leash? I mean, that's not staging. That's actually a photo of what was happening, right?
ZAPOR: No. What you are seeing is a photograph of a person who is placed on the floor, something placed around his neck. We don't know what it is. And that leash being handed to our client and saying, stand there while we take this picture. That's staged. That is not -- that is not a picture of our client abusing a prisoner in any way.
O'BRIEN: Is that...
ZAPOR: In addition -- in addition, we are not sure -- I mean, we've been asked before was she just following orders? It is our position at this point, while we are looking for discovery, that she had no lawful order to follow because of the interference of the civilian authorities in the military chain of command.
O'BRIEN: So, is that going to be what you argue when you go before a court-martial? You're going to say, well, those actually aren't real photos?
RA'SHADD: There will be a number of arguments. Of course, we won't be disclosing our arguments at this time. But there will be a number of arguments. But as more photos are released, you will understand where we are coming from with regard to the defense strategy. But clearly, the honest representation of what the photos depict, who instructed that the photos be taken, why they were taken and why in the world the CIA and Defense Intelligence Service injected themselves into a military chain of command and essentially cut these people off from the military folks, who were charged with training, supervising and commanding them. Somebody has to answer to that, and that has to be the people at the Department of Defense and the State Department.
O'BRIEN: The attorneys for Private First Class Lynndie England joining us this morning. Georgio Ra'Shadd, forgive me for mispronouncing your name when we started, also Carl McGuire and Rose Mary Zapor. I appreciate your time.
ZAPOR: You're welcome.
MCUIRE: Thanks.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: Let's go from that to religion. Back with Jack and the question of the day.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: There you go.
John Kerry, he's a Democrat, and Democrats traditionally support a woman's right to choose. He is a Catholic. The Catholic Church is opposed to anything to do with abortion, considers it wrong. And Mr. Kerry wants to be president of the United States. It's a bit of a problem.
Abortion is, in fact, becoming a litmus test of sorts for politicians who support abortion rights. Some bishops are refusing to administer the sacrament to those who publicly advocate abortion rights.
So, the question is: Should John Kerry be able to support abortion rights and still get communion?
Marge in Maryland writes: "I feel if the Catholic Church wants to make political rules for who does or does not receive communion, they should have their tax-exempt status revoked. You can't have it both ways. You're either a religious entity with tax-exempt status or you're a political entity denying privileges to those who do not agree with your political views."
Gary in Spring Hill, Florida: "Considering the Catholic Church's recent bout of bad publicity, i.e. molestation, maybe they should lay low and keep their opinions to themselves for a while. Known abusers and those involved with the cover-ups were allowed to administer as well as communion." And Mary in Kansas City, says: "Communion is between God and Mr. Kerry only. It's amazing that communions administered to prisoners guilty of murder and rape without protest, but the Catholic congregation feels the need to examine this."
We're getting lots of mail, because any time you discuss religion and/or politics, you get a lot of responses if you discuss them both, and people just go nuts.
HEMMER: Throw another log on that fire, huh?
CAFFERTY: Yes, sir. Pour a little gasoline around and pass the matches.
HEMMER: In a moment here, the U.S. ratchets up the pressure on radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, not without some fiery exchanges again.
Back in a moment at the top of the hour on AMERICAN MORNING.
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