Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live At Daybreak

America's Voice; Today's Talker: Prisoner Abuse Scandal; Low- Carb Cocktails

Aired May 11, 2004 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Sadistic and wanton criminal abuses. A U.S. Army general testifies today on Capitol Hill in the Iraq prison abuse scandal.
This is DAYBREAK for Tuesday, May 11.

And good morning to you from the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta. I'm Carol Costello. Here are the latest headlines for you now.

You've seen the pictures. Now, you can hear from the Army general who documented the abuses. He testifies before the Senate this morning. You can watch it live right here on CNN.

Two Russian contractors are missing and believed kidnapped following an attack on their vehicle near Baghdad. One Russian energy contractor was killed in the attack. A company spokesman said he believes they were targeted by mistake.

Several people are missing from a civilian convoy that was attacked in western Iraq. It happened today also. The 21-vehicle convoy was heading from Jordan to Baghdad. It was operated by a subsidiary of Halliburton.

And smoke rising over Gaza City. You're looking at pictures just in to CNN this morning of an Israeli attack. Palestinians reported at least five people killed, 40 wounded, and Israel confirms six of its troops were killed by a roadside bomb.

(WEATHER BREAK)

COSTELLO: The general who wrote the scathing Pentagon report detailing Iraqi prisoner abuse appears on Capitol Hill this morning. General Antonio Taguba will testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee. It comes as the Pentagon considers whether to release more photos alleging prisoner abuse.

In his report, Taguba cited the -- quote -- "systematic and illegal abuses of detainees." He concluded numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees.

CNN, of course, will bring you live coverage of Taguba's testimony this morning. That begins at 9:30 Eastern.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski was responsible for all 12 prisons and prison camps in Iraq. As commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, she was also responsible for the infamous Abu Ghraib facility.

As a result of the abuse scandal, she has been relieved of her command and reprimanded. General Karpinski tells our Aaron Brown that some of her soldiers were just following orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. JANIS KARPINSKI, U.S. ARMY: When I looked at those pictures and continue to see those pictures, I don't think that there was anything that was improperly done, because this wasn't something that was a violation of a procedure. This was something they were instructed to do as a completely new procedure. I'm not sure that those MPs had ever been confronted with any instructions like this before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, now we want to know what you think. Our e-mail question of the day: Do you think there will be a scapegoat in the prison abuse scandal? And if so, who? E-mail us your opinions: Daybreak@CNN.com.

If you're wondering how this prison scandal may affect the presidential election, we've got new numbers for you this morning. Let's head live to Princeton, New Jersey, and Gallup Poll editor-in- chief Frank Newport.

Frank, shall we begin with job approval ratings?

FRANK NEWPORT, GALLUP POLL EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Indeed we should. I think when an incumbent president is seeking re-election, Carol, that's probably the single most important measure we can look at, and the signs are not good for George W. Bush on that measure.

Gallup has been taking job approval ratings since Franklin Roosevelt. We've look at all of the incumbents who sought re- election. None of the five since Truman who have been re-elected ever had job approval ratings below 50 percent at this point in May of their election year. Bush is in that territory right now. He's down three points, job approval 46 percent, Carol. That's the lowest of the administration.

And symbolically, if nothing else, for an incumbent president to have a majority disapproving of his performance, which is the case right now, is not a good sign at all in terms of re-election probabilities -- Carol.

COSTELLO: You have more numbers, too: Was the war in Iraq worth it or not? What are the numbers showing on that question?

NEWPORT: Well, the same thing. And, again, this is a critical measure. If you ask me what's the one public opinion measure on the war in Iraq from the American public's perspective that I think is most important, this is it. Was it worth going to war in Iraq? We've been tracking it almost weekly recently. It's been hovering at that 50 percent level, sometimes above, sometimes slightly below. But now, we're down to only 44 percent who say it was worth it, Carol.

Notice 54 percent, a majority of Americans, say it was not. In other words, at least at this point, we've got a majority of Americans saying no, they don't think the basic cost benefit of Iraq was worth it at this point.

However, I should point out it's not necessarily a direct result of people blaming Rumsfeld or Bush for the prison abuse scandals. We gave them this list in the poll: Who is to blame? And we read the list of the people. Notice that it is the prisoners themselves that are the ones -- excuse me, not the prisoners -- the soldiers themselves, those closest to the action, whom Americans are most likely to blame. That's at the top -- the soldiers, the commanders and what have you. Rumsfeld and Bush are way down near the bottom of this blame list for the prisoner abuses -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, tell us about the economy.

NEWPORT: Well, the economy, according to the American public, is not all that great. Now, these data were through last week, so actually even before the Dow cratered, you know, Friday and yesterday. We had Americans telling us they're worried about the direction of the economy. That green line is the percent of Americans who are positive. And as of -- you can see here -- about May 4 down to 43 percent said the economy is getting better, 51 percent worse.

So, that's another worry on Americans' plates -- the economy.

Carol, sorry to be the bringer of bad news this morning, but I just have to say that Americans aren't in a very positive mood as we tapped into their temperature over the last week.

COSTELLO: But it's a long time until the election, Frank.

NEWPORT: That's true.

COSTELLO: Frank Newport live from Princeton, New Jersey.

So, who should shoulder the blame? Next, who is responsible for the prison abuse in Iraq? A perspective from the left and from the right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Time to pump up the volume with our hot talker of the morning. Every few days we like to tune the dial to see what's being said over the airwaves in this country. This morning, we've landed on syndicated conservative libertarian talk master Neal Boortz, and liberal talker Mike Malloy. Both join us live in our studio this morning.

Our hot topic of this morning is that scapegoat thing.

OK, let's start with you, Mike. In his congressional testimony, Donald Rumsfeld said, I take full responsibility for what happened at the Abu Ghraib prison. He won't resign, though. So, what should we make of that?

MIKE MALLOY, LIBERAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: It's a political statement. It's to deflect responsibility away from the commander-in- chief.

You know, the Bush administration in the re-election campaign keeps touting the fact that George Bush is a war president. He's the commander-in-chief. But what Rumsfeld is doing here is what a good commander -- or I should say, defense secretary would do when he knows who is responsible, and that's to deflect the responsibility.

COSTELLO: Is that what he's doing, Neal?

NEAL BOORTZ, CONSERVATIVE RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I like the idea that when Harry Truman says, "the buck stops here," that's a statement of principle, but when Donald Rumsfeld says essentially the same thing, it's a political statement. Actually, he is ultimately responsible. He's the secretary of defense. But you do not always fire the CEO when some of the people who were working under him do something wrong.

We're using the word "scapegoat" here. If you find the person that was directly responsible for these abuses, and if that person is fired or forced to resign, they're not a scapegoat. That doesn't fit the definition. They are being released because of their culpability in what went on in those prisons.

COSTELLO: Well, let me read an e-mail before we go on, Mike.

MALLOY: OK.

COSTELLO: Because we've been getting a lot of e-mails from our viewers, and most of them read like this: "A few National Guardsmen will take the fall, and General Taguba, who may be the last honest man" -- he's the guy that, you know, came up with the report on the Abu Ghraib prison -- "he will wind up in a dark corner behind a desk."

Most people e-mailing us this morning feels the soldiers, the guards, are going to take the fall.

MALLOY: I don't think that that's going to happen in this case, because this situation has gotten so bad. The report is out there from the International Committee of the Red Cross. And I think even more damning is an editorial in the "Army Times" yesterday, where the editorial writer explains that the chain of command goes all the way up to the highest levels of military and civilian leadership. And the term "moron" was used in the "Army Times," referring I'm sorry to Bush and to Rumsfeld.

So, I don't think there is going to be a cover-up. There may be an attempt to scapegoat. But if our military has to accept 5 or 6 or 10 low-level soldiers taking responsibility for this, I think we're going to see a shredding of military principles -- a serious shredding of principle.

COSTELLO: Neal, who do you think will take the blame in the end?

BOORTZ: Well, I almost agree with Mike there, which is shocking. I hate to start drinking this early in the morning. I don't think you'll see a shredding of military principles. You'd see a shredding of military morale, though.

MALLOY: Well, yes.

BOORTZ: If these soldiers -- if these soldiers were freelancing, then they take the fall. If they had a commanding officer that told them to do these things, then he takes the fall and move up as far you have to.

MALLOY: Well, you know...

COSTELLO: What if it's intelligence officers, though? Do you think we'll ever really know?

MALLOY: About who is responsible?

COSTELLO: Yes, if it's a member of the intelligence community.

MALLOY: I think that report put together by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which was released to U.S. military and government authorities months, months ago, laid it out pretty clearly where the responsibility lies. This is a systemic problem.

Now, I might mention Neal's favorite publication, "The Wall Street Journal," carried that report in full yesterday. If there is anything more damning for right-wingers, for conservatives, to deal with is to see something like this in "The Wall Street Journal." There it was.

COSTELLO: Neal?

BOORTZ: Well, I'm going to reject the idea that libertarians or conservatives don't like to hold people responsible for their actions. That usually is something that falls upon the left, and they're welcome to it.

MALLOY: Well, come on, Neal. It falls upon the left, my left foot! You guys on the right are always talking about responsibility. And here's a chance for you -- especially Neal, as important of a talk show host as you are -- here's a chance for you to push responsibility where it belongs, and that's on the upper levels of the military, the upper levels of the Bush administration.

BOORTZ: I will go do...

MALLOY: And I know you're going to do that.

BOORTZ: I will go do my show today, Mike, based upon your marching orders.

MALLOY: Thank you. That's very good. BOORTZ: Yes, sir.

MALLOY: That's very good.

COSTELLO: Neal Boortz and Mike Malloy, thanks for joining us this morning.

MALLOY: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: I must say that last part was quite enjoyable to listen to.

Let's head live to New York City now and check in with Bill and Soledad for a look at what's coming up on "AMERICAN MORNING."

Good morning to you.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol. Good morning.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol. You looked great yesterday, by the way, at Kent State University over the weekend.

O'BRIEN: Yes, congratulations!

COSTELLO: Thank you.

HEMMER: You really looked great.

O'BRIEN: That's exciting.

HEMMER: Good time?

COSTELLO: It was a thrilling experience.

HEMMER: Yes.

COSTELLO: I mean, I gave the commencement speech, and I don't know, you probably don't know this, but I also received a degree. So, I'm feeling pretty good this morning.

O'BRIEN: All right!

HEMMER: All right!

O'BRIEN: Dr. Carol.

COSTELLO: No, I wish.

O'BRIEN: I like the way that sounds, though.

HEMMER: Carol, listen, in a moment here on "AMERICAN MORNING," a lot more coverage of what's happening later today at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time when Major General Antonio Taguba testifies. Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon with live coverage again later this morning at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time waiting to hear what more we will learn in that report. O'BRIEN: And, of course, we're continuing to talk about Donald Rumsfeld and what his role will be. Dana Bash reports this morning from the White House. We heard, of course, President Bush very strongly backing his secretary of defense. And, of course, there are questions now about compensating some of the prisoners for their abuse. That's ahead this morning.

HEMMER: Also, on a much lighter note, this weekend a huge movie opens up, $200 million to make a movie called "Troy." Brad Pitts is the marquee guy, and we've got him on our show today. We'll talk to him about the challenges therein.

O'BRIEN: Yum! How come you got to interview Brad Pitt? Hello!

HEMMER: You were busy.

COSTELLO: Exactly.

HEMMER: I asked Soledad first.

COSTELLO: Bill says we'll talk about the challenges Brad Pitt faced.

O'BRIEN: Oh, blah, blah, blah!

COSTELLO: Soledad is like "yum." See you guys in...

HEMMER: Carol, they asked Soledad to do it first, and she couldn't, so I had to step in there.

O'BRIEN: This whole bed rest pregnancy thing.

HEMMER: You know, it's kind of interesting what he says, though, if we've got a minute here. I asked about that pressure to perform and make $200 million back at the box office and break even, and he said, I never really think about it.

O'BRIEN: See, I would have asked him, what's it like to be so good-looking? But that's me.

COSTELLO: So good-looking and so rich.

O'BRIEN: Oh, yum!

COSTELLO: Thanks to both of you. We'll see you in 10 minutes. Exactly.

Your news, money, weather and sports. It is 6:47 Eastern Time. Here's what's all new this morning.

The general who prepared a report on the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal will testify before Congress this morning. Major General Antonio Taguba calls the treatment of some prisoners sadistic and criminal.

Kobe Bryant is expected back in court today, where he may enter a plea in his sexual assault case. Bryant's accuser made a surprise appearance in court during Monday's hearing.

In money news, the Dow will open this morning down more than 127 points. Much of the drop is due to worries over a possible rise in interest rates. The Nasdaq is down more than 20 points.

In sports, the Philadelphia Fliers spanked the Tampa Bay Lightning 6-2 in game two of the Eastern Conference finals. The series is now tied at one game apiece.

In culture, possible trouble for the Cannes Film Festival. Protesting French show business workers blocked the delivery of some films. They're upset about cuts in unemployment benefits and promise more protests when the festival begins tomorrow.

(WEATHER BREAK)

COSTELLO: Those are the latest headlines for you.

Time for a little business buzz now. You don't have to skip happy hour because you're on a low-carb diet. One wine company is making a vintage just for you.

Carrie Lee pops the cork on this story live from the Nasdaq Marketsite.

CARRIE LEE, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS: A new vintage coming from Brown Forman. This is a wine and spirits company behind Jack Daniels and some other names. A new vintage; not such a new idea, though, anymore, Carol. Low carbs are really hitting a lot of food and beverage retailers lately.

They have a couple of names coming out on Memorial Day. Places like Costco and Wal-Mart have already been buying them. The names are 1.6 Chardonnay and 1.9 Marlow (ph). And these are brand names for the grams of carbs per five-ounce serving. They're about half the level of carbs of regular wines. Fascinating.

This is a $39 billion industry now, the low-carb industry. Heinz One ketchup, one-carb ketchup is coming out this week on store shelves. Companies have been affected in many ways by this craze.

KKD, Krispy Kreme Donuts, for examples, has lost over a third of its value in the past two days alone in terms of the stock price. The first-ever profit warning coming because the low-carb craze has been hurting that company. New World Pasta, maker of Ronzoni, actually filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy earlier this week because of the issue.

So, it's really affecting a lot of companies. We'll see, as always, if it lasts.

Meanwhile, for stocks, it looks like we could see a bit of a rebound after big losses yesterday. A lot of people are waiting to hear from Cisco Systems reporting profits after the close of trading tonight.

And that's the latest from the Nasdaq Marketsite. DAYBREAK will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Oh, well, I'm looking at the computer...

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Time for the e-mail.

COSTELLO: ... because we've been getting so many e-mails about our...

MYERS: They're still flying in.

COSTELLO: ... from our question of the day. We're talking about the prison abuse scandal. Who will be the scapegoat?

This is from Tom from Syracuse, New York. He says: "It's Watergate all over again as we spend untold months to find someone to blame instead of blaming renegade GIs who choose to disregard all they were taught."

This one is from Bobbi (ph). She says: "If our lady of justice is blind, then no scapegoat can be seen. But unfortunately, we will blame it all on the perils of war and not ourselves."

And this one is from Jim from California. He says: "President Bush may have to let Donald Rumsfeld be a scapegoat. Too bad, because he's done a good job."

MYERS: And from Jim in Gainesville, Virginia: "You can bet that by the time all of the hearings are held, military top brass will have identified one, maybe two, low-level officers, and they will take the fall only because they're never going to be senior-level officers in the first place."

And from Bill in Alexandria: "A couple of bad apples doesn't ruin the barrel. The media needs to move on and trust our military to handle the problem."

COSTELLO: Interesting.

MYERS: Let's hope that they can.

COSTELLO: Thank you for your e-mails this morning.

MYERS: Yes.

It's time to give away the mug.

COSTELLO: OK, let's -- oh, here it is.

MYERS: Here it is. Yesterday, our question: In the business report, the Lundberg survey said how much is a gallon of gas right now? A buck 93 was there. And I saw my gas go up six cents from yesterday. So, I'm not sure what it is today.

Combined, the four military newspapers published by the Gannett Company making up what kind of group. What was the name of that group?

COSTELLO: That was a tough one.

MYERS: It was a very hard question. And I'm looking for it. The answer...

COSTELLO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MYERS: The answer is the Military Times Media Group, because there are armed forces, and there is blah, blah, blah.

COSTELLO: Oh, goodness! OK, who won? Who the heck won?

MYERS: Susan Sullivan from Hanover, Massachusetts, our first cup up to New England, our first winner from Massachusetts.

COSTELLO: Congrats, Susan.

MYERS: Congratulations to Susan.

And now, our questions for today. What is the -- here we go. What is the estimated cost of the FBI computer upgrade effort to prevent terrorist attacks? And the average U.S. tax refund rose by what percent?

COSTELLO: Wow!

MYERS: Mine went down by about 5 percent because of alternative minimum tax.

COSTELLO: Daybreak@CNN.com. Daybreak@CNN.com. Send your answers flying to us.

MYERS: Do not try to find it on CNN.com. Go to your little e- mail, type in Daybreak@CNN.com. So many people can't find the link on our show, because there isn't one. Type it in.

COSTELLO: We're going to have to fix that problem.

We're going to be back in a minute, but first the latest headlines for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MYERS: We have used all of our time this morning.

COSTELLO: Yes, our producer keeps telling us, literally, we only have 10 seconds, so we will say good-bye. "AMERICAN MORNING" starts right now. You make it a great day.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.


Aired May 11, 2004 - 06:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Sadistic and wanton criminal abuses. A U.S. Army general testifies today on Capitol Hill in the Iraq prison abuse scandal.
This is DAYBREAK for Tuesday, May 11.

And good morning to you from the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta. I'm Carol Costello. Here are the latest headlines for you now.

You've seen the pictures. Now, you can hear from the Army general who documented the abuses. He testifies before the Senate this morning. You can watch it live right here on CNN.

Two Russian contractors are missing and believed kidnapped following an attack on their vehicle near Baghdad. One Russian energy contractor was killed in the attack. A company spokesman said he believes they were targeted by mistake.

Several people are missing from a civilian convoy that was attacked in western Iraq. It happened today also. The 21-vehicle convoy was heading from Jordan to Baghdad. It was operated by a subsidiary of Halliburton.

And smoke rising over Gaza City. You're looking at pictures just in to CNN this morning of an Israeli attack. Palestinians reported at least five people killed, 40 wounded, and Israel confirms six of its troops were killed by a roadside bomb.

(WEATHER BREAK)

COSTELLO: The general who wrote the scathing Pentagon report detailing Iraqi prisoner abuse appears on Capitol Hill this morning. General Antonio Taguba will testify before the Senate Armed Services Committee. It comes as the Pentagon considers whether to release more photos alleging prisoner abuse.

In his report, Taguba cited the -- quote -- "systematic and illegal abuses of detainees." He concluded numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees.

CNN, of course, will bring you live coverage of Taguba's testimony this morning. That begins at 9:30 Eastern.

Brigadier General Janis Karpinski was responsible for all 12 prisons and prison camps in Iraq. As commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade, she was also responsible for the infamous Abu Ghraib facility.

As a result of the abuse scandal, she has been relieved of her command and reprimanded. General Karpinski tells our Aaron Brown that some of her soldiers were just following orders.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. JANIS KARPINSKI, U.S. ARMY: When I looked at those pictures and continue to see those pictures, I don't think that there was anything that was improperly done, because this wasn't something that was a violation of a procedure. This was something they were instructed to do as a completely new procedure. I'm not sure that those MPs had ever been confronted with any instructions like this before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: So, now we want to know what you think. Our e-mail question of the day: Do you think there will be a scapegoat in the prison abuse scandal? And if so, who? E-mail us your opinions: Daybreak@CNN.com.

If you're wondering how this prison scandal may affect the presidential election, we've got new numbers for you this morning. Let's head live to Princeton, New Jersey, and Gallup Poll editor-in- chief Frank Newport.

Frank, shall we begin with job approval ratings?

FRANK NEWPORT, GALLUP POLL EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Indeed we should. I think when an incumbent president is seeking re-election, Carol, that's probably the single most important measure we can look at, and the signs are not good for George W. Bush on that measure.

Gallup has been taking job approval ratings since Franklin Roosevelt. We've look at all of the incumbents who sought re- election. None of the five since Truman who have been re-elected ever had job approval ratings below 50 percent at this point in May of their election year. Bush is in that territory right now. He's down three points, job approval 46 percent, Carol. That's the lowest of the administration.

And symbolically, if nothing else, for an incumbent president to have a majority disapproving of his performance, which is the case right now, is not a good sign at all in terms of re-election probabilities -- Carol.

COSTELLO: You have more numbers, too: Was the war in Iraq worth it or not? What are the numbers showing on that question?

NEWPORT: Well, the same thing. And, again, this is a critical measure. If you ask me what's the one public opinion measure on the war in Iraq from the American public's perspective that I think is most important, this is it. Was it worth going to war in Iraq? We've been tracking it almost weekly recently. It's been hovering at that 50 percent level, sometimes above, sometimes slightly below. But now, we're down to only 44 percent who say it was worth it, Carol.

Notice 54 percent, a majority of Americans, say it was not. In other words, at least at this point, we've got a majority of Americans saying no, they don't think the basic cost benefit of Iraq was worth it at this point.

However, I should point out it's not necessarily a direct result of people blaming Rumsfeld or Bush for the prison abuse scandals. We gave them this list in the poll: Who is to blame? And we read the list of the people. Notice that it is the prisoners themselves that are the ones -- excuse me, not the prisoners -- the soldiers themselves, those closest to the action, whom Americans are most likely to blame. That's at the top -- the soldiers, the commanders and what have you. Rumsfeld and Bush are way down near the bottom of this blame list for the prisoner abuses -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Well, tell us about the economy.

NEWPORT: Well, the economy, according to the American public, is not all that great. Now, these data were through last week, so actually even before the Dow cratered, you know, Friday and yesterday. We had Americans telling us they're worried about the direction of the economy. That green line is the percent of Americans who are positive. And as of -- you can see here -- about May 4 down to 43 percent said the economy is getting better, 51 percent worse.

So, that's another worry on Americans' plates -- the economy.

Carol, sorry to be the bringer of bad news this morning, but I just have to say that Americans aren't in a very positive mood as we tapped into their temperature over the last week.

COSTELLO: But it's a long time until the election, Frank.

NEWPORT: That's true.

COSTELLO: Frank Newport live from Princeton, New Jersey.

So, who should shoulder the blame? Next, who is responsible for the prison abuse in Iraq? A perspective from the left and from the right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Time to pump up the volume with our hot talker of the morning. Every few days we like to tune the dial to see what's being said over the airwaves in this country. This morning, we've landed on syndicated conservative libertarian talk master Neal Boortz, and liberal talker Mike Malloy. Both join us live in our studio this morning.

Our hot topic of this morning is that scapegoat thing.

OK, let's start with you, Mike. In his congressional testimony, Donald Rumsfeld said, I take full responsibility for what happened at the Abu Ghraib prison. He won't resign, though. So, what should we make of that?

MIKE MALLOY, LIBERAL RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: It's a political statement. It's to deflect responsibility away from the commander-in- chief.

You know, the Bush administration in the re-election campaign keeps touting the fact that George Bush is a war president. He's the commander-in-chief. But what Rumsfeld is doing here is what a good commander -- or I should say, defense secretary would do when he knows who is responsible, and that's to deflect the responsibility.

COSTELLO: Is that what he's doing, Neal?

NEAL BOORTZ, CONSERVATIVE RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I like the idea that when Harry Truman says, "the buck stops here," that's a statement of principle, but when Donald Rumsfeld says essentially the same thing, it's a political statement. Actually, he is ultimately responsible. He's the secretary of defense. But you do not always fire the CEO when some of the people who were working under him do something wrong.

We're using the word "scapegoat" here. If you find the person that was directly responsible for these abuses, and if that person is fired or forced to resign, they're not a scapegoat. That doesn't fit the definition. They are being released because of their culpability in what went on in those prisons.

COSTELLO: Well, let me read an e-mail before we go on, Mike.

MALLOY: OK.

COSTELLO: Because we've been getting a lot of e-mails from our viewers, and most of them read like this: "A few National Guardsmen will take the fall, and General Taguba, who may be the last honest man" -- he's the guy that, you know, came up with the report on the Abu Ghraib prison -- "he will wind up in a dark corner behind a desk."

Most people e-mailing us this morning feels the soldiers, the guards, are going to take the fall.

MALLOY: I don't think that that's going to happen in this case, because this situation has gotten so bad. The report is out there from the International Committee of the Red Cross. And I think even more damning is an editorial in the "Army Times" yesterday, where the editorial writer explains that the chain of command goes all the way up to the highest levels of military and civilian leadership. And the term "moron" was used in the "Army Times," referring I'm sorry to Bush and to Rumsfeld.

So, I don't think there is going to be a cover-up. There may be an attempt to scapegoat. But if our military has to accept 5 or 6 or 10 low-level soldiers taking responsibility for this, I think we're going to see a shredding of military principles -- a serious shredding of principle.

COSTELLO: Neal, who do you think will take the blame in the end?

BOORTZ: Well, I almost agree with Mike there, which is shocking. I hate to start drinking this early in the morning. I don't think you'll see a shredding of military principles. You'd see a shredding of military morale, though.

MALLOY: Well, yes.

BOORTZ: If these soldiers -- if these soldiers were freelancing, then they take the fall. If they had a commanding officer that told them to do these things, then he takes the fall and move up as far you have to.

MALLOY: Well, you know...

COSTELLO: What if it's intelligence officers, though? Do you think we'll ever really know?

MALLOY: About who is responsible?

COSTELLO: Yes, if it's a member of the intelligence community.

MALLOY: I think that report put together by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which was released to U.S. military and government authorities months, months ago, laid it out pretty clearly where the responsibility lies. This is a systemic problem.

Now, I might mention Neal's favorite publication, "The Wall Street Journal," carried that report in full yesterday. If there is anything more damning for right-wingers, for conservatives, to deal with is to see something like this in "The Wall Street Journal." There it was.

COSTELLO: Neal?

BOORTZ: Well, I'm going to reject the idea that libertarians or conservatives don't like to hold people responsible for their actions. That usually is something that falls upon the left, and they're welcome to it.

MALLOY: Well, come on, Neal. It falls upon the left, my left foot! You guys on the right are always talking about responsibility. And here's a chance for you -- especially Neal, as important of a talk show host as you are -- here's a chance for you to push responsibility where it belongs, and that's on the upper levels of the military, the upper levels of the Bush administration.

BOORTZ: I will go do...

MALLOY: And I know you're going to do that.

BOORTZ: I will go do my show today, Mike, based upon your marching orders.

MALLOY: Thank you. That's very good. BOORTZ: Yes, sir.

MALLOY: That's very good.

COSTELLO: Neal Boortz and Mike Malloy, thanks for joining us this morning.

MALLOY: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: I must say that last part was quite enjoyable to listen to.

Let's head live to New York City now and check in with Bill and Soledad for a look at what's coming up on "AMERICAN MORNING."

Good morning to you.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol. Good morning.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol. You looked great yesterday, by the way, at Kent State University over the weekend.

O'BRIEN: Yes, congratulations!

COSTELLO: Thank you.

HEMMER: You really looked great.

O'BRIEN: That's exciting.

HEMMER: Good time?

COSTELLO: It was a thrilling experience.

HEMMER: Yes.

COSTELLO: I mean, I gave the commencement speech, and I don't know, you probably don't know this, but I also received a degree. So, I'm feeling pretty good this morning.

O'BRIEN: All right!

HEMMER: All right!

O'BRIEN: Dr. Carol.

COSTELLO: No, I wish.

O'BRIEN: I like the way that sounds, though.

HEMMER: Carol, listen, in a moment here on "AMERICAN MORNING," a lot more coverage of what's happening later today at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time when Major General Antonio Taguba testifies. Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon with live coverage again later this morning at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time waiting to hear what more we will learn in that report. O'BRIEN: And, of course, we're continuing to talk about Donald Rumsfeld and what his role will be. Dana Bash reports this morning from the White House. We heard, of course, President Bush very strongly backing his secretary of defense. And, of course, there are questions now about compensating some of the prisoners for their abuse. That's ahead this morning.

HEMMER: Also, on a much lighter note, this weekend a huge movie opens up, $200 million to make a movie called "Troy." Brad Pitts is the marquee guy, and we've got him on our show today. We'll talk to him about the challenges therein.

O'BRIEN: Yum! How come you got to interview Brad Pitt? Hello!

HEMMER: You were busy.

COSTELLO: Exactly.

HEMMER: I asked Soledad first.

COSTELLO: Bill says we'll talk about the challenges Brad Pitt faced.

O'BRIEN: Oh, blah, blah, blah!

COSTELLO: Soledad is like "yum." See you guys in...

HEMMER: Carol, they asked Soledad to do it first, and she couldn't, so I had to step in there.

O'BRIEN: This whole bed rest pregnancy thing.

HEMMER: You know, it's kind of interesting what he says, though, if we've got a minute here. I asked about that pressure to perform and make $200 million back at the box office and break even, and he said, I never really think about it.

O'BRIEN: See, I would have asked him, what's it like to be so good-looking? But that's me.

COSTELLO: So good-looking and so rich.

O'BRIEN: Oh, yum!

COSTELLO: Thanks to both of you. We'll see you in 10 minutes. Exactly.

Your news, money, weather and sports. It is 6:47 Eastern Time. Here's what's all new this morning.

The general who prepared a report on the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal will testify before Congress this morning. Major General Antonio Taguba calls the treatment of some prisoners sadistic and criminal.

Kobe Bryant is expected back in court today, where he may enter a plea in his sexual assault case. Bryant's accuser made a surprise appearance in court during Monday's hearing.

In money news, the Dow will open this morning down more than 127 points. Much of the drop is due to worries over a possible rise in interest rates. The Nasdaq is down more than 20 points.

In sports, the Philadelphia Fliers spanked the Tampa Bay Lightning 6-2 in game two of the Eastern Conference finals. The series is now tied at one game apiece.

In culture, possible trouble for the Cannes Film Festival. Protesting French show business workers blocked the delivery of some films. They're upset about cuts in unemployment benefits and promise more protests when the festival begins tomorrow.

(WEATHER BREAK)

COSTELLO: Those are the latest headlines for you.

Time for a little business buzz now. You don't have to skip happy hour because you're on a low-carb diet. One wine company is making a vintage just for you.

Carrie Lee pops the cork on this story live from the Nasdaq Marketsite.

CARRIE LEE, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS: A new vintage coming from Brown Forman. This is a wine and spirits company behind Jack Daniels and some other names. A new vintage; not such a new idea, though, anymore, Carol. Low carbs are really hitting a lot of food and beverage retailers lately.

They have a couple of names coming out on Memorial Day. Places like Costco and Wal-Mart have already been buying them. The names are 1.6 Chardonnay and 1.9 Marlow (ph). And these are brand names for the grams of carbs per five-ounce serving. They're about half the level of carbs of regular wines. Fascinating.

This is a $39 billion industry now, the low-carb industry. Heinz One ketchup, one-carb ketchup is coming out this week on store shelves. Companies have been affected in many ways by this craze.

KKD, Krispy Kreme Donuts, for examples, has lost over a third of its value in the past two days alone in terms of the stock price. The first-ever profit warning coming because the low-carb craze has been hurting that company. New World Pasta, maker of Ronzoni, actually filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy earlier this week because of the issue.

So, it's really affecting a lot of companies. We'll see, as always, if it lasts.

Meanwhile, for stocks, it looks like we could see a bit of a rebound after big losses yesterday. A lot of people are waiting to hear from Cisco Systems reporting profits after the close of trading tonight.

And that's the latest from the Nasdaq Marketsite. DAYBREAK will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Oh, well, I'm looking at the computer...

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Time for the e-mail.

COSTELLO: ... because we've been getting so many e-mails about our...

MYERS: They're still flying in.

COSTELLO: ... from our question of the day. We're talking about the prison abuse scandal. Who will be the scapegoat?

This is from Tom from Syracuse, New York. He says: "It's Watergate all over again as we spend untold months to find someone to blame instead of blaming renegade GIs who choose to disregard all they were taught."

This one is from Bobbi (ph). She says: "If our lady of justice is blind, then no scapegoat can be seen. But unfortunately, we will blame it all on the perils of war and not ourselves."

And this one is from Jim from California. He says: "President Bush may have to let Donald Rumsfeld be a scapegoat. Too bad, because he's done a good job."

MYERS: And from Jim in Gainesville, Virginia: "You can bet that by the time all of the hearings are held, military top brass will have identified one, maybe two, low-level officers, and they will take the fall only because they're never going to be senior-level officers in the first place."

And from Bill in Alexandria: "A couple of bad apples doesn't ruin the barrel. The media needs to move on and trust our military to handle the problem."

COSTELLO: Interesting.

MYERS: Let's hope that they can.

COSTELLO: Thank you for your e-mails this morning.

MYERS: Yes.

It's time to give away the mug.

COSTELLO: OK, let's -- oh, here it is.

MYERS: Here it is. Yesterday, our question: In the business report, the Lundberg survey said how much is a gallon of gas right now? A buck 93 was there. And I saw my gas go up six cents from yesterday. So, I'm not sure what it is today.

Combined, the four military newspapers published by the Gannett Company making up what kind of group. What was the name of that group?

COSTELLO: That was a tough one.

MYERS: It was a very hard question. And I'm looking for it. The answer...

COSTELLO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MYERS: The answer is the Military Times Media Group, because there are armed forces, and there is blah, blah, blah.

COSTELLO: Oh, goodness! OK, who won? Who the heck won?

MYERS: Susan Sullivan from Hanover, Massachusetts, our first cup up to New England, our first winner from Massachusetts.

COSTELLO: Congrats, Susan.

MYERS: Congratulations to Susan.

And now, our questions for today. What is the -- here we go. What is the estimated cost of the FBI computer upgrade effort to prevent terrorist attacks? And the average U.S. tax refund rose by what percent?

COSTELLO: Wow!

MYERS: Mine went down by about 5 percent because of alternative minimum tax.

COSTELLO: Daybreak@CNN.com. Daybreak@CNN.com. Send your answers flying to us.

MYERS: Do not try to find it on CNN.com. Go to your little e- mail, type in Daybreak@CNN.com. So many people can't find the link on our show, because there isn't one. Type it in.

COSTELLO: We're going to have to fix that problem.

We're going to be back in a minute, but first the latest headlines for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MYERS: We have used all of our time this morning.

COSTELLO: Yes, our producer keeps telling us, literally, we only have 10 seconds, so we will say good-bye. "AMERICAN MORNING" starts right now. You make it a great day.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.