Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Today

Testimony Shows More Details of Control at Abu Ghraib Prison

Aired May 11, 2004 - 11:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We've been listening in to testimony from the Senate Armed Services Committee. More testimony on what took place at Abu Ghraib Prison just outside Baghdad concerning prisoner abuse. A lot of questions, direct question, from the senators to the three people in front of them. Most notably, Major General Antonio Taguba, who initiated the report at the prison. And the bottom line question how did this happen?
We've been listening to the testimony close to two hours. We will dip back in. We have a break coming up. But before that let's bring in Scott Silliman, a former Air Force attorney, now a professor at Duke University who's been listening in with us as well.

Scott, good morning. Thanks for being with us.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE UNIVERSITY: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: Beyond the question of how did this happen and exactly what happened, there seems to be a lot of questioning today focused on where the line is drawn between military intelligence and the Army, and the military running the prison?

SILLIMAN: You're exactly correct, Daryn. And what we're seeing in the gaps in the testimony between Secretary Cambone and General Taguba is that there was some kind of relationship between the military police and the prison and the military intelligence folk.

General Taguba's investigation did not get into that. That was not within his charter. And that's what this Faye Investigation is all about. Secretary Cambone is suggesting -- and General Smith was suggesting that there should be some kind of relationship for transfer of information from guards to interrogators.

We know from the facts -- or it's strongly suspected from the facts, that that relationship actually resulted in pressure being put upon the military police to get into a more coercive tactics.

The real question is whether that was improved at least tacitly by General Sanchez or someone below, or whether it came from General Karpinski or whether it was just the activity of those low-level guards and military intelligence folks in the prison. That's not been answered yet.

KAGAN: Well, as you go up the chain of command and they're look at, the question seems to be who was running the place and who was in charge? And from the hearings so far today and the reports, that doesn't seem to be exactly clear.

SILLIMAN: No it doesn't, Daryn. And even General Taguba's report leaves that in question. He suggests that General Karpinski -- and he said it in his testimony, she obviously could go anywhere she wanted to. She wasn't excluded from any areas. And yet he did say effectively control of the prison was passed to intelligence folks.

That creates an ambiguity, a confusion which obviously filtered down to the guards. We know from elsewhere in this report he suggested they were not wearing uniforms. Discipline had totally broken down. So we know that the prison was in shambles, as far as discipline. And that was part of the reason why these abuses may have taken place.

But the real question is, was there some higher level of sanction, even implicitly? And that's what the senators are trying to get at.

KAGAN: Which makes it interesting of what we're going to see happen next week, the first court-martial taking place coming up.

One of the prison guards, a man trained as a truck mechanic, who found himself as a prison guard in Iraq, it makes you wonder was that person responsible or do you go all the way up the chain of command to hold somebody responsible?

SILLIMAN: Daryn, i think that first court-martial is supposedly of the young sergeant who was taking the pictures. And from what we're hearing, he may be pleading to the case and he may be used in testimony against some of the others that were perhaps more directly involved.

So I'm not sure we're going to learn that much about the facts of the abuse from this first court-martial. Although obviously the Army was very eager to move on quickly to get the judicial process going, the whole world is expecting that.

But, again, the focus of attention right now is properly on these hearings and what's being developed in the testimony.

KAGAN: We'll have you sit tight and continue to listen in with us. Professor Scott Silliman from Duke University. Much more ahead with the professor. Also more hearings a head.

Right now, we pause and take a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We're going to continue to monitor the testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, including testimony from Major General Antonio Taguba, who authored the initial report at the alleged abuses at the Abu Ghraib Prison near Baghdad.

Meanwhile, speaking of Baghdad, it has been a rough day in Iraq. Another truck convoy attacked.

For more on that, let's go to our Karl Penhaul, standing by in Baghdad -- Karl.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there.

Yes, U.S. officials have told us that a 21-truck convoy traveling from Jordan through -- to Baghdad, was attacked on the main highway that runs east to west here in Iraq. The convoy was apparently attacked fairly close to the border, near the town of Ar Rutbah (ph). So far, though, no word on how many trucks may have been destroyed in that and how many casualties there may have been.

The U.S. official telling, though, nevertheless telling us that there were a number of personnel missing. We do understand that it was civilian personnel traveling on that convoy. Not sure at this whether there was a military escort with those trucks.

Now in other violence, also in other parts of Iraq, in the northern city of Kirkuk, a bomb exploded this morning in one of the crowded marketplaces in a Kurdish neighborhood in Kirkuk. Obviously, a mainly Kurdish city, but nevertheless, there are members of other ethnic groups also living there. But this bomb, as I say, exploding in a Kurdish neighborhood. Three people died in that incident, all civilians, we're told. Twenty two others were wounded. Some of those seriously. Again, so far, no word on who may have been behind that bombing.

And then on another issue affecting international personnel here in the country, the Russians again, Russian civilian contractors again the target of killers and kidnappers. Late last night, we understand they were traveling south from Baghdad and attackers closed in on their truck. Two Russians, we're told, have been kidnapped. One was killed in that attack -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Karl, just a little bit more information on this truck convoy that was attacked, is it not run by the same company, Kellogg Brown & Root, that was the same company that Tommy Hamill, the former U.S. hostage, was working for when he was taken into custody.

PENHAUL: Information has been a little bit sketchy so far. We are re told that it may be a subsidiary of KBR, the company you referred to, not directly run by KBR itself, though, the U.S. official has told us. They've also said we'll hold off on giving the confirmed name yet. They think they know who the convoy was being run by, and definitely say they do believe it was a subsidiary of KBR.

But again, whether a KBR convoy or any other kind of civilian or military convoy on this road that lead east to west from -- between Baghdad and the Jordanian border, repeated attacks there. Those attacks, though, did drop out of the limelight. They were very much in the news about three weeks ago, you may remember, along with hostage-taking incidents, but then were superseded by other military events on the ground and also other kind of other political and prisoner scandal as well -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Karl Penhaul in Baghdad. Karl, thank you for that.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 11, 2004 - 11:06   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We've been listening in to testimony from the Senate Armed Services Committee. More testimony on what took place at Abu Ghraib Prison just outside Baghdad concerning prisoner abuse. A lot of questions, direct question, from the senators to the three people in front of them. Most notably, Major General Antonio Taguba, who initiated the report at the prison. And the bottom line question how did this happen?
We've been listening to the testimony close to two hours. We will dip back in. We have a break coming up. But before that let's bring in Scott Silliman, a former Air Force attorney, now a professor at Duke University who's been listening in with us as well.

Scott, good morning. Thanks for being with us.

SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE UNIVERSITY: Good morning, Daryn.

KAGAN: Beyond the question of how did this happen and exactly what happened, there seems to be a lot of questioning today focused on where the line is drawn between military intelligence and the Army, and the military running the prison?

SILLIMAN: You're exactly correct, Daryn. And what we're seeing in the gaps in the testimony between Secretary Cambone and General Taguba is that there was some kind of relationship between the military police and the prison and the military intelligence folk.

General Taguba's investigation did not get into that. That was not within his charter. And that's what this Faye Investigation is all about. Secretary Cambone is suggesting -- and General Smith was suggesting that there should be some kind of relationship for transfer of information from guards to interrogators.

We know from the facts -- or it's strongly suspected from the facts, that that relationship actually resulted in pressure being put upon the military police to get into a more coercive tactics.

The real question is whether that was improved at least tacitly by General Sanchez or someone below, or whether it came from General Karpinski or whether it was just the activity of those low-level guards and military intelligence folks in the prison. That's not been answered yet.

KAGAN: Well, as you go up the chain of command and they're look at, the question seems to be who was running the place and who was in charge? And from the hearings so far today and the reports, that doesn't seem to be exactly clear.

SILLIMAN: No it doesn't, Daryn. And even General Taguba's report leaves that in question. He suggests that General Karpinski -- and he said it in his testimony, she obviously could go anywhere she wanted to. She wasn't excluded from any areas. And yet he did say effectively control of the prison was passed to intelligence folks.

That creates an ambiguity, a confusion which obviously filtered down to the guards. We know from elsewhere in this report he suggested they were not wearing uniforms. Discipline had totally broken down. So we know that the prison was in shambles, as far as discipline. And that was part of the reason why these abuses may have taken place.

But the real question is, was there some higher level of sanction, even implicitly? And that's what the senators are trying to get at.

KAGAN: Which makes it interesting of what we're going to see happen next week, the first court-martial taking place coming up.

One of the prison guards, a man trained as a truck mechanic, who found himself as a prison guard in Iraq, it makes you wonder was that person responsible or do you go all the way up the chain of command to hold somebody responsible?

SILLIMAN: Daryn, i think that first court-martial is supposedly of the young sergeant who was taking the pictures. And from what we're hearing, he may be pleading to the case and he may be used in testimony against some of the others that were perhaps more directly involved.

So I'm not sure we're going to learn that much about the facts of the abuse from this first court-martial. Although obviously the Army was very eager to move on quickly to get the judicial process going, the whole world is expecting that.

But, again, the focus of attention right now is properly on these hearings and what's being developed in the testimony.

KAGAN: We'll have you sit tight and continue to listen in with us. Professor Scott Silliman from Duke University. Much more ahead with the professor. Also more hearings a head.

Right now, we pause and take a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We're going to continue to monitor the testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, including testimony from Major General Antonio Taguba, who authored the initial report at the alleged abuses at the Abu Ghraib Prison near Baghdad.

Meanwhile, speaking of Baghdad, it has been a rough day in Iraq. Another truck convoy attacked.

For more on that, let's go to our Karl Penhaul, standing by in Baghdad -- Karl.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there.

Yes, U.S. officials have told us that a 21-truck convoy traveling from Jordan through -- to Baghdad, was attacked on the main highway that runs east to west here in Iraq. The convoy was apparently attacked fairly close to the border, near the town of Ar Rutbah (ph). So far, though, no word on how many trucks may have been destroyed in that and how many casualties there may have been.

The U.S. official telling, though, nevertheless telling us that there were a number of personnel missing. We do understand that it was civilian personnel traveling on that convoy. Not sure at this whether there was a military escort with those trucks.

Now in other violence, also in other parts of Iraq, in the northern city of Kirkuk, a bomb exploded this morning in one of the crowded marketplaces in a Kurdish neighborhood in Kirkuk. Obviously, a mainly Kurdish city, but nevertheless, there are members of other ethnic groups also living there. But this bomb, as I say, exploding in a Kurdish neighborhood. Three people died in that incident, all civilians, we're told. Twenty two others were wounded. Some of those seriously. Again, so far, no word on who may have been behind that bombing.

And then on another issue affecting international personnel here in the country, the Russians again, Russian civilian contractors again the target of killers and kidnappers. Late last night, we understand they were traveling south from Baghdad and attackers closed in on their truck. Two Russians, we're told, have been kidnapped. One was killed in that attack -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Karl, just a little bit more information on this truck convoy that was attacked, is it not run by the same company, Kellogg Brown & Root, that was the same company that Tommy Hamill, the former U.S. hostage, was working for when he was taken into custody.

PENHAUL: Information has been a little bit sketchy so far. We are re told that it may be a subsidiary of KBR, the company you referred to, not directly run by KBR itself, though, the U.S. official has told us. They've also said we'll hold off on giving the confirmed name yet. They think they know who the convoy was being run by, and definitely say they do believe it was a subsidiary of KBR.

But again, whether a KBR convoy or any other kind of civilian or military convoy on this road that lead east to west from -- between Baghdad and the Jordanian border, repeated attacks there. Those attacks, though, did drop out of the limelight. They were very much in the news about three weeks ago, you may remember, along with hostage-taking incidents, but then were superseded by other military events on the ground and also other kind of other political and prisoner scandal as well -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Karl Penhaul in Baghdad. Karl, thank you for that.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com