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CNN Live Today

Discussion with Professor Scott Silliman

Aired May 11, 2004 - 11:56   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: For much of the morning, we've been listening to testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee. We'll continue to do that.
Right now, we want a chance to bring back in Scott Silliman, professor at Duke University, former Air Force attorney.

Scott, you've been listening in. It seems the more and more testimony we hear and the question asked of how did this all happen, how did these abuses happen at Abu Ghraib prison, the testimony from Major General Antonio Taguba, it seems to be this is systemic and there was a lack of proper leadership. So how is that going to affect the court-martials that begin to take place next week of the soldiers who've have seen taking the pictures appearing in the pictures with the abuse?

SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE UNIVERSITY: It's not going to be a defense to those that are being court-martialed, simply because if they knew, or if they were people of ordinary intelligence and should have known that what they were being asked to do by the military intelligence folks or civilian contractors or CIA agents, was illegal, if they should have known it was illegal, then they can be convicted. It is no defense. It may be mitigation and soften the punishment, but it is no defense to the charges.

KAGAN: So it's not a defense to simply say, I was simply following orders?

SILLIMAN: Well, no it's not, and that was established way back in the Nuremburg tribunals after World War II. It's a matter of mitigation. But again, if they should have known, and several of these Reservists were correction officers in their civilian capacity, so this type of behavior depicted in the pictures clearly was way outside the bounds of any lawful conduct.

KAGAN: And in the couple of seconds we have left, what's the most interesting nugget you've heard this morning in the testimony so far?

SILLIMAN: Daryn, I think the key is the "Gitmo-ization" principle. General Miller's recommendation, remember, Secretary Cambone said that you can have more coercive techniques used for high- value assets. Senator Levin asked about Secretary Rumsfeld's comment about in Iraq, did the Geneva Conventions apply? And Secretary Rumsfeld was a little squishy on this.

It seems like what might have happened on this, General Miller's recommendation that the techniques at Guantanamo Bay be used as an example in Iraq, those were for high-value targets, more coercive techniques. If, in fact, those were implemented, whether by design or inadvertence in Iraq, in Abu Ghraib, that could be one of the causes for the abuses we've seen.

KAGAN: And we'll be listening in to more. Scott Silliman, from Duke University. Scott, thank you, always great to have you along. That's going to do it for me. The testimony, though, will continue with the Senate Armed Services Committee.

I'm Daryn Kagan. Wolf Blitzer take over our coverage now from Washington, D.C.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 11, 2004 - 11:56   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: For much of the morning, we've been listening to testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee. We'll continue to do that.
Right now, we want a chance to bring back in Scott Silliman, professor at Duke University, former Air Force attorney.

Scott, you've been listening in. It seems the more and more testimony we hear and the question asked of how did this all happen, how did these abuses happen at Abu Ghraib prison, the testimony from Major General Antonio Taguba, it seems to be this is systemic and there was a lack of proper leadership. So how is that going to affect the court-martials that begin to take place next week of the soldiers who've have seen taking the pictures appearing in the pictures with the abuse?

SCOTT SILLIMAN, DUKE UNIVERSITY: It's not going to be a defense to those that are being court-martialed, simply because if they knew, or if they were people of ordinary intelligence and should have known that what they were being asked to do by the military intelligence folks or civilian contractors or CIA agents, was illegal, if they should have known it was illegal, then they can be convicted. It is no defense. It may be mitigation and soften the punishment, but it is no defense to the charges.

KAGAN: So it's not a defense to simply say, I was simply following orders?

SILLIMAN: Well, no it's not, and that was established way back in the Nuremburg tribunals after World War II. It's a matter of mitigation. But again, if they should have known, and several of these Reservists were correction officers in their civilian capacity, so this type of behavior depicted in the pictures clearly was way outside the bounds of any lawful conduct.

KAGAN: And in the couple of seconds we have left, what's the most interesting nugget you've heard this morning in the testimony so far?

SILLIMAN: Daryn, I think the key is the "Gitmo-ization" principle. General Miller's recommendation, remember, Secretary Cambone said that you can have more coercive techniques used for high- value assets. Senator Levin asked about Secretary Rumsfeld's comment about in Iraq, did the Geneva Conventions apply? And Secretary Rumsfeld was a little squishy on this.

It seems like what might have happened on this, General Miller's recommendation that the techniques at Guantanamo Bay be used as an example in Iraq, those were for high-value targets, more coercive techniques. If, in fact, those were implemented, whether by design or inadvertence in Iraq, in Abu Ghraib, that could be one of the causes for the abuses we've seen.

KAGAN: And we'll be listening in to more. Scott Silliman, from Duke University. Scott, thank you, always great to have you along. That's going to do it for me. The testimony, though, will continue with the Senate Armed Services Committee.

I'm Daryn Kagan. Wolf Blitzer take over our coverage now from Washington, D.C.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com