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American Morning
Donald Rumsfeld's Surprise Visit to Baghdad; A Friend of Nicholas Berg's Family Discusses How Community is Reacting
Aired May 13, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody.
Some new pictures to show you out of Baghdad. This, of course, is the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, who has arrived in Baghdad. You're looking at some of the first pictures of that. Now, the secretary of defense is traveling with the chairman of the joint chiefs, General Richard Myers. And they've been traveling, also, with some reports, a 15 hour flight, actually, from the United States over to Baghdad, taking some questions from reporters, not only about the Iraqi prisoners scandal but other questions, as well. And we're going to bring some of those answers to you.
We don't have audio here and we're going to effort that and bring that to you, turn it around as soon as we get it and bring that to you when we get an opportunity.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: In the meantime, straight away to Baghdad and Karl Penhaul, watching this trip for us -- and, Karl, how much will this trip get credit or attention in the Iraqi media there for the Iraqi people?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we understand, Bill, that some members of the Iraqi media, the Arab broadcasters, may be taking part in the coverage of Donald Rumsfeld's visit. And so I think that if that is the case, then it will be a key element of this trip, so that Donald Rumsfeld can get his message out there once again to both the Iraqi public and to the Arab world on a number of issues regarding the coalition occupation of Iraq and probably specifically on the prisoner abuse scandal.
Now, obviously the details of Donald Rumsfeld's agenda are being kept tightly under wraps for security reasons. But what Pentagon officials have told us so far is that Rumsfeld will be meeting with U.S. military commanders in the field. He will be receiving updates on the prisoner abuse issue and that he will also be meeting ordinary troops to pat them on the back, to shake their hands and to try and boost morale a little in these tough times -- Bill.
HEMMER: Karl Penhaul reporting live in Baghdad.
We should point out this is the fifth trip to Iraq for the defense secretary, but none has been with the anticipation this one has.
Earlier on the plane, as Karl is pointing out, comments to reporters, saying he's not here to throw water on the fire or the flames that surrounds the prison abuse scandal, but nonetheless, we should get reaction today during a question and answer session there in Baghdad.
More now with Soledad across the room.
O'BRIEN: All right, Bill, thanks.
We should mention that we're going to continue to watch these pictures and bring them to you as they come into CNN this morning.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's arrival in Iraq really could hardly come at a more sensitive time. The images of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated and abused by American soldiers has stirred anger in the Arab world and led to lots of calls for Secretary Rumsfeld to, in fact, resign.
Fawaz Gerges is a professor of international affairs and Middle Eastern studies at Sarah Lawrence College.
He joins us this morning.
And we were watching some of these pictures and we saw Secretary Rumsfeld and have heard reports that he was taking questions from some of the reporters who traveled with him.
FAWAZ GERGES, MIDEAST STUDIES PROFESSOR, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Yes.
O'BRIEN: And he said, apparently, that trip is not, in fact, to pour water, I think is the word.
GERGES: Yes.
O'BRIEN: This is some of those pictures, I should mention -- on the flames of this scandal.
Give me a sense of how you think this visit will be interpreted by the Arabs.
GERGES: I think, Soledad, one point must be made very clear -- there is no magical wand that could wipe out the stains of the scandal of the Iraqi prisoners. I think the visit is a welcome step, but I don't think it on its own will likely put to rest Iraqi suspicions of what happened and who's responsible for the scandal itself.
O'BRIEN: How far does this visit go?
Now we're looking at pictures of the Secretary arriving in Baghdad and coming off the plane. And he's apparently meeting with not only top military brass, also enlisted folks, as well.
How far does it go? If it doesn't, you know, actually put the scandal to rest -- and I don't think anybody really has suggested that it would -- what kind of value will it have?
GERGES: I think what we need to understand, Soledad, words and gestures are important symbolically. But Iraqi commentators and Arab commentators have been calling, have stressed the need for concrete actions as opposed just to words, not just Iraqis, Soledad, even many Americans, many Americans, not just Iraqis in whose name those terrible crimes were committed, have demanded accountability. And obviously, obviously it's not enough to just hold a few rogue American soldiers and officers accountable for the crimes, as the administration seems to be doing.
I think what we need to understand, Soledad, here, is that the crisis itself reflects a bigger moral and political failure on the part of our leadership. And in this particular sense, it seems to me the administration has rejected calls for really holding some of its members accountable and it's trying to, I think, weather the storm of public opinion at home and abroad.
So, yes, the visit is a welcome step. I think it's a step in the right direction. I think it's a very small step. And I would argue, too, that tomorrow, in tomorrow's newspapers in Iraq and throughout the Arab world, leading commentators will likely dismiss the visit as a propaganda gesture and once again call on President Bush to hold the Secretary responsible and accountable for the crisis.
What we need to understand here, Soledad, of most American officials, Secretary Rumsfeld is the least trusted by Iraqis. His aggressive style, his perceived arrogance has not endeared him to Iraqis and Arabs. And this is why I think what we need to understand, we need to contextualize the visit in the sense that Iraqis are deeply suspicious of our secretary of defense. In fact, one of the major repercussions of the scandal is the further loss of trust on the part of Iraqis of the U.S.-led occupation.
And the big question is how to you repair the bridges of trust between Iraqis and the United States?
O'BRIEN: Before we get to that question, though, I have another question I want to ask.
We're looking at the Secretary taking some questions from some of the reporters who were traveling with him on this long flight over to Baghdad. He said, apparently, in some of these interviews, that he felt that the remaining pictures of the prisoners being abused should be released. He said he was fine with that, that there was no one, and no legal advisers that agreed with him and so that he didn't think that that was going to happen. But if you asked him, he thought they should be released.
I'm curious to know where you stand in that?
Do you think the pictures should be released?
There are some who say they're going to come out anyway.
GERGES: Yes. Soledad, you said what can we do in order to begin the process of healing, in order to repair the breaches of trust between Iraqis and the United States? I think transparency and accountability are the most important aspects. And this is why it's essential to release the pictures, to show Iraqis and Americans, we, as Americans, and the world, that we are being transparent, that we are -- we would like to put this spectacle -- even though, even though that some of these terrible, horrifying pictures will likely inflame public opinion and also, Soledad, will likely play into the hands of militants of all persuasions and all those forces who are opposed to American foreign policies to fan anti-Americanism.
O'BRIEN: All right, let me stop you there, because I want to play exactly specifically what the Secretary had to say. And I've got to tell you, I'm not quite sure of the quality because, of course, they got on the plane and it's supposed to be a little bit noisy.
So let's listen and see if we can actually hear what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: My understanding of the Geneva Convention is that it is inappropriate, at the minimum, to present images of prisoners or detainees in positions that can be considered...
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, I would like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) discuss specific cases.
RUMSFELD: I haven't.
QUESTION: Right.
QUESTION: He may be asking you a question, do you think that specific acts that you've seen constitute violations?
QUESTION: Right.
RUMSFELD: I was going to answer it generically.
QUESTION: All right.
RUMSFELD: Which is what I think I have to do, given the fact that these investigations are still going on. What's the word? Demeaning or images that...
QUESTION: Public (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
RUMSFELD: Public...
QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) curiosity or...
RUMSFELD: Curiosity. Those are the words, public curiosity or ridicule. And if you'll recall, we were concerned when the photographs in Guantanamo Bay were taken and presented. So we've had a policy in the government to avoid doing, taking, presenting images that could be considered humiliating or putting a person up to public ridicule. (END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: That's Secretary Rumsfeld. He was talking about the photos of alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib Prison. And he was talking specifically about the wording of the Geneva Convention and why he thought that the lawyers were advising them, apparently, that these photos should not be released. In addition to that, of course, investigations are under way.
Here's also what the Secretary had to say about why these photos will not be released to the public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: We have, we do not know if it's everything. We have to assume it is not in life, with digital cameras and video cameras and all kinds of things that exist. So we assume we don't have all there is. We did not take steps to release any of it to the public for the -- for several reasons. One is privacy issues. There are images in these disks that are of U.S. military personnel and have nothing to do with detainees. One would think that those would bring into play privacy issues.
Second, there's the Geneva Convention issues about the images that do involve detainees.
As a result, we've decided that it's important that the appropriate people in the government be aware of what's on those disks and certainly the prosecution and investigations that are taking place have to have access to that type of information.
But at the present time, there is, to my knowledge, no one has resolved -- as far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy to release them all to the public and to get it behind us. But at the present time, I don't know anyone in the legal shop in any element of the government that's recommending that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: That's Secretary Rumsfeld. He was talking about some of the considerations that went into whether or not these photos should be released to the public and he said that there are privacy issues, not only, Professor Gerges, of U.S. soldiers, but also the Iraqis, as well.
GERGES: Yes.
O'BRIEN: And, also, he said that no one was advising him from a legal standpoint that this would be something smart to do. So that goes completely against what your advice would be to the Iraqi world of let 'em out, let everybody know what happened.
GERGES: Several points here. I think it's likely, Soledad, we know the American media, that some of the pictures will gradually be released to the public. It's a matter of time. The second point is that more important than the releasing the pictures, the big question, as I said, accountability and transparency, is to find out how extensive, how pervasive and how long the abuses of the Iraqi prisoners started.
And as the third point about the Geneva Conventions. Soledad, are we convinced that the Geneva Conventions had not already been abused as a result of what has happened to -- what happened to Iraqi prisoners? And this is why I think the legal issues now are screaming at all of us. They are on the table. And this is why it's essential, I would argue, that for the sake of accountability, transparency, beginning the process of healing, that the pictures be put in the hands of the American people, the American people, so the American people and, of course, for Iraqis and world public opinion. Because the legal ramifications, I think, the pictures have already been flushed out as a result of releasing some of the pictures.
O'BRIEN: Professor Fawaz Gerges, joining us, as always.
Thank you very much for your insight.
We sure appreciate it.
GERGES: It's my pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: We want to get to our other top stories at this hour.
Twelve minutes past the hour of eight o'clock here in New York.
U.S. forces in Karbala in Iraq engage in a fierce battle with supporters of the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Witnesses say smoke is rising over the city's mosque, considered one of the Shiites' most sacred shrines. News agencies reporting that insurgents attacked an American tank with rocket propelled grenades. No word on the casualties at this moment.
Israel has launched new missile strikes in Gaza. Palestinian sources say two Israeli helicopter attacks leaving at least 10 Palestinians dead near a refugee camp. This week's violence in Gaza claiming the lives of at least 33 Palestinians and at least 11 Israelis.
Here in the U.S., former Enron employees could get back at least $66 million in lost pension funds, according to Labor Secretary Elaine Chao. The settlement is part of a billion dollar class action lawsuit against Enron's human resource staff and company directors. Money for the claim would come from an $85 million insurance policy. The deal still needs to be approved in court.
Andy has more on this in our coming hour here.
A thrilling first for Iraqis. The national soccer team beat Saudi Arabia last night 3-1. They now earn a trip to the 2004 Olympic Summer Games in Athens, Greece. It's the first time in Iraq's history its soccer team will compete in the Summer Games. Iraq will send about 30 athletes, we are told, to the Summer Olympics in Athens. They needed a whole lot of things to happen and fall in their favor and they have. A great story to talk about today.
Tornado season has been in full swing this week in the South and Midwest. More videotape to show you. A twister in south central Kansas yesterday damaged three homes, destroyed a few garages, shattered windows, blowing off rooftops. It tore through the town of Attica near the border with Oklahoma. No one, luckily, was injured as a result of that tornado. More videotape every day, huh?
O'BRIEN: Yes.
HEMMER: Dramatic stuff to watch, too.
O'BRIEN: But as Chad has said, this is only the beginning. And I think he was saying that it's only going to move eastward 150 miles, right, Chad? I mean then we see the same thing each and every day?
CHAD MYERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Soledad.
This whole storm, the whole trough to our west, has just slid a little bit farther to the east. So the severe weather is going to be Oklahoma City, Tulsa, right on up into Kansas City. And even about an hour ago, we had a tornado warning for College Station and Bryan, Texas, down here to the north of Houston. That storm has now since stopped rotating, but still some very strong weather across parts of south-south central Texas already this morning.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, much to talk about about this prison abuse scandal.
HEMMER: We'll talk with a retired Army major about interrogation tactics and whether or not what happened at Abu Ghraib went far beyond standard practice.
O'BRIEN: Also, new questions about the case of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian who was beheaded by Islamic militants. Did the FBI warn him to get out of Iraq and offer him safe passage?
HEMMER: Also, on a much different note, time to make the donuts at Wal-Mart. The newest front in those wars in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: New questions this morning about the case of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian beheaded by Islamic militants. Did the FBI warn him to get out of Iraq and offer him safe passage? Or did the government delay his departure, and, as the family claims, contribute to his death?
Berg's family will hold a private memorial tomorrow in his hometown of Westchester, Pennsylvania. Bruce Hauser is a neighbor and a friend of the Bergs and joins us once again from Westchester.
Nice to see you, Mr. Hauser.
And, again, I thank you for being with us, certainly at such a difficult time.
So we certainly appreciate it.
Let's talk a little bit about this memorial service. The family has said it's going to be private.
Do you know what it's going to entail?
BRUCE HAUSER, BERG FAMILY FRIEND: At this time I don't know. I spoke with one of the family members very early this morning and just got a minimal amount of information. I'm going to meet with the family probably after I leave this taping and I want to get more information. The family has really tried to move on. They go out and do some bike riding, some jogging. The mother tries to get away from the house as much as she can.
But I do know that there is a memorial service and that the friends and family of Nicholas Berg will be asked to attend. And I'm sure it's going to be a great service, one of the efforts that will help the family move on.
O'BRIEN: Nicholas is -- Nicholas Berg's father claimed that it was, in fact, the government's delay, that in holding Berg they cost him time, and thereby cost him his life.
Do you, is he saying in some way that he blames the U.S. government for the murder of his son?
HAUSER: Well, you have to understand where the parents are coming from; also, the siblings. They've lost their brother. Not only have they lost their brother, it's the way they lost their brother. Through communications with Nick, they were under the impression that once he was released from the American government, that he would be coming home. That's the question that a lot of people in the neighborhood are asking. If he were ever in the government's hands, why didn't the government assist him and get him out of Iraq?
O'BRIEN: The family claims also that Nicholas was held in U.S. government custody. The Pentagon or U.S. authorities have now said that, in fact, that wasn't the case, that he was only in Iraqi custody.
Why do you think this is a relevant question at this point? And do you think it is -- do you think it matters?
HAUSER: I think it does matter. I think that in their communications with Nicholas, Nicholas had no reason to misinform his parents. His parents have no reason to lie about the government or to the government. And I truly believe at one time Nicholas was in the hands of the American government.
You have to ask yourself this question -- if he was not in the hands of the American government, why did the FBI come to the home of Mr. and Mrs. Berg and inform them that they had talked to Nicholas on several occasions when he was in captivity? Also, why would the Berg family file a lawsuit against Donald Rumsfeld if he was not in the American government's hands?
O'BRIEN: Good questions.
The government now says that they offered safe passage out of the country to Nicholas Berg and that, in fact, he refused.
What do you know about that?
HAUSER: All I can say about Nick Berg is I've known him from the time he was about four years old. The Nicholas Berg I know, if he had the opportunity to leave that country after being told it was not safe for him to be there, the opportunity to get back home to see his mother, father and his sister and brother, he would have never have passed that by. Nick loves his family and in no way would he have given up that possibility of coming home to stay there and keep his life in danger.
O'BRIEN: I know another candlelight vigil was held in the community last night.
What else are you all doing as friends and neighbors to the Bergs to bring some closure to what I have to imagine is going to be impossible, really, to ever get over?
HAUSER: Well, I've talked to many of the people in the neighborhood. They're saddened. They really want to come to the Bergs' aid and comfort them. But you have to realize, this is a large community. I've gotten calls from all over the United States and the world. People offering their condolences. I've even gotten calls from people right here in the neighborhood.
I'm looking at a home as we speak, I got a call last night from the Trauma (ph) family. This is one family who has spoken to many people in the neighborhood and want to set up some type of fund, maybe a scholarship fund, in the name of Nicholas Berg.
So this is one of the efforts that we're going to use in helping these people in this community not to forget the Nick Berg with know and love.
O'BRIEN: It must be very comforting for the family for folks in the community to come forward like that.
HAUSER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Bruce Hauser, thank you so much for your time.
And, again, please pass along to the family our condolences again, as well. HAUSER: Thank you, Soledad.
Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: In a moment, Secretary Rumsfeld's surprise visit in Baghdad today -- what's his message there?
And some law makers speaking out on whether or not to release those new images from that prison, Abu Ghraib, in a moment here, back after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back, everybody.
The Question of the Day and Jack Cafferty.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
Mistreatment of prisoners during wartime is nothing new. It's happened in every war that's ever been fought.
This time, though, the pictures have been splashed all over newspapers and TV screens around the world. And there's another maybe not so subtle difference. The government, our government, has argued that the war on terrorism sometimes requires the suspension of civil liberties.
If it's OK to change the rules for us here at home, why shouldn't it be OK to do the same thing where the enemy is concerned?
The question this morning is this: what's inappropriate interrogation technique in time of war?
Bill writes this: "Is anyone so naive as to believe that al Qaeda would ever follow the Geneva Convention? If sticking a gun in a terrorist's face can save a single American life, then I'm all for it. They'll kill and torture us no matter what we do."
Terry in Lafayette, Louisiana: "I watched the video of the beheading of Nicholas Berg last night. After you watch it, you tell me what should be done in the prisons. I think they should all be hanged."
Bill in Brooklyn, New York writes: "Inappropriate? Inappropriate is holding yourself out to the world as a model of morality and individual rights and yet engaging in the sort of conduct we went to Iraq to put an end to, at least according to the president. It's time we found different means of interrogation."
Eric in Medina, Ohio: "What's inappropriate? That which is contrary to the Geneva Convention, which we, as a country, helped to craft after WWII. The Convention clearly bans torture or abuse of the kind shown in the Abu Ghraib pictures. We set the standards, we should live up to them."
And finally, Jim writes this: "Sometimes harsh measures are needed to gain this information. I worked at ground zero after September 11 and I saw the bodies and the body parts of my countrymen and women. I have no mercy for these zealots."
Am@cnn.com.
HEMMER: A lot of the guys on our staff watched that video yesterday morning and to a man they all said when it was done they wished they would not have done that. It was that gruesome.
CAFFERTY: Wished they would not have watched it, you mean?
HEMMER: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I knew that going in I wasn't going to watch that video clip.
HEMMER: No chance.
CAFFERTY: So why did they?
O'BRIEN: That's a question you'll have to ask.
But, you know, I have a question, too. I think a lot of these e- mails talk about hanging or having no mercy for the zealots. But you hear a lot of these reports coming back after the senators talked about some of the pictures they saw. It was female detainees exposing their breasts, sodomizing -- images, really horrific stuff. And I think the point has to be made that many of those, we're told, in those prisons had been rounded up and actually hadn't been convicted of any crime at this point, although they may be religious zealots and so forth and on so forth.
CAFFERTY: Right.
O'BRIEN: That's what I have to add. I'm ready to move on.
HEMMER: Done deal.
Get a break here.
In a moment, the abuse scandal continues turning a light on some of the military's most secret activities. Details about sy-ops with a former military intel officer in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired May 13, 2004 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody.
Some new pictures to show you out of Baghdad. This, of course, is the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, who has arrived in Baghdad. You're looking at some of the first pictures of that. Now, the secretary of defense is traveling with the chairman of the joint chiefs, General Richard Myers. And they've been traveling, also, with some reports, a 15 hour flight, actually, from the United States over to Baghdad, taking some questions from reporters, not only about the Iraqi prisoners scandal but other questions, as well. And we're going to bring some of those answers to you.
We don't have audio here and we're going to effort that and bring that to you, turn it around as soon as we get it and bring that to you when we get an opportunity.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: In the meantime, straight away to Baghdad and Karl Penhaul, watching this trip for us -- and, Karl, how much will this trip get credit or attention in the Iraqi media there for the Iraqi people?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we understand, Bill, that some members of the Iraqi media, the Arab broadcasters, may be taking part in the coverage of Donald Rumsfeld's visit. And so I think that if that is the case, then it will be a key element of this trip, so that Donald Rumsfeld can get his message out there once again to both the Iraqi public and to the Arab world on a number of issues regarding the coalition occupation of Iraq and probably specifically on the prisoner abuse scandal.
Now, obviously the details of Donald Rumsfeld's agenda are being kept tightly under wraps for security reasons. But what Pentagon officials have told us so far is that Rumsfeld will be meeting with U.S. military commanders in the field. He will be receiving updates on the prisoner abuse issue and that he will also be meeting ordinary troops to pat them on the back, to shake their hands and to try and boost morale a little in these tough times -- Bill.
HEMMER: Karl Penhaul reporting live in Baghdad.
We should point out this is the fifth trip to Iraq for the defense secretary, but none has been with the anticipation this one has.
Earlier on the plane, as Karl is pointing out, comments to reporters, saying he's not here to throw water on the fire or the flames that surrounds the prison abuse scandal, but nonetheless, we should get reaction today during a question and answer session there in Baghdad.
More now with Soledad across the room.
O'BRIEN: All right, Bill, thanks.
We should mention that we're going to continue to watch these pictures and bring them to you as they come into CNN this morning.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's arrival in Iraq really could hardly come at a more sensitive time. The images of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated and abused by American soldiers has stirred anger in the Arab world and led to lots of calls for Secretary Rumsfeld to, in fact, resign.
Fawaz Gerges is a professor of international affairs and Middle Eastern studies at Sarah Lawrence College.
He joins us this morning.
And we were watching some of these pictures and we saw Secretary Rumsfeld and have heard reports that he was taking questions from some of the reporters who traveled with him.
FAWAZ GERGES, MIDEAST STUDIES PROFESSOR, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Yes.
O'BRIEN: And he said, apparently, that trip is not, in fact, to pour water, I think is the word.
GERGES: Yes.
O'BRIEN: This is some of those pictures, I should mention -- on the flames of this scandal.
Give me a sense of how you think this visit will be interpreted by the Arabs.
GERGES: I think, Soledad, one point must be made very clear -- there is no magical wand that could wipe out the stains of the scandal of the Iraqi prisoners. I think the visit is a welcome step, but I don't think it on its own will likely put to rest Iraqi suspicions of what happened and who's responsible for the scandal itself.
O'BRIEN: How far does this visit go?
Now we're looking at pictures of the Secretary arriving in Baghdad and coming off the plane. And he's apparently meeting with not only top military brass, also enlisted folks, as well.
How far does it go? If it doesn't, you know, actually put the scandal to rest -- and I don't think anybody really has suggested that it would -- what kind of value will it have?
GERGES: I think what we need to understand, Soledad, words and gestures are important symbolically. But Iraqi commentators and Arab commentators have been calling, have stressed the need for concrete actions as opposed just to words, not just Iraqis, Soledad, even many Americans, many Americans, not just Iraqis in whose name those terrible crimes were committed, have demanded accountability. And obviously, obviously it's not enough to just hold a few rogue American soldiers and officers accountable for the crimes, as the administration seems to be doing.
I think what we need to understand, Soledad, here, is that the crisis itself reflects a bigger moral and political failure on the part of our leadership. And in this particular sense, it seems to me the administration has rejected calls for really holding some of its members accountable and it's trying to, I think, weather the storm of public opinion at home and abroad.
So, yes, the visit is a welcome step. I think it's a step in the right direction. I think it's a very small step. And I would argue, too, that tomorrow, in tomorrow's newspapers in Iraq and throughout the Arab world, leading commentators will likely dismiss the visit as a propaganda gesture and once again call on President Bush to hold the Secretary responsible and accountable for the crisis.
What we need to understand here, Soledad, of most American officials, Secretary Rumsfeld is the least trusted by Iraqis. His aggressive style, his perceived arrogance has not endeared him to Iraqis and Arabs. And this is why I think what we need to understand, we need to contextualize the visit in the sense that Iraqis are deeply suspicious of our secretary of defense. In fact, one of the major repercussions of the scandal is the further loss of trust on the part of Iraqis of the U.S.-led occupation.
And the big question is how to you repair the bridges of trust between Iraqis and the United States?
O'BRIEN: Before we get to that question, though, I have another question I want to ask.
We're looking at the Secretary taking some questions from some of the reporters who were traveling with him on this long flight over to Baghdad. He said, apparently, in some of these interviews, that he felt that the remaining pictures of the prisoners being abused should be released. He said he was fine with that, that there was no one, and no legal advisers that agreed with him and so that he didn't think that that was going to happen. But if you asked him, he thought they should be released.
I'm curious to know where you stand in that?
Do you think the pictures should be released?
There are some who say they're going to come out anyway.
GERGES: Yes. Soledad, you said what can we do in order to begin the process of healing, in order to repair the breaches of trust between Iraqis and the United States? I think transparency and accountability are the most important aspects. And this is why it's essential to release the pictures, to show Iraqis and Americans, we, as Americans, and the world, that we are being transparent, that we are -- we would like to put this spectacle -- even though, even though that some of these terrible, horrifying pictures will likely inflame public opinion and also, Soledad, will likely play into the hands of militants of all persuasions and all those forces who are opposed to American foreign policies to fan anti-Americanism.
O'BRIEN: All right, let me stop you there, because I want to play exactly specifically what the Secretary had to say. And I've got to tell you, I'm not quite sure of the quality because, of course, they got on the plane and it's supposed to be a little bit noisy.
So let's listen and see if we can actually hear what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: My understanding of the Geneva Convention is that it is inappropriate, at the minimum, to present images of prisoners or detainees in positions that can be considered...
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, I would like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) discuss specific cases.
RUMSFELD: I haven't.
QUESTION: Right.
QUESTION: He may be asking you a question, do you think that specific acts that you've seen constitute violations?
QUESTION: Right.
RUMSFELD: I was going to answer it generically.
QUESTION: All right.
RUMSFELD: Which is what I think I have to do, given the fact that these investigations are still going on. What's the word? Demeaning or images that...
QUESTION: Public (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
RUMSFELD: Public...
QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) curiosity or...
RUMSFELD: Curiosity. Those are the words, public curiosity or ridicule. And if you'll recall, we were concerned when the photographs in Guantanamo Bay were taken and presented. So we've had a policy in the government to avoid doing, taking, presenting images that could be considered humiliating or putting a person up to public ridicule. (END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: That's Secretary Rumsfeld. He was talking about the photos of alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib Prison. And he was talking specifically about the wording of the Geneva Convention and why he thought that the lawyers were advising them, apparently, that these photos should not be released. In addition to that, of course, investigations are under way.
Here's also what the Secretary had to say about why these photos will not be released to the public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: We have, we do not know if it's everything. We have to assume it is not in life, with digital cameras and video cameras and all kinds of things that exist. So we assume we don't have all there is. We did not take steps to release any of it to the public for the -- for several reasons. One is privacy issues. There are images in these disks that are of U.S. military personnel and have nothing to do with detainees. One would think that those would bring into play privacy issues.
Second, there's the Geneva Convention issues about the images that do involve detainees.
As a result, we've decided that it's important that the appropriate people in the government be aware of what's on those disks and certainly the prosecution and investigations that are taking place have to have access to that type of information.
But at the present time, there is, to my knowledge, no one has resolved -- as far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy to release them all to the public and to get it behind us. But at the present time, I don't know anyone in the legal shop in any element of the government that's recommending that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: That's Secretary Rumsfeld. He was talking about some of the considerations that went into whether or not these photos should be released to the public and he said that there are privacy issues, not only, Professor Gerges, of U.S. soldiers, but also the Iraqis, as well.
GERGES: Yes.
O'BRIEN: And, also, he said that no one was advising him from a legal standpoint that this would be something smart to do. So that goes completely against what your advice would be to the Iraqi world of let 'em out, let everybody know what happened.
GERGES: Several points here. I think it's likely, Soledad, we know the American media, that some of the pictures will gradually be released to the public. It's a matter of time. The second point is that more important than the releasing the pictures, the big question, as I said, accountability and transparency, is to find out how extensive, how pervasive and how long the abuses of the Iraqi prisoners started.
And as the third point about the Geneva Conventions. Soledad, are we convinced that the Geneva Conventions had not already been abused as a result of what has happened to -- what happened to Iraqi prisoners? And this is why I think the legal issues now are screaming at all of us. They are on the table. And this is why it's essential, I would argue, that for the sake of accountability, transparency, beginning the process of healing, that the pictures be put in the hands of the American people, the American people, so the American people and, of course, for Iraqis and world public opinion. Because the legal ramifications, I think, the pictures have already been flushed out as a result of releasing some of the pictures.
O'BRIEN: Professor Fawaz Gerges, joining us, as always.
Thank you very much for your insight.
We sure appreciate it.
GERGES: It's my pleasure.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: We want to get to our other top stories at this hour.
Twelve minutes past the hour of eight o'clock here in New York.
U.S. forces in Karbala in Iraq engage in a fierce battle with supporters of the Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Witnesses say smoke is rising over the city's mosque, considered one of the Shiites' most sacred shrines. News agencies reporting that insurgents attacked an American tank with rocket propelled grenades. No word on the casualties at this moment.
Israel has launched new missile strikes in Gaza. Palestinian sources say two Israeli helicopter attacks leaving at least 10 Palestinians dead near a refugee camp. This week's violence in Gaza claiming the lives of at least 33 Palestinians and at least 11 Israelis.
Here in the U.S., former Enron employees could get back at least $66 million in lost pension funds, according to Labor Secretary Elaine Chao. The settlement is part of a billion dollar class action lawsuit against Enron's human resource staff and company directors. Money for the claim would come from an $85 million insurance policy. The deal still needs to be approved in court.
Andy has more on this in our coming hour here.
A thrilling first for Iraqis. The national soccer team beat Saudi Arabia last night 3-1. They now earn a trip to the 2004 Olympic Summer Games in Athens, Greece. It's the first time in Iraq's history its soccer team will compete in the Summer Games. Iraq will send about 30 athletes, we are told, to the Summer Olympics in Athens. They needed a whole lot of things to happen and fall in their favor and they have. A great story to talk about today.
Tornado season has been in full swing this week in the South and Midwest. More videotape to show you. A twister in south central Kansas yesterday damaged three homes, destroyed a few garages, shattered windows, blowing off rooftops. It tore through the town of Attica near the border with Oklahoma. No one, luckily, was injured as a result of that tornado. More videotape every day, huh?
O'BRIEN: Yes.
HEMMER: Dramatic stuff to watch, too.
O'BRIEN: But as Chad has said, this is only the beginning. And I think he was saying that it's only going to move eastward 150 miles, right, Chad? I mean then we see the same thing each and every day?
CHAD MYERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly, Soledad.
This whole storm, the whole trough to our west, has just slid a little bit farther to the east. So the severe weather is going to be Oklahoma City, Tulsa, right on up into Kansas City. And even about an hour ago, we had a tornado warning for College Station and Bryan, Texas, down here to the north of Houston. That storm has now since stopped rotating, but still some very strong weather across parts of south-south central Texas already this morning.
(WEATHER REPORT)
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, much to talk about about this prison abuse scandal.
HEMMER: We'll talk with a retired Army major about interrogation tactics and whether or not what happened at Abu Ghraib went far beyond standard practice.
O'BRIEN: Also, new questions about the case of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian who was beheaded by Islamic militants. Did the FBI warn him to get out of Iraq and offer him safe passage?
HEMMER: Also, on a much different note, time to make the donuts at Wal-Mart. The newest front in those wars in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: New questions this morning about the case of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian beheaded by Islamic militants. Did the FBI warn him to get out of Iraq and offer him safe passage? Or did the government delay his departure, and, as the family claims, contribute to his death?
Berg's family will hold a private memorial tomorrow in his hometown of Westchester, Pennsylvania. Bruce Hauser is a neighbor and a friend of the Bergs and joins us once again from Westchester.
Nice to see you, Mr. Hauser.
And, again, I thank you for being with us, certainly at such a difficult time.
So we certainly appreciate it.
Let's talk a little bit about this memorial service. The family has said it's going to be private.
Do you know what it's going to entail?
BRUCE HAUSER, BERG FAMILY FRIEND: At this time I don't know. I spoke with one of the family members very early this morning and just got a minimal amount of information. I'm going to meet with the family probably after I leave this taping and I want to get more information. The family has really tried to move on. They go out and do some bike riding, some jogging. The mother tries to get away from the house as much as she can.
But I do know that there is a memorial service and that the friends and family of Nicholas Berg will be asked to attend. And I'm sure it's going to be a great service, one of the efforts that will help the family move on.
O'BRIEN: Nicholas is -- Nicholas Berg's father claimed that it was, in fact, the government's delay, that in holding Berg they cost him time, and thereby cost him his life.
Do you, is he saying in some way that he blames the U.S. government for the murder of his son?
HAUSER: Well, you have to understand where the parents are coming from; also, the siblings. They've lost their brother. Not only have they lost their brother, it's the way they lost their brother. Through communications with Nick, they were under the impression that once he was released from the American government, that he would be coming home. That's the question that a lot of people in the neighborhood are asking. If he were ever in the government's hands, why didn't the government assist him and get him out of Iraq?
O'BRIEN: The family claims also that Nicholas was held in U.S. government custody. The Pentagon or U.S. authorities have now said that, in fact, that wasn't the case, that he was only in Iraqi custody.
Why do you think this is a relevant question at this point? And do you think it is -- do you think it matters?
HAUSER: I think it does matter. I think that in their communications with Nicholas, Nicholas had no reason to misinform his parents. His parents have no reason to lie about the government or to the government. And I truly believe at one time Nicholas was in the hands of the American government.
You have to ask yourself this question -- if he was not in the hands of the American government, why did the FBI come to the home of Mr. and Mrs. Berg and inform them that they had talked to Nicholas on several occasions when he was in captivity? Also, why would the Berg family file a lawsuit against Donald Rumsfeld if he was not in the American government's hands?
O'BRIEN: Good questions.
The government now says that they offered safe passage out of the country to Nicholas Berg and that, in fact, he refused.
What do you know about that?
HAUSER: All I can say about Nick Berg is I've known him from the time he was about four years old. The Nicholas Berg I know, if he had the opportunity to leave that country after being told it was not safe for him to be there, the opportunity to get back home to see his mother, father and his sister and brother, he would have never have passed that by. Nick loves his family and in no way would he have given up that possibility of coming home to stay there and keep his life in danger.
O'BRIEN: I know another candlelight vigil was held in the community last night.
What else are you all doing as friends and neighbors to the Bergs to bring some closure to what I have to imagine is going to be impossible, really, to ever get over?
HAUSER: Well, I've talked to many of the people in the neighborhood. They're saddened. They really want to come to the Bergs' aid and comfort them. But you have to realize, this is a large community. I've gotten calls from all over the United States and the world. People offering their condolences. I've even gotten calls from people right here in the neighborhood.
I'm looking at a home as we speak, I got a call last night from the Trauma (ph) family. This is one family who has spoken to many people in the neighborhood and want to set up some type of fund, maybe a scholarship fund, in the name of Nicholas Berg.
So this is one of the efforts that we're going to use in helping these people in this community not to forget the Nick Berg with know and love.
O'BRIEN: It must be very comforting for the family for folks in the community to come forward like that.
HAUSER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Bruce Hauser, thank you so much for your time.
And, again, please pass along to the family our condolences again, as well. HAUSER: Thank you, Soledad.
Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: In a moment, Secretary Rumsfeld's surprise visit in Baghdad today -- what's his message there?
And some law makers speaking out on whether or not to release those new images from that prison, Abu Ghraib, in a moment here, back after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back, everybody.
The Question of the Day and Jack Cafferty.
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.
Mistreatment of prisoners during wartime is nothing new. It's happened in every war that's ever been fought.
This time, though, the pictures have been splashed all over newspapers and TV screens around the world. And there's another maybe not so subtle difference. The government, our government, has argued that the war on terrorism sometimes requires the suspension of civil liberties.
If it's OK to change the rules for us here at home, why shouldn't it be OK to do the same thing where the enemy is concerned?
The question this morning is this: what's inappropriate interrogation technique in time of war?
Bill writes this: "Is anyone so naive as to believe that al Qaeda would ever follow the Geneva Convention? If sticking a gun in a terrorist's face can save a single American life, then I'm all for it. They'll kill and torture us no matter what we do."
Terry in Lafayette, Louisiana: "I watched the video of the beheading of Nicholas Berg last night. After you watch it, you tell me what should be done in the prisons. I think they should all be hanged."
Bill in Brooklyn, New York writes: "Inappropriate? Inappropriate is holding yourself out to the world as a model of morality and individual rights and yet engaging in the sort of conduct we went to Iraq to put an end to, at least according to the president. It's time we found different means of interrogation."
Eric in Medina, Ohio: "What's inappropriate? That which is contrary to the Geneva Convention, which we, as a country, helped to craft after WWII. The Convention clearly bans torture or abuse of the kind shown in the Abu Ghraib pictures. We set the standards, we should live up to them."
And finally, Jim writes this: "Sometimes harsh measures are needed to gain this information. I worked at ground zero after September 11 and I saw the bodies and the body parts of my countrymen and women. I have no mercy for these zealots."
Am@cnn.com.
HEMMER: A lot of the guys on our staff watched that video yesterday morning and to a man they all said when it was done they wished they would not have done that. It was that gruesome.
CAFFERTY: Wished they would not have watched it, you mean?
HEMMER: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I knew that going in I wasn't going to watch that video clip.
HEMMER: No chance.
CAFFERTY: So why did they?
O'BRIEN: That's a question you'll have to ask.
But, you know, I have a question, too. I think a lot of these e- mails talk about hanging or having no mercy for the zealots. But you hear a lot of these reports coming back after the senators talked about some of the pictures they saw. It was female detainees exposing their breasts, sodomizing -- images, really horrific stuff. And I think the point has to be made that many of those, we're told, in those prisons had been rounded up and actually hadn't been convicted of any crime at this point, although they may be religious zealots and so forth and on so forth.
CAFFERTY: Right.
O'BRIEN: That's what I have to add. I'm ready to move on.
HEMMER: Done deal.
Get a break here.
In a moment, the abuse scandal continues turning a light on some of the military's most secret activities. Details about sy-ops with a former military intel officer in a moment after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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