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CNN Live Today
Significance of Finding Sarin Shell, Meaning as Security Threat to Troops in Iraq
Aired May 17, 2004 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. announced today that an artillery shell containing a small amount of sarin nerve gas exploded in Baghdad. A couple members of the military explosive team were treated for minor exposure. The shell had apparently been rigged to go off as part of a roadside bomb.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found. The round had been rigged as an IED was which discovered by a U.S. force convoy. A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. It's produced a very small disbursal of agent.
The round was an old binary-type requiring the mixing of two components in separate sections of the cell before the deadly agent is produced. The cell is designed to work after being fired from an artillery piece mixing a disbursal of the agent from such a projectile as an IED is very limited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Officials say the sarin shell was an old type that Saddam's regime declared it had destroyed after the Gulf War.
Let's bring in our security analyst Ken Robinson now. Joining us from Washington, D.C. Ken, good morning.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Hi. Good morning.
KAGAN: Let's talk about the significance of finding this type of shell and what that means as a security threat to the troops in Iraq.
ROBINSON: Well, it's a significant security threat that was an assumption that was made prior to the start of the battle for Baghdad that the potential existed that this might occur. And it's been considered ever since.
What we don't know is whether this round that was used is from the '89 time period, the Iran-Iraq War, whether it is from the first Gulf War, rounds which were moved and hidden. Or whether it is something even more sinister, potentially from some other border, brought in specifically for attacks against the coalition. KAGAN: Even if it's left over, the question has to be how many of these types of artilleries are out there.
ROBINSON: Well, that's exactly right. That was the whole purpose behind the 1998 efforts by the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq, because the Iraqi full and final complete disclosures of their destruction of these rounds was never full, final, or complete.
And the international community was struggling to make a difference between what they said they destroyed and what the production records and the storage records said. And that delta between these two disconnects is why the aggressiveness of the international community and the United States on whether they were still hiding WMD.
KAGAN: It would appear the way this particular artillery shell was handled that perhaps the people who are handling didn't really realize what they had because they did have some minor exposure. What does this mean for how the troops have to change what they're doing out in the field?
ROBINSON: Well, it certainly means that their Military Operational Preparedness Posture, what they call MOPP, will have to be upgraded now that this threat is real and live on the battlefield.
The issue that will come up first for their exposures is going to be a test of the agent purity, the agent purity of this round, because these rounds, when they're filled, they degrade. They get weaker with every day that goes by, especially if they're stored in heat and in the sun.
And so the issue of agent purity will tell us here in the news business and will tell the government what type of sarin batch this came from. They actually have samples of batches that were produced during the war, and they almost are like fingerprints. They may be able to distinguish where it came from specifically.
KAGAN: Ken Robinson with more information on the release of the sarin gas in this one artillery shell in Iraq. Thank you.
Both President Bush and his Democratic rival Senator John Kerry are marking the 50th anniversary of the historic decision that ended racial segregation in America's schools. Our Judy Woodruff is with us now. She is in Washington with more on that. Judy, good morning.
WOODRUFF: Good morning, Daryn. And thank you very much.
Well, the presidential campaign trail leads through Topeka, Kansas today where the focus is on the 50th anniversary of the Supreme Court's Brown vs. Board of Education ruling. A short time ago Senator John Kerry spoke at a ceremony marking anniversary. He says while the ruling officially ended segregation, its promise is still unmet. And he took aim at President Bush and his No Child Left Behind Act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is not a political statement, it's a matter of common sense. And it is a matter of truth to say to America, you cannot promise no child left behind and then pursue policies that leave millions of children behind every single day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: President Bush is heading to Topeka right now to also participate in ceremonies marking the anniversary of the historic decision. The president will help dedicate the former Monroe Elementary School as a national historic site. CNN will have live coverage of the president's comments at 2:00 p.m. Eastern.
A new "Newsweek" poll shows President Bush's approval rating has dropped to 42 percent, a low point for his presidency. But the poll shows the race for the White House still very close with John Kerry at 46 percent and Bush at 45 percent. With independent Ralph Nader added to the mix, Kerry still holds a one-point lead.
Teamsters President James Hoffa is lobbying for Dick Gephardt to be Kerry's running mate on the Democratic ticket. Hoffa says he told Kerry that Gephardt has the record on trade and would be a great partner for Kerry.
Ohio Democrats have chosen talk show host Jerry Springer to be a delegate at the Democratic Convention in Boston this summer. He was named Democrat of the Year by the state party this weekend. Springer is no stranger to politics. He served as the mayor of Cincinnati before hosting his own television show.
A day for the history books in more ways than one. Gay marriages are now legal in Massachusetts. Our Bill Schneider will look at how much of an issue gay marriage will be in the race for the White House.
Plus, 50 years to the day after the historic civil rights case, our Bruce Morton will take a look at Brown vs. Board of Education. How did this historical, controversial case help shape America?
All this and more when I go "INSIDE POLITICS" at 3:30 p.m. Eastern, 12:30 Pacific.
Right now back to Daryn in Atlanta.
KAGAN: Thank you, Judy. Hey, what are you guys paying for gas up there in the D.C. area?
WOODRUFF: A little over $2.
KAGAN: Oh. Brutal. We're going to talk about high gas prices just ahead -- thank you, Judy -- taking a bite out of your wallet. Why you can't avoid the high cost of gas, even if you're avoiding the pump. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: All right. You already know it's costing you more and more every time you fill up at the gas pump, but the gas station isn't the only place that you are paying for that. Think about it.
Here's our financial correspondent, Kathleen Hays in New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soaring gas prices at the pump. That's an in your face, can't avoid it impact of rising energy prices. Gasoline prices have surged nearly 30 percent over the past year to almost two bucks a gallon nationwide. On average, American families are spending about $2,500 a year to fill their tanks. That's up from $1,900 a year ago.
But this is probably eating a lot more out of your family's budget than you realize.
BILL CHENEY, MFC GLOBAL INVESTMENT MGT.: It's hard to think of any part of the economy which is not affected by the price of oil or of energy in general. I mean, anything which is shipped anywhere is subject to the cost of fuel for shipping it whether it's air, road, whatever.
HAYS: Take FedEx and UPS, the world's largest express shipping companies. They currently tack on a surcharge of 6 percent or more to pay for higher fuel costs. That comes directly out of your pocketbook. What you may not notice is the added cost of trucking products across the country, but your local merchants are certainly paying the freight.
JOHN FELMY, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INST.: There's no question that the increases in diesel costs have really been a burden for farmers, for truckers, for many who transport goods around the country.
HAYS: Going on vacation anytime soon? Get ready to pay for higher jet fuel costs. Major U.S. airlines already slap fuel surcharges on passengers and cargo. Less obvious, but even more pervasive, petroleum products are used to produce everything from the silicon wafer chips that go into computers to the paints you use to brighten up baby's nursery. A few pennies here, a few dollars there, it all adds up to a big chunk of change taken away from American households.
FELMY: If you combine gasoline with the other forms of petroleum, every penny change in a cost of petroleum is more like $3 billion, because we consume 300 billion gallons a year.
HAYS (on camera): Wal-Mart said this week that higher gas prices are costing its customers about $7 a week, and other retailers have complained recently that because of higher gas prices, shoppers are making fewer trips to the mall.
Kathleen Hays, CNN Financial News, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And with that we'll take a break, and be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)
KAGAN: More now on those new allegations in the prison abuse scandal within Iraq. Journalist Seymour Hersh reports in the latest issue of "The New Yorker" magazine that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a clandestine unit to crack down on terrorists, and that Hersh says, laid the groundwork for abuses at Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq.
Here is what Hersh told our Bill Hemmer earlier today on CNN's AMERICAN MORNING.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": What happened is after the Afghanistan war began and it settled down and we beat the Taliban, we still found -- Rumsfeld was very frustrated by the fact that we would find al Qaeda somewhere around the world where we wanted to go get 'em. Even with our special forces, there was always bureaucrat obstacles. The local ambassador, the American ambassador will want to know what these teams are doing here, etc., etc., local police officials.
So what he did is he set up a super secret team, as you said, a special access program, which is the highest classification in the Pentagon. This is a -- it's a program that's run in an unarmed room and they have their own budgets. Congress doesn't know much about it.
This group was -- they recruited a number of operatives from Delta Force, the SEALs, competent people. Everybody had aliases. It was a completely off the record operation. They had their separate communications, separate travel, separate aircraft. And they could go without visas anywhere to grab somebody. They had their own prison system. The first cut they took care of. The second cut they sent down to Guantanamo.
This group was operating very effectively and still operates, getting a lot of people...
HEMMER: So you're saying and you're reporting that they had free reign around the world to do what they wanted, then, essentially? Is that right?
HERSH: Well, if the target was al Qaeda -- there were two requirements. You had to be sure they were al Qaeda or terrorists, and, also, you had to know they know something. And I can tell you, I don't know much more than that about it because obviously it works in such -- so much in the dark.
HEMMER: Maybe you know a little more about this. Now, you told Wolf Blitzer yesterday, they said they had a series of prisons somewhere around the world. That's a heck of a report.
What do you mean around the world? What were these prisons? How many? And where were they based?
HERSH: My commitment is not to get into operational details in my reporting, and I just haven't. I've been -- this story was very carefully checked just to make sure, by the "New Yorker" staff, even, the checking staff, with various sources to make sure I didn't get into -- I'm not doing anything operational. The point about the operation is that it was successful and ongoing. And last fall, when things began to go very bad in Iraq, we had -- just like this morning in Iraq -- we had a suicide bombing at the U.N. headquarters. The Jordanian embassy was hit. The American officials, the intelligence community had few assets inside the Sunni world in Iraq. And they knew they were, at that time they were talking publicly of 5,000 insurgents. They wanted to get, they wanted to get more information from the prison system out of Iraq.
And so they brought elements of this special unit into Baghdad with two basic requirements -- get some -- get people that are -- go and grab some of the Sunni males, use coercion and also use sexual intimidation if you have to.
One of the things that always works in the Arab world, they're so -- it's such a taboo to photograph a man naked and to pass it around that potential blackmail. The idea was to go and jack it up.
I'm not saying that Rumsfeld or the president or anybody else had any idea of how this sort of transmogrified into what we saw in the last few weeks in the photographs. But the core, the way it began was with a program in which guys coming in, very sophisticated guys under aliases -- we've all heard about the civilians running around those prisons basically in control of them -- some of them were people from this unit. Some of the people in the military intelligence were red into this unit.
I can tell you right now, the intelligence community went batty about this because they thought it was a very dumb idea.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: The Pentagon is flatly denying the allegations in Seymour Hersh's report. A spokesman for the defense secretary calls "The New Yorker Article," quote, "the most hysterical piece of journalistic malpractice I have ever observed."
The spokesman goes on to say there were 280,000 jobs created last month and "apparently there is still a shortage of fact checkers at "The New Yorker." End of that quote there.
We are going to check on the facts of the weather picture. That is just ahead after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Let's talk cardboard for a moment. Makes a great box. But a boat? CNN's Jeanne Moos floated hers anyway.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Queen Mary they are not. They range in shape from submarine, to Santa's sleigh to riverboat. And although this is a race, what the crowd loves is a sinking ship. The Regatta is a Stony Brook University tradition. Where else can a cardboard bottle of beer end up in the drink.
(on camera): Now is the boat made from like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we thought about it, but we didn't drink last night, so.
MOOS: Too flimsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
MOOS (voice-over): Not too flimsy for their heads. All vessels must be constructed from the simplest materials, mainly cardboard and duct tape.
A boxing ring didn't just float, it was a knockout.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it looks like they are trying to ram them.
MOOS: Boat builders were limited to seven materials. Among them, rope, clothes for sails only and Elmer's glue. But where there is smoke, there is fire. We stumbled on suspicious Styrofoam in this boat Sabreeze (ph).
(on camera): Hold it. Come on, this is illegal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it's not. No, it's cardboard.
MOOS: You're cheating and you lost.
Is there an educational point here or is this is just fun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely none. This is about hope triumphing over common sense.
MOOS (voice-over): Hope may triumph, but the Bud Light didn't. It became a sodden mass of cardboard and duct tape.
(on camera): It's not really such a Bud Light, is it?
(voice-over): And even the winner wound up in a dumpster. To what did the makers of this sleek cardboard kayak attribute their success?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of math.
MOOS: Same goes for the Bud Light.
(on camera): This is not like a 12 ouncer, this is a...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 40 ouncer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know, this is -- this is a 40 ouncer.
MOOS: A 40 ouncer.
(voice-over): Jeanne Moos, CNN, Stony Brook, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(WEATHER UPDATE)
KAGAN: It is the time of year when millions of college graduates are donning caps and gowns to hear an esteemed speaker offer congratulations and advice, then off to the real world.
For Saturday's commencement at St. Louis University look at the familiar face doing the talking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It was only a year ago that my daughter graduated from college. So I understand completely what the parents are going through.
And it was only a mere 34 years ago when I graduated from college myself. So I understand what you're going through yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: How about the folks at St. Louis University? Wolf Blitzer, their commencement speaker -- Wolf.
BLITZER: You have to show me a lot more respect, Daryn. They gave me an honorary doctorate. It was a lovely, lovely day at St. Louis University, which is a beautiful school, a wonderful school. Father Biondi, the president, took good care of me. So I was thrilled to be there.
It's the second largest Jesuit university -- second oldest Jesuit university United States. I bet you didn't know that, Daryn.
KAGAN: I did not. So
now at noon Eastern everyday I have to say, "That's it for me, Daryn Kagan. Now to Dr. Wolf Blitzer in Washington, D.C."
BLITZER: That's correct. And I expect all the courtesies that come with that kind honorary doctorate. Daryn Kagan, thanks.
KAGAN: You will get all of it. You have a great show, Wolf. We'll see you tomorrow.
BLITZER: Thanks very much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 17, 2004 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. announced today that an artillery shell containing a small amount of sarin nerve gas exploded in Baghdad. A couple members of the military explosive team were treated for minor exposure. The shell had apparently been rigged to go off as part of a roadside bomb.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: Iraqi Survey Group confirmed today that 155-millimeter artillery round containing sarin nerve agent had been found. The round had been rigged as an IED was which discovered by a U.S. force convoy. A detonation occurred before the IED could be rendered inoperable. It's produced a very small disbursal of agent.
The round was an old binary-type requiring the mixing of two components in separate sections of the cell before the deadly agent is produced. The cell is designed to work after being fired from an artillery piece mixing a disbursal of the agent from such a projectile as an IED is very limited.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Officials say the sarin shell was an old type that Saddam's regime declared it had destroyed after the Gulf War.
Let's bring in our security analyst Ken Robinson now. Joining us from Washington, D.C. Ken, good morning.
KEN ROBINSON, CNN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Hi. Good morning.
KAGAN: Let's talk about the significance of finding this type of shell and what that means as a security threat to the troops in Iraq.
ROBINSON: Well, it's a significant security threat that was an assumption that was made prior to the start of the battle for Baghdad that the potential existed that this might occur. And it's been considered ever since.
What we don't know is whether this round that was used is from the '89 time period, the Iran-Iraq War, whether it is from the first Gulf War, rounds which were moved and hidden. Or whether it is something even more sinister, potentially from some other border, brought in specifically for attacks against the coalition. KAGAN: Even if it's left over, the question has to be how many of these types of artilleries are out there.
ROBINSON: Well, that's exactly right. That was the whole purpose behind the 1998 efforts by the United Nations Special Commission on Iraq, because the Iraqi full and final complete disclosures of their destruction of these rounds was never full, final, or complete.
And the international community was struggling to make a difference between what they said they destroyed and what the production records and the storage records said. And that delta between these two disconnects is why the aggressiveness of the international community and the United States on whether they were still hiding WMD.
KAGAN: It would appear the way this particular artillery shell was handled that perhaps the people who are handling didn't really realize what they had because they did have some minor exposure. What does this mean for how the troops have to change what they're doing out in the field?
ROBINSON: Well, it certainly means that their Military Operational Preparedness Posture, what they call MOPP, will have to be upgraded now that this threat is real and live on the battlefield.
The issue that will come up first for their exposures is going to be a test of the agent purity, the agent purity of this round, because these rounds, when they're filled, they degrade. They get weaker with every day that goes by, especially if they're stored in heat and in the sun.
And so the issue of agent purity will tell us here in the news business and will tell the government what type of sarin batch this came from. They actually have samples of batches that were produced during the war, and they almost are like fingerprints. They may be able to distinguish where it came from specifically.
KAGAN: Ken Robinson with more information on the release of the sarin gas in this one artillery shell in Iraq. Thank you.
Both President Bush and his Democratic rival Senator John Kerry are marking the 50th anniversary of the historic decision that ended racial segregation in America's schools. Our Judy Woodruff is with us now. She is in Washington with more on that. Judy, good morning.
WOODRUFF: Good morning, Daryn. And thank you very much.
Well, the presidential campaign trail leads through Topeka, Kansas today where the focus is on the 50th anniversary of the Supreme Court's Brown vs. Board of Education ruling. A short time ago Senator John Kerry spoke at a ceremony marking anniversary. He says while the ruling officially ended segregation, its promise is still unmet. And he took aim at President Bush and his No Child Left Behind Act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is not a political statement, it's a matter of common sense. And it is a matter of truth to say to America, you cannot promise no child left behind and then pursue policies that leave millions of children behind every single day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WOODRUFF: President Bush is heading to Topeka right now to also participate in ceremonies marking the anniversary of the historic decision. The president will help dedicate the former Monroe Elementary School as a national historic site. CNN will have live coverage of the president's comments at 2:00 p.m. Eastern.
A new "Newsweek" poll shows President Bush's approval rating has dropped to 42 percent, a low point for his presidency. But the poll shows the race for the White House still very close with John Kerry at 46 percent and Bush at 45 percent. With independent Ralph Nader added to the mix, Kerry still holds a one-point lead.
Teamsters President James Hoffa is lobbying for Dick Gephardt to be Kerry's running mate on the Democratic ticket. Hoffa says he told Kerry that Gephardt has the record on trade and would be a great partner for Kerry.
Ohio Democrats have chosen talk show host Jerry Springer to be a delegate at the Democratic Convention in Boston this summer. He was named Democrat of the Year by the state party this weekend. Springer is no stranger to politics. He served as the mayor of Cincinnati before hosting his own television show.
A day for the history books in more ways than one. Gay marriages are now legal in Massachusetts. Our Bill Schneider will look at how much of an issue gay marriage will be in the race for the White House.
Plus, 50 years to the day after the historic civil rights case, our Bruce Morton will take a look at Brown vs. Board of Education. How did this historical, controversial case help shape America?
All this and more when I go "INSIDE POLITICS" at 3:30 p.m. Eastern, 12:30 Pacific.
Right now back to Daryn in Atlanta.
KAGAN: Thank you, Judy. Hey, what are you guys paying for gas up there in the D.C. area?
WOODRUFF: A little over $2.
KAGAN: Oh. Brutal. We're going to talk about high gas prices just ahead -- thank you, Judy -- taking a bite out of your wallet. Why you can't avoid the high cost of gas, even if you're avoiding the pump. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KAGAN: All right. You already know it's costing you more and more every time you fill up at the gas pump, but the gas station isn't the only place that you are paying for that. Think about it.
Here's our financial correspondent, Kathleen Hays in New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soaring gas prices at the pump. That's an in your face, can't avoid it impact of rising energy prices. Gasoline prices have surged nearly 30 percent over the past year to almost two bucks a gallon nationwide. On average, American families are spending about $2,500 a year to fill their tanks. That's up from $1,900 a year ago.
But this is probably eating a lot more out of your family's budget than you realize.
BILL CHENEY, MFC GLOBAL INVESTMENT MGT.: It's hard to think of any part of the economy which is not affected by the price of oil or of energy in general. I mean, anything which is shipped anywhere is subject to the cost of fuel for shipping it whether it's air, road, whatever.
HAYS: Take FedEx and UPS, the world's largest express shipping companies. They currently tack on a surcharge of 6 percent or more to pay for higher fuel costs. That comes directly out of your pocketbook. What you may not notice is the added cost of trucking products across the country, but your local merchants are certainly paying the freight.
JOHN FELMY, AMERICAN PETROLEUM INST.: There's no question that the increases in diesel costs have really been a burden for farmers, for truckers, for many who transport goods around the country.
HAYS: Going on vacation anytime soon? Get ready to pay for higher jet fuel costs. Major U.S. airlines already slap fuel surcharges on passengers and cargo. Less obvious, but even more pervasive, petroleum products are used to produce everything from the silicon wafer chips that go into computers to the paints you use to brighten up baby's nursery. A few pennies here, a few dollars there, it all adds up to a big chunk of change taken away from American households.
FELMY: If you combine gasoline with the other forms of petroleum, every penny change in a cost of petroleum is more like $3 billion, because we consume 300 billion gallons a year.
HAYS (on camera): Wal-Mart said this week that higher gas prices are costing its customers about $7 a week, and other retailers have complained recently that because of higher gas prices, shoppers are making fewer trips to the mall.
Kathleen Hays, CNN Financial News, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: And with that we'll take a break, and be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET UPDATE)
KAGAN: More now on those new allegations in the prison abuse scandal within Iraq. Journalist Seymour Hersh reports in the latest issue of "The New Yorker" magazine that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a clandestine unit to crack down on terrorists, and that Hersh says, laid the groundwork for abuses at Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq.
Here is what Hersh told our Bill Hemmer earlier today on CNN's AMERICAN MORNING.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": What happened is after the Afghanistan war began and it settled down and we beat the Taliban, we still found -- Rumsfeld was very frustrated by the fact that we would find al Qaeda somewhere around the world where we wanted to go get 'em. Even with our special forces, there was always bureaucrat obstacles. The local ambassador, the American ambassador will want to know what these teams are doing here, etc., etc., local police officials.
So what he did is he set up a super secret team, as you said, a special access program, which is the highest classification in the Pentagon. This is a -- it's a program that's run in an unarmed room and they have their own budgets. Congress doesn't know much about it.
This group was -- they recruited a number of operatives from Delta Force, the SEALs, competent people. Everybody had aliases. It was a completely off the record operation. They had their separate communications, separate travel, separate aircraft. And they could go without visas anywhere to grab somebody. They had their own prison system. The first cut they took care of. The second cut they sent down to Guantanamo.
This group was operating very effectively and still operates, getting a lot of people...
HEMMER: So you're saying and you're reporting that they had free reign around the world to do what they wanted, then, essentially? Is that right?
HERSH: Well, if the target was al Qaeda -- there were two requirements. You had to be sure they were al Qaeda or terrorists, and, also, you had to know they know something. And I can tell you, I don't know much more than that about it because obviously it works in such -- so much in the dark.
HEMMER: Maybe you know a little more about this. Now, you told Wolf Blitzer yesterday, they said they had a series of prisons somewhere around the world. That's a heck of a report.
What do you mean around the world? What were these prisons? How many? And where were they based?
HERSH: My commitment is not to get into operational details in my reporting, and I just haven't. I've been -- this story was very carefully checked just to make sure, by the "New Yorker" staff, even, the checking staff, with various sources to make sure I didn't get into -- I'm not doing anything operational. The point about the operation is that it was successful and ongoing. And last fall, when things began to go very bad in Iraq, we had -- just like this morning in Iraq -- we had a suicide bombing at the U.N. headquarters. The Jordanian embassy was hit. The American officials, the intelligence community had few assets inside the Sunni world in Iraq. And they knew they were, at that time they were talking publicly of 5,000 insurgents. They wanted to get, they wanted to get more information from the prison system out of Iraq.
And so they brought elements of this special unit into Baghdad with two basic requirements -- get some -- get people that are -- go and grab some of the Sunni males, use coercion and also use sexual intimidation if you have to.
One of the things that always works in the Arab world, they're so -- it's such a taboo to photograph a man naked and to pass it around that potential blackmail. The idea was to go and jack it up.
I'm not saying that Rumsfeld or the president or anybody else had any idea of how this sort of transmogrified into what we saw in the last few weeks in the photographs. But the core, the way it began was with a program in which guys coming in, very sophisticated guys under aliases -- we've all heard about the civilians running around those prisons basically in control of them -- some of them were people from this unit. Some of the people in the military intelligence were red into this unit.
I can tell you right now, the intelligence community went batty about this because they thought it was a very dumb idea.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: The Pentagon is flatly denying the allegations in Seymour Hersh's report. A spokesman for the defense secretary calls "The New Yorker Article," quote, "the most hysterical piece of journalistic malpractice I have ever observed."
The spokesman goes on to say there were 280,000 jobs created last month and "apparently there is still a shortage of fact checkers at "The New Yorker." End of that quote there.
We are going to check on the facts of the weather picture. That is just ahead after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KAGAN: Let's talk cardboard for a moment. Makes a great box. But a boat? CNN's Jeanne Moos floated hers anyway.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Queen Mary they are not. They range in shape from submarine, to Santa's sleigh to riverboat. And although this is a race, what the crowd loves is a sinking ship. The Regatta is a Stony Brook University tradition. Where else can a cardboard bottle of beer end up in the drink.
(on camera): Now is the boat made from like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we thought about it, but we didn't drink last night, so.
MOOS: Too flimsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
MOOS (voice-over): Not too flimsy for their heads. All vessels must be constructed from the simplest materials, mainly cardboard and duct tape.
A boxing ring didn't just float, it was a knockout.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it looks like they are trying to ram them.
MOOS: Boat builders were limited to seven materials. Among them, rope, clothes for sails only and Elmer's glue. But where there is smoke, there is fire. We stumbled on suspicious Styrofoam in this boat Sabreeze (ph).
(on camera): Hold it. Come on, this is illegal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it's not. No, it's cardboard.
MOOS: You're cheating and you lost.
Is there an educational point here or is this is just fun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely none. This is about hope triumphing over common sense.
MOOS (voice-over): Hope may triumph, but the Bud Light didn't. It became a sodden mass of cardboard and duct tape.
(on camera): It's not really such a Bud Light, is it?
(voice-over): And even the winner wound up in a dumpster. To what did the makers of this sleek cardboard kayak attribute their success?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of math.
MOOS: Same goes for the Bud Light.
(on camera): This is not like a 12 ouncer, this is a...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 40 ouncer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know, this is -- this is a 40 ouncer.
MOOS: A 40 ouncer.
(voice-over): Jeanne Moos, CNN, Stony Brook, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(WEATHER UPDATE)
KAGAN: It is the time of year when millions of college graduates are donning caps and gowns to hear an esteemed speaker offer congratulations and advice, then off to the real world.
For Saturday's commencement at St. Louis University look at the familiar face doing the talking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It was only a year ago that my daughter graduated from college. So I understand completely what the parents are going through.
And it was only a mere 34 years ago when I graduated from college myself. So I understand what you're going through yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: How about the folks at St. Louis University? Wolf Blitzer, their commencement speaker -- Wolf.
BLITZER: You have to show me a lot more respect, Daryn. They gave me an honorary doctorate. It was a lovely, lovely day at St. Louis University, which is a beautiful school, a wonderful school. Father Biondi, the president, took good care of me. So I was thrilled to be there.
It's the second largest Jesuit university -- second oldest Jesuit university United States. I bet you didn't know that, Daryn.
KAGAN: I did not. So
now at noon Eastern everyday I have to say, "That's it for me, Daryn Kagan. Now to Dr. Wolf Blitzer in Washington, D.C."
BLITZER: That's correct. And I expect all the courtesies that come with that kind honorary doctorate. Daryn Kagan, thanks.
KAGAN: You will get all of it. You have a great show, Wolf. We'll see you tomorrow.
BLITZER: Thanks very much.
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