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American Morning

Iraqi Governing Council President Killed; Interview With Senator Richard Lugar; Kerry-McCain Chatter

Aired May 17, 2004 - 9:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Terror strike in Baghdad, dealing a dire blow to the country's Governing Council.
And what's behind the big fly for President Bush? New polls, new lows for his approval ratings.

And it is wedding day in Massachusetts. Same-sex couples getting married, and it's all legal, on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 9:00 here in New York. Good morning, everyone. Other stories this hour...

The first U.S. soldier to face a court-martial in the prison abuse scandal goes to trial this week. We'll talk to the lawyer for Specialist Jeremy Sivits, telling a different story than some of his fellow soldiers who are also charged. That's coming up.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, Senator John McCain has said again and again and again he will not join fellow Senator John Kerry on the Democratic ticket. So why is everybody still talking about that? Jeff Greenfield is going to try to answer that one for us.

HEMMER: All right. To Jack Cafferty.

Good morning.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

Olympic games in Athens this summer. Should American athletes not wave this country's flag in the event they are victorious? Some Olympic officials are cautioning against it, saying that it could engender hostility on the part of the crowd. You can e-mail us your thoughts on that subject at am@cnn.com.

O'BRIEN: Interesting question today. All right, Jack, thanks.

Top stories now.

Starting today in Massachusetts, thousands of people are showing their support for gay marriage at city hall. People began lining up as the city of Cambridge began giving out same-sex marriage licenses. Today marks the first day that gay couples can legally be married in the state of Massachusetts. The federal government now promising to put cheaper life-saving AIDS medications on the fast track to get hard-hit nations on board. The FDA will propose new guidelines for quicker approval of HIV combination drugs. It is part of the president's $15 billion AIDS relief proposal.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: The Iraqi Governing Council already selecting a successor after a car bomb attack earlier today killed the President of the Iraqi Governing Council outside coalition headquarters in Baghdad. That blast also killing up to six Iraqis near a checkpoint heading into the Green Zone. The head of the council says the attack will not cause them to retreat from the march toward a new Iraq.

To Baghdad straight away and Harris Whitbeck for more on this.

Good afternoon there, Harris.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bill.

As you said, the Iraqi Governing Council took steps shortly after that attack this morning to stabilize itself. It named a new President. As you know, the presidency of the Governing Council is a rotating post, and it was taken up by the man who was supposed to take it in June, a Sunni Muslim from the city of Mosul. He will remain as President of the Governing Council until the handover takes place next June 30.

Now, the attack this morning did rattle a few nerves. Many people here concerned about continued safety and stability in Iraq as the date of the handover continues. And some councilmembers expressed concern about that. They said that both the coalition authorities and the Iraqi Governing Council itself need to take a closer look how to deal with the insecurity in the Iraqi capital -- Bill.

HEMMER: Harris, what type of security is given to the members of the Iraqi Governing Council, especially the President of the IGC?

WHITBECK: Well, they travel with bodyguards. In fact, his bodyguards were highly visible this morning, particularly when his body was taken to an area hospital. His bodyguards were right around that body. And he was traveling in a convoy of several vehicles.

But from what eyewitnesses say on the ground, not very little attention was being paid to the routine that he would operate under on a daily basis because they say that there was a small red car waiting at the coalition checkpoint for the president's convoy to arrive, which would indicate that they knew that he was going to be doing that. So, again, lots of bodyguards and lots of vehicles, but not much else as far as we could tell.

HEMMER: What a tragedy it is. Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad.

Soledad? O'BRIEN: The Senate Foreign Relations Committee holds hearings this week on the transition to Iraqi sovereignty six weeks from now. Indiana Republican Richard Lugar, who chairs the committee, joined us earlier on AMERICAN MORNING, and I asked him what effect an attack like, the one this morning, might have on the impending handover.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, they will not undermine the handover. That is going to occur, and clearly our policymakers are moving to put an Iraqi face on democracy and governance. Likewise, rapidly on security.

But it does indicate that, as that changes, as there is more responsibility assumed by Iraqis, they are clearly in harm's way in the same way that our fighting forces are or that of our allies. In other words, it's a shared responsibility and a share of danger. And as we saw today in this tragic killing, the Iraqis will not be intimidated. The Governing Council is going to continue on, but, nevertheless, the loss is severe and this type of disruption is certainly unwanted.

O'BRIEN: This is the second time now that I've heard you say put an Iraqi face on the country as soon as possible. Specifically, what do you mean? And explain to me what then the role of the U.S. and the U.S. military is under the scenario that you're discussing.

LUGAR: Well, essentially, Secretary Powell at the World Economic Forum answered an important question of his colleagues there. And they said, hypothetically, what if the Iraqis on June 30 or thereabouts say to the United States of America, "We really don't want you here any longer?" Would the United States leave?

And Secretary Powell says, "Yes, under the circumstances, we would." Now, he added that he anticipates the Governing Council and the new people that the ambassador from the U.N. is going to name will want the United States, will want others to help in the security. And I believe that they will, too.

But this is certainly a transition in our own thinking in which we're saying, finally, Iraqis are going to have to step up to the plate themselves and make some tough decisions with regard to their security, how it will be coordinated with the United States of America and with others. And we're going to do to have that very rapidly.

O'BRIEN: We started talking this morning about the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. And as I'm sure you well know, presidential adviser, Karl Rove, said that he felt it would take a full generation before everyone essentially got over the scandal to some degree. How do you see the impact of this scandal affecting really Iraq's ability to get back on track and the relationship between the U.S. and Iraq?

LUGAR: Well, the relationship has not been helped. But let me just say, for Iraqis who are under fire, such as we've seen this tragic case of the provisional President killed this morning, their attention is really on governance, it's on survival, at least of democratic elements that they hope will come forward on survival of their country as a whole.

As bad as the president's scandal may be, there could very well be lots of other scandals and difficulties along the way. But the major objectives are not going to be deterred. And we have to be working carefully, day by day, in the midst of everything else that is being commented on, on these elements of transition, of getting at least the hopes for democracy, democracy-building into the Iraqi system with enough security that the Iraqis, themselves, who are taking responsibility are not routinely killed and eliminated and, thus, cause disruption.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was Indiana Senator Richard Lugar, the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee joining us earlier this morning.

Bill?

HEMMER: Well, the topic of Iraq continues to have an adverse effect on President Bush's poll numbers. A new CNN-TIME poll shows the president's approval rating at 46 percent, compared to 49 who disapprove. And in a head-to-head battle with presumptive Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, Kerry leading 51 to 46 percent in the latest polling numbers.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the first of four U.S. soldiers prepares to face military justice this week. We're going to hear who he says is responsible for prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib.

HEMMER: Also, he keeps saying no, but could John McCain become John Kerry's running mate? Analysis on that from Jeff Greenfield on that in a moment.

O'BRIEN: Also, "Troy" triumphs, but Rocky has a fight on his hands. "90-Second Pop" is coming up just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: The Pentagon today again denying the latest claims about the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal contained in a New Yorker report by investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. In the current issue of The New Yorker Magazine, Hersh reports that the abuse at Aug Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, resulted from a secret plan approved by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, which included tougher interrogation methods to fight the insurgents.

Earlier here on AMERICAN MORNING, Seymour Hersh told us the abuses at the prison must have come from above those soldiers actually seen in the notorious pictures.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEYMOUR HERSH, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: The truth of the matter is that the civilians are running that prison. And just who they are, we don't know. And if anybody thinks that six or seven kids decided a way to get to the Iraqi male is to humiliate them sexually, the idea that some kids from rural America would know the sophistication of that, is pretty amazing. There was somebody much higher up involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: That was Seymour Hersh from last hour. Part of that statement from the Department of Defense reads -- I'm quoting now -- "The article in this week's New Yorker Magazine by Seymour Hersh is based on what appears to be a single anonymous source that makes dramatically false assertions. The burden of proof for these false claims rests upon the reporter."

Well, Army Specialist Jeremy Sivits faces a court-martial in Baghdad. Two days away now for his alleged role in that scandal. He's the first of four U.S. soldiers to face military justice this week. The charges against Specialist Sivits include: conspiracy to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty, and cruelty and maltreatment of detainees.

Retired Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel David Beck is a civilian military attorney and a former judge advocate general. He's live in Knoxville, Tennessee, to talk about this case and more.

Good morning, Colonel. Thanks for joining us here on AMERICAN MORNING.

COL. DAVID BECK (RET.), CIVILIAN MILITARY ATTORNEY: Good morning, Bill. Thank you for having me.

HEMMER: First matters first. A special court-martial, how is that different from a regular court-martial?

BECK: Well, a general court-martial, before you can go to trial by general court-martial, there has to be an Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing similar to an indictment. A special court-martial requires no Article 32 hearing, requires no indictment. It's convened, referred by the convening authority, the commanding general, the commander with responsibility for the area.

HEMMER: It's my understanding he's going to offer a plea deal, Specialist Sivits will. How will that impact his case?

BECK: Well, it depends on what the plea deal is. Just like in the civilian world, a plea bargain will include an agreement by Specialist Sivits to provide truthful testimony and, in return, an exchange for that plea. There does not have to be a trial of the facts. There will have to be a thorough providency (ph) inquiry to be sure that he really is guilty. But in exchange for that, he will receive something in the form of either a reduced or suspended sentence.

HEMMER: I see. Listen, in a case like this, how much is it one person's word against the other? And as you answer that, consider the photos that are out there, too, as evidence.

BECK: Well, it's not one person's word against the other. There are photographs that we have seen, there are videos and photographs that have not been seen which the defense will have the right and the prosecution can use in evidence.

There are also witnesses. There is the young specialist who had the courage to come forward to report this abuse. There are also, Bill -- and nobody has talked about the Iraqi detainees and prisoners themselves who were victims. If they are willing to come forward, they will be available as witnesses. So there is -- and then there is also the possibility of those who haven't gone to trial yet, deciding as the evidence mounts, that they may want to try to get some kind of plea bargain also.

HEMMER: Talk about the potential for a defense here. There is one report out that says the conditions of the prison were, "the most deplorable, inhumane conditions any soldiers had to experience." It talked about 14 to 18 hour work days, seven days a week. Can you, as a soldier, say I was under stress and I will use that stress as my defense?

BECK: They may try to use it as a defense, but that's bunk. Tell that to the troops who are on the frontlines, dodging rocket- propelled grenades. They're working 18 to 20, to 24 hours a day. The fact that they're working long hours, that the conditions aren't great, is a part of war.

Does it cause stress? Certainly. Is that a defense? Absolutely not.

We have young men and women who are on the front lines, who are in the air, who are on the ships and the carriers working those kind of hours. And if you tell that to some of our World War II and Vietnam veterans, I am sure they will give a resounding no, that's not a defense.

HEMMER: I'm running out of time. I want to get to two topics again here, if I could.

The article in The New Yorker, Seymour Hersh, I don't know if you've seen it or not. But if you have, or even have not, maybe you're aware of the headlines out of that. Is it plausible to you that the techniques used in Abu Ghraib were imported essentially from Afghanistan, learned there prior, and even Guantanamo Bay in Cuba?

BECK: It is plausible. It needs to be thoroughly investigated, because part of the charges these soldiers are facing -- and this doesn't excuse what they did -- that was inhumane and wrong -- but they're charged with conspiracy. Conspiracy means an agreement, others telling.

It needs to be thoroughly investigated all the way up the chain of command because too many times in recent years, those responsible in the chain of command at the highest ranks are denying responsibility or they're reprimanded and nothing else is done. If that happened in this case, then there not only needs to be resignations of high-ranking officers and civilian administrators, there needs to be criminal investigations.

HEMMER: Don't have much time, but I want to get your response to this: how do you defend the right to a fair trial knowing that Specialist Sivits will face this in Baghdad, in a military court, with the eyes of the world essentially watching this based on the headlines?

BECK: The eyes of the world is good. The fact that the media there is good, because the 1st Amendment does apply in the military.

A fair trial with all of the publicity that's been out there, it's difficult, it will be up for his lawyers. That's probably why they've got a plea bargain. But one of the big issues that's going to come up in all these cases is unlawful command influence, because the outcry that has arisen and the fact that the President and the secretary of defense have made the comments they have, will make it difficult and the issue of unlawful command influence will be huge.

HEMMER: Listen, come back later in the week. We'd love to talk to you again. Colonel Dave Beck there in Knoxville, Tennessee. Thank you, sir.

BECK: You're welcome.

HEMMER: Soledad?

O'BRIEN: Today marks the 50th anniversary of Brown v. the Board of Education, the historic Supreme Court decision that outlawed segregation in public schools. But 50 years later, African-American students are still feeling a racial divide.

A recent Gallup poll asked whether educational opportunities for black children have improved. Ninety-two percent of whites said yes, 77 percent of blacks said yes, and 23 percent said no. On the question of whether black and White children have equally opportunities, 63 percent of whites and 34 percent of blacks said yes. But 31 percent of whites and 68 percent of blacks said they do not.

Earlier on AMERICAN MORNING, we were joined by Education Secretary Rod Paige, the first African-American to hold that position, and we asked him based on these poll numbers, how can the minority students be convinced of a fair education in America today?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD PAIGE, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: We see leadership from the President, we see leadership from the Congress. Now it's time for the other leadership to step up and send a signal that there is a high expectation for all kids, that education is the key to the future. Our heroes in the past, our leaders in the past already told us this, and so we just need to renew that effort. It can be done, and we're doing it now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Secretary Paige earlier this morning.

President Bush today will attend the official opening of a national historic site in Topeka, marking the 50th anniversary of that Brown v. Board of Education decision. And CNN will carry the president's remarks live at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

Bill?

HEMMER: About 20 minutes past the hour, Soledad. In a moment, the Iraqi Governing Council vowing again today not to retreat. A car bomb taking the life of its President. More on that in a moment.

And in Massachusetts, making history today. Same-sex couples come together. We just witnessed the first same-sex marriage today. We'll go there live in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Time to check in with Jack and the Question of the Day.

Hello.

CAFFERTY: Good morning.

U.S. Olympic officials warning athletes not to celebrate by waving the American flag during the Athens Olympics this summer. According to the London Telegraph, they are worried that it could provoke hostility from the crowd and worsen America's already battered image.

But the tradition of athletes waving the American flag goes in celebration goes back a long way. Remember George Foreman of the '68 games? The question is this: should American athletes not wave the flag at the summer Olympic games?

We've gotten a lot of mail, and most of it, at least as far as I can tell, says we ought to be waving the flag, regardless of who likes it or who doesn't. That's most of it. Some feel otherwise.

Trevor in Sacramento writes this: "I don't equate Afghan Olympians with the Taliban or bin Laden. I have no problem watching the thrill of an Iraqi soccer player after scoring a goal or making a great play. It's not too much to ask for the same sportsmanship in return if an American feels elated enough to do a victory lap."

Michael in Farmingdale says, "If our athletes win a competition, they have a right to show our flag. If the rest of the world finds this unacceptable, who needs them anyway? Am I the only American who finds saving the rest of the world from themselves as getting to be a bit tedious? We save Europe from fascism, the Iraqis from a despot, and the worldwide destain we get for our efforts in return is disgusting."

John in Madison has a different idea. "Moving past the political rhetoric, one does have to be concerned about security. Athletes are not soldiers. It is not criticism and whether or not others like us that we need to be concerned about. Given the uncertain state of security at the Olympic games, we should be asking if we want our athletes to be waving a target, not waving a flag." And Craig in Nashville says, "If the Olympics had been held in October of 2001, everyone would have been waving American flags. The arrogant foreign policy of this administration has definitely wasted that goodwill and support, and has made American lives unsafe traveling abroad."

The other thing, somebody pointed out the parallels that exist in the world in general between what's going on in the Middle East now and what was going on in the Middle East in the -- in 1972, when the Israeli athletes were kidnapped and later murdered at the Munich Olympic games. A lot of parallels politically, violence in the Middle East, a lot of things going on there.

HEMMER: What is the chance you win a gold medal and you're a young American athlete and you keep that flag in your pocket? I'd say the tendency is to go ahead and let your emotions show.

CAFFERTY: It will be interesting to see.

HEMMER: All right, Jack.

Let's get a break here. In a moment, is the Italian stallion ready for Broadway? That and baby news. What's in a name? Ask the actress, Gwyneth Paltrow. We'll take a shot at that. "90-Second Pop" right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Ahead in this half-hour, Jeff Greenfield is going to take a look at a persistent political story about John McCain perhaps joining John Kerry on the Democratic presidential ticket. McCain says no. In fact, he says no about it a lot. But Jeff told us there's a lot more to the story than just the VP speculation. We'll get into that.

HEMMER: Also this half-hour, same-sex couples have started getting married today in Massachusetts. In fact, the first one went down about 30 minutes ago. A very emotional day in that state for people with a wide range of opinions on this topic. Live to Boston in a moment for the latest there today.

O'BRIEN: And first our top story this morning. Suicide bombing in Iraq hitting at a checkpoint in central Baghdad overnight. The explosion left about four to six Iraqis dead, including the president of Iraq's Governing Council. We're going to take you live to the White House for reaction on that coming up in just a moment.

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice holding talks in Berlin today with the Palestinian prime minister. It is another push by the Bush administration to get peace talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians moving forward. Meanwhile, Israeli troops deployed in southern Gaza. The operation being described by Israel as one to stop Palestinian militants moving through that region. Secretary of State Colin Powell delivering a commencement address this morning to students at Wake Forest University. Secretary Powell is returning from the Middle East, where he held talks on the stalled peace efforts between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

And Brad Pitt's Greek epic, "Troy," debuted at number one at the weekend box office. "Troy" wrestled in an estimated $46 million. The film, though, fell short of the $50 million benchmark which is viewed informally in Hollywood as the passing grade for a movie. Hugh Jackson's "Van Helsing" fell to second place.

That's sad when $46 million doesn't cut it. Fifty is the passing grade.

HEMMER: We're terrible. You know, they compare it to "Gladiator." "Gladiator" made $34 million its opening weekend. So this beat that by $12 million, which portends a good sign.

O'BRIEN: Internationally, it will be huge.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: Iraq's U.S.-backed Governing Council has a new leader already today. That's because the council's president was killed when a suicide car bomber struck a checkpoint near Baghdad's so-called Green Zone, where U.S. officials have their offices. That blast also killed at least three other Iraqis, wounded two U.S. soldiers.

Reaction now from the White House on this. To Dana Bash.

Dana, good morning.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

And the first reaction comes from a senior administration official who said, "We condemn this shocking and vile act. It was a tragic loss. The forces who hope to halt Iraq's march toward freedom and democracy will be defeated. The Iraqi people will ensure that Mr. Salim's vision of a free, democratic, prosperous Iraq will become a reality."

Now, this a particular act that comes at a time where the administration is working very hard to try to get international support for the transition of sovereignty that is happening in just six weeks. And there are still lots of questions and not as many answers about how that all will work.

Secretary Powell was working on Arab leaders to get their support over the weekend. The president's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, is in Berlin at this time, talking to some of her European counterparts. All an attempt to get some international support to try to make this happen on target. That is still what the White House is saying at this point, just six weeks away -- Bill.

HEMMER: More throughout the day. Dana, thanks. Dana Bash there on the front lawn. Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, if he said it once, he said it a hundred times. Arizona Republican Senator John McCain is not interested in crossing party lines to become Senator John Kerry's running mate. But that has not stopped the chatter. Saturday's New York Times carried a front page story on the notion. So on the Sunday talk shows, McCain had to say it once again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Categorically, I will not be vice president of the United States. I will not be a candidate. And I mean that.

I'm happy in the Senate. I'd like to maintain my role. I am a loyal Republican. I am supporting President Bush's reelection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: But will the senator's denial silence the Kerry-McCain chorus? And is all of the veep talk concealing a more subtle political point? Those are the questions we pose this morning to our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield, who joins us this morning with his perspective.

Good morning. When I asked Senator McCain this exact question, he said to me, "Soledad, my wife has a T-shirt. It says 'What part of no don't you understand?'" And I said, "Ouch, Senator. OK, point taken."

I thought he meant no, and he said it very clearly. He hasn't been hemming and hawing on the issue. So why haven't people just taken him at his word?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Well, I think there are two groups that are really interested in keeping this alive. One, any number of Democrats who see this ideas as a sure-fire way to win the White House. And McCain is actually more popular than either Bush or Kerry, especially among Independents. And there are also, believe it or not, some political types who think the idea of a national unity ticket is important both to fight the terror threat and to somehow ease the intensely polarized political climate.

And second, of course, there is us. That is, the press. Ever since March, when John Kerry wrapped up the nomination, it's the one official thing to talk about. And the notion of such a dramatic "holy smokes" event, or sometimes called something else in the news business, it's just too tempting to resist.

O'BRIEN: All right. So let's say John McCain means it, he will not take the VP shift, if he, in fact, is even offered it. What do you think is the subtle part of this that McCain is considering?

GREENFIELD: This is where I think it gets interesting. McCain has said, you heard it just a minute ago, he's supporting the president and he'll campaign for him. But McCain has flatly refused to go after John Kerry in any way.

Why does that matter? Because a key part of the Bush campaign strategy is to paint John Kerry as unreliable, weak, a little soft on terror, voting to strip away American defenses. McCain would be a wonderful surrogate to make that point. But he not only doesn't talk about that, he has defended Kerry on any number of occasions.

And for his part, Kerry invokes McCain all of the time in speeches, in an ad. And so what hasn't happened is for John McCain to say to John Kerry publicly, I don't want you using me in your ads, I don't want voters to think in any way I'm backing you. And I haven't even mentioned the extremely sharp criticism McCain has had about the whole basic administration strategy for post-war Iraq.

O'BRIEN: OK. Then give me a sense why. Do you think that to some degree McCain wants Senator Kerry to win but doesn't want to be part of the team?

GREENFIELD: You know, that's above my pay grade. And unless we pump a gallon of sodium pentathlon in it, I don't know how to answer that question.

But this we do know. John McCain and John Kerry share not just a Vietnam combat experience, but they went to Vietnam together to look into the whole missing Americans controversy. They worked together to normalize relations in Vietnam.

McCain has written about the bond they formed. And McCain is one of those rare politicians I think who actually takes these kinds of personal loyalty points seriously.

One other really interesting point, I hope, about the whole VP idea. McCain said yesterday he wants to knock down any idea that he's still angry at Bush for the very hard tactics used in the 2000 South Carolina primaries. I think it is really important to McCain that he not be seen as carrying a personal grudge against the president.

And I'll tell you what it reminds me of. It reminds me a little of Robert Kennedy back in 1967, when people were pushing at him to run against Johnson. And what he said over and over again, he said, look, if I ever ran for president, people would say it was a personal grudge against Johnson, and the issues I have with him on Vietnam would be obscured.

I think McCain believes that if he were to break with Bush politically, it would undermine what he has to say about the prisoners, about Iraq, about terror. Now, one final point, Soledad. At the end, Robert Kennedy did enter the list and ran for president.

O'BRIEN: Bringing us right back to where we started this morning. Even though Senator McCain says, "Soledad, it says no." "What part of no don't you understand?"

Jeff, as always, thanks.

Bill? HEMMER: Soledad, just after midnight, Massachusetts became the first state in the country to sanction same-sex marriages. Eric Philips live in Boston.

The lines are getting long on your stand, Eric. Godo morning. What do you have?

ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bill, good morning to you.

At about 9:00 this morning, the clerk's office here in Boston opened, allowing same-sex couples to begin applying for those long- awaited marriage licenses. And behind me, you can see how the line has been forming since early this morning. Crowds of people waiting to get into Boston City Hall to file those applications.

Just a few moments ago, we saw an entourage of reporters and microphones and cameras following the Goodrich (ph) couple over to the courthouse. They've applied for their license. Now they're going over to the courthouse to seek a waiver.

Here in Massachusetts, there is a three-day rule, whereby you have to wait three days after applying for your application before you can marry. But many of these couples here today plan to seek a waiver of that rule so they can get married today.

Of course, this process has been on a roll in Cambridge, Massachusetts, since early this morning. Just after midnight, one couple that's been together for 27 years filed for their marriage license there. Fifty-two-year-old Susan Shepherd (ph) and 56-year-old Marsha Hams (ph) were the first to receive their license.

Some 5,000 people gathered to throw rice and sing the "Star Spangled Banner" just after midnight. Also, they cut a wedding cake. And there was a very celebratory spirit there.

About 300 showed up there in Cambridge this morning to protest. But again, those who were there to celebrate clearly outnumbered those who were against gay marriage. Many people hoping and praying that they will be able to get married today, despite that three-day rule -- Bill.

HEMMER: Eric Philips in Boston. Thanks for that.

Also, a hearing is scheduled in New York today on same-sex marriages. Weddings were performed back in February by New Paltz Mayor Jason West. He was then charged with more than 20 violations of state law for performing marriages for people who did not have a license.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, those gas-guzzling, road- hugging Hummers. Well, now you can get one at a discount. Andy Serwer has details on that.

HEMMER: Also, Oscar-winning actress Gwyneth Paltrow has delivered her baby. Some are wondering what's with the name? That's part of our "90-Second Pop" in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Oh, you're tempting me. It's in my range.

Good morning, everybody. It's time for the ever popular Monday edition of "90-Second Pop" with our gang of pop culture mavens, humorist Andy Borowitz of theborowitzreport.com; New York Magazine contributing editor, Sarah Bernard; and Toure, contributing editor for Rolling Stone.

Good morning each and every one of you.

TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, ROLLING STONE: I'm confused from "The Sopranos." My head is still spinning. What happened?

O'BRIEN: You spent all weekend in watching TV?

TOURE: How do you know what happened?

ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: I'm still confused about "Meet the Press."

O'BRIEN: A lot of people still confused about "Meet the Press" with the secretary of state on. But that's another story. And you know what? Neither of those topics are actually in "90-Second Pop" today. But Gwyneth Paltrow, new baby.

SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Very, very large baby.

O'BRIEN: You know how big a 9 pound 11 -- that's like this big.

BOROWITZ: How is that physically possible to come out of Gwyneth Paltrow?

O'BRIEN: Because she is tiny.

TOURE: It's not as hard as twins, though. That's the challenge. Let's talk about that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: We're getting off topic here. She named the baby something weird, though.

BERNARD: She named the baby Apple!

O'BRIEN: I don't know if I hate it or love it.

BERNARD: We need a code breaker for this. I don't understand. I've been trying to figure this out since Saturday.

O'BRIEN: It's Apple Blythe...

BERNARD: It's Apple Blythe Alison Martin. And the "Blythe" and "Alison" are their moms' names. So that I understand. But the apple, I mean the only thing I can think of is Apple Martin, apple martini.

O'BRIEN: I love apple martinis, and that was my first thought!

BERNARD: That's what it is.

TOURE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a Beatles reference, because Chris Martin has got to be a big Beatles head. Apple was the name of the Beatles' label. Every Beatles head would know that. So perhaps they're thinking in that sort of terms.

BOROWITZ: But when you're naming your kid Apple, aren't you just giving schoolyard bullies like a head start?

O'BRIEN: They don't even have to try.

BOROWITZ: The only other choice is like stupid and...

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about "Rocky," because actually big lawsuit between Sylvester Stallone and MGM.

BOROWITZ: Right. Well, Sylvester Stallone is suing MGM because MGM is trying to prevent him from doing "Rocky," the Broadway musical.

Now, I just think there are other obstacles tot his getting off the ground. Like, how do you cast this thing? Because you have to find a Broadway musical star who can throw a punch. And other than Liza Minelli, I can't really think of anybody who can fill the bill.

O'BRIEN: And doesn't he want to continue to be in the "Rocky" -- I mean, he looks great. I'll give him that.

BOROWITZ: Yes. He must be stopped.

O'BRIEN: The guy looks good. But he's like...

TOURE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) lawsuit, which is just like a creative injunction?

BERNARD: No more Rocky!

TOURE: So just stop!

BOROWITZ: He wants to make Rocky VI. That's what we're...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: That's a brilliant idea. Someone might do that. Let's talk about season finales. Of course, "Frasier" is gone, "Friends" gone. There are certain shows you say should be gone, Toure, that aren't.

TOURE: "The Swan" is so disgusting and...

O'BRIEN: That is the one where plastic surgery is done on people? TOURE: Yes, you get plastic surgery, but it's part of a competition. So after the doctors do all the plastic surgery on you, then we see who is prettier. At that point...

O'BRIEN: Your self-esteem is down here.

TOURE: How do you have self-esteemless (ph) people in this competition?

BERNARD: I completely agree with you.

TOURE: This is typical Fox tasteless disgusting (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: You guys, as always, thank you very much, Andy and Sarah and Toure.

Bill?

HEMMER: All right, Soledad. Thanks.

Medical news now 13 minutes before the hour. Obesity is the underlying cause of many health problems such as diabetes and strokes and heart attacks. Now a new study says body fat plays a role in breast cancer. Our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, at the CNN Center to talk about how women can reduce this risk.

Elizabeth, good morning. What have you found out?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

Bill, the connection between being too heavy and heart disease is pretty intuitive. I think people get that. Being too fat can put too much of a burden on the heart. But the connection between being heavy and breast cancer is not as intuitive. So let's talk about why it's true.

Fat actually makes estrogen. Estrogen is made by fat cells. And so when people have too much fat, that raises the level of estrogen in their bodies, and that, in turn, raises the risk of breast cancer. So that is why there is this connection that's been found in many different studies between being heavy and higher risk of breast cancer.

Now, this study, Bill, a hundred thousand women. That's huge. It's something women really need to think about, because it's one of the few things you can do to lower your risk of breast cancer. Keeping a healthy weight is one of the few things you can do -- Bill.

HEMMER: Does it matter where the body fat is? Some say some fat in certain parts of the body is worse than others. Is that a fact?

COHEN: You know what? Studies have gone back and forth on this several different times. Some studies show that if the fat is around a woman's belly that that's worse. Some say if it's around her rear end and her hips that that's worse. They've gone back and forth. The bottom line is probably just that any kind of fat is bad. That it's not good to be heavy for all sorts of reasons, including, as we know now, breast cancer.

HEMMER: Back to your original answer here, are younger overweight women more at risk?

COHEN: You know what? They're not when it comes to this certain cause of breast cancer. And let me explain why.

For post-menopausal women, being overweight is an important cause it appears of breast cancer. For women who have not yet hit menopause, it doesn't really matter so much. Younger women have so much es estrogen in their bodies anyway that it doesn't really matter so much if they're heavy.

But it's important to keep in mind that if you're heavy pre- menopausally (ph), there's a very good chance that you're probably going to be heavy post-meopausally (ph). So lose the weight as early as you can.

HEMMER: Thanks, Elizabeth. See you later.

COHEN: See you.

HEMMER: All right.

Soledad?

Still to come this morning, a sign of the times as Hummer salesmen aross the country wheel and deal like never before, all in the hopes of making a sale. Andy Serwer is up next with that story.

And we're back in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Perhaps the loudest and proudest of the big SUVs is now offering rebates. With that, and a check of the markets, Andy Serwer 'Minding Your Business.'

Let's check the markets first, because, of course, as we talked right at the half-hour, the market opened and we were expecting some bad news.

ANDY SERWER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: Yes. And a downdraft, indeed, has occurred with stocks this morning. Let's check the Big Board here.

We're down -- well, we kind of recovered a little bit. Only down 60 points. We were down over a hundred earlier.

Nasdaq getting beat up a little bit worse, down over a percent. One stock moving to the upside, we talked about it improving fortunes there. K-mart, the stock is up $2 to $46. Lowe's having some good numbers. They're down, though, a little bit. Limited doing OK. What's going on this morning? Well, the price of oil is up. We all know that. Now (ph) up over $41, heading to $42.

O'BRIEN: To what degree is that linked to what we were teasing before, which is the Hummer now on a massive discount?

SERWER: Well, I think it has a lot to do with that. You know, for months now, Detroit has been saying high gas prices have not impacted SUV sales. Well, guess what? Three dollar gasoline will do it.

And you've seen this here with Hummers. The prices of these things have been hurt because now GM is starting to roll out rebates for the first time ever. Sales of these babies are down eight months in a row, down 24 percent this year.

And here is the salient point: 11 miles to the gallon is what a Hummer gets. So, you know, that will hurt you.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

SERWER: I just got in my ear someone telling me the Dow is back down a lot more. It's down 115 points. So it's going to be a rocky session today.

O'BRIEN: Wow. There it is, yes. All right. Andy, thank you very much for watching that.

SERWER: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Coming up this morning on CNN, we're expecting to hear comments from U.S. officials in Baghdad in the wake of that car bombing that took the life of the president of Iraq's Governing Council. That's coming up in the next hour with Daryn Kagan on "CNN LIVE TODAY."

AMERICAN MORNING is back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: And that's it for AMERICAN MORNING on a Monday. Daryn Kagan is at the CNN Center. She's going to take you through the next few hours on "CNN LIVE TODAY."

Hey Daryn. Good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, Soledad and Billy, and the whole crew up there in New York City. We'll go ahead and get started here in Atlanta.

We are at the CNN headquarters, and I'm Daryn Kagan. And let's get started with a check of the headlines.

Black plumes of smoke mark what is being called a deliberate political assassination. Suicide bombers blast. It killed Iraqi Governing Council President Issedine Salim today in Baghdad. A group calling itself the Air Resistance Movement is claiming responsibility.

At least four other Iraqis were killed in the attack. Six Iraqis and two U.S. soldiers are injured. We'll have a live report just ahead.


Aired May 17, 2004 - 9:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Terror strike in Baghdad, dealing a dire blow to the country's Governing Council.
And what's behind the big fly for President Bush? New polls, new lows for his approval ratings.

And it is wedding day in Massachusetts. Same-sex couples getting married, and it's all legal, on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It's 9:00 here in New York. Good morning, everyone. Other stories this hour...

The first U.S. soldier to face a court-martial in the prison abuse scandal goes to trial this week. We'll talk to the lawyer for Specialist Jeremy Sivits, telling a different story than some of his fellow soldiers who are also charged. That's coming up.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, Senator John McCain has said again and again and again he will not join fellow Senator John Kerry on the Democratic ticket. So why is everybody still talking about that? Jeff Greenfield is going to try to answer that one for us.

HEMMER: All right. To Jack Cafferty.

Good morning.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

Olympic games in Athens this summer. Should American athletes not wave this country's flag in the event they are victorious? Some Olympic officials are cautioning against it, saying that it could engender hostility on the part of the crowd. You can e-mail us your thoughts on that subject at am@cnn.com.

O'BRIEN: Interesting question today. All right, Jack, thanks.

Top stories now.

Starting today in Massachusetts, thousands of people are showing their support for gay marriage at city hall. People began lining up as the city of Cambridge began giving out same-sex marriage licenses. Today marks the first day that gay couples can legally be married in the state of Massachusetts. The federal government now promising to put cheaper life-saving AIDS medications on the fast track to get hard-hit nations on board. The FDA will propose new guidelines for quicker approval of HIV combination drugs. It is part of the president's $15 billion AIDS relief proposal.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: The Iraqi Governing Council already selecting a successor after a car bomb attack earlier today killed the President of the Iraqi Governing Council outside coalition headquarters in Baghdad. That blast also killing up to six Iraqis near a checkpoint heading into the Green Zone. The head of the council says the attack will not cause them to retreat from the march toward a new Iraq.

To Baghdad straight away and Harris Whitbeck for more on this.

Good afternoon there, Harris.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Bill.

As you said, the Iraqi Governing Council took steps shortly after that attack this morning to stabilize itself. It named a new President. As you know, the presidency of the Governing Council is a rotating post, and it was taken up by the man who was supposed to take it in June, a Sunni Muslim from the city of Mosul. He will remain as President of the Governing Council until the handover takes place next June 30.

Now, the attack this morning did rattle a few nerves. Many people here concerned about continued safety and stability in Iraq as the date of the handover continues. And some councilmembers expressed concern about that. They said that both the coalition authorities and the Iraqi Governing Council itself need to take a closer look how to deal with the insecurity in the Iraqi capital -- Bill.

HEMMER: Harris, what type of security is given to the members of the Iraqi Governing Council, especially the President of the IGC?

WHITBECK: Well, they travel with bodyguards. In fact, his bodyguards were highly visible this morning, particularly when his body was taken to an area hospital. His bodyguards were right around that body. And he was traveling in a convoy of several vehicles.

But from what eyewitnesses say on the ground, not very little attention was being paid to the routine that he would operate under on a daily basis because they say that there was a small red car waiting at the coalition checkpoint for the president's convoy to arrive, which would indicate that they knew that he was going to be doing that. So, again, lots of bodyguards and lots of vehicles, but not much else as far as we could tell.

HEMMER: What a tragedy it is. Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad.

Soledad? O'BRIEN: The Senate Foreign Relations Committee holds hearings this week on the transition to Iraqi sovereignty six weeks from now. Indiana Republican Richard Lugar, who chairs the committee, joined us earlier on AMERICAN MORNING, and I asked him what effect an attack like, the one this morning, might have on the impending handover.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR (R), SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, they will not undermine the handover. That is going to occur, and clearly our policymakers are moving to put an Iraqi face on democracy and governance. Likewise, rapidly on security.

But it does indicate that, as that changes, as there is more responsibility assumed by Iraqis, they are clearly in harm's way in the same way that our fighting forces are or that of our allies. In other words, it's a shared responsibility and a share of danger. And as we saw today in this tragic killing, the Iraqis will not be intimidated. The Governing Council is going to continue on, but, nevertheless, the loss is severe and this type of disruption is certainly unwanted.

O'BRIEN: This is the second time now that I've heard you say put an Iraqi face on the country as soon as possible. Specifically, what do you mean? And explain to me what then the role of the U.S. and the U.S. military is under the scenario that you're discussing.

LUGAR: Well, essentially, Secretary Powell at the World Economic Forum answered an important question of his colleagues there. And they said, hypothetically, what if the Iraqis on June 30 or thereabouts say to the United States of America, "We really don't want you here any longer?" Would the United States leave?

And Secretary Powell says, "Yes, under the circumstances, we would." Now, he added that he anticipates the Governing Council and the new people that the ambassador from the U.N. is going to name will want the United States, will want others to help in the security. And I believe that they will, too.

But this is certainly a transition in our own thinking in which we're saying, finally, Iraqis are going to have to step up to the plate themselves and make some tough decisions with regard to their security, how it will be coordinated with the United States of America and with others. And we're going to do to have that very rapidly.

O'BRIEN: We started talking this morning about the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. And as I'm sure you well know, presidential adviser, Karl Rove, said that he felt it would take a full generation before everyone essentially got over the scandal to some degree. How do you see the impact of this scandal affecting really Iraq's ability to get back on track and the relationship between the U.S. and Iraq?

LUGAR: Well, the relationship has not been helped. But let me just say, for Iraqis who are under fire, such as we've seen this tragic case of the provisional President killed this morning, their attention is really on governance, it's on survival, at least of democratic elements that they hope will come forward on survival of their country as a whole.

As bad as the president's scandal may be, there could very well be lots of other scandals and difficulties along the way. But the major objectives are not going to be deterred. And we have to be working carefully, day by day, in the midst of everything else that is being commented on, on these elements of transition, of getting at least the hopes for democracy, democracy-building into the Iraqi system with enough security that the Iraqis, themselves, who are taking responsibility are not routinely killed and eliminated and, thus, cause disruption.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was Indiana Senator Richard Lugar, the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee joining us earlier this morning.

Bill?

HEMMER: Well, the topic of Iraq continues to have an adverse effect on President Bush's poll numbers. A new CNN-TIME poll shows the president's approval rating at 46 percent, compared to 49 who disapprove. And in a head-to-head battle with presumptive Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry, Kerry leading 51 to 46 percent in the latest polling numbers.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, the first of four U.S. soldiers prepares to face military justice this week. We're going to hear who he says is responsible for prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib.

HEMMER: Also, he keeps saying no, but could John McCain become John Kerry's running mate? Analysis on that from Jeff Greenfield on that in a moment.

O'BRIEN: Also, "Troy" triumphs, but Rocky has a fight on his hands. "90-Second Pop" is coming up just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: The Pentagon today again denying the latest claims about the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal contained in a New Yorker report by investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. In the current issue of The New Yorker Magazine, Hersh reports that the abuse at Aug Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad, resulted from a secret plan approved by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, which included tougher interrogation methods to fight the insurgents.

Earlier here on AMERICAN MORNING, Seymour Hersh told us the abuses at the prison must have come from above those soldiers actually seen in the notorious pictures.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEYMOUR HERSH, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: The truth of the matter is that the civilians are running that prison. And just who they are, we don't know. And if anybody thinks that six or seven kids decided a way to get to the Iraqi male is to humiliate them sexually, the idea that some kids from rural America would know the sophistication of that, is pretty amazing. There was somebody much higher up involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: That was Seymour Hersh from last hour. Part of that statement from the Department of Defense reads -- I'm quoting now -- "The article in this week's New Yorker Magazine by Seymour Hersh is based on what appears to be a single anonymous source that makes dramatically false assertions. The burden of proof for these false claims rests upon the reporter."

Well, Army Specialist Jeremy Sivits faces a court-martial in Baghdad. Two days away now for his alleged role in that scandal. He's the first of four U.S. soldiers to face military justice this week. The charges against Specialist Sivits include: conspiracy to maltreat subordinates and detainees, dereliction of duty, and cruelty and maltreatment of detainees.

Retired Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel David Beck is a civilian military attorney and a former judge advocate general. He's live in Knoxville, Tennessee, to talk about this case and more.

Good morning, Colonel. Thanks for joining us here on AMERICAN MORNING.

COL. DAVID BECK (RET.), CIVILIAN MILITARY ATTORNEY: Good morning, Bill. Thank you for having me.

HEMMER: First matters first. A special court-martial, how is that different from a regular court-martial?

BECK: Well, a general court-martial, before you can go to trial by general court-martial, there has to be an Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a grand jury hearing similar to an indictment. A special court-martial requires no Article 32 hearing, requires no indictment. It's convened, referred by the convening authority, the commanding general, the commander with responsibility for the area.

HEMMER: It's my understanding he's going to offer a plea deal, Specialist Sivits will. How will that impact his case?

BECK: Well, it depends on what the plea deal is. Just like in the civilian world, a plea bargain will include an agreement by Specialist Sivits to provide truthful testimony and, in return, an exchange for that plea. There does not have to be a trial of the facts. There will have to be a thorough providency (ph) inquiry to be sure that he really is guilty. But in exchange for that, he will receive something in the form of either a reduced or suspended sentence.

HEMMER: I see. Listen, in a case like this, how much is it one person's word against the other? And as you answer that, consider the photos that are out there, too, as evidence.

BECK: Well, it's not one person's word against the other. There are photographs that we have seen, there are videos and photographs that have not been seen which the defense will have the right and the prosecution can use in evidence.

There are also witnesses. There is the young specialist who had the courage to come forward to report this abuse. There are also, Bill -- and nobody has talked about the Iraqi detainees and prisoners themselves who were victims. If they are willing to come forward, they will be available as witnesses. So there is -- and then there is also the possibility of those who haven't gone to trial yet, deciding as the evidence mounts, that they may want to try to get some kind of plea bargain also.

HEMMER: Talk about the potential for a defense here. There is one report out that says the conditions of the prison were, "the most deplorable, inhumane conditions any soldiers had to experience." It talked about 14 to 18 hour work days, seven days a week. Can you, as a soldier, say I was under stress and I will use that stress as my defense?

BECK: They may try to use it as a defense, but that's bunk. Tell that to the troops who are on the frontlines, dodging rocket- propelled grenades. They're working 18 to 20, to 24 hours a day. The fact that they're working long hours, that the conditions aren't great, is a part of war.

Does it cause stress? Certainly. Is that a defense? Absolutely not.

We have young men and women who are on the front lines, who are in the air, who are on the ships and the carriers working those kind of hours. And if you tell that to some of our World War II and Vietnam veterans, I am sure they will give a resounding no, that's not a defense.

HEMMER: I'm running out of time. I want to get to two topics again here, if I could.

The article in The New Yorker, Seymour Hersh, I don't know if you've seen it or not. But if you have, or even have not, maybe you're aware of the headlines out of that. Is it plausible to you that the techniques used in Abu Ghraib were imported essentially from Afghanistan, learned there prior, and even Guantanamo Bay in Cuba?

BECK: It is plausible. It needs to be thoroughly investigated, because part of the charges these soldiers are facing -- and this doesn't excuse what they did -- that was inhumane and wrong -- but they're charged with conspiracy. Conspiracy means an agreement, others telling.

It needs to be thoroughly investigated all the way up the chain of command because too many times in recent years, those responsible in the chain of command at the highest ranks are denying responsibility or they're reprimanded and nothing else is done. If that happened in this case, then there not only needs to be resignations of high-ranking officers and civilian administrators, there needs to be criminal investigations.

HEMMER: Don't have much time, but I want to get your response to this: how do you defend the right to a fair trial knowing that Specialist Sivits will face this in Baghdad, in a military court, with the eyes of the world essentially watching this based on the headlines?

BECK: The eyes of the world is good. The fact that the media there is good, because the 1st Amendment does apply in the military.

A fair trial with all of the publicity that's been out there, it's difficult, it will be up for his lawyers. That's probably why they've got a plea bargain. But one of the big issues that's going to come up in all these cases is unlawful command influence, because the outcry that has arisen and the fact that the President and the secretary of defense have made the comments they have, will make it difficult and the issue of unlawful command influence will be huge.

HEMMER: Listen, come back later in the week. We'd love to talk to you again. Colonel Dave Beck there in Knoxville, Tennessee. Thank you, sir.

BECK: You're welcome.

HEMMER: Soledad?

O'BRIEN: Today marks the 50th anniversary of Brown v. the Board of Education, the historic Supreme Court decision that outlawed segregation in public schools. But 50 years later, African-American students are still feeling a racial divide.

A recent Gallup poll asked whether educational opportunities for black children have improved. Ninety-two percent of whites said yes, 77 percent of blacks said yes, and 23 percent said no. On the question of whether black and White children have equally opportunities, 63 percent of whites and 34 percent of blacks said yes. But 31 percent of whites and 68 percent of blacks said they do not.

Earlier on AMERICAN MORNING, we were joined by Education Secretary Rod Paige, the first African-American to hold that position, and we asked him based on these poll numbers, how can the minority students be convinced of a fair education in America today?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROD PAIGE, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: We see leadership from the President, we see leadership from the Congress. Now it's time for the other leadership to step up and send a signal that there is a high expectation for all kids, that education is the key to the future. Our heroes in the past, our leaders in the past already told us this, and so we just need to renew that effort. It can be done, and we're doing it now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Secretary Paige earlier this morning.

President Bush today will attend the official opening of a national historic site in Topeka, marking the 50th anniversary of that Brown v. Board of Education decision. And CNN will carry the president's remarks live at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

Bill?

HEMMER: About 20 minutes past the hour, Soledad. In a moment, the Iraqi Governing Council vowing again today not to retreat. A car bomb taking the life of its President. More on that in a moment.

And in Massachusetts, making history today. Same-sex couples come together. We just witnessed the first same-sex marriage today. We'll go there live in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Time to check in with Jack and the Question of the Day.

Hello.

CAFFERTY: Good morning.

U.S. Olympic officials warning athletes not to celebrate by waving the American flag during the Athens Olympics this summer. According to the London Telegraph, they are worried that it could provoke hostility from the crowd and worsen America's already battered image.

But the tradition of athletes waving the American flag goes in celebration goes back a long way. Remember George Foreman of the '68 games? The question is this: should American athletes not wave the flag at the summer Olympic games?

We've gotten a lot of mail, and most of it, at least as far as I can tell, says we ought to be waving the flag, regardless of who likes it or who doesn't. That's most of it. Some feel otherwise.

Trevor in Sacramento writes this: "I don't equate Afghan Olympians with the Taliban or bin Laden. I have no problem watching the thrill of an Iraqi soccer player after scoring a goal or making a great play. It's not too much to ask for the same sportsmanship in return if an American feels elated enough to do a victory lap."

Michael in Farmingdale says, "If our athletes win a competition, they have a right to show our flag. If the rest of the world finds this unacceptable, who needs them anyway? Am I the only American who finds saving the rest of the world from themselves as getting to be a bit tedious? We save Europe from fascism, the Iraqis from a despot, and the worldwide destain we get for our efforts in return is disgusting."

John in Madison has a different idea. "Moving past the political rhetoric, one does have to be concerned about security. Athletes are not soldiers. It is not criticism and whether or not others like us that we need to be concerned about. Given the uncertain state of security at the Olympic games, we should be asking if we want our athletes to be waving a target, not waving a flag." And Craig in Nashville says, "If the Olympics had been held in October of 2001, everyone would have been waving American flags. The arrogant foreign policy of this administration has definitely wasted that goodwill and support, and has made American lives unsafe traveling abroad."

The other thing, somebody pointed out the parallels that exist in the world in general between what's going on in the Middle East now and what was going on in the Middle East in the -- in 1972, when the Israeli athletes were kidnapped and later murdered at the Munich Olympic games. A lot of parallels politically, violence in the Middle East, a lot of things going on there.

HEMMER: What is the chance you win a gold medal and you're a young American athlete and you keep that flag in your pocket? I'd say the tendency is to go ahead and let your emotions show.

CAFFERTY: It will be interesting to see.

HEMMER: All right, Jack.

Let's get a break here. In a moment, is the Italian stallion ready for Broadway? That and baby news. What's in a name? Ask the actress, Gwyneth Paltrow. We'll take a shot at that. "90-Second Pop" right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Ahead in this half-hour, Jeff Greenfield is going to take a look at a persistent political story about John McCain perhaps joining John Kerry on the Democratic presidential ticket. McCain says no. In fact, he says no about it a lot. But Jeff told us there's a lot more to the story than just the VP speculation. We'll get into that.

HEMMER: Also this half-hour, same-sex couples have started getting married today in Massachusetts. In fact, the first one went down about 30 minutes ago. A very emotional day in that state for people with a wide range of opinions on this topic. Live to Boston in a moment for the latest there today.

O'BRIEN: And first our top story this morning. Suicide bombing in Iraq hitting at a checkpoint in central Baghdad overnight. The explosion left about four to six Iraqis dead, including the president of Iraq's Governing Council. We're going to take you live to the White House for reaction on that coming up in just a moment.

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice holding talks in Berlin today with the Palestinian prime minister. It is another push by the Bush administration to get peace talks between the Israelis and the Palestinians moving forward. Meanwhile, Israeli troops deployed in southern Gaza. The operation being described by Israel as one to stop Palestinian militants moving through that region. Secretary of State Colin Powell delivering a commencement address this morning to students at Wake Forest University. Secretary Powell is returning from the Middle East, where he held talks on the stalled peace efforts between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

And Brad Pitt's Greek epic, "Troy," debuted at number one at the weekend box office. "Troy" wrestled in an estimated $46 million. The film, though, fell short of the $50 million benchmark which is viewed informally in Hollywood as the passing grade for a movie. Hugh Jackson's "Van Helsing" fell to second place.

That's sad when $46 million doesn't cut it. Fifty is the passing grade.

HEMMER: We're terrible. You know, they compare it to "Gladiator." "Gladiator" made $34 million its opening weekend. So this beat that by $12 million, which portends a good sign.

O'BRIEN: Internationally, it will be huge.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: Iraq's U.S.-backed Governing Council has a new leader already today. That's because the council's president was killed when a suicide car bomber struck a checkpoint near Baghdad's so-called Green Zone, where U.S. officials have their offices. That blast also killed at least three other Iraqis, wounded two U.S. soldiers.

Reaction now from the White House on this. To Dana Bash.

Dana, good morning.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

And the first reaction comes from a senior administration official who said, "We condemn this shocking and vile act. It was a tragic loss. The forces who hope to halt Iraq's march toward freedom and democracy will be defeated. The Iraqi people will ensure that Mr. Salim's vision of a free, democratic, prosperous Iraq will become a reality."

Now, this a particular act that comes at a time where the administration is working very hard to try to get international support for the transition of sovereignty that is happening in just six weeks. And there are still lots of questions and not as many answers about how that all will work.

Secretary Powell was working on Arab leaders to get their support over the weekend. The president's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, is in Berlin at this time, talking to some of her European counterparts. All an attempt to get some international support to try to make this happen on target. That is still what the White House is saying at this point, just six weeks away -- Bill.

HEMMER: More throughout the day. Dana, thanks. Dana Bash there on the front lawn. Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, if he said it once, he said it a hundred times. Arizona Republican Senator John McCain is not interested in crossing party lines to become Senator John Kerry's running mate. But that has not stopped the chatter. Saturday's New York Times carried a front page story on the notion. So on the Sunday talk shows, McCain had to say it once again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Categorically, I will not be vice president of the United States. I will not be a candidate. And I mean that.

I'm happy in the Senate. I'd like to maintain my role. I am a loyal Republican. I am supporting President Bush's reelection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: But will the senator's denial silence the Kerry-McCain chorus? And is all of the veep talk concealing a more subtle political point? Those are the questions we pose this morning to our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield, who joins us this morning with his perspective.

Good morning. When I asked Senator McCain this exact question, he said to me, "Soledad, my wife has a T-shirt. It says 'What part of no don't you understand?'" And I said, "Ouch, Senator. OK, point taken."

I thought he meant no, and he said it very clearly. He hasn't been hemming and hawing on the issue. So why haven't people just taken him at his word?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Well, I think there are two groups that are really interested in keeping this alive. One, any number of Democrats who see this ideas as a sure-fire way to win the White House. And McCain is actually more popular than either Bush or Kerry, especially among Independents. And there are also, believe it or not, some political types who think the idea of a national unity ticket is important both to fight the terror threat and to somehow ease the intensely polarized political climate.

And second, of course, there is us. That is, the press. Ever since March, when John Kerry wrapped up the nomination, it's the one official thing to talk about. And the notion of such a dramatic "holy smokes" event, or sometimes called something else in the news business, it's just too tempting to resist.

O'BRIEN: All right. So let's say John McCain means it, he will not take the VP shift, if he, in fact, is even offered it. What do you think is the subtle part of this that McCain is considering?

GREENFIELD: This is where I think it gets interesting. McCain has said, you heard it just a minute ago, he's supporting the president and he'll campaign for him. But McCain has flatly refused to go after John Kerry in any way.

Why does that matter? Because a key part of the Bush campaign strategy is to paint John Kerry as unreliable, weak, a little soft on terror, voting to strip away American defenses. McCain would be a wonderful surrogate to make that point. But he not only doesn't talk about that, he has defended Kerry on any number of occasions.

And for his part, Kerry invokes McCain all of the time in speeches, in an ad. And so what hasn't happened is for John McCain to say to John Kerry publicly, I don't want you using me in your ads, I don't want voters to think in any way I'm backing you. And I haven't even mentioned the extremely sharp criticism McCain has had about the whole basic administration strategy for post-war Iraq.

O'BRIEN: OK. Then give me a sense why. Do you think that to some degree McCain wants Senator Kerry to win but doesn't want to be part of the team?

GREENFIELD: You know, that's above my pay grade. And unless we pump a gallon of sodium pentathlon in it, I don't know how to answer that question.

But this we do know. John McCain and John Kerry share not just a Vietnam combat experience, but they went to Vietnam together to look into the whole missing Americans controversy. They worked together to normalize relations in Vietnam.

McCain has written about the bond they formed. And McCain is one of those rare politicians I think who actually takes these kinds of personal loyalty points seriously.

One other really interesting point, I hope, about the whole VP idea. McCain said yesterday he wants to knock down any idea that he's still angry at Bush for the very hard tactics used in the 2000 South Carolina primaries. I think it is really important to McCain that he not be seen as carrying a personal grudge against the president.

And I'll tell you what it reminds me of. It reminds me a little of Robert Kennedy back in 1967, when people were pushing at him to run against Johnson. And what he said over and over again, he said, look, if I ever ran for president, people would say it was a personal grudge against Johnson, and the issues I have with him on Vietnam would be obscured.

I think McCain believes that if he were to break with Bush politically, it would undermine what he has to say about the prisoners, about Iraq, about terror. Now, one final point, Soledad. At the end, Robert Kennedy did enter the list and ran for president.

O'BRIEN: Bringing us right back to where we started this morning. Even though Senator McCain says, "Soledad, it says no." "What part of no don't you understand?"

Jeff, as always, thanks.

Bill? HEMMER: Soledad, just after midnight, Massachusetts became the first state in the country to sanction same-sex marriages. Eric Philips live in Boston.

The lines are getting long on your stand, Eric. Godo morning. What do you have?

ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bill, good morning to you.

At about 9:00 this morning, the clerk's office here in Boston opened, allowing same-sex couples to begin applying for those long- awaited marriage licenses. And behind me, you can see how the line has been forming since early this morning. Crowds of people waiting to get into Boston City Hall to file those applications.

Just a few moments ago, we saw an entourage of reporters and microphones and cameras following the Goodrich (ph) couple over to the courthouse. They've applied for their license. Now they're going over to the courthouse to seek a waiver.

Here in Massachusetts, there is a three-day rule, whereby you have to wait three days after applying for your application before you can marry. But many of these couples here today plan to seek a waiver of that rule so they can get married today.

Of course, this process has been on a roll in Cambridge, Massachusetts, since early this morning. Just after midnight, one couple that's been together for 27 years filed for their marriage license there. Fifty-two-year-old Susan Shepherd (ph) and 56-year-old Marsha Hams (ph) were the first to receive their license.

Some 5,000 people gathered to throw rice and sing the "Star Spangled Banner" just after midnight. Also, they cut a wedding cake. And there was a very celebratory spirit there.

About 300 showed up there in Cambridge this morning to protest. But again, those who were there to celebrate clearly outnumbered those who were against gay marriage. Many people hoping and praying that they will be able to get married today, despite that three-day rule -- Bill.

HEMMER: Eric Philips in Boston. Thanks for that.

Also, a hearing is scheduled in New York today on same-sex marriages. Weddings were performed back in February by New Paltz Mayor Jason West. He was then charged with more than 20 violations of state law for performing marriages for people who did not have a license.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, those gas-guzzling, road- hugging Hummers. Well, now you can get one at a discount. Andy Serwer has details on that.

HEMMER: Also, Oscar-winning actress Gwyneth Paltrow has delivered her baby. Some are wondering what's with the name? That's part of our "90-Second Pop" in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Oh, you're tempting me. It's in my range.

Good morning, everybody. It's time for the ever popular Monday edition of "90-Second Pop" with our gang of pop culture mavens, humorist Andy Borowitz of theborowitzreport.com; New York Magazine contributing editor, Sarah Bernard; and Toure, contributing editor for Rolling Stone.

Good morning each and every one of you.

TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, ROLLING STONE: I'm confused from "The Sopranos." My head is still spinning. What happened?

O'BRIEN: You spent all weekend in watching TV?

TOURE: How do you know what happened?

ANDY BOROWITZ, HUMORIST: I'm still confused about "Meet the Press."

O'BRIEN: A lot of people still confused about "Meet the Press" with the secretary of state on. But that's another story. And you know what? Neither of those topics are actually in "90-Second Pop" today. But Gwyneth Paltrow, new baby.

SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Very, very large baby.

O'BRIEN: You know how big a 9 pound 11 -- that's like this big.

BOROWITZ: How is that physically possible to come out of Gwyneth Paltrow?

O'BRIEN: Because she is tiny.

TOURE: It's not as hard as twins, though. That's the challenge. Let's talk about that.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: We're getting off topic here. She named the baby something weird, though.

BERNARD: She named the baby Apple!

O'BRIEN: I don't know if I hate it or love it.

BERNARD: We need a code breaker for this. I don't understand. I've been trying to figure this out since Saturday.

O'BRIEN: It's Apple Blythe...

BERNARD: It's Apple Blythe Alison Martin. And the "Blythe" and "Alison" are their moms' names. So that I understand. But the apple, I mean the only thing I can think of is Apple Martin, apple martini.

O'BRIEN: I love apple martinis, and that was my first thought!

BERNARD: That's what it is.

TOURE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a Beatles reference, because Chris Martin has got to be a big Beatles head. Apple was the name of the Beatles' label. Every Beatles head would know that. So perhaps they're thinking in that sort of terms.

BOROWITZ: But when you're naming your kid Apple, aren't you just giving schoolyard bullies like a head start?

O'BRIEN: They don't even have to try.

BOROWITZ: The only other choice is like stupid and...

O'BRIEN: Let's talk about "Rocky," because actually big lawsuit between Sylvester Stallone and MGM.

BOROWITZ: Right. Well, Sylvester Stallone is suing MGM because MGM is trying to prevent him from doing "Rocky," the Broadway musical.

Now, I just think there are other obstacles tot his getting off the ground. Like, how do you cast this thing? Because you have to find a Broadway musical star who can throw a punch. And other than Liza Minelli, I can't really think of anybody who can fill the bill.

O'BRIEN: And doesn't he want to continue to be in the "Rocky" -- I mean, he looks great. I'll give him that.

BOROWITZ: Yes. He must be stopped.

O'BRIEN: The guy looks good. But he's like...

TOURE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) lawsuit, which is just like a creative injunction?

BERNARD: No more Rocky!

TOURE: So just stop!

BOROWITZ: He wants to make Rocky VI. That's what we're...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: That's a brilliant idea. Someone might do that. Let's talk about season finales. Of course, "Frasier" is gone, "Friends" gone. There are certain shows you say should be gone, Toure, that aren't.

TOURE: "The Swan" is so disgusting and...

O'BRIEN: That is the one where plastic surgery is done on people? TOURE: Yes, you get plastic surgery, but it's part of a competition. So after the doctors do all the plastic surgery on you, then we see who is prettier. At that point...

O'BRIEN: Your self-esteem is down here.

TOURE: How do you have self-esteemless (ph) people in this competition?

BERNARD: I completely agree with you.

TOURE: This is typical Fox tasteless disgusting (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

O'BRIEN: You guys, as always, thank you very much, Andy and Sarah and Toure.

Bill?

HEMMER: All right, Soledad. Thanks.

Medical news now 13 minutes before the hour. Obesity is the underlying cause of many health problems such as diabetes and strokes and heart attacks. Now a new study says body fat plays a role in breast cancer. Our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, at the CNN Center to talk about how women can reduce this risk.

Elizabeth, good morning. What have you found out?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

Bill, the connection between being too heavy and heart disease is pretty intuitive. I think people get that. Being too fat can put too much of a burden on the heart. But the connection between being heavy and breast cancer is not as intuitive. So let's talk about why it's true.

Fat actually makes estrogen. Estrogen is made by fat cells. And so when people have too much fat, that raises the level of estrogen in their bodies, and that, in turn, raises the risk of breast cancer. So that is why there is this connection that's been found in many different studies between being heavy and higher risk of breast cancer.

Now, this study, Bill, a hundred thousand women. That's huge. It's something women really need to think about, because it's one of the few things you can do to lower your risk of breast cancer. Keeping a healthy weight is one of the few things you can do -- Bill.

HEMMER: Does it matter where the body fat is? Some say some fat in certain parts of the body is worse than others. Is that a fact?

COHEN: You know what? Studies have gone back and forth on this several different times. Some studies show that if the fat is around a woman's belly that that's worse. Some say if it's around her rear end and her hips that that's worse. They've gone back and forth. The bottom line is probably just that any kind of fat is bad. That it's not good to be heavy for all sorts of reasons, including, as we know now, breast cancer.

HEMMER: Back to your original answer here, are younger overweight women more at risk?

COHEN: You know what? They're not when it comes to this certain cause of breast cancer. And let me explain why.

For post-menopausal women, being overweight is an important cause it appears of breast cancer. For women who have not yet hit menopause, it doesn't really matter so much. Younger women have so much es estrogen in their bodies anyway that it doesn't really matter so much if they're heavy.

But it's important to keep in mind that if you're heavy pre- menopausally (ph), there's a very good chance that you're probably going to be heavy post-meopausally (ph). So lose the weight as early as you can.

HEMMER: Thanks, Elizabeth. See you later.

COHEN: See you.

HEMMER: All right.

Soledad?

Still to come this morning, a sign of the times as Hummer salesmen aross the country wheel and deal like never before, all in the hopes of making a sale. Andy Serwer is up next with that story.

And we're back in a moment on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Perhaps the loudest and proudest of the big SUVs is now offering rebates. With that, and a check of the markets, Andy Serwer 'Minding Your Business.'

Let's check the markets first, because, of course, as we talked right at the half-hour, the market opened and we were expecting some bad news.

ANDY SERWER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: Yes. And a downdraft, indeed, has occurred with stocks this morning. Let's check the Big Board here.

We're down -- well, we kind of recovered a little bit. Only down 60 points. We were down over a hundred earlier.

Nasdaq getting beat up a little bit worse, down over a percent. One stock moving to the upside, we talked about it improving fortunes there. K-mart, the stock is up $2 to $46. Lowe's having some good numbers. They're down, though, a little bit. Limited doing OK. What's going on this morning? Well, the price of oil is up. We all know that. Now (ph) up over $41, heading to $42.

O'BRIEN: To what degree is that linked to what we were teasing before, which is the Hummer now on a massive discount?

SERWER: Well, I think it has a lot to do with that. You know, for months now, Detroit has been saying high gas prices have not impacted SUV sales. Well, guess what? Three dollar gasoline will do it.

And you've seen this here with Hummers. The prices of these things have been hurt because now GM is starting to roll out rebates for the first time ever. Sales of these babies are down eight months in a row, down 24 percent this year.

And here is the salient point: 11 miles to the gallon is what a Hummer gets. So, you know, that will hurt you.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

SERWER: I just got in my ear someone telling me the Dow is back down a lot more. It's down 115 points. So it's going to be a rocky session today.

O'BRIEN: Wow. There it is, yes. All right. Andy, thank you very much for watching that.

SERWER: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Coming up this morning on CNN, we're expecting to hear comments from U.S. officials in Baghdad in the wake of that car bombing that took the life of the president of Iraq's Governing Council. That's coming up in the next hour with Daryn Kagan on "CNN LIVE TODAY."

AMERICAN MORNING is back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: And that's it for AMERICAN MORNING on a Monday. Daryn Kagan is at the CNN Center. She's going to take you through the next few hours on "CNN LIVE TODAY."

Hey Daryn. Good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, Soledad and Billy, and the whole crew up there in New York City. We'll go ahead and get started here in Atlanta.

We are at the CNN headquarters, and I'm Daryn Kagan. And let's get started with a check of the headlines.

Black plumes of smoke mark what is being called a deliberate political assassination. Suicide bombers blast. It killed Iraqi Governing Council President Issedine Salim today in Baghdad. A group calling itself the Air Resistance Movement is claiming responsibility.

At least four other Iraqis were killed in the attack. Six Iraqis and two U.S. soldiers are injured. We'll have a live report just ahead.