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American Morning

Prisoner Abuse Scandal; 9/11 Investigation

Aired May 19, 2004 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: It's a beautiful shot of the fountain, isn't it? Another beautiful day here in New York City. Welcome back, everybody. Just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
There has already been a ruling in the first court-martial in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Barbara Starr is standing by for us this morning at the Pentagon with more on that, and also a key Senate hearing today, where top commanders will be grilled on just what happened at Abu Ghraib prison.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It was quick today in Baghdad, wasn't it? Waiting for the sentencing now. So, we'll stay tuned for that.

Also, another emotional day of testimony expected today in lower Manhattan. The former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani appears before the 9/11 Commission. In a moment we'll talk to one member of that panel, Richard Ben-Veniste, about what he and his colleagues are looking for today, day two of at that two-day session.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to our top stories first, though, this morning.

In the Middle East, more fighting in Gaza. Let's take a look at these pictures just in to CNN. Palestinian sources say that at least seven are dead in the latest fighting there taking place at the Rafah (ph) refugee camp. It has been the scene of violence for several days now. You can see the massive crowds out there. We're going to have more on this story as we get more information on exactly what has happened. But this information just coming into CNN at this hour.

And then in Iraq, more clashes reported between U.S. forces and the fighters loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Battles have been ongoing in the Iraqi holy city of Karbala. The U.S. military is accusing the militiamen of firing on American forces from a holy Muslim shrine.

In health news, a new report finds that there is no evidence a controversial mercury-based vaccine preservative causes autism. The Institute of Medicine says the preservative mound in measles, mumps and rubella vaccines does not cause the neurological disorder. Five different studies were done. There's been much speculation, though, about the link between autism and the vaccines.

In sports, the Indiana Pacers and the Miami Heat surprising season in game six of the series last night. The Pacers beat the Heat 73-70, stopping Miami's 18-game home winning streak. The Pacers finish the series with a 4-2 win, and they move on to the Eastern Conference finals.

HEMMER: And we showed it about 30 minutes ago, Randy Johnson threw a perfect game last night against the Braves.

O'BRIEN: Only 17 in the history of baseball.

HEMMER: He's 40 years young.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

HEMMER: And Rob Marciano...

O'BRIEN: And I keep saying the poor guy is the oldest, he's the oldest person, you think he's going to be 97 years old.

HEMMER: And then you have Roger Clemens, what, age 42, down in Houston, 7-0, already this year.

O'BRIEN: Forty is the new 20.

(WEATHER BREAK)

HEMMER: The first American soldier accused in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners pleading guilty earlier today to three charges in Baghdad. Meanwhile, a senior Army official says that military officials in Iraq responded to a Red Cross report of abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison by trying to curtail the international agencies' inspections there. Also in about an hour from now in Washington, Senate hearings begin this morning on the abuse scandal.

Let's get you to the Pentagon right now and Barbara Starr for more this half-hour.

Barbara -- good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.

Well, CNN has learned that senior military commanders had heard reports of detainee abuse as far back as beginning in December. Reports that detainees were being stripped naked, being made to wear female underwear. They began to look into it. They did not find direct evidence at that time. And as one senior military commander said, we had collective disbelief that any such thing could be going on.

But this morning, as you say, top generals will be in the hot seat in front of Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice over): Three senior commanders will face tough questions about whether the policies on handling Iraqi prisoners may have gone astray and who was responsible beyond the seven soldiers facing charges of criminal abuse. THOMAS MORRISON, ASSOCIATE DEAN, G.W. UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: If, in fact, the evidence comes out that there were these junior people issued orders to do things that were objectionable, that were violations of the Army regulations, I certainly think that there will be an investigation upward.

STARR: Testifying, General John Abizaid, the Central Command chief. Senators likely to ask whether he now believes there were Geneva Convention violations. Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, coalition commander. Did his directive last year, opening the door to interrogations using sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation, go awry, somehow leading to hooding, stripping naked and sexual humiliation? And Major General Geoffrey Miller, now running prison operations, facing tough questions about his proposal last year to have military police take a more active role to get intelligence from prisoners.

MAJ. GEN. GEORFREY MILLER, U.S. ARMY: No way was there any authorization for military police to be actively involved in interrogation. They are not trained to do that. They don't do that kind of business.

STARR: There is no evidence that these top generals knew of criminal abuse.

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. ARMY: The investigations are not complete. But I can tell you that there was no policy direction that would have led to that kind of an incident.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: So, Bill, expect to see a long investigation, both inside the U.S. military and on Capitol Hill.

HEMMER: Back to this issue of the Red Cross. What's the Pentagon saying about some reports out there, Barbara, that indicate the Red Cross warned of that prisoner abuse back in the fall but nothing was done until January? The response is what?

STARR: Well, that is something that the Pentagon is now sorting out, because what we have also learned is that ICRC report never made it to the top chain of command. General Ricardo Sanchez never saw that ICRC report. It was at a lower level. It was being dealt with there.

Now General Sanchez is making sure he sees all of the reports, and that he's directly aware of the responses and what is being done. The actual response to that ICRC report is still something the top commanders are trying to sort out.

HEMMER: All right, Barbara, thanks for that. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Fifty-one minutes away and counting now to today's hearings on Capitol Hill. Testimony starts before the Senate Armed Services Committee. The generals will be there, Abizaid, Geoffrey Miller and Sanchez. We'll have it live for you live at 8:30 a.m. Eastern Time -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Just over a mile from ground zero, the 9/11 Commission convenes a second day of hearings here in New York City. The panel focused on the emergency response after the twin towers were hit. Yesterday, commissioners took city officials to task for not being better prepared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB KERREY, 9/11 COMMISSION: Ample reason to believe that New York City as the financial and media capital of the world is going to be the target, and we didn't give it the primary attention. God help Congress and the administration if a third time this city is attacked and more people die than are necessary and more people die in response than are necessary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani is scheduled to testify in about an hour.

Joining us this morning, Richard Ben-Veniste. He's a member of the 9/11 Commission.

Good morning. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming in.

RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: Good morning. How are you?

O'BRIEN: I'm well, thank you.

We just heard what Bob Kerrey had to say, and it was obviously very strong, very pointed, and he got applause from the crowd there. In your investigation, from what you've heard in testimony now over months, how prepared is New York City specifically for another attack?

BEN-VENISTE: Well, they are better prepared, but I don't think we are there yet where we want them to be. We talked about a number of areas of command and control, unified command decisions, improving the 9/11 telephone emergency response. That would be a major plus to be interactive in that process so that people who call in can get useful information.

O'BRIEN: To actually have it work, some people would say.

BEN-VENISTE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Because there were lots of failures. And, in fact, the testimony showed there was squabbling between the police and fire department, a breakdown completely in communication, or to a large degree. Maybe that's more fair to say. A lack of information that was available to the 9/11 operators that some of the exits to the roof were actually locked. I mean, really a litany of pretty shocking and pretty awful information to hear.

What do you think was the most egregious thing you heard that really needs to be fixed first?

BEN-VENISTE: Well, I think the communication system needs to be fixed so that the fire department and police can talk to one another and information can be shared. But, you know, there were some negatives. There were, obviously, things that went wrong, but there's a lot that went right. A lot of people were saved. Most of the people were evacuated. When we think of the size of that building and the enormity of the attack, in this catastrophe many more lives could have been lost but for the incredible, the incredible bravery of the first responders here in New York, the fire department, the police who lost brothers in unmentionable numbers that day.

So, there was room for improvement, Soledad, and we are trying to make the city safer by making recommendations that can be adopted, some of which have already come forward.

O'BRIEN: How much clout will those recommendations have? Because, of course, here especially in New York City as we both know having lived here for a long time, a lot of that is money. I mean, you want to improve the communications as to making a recommendation is a great idea. But who is going to pay for it? Who is going to pick it? How are you going to make sure it works?

BEN-VENISTE: You are exactly right. And we did focus yesterday somewhat on the disparity between the allocation of funds to improve the protective stance of our urban areas. Obviously, with all due respect to Moline (ph) or other cities in the Midwest, which are not likely targets, New York City, Washington, D.C., Chicago, L.A., they are in the crosshairs, and that's where our efforts ought to be made, and that's where the money ought to be allocated.

O'BRIEN: Rudy Giuliani, as we mentioned, is testifying today. What do you want to ask him? What do you want to hear from him?

BEN-VENISTE: Well, Rudy and I are old friends.

O'BRIEN: Right. So, what do you want to ask him? What do you want to hear from him?

BEN-VENISTE: We'll talk about -- in addition to some of the heroics on the day of 9/11, we'll talk about why the communications were not better, why the radios were not standardized, why the 9/11 system did not work efficiently in a helpful way. And I will focus on cooperation between federal and state authorities, particularly with respect to intelligence-sharing. There's got to be a better way for the federal government, particularly the FBI, to utilize local law enforcement agencies, particularly New York PD, sharing information, force multiplying by using the incredible resources here.

O'BRIEN: 9/11 Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste, nice to have you. Thanks for coming in to talk to us today.

BEN-VENISTE: Thank you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Bill. HEMMER: Soledad, a couple of things, we're learning more about what was thrown at the British prime minister, Tony Blair. More on that in a moment.

Also, watching a developing story in Gaza today. At least seven are dead after an Israeli helicopter fired into a crowd. That's the report we're getting in Gaza. We'll sort through the details in a moment here on that -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, also this morning, abusive interrogation of prisoners by American service personnel. No surprise to some observers. What lessons can be learned from Abu Ghraib. That's head on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Welcome back, everybody.

For most of us, the photos that brought the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal to life were shocking indeed. But the disturbing reality is that for some people, they clearly were not. That's what Mark Bowden writes about anyway in an essay titled "The Lessons of Abu Ghraib." It appears in the upcoming July/August issue of "The Atlantic Monthly" magazine. Good to have Mark back on our program.

Good morning to you.

MARK BOWDEN, "THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY": Thank you, Bill.

HEMMER: Take that lead-in. What do you mean by that?

BOWDEN: Well, I mean that, you know, Donald Rumsfeld knew about the existence of these photographs and had reports for months before they were made public, and I think he knew they were going to be made public. And so, in fact, on the day that "60 Minutes" aired for the first time those photographs, he briefed congressional Republicans and never even mentioned it. So, I mean, what that suggests to me, he's not a stupid man. He knew they were going to become public anyway. He didn't think they were that big of a deal.

HEMMER: In addition to this, though, members of Congress had letters written to them by the families of the accused right now, and there was no action taken on behalf of Congress either. Is it likely that a lot of people did not think these photos would be, (a), as bad as they turned out to be, and, (b), as incendiary for the American public and the Iraqi people?

BOWDEN: I think the latter. I think that they weren't adept or they were so tone deaf they failed to anticipate the impact that these pictures would have both in the Western world and in the Arab world.

HEMMER: You say that coercive interrogation should be completely banned. Define that first.

BOWDEN: Well, I think that, you know, you should assume, first of all, that in any kind of prison environment and particularly in a war zone, you are going to have abuses in prisons. And so, the rules ought to be very strict. Coercive interrogation means using any methods that make the life of the person under interrogation uncomfortable, off balance, frightened, humiliated, whatever. All are very potentially successful tactics for interrogation, but they ought to be employed only in the rarest of cases.

HEMMER: Help me understand then. When you are trying to save lives and you're trying to prosecute a war, what's acceptable?

BOWDEN: I think what's acceptable is that you use coercive methods of interrogation, which are methods that are effective, shown to be more effective.

HEMMER: Such as what?

BOWDEN: Such as sleep deprivation.

HEMMER: Would you stop there?

BOWDEN: It would depend on the case. I think in the case of someone like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (ph), one of the top leaders of al Qaeda, I think that that -- you can make a fairly convincing case for going to extreme lengths to get information from him in what they call ticking bomb scenarios, but I think these are very rare cases. And my feeling is that it ought to be banned when interrogators take it upon themselves to use these methods, they ought to be prepared to defend themselves and to defend their decision to have used them. But it ought to be against the rules.

HEMMER: What you're suggesting then, I believe, is that it depends on the individual case. It's a subjective decision.

BOWDEN: I think that any time an interrogator uses these methods on a prisoner to get information he ought to know or she ought to know that they are breaking the rules and they could potentially be held liable for doing so. I think that's the only way to limit the use of those tactics to situations where it's warranted.

HEMMER: Have you thought for a moment what happens after Sivits? The plea has been entered. We're waiting for a decision on the punishment from the judge. There are others who are lined up, and they will proceed in the next coming weeks or months. The end result of this is what?

BOWDEN: Well, I hope that the end result is that the military will ban the use of these practices across the board. I think there's no question that the Bush administration has authorized the use of coercive methods on a fairly large scale. And I think when you do that, you make these kinds of abuses inevitable. So, I hope that the upshot is that they decide to ban it.

HEMMER: We're about 39 minutes away from another hearing today in D.C., and we will hear more on this. Mark Bowden, thanks for coming in and sharing with us today.

BOWDEN: Thank you, Bill. HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, we are following this developing story out of Gaza. At least seven people dead when an Israeli helicopter fires at a crowd. We're going to sort through the details on that. Our Matthew Chance is standing by for us for a live report just ahead.

And also, things get a little too rowdy at the British House of Commons this morning. We're going to explain what happened. You can see some powder or something thrown at the prime minister. That's ahead. AMERICAN MORNING is back right after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Jack Cafferty has got the question of the day.

Hello.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: How are you doing?

Politicians in Washington are busy blaming each other for high gas prices, but there are some real reasons that prices may be above two bucks a gallon -- increased demand from China, turmoil in the Middle East, the risk of supply interruptions, peak driving season here in the U.S.

Democrats want to trap -- trap -- tap the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and get some oil out of there. They want OPEC to increase production. The White House says it's Congress' fault they haven't passed the energy bill.

There's an e-mail going around, calling for a nationwide boycott of gasoline today. Most people say it won't make much of a difference, because you'll either buy your gas yesterday or tomorrow.

So the question is: Who is to blame for record-high gas prices?

We begin with Ben, who says: "It's you and me, the American consumers who are to blame for high gas prices. Our stubborn insistence on driving big powerful SUVs and cars has stalled any improvements in fuel efficiency from having an effect on total demand. It's time we looked at ourselves, not the president, Congress or OPEC, and put the blame where it belongs.

John in Pennsylvania: "There is no reason for Dick Cheney to make public his energy plan formulated in private discussions with oil company executives. We now know what the Bush/Cheney energy plan is. Just pull into a gas station."

And Fiona in Lexington has a very good idea. She said: "We pay $6 a gallon at home in Europe, so stop whining. Get rid of your SUVs. Maybe try walking, which in turn might help offset the never-ending low-carb discussions. I would pay $4 a gallon for gasoline if we would stop talking about carbohydrates for just maybe a week or two." Wouldn't that be a refreshing change.

O'BRIEN: Well, not this week. We're doing a series on it, but next week maybe.

CAFFERTY: Well, of course, we would be. Silly me.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

A break here. In a moment, following a number of developing stories. What's happening in Gaza, we're trying to sort through that at the moment. What was thrown at the prime minister today, Tony Blair, in the House of Parliament?

Also, one court-martial in Iraq is already over. We're waiting for punishment there. One soldier is guilty, Specialist Jeremy Sivits. Back to that, top of the hour, after this.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.


Aired May 19, 2004 - 07:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: It's a beautiful shot of the fountain, isn't it? Another beautiful day here in New York City. Welcome back, everybody. Just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
There has already been a ruling in the first court-martial in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Barbara Starr is standing by for us this morning at the Pentagon with more on that, and also a key Senate hearing today, where top commanders will be grilled on just what happened at Abu Ghraib prison.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It was quick today in Baghdad, wasn't it? Waiting for the sentencing now. So, we'll stay tuned for that.

Also, another emotional day of testimony expected today in lower Manhattan. The former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani appears before the 9/11 Commission. In a moment we'll talk to one member of that panel, Richard Ben-Veniste, about what he and his colleagues are looking for today, day two of at that two-day session.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to our top stories first, though, this morning.

In the Middle East, more fighting in Gaza. Let's take a look at these pictures just in to CNN. Palestinian sources say that at least seven are dead in the latest fighting there taking place at the Rafah (ph) refugee camp. It has been the scene of violence for several days now. You can see the massive crowds out there. We're going to have more on this story as we get more information on exactly what has happened. But this information just coming into CNN at this hour.

And then in Iraq, more clashes reported between U.S. forces and the fighters loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Battles have been ongoing in the Iraqi holy city of Karbala. The U.S. military is accusing the militiamen of firing on American forces from a holy Muslim shrine.

In health news, a new report finds that there is no evidence a controversial mercury-based vaccine preservative causes autism. The Institute of Medicine says the preservative mound in measles, mumps and rubella vaccines does not cause the neurological disorder. Five different studies were done. There's been much speculation, though, about the link between autism and the vaccines.

In sports, the Indiana Pacers and the Miami Heat surprising season in game six of the series last night. The Pacers beat the Heat 73-70, stopping Miami's 18-game home winning streak. The Pacers finish the series with a 4-2 win, and they move on to the Eastern Conference finals.

HEMMER: And we showed it about 30 minutes ago, Randy Johnson threw a perfect game last night against the Braves.

O'BRIEN: Only 17 in the history of baseball.

HEMMER: He's 40 years young.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

HEMMER: And Rob Marciano...

O'BRIEN: And I keep saying the poor guy is the oldest, he's the oldest person, you think he's going to be 97 years old.

HEMMER: And then you have Roger Clemens, what, age 42, down in Houston, 7-0, already this year.

O'BRIEN: Forty is the new 20.

(WEATHER BREAK)

HEMMER: The first American soldier accused in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners pleading guilty earlier today to three charges in Baghdad. Meanwhile, a senior Army official says that military officials in Iraq responded to a Red Cross report of abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison by trying to curtail the international agencies' inspections there. Also in about an hour from now in Washington, Senate hearings begin this morning on the abuse scandal.

Let's get you to the Pentagon right now and Barbara Starr for more this half-hour.

Barbara -- good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.

Well, CNN has learned that senior military commanders had heard reports of detainee abuse as far back as beginning in December. Reports that detainees were being stripped naked, being made to wear female underwear. They began to look into it. They did not find direct evidence at that time. And as one senior military commander said, we had collective disbelief that any such thing could be going on.

But this morning, as you say, top generals will be in the hot seat in front of Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice over): Three senior commanders will face tough questions about whether the policies on handling Iraqi prisoners may have gone astray and who was responsible beyond the seven soldiers facing charges of criminal abuse. THOMAS MORRISON, ASSOCIATE DEAN, G.W. UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: If, in fact, the evidence comes out that there were these junior people issued orders to do things that were objectionable, that were violations of the Army regulations, I certainly think that there will be an investigation upward.

STARR: Testifying, General John Abizaid, the Central Command chief. Senators likely to ask whether he now believes there were Geneva Convention violations. Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, coalition commander. Did his directive last year, opening the door to interrogations using sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation, go awry, somehow leading to hooding, stripping naked and sexual humiliation? And Major General Geoffrey Miller, now running prison operations, facing tough questions about his proposal last year to have military police take a more active role to get intelligence from prisoners.

MAJ. GEN. GEORFREY MILLER, U.S. ARMY: No way was there any authorization for military police to be actively involved in interrogation. They are not trained to do that. They don't do that kind of business.

STARR: There is no evidence that these top generals knew of criminal abuse.

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. ARMY: The investigations are not complete. But I can tell you that there was no policy direction that would have led to that kind of an incident.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: So, Bill, expect to see a long investigation, both inside the U.S. military and on Capitol Hill.

HEMMER: Back to this issue of the Red Cross. What's the Pentagon saying about some reports out there, Barbara, that indicate the Red Cross warned of that prisoner abuse back in the fall but nothing was done until January? The response is what?

STARR: Well, that is something that the Pentagon is now sorting out, because what we have also learned is that ICRC report never made it to the top chain of command. General Ricardo Sanchez never saw that ICRC report. It was at a lower level. It was being dealt with there.

Now General Sanchez is making sure he sees all of the reports, and that he's directly aware of the responses and what is being done. The actual response to that ICRC report is still something the top commanders are trying to sort out.

HEMMER: All right, Barbara, thanks for that. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Fifty-one minutes away and counting now to today's hearings on Capitol Hill. Testimony starts before the Senate Armed Services Committee. The generals will be there, Abizaid, Geoffrey Miller and Sanchez. We'll have it live for you live at 8:30 a.m. Eastern Time -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Just over a mile from ground zero, the 9/11 Commission convenes a second day of hearings here in New York City. The panel focused on the emergency response after the twin towers were hit. Yesterday, commissioners took city officials to task for not being better prepared.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB KERREY, 9/11 COMMISSION: Ample reason to believe that New York City as the financial and media capital of the world is going to be the target, and we didn't give it the primary attention. God help Congress and the administration if a third time this city is attacked and more people die than are necessary and more people die in response than are necessary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani is scheduled to testify in about an hour.

Joining us this morning, Richard Ben-Veniste. He's a member of the 9/11 Commission.

Good morning. Nice to see you. Thanks for coming in.

RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: Good morning. How are you?

O'BRIEN: I'm well, thank you.

We just heard what Bob Kerrey had to say, and it was obviously very strong, very pointed, and he got applause from the crowd there. In your investigation, from what you've heard in testimony now over months, how prepared is New York City specifically for another attack?

BEN-VENISTE: Well, they are better prepared, but I don't think we are there yet where we want them to be. We talked about a number of areas of command and control, unified command decisions, improving the 9/11 telephone emergency response. That would be a major plus to be interactive in that process so that people who call in can get useful information.

O'BRIEN: To actually have it work, some people would say.

BEN-VENISTE: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Because there were lots of failures. And, in fact, the testimony showed there was squabbling between the police and fire department, a breakdown completely in communication, or to a large degree. Maybe that's more fair to say. A lack of information that was available to the 9/11 operators that some of the exits to the roof were actually locked. I mean, really a litany of pretty shocking and pretty awful information to hear.

What do you think was the most egregious thing you heard that really needs to be fixed first?

BEN-VENISTE: Well, I think the communication system needs to be fixed so that the fire department and police can talk to one another and information can be shared. But, you know, there were some negatives. There were, obviously, things that went wrong, but there's a lot that went right. A lot of people were saved. Most of the people were evacuated. When we think of the size of that building and the enormity of the attack, in this catastrophe many more lives could have been lost but for the incredible, the incredible bravery of the first responders here in New York, the fire department, the police who lost brothers in unmentionable numbers that day.

So, there was room for improvement, Soledad, and we are trying to make the city safer by making recommendations that can be adopted, some of which have already come forward.

O'BRIEN: How much clout will those recommendations have? Because, of course, here especially in New York City as we both know having lived here for a long time, a lot of that is money. I mean, you want to improve the communications as to making a recommendation is a great idea. But who is going to pay for it? Who is going to pick it? How are you going to make sure it works?

BEN-VENISTE: You are exactly right. And we did focus yesterday somewhat on the disparity between the allocation of funds to improve the protective stance of our urban areas. Obviously, with all due respect to Moline (ph) or other cities in the Midwest, which are not likely targets, New York City, Washington, D.C., Chicago, L.A., they are in the crosshairs, and that's where our efforts ought to be made, and that's where the money ought to be allocated.

O'BRIEN: Rudy Giuliani, as we mentioned, is testifying today. What do you want to ask him? What do you want to hear from him?

BEN-VENISTE: Well, Rudy and I are old friends.

O'BRIEN: Right. So, what do you want to ask him? What do you want to hear from him?

BEN-VENISTE: We'll talk about -- in addition to some of the heroics on the day of 9/11, we'll talk about why the communications were not better, why the radios were not standardized, why the 9/11 system did not work efficiently in a helpful way. And I will focus on cooperation between federal and state authorities, particularly with respect to intelligence-sharing. There's got to be a better way for the federal government, particularly the FBI, to utilize local law enforcement agencies, particularly New York PD, sharing information, force multiplying by using the incredible resources here.

O'BRIEN: 9/11 Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste, nice to have you. Thanks for coming in to talk to us today.

BEN-VENISTE: Thank you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Bill. HEMMER: Soledad, a couple of things, we're learning more about what was thrown at the British prime minister, Tony Blair. More on that in a moment.

Also, watching a developing story in Gaza today. At least seven are dead after an Israeli helicopter fired into a crowd. That's the report we're getting in Gaza. We'll sort through the details in a moment here on that -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, also this morning, abusive interrogation of prisoners by American service personnel. No surprise to some observers. What lessons can be learned from Abu Ghraib. That's head on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Welcome back, everybody.

For most of us, the photos that brought the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal to life were shocking indeed. But the disturbing reality is that for some people, they clearly were not. That's what Mark Bowden writes about anyway in an essay titled "The Lessons of Abu Ghraib." It appears in the upcoming July/August issue of "The Atlantic Monthly" magazine. Good to have Mark back on our program.

Good morning to you.

MARK BOWDEN, "THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY": Thank you, Bill.

HEMMER: Take that lead-in. What do you mean by that?

BOWDEN: Well, I mean that, you know, Donald Rumsfeld knew about the existence of these photographs and had reports for months before they were made public, and I think he knew they were going to be made public. And so, in fact, on the day that "60 Minutes" aired for the first time those photographs, he briefed congressional Republicans and never even mentioned it. So, I mean, what that suggests to me, he's not a stupid man. He knew they were going to become public anyway. He didn't think they were that big of a deal.

HEMMER: In addition to this, though, members of Congress had letters written to them by the families of the accused right now, and there was no action taken on behalf of Congress either. Is it likely that a lot of people did not think these photos would be, (a), as bad as they turned out to be, and, (b), as incendiary for the American public and the Iraqi people?

BOWDEN: I think the latter. I think that they weren't adept or they were so tone deaf they failed to anticipate the impact that these pictures would have both in the Western world and in the Arab world.

HEMMER: You say that coercive interrogation should be completely banned. Define that first.

BOWDEN: Well, I think that, you know, you should assume, first of all, that in any kind of prison environment and particularly in a war zone, you are going to have abuses in prisons. And so, the rules ought to be very strict. Coercive interrogation means using any methods that make the life of the person under interrogation uncomfortable, off balance, frightened, humiliated, whatever. All are very potentially successful tactics for interrogation, but they ought to be employed only in the rarest of cases.

HEMMER: Help me understand then. When you are trying to save lives and you're trying to prosecute a war, what's acceptable?

BOWDEN: I think what's acceptable is that you use coercive methods of interrogation, which are methods that are effective, shown to be more effective.

HEMMER: Such as what?

BOWDEN: Such as sleep deprivation.

HEMMER: Would you stop there?

BOWDEN: It would depend on the case. I think in the case of someone like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (ph), one of the top leaders of al Qaeda, I think that that -- you can make a fairly convincing case for going to extreme lengths to get information from him in what they call ticking bomb scenarios, but I think these are very rare cases. And my feeling is that it ought to be banned when interrogators take it upon themselves to use these methods, they ought to be prepared to defend themselves and to defend their decision to have used them. But it ought to be against the rules.

HEMMER: What you're suggesting then, I believe, is that it depends on the individual case. It's a subjective decision.

BOWDEN: I think that any time an interrogator uses these methods on a prisoner to get information he ought to know or she ought to know that they are breaking the rules and they could potentially be held liable for doing so. I think that's the only way to limit the use of those tactics to situations where it's warranted.

HEMMER: Have you thought for a moment what happens after Sivits? The plea has been entered. We're waiting for a decision on the punishment from the judge. There are others who are lined up, and they will proceed in the next coming weeks or months. The end result of this is what?

BOWDEN: Well, I hope that the end result is that the military will ban the use of these practices across the board. I think there's no question that the Bush administration has authorized the use of coercive methods on a fairly large scale. And I think when you do that, you make these kinds of abuses inevitable. So, I hope that the upshot is that they decide to ban it.

HEMMER: We're about 39 minutes away from another hearing today in D.C., and we will hear more on this. Mark Bowden, thanks for coming in and sharing with us today.

BOWDEN: Thank you, Bill. HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Still to come on AMERICAN MORNING, we are following this developing story out of Gaza. At least seven people dead when an Israeli helicopter fires at a crowd. We're going to sort through the details on that. Our Matthew Chance is standing by for us for a live report just ahead.

And also, things get a little too rowdy at the British House of Commons this morning. We're going to explain what happened. You can see some powder or something thrown at the prime minister. That's ahead. AMERICAN MORNING is back right after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Jack Cafferty has got the question of the day.

Hello.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: How are you doing?

Politicians in Washington are busy blaming each other for high gas prices, but there are some real reasons that prices may be above two bucks a gallon -- increased demand from China, turmoil in the Middle East, the risk of supply interruptions, peak driving season here in the U.S.

Democrats want to trap -- trap -- tap the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and get some oil out of there. They want OPEC to increase production. The White House says it's Congress' fault they haven't passed the energy bill.

There's an e-mail going around, calling for a nationwide boycott of gasoline today. Most people say it won't make much of a difference, because you'll either buy your gas yesterday or tomorrow.

So the question is: Who is to blame for record-high gas prices?

We begin with Ben, who says: "It's you and me, the American consumers who are to blame for high gas prices. Our stubborn insistence on driving big powerful SUVs and cars has stalled any improvements in fuel efficiency from having an effect on total demand. It's time we looked at ourselves, not the president, Congress or OPEC, and put the blame where it belongs.

John in Pennsylvania: "There is no reason for Dick Cheney to make public his energy plan formulated in private discussions with oil company executives. We now know what the Bush/Cheney energy plan is. Just pull into a gas station."

And Fiona in Lexington has a very good idea. She said: "We pay $6 a gallon at home in Europe, so stop whining. Get rid of your SUVs. Maybe try walking, which in turn might help offset the never-ending low-carb discussions. I would pay $4 a gallon for gasoline if we would stop talking about carbohydrates for just maybe a week or two." Wouldn't that be a refreshing change.

O'BRIEN: Well, not this week. We're doing a series on it, but next week maybe.

CAFFERTY: Well, of course, we would be. Silly me.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

A break here. In a moment, following a number of developing stories. What's happening in Gaza, we're trying to sort through that at the moment. What was thrown at the prime minister today, Tony Blair, in the House of Parliament?

Also, one court-martial in Iraq is already over. We're waiting for punishment there. One soldier is guilty, Specialist Jeremy Sivits. Back to that, top of the hour, after this.

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