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Generals Testify Before Senate Armed Services Committee; Israeli Helicopter May Have Fired Into Crowd; Interview With Senator Joseph Lieberman, Senator Saxby Chambliss

Aired May 19, 2004 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The U.S. military brass in Baghdad called over to Capitol Hill today. It's been a grim session before the Senate Armed Services Committee. And the U.S. military Central Commander, General John Abizaid, rather ruthfully made that point. While he's here in Washington, the enemy is, of course, back in Iraq, pulling out, he says, all the stops to see that America fails.
Let's start our coverage. CNN's Barbara Starr, she's standing by live at the Pentagon. She's been monitoring.

This has been very dramatic testimony this morning, these three generals, Barbara, pitted before members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Wolf. That hearing now going over three hours. The three top commanders, General Abizaid, General Ricardo Sanchez, the head of U.S. forces in Iraq, and General Geoffrey Miller, now the head of prison operations in Iraq, all of them facing very intense questioning.

General Abizaid getting right to the point, saying he took responsibility for everything that happens under his command. But he also talked a good deal about some of the confusion, some of the lack of procedures, some of the things that concern him the most that he has found, although he believes there's no systemic problem of abuse.

Now, he was asked a number of questions about reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross, which had reports of prisoner abuse late last year. Who saw those ICRC reports, what has he done about them, and how these reports are handles by the top chief command. Here's a bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CENTRAL COMMAND: We don't all see them. Sometimes it works at a lower level. Sometimes commanders at the lowest level get the report and they work on it confidentially. And I think what we've got to do is have a system when there is something that comes to the attention of any level of command, that it not be worked through at the lower level, but that it surface all the way through the chain of command. So we've got a problem there that's got to be fixed.

(END VIDEO CLIP) STARR: And what General Abizaid is really getting to, Wolf, is some of the frustration that he expressed at the hearing about what he considers some outdated procedures and policies. He said the U.S. Army hasn't had a detention operation like this in some 50 years, perhaps since the end of World War II. And for the war on terrorism, they need to find a better way to address all of these issues.

They said that, yes, military intelligence had taken over some aspects of Abu Ghraib prison, but none of it was meant for military police to engage in this criminally abusive behavior. They are still looking at a number of people. The criminal investigation goes on, the command investigation goes on. So all of this far from over.

And what about the war in Iraq? General Abizaid took an opportunity to remind senators, transition to Iraqi sovereignty really now just days away. He said it's essential that some decisions be made about which Iraqis, who exactly is going to take over after that June 30 transition date.

And very interestingly, just a few moments ago, he was asked about troop levels in Iraq. Given the level of the insurgency, whether he might have underestimated the need for troop strength several months ago. And his answer was, maybe. He said maybe he did. But now they are committed to about 138,000 troops in Iraq, keeping them there for the foreseeable future, while they try to get a handle on the security situation -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara, I was struck, I was impressed, actually, by an exchange, a very dramatic exchange between Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and the generals. And Lindsey Graham has his own experience as a JAG officer, but he was make the point that in his lifetime, he had never seen such a mess in the military organization as existed at the Abu Ghraib prison, the chain of command, the simple chaos, if you will, that existed at a military institution -- an installation like this. And I didn't hear any of the generals, dispute that.

STARR: That is absolutely right, Wolf. All three of those generals, along with another very important man, Colonel Mark Warren, who is the JAG, the top legal officer for the U.S. Central Command, he is also sitting at that witness table. He was asked about it, he didn't disagree.

There is a sense amongst the top leadership that Abu Ghraib was a prison with a lot of problems, a lot of confusion, and that it was some of that that led to the lack of discipline and led to the behavior that was seen, the lack of discipline by the commanders directly in charge of Abu Ghraib. But what these officials are also seeing is, while they are addressing that problem, they feel there are deeper command issues that they must look at. They must figure out, they say, how to make sure this does not happen again.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr, at the Pentagon, thanks very much.

While all of this is happening here in Washington on Capitol Hill, in Baghdad, a very different story, but related. Specialist Jeremy Sivits was sentenced today to the maximum possible penalty in the first court-martial connected to the prison abuse scandal.

CNN's Harris Whitbeck has that part of the story in the Iraqi capital.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Specialist Jeremy Sivits has been sentenced to one year confinement. He has been given a bad conduct discharge from the U.S. armed forces, and he has been demoted in rank from specialist to private. This, after a judge at a special court-martial that took place in the Baghdad convention center found him guilty of three charges of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad.

Sivits' testimony was at times emotional. He said he was sorry for what happened, and he said that he had learned that he should have stood up for "what was right." Reaction in Baghdad was swift. The country's acting human rights minister said the trial was a good thing because it was so open.

Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Let's move to the ongoing violence now in Gaza. Israeli troops say they're on the hunt for terrorists. Palestinians say innocent people are the ones getting caught in the crossfire. CNN's Matthew Chance is in Gaza. He's monitoring some extraordinary developments there today.

Matthew, the pictures that we've been seeing are very, very dramatic. Explain to our viewers what exactly has happened in Gaza on this day.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are very shocking images, you are absolutely right. Images of what appears to have been, from what we can see, a protest, a very angry protest, if a peaceful one, through the streets of Rafah, towards the refugee camp where there has been this ongoing military operation by the Israeli army for the past three days.

A helicopter gunship appears in the sky, first launching flares. And then, according to eyewitnesses at the scene, firing a rocket into the crowd, causing widespread casualties. Israeli officials also confirmed that tanks opened fire on what they believed was in an abandon abandoned building close by as well.

Whatever the facts -- and that's being investigated -- the consequences very plain to see. The latest casualties figures that we have, at least 18 people killed as a result of this attack by Israeli forces, another 50 or so injured. Some of them seriously.

Some of the dead, as well, according to hospital officials that we've spoken to, are children. A good number of them. The exact figure, though, hasn't quite been made clear to us yet. Israel, for its part, has launched -- rather issued an expression of sorrow, in its words, for the loss of innocent life. It says, though, that this is a war zone, that innocent lives are frequently lost.

It also says it's investigating what exactly happened. It says it believes the helicopter fired its rockets into an opened area and couldn't have caused these casualties. But it is looking into the possibility that the casualties were caused by a tank, which it says fired four of its shells of what it believed it was in an abandoned building -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Either the shell from the tank, I take it, Matthew, that killed these people, or from the helicopter gunship, are there no other options out there? Is that right?

CHANCE: Well, no. In fact, no realistic ones, I suppose. Although it has been speculated by Israeli military sources that have spoken to me that this could have been some kind of Palestinian explosive device which was detonated by the Israeli weaponry that was fired. But that sounds pretty far-fetched from this perspective. Certainly, if you speak to the Palestinians, the eyewitnesses who were there on the ground, they say quite clearly that these casualties were caused by an Israeli helicopter gunship or by the tanks firing into the crowd.

BLITZER: This is one of those shocking moments, Matthew...

(CROSSTALK)

CHANCE: ... of course. The...

BLITZER: I was saying this is one of those shocking moments...

CHANCE: Sorry. Go ahead, Wolf.

BLITZER: ... in this kind of dispute. This is one of those shocking moments that either could lead to an escalation or could get everybody to sort of step back and reassess what's going on, and have some sort of pause in the fighting. Is there any immediate indication what might happen in the hours ahead?

CHANCE: Not really, no. No immediate indication of whether this is going to bolster the result of the international community or not. Israel, again, though, is saying that it's not yet time to apportion blame for what has happened here.

It's accepting a degree of responsibility, but as Ranaan Gissin, the adviser to the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, said, they're still investigating exactly what happened. Let's have a quick listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANAAN GISSIN, ADVISER TO ARIEL SHARON: Let me express my deep regrets on behalf of the Israeli government to the loss of innocent life and noncombatants who were killed in this incident, regardless of how they got killed. We regret very much the loss of life.

All of our operations are designed in order to prevent as much as possible the loss of life. What we know as of now is that there was an explosion amongst the crowd that caused the death of these people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Well, this commitment, though, is unlikely to convince, Wolf, the many Palestinians believe that, at least here in the Gaza Strip, the Israeli strip has abandoned its restraint -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Matthew Chance on the scene for us, this very important story. Matthew, thank you very much.

And to our viewers, we're standing by, the president of the United States, George W. Bush, is meeting at the hour with his cabinet over in the White House there in the cabinet room. We expect the president to answer some reporters' questions at the end of that session.

We're standing by for videotape from the White House. We assume he'll be asked about what's happening in Gaza. We'll bring that videotape to our viewers as soon as it comes in here at CNN.

Rudy Giuliani facing the 9/11 Commission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FMR. MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: The losses were too much for us to bear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The former New York City mayor makes it clear the blame game should end once and for all. We'll take you live to New York.

And still on come as well, the prisoner abuse scandal taking center stage on Capitol Hill. Two key members of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Joe Lieberman, Saxby Chambliss, they'll join me live fresh from the hearing this morning with the three U.S. generals.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're going to hear momentarily from the president. He's meeting with his cabinet.

But about a mile from ground zero in New York City, the search for answers goes on. What went wrong, what went right, and how can America better prepare itself for another possible terror attack?

CNN's Jeanne Meserve is covering the 9/11 Commission hearing. She's joining us now live -- Jeanne.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I heard this morning from the current mayor of New York City, Michael Bloomberg, who raked the federal government over the coals for not giving New York City and New York State more counterterrism funding. He said out of the 50 States, New York ranked 49th in per capita homeland security spending.

He said per capita spending here is about $5.47, compared with more than $101 for America Samoa. He called that "pork barrel politics at its worst that aides and abets those who hate us and are plotting against us." But it was not just testimony that stirred up the 9/11 Commission this morning. While they were hearing testimony from the previous mayor, Rudy Giuliani, hecklers interrupted the proceedings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to ask a couple real questions. Don't (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Let's ask some real questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: Hecklers said they were distressed at what they perceived as kit glove treatment of Giuliani, treatment which contrasted with tough and rough questioning yesterday of present and former police fire and emergency officials. Giuliani, for his part, said anger and blame were understandable but misdirected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: When human beings are put under this condition, that's what happens. So our anger should clearly be directed, and the blame should clearly be directed at one source and one source alone: the terrorists who killed our loved ones.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: Giuliani said New York had expected attacks but they expected them on the subways and bridges and tunnels. Not an aerial attack of the sort this commission is trying to analyze and draw lessons from.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: All right. Jeanne Meserve in New York, covering this important hearing for us, the 9/11 Commission hearings.

We're about to go to the White House now. The president has been meeting with members of his cabinet in the White House to discuss a wide range of issues, including what is happening in Gaza. Let's go to this videotape, which we're just getting it into CNN right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you for coming.

I just met with my Cabinet to discuss a variety of issues. We spent a lot of time talking about the situation in Iraq. I detailed our plan and our strategy to transfer full sovereignty to the Iraqi people on June 30th. I reminded them that a lot of progress has been made already toward that transfer. Eleven ministries are now run by Iraqi citizens, I might add capably run by Iraqi citizens.

I discussed with the Cabinet the plans of Mr. Brahimi, the U.N. representative who is consulting with Iraqi leadership and Iraqi citizenry, as well as our own government officials there about the interim government and who will occupy the positions of responsibility in that government.

I anticipate in the next couple of weeks, decisions will be made toward who will be the president and the vice presidents, as well as the prime minister and other ministers.

Thirdly, we talked about a U.N. Security Council resolution, which is -- the secretary is moving forward. He's in consultations with Security Council members -- a Security Council resolution which will embrace the new interim government and the need to provide security so that free elections will happen as promised to the Iraqi people.

We've got hard work to do. I told my Cabinet, we've got hard work to do. After all, we saw the vivid savagery of the enemy. The decapitation of a U.S. citizen reminds us all about the barbaric nature of those who are trying to stop progress toward freedom.

We understand the nature of that enemy. We also understand the nature of our brave troops. They're motivated, they're skilled, they're well trained. They will accomplish the mission.

BUSH: Then I talked about the economy. We're pleased with the economic progress here in America. After all, the growth rates are high. New jobs are being created; 1.1 million new jobs since last August have been created by the entrepreneurs and small-business owners and our risk-takers of America, and that's positive.

I am concerned about the price of gasoline at the pump. I fully understand how that affects American consumers. How it crimps the budgets of moms and dads who are trying to provide for their families. How it affects the truck driver. How it affects the small-business owner.

I anticipated this three years ago. I asked my team to put together a strategy to make us less dependent upon foreign sources of energy. I submitted that plan to the United States Congress. And now we want people to have it both ways, just like they tried to have it both ways over the last couple of years. On the one hand, they decry the price at the pump, and on the other hand, they won't do anything about it. They won't take action. Congress needs to pass the energy plan.

We had a very interesting discussion about capacity. For example, had ANWR been passed, had it not been vetoed in the past, we anticipate an additional million barrels of oil would have been coming out of that part of the world, which would, obviously, have a positive impact for today's consumers. And so it's time for some action here to get us less dependent. They need to pass that which I have submitted to Congress so this country become less dependent on foreign sources of energy.

All in all, we're upbeat about the spread of freedom and peace, and the ability for our fellow citizens to find work.

Let me answer two questions, starting with Laidlaw (ph).

QUESTION: Thanks, Mr. President. You called for maximum restraint from both sides in the Mideast.

QUESTION: Today, Israel's military acknowledged it fired four tank shells, machine guns, missiles into a crowd of demonstrators. One, was it justified? Two, what are you telling them and what are you hearing?

BUSH: I continue to urge restraint. It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace.

And we'll get clarification from the government. I haven't had a chance to speak to the government or be briefed, but I will continue to speak out about the need for all parties to respect innocent life in the Middle East.

QUESTION: Sir, Senator Kerry has suggested (inaudible) shipments to the emergency oil reserves. Your energy bill is a long-term strategy. What are some short-term steps that can be taken?

BUSH: If people had acted on my energy bill when I submitted it three years ago, we would be in a much better situation today.

Secondly, we will not play politics with the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. That petroleum reserve is in place in case of major disruptions of energy supplies to the United States.

The idea of emptying the Strategic Petroleum Reserve would put America in a dangerous position in the war on terror. We're at war. We face a tough and determined enemy on all fronts, and we must not put ourselves in a worse position in this war, and playing politics with the Strategic Petroleum Reserve would do just that.

Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: The president in the cabinet room meeting with his cabinet, discussing with reporters at the end of that meeting, a wide range of issues, including his concern about what's happening in Gaza, the price of gasoline, overall situation in Iraq. We're going to talk a quick break. Robin Wright of The Washington Post is standing by to join us when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We just heard from the president of the United States discuss a wide range of issues, including what's happening in Iraq, what's happening in Gaza, among other issues as well.

Let's bring in The Washington Post's Robin Wright. She's joining us live from The Washington Post.

Robin, let's first of all talk about Iraq. You heard, I thought, something very interesting from the president. He said he's trying to get this new U.N. Security Council resolution that will embrace whatever interim government they come up with after June 30. A work in progress, if you will.

ROBIN WRIGHT, THE WASHINGTON POST: It is very much a work in progress. And, in fact, the United States had very ambitious goals for this U.N. resolution that have been paired down a little bit.

We're in a time crunch, frankly. The administration had hoped by the middle of May to have a new Iraqi interim government at least named, and then to be able to get a U.N. resolution so that by June 1, you could begin to see this important transition begin at a lot of different levels with the support of the international community. A government in place beginning to assume control, the wind down of the U.S. occupation, and the passing of this U.N. resolution to embrace and offer a cover or international legitimacy to this transition and for the new government.

BLITZER: Can we assume, Robin -- and I guess it's an assumption -- that if Lakhdar Brahimi, the special U.N. envoy who works for the U.N. secretary-general, Kofi Annan, if he supports whatever plan they come up with, and he's the point man to do it, then all 15 members of the U.N. Security Council will go along with it?

WRIGHT: That's a very good question, Wolf. I think the Security Council will probably go along with the people that Brahimi names for the new government, these critical top executive positions, and the more than two dozen ministries. The big question really will be on the element in the resolution that deals with the presence of foreign forces.

This is going to be very controversial, and we could see the same kind of drama play out on the floor of the United Nations over whether to give them -- give the foreign forces now in Iraq a U.N. umbrella, make them a multinational force that is recognized. Or was it there will be some limitations imposed on them, by particularly France, Russia, and Germany, the three countries who have in the past been opposed to some of things the United States has requested?

BLITZER: Robin, you wrote in last Sunday's Washington Post in the "Outlook" session what I thought was a very riveting article, bringing in the three decades that you've spent covering the Middle East and sort of a very, very pessimistic conclusion that you have right now that you feel for what's going on. Give our viewers who may have not the opportunity to read that article -- they should go back to washingtonpost.com to read it -- but tell our viewers where your head is at right now. WRIGHT: Well, I guess the issue for me is not whether Donald Rumsfeld or the administration survive the picture scandal at Abu Ghraib prison. The real issue is how this last phase of the modern era plays out. And that really involves the end of a 500-year period in which we've watched the ideas of empowerment sweep the world, with the exception of last bloc, of countries in the Islamic world, 50-plus nations accounting for 1.2 billion people on Earth.

And the last great challenge is to see that, the kind of democracy that swept the world over the past two decades, particularly penetrate that region. And the challenge of Iraq really is whether the United States, the principles, the protections that we have advertised that are the core of our soul and the nation's existence, whether they have credibility in the aftermath of both our occupation in Iraq and how it's played out, as well as the scandal at Abu Ghraib, which unfortunately has become a metaphor for the occupation.

And I fear that the Cold War we've witnessed over the past 50 years could be followed by a very warm one. Not just a war on terrorism, but what amounts to a clash of cultures. An idea that people have been talking about for several years, but which until very recently which I'd rejected.

BLITZER: And so now you've come around to embrace that very, very gloomy concept, is that what you are saying?

WRIGHT: Well, I think it's going to take us far longer to get through this last phase of the modern era than we originally calculated. There has been great energy in the Muslim world to try to propel change, to figure out how they can be part of the changes that have swept the other parts of the world. And I think it's now going to take us a little bit longer than -- and it could be a little bloodier than anyone had anticipated.

BLITZER: That's pretty gloomy. And speaking of gloomy, what's happening in Gaza right now, I don't know if you had a chance to see the latest videotape that we've shown our viewers here on CNN, but it's pretty awful what's going on.

The president of the United States saying he's urging restraint on all parties, he's urging all parties to respect innocent life. This is a thorny issue for the United States, for the Bush administration to deal with right now.

WRIGHT: It sure is. And the two things come at the same time, the disintegration of peace efforts between the Palestinians and the Israelis, as well as Iraq. And they kind of mirror each other.

This is a stark contrast for the administration from just a year ago, when there was great hope that the end of Saddam Hussein's rule and this bold international peace plan -- but to create a two-state solution by the end of 2005, would, you know, begin to change that region. And today, we see instead only these terrible pictures of violence in both regions.

BLITZER: Yesterday, the vice prime minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, was on this show, exactly 24 hours ago, and he thought that, despite what the Likud Party voted, despite all the opposition elsewhere, he thought the Israeli government would complete the withdrawal, the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza within one year. Is that realistic?

WRIGHT: You know, it's very hard for me to tell from this distance whether -- but I think that a year for -- to wait a year is to invite in some ways more trouble. There are tremendous expectations of -- among the Palestinians and the broader Arab world that there as going to be much more by the end of 2005 than simply the handover of Gaza and the end of four Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

The peace plan outlined by the United States, United Nations, Russia, and the European Union calls for a full two-state solution, including the West Bank, by the end of next year. So nearly turning over Gaza in a year is not likely to foster the kind of peace that everyone had hoped for a year ago.

BLITZER: One final question, Robin, and then I will let you go. A lot of countries are condemning the Israelis. International human rights organizations are condemning them for what is going on in Rafah, a refugee camp, specifically.

What we heard from the president was something short of any condemnation. He's troubled, he's concerned, he's urging restraint, but I don't hear the kind of criticism of the Israeli government coming from Washington that I'm hearing in Europe or elsewhere. Is that your analysis as well?

WRIGHT: I think that's true, but the United States has always been Israel's closest friend, and also the last one usually to criticize it.

BLITZER: Robin Wright of The Washington Post. If you haven't read her article last Sunday in The Washington Post "Outlook" section, this is a good time to go to washingtonpost.com and read it. It's very important reading.

Robin, thanks very much.

WRIGHT: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's go to the White House now. Our White House correspondent, Suzanne Malveaux, is standing by to update us on some dramatic comments by the president, Suzanne.

Let's talk, first of all, switching gears, on the whole issue of gas prices. This is a very, very important politically charged issue this year, now that are there record $2 per gallon gas prices around the United States. And the president is saying, you know what, if you had listened to me three years ago, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, there are a couple of things that are happening here. First of all, the strategy is that the White House certainly doesn't want to run into the same kind of problem that President Bush's father did. That is, after the success of the Gulf War, largely seen out of touch with the economic concerns of the common person here.

Iraq is not necessarily going as well as the administration had hoped, but certainly the president needs to say the kinds of things that he did today, that he recognizes that these high gas prices have an impact on regular people, families, the moms and pops, the truck drivers, that he's not out of touch with people's economic concerns. Secondly, of course, is the perception that the administration isn't doing enough to confront this problem, particularly when it comes to a short-term strategy.

The president, as well as Republican allies, the campaign, all saying, look, we're putting this on the Democrats. They should have passed this comprehensive energy legislation when he first introduced it three years ago. But then he has to go beyond that and talk about, yes, we are talking with our OPEC friends, we are also making sure that they're not price gouging, those type of things.

So that is the challenge of this administration that the president has to deal with now. Make sure that he demonstrates, he understands what people are concerned about, and, yes, they're doing something about it.

BLITZER: And the president was very firm, very firm in saying the strategic petroleum reserve is not going to be opened up, is not going to be used. Some Democrats saying there's a short-term solution: open it up, increase the supply of oil, and as a result the price per gallon presumably would go down.

The president saying we will not play politics with the strategic petroleum reserve. This is a sensitive issue as well. And the Democrats also are saying, you know what, during the campaign in 2000, the president said the price of gasoline was then too high. If he were president, he would speak to the OPEC members, he would squeeze them, he would jaw-bone, he would use his bully pulpit to get the price down to increase the supply.

What are the White House officials saying about his comments of four years ago?

MALVEAUX: Well, White House aides say that, look, there is already consultations that have gone on. They already have cooperation of key allies. You're talking about Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates. That these are countries that have already pledged a certain sense of cooperation, or sensitivity, at least, to the problem of the gas price hike.

They say that, yes, that's already going on. But they also say, look, this is turning into something that is political. And they believe that it's the Democrats' fault, that they're using procedural methods inside of Congress to keep this legislation from going forward.

But they also recognized, too, that that really is a long-term goal, a long-term strategy. There's nothing that's really going to happen before November regarding that energy legislation. So they have to continue to push for this argument, saying that at the very least, we are doing something here to try to fix this.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Suzanne, thanks very much.

Three generals in the hot seat on Capitol Hill. What impact will their testimony have on the prisoner abuse scandal? Senate Armed Services Committee members Joe Lieberman, Saxby Chambliss, they're standing by to join me live.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: How high up the military chain of command will the prisoner abuse investigation lead? Top military commanders were called before the Senate Armed Services Committee this morning to reveal what they knew about the abuse and what they did not know.

Joining us now, two senators on the committee, Joe Lieberman, Democrat from Connecticut, Saxby Chambliss, Republican from Georgia.

Senators, thanks very much for joining us.

It was fascinating testimony. I'll start with you, Senator Lieberman. What did you learn from these three generals today that caught your attention?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: A lot. Some of it good, some of it not so good. I mean, General Abizaid, the chief of the Central Command, said that while he was convinced that there was no pattern of prison abuse throughout his command, in this Abu Ghraib prison, there was a systemic problem that may well have caused the abuse that we've seen in the pictures.

How did it happen? Still not clear. A lot of the responsibility is still placed by the generals that we heard from today on those underneath them.

Remember, they were under oath. General Miller, who's the man that was sent from Guantanamo over there at direction of the Pentagon, and there was a cloud hanging over his head. Maybe he was directed to go over and tell the people in the Abu Ghraib prison, get tough.

He said no such things. As a matter of fact, he never talked directly to anybody at the Pentagon. He went over to make sure it was being done right.

So we're on a path, and we've got a ways to go. Obviously, we've got to clean this up.

I described this problem today as a self-inflicted wound in the middle of a war. And like any other wound, you've got to clean it, close it, heal it, and then get back to the war. And that's what we've got to as quickly as we can with the prisoner abuse scandal.

BLITZER: Senator Chambliss, the generals basically did not dispute Senator Lindsey Graham, your Republican colleague from South Carolina, who said it was a mess, the disorganization at that Abu Ghraib prison late last year that, in effect, allowed these abuses to go forward.

SEN. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: The fact of the matter, Wolf, is there was a total lack of discipline among this particular unit that was guarding these prisoners. There was a total lack of leadership. And we've heard that over and over again. That was confirmed again today.

One thing that I was significantly impressed by, though, when General Abizaid said, look, this thing didn't work. It's broken, and we're about the business of fixing it. Now, good leaders realize that mistakes can be made, and they move ahead to try to fix those mistakes and fix problems.

So Joe's right. We learned an awful lot today. Some of it good, some of it rehashing some of the bad things.

But the fact of the matter is, these guys have got a war to run. At the same time, they're trying to fix these mechanical and practical problems in this prison system. And I'm confident that these gentlemen are about the business of doing that. They're very dead serious about their work.

BLITZER: Senator Lieberman, I'm getting a lot of reaction from our viewers, our e-mail out there. Jeremy Sivits, the specialist, he pleaded guilty today in a court-martial in Baghdad. He's cooperating. He will testify against some of his fellow soldiers.

He got the maximum sentence. Despite that in the prison, in the brig, he's going to be dishonorably discharged. A lot of people are suggesting that he's being overly punished in order to send a message to the Arab world, if you will. And also, they would like to see higher-ups get punished in the process as well if he's going it take this kind of punishment.

LIEBERMAN: I'd say two things. This is our system of justice. In this case, military justice at work.

And what we heard from the generals today, are these investigations, are these trials hurting our cause now? Their attitude was, what hurt our cause was the prison abuse. The investigation and the trials are not, because it's showing the world that we observe the rule of law and we hold our own to it.

So, you know, you could always talk a given judgment, whether in a military tribunal or in an American court, and say, that seemed a little tougher than what we thought was justified. But that's our system of justice. And what happened here was quite serious. The other thing to say is, we're not going to rest, certainly not on the Senate Armed Services Committee, until the search for truth goes as far up the chain of command as it has to go and everybody is either cleared or questions are raised about guilt higher up.

BLITZER: We are going to take a quick break, but I want you to weigh in, Senator Chambliss, as well. Are you comfortable with the punishment that Specialist Sivits is going to get?

CHAMBLISS: Well, it's the maximum he could get, and I think that's the way these perpetrators have got to be treated.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by, senators. We're going to continue our discussion. Senators Lieberman and Chambliss right after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're continuing our conversation with two senators, Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, Saxby Chambliss of Georgia.

Senator Lieberman, the president said today he will not play politics with the strategic petroleum reserve. He's not going to open it up in order to try to reduce the price per gallon. He says if you, meaning members of Congress, had passed his energy plan three years ago, the American people wouldn't be in the mess they're in with $2 per gallon price of gasoline.

What do you say?

LIEBERMAN: Respectfully, I say the president's energy plan would have helped it a little bit. It wouldn't have done it. And, most of all, it wouldn't have done it because it didn't give enough relief to what's the problem.

Our country is too dependent on foreign sources of energy. And that means we've got invest in a kind of Manhattan Project at alternative cleaner energy sources that we control.

Also, one omission from the president's energy program was fuel efficiency. We've got to put back an old American value of thrift here. The technologies there, we've got to figure out how to move our cars where we want to go and using less gasoline.

And, you know, the problem now with the energy gas price spikes is bad for our economy, bad for individuals. It's caused because OPEC turned down the spigot and, at the same time, the world of economy is recovering.

And I do agree that the president and all of us ought to be jaw- boning our friends in the OPEC countries to raise supply. And then we've got to figure out how to diversify our energy, or else we're going to be subject to this over and over again.

BLITZER: Senator Chambliss, a lot of Democrats are criticizing the president. He said in 2000, when he was running for the White House, he said that if there were high gasoline prices, he would go talk to the leaders of OPEC and squeeze them to reduce the price, in effect, increase their production, so that the price per barrel would go down. They're saying he has not done that. CHAMBLISS: Well, I beg to differ with them. I think he has done that. And has he done it to the extent that he's been successful? Obviously not.

But again, demand and supply always dictate the price of gasoline. We know, as Joe says, they've turned off the supply. Demand has increased significantly, not just in the United States, but in countries like China, where there is an increase in the manufacturing sector over there. There is a huge increase for the demand for petroleum products.

And we are dependent to the tune of about 62 percent in the United States on foreign imports. That is way too much. Release of the strategic petroleum reserves today would not decrease the price of gasoline for $2 and soon to be $3 to $1.50. And I think the president's probably right not to encroach on that right now.

We do need a long-term energy policy. But, you know, we're going to have to suffer through unfortunately a period of time here until we can convince them to open that spigot up a little wider.

BLITZER: Saxby Chambliss and Joe Lieberman, two U.S. senators from the Armed Services Committee, thanks very much for joining us on this day.

LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Wolf.

CHAMBLIS: Always good to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you very much.

We've been reporting throughout day on the latest developments in Gaza. A lot of people have been killed at a demonstration. We spoke earlier. We got reaction from the Israeli adviser to Prime Minister Sharon, Ranaan Gissin.

Let's bring in Nabil Abu Rudeineh. He's Yasser Arafat's senior adviser. He's joining us on the phone.

Nabil Abu Rudeineh, thanks very much for joining us. What can you tell us about this latest incident that we've seen? Because the pictures that we've been showing our viewers here on CNN around the world have been very dramatic, indeed.

NABIL ABU RUDEINEH, ARAFAT SENIOR ADVISER: As a matter of fact, it's not just an incident. It's a real massacre. It's a carnage.

It was a peaceful demonstration. And as you have mentioned, 24 people had been killed and 82 injured. And this is part of the Israeli policy of their military escalation. The Israelis are endangering not just the peace process, but they are endangering the situation in the whole region.

We approached the Americans and the Security Council, and we asked the Security Council to interfere and to condemn this escalation. And we urge here the American administration to interfere immediately, because this is going to reflect negatively on everybody and on the interest of the Palestinians and the Israelis and the Americans themselves.

The Israelis are endangering the situation in a very dramatic way. A lot of people have been killed since the beginning of this month. So far, 94 people have been killed in Gaza this month.

And this massacre, this early morning here in Gaza, all of the victims are children and young people. And they were demonstrating peacefully in support of their relatives who are besieged in the camps, the refugee camps.

Can you believe it? People had been kicked out from their land 56 years ago. They are refugees, and they followed them after 56 years. And they are forcing them to become refugees again in order to escalate the situation.

BLITZER: Let me -- let me bring in, Nabil -- I just want to interrupt for a second. The president of the United States, George W. Bush, only a few moments ago, he said he continues to urge restraint on all parties. It is essentially said for people to respect innocent life. He says he will continue to speak out, and he urges everyone to show maximum restraint.

Is that good enough from Washington?

RUDEINEH: This is a positive step forward, but it's not enough. The Americans should stop the Israelis from continuing their escalation, because this situation is very dangerous and very critical. And people are getting killed every time.

We hope that Americans would take enough action to send observers, to force the Israelis to accept international observers. And we don't mind if these observers are American observers in order to see what's going on in the ground and to put an end to this kind of killing, because you have -- you have to remember that we are under occupation, and we need protection. And the Americans have to play a good part in that position.

BLITZER: Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a senior adviser to Yasser Arafat, the president of the Palestinian Authority. Thanks very much. We'll get back to you.

We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: I'll be back later today, every weekday, 5:00 p.m. Eastern, for "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." Among my guests later today, Senator Joe Biden. He's the ranking member of the Foreign Relations Committee. He'll speak about what's happening in Iraq right now, among other subjects.

Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LIVE FROM" with Kyra Phillips is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a senior commander in Iraq, I accept responsibility for what happened at Abu Ghraib.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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