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American Morning

New Photos Surface in Prisoner Abuse Scandal; America Votes 2004: Ground War; Interview With Philip Zimbardo; Interview With Alan Dershowitz

Aired May 21, 2004 - 9:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. forces fighting the rebel army of Muqtada al-Sadr in Karbala, but have American troops finally tracked him down elsewhere? The FBI warns police across the country to be on the lookout for suicide bombers.
And a man and a woman come forward, claiming to be the parents of that abandoned little girl. But there are new suspicions on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody. Welcome to Friday. We always like to say that, do we not?

O'BRIEN: It sounds so good, doesn't it? The last hour on a Friday.

HEMMER: Don't bother us.

In a moment here, from the raid on Ahmed Chalabi's home in Iraq, to the prisoner abuse photos this week, to the fighting now in Gaza, the Middle East has seen a lot of headlines this past week. In a few moments, we'll talk to someone who can help keep all the elements together, make sense of them. Robin Wright from The Washington Post will join us in a moment for that in D.C.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, from the president on down, Americans and others around the world expressing outrage over the prisoner abuse, but could it be that almost anyone in the position of those guards would do the same thing? Our conversation with a psychologist who may have proved just that 33 years ago.

HEMMER: He's got some interesting things to say, too, does he not?

O'BRIEN: Yes.

HEMMER: To Jack Cafferty.

Good morning on a Friday.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

The reviews were pretty good when the show was on the road, but when they brought the 9/11 hearings into New York, some of the critics got very upset. As the commission winds down its work, we want to know if you think it was a good idea or not, AM@CNN.com.

HEMMER: What did you think of John Lehman's comments last hour talking about the Boy Scout (ph) comments?

CAFFERTY: I think he was a big enough man to admit he made a mistake. And a lot of them won't do that. But he should be admired for saying I should have said something different.

HEMMER: He's a New Yorker, too. It's close to home.

CAFFERTY: Yes. You know, I mean it was just a dumb thing to say. We all do that stuff. It was unfortunate that he did it here in front of an audience that is still feeling the effects of what happened almost three years ago.

HEMMER: Thanks Jack.

Top stories. This just in to us here at CNN, word today that four people have been arrested in the killing of American Nicholas Berg. News agencies now reporting that Iraqi police have detained four people in connection with that killing. They were apparently taken into custody last week. The suspects are said to be former members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen group. Berg's body was found in Baghdad on the 8th of May, after he was beheaded on videotape.

From Iraq, also, a convoy possibly carrying radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr was engaged in a firefight with U.S. troops near Najaf. However, the U.S. cannot confirm whether or not al-Sadr was, in fact, part of that convoy.

Also in Iraq, in Karbala, south central part of the country, hospital officials say five Iraqis are dead after skirmishes in that holy city, including a television journalist working for Al Jazeera.

Senate Republicans have decided to postpone a vote on a $2.4 trillion budget. The House narrowly approved the legislation on Wednesday, but key moderate Republican senators opposed the plan because of concerns cutting taxes at a time of record deficits. President Bush urging them to pass that measure. The Senate vote could take place next month.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Well, new photos and video have emerged this morning in the Iraqi prison abuse scandal, this time in The Washington Post. The photos have not yet been authenticated, but apparently show more images of more abuse of the prisoners. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us this morning.

Barbara, good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad. As you say, these images now appearing in the morning edition of The Washington Post. As people look at them, they will come to their own conclusions. But first, let's take a look at the video that The Post broadcast on its Web site.

Now, this video showing an Iraqi detainee backed up against a wall, apparently struck right there by a U.S. soldier. Other soldiers watching. And very quickly now in this video, you will see another Iraqi detainee being dragged across the floor, and then another Iraqi man on his hands and knees, naked, stripped, and what appears to be the beginning of what would become the human pyramid, if you will, that has been seen in so many other pictures. Now, this video was also accompanied on the Web site by six additional new photographs that do appear to show both sexual humiliation and abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, with U.S. troops participating.

The Post also got copies of sworn statements from Iraqi detainees about what happened to them. They did interviews with U.S. military investigators. One man saying, "They forced us to walk like dogs on our hands and knees."

Now, for the Bush administration, another upcoming day of very difficult and bad news on the detainee abuse story. General Richard Myers, other top officials here in the Pentagon will be on Capitol Hill later this morning. They are certain to get more questions about this. And the day perhaps growing even more difficult as these images begin to be seen across the Arab world -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us this morning. Barbara, thanks.

HEMMER: Want to continue on this theme now. As each new photo of Iraqi prisoner abuse makes its way into the Arab media, the image of the U.S. becoming darker. Robin Wright covers the Middle East for The Washington Post, our guest now from D.C.

Robin, welcome back here. And I know you've seen the videotape and many more of the pictures, too, on that latest disk. Your reaction to what you saw.

ROBIN WRIGHT, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, they're horrifying pictures, but I think what is even more alarming and probably will resonate even more in the Islamic world are the accounts from the detainees. Finally, we're getting some kind of explanation of what happened, not just the images but the sequence of events and how these prisoners were treated in a general way, forced to eat pork and alcohol, which are both not acceptable in Islam, sodomized by night sticks. There are a lot of really alarming accounts that were provided to U.S. military interrogators.

HEMMER: Robin, on Wednesday, you wrote a piece in your paper, The Washington Post, talking about a growing fear of failure regarding Iraq. This coming as the meetings were held with Republicans and the president yesterday, talking about a very upbeat meeting with the president. How do we square the images that we're seeing now? WRIGHT: Well, I think it's part of the broader picture, which is one of deep concern, even alarm in Washington, about this critical juncture, less than six weeks left until the transition. And the situation appears to be crumbling in many ways, in terms of the violence, the assassination this week of the president of the Iraqi Governing Council, the escalating violence, these unraveling accounts that are undermining the U.S. image, the confrontation with a man who used to be the U.S. favorite in Iraq, among the Iraqi exiles, Ahmed Chalabi.

So there are a number of real challenges. And the administration is under pressure not only from critics, outsiders, Democrats, but also from many of its own Republicans and officials who are engaged in policymaking.

HEMMER: Yes. And all these stories, too, just cloud out and block out essentially the positive news coming out of Iraq in so many different corners of that country.

Ahmed Chalabi, you mentioned him. You wrote that he was Iraq's Spartacus during the war last year, being flown into -- I believe it was just near the town of Nasiriyah. Now we see him essentially distancing himself from the coalition, and the coalition doing the same in part. What did the U.S. believe they were getting in him when they were pushing him to the forefront of power?

WRIGHT: Well, Ahmed Chalabi is a very well educated and very smart, shrewd, politician who managed to play American politics as well as any American politician. And he linked up with the neo- conservative block within Washington politics and helped shape policy more than any other Iraqi. And really helped define, you know, the U.S. mission. His Iraqi National Congress also provided a great deal of intelligence to the United States through defectors and other reports, some of which has not turned out to be true.

HEMMER: Some have suggested he would have been the Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, or some thought that that was the pattern, anyway, that they wanted to follow through with him. A lot more to talk about. Robin Wright, thanks for your time this morning from The Washington Post in D.C.

WRIGHT: Thank you.

HEMMER: Soledad?

O'BRIEN: A new terror warning comes from the FBI, telling state and local law enforcement agencies to be on the alert for suicide bombers. There isn't any hard proof of a planned attack, but there is concern that summer events, like the political conventions, may encourage terrorists. The FBI bulletin advises to watch for signs such as people wearing bulky jackets in warm weather, or the smelling of chemicals, or even people in stolen police uniforms or disguised as pregnant women.

HEMMER: We talked about that earlier. Clenched fists, too, as well. Not entirely clear what all that might mean. O'BRIEN: Some of it is a little odd, yes.

HEMMER: The warnings out there.

In a moment here, hundreds more prisoners released from Iraq's most notorious prison. Five hundred, in fact, just today. That's ahead in a moment.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, an abandoned little girl and the two people now coming forward claiming to be her parents.

HEMMER: Also, life among the trees in the state of Oregon a bit later on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: This year's race for the White House is extraordinary for a number of reasons. Top among them probably is the money being raised and spent. Close behind, though, is the effort already being put forth to get out the vote. Here to talk about it is national correspondent Kelly Wallace.

Hey, Kelly. Good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

It is unprecedented. Five and a half months before the election, and the ground war is underway in battleground states like Pennsylvania. But there is something else we have never seen before, and that is so many new members of the "get out the vote" team.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm from ACT. My name's Leonard Nesbit (ph).

WALLACE (voice-over): In the Pittsburgh suburbs, home of some of the state's highly coveted swing voters, some new faces. First-time players in the ground war game.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a volunteer for the Allegheny County reelection program.

WALLACE: Like Carl Resuski (ph), a 31-year-old registered Republican, and 45-year-old Leonard Nesbit (ph), an unemployed steelworker who now goes door to door for $8 an hour. Armed with a smile and a Palm Pilot, he's contacting registered voters and helping to sign up new ones.

(on camera): You're trying to mobilize people to go out and vote for the Democratic Party?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm tying to mobilize people to get out and vote, period, to make a difference in this world.

WALLACE: Nesbit (ph) is one of 85 paid staffers in Pennsylvania working for an independent group called America Coming Together, also known as ACT..

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think there's any doubt that AC T is going to make a tremendous difference in Pennsylvania simply by identifying Democrats and others who support John Kerry.

WALLACE: (voice-over): ACT's competition fired up volunteers like Resuski (ph), an artist by day who oversees phone banks at night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's crucial that George Bush wins the presidency this year. I think we're at an important time in our history and he's the only man that can do the job.

WALLACE: While the Bush team has a headquarters in Pennsylvania, the Kerry team has yet to open an office, sharing space with a local Democratic Party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's been very, very effective.

WALLACE: Camp Kerry, gearing up for some 1,000 house parties this month in Pittsburgh, has five paid staffers in the state. Bush- Cheney has 11.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can spend as much as they want on professional staff. It's the quality of your volunteer staff that's going to win this race.

WALLACE: And the stakes of this ground war could not be higher. The road to the White House could very well lead through Pennsylvania.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And in the last presidential election, George W. Bush lost to Al Gore by a little more than 200,000 votes. Since then, Soledad, Republicans say they have learned some lessons from the Democrats and they say they are halfway towards their goal of registering 140,000 new voters by November.

O'BRIEN: We heard one of the last gentleman in your piece say it's the quality of the volunteer staff that makes a difference, it doesn't matter how many people you have on your paid staff. Do you think that's true, that it's really about volunteer mobilization, or is it a combination of the two?

WALLACE: Well, it's a combination of the two. You want to have people fired up and you want to have people willing to do what it takes, going door to door, doing phone banks. But there is something else.

ACT has a national budget of $95 million. It can pay people to go out and do things that maybe other people don't have time to do, to go Monday to Friday in the evenings, or on weekends. So that is a tremendous advantage that these groups do have.

O'BRIEN: All right. Kelly Wallace, thanks.

WALLACE: Sure. O'BRIEN: Bill?

HEMMER: Caseworkers dealing with an abandoned 3-year-old girl in Baltimore say that story now becoming very complicated. Now two people claiming to be little Courtney's father and mother have stepped forward. The woman's attorneys casting some doubt on the account from the man claiming to be her dad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we were to speculate, it's probably because the father has been hiding out in Baltimore and he's been hiding out to keep the little girl away from her mother. So he changed her name, told her that she was Puerto Rican, instead of African-American, and has been hiding away from the law. There's been a warrant out for his arrest. And trying to keep the child away from her mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: According to attorneys, the woman claiming to be Courtney's mother says she plans to ask a judge for custody of the little girl possibly later today in the Baltimore area.

Also, a man from Oregon and his 12-year-old daughter are getting used to living with more of life's little luxuries. Police in Portland say the pair spent the last four years living on a remote hillside in the city's forest park. They were found in their hideout late last month by a cross-country runner who reported them.

The man told police he had virtually no money and no job and that he did not want to expose his daughter to life on the street. They left the shelter twice a week to run errands and go to church. A pediatrician found the girl free of illness and any signs of physical or sexual abuse. They now left the shelter. The man is mowing lawns for a living, and they're sharing a mobile home together in the state of Oregon.

O'BRIEN: Interesting story there.

Still to come this morning, more prisoners released from Abu Ghraib prison as new photos of apparent abuse emerge.

And is K-mart clothing ready for prime time? That story is ahead after AMERICAN MORNING is back after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's exactly half passed the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Just ahead this morning, the darker side of human nature that leads to prisoner abuse. We're going to hear from a renowned Stanford psychologist, Philip Zimbardo, who conducted a famous experiment on this back in the '70s. He'll tell us what he discovered about the human drive for dominance over other people.

HEMMER: Also this half-hour, we'll look into some legal implications of the war on terror. Attorney Alan Dershowitz our guest here in the studio. Talking with him today about what the Supreme Court may decide for detainees at Gitmo, among a number of other legal issues. Stay tuned for that.

O'BRIEN: You're going to talk about some high-profile cases in the news right now as well.

HEMMER: Looking forward to it.

O'BRIEN: While we've got him.

HEMMER: While we've got him.

Now, top stories here at the half-hour. In the past half-hour, in fact, 30 minutes ago, CNN learning new details in the investigation of the beheading of American Nicholas Berg. A senior military coalition official says coalition forces apprehended four people in connection with Berg's killing.

Two have been released, we're told. The other two may be released after questioning. Berg's body was found in Baghdad back on the 8th of May after he was beheaded.

More Iraqi detainees are being freed from the Abu Ghraib prison. Busloads of Iraqi prisoners, almost 500 in all, left the jail. About 500 again released today. This follows a release last week of about 350. Coalition officials say the population eventually will be cut to about 2,500 at that particular facility.

After a week of deadly clashes, Israel says it's pulling troops out of southern Gaza. The Rafah refugee camp was the scene of ongoing clashes this week. Palestinian sources say 40 were killed in the violence. Israel says the offensive was aimed at targeting militants and closing down tunnels, it says, that were being used for smuggling of weapons from the border with Egypt. The Israeli operation had come under international criticism this past week.

U.S. politics: President Bush campaigning today in Louisiana. The president set to give a commencement speech at LSU, and then he'll do some fundraising for Republicans at a suburb outside of New Orleans.

Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry is in Boston and then Connecticut for private events. The campaigning continues this Friday.

You're up to date, 9:32 in New York.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: As the images of apparent abuse at Abu Ghraib continue to be released, perhaps the most disturbing element is seeing American soldiers from ordinary backgrounds who seem to be capable of monstrous things. It raises the question, is the capacity for cruelty inherent in all of us? Phil Zimbardo, professor of psychology at Stanford University, asked a question like that in a famous experiment three decades ago. And he joined us earlier this morning on AMERICAN MORNING. And I first asked him to give us a synopsis of how he did his prison study back in 1971.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILIP ZIMBARDO, CONDUCTED PRISON ABUSE EXPERIMENT: What we did was we created a mock prison, where we had college students play the role of prisoners and guards. It was supposed to go for two weeks. And what happened is I had to end it after six days because it was out of control.

Boys who were selected because they were good, normal, healthy young men, if they were playing the role of guards began to abuse those roles, be cruel and sadistic, doing all of the things you see here at the Iraqi prison. Stripped the prisoners naked, put bags over their heads, chained them, and then began to humiliate them. And finally, began to do the sexual humiliation, which approximates what we see in Iraq.

O'BRIEN: These are all things that you say happened in the study that was supposed to last for two weeks, and you ended it, cutting it off at six days. How quickly did things get out of control, to use your phrase?

ZIMBARDO: Well, it was probably the third or fourth day. Our situation was very, very intense, so it accelerated what in Iraq probably took a month or so to get into. And I think what we see in Iraq, we have to really understand that this is a process, that when you see a picture, you think it's at that moment, but, in fact, this happened over months.

So these young men and women got socialized into this new role, into this role of prison guard who was there to abuse these prisoners. They break them to get confessions.

O'BRIEN: In your study, was the group -- or was there a handful of sort of bad apples in the group who were these college students who were prison guards, who basically brought everybody else along with them?

ZIMBARDO: No. See, that's what's been happening all from Bush down. They're saying it's a few bad apples, it's isolated.

What's bad is the barrel. The barrel is the barrel I created in my prison, and we knew we put good boys in, just as in this Iraqi prison. And the barrel corrupts.

It's the barrel of the evil of prisons, with secrecy, with no accountable, which gives people permission to do things they ordinarily would not. So in the Iraqi situation, I know that there is boredom.

It's an incredibly stressful job, they're very much afraid, there's no accountability. And what you didn't have in my prison, you didn't have the CIA encouraging them to do it. And I think what is critical is trying to understand these trophy picture, which doesn't make sense.

Why would you take a picture of yourself in front of your crime if you thought about the consequences? And that's where -- what I call the Mardi Gras effect comes in. These people were trapped in a present-oriented time zone in which you never think of the future, you never think of the past.

So at no point did they ever say, you know, gee, we will be in trouble if these pictures ever come out. These are trophy pictures.

O'BRIEN: How do you explain, though, the two or more who said no, I refuse to be involved?

ZIMBARDO: Well, see, those are the heroes. I mean, in our study, we had good guards who didn't get involved. But in our study, they never challenged the bad guards.

So what you have is powerful situational forces that get the majority to do things they say they would never do. And this is not just my study. There's 30 years of studies by social psychologist.

But the interesting thing is, there's always a few people who blow the whistle at Enron, My Lai, which is again a direct parallel. But those are the rear people, those are the exceptions. We like to think we would be the heroes, but, in fact, most of us, the majority would go along, would blindly obey authority, would do these dehumanizing things to other people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was Professor Phil Zimbardo with us earlier this morning, giving us a different perspective on the prison abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

Attorney Alan Dershowitz has had a front row seat for some of America's most celebrated criminal cases. He's got a new book out, and it examines how trials throughout the history have captivated the country and also changed the legal system. It's called "America on Trial." Alan Dershowitz joins us this morning to talk about it.

Nice to see you. Thanks for being with us.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: Thank you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: We're actually going to start where your book ends off, because you end up by talking about the Guantanamo detainees. And actually, it has a lot to do with what may happen, I think, with the prisoners at Abu Ghraib. What kind of an impact do you think this decision that we're expecting to hear from the Supreme Court soon will have on other prisoners, besides the Guantanamo detainees?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, the whole thesis of my book, "America on Trial," is that cases are determined not by lawyers' arguments but what goes on outside. So, for example, these Supreme Court decisions, which I end my book with, might have come out differently but for the pictures.

The pictures will have more of an impact on the Supreme Court decision than all of the arguments of all the lawyers. I mean, the book starts with Salem witchcraft, ends with the detainees in Guantanamo. No coincidence, because today's terrorism was yesterday's witchcraft. The difference, terrorism exists, witchcraft didn't. But to the people in America in the 1600s, witchcraft was as real as terrorism.

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about some high profile cases, because it seems like there is a ton of media attention about these cases and also a ton of public attention as well. And I think they go hand in hand.

For example, the Michael Jackson case. The judge has upheld a gag order. You've worked on cases I know where there has been a gag order and where there has not been a gag order.

DERSHOWITZ: Right.

O'BRIEN: Which do you think is preferable? And I don't mean as an attorney representing the client. I mean in the best interest of justice overall.

DERSHOWITZ: Sure. Oh, there's no question, gag orders make no sense. All they do is drive the discussion underground. Lawyers start leaking speculations rampant. The public has the right to know, and we should trust our legal system to be able to deal with public disclosures.

O'BRIEN: Why do you think there's much more of -- it feels to me like there is a much bigger appetite for these kinds of trials, maybe even starting with the O.J. Simpson trial 10 years ago. Why do you think that is? Is it just sort of there's more TV out there and more on?

DERSHOWITZ: It's more apparent than real. Every one of the cases I discuss in "America on Trial" was discovered extensively by the media. And the media was different in those days.

When Aaron Burr, the vice president of the United States, was put on trial, it was a media frenzy. When Abraham Lincoln's assassins were put on trial, every newspaper covered it. The Lindbergh kidnapping, it was a media circus.

O'BRIEN: So it's not worse today.

DERSHOWITZ: It's not worse today, it's just that, with 24-hour cable, we see it more intrusively. But I think it's a good thing.

O'BRIEN: I won't take any offense.

DERSHOWITZ: I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing because, after all, the legal system is ours. We own it. We should be able to observe it and watch it. So I'm in favor of televising trials, I'm in favor of the public having a say.

O'BRIEN: When you see a case like Kobe Bryant's trial -- that's heading toward trial -- do you think that that's a case that is historically significant?

DERSHOWITZ: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Really? That would be a case that would kind of make your book if you were doing this again in another hundred years?

DERSHOWITZ: And I will maybe in 10 years. Kobe will make it because it is a case about the cutting edge of rape law, rape shield, balancing the rights of the alleged victim with the rights of the alleged defendant.

It's a very important case, much more than many of the other cases. The other cases I think would make it I think would be Martha Stewart, rich woman totally messed up by her own lawyers. I mean, she hires what she thinks is the best lawyers and they...

O'BRIEN: And you wrote a pretty scathing op-ed on that.

DERSHOWITZ: Oh, yes. They behaved like Dr. Kevorkian, walking her to her legal death, instead of saving her.

O'BRIEN: O.J. Simpson's 10-year anniversary, many people -- there was a lot of criticism about that case. That it was just sort of overdone. Not even the specifics of the case itself, just that there was just too much. And I actually thought it was a fascinating look inside look at the justice system.

DERSHOWITZ: It was. And the only reason I include O.J. Simpson, it was not a great case in terms of the legal issues or the factual issues, but because it was so racially divisive and because it gave America their first look inside a high-profile case like this. It deserves inclusion in any list of great American trials.

O'BRIEN: Fascinating book. The book is called "America on Trial." Alan Dershowitz, nice to see you. Thanks for coming in to talk to us.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you so much.

O'BRIEN: Bill?

HEMMER: Soledad, in a moment here, providing a place for kids who might be at risk for physical abuse at home. That is this week's 'Extra Effort' in a moment.

And the big green is looking to bring in a lot of it in the box office over the weekend. "90-Second Pop" today and a whole new panel of pundits in a moment after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Yes, it's a death trap and a suicide wrap every morning here on AMERICAN MORNING. Time for "90-Second Pop." It's my sincere pleasure to introduce a whole new panel of pundits. Josh Elliott back with us from SI, Sports Illustrated; Clarissa Cruz from Entertainment Weekly; and Joel Stein from TIME Magazine.

How are you guys doing, huh? It's a Friday. Not bad.

The Fox Network is going to do a whole new deal with their programming. No reruns, all new programming.

CLARISSA CRUZ, STAFF WRITER, ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Totally.

HEMMER: Do you like the strategy?

CRUZ: Well, they're touting it as this whole revolutionary new thing.

HEMMER: And is it?

CRUZ: Yes, I mean, in a way it is. Because even though introducing programs in summer isn't anything new, what they're doing is, instead of reruns of things like "The Simpsons" and "King of the Hill," they're going to have all new programming in June, like "The Simple Life II," which we're all excited about, and a sitcom starring (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is another...

HEMMER: And all that goes against conventional wisdom when it comes to programming. This is baptism by fire, right?

CRUZ: Totally, totally. But, you know, they have to compete with all of the cable networks and all of the different things on TV. So...

JOSH ELLIOT, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED: I would think that they're daring America to prove just reality mad we are. If you've looked, you have "The Simple Life II" coming out, you have "The Casino" coming out. I think what we've learned over the last year or two are that people are willing to make reality television a point of viewing even if it means coming in a little early...

HEMMER: And the other thing is it's cheap programming, too. I mean, you don't have to go into rehearsals and trials and figure out what kind of script and what kind of line works for...

(CROSSTALK)

ELLIOT: And who among us did not discover "90210" back in the summer of...

CRUZ: I mean, they do have scripted programming as well. So it's not going to...

HEMMER: Yes, they do.

Let's talk about the world of sports. Kelly White is a sprinter, and now apparently she is, I guess, a bit of a turncoat, too. She is saying that she confessed she used steroids and now she's willing to talk. The implications of this story could be huge.

ELLIOT: Right. Once again it's Balco. We've heard it throughout the year, basically connected to baseball players. But now it turns out that she had some connection with Balco, she has admitted using steroids. And she said in exchange for a much lesser ban, of two years, in her case, she's willing to sing.

HEMMER: But she's going to take all the titles she has won over the past four years, right...

ELLIOT: Yes.

HEMMER: ... and turn them back in and sacrifice them?

ELLIOT: Yes. Actually, she won the 100 and 200 last year's world championships, but this is all about Marion Jones. Now Marion Jones is back. Yesterday, wrote to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and said, look, I'd like to come in now and discuss my connection to Balco.

JOEL STEIN, TIME MAGAZINE: This is smart for Kelly White, because now she's famous, right?

ELLIOT: Absolutely. She's famous, and she can compete conceivably again.

STEIN: She could have won like five gold medals and we wouldn't know her.

HEMMER: She can't compete in Athens this summer...

ELLIOT: No.

STEIN: No.

HEMMER: ... which would have been a boom for her had she done well.

STEIN: Not as much of a boom as, you know, getting her name on TV like this.

HEMMER: Well, that's probably true as well. But I think -- why?

STEIN: Well, I mean, I don't want to see guys hit like 40 home runs again. I want to go back to the time when no one could break the four-minute mile.

ELLIOT: You know, it's an interesting point, because the U.S. says it's committed to sending a clean team to Athens. I hope they're also committed to sending a team that probably won't win very many medals.

HEMMER: Listen, ultimately, it depends on who she's willing to rat out, too. Let's talk about the movies. You were there last night.

ELLIOT: Yes, I'm the sucker. I'm the sucker. HEMMER: Did you like or no like?

ELLIOT: You know what? I liked. I liked. I have to admit, I didn't see "Shrek" One, but I was told it wouldn't be a problem, and it turns out it wasn't. It's smart.

HEMMER: Were you able to follow it?

ELLIOT: Yes. I know, shockingly enough.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: I bet you do. Does this knock out "Troy," by the way, this weekend do you think?

CRUZ: Oh, I'm sure.

ELLIOT: It's got to.

CRUZ: It made $11 million yesterday, which broke the record...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it would have been $10,999...

STEIN: Now how did they convince you to go? You're just a sucker.

ELLIOT: Well, they said that I would be lost in the discussion had I not, Joel.

STEIN: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: We've got to run. We're going to save it for later. Thanks. Have a great weekend, OK? Good to see all three of you.

Soledad?

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, a place of refuge for children who may be in danger at home. Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Our 'Extra Effort' series is a weekly tribute to those who go the extra mile to help others. This morning, we meet two Colorado women who set up a shelter to protect children from potentially abusive parents.

KPC Kids' Place takes in children so that stressed out and angry parents have a little time to cool down. And joining us this morning from Colorado Springs, Rita Wiley and Annette Blackhart. They're founders of KPC Kids' Place.

Ladies, good morning. Thanks for being with us. And Rita, let's begin with you. I know that KPC actually stands for Kevin Patrick Caleum. Who was he?

RITA WILEY, KPC KIDS' PLACE: He was a five-and-a-half-month-old baby boy who was shaken to death by the step grandmother when she was caring for him for the mother, who was a single parent.

O'BRIEN: Because she really couldn't deal with the stress of dealing with a young infant. It's not a shelter case you see exactly. What is it?

WILEY: It's a safe environment for children when parents cannot or should not be in charge of their kids, that they need a break or a time-out.

O'BRIEN: So then, Annette, you opened on May 1. How exactly does it work? I know you've had 37 intakes in the very short time you've been open, which is pretty impressive. How does it work?

ANNETTE BLACKHART, KPC KIDS' PLACE: Well, a parent starts out by calling us, and the intake starts over the phone. They tell us what's going on, why they think they need to place their child in a safe environment.

Then a time is set up, and that could be as soon as the parent can come to us. We then sit down with the parent and go through a lot of paper work. And then we take the child into the house, and our parent advocates then work with the parents to connect them to resources in our community that could alleviate whatever the crisis or the stressor is for the family.

O'BRIEN: I think certainly any parent -- forgive me for jumping in there -- but I think certainly any parent can understand the stress that any other parent could be under. I know you take kids as super young to up to six years old.

So do you provide counseling on site for the parents? What happens with the parents? How do you get them over their anger and their exhaustion and their frustration when dealing with their toddler?

BLACKHART: Well, we help them identify what their goals on. We don't dictate to them what their goals are. And maybe it's a referral that they need for having a new baby, or maybe it's a parent that's getting back into the work force.

It can be a lot of different situations. We work with women that are in domestic violence situations, and maybe they have just entered into the women's shelter and they need a time to sit down and think and sort out what kind of a plan they want to create for them. And then we help them identify their strengths.

O'BRIEN: Rita, may I ask you a question? I know the goal has been to keep the children up to 72 hours, giving the parents really a fairly long break. How long are you able to keep the kids for now, and how do you plan to make up that gap? WILEY: Well, right now, we're doing all of our staff coverage with volunteers, primarily, and also a few -- well, the staff, like Annette and I, are over there all of the time. Our board president has been there all of the time. We're open from 8:00 in the morning until 10:00 p.m. at night.

And we will make exceptions. If a parent needs all-night care, we will provide all-night care. But right now, because we open primarily with volunteers due to a lack of funding, it's been very difficult.

The economy has been flat, and foundations haven't been funding. And so getting start-up funding was just not doable for right now. But we decided we had to open the nursery because we couldn't see having another child die as a consequence of the parent not having a place to leave them.

O'BRIEN: Well, maybe folks will realize what a good cause this is. Rita Wiley and Annette Blackhart, the founders of the KPC Kids' Place, thanks for joining us this morning to talk about your program. Appreciate it.

WILEY: Thank you.

BLACKHART: Thanks, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Bill?

HEMMER: Next hour here on CNN, the president's Louisiana speech has become a bit of a family tradition. Daryn Kagan has that next hour. We're back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: To Jack back again. E-mails before we get out of here.

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.

Quickly, how worthwhile the 9/11 hearings have they been? They're due to wrap up a final report in July. Got a lot of answers from folks.

Jim in Boca Raton: "Hard to imagine of asking questions about what went wrong and what went right on September 11 could be harmful. In spite of the roadblocks the commission has encountered, it will probably come up with some very good recommendations. Then the question will be, will we act on them?"

Tom in Knoxville, Iowa: "If the intent of the hearings was to provide a forum for finger-pointing and blame-slinging, then I guess they succeeded. Other than that, I don't see how any of this helped.

And Hector in New Orleans, Louisiana, "Sure the 9/11 hearings have been wonderful. Who can forget Condi's mad dash for interviews on every network TV news show known to man to get the absolutely essential word out that she and her boss new absolutely nothing about anything?"

Oh, Hector. You're such a cynic.

Join us this weekend for "IN THE MONEY." Andy and I and Susan will be there. We're six weeks away from turning over control to the Iraqis. Well, we're not. The United States government is. We'll take a closer look at what it will take for the U.S. to succeed in that endeavor.

"IN THE MONEY" airs Saturday at 1:00, Sunday at 3:00. All Eastern Daylight Time. I hope you can join us for that.

HEMMER: Forty days and counting. Have a good weekend, all right? All right, hit me harder. Come on. It's your chance.

CAFFERTY: No.

HEMMER: Here's Daryn Kagan at the CNN Center.

Hey, Daryn.

O'BRIEN: I'll do it.

HEMMER: I know you will.

Hey, Daryn. How's it going?

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Everyone just get along. I'm sending you guys to your rooms. Everyone's going in time-out. You guys have a great time-out over the weekend, all right? Have a great weekend in New York City.

We'll get started. We're at CNN headquarters in Atlanta. I'm Daryn Kagan.


Aired May 21, 2004 - 9:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. forces fighting the rebel army of Muqtada al-Sadr in Karbala, but have American troops finally tracked him down elsewhere? The FBI warns police across the country to be on the lookout for suicide bombers.
And a man and a woman come forward, claiming to be the parents of that abandoned little girl. But there are new suspicions on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody. Welcome to Friday. We always like to say that, do we not?

O'BRIEN: It sounds so good, doesn't it? The last hour on a Friday.

HEMMER: Don't bother us.

In a moment here, from the raid on Ahmed Chalabi's home in Iraq, to the prisoner abuse photos this week, to the fighting now in Gaza, the Middle East has seen a lot of headlines this past week. In a few moments, we'll talk to someone who can help keep all the elements together, make sense of them. Robin Wright from The Washington Post will join us in a moment for that in D.C.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, from the president on down, Americans and others around the world expressing outrage over the prisoner abuse, but could it be that almost anyone in the position of those guards would do the same thing? Our conversation with a psychologist who may have proved just that 33 years ago.

HEMMER: He's got some interesting things to say, too, does he not?

O'BRIEN: Yes.

HEMMER: To Jack Cafferty.

Good morning on a Friday.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.

The reviews were pretty good when the show was on the road, but when they brought the 9/11 hearings into New York, some of the critics got very upset. As the commission winds down its work, we want to know if you think it was a good idea or not, AM@CNN.com.

HEMMER: What did you think of John Lehman's comments last hour talking about the Boy Scout (ph) comments?

CAFFERTY: I think he was a big enough man to admit he made a mistake. And a lot of them won't do that. But he should be admired for saying I should have said something different.

HEMMER: He's a New Yorker, too. It's close to home.

CAFFERTY: Yes. You know, I mean it was just a dumb thing to say. We all do that stuff. It was unfortunate that he did it here in front of an audience that is still feeling the effects of what happened almost three years ago.

HEMMER: Thanks Jack.

Top stories. This just in to us here at CNN, word today that four people have been arrested in the killing of American Nicholas Berg. News agencies now reporting that Iraqi police have detained four people in connection with that killing. They were apparently taken into custody last week. The suspects are said to be former members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen group. Berg's body was found in Baghdad on the 8th of May, after he was beheaded on videotape.

From Iraq, also, a convoy possibly carrying radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr was engaged in a firefight with U.S. troops near Najaf. However, the U.S. cannot confirm whether or not al-Sadr was, in fact, part of that convoy.

Also in Iraq, in Karbala, south central part of the country, hospital officials say five Iraqis are dead after skirmishes in that holy city, including a television journalist working for Al Jazeera.

Senate Republicans have decided to postpone a vote on a $2.4 trillion budget. The House narrowly approved the legislation on Wednesday, but key moderate Republican senators opposed the plan because of concerns cutting taxes at a time of record deficits. President Bush urging them to pass that measure. The Senate vote could take place next month.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Well, new photos and video have emerged this morning in the Iraqi prison abuse scandal, this time in The Washington Post. The photos have not yet been authenticated, but apparently show more images of more abuse of the prisoners. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us this morning.

Barbara, good morning.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad. As you say, these images now appearing in the morning edition of The Washington Post. As people look at them, they will come to their own conclusions. But first, let's take a look at the video that The Post broadcast on its Web site.

Now, this video showing an Iraqi detainee backed up against a wall, apparently struck right there by a U.S. soldier. Other soldiers watching. And very quickly now in this video, you will see another Iraqi detainee being dragged across the floor, and then another Iraqi man on his hands and knees, naked, stripped, and what appears to be the beginning of what would become the human pyramid, if you will, that has been seen in so many other pictures. Now, this video was also accompanied on the Web site by six additional new photographs that do appear to show both sexual humiliation and abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison, with U.S. troops participating.

The Post also got copies of sworn statements from Iraqi detainees about what happened to them. They did interviews with U.S. military investigators. One man saying, "They forced us to walk like dogs on our hands and knees."

Now, for the Bush administration, another upcoming day of very difficult and bad news on the detainee abuse story. General Richard Myers, other top officials here in the Pentagon will be on Capitol Hill later this morning. They are certain to get more questions about this. And the day perhaps growing even more difficult as these images begin to be seen across the Arab world -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us this morning. Barbara, thanks.

HEMMER: Want to continue on this theme now. As each new photo of Iraqi prisoner abuse makes its way into the Arab media, the image of the U.S. becoming darker. Robin Wright covers the Middle East for The Washington Post, our guest now from D.C.

Robin, welcome back here. And I know you've seen the videotape and many more of the pictures, too, on that latest disk. Your reaction to what you saw.

ROBIN WRIGHT, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, they're horrifying pictures, but I think what is even more alarming and probably will resonate even more in the Islamic world are the accounts from the detainees. Finally, we're getting some kind of explanation of what happened, not just the images but the sequence of events and how these prisoners were treated in a general way, forced to eat pork and alcohol, which are both not acceptable in Islam, sodomized by night sticks. There are a lot of really alarming accounts that were provided to U.S. military interrogators.

HEMMER: Robin, on Wednesday, you wrote a piece in your paper, The Washington Post, talking about a growing fear of failure regarding Iraq. This coming as the meetings were held with Republicans and the president yesterday, talking about a very upbeat meeting with the president. How do we square the images that we're seeing now? WRIGHT: Well, I think it's part of the broader picture, which is one of deep concern, even alarm in Washington, about this critical juncture, less than six weeks left until the transition. And the situation appears to be crumbling in many ways, in terms of the violence, the assassination this week of the president of the Iraqi Governing Council, the escalating violence, these unraveling accounts that are undermining the U.S. image, the confrontation with a man who used to be the U.S. favorite in Iraq, among the Iraqi exiles, Ahmed Chalabi.

So there are a number of real challenges. And the administration is under pressure not only from critics, outsiders, Democrats, but also from many of its own Republicans and officials who are engaged in policymaking.

HEMMER: Yes. And all these stories, too, just cloud out and block out essentially the positive news coming out of Iraq in so many different corners of that country.

Ahmed Chalabi, you mentioned him. You wrote that he was Iraq's Spartacus during the war last year, being flown into -- I believe it was just near the town of Nasiriyah. Now we see him essentially distancing himself from the coalition, and the coalition doing the same in part. What did the U.S. believe they were getting in him when they were pushing him to the forefront of power?

WRIGHT: Well, Ahmed Chalabi is a very well educated and very smart, shrewd, politician who managed to play American politics as well as any American politician. And he linked up with the neo- conservative block within Washington politics and helped shape policy more than any other Iraqi. And really helped define, you know, the U.S. mission. His Iraqi National Congress also provided a great deal of intelligence to the United States through defectors and other reports, some of which has not turned out to be true.

HEMMER: Some have suggested he would have been the Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, or some thought that that was the pattern, anyway, that they wanted to follow through with him. A lot more to talk about. Robin Wright, thanks for your time this morning from The Washington Post in D.C.

WRIGHT: Thank you.

HEMMER: Soledad?

O'BRIEN: A new terror warning comes from the FBI, telling state and local law enforcement agencies to be on the alert for suicide bombers. There isn't any hard proof of a planned attack, but there is concern that summer events, like the political conventions, may encourage terrorists. The FBI bulletin advises to watch for signs such as people wearing bulky jackets in warm weather, or the smelling of chemicals, or even people in stolen police uniforms or disguised as pregnant women.

HEMMER: We talked about that earlier. Clenched fists, too, as well. Not entirely clear what all that might mean. O'BRIEN: Some of it is a little odd, yes.

HEMMER: The warnings out there.

In a moment here, hundreds more prisoners released from Iraq's most notorious prison. Five hundred, in fact, just today. That's ahead in a moment.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, an abandoned little girl and the two people now coming forward claiming to be her parents.

HEMMER: Also, life among the trees in the state of Oregon a bit later on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: This year's race for the White House is extraordinary for a number of reasons. Top among them probably is the money being raised and spent. Close behind, though, is the effort already being put forth to get out the vote. Here to talk about it is national correspondent Kelly Wallace.

Hey, Kelly. Good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

It is unprecedented. Five and a half months before the election, and the ground war is underway in battleground states like Pennsylvania. But there is something else we have never seen before, and that is so many new members of the "get out the vote" team.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm from ACT. My name's Leonard Nesbit (ph).

WALLACE (voice-over): In the Pittsburgh suburbs, home of some of the state's highly coveted swing voters, some new faces. First-time players in the ground war game.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a volunteer for the Allegheny County reelection program.

WALLACE: Like Carl Resuski (ph), a 31-year-old registered Republican, and 45-year-old Leonard Nesbit (ph), an unemployed steelworker who now goes door to door for $8 an hour. Armed with a smile and a Palm Pilot, he's contacting registered voters and helping to sign up new ones.

(on camera): You're trying to mobilize people to go out and vote for the Democratic Party?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm tying to mobilize people to get out and vote, period, to make a difference in this world.

WALLACE: Nesbit (ph) is one of 85 paid staffers in Pennsylvania working for an independent group called America Coming Together, also known as ACT..

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think there's any doubt that AC T is going to make a tremendous difference in Pennsylvania simply by identifying Democrats and others who support John Kerry.

WALLACE: (voice-over): ACT's competition fired up volunteers like Resuski (ph), an artist by day who oversees phone banks at night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's crucial that George Bush wins the presidency this year. I think we're at an important time in our history and he's the only man that can do the job.

WALLACE: While the Bush team has a headquarters in Pennsylvania, the Kerry team has yet to open an office, sharing space with a local Democratic Party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's been very, very effective.

WALLACE: Camp Kerry, gearing up for some 1,000 house parties this month in Pittsburgh, has five paid staffers in the state. Bush- Cheney has 11.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can spend as much as they want on professional staff. It's the quality of your volunteer staff that's going to win this race.

WALLACE: And the stakes of this ground war could not be higher. The road to the White House could very well lead through Pennsylvania.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And in the last presidential election, George W. Bush lost to Al Gore by a little more than 200,000 votes. Since then, Soledad, Republicans say they have learned some lessons from the Democrats and they say they are halfway towards their goal of registering 140,000 new voters by November.

O'BRIEN: We heard one of the last gentleman in your piece say it's the quality of the volunteer staff that makes a difference, it doesn't matter how many people you have on your paid staff. Do you think that's true, that it's really about volunteer mobilization, or is it a combination of the two?

WALLACE: Well, it's a combination of the two. You want to have people fired up and you want to have people willing to do what it takes, going door to door, doing phone banks. But there is something else.

ACT has a national budget of $95 million. It can pay people to go out and do things that maybe other people don't have time to do, to go Monday to Friday in the evenings, or on weekends. So that is a tremendous advantage that these groups do have.

O'BRIEN: All right. Kelly Wallace, thanks.

WALLACE: Sure. O'BRIEN: Bill?

HEMMER: Caseworkers dealing with an abandoned 3-year-old girl in Baltimore say that story now becoming very complicated. Now two people claiming to be little Courtney's father and mother have stepped forward. The woman's attorneys casting some doubt on the account from the man claiming to be her dad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we were to speculate, it's probably because the father has been hiding out in Baltimore and he's been hiding out to keep the little girl away from her mother. So he changed her name, told her that she was Puerto Rican, instead of African-American, and has been hiding away from the law. There's been a warrant out for his arrest. And trying to keep the child away from her mom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: According to attorneys, the woman claiming to be Courtney's mother says she plans to ask a judge for custody of the little girl possibly later today in the Baltimore area.

Also, a man from Oregon and his 12-year-old daughter are getting used to living with more of life's little luxuries. Police in Portland say the pair spent the last four years living on a remote hillside in the city's forest park. They were found in their hideout late last month by a cross-country runner who reported them.

The man told police he had virtually no money and no job and that he did not want to expose his daughter to life on the street. They left the shelter twice a week to run errands and go to church. A pediatrician found the girl free of illness and any signs of physical or sexual abuse. They now left the shelter. The man is mowing lawns for a living, and they're sharing a mobile home together in the state of Oregon.

O'BRIEN: Interesting story there.

Still to come this morning, more prisoners released from Abu Ghraib prison as new photos of apparent abuse emerge.

And is K-mart clothing ready for prime time? That story is ahead after AMERICAN MORNING is back after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's exactly half passed the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Just ahead this morning, the darker side of human nature that leads to prisoner abuse. We're going to hear from a renowned Stanford psychologist, Philip Zimbardo, who conducted a famous experiment on this back in the '70s. He'll tell us what he discovered about the human drive for dominance over other people.

HEMMER: Also this half-hour, we'll look into some legal implications of the war on terror. Attorney Alan Dershowitz our guest here in the studio. Talking with him today about what the Supreme Court may decide for detainees at Gitmo, among a number of other legal issues. Stay tuned for that.

O'BRIEN: You're going to talk about some high-profile cases in the news right now as well.

HEMMER: Looking forward to it.

O'BRIEN: While we've got him.

HEMMER: While we've got him.

Now, top stories here at the half-hour. In the past half-hour, in fact, 30 minutes ago, CNN learning new details in the investigation of the beheading of American Nicholas Berg. A senior military coalition official says coalition forces apprehended four people in connection with Berg's killing.

Two have been released, we're told. The other two may be released after questioning. Berg's body was found in Baghdad back on the 8th of May after he was beheaded.

More Iraqi detainees are being freed from the Abu Ghraib prison. Busloads of Iraqi prisoners, almost 500 in all, left the jail. About 500 again released today. This follows a release last week of about 350. Coalition officials say the population eventually will be cut to about 2,500 at that particular facility.

After a week of deadly clashes, Israel says it's pulling troops out of southern Gaza. The Rafah refugee camp was the scene of ongoing clashes this week. Palestinian sources say 40 were killed in the violence. Israel says the offensive was aimed at targeting militants and closing down tunnels, it says, that were being used for smuggling of weapons from the border with Egypt. The Israeli operation had come under international criticism this past week.

U.S. politics: President Bush campaigning today in Louisiana. The president set to give a commencement speech at LSU, and then he'll do some fundraising for Republicans at a suburb outside of New Orleans.

Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry is in Boston and then Connecticut for private events. The campaigning continues this Friday.

You're up to date, 9:32 in New York.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: As the images of apparent abuse at Abu Ghraib continue to be released, perhaps the most disturbing element is seeing American soldiers from ordinary backgrounds who seem to be capable of monstrous things. It raises the question, is the capacity for cruelty inherent in all of us? Phil Zimbardo, professor of psychology at Stanford University, asked a question like that in a famous experiment three decades ago. And he joined us earlier this morning on AMERICAN MORNING. And I first asked him to give us a synopsis of how he did his prison study back in 1971.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHILIP ZIMBARDO, CONDUCTED PRISON ABUSE EXPERIMENT: What we did was we created a mock prison, where we had college students play the role of prisoners and guards. It was supposed to go for two weeks. And what happened is I had to end it after six days because it was out of control.

Boys who were selected because they were good, normal, healthy young men, if they were playing the role of guards began to abuse those roles, be cruel and sadistic, doing all of the things you see here at the Iraqi prison. Stripped the prisoners naked, put bags over their heads, chained them, and then began to humiliate them. And finally, began to do the sexual humiliation, which approximates what we see in Iraq.

O'BRIEN: These are all things that you say happened in the study that was supposed to last for two weeks, and you ended it, cutting it off at six days. How quickly did things get out of control, to use your phrase?

ZIMBARDO: Well, it was probably the third or fourth day. Our situation was very, very intense, so it accelerated what in Iraq probably took a month or so to get into. And I think what we see in Iraq, we have to really understand that this is a process, that when you see a picture, you think it's at that moment, but, in fact, this happened over months.

So these young men and women got socialized into this new role, into this role of prison guard who was there to abuse these prisoners. They break them to get confessions.

O'BRIEN: In your study, was the group -- or was there a handful of sort of bad apples in the group who were these college students who were prison guards, who basically brought everybody else along with them?

ZIMBARDO: No. See, that's what's been happening all from Bush down. They're saying it's a few bad apples, it's isolated.

What's bad is the barrel. The barrel is the barrel I created in my prison, and we knew we put good boys in, just as in this Iraqi prison. And the barrel corrupts.

It's the barrel of the evil of prisons, with secrecy, with no accountable, which gives people permission to do things they ordinarily would not. So in the Iraqi situation, I know that there is boredom.

It's an incredibly stressful job, they're very much afraid, there's no accountability. And what you didn't have in my prison, you didn't have the CIA encouraging them to do it. And I think what is critical is trying to understand these trophy picture, which doesn't make sense.

Why would you take a picture of yourself in front of your crime if you thought about the consequences? And that's where -- what I call the Mardi Gras effect comes in. These people were trapped in a present-oriented time zone in which you never think of the future, you never think of the past.

So at no point did they ever say, you know, gee, we will be in trouble if these pictures ever come out. These are trophy pictures.

O'BRIEN: How do you explain, though, the two or more who said no, I refuse to be involved?

ZIMBARDO: Well, see, those are the heroes. I mean, in our study, we had good guards who didn't get involved. But in our study, they never challenged the bad guards.

So what you have is powerful situational forces that get the majority to do things they say they would never do. And this is not just my study. There's 30 years of studies by social psychologist.

But the interesting thing is, there's always a few people who blow the whistle at Enron, My Lai, which is again a direct parallel. But those are the rear people, those are the exceptions. We like to think we would be the heroes, but, in fact, most of us, the majority would go along, would blindly obey authority, would do these dehumanizing things to other people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was Professor Phil Zimbardo with us earlier this morning, giving us a different perspective on the prison abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

Attorney Alan Dershowitz has had a front row seat for some of America's most celebrated criminal cases. He's got a new book out, and it examines how trials throughout the history have captivated the country and also changed the legal system. It's called "America on Trial." Alan Dershowitz joins us this morning to talk about it.

Nice to see you. Thanks for being with us.

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ATTORNEY: Thank you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: We're actually going to start where your book ends off, because you end up by talking about the Guantanamo detainees. And actually, it has a lot to do with what may happen, I think, with the prisoners at Abu Ghraib. What kind of an impact do you think this decision that we're expecting to hear from the Supreme Court soon will have on other prisoners, besides the Guantanamo detainees?

DERSHOWITZ: Well, the whole thesis of my book, "America on Trial," is that cases are determined not by lawyers' arguments but what goes on outside. So, for example, these Supreme Court decisions, which I end my book with, might have come out differently but for the pictures.

The pictures will have more of an impact on the Supreme Court decision than all of the arguments of all the lawyers. I mean, the book starts with Salem witchcraft, ends with the detainees in Guantanamo. No coincidence, because today's terrorism was yesterday's witchcraft. The difference, terrorism exists, witchcraft didn't. But to the people in America in the 1600s, witchcraft was as real as terrorism.

O'BRIEN: Well, let's talk about some high profile cases, because it seems like there is a ton of media attention about these cases and also a ton of public attention as well. And I think they go hand in hand.

For example, the Michael Jackson case. The judge has upheld a gag order. You've worked on cases I know where there has been a gag order and where there has not been a gag order.

DERSHOWITZ: Right.

O'BRIEN: Which do you think is preferable? And I don't mean as an attorney representing the client. I mean in the best interest of justice overall.

DERSHOWITZ: Sure. Oh, there's no question, gag orders make no sense. All they do is drive the discussion underground. Lawyers start leaking speculations rampant. The public has the right to know, and we should trust our legal system to be able to deal with public disclosures.

O'BRIEN: Why do you think there's much more of -- it feels to me like there is a much bigger appetite for these kinds of trials, maybe even starting with the O.J. Simpson trial 10 years ago. Why do you think that is? Is it just sort of there's more TV out there and more on?

DERSHOWITZ: It's more apparent than real. Every one of the cases I discuss in "America on Trial" was discovered extensively by the media. And the media was different in those days.

When Aaron Burr, the vice president of the United States, was put on trial, it was a media frenzy. When Abraham Lincoln's assassins were put on trial, every newspaper covered it. The Lindbergh kidnapping, it was a media circus.

O'BRIEN: So it's not worse today.

DERSHOWITZ: It's not worse today, it's just that, with 24-hour cable, we see it more intrusively. But I think it's a good thing.

O'BRIEN: I won't take any offense.

DERSHOWITZ: I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing because, after all, the legal system is ours. We own it. We should be able to observe it and watch it. So I'm in favor of televising trials, I'm in favor of the public having a say.

O'BRIEN: When you see a case like Kobe Bryant's trial -- that's heading toward trial -- do you think that that's a case that is historically significant?

DERSHOWITZ: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Really? That would be a case that would kind of make your book if you were doing this again in another hundred years?

DERSHOWITZ: And I will maybe in 10 years. Kobe will make it because it is a case about the cutting edge of rape law, rape shield, balancing the rights of the alleged victim with the rights of the alleged defendant.

It's a very important case, much more than many of the other cases. The other cases I think would make it I think would be Martha Stewart, rich woman totally messed up by her own lawyers. I mean, she hires what she thinks is the best lawyers and they...

O'BRIEN: And you wrote a pretty scathing op-ed on that.

DERSHOWITZ: Oh, yes. They behaved like Dr. Kevorkian, walking her to her legal death, instead of saving her.

O'BRIEN: O.J. Simpson's 10-year anniversary, many people -- there was a lot of criticism about that case. That it was just sort of overdone. Not even the specifics of the case itself, just that there was just too much. And I actually thought it was a fascinating look inside look at the justice system.

DERSHOWITZ: It was. And the only reason I include O.J. Simpson, it was not a great case in terms of the legal issues or the factual issues, but because it was so racially divisive and because it gave America their first look inside a high-profile case like this. It deserves inclusion in any list of great American trials.

O'BRIEN: Fascinating book. The book is called "America on Trial." Alan Dershowitz, nice to see you. Thanks for coming in to talk to us.

DERSHOWITZ: Thank you so much.

O'BRIEN: Bill?

HEMMER: Soledad, in a moment here, providing a place for kids who might be at risk for physical abuse at home. That is this week's 'Extra Effort' in a moment.

And the big green is looking to bring in a lot of it in the box office over the weekend. "90-Second Pop" today and a whole new panel of pundits in a moment after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Yes, it's a death trap and a suicide wrap every morning here on AMERICAN MORNING. Time for "90-Second Pop." It's my sincere pleasure to introduce a whole new panel of pundits. Josh Elliott back with us from SI, Sports Illustrated; Clarissa Cruz from Entertainment Weekly; and Joel Stein from TIME Magazine.

How are you guys doing, huh? It's a Friday. Not bad.

The Fox Network is going to do a whole new deal with their programming. No reruns, all new programming.

CLARISSA CRUZ, STAFF WRITER, ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Totally.

HEMMER: Do you like the strategy?

CRUZ: Well, they're touting it as this whole revolutionary new thing.

HEMMER: And is it?

CRUZ: Yes, I mean, in a way it is. Because even though introducing programs in summer isn't anything new, what they're doing is, instead of reruns of things like "The Simpsons" and "King of the Hill," they're going to have all new programming in June, like "The Simple Life II," which we're all excited about, and a sitcom starring (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is another...

HEMMER: And all that goes against conventional wisdom when it comes to programming. This is baptism by fire, right?

CRUZ: Totally, totally. But, you know, they have to compete with all of the cable networks and all of the different things on TV. So...

JOSH ELLIOT, SPORTS ILLUSTRATED: I would think that they're daring America to prove just reality mad we are. If you've looked, you have "The Simple Life II" coming out, you have "The Casino" coming out. I think what we've learned over the last year or two are that people are willing to make reality television a point of viewing even if it means coming in a little early...

HEMMER: And the other thing is it's cheap programming, too. I mean, you don't have to go into rehearsals and trials and figure out what kind of script and what kind of line works for...

(CROSSTALK)

ELLIOT: And who among us did not discover "90210" back in the summer of...

CRUZ: I mean, they do have scripted programming as well. So it's not going to...

HEMMER: Yes, they do.

Let's talk about the world of sports. Kelly White is a sprinter, and now apparently she is, I guess, a bit of a turncoat, too. She is saying that she confessed she used steroids and now she's willing to talk. The implications of this story could be huge.

ELLIOT: Right. Once again it's Balco. We've heard it throughout the year, basically connected to baseball players. But now it turns out that she had some connection with Balco, she has admitted using steroids. And she said in exchange for a much lesser ban, of two years, in her case, she's willing to sing.

HEMMER: But she's going to take all the titles she has won over the past four years, right...

ELLIOT: Yes.

HEMMER: ... and turn them back in and sacrifice them?

ELLIOT: Yes. Actually, she won the 100 and 200 last year's world championships, but this is all about Marion Jones. Now Marion Jones is back. Yesterday, wrote to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and said, look, I'd like to come in now and discuss my connection to Balco.

JOEL STEIN, TIME MAGAZINE: This is smart for Kelly White, because now she's famous, right?

ELLIOT: Absolutely. She's famous, and she can compete conceivably again.

STEIN: She could have won like five gold medals and we wouldn't know her.

HEMMER: She can't compete in Athens this summer...

ELLIOT: No.

STEIN: No.

HEMMER: ... which would have been a boom for her had she done well.

STEIN: Not as much of a boom as, you know, getting her name on TV like this.

HEMMER: Well, that's probably true as well. But I think -- why?

STEIN: Well, I mean, I don't want to see guys hit like 40 home runs again. I want to go back to the time when no one could break the four-minute mile.

ELLIOT: You know, it's an interesting point, because the U.S. says it's committed to sending a clean team to Athens. I hope they're also committed to sending a team that probably won't win very many medals.

HEMMER: Listen, ultimately, it depends on who she's willing to rat out, too. Let's talk about the movies. You were there last night.

ELLIOT: Yes, I'm the sucker. I'm the sucker. HEMMER: Did you like or no like?

ELLIOT: You know what? I liked. I liked. I have to admit, I didn't see "Shrek" One, but I was told it wouldn't be a problem, and it turns out it wasn't. It's smart.

HEMMER: Were you able to follow it?

ELLIOT: Yes. I know, shockingly enough.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: I bet you do. Does this knock out "Troy," by the way, this weekend do you think?

CRUZ: Oh, I'm sure.

ELLIOT: It's got to.

CRUZ: It made $11 million yesterday, which broke the record...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it would have been $10,999...

STEIN: Now how did they convince you to go? You're just a sucker.

ELLIOT: Well, they said that I would be lost in the discussion had I not, Joel.

STEIN: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: We've got to run. We're going to save it for later. Thanks. Have a great weekend, OK? Good to see all three of you.

Soledad?

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, a place of refuge for children who may be in danger at home. Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Our 'Extra Effort' series is a weekly tribute to those who go the extra mile to help others. This morning, we meet two Colorado women who set up a shelter to protect children from potentially abusive parents.

KPC Kids' Place takes in children so that stressed out and angry parents have a little time to cool down. And joining us this morning from Colorado Springs, Rita Wiley and Annette Blackhart. They're founders of KPC Kids' Place.

Ladies, good morning. Thanks for being with us. And Rita, let's begin with you. I know that KPC actually stands for Kevin Patrick Caleum. Who was he?

RITA WILEY, KPC KIDS' PLACE: He was a five-and-a-half-month-old baby boy who was shaken to death by the step grandmother when she was caring for him for the mother, who was a single parent.

O'BRIEN: Because she really couldn't deal with the stress of dealing with a young infant. It's not a shelter case you see exactly. What is it?

WILEY: It's a safe environment for children when parents cannot or should not be in charge of their kids, that they need a break or a time-out.

O'BRIEN: So then, Annette, you opened on May 1. How exactly does it work? I know you've had 37 intakes in the very short time you've been open, which is pretty impressive. How does it work?

ANNETTE BLACKHART, KPC KIDS' PLACE: Well, a parent starts out by calling us, and the intake starts over the phone. They tell us what's going on, why they think they need to place their child in a safe environment.

Then a time is set up, and that could be as soon as the parent can come to us. We then sit down with the parent and go through a lot of paper work. And then we take the child into the house, and our parent advocates then work with the parents to connect them to resources in our community that could alleviate whatever the crisis or the stressor is for the family.

O'BRIEN: I think certainly any parent -- forgive me for jumping in there -- but I think certainly any parent can understand the stress that any other parent could be under. I know you take kids as super young to up to six years old.

So do you provide counseling on site for the parents? What happens with the parents? How do you get them over their anger and their exhaustion and their frustration when dealing with their toddler?

BLACKHART: Well, we help them identify what their goals on. We don't dictate to them what their goals are. And maybe it's a referral that they need for having a new baby, or maybe it's a parent that's getting back into the work force.

It can be a lot of different situations. We work with women that are in domestic violence situations, and maybe they have just entered into the women's shelter and they need a time to sit down and think and sort out what kind of a plan they want to create for them. And then we help them identify their strengths.

O'BRIEN: Rita, may I ask you a question? I know the goal has been to keep the children up to 72 hours, giving the parents really a fairly long break. How long are you able to keep the kids for now, and how do you plan to make up that gap? WILEY: Well, right now, we're doing all of our staff coverage with volunteers, primarily, and also a few -- well, the staff, like Annette and I, are over there all of the time. Our board president has been there all of the time. We're open from 8:00 in the morning until 10:00 p.m. at night.

And we will make exceptions. If a parent needs all-night care, we will provide all-night care. But right now, because we open primarily with volunteers due to a lack of funding, it's been very difficult.

The economy has been flat, and foundations haven't been funding. And so getting start-up funding was just not doable for right now. But we decided we had to open the nursery because we couldn't see having another child die as a consequence of the parent not having a place to leave them.

O'BRIEN: Well, maybe folks will realize what a good cause this is. Rita Wiley and Annette Blackhart, the founders of the KPC Kids' Place, thanks for joining us this morning to talk about your program. Appreciate it.

WILEY: Thank you.

BLACKHART: Thanks, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Bill?

HEMMER: Next hour here on CNN, the president's Louisiana speech has become a bit of a family tradition. Daryn Kagan has that next hour. We're back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: To Jack back again. E-mails before we get out of here.

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.

Quickly, how worthwhile the 9/11 hearings have they been? They're due to wrap up a final report in July. Got a lot of answers from folks.

Jim in Boca Raton: "Hard to imagine of asking questions about what went wrong and what went right on September 11 could be harmful. In spite of the roadblocks the commission has encountered, it will probably come up with some very good recommendations. Then the question will be, will we act on them?"

Tom in Knoxville, Iowa: "If the intent of the hearings was to provide a forum for finger-pointing and blame-slinging, then I guess they succeeded. Other than that, I don't see how any of this helped.

And Hector in New Orleans, Louisiana, "Sure the 9/11 hearings have been wonderful. Who can forget Condi's mad dash for interviews on every network TV news show known to man to get the absolutely essential word out that she and her boss new absolutely nothing about anything?"

Oh, Hector. You're such a cynic.

Join us this weekend for "IN THE MONEY." Andy and I and Susan will be there. We're six weeks away from turning over control to the Iraqis. Well, we're not. The United States government is. We'll take a closer look at what it will take for the U.S. to succeed in that endeavor.

"IN THE MONEY" airs Saturday at 1:00, Sunday at 3:00. All Eastern Daylight Time. I hope you can join us for that.

HEMMER: Forty days and counting. Have a good weekend, all right? All right, hit me harder. Come on. It's your chance.

CAFFERTY: No.

HEMMER: Here's Daryn Kagan at the CNN Center.

Hey, Daryn.

O'BRIEN: I'll do it.

HEMMER: I know you will.

Hey, Daryn. How's it going?

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Everyone just get along. I'm sending you guys to your rooms. Everyone's going in time-out. You guys have a great time-out over the weekend, all right? Have a great weekend in New York City.

We'll get started. We're at CNN headquarters in Atlanta. I'm Daryn Kagan.