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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
U.S. Hands Power Over to Iraqis Two Days Early; U.S. Supreme Court Rules on Fate of Guantanamo Detainees
Aired June 28, 2004 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Sovereignty surprise. An historic handover two days ahead of schedule.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Iraqi people have their country back.
BLITZER: But can they keep it?
The challenges ahead. Fighting terror and governing Iraq. We'll look at the man in charge and the Americans sent to help him.
Missing Marine. Could he face the fate of other hostages?
TAREK NOSSEIR, HASSOUN FAMILY SPOKESMAN: We pray and plead for his safe release.
BLITZER: Enemy combatants. The war on terror and the rule of law. Stunning decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court, setbacks for the president.
ANNOUNCER: This is "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" for Monday, June 28, 2004.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Most Americans were sleeping and most Iraqis were unaware. But earlier today, well ahead of schedule, history was being made in Baghdad. Now a new chapter has begun. Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour reports from the Iraqi capital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Security and secrecy made this a big surprise. Partly to keep the terror off guard, the U.S. hand back sovereignty to Iraq two days earlier than planned.
At precisely 10:26 this morning, Baghdad time, Paul Bremer became the ex-U.S. administrator.
PAUL BREMER, EX-U.S. ADMINISTRATOR: We welcome Iraq's steps to take its rightful place of equality and honor among the free nations of the world. Sincerely, L. Paul Bremer, ex-administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: The Bremer presented the blue-bound document, the legal transfer of sovereignty to Iraq's new interim government.
Iraqi officials attending with the prime minister, Ayad Allawi and his deputy, the president, Ghazi Yawar, and the supreme court justice Madhat al-Mamoudi. For a momentous occasion, it was understated, taking place in a small room in the prime minister's new office.
AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER: This is an historical day. We (UNINTELLIGIBLE) transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people.
AMANPOUR: Bremer had signed the order in his own office earlier in the morning. As he said farewell to his staff on the way to the handover ceremony, he also carried a letter to Prime Minister Allawi from President George Bush formally requesting the diplomatic ties be restored between Iraq and the United States. They were broken in January 1991 just before the first Gulf War.
Bremer went from the ceremony to a helicopter which took him out of occupation headquarters, the Green Zone, that had been his office and home for the past 14 months. He then boarded a plane out of Iraq and out of this job.
As Bremer was in the air, the rest of the cabinet was sworn in. Some ministers told us they, too, knew nothing about this until the last minute.
Allawi set out his agenda with a wide range of promises on everything from services to the economy, democracy and especially security.
ALLAWI (through translator): Here I call on efforts of all people to defend the country. I call on the heroes of the past, all of the regions of Iraq and the sons of Iraq. And I call on their efforts to eradicate foreign terrorists who are killing our people and destroying our country.
AMANPOUR: He offered a pardon for any Iraqi insurgents and former Saddam loyalists who did not have blood on their hands. That in return for information and cooperation in fingering the terrorists.
While he has repeatedly said he would impose emergency security measures, that's expected to fall short of marshal law. Allawi has yet to detail his security plan. It could include curfews and a ban on public gatherings.
As for the people, in Baghdad they welcomed their new sovereignty and most yearn for a new strong man. "I want to tell the government may God make your work a success," says pensioner Hamid Abaz (ph). "Take care of us, and be strong." "Every Iraqi is happy with this day," says Amar (ph), a grocer. "We want to rest. It's been 13 or 14 months and we've got nothing. Wherever we go, there are explosions."
(on camera): A brand new Iraqi flag now flies over this Green Zone and this is sovereign Iraqi territory. But this country is also swept up in the terror of the insurgency. And so the mood can best be summed up as hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: CNN's Anderson Cooper is also in Baghdad covering the handover. He's joining us now live with a little bit more. Anderson, tell us, our viewers, what you're hear? What do Iraqis expect in the immediate days to come?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I think what they are looking for in the immediate days to come is a greater sense of security. And they want to see some sort of action on the part of their new government, on the part in particular of Prime Minister Allawi, what is he going to do to try to crack down on this insurgency which in the last several days seems to be escalating at least with the intensity of their attacks back on Thursday.
More than 100 Iraqis were killed in a series of attacks across the country. They want to see some sort of action.
The problem is, as you well know, Wolf, the Iraqi security services and particularly the Iraqi police are not really up to the job at this point. Badly trained, badly equipped, very, very low morale. That's something the U.S. is in particular focusing on. But that is not something that's going to change any time overnight or anytime even in the next several weeks.
So exactly what this new government can do to meet those desires on the part of the Iraqi people is an open question -- Wolf.
Anderson, there's lots of speculation that they moved it up by 48 hours because they feared Wednesday there would be a lot of terrorists attacks and they didn't want to take any chances. Is that what you're hearing there?
COOPER: I don't think they will come out and say that directly. I mean we had been told over the last several days that June 30 was the deadline by which this thing might happen. We anticipated it might even happen tomorrow on the 29th. So it's not a complete surprise that it didn't happen on the 30th.
And certainly security would be a major consideration of that. Prime Minister Allawi also said that, look, we wanted this thing moved up because we're ready for it. And in his words, every day counts.
There are also some who say, look, the U.S. didn't want to have a big celebration, a big sort of tradition-filled ceremony, handing over ceremony because they were concerned about the images that would be broadcasting to the world. Sort of a paternalistic image of the U.S. handing over something. They wanted it low key and that is certainly what they got. A very surprising day here in Baghdad.
BLITZER: Anderson Cooper, reporting live from Baghdad. Anderson, Thanks very much.
And to our viewers, this important programming note, Anderson will be anchoring his program, "ANDERSON COOPER 360," live from Baghdad. "The Impact on Iraq." That airs a little bit less than two hours from now, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 p.m. Pacific. "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
The handover in Baghdad happened as President Bush and his chief ally the British Prime Minister Tony Blair were sitting together at the NATO Summit in Istanbul, Turkey. They got the news with a note and a whisper. Our senior White House correspondent John King joining us now live from Turkey -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, both leaders met after the morning event here at the NATO Summit. Prime Minister Blair and President Bush comparing notes in an upbeat mood. Both of them, clearly their spirits lifted by the handover of sovereignty in Iraq. Both of them praising the new prime minister, Mr. Allawi.
Although both leaders also saying even as they called this a great day for the Iraqi people, they said there are many challenges ahead. Prime Minister Blair spoke of dangerous and difficult days. And both also said they do expect Prime Minister Allawi, as you've been discussing in the program, to adopt some tough new measures to try to improve security. Mr. Bush made clear he believes priority No. 1 should be going after terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: And so Prime Minister Allawi's the head of the sovereign government, may decide he's going to have to take tough measures to deal with a brutal, cold-blooded, killer. And our job is to help the Iraqis stand up forces that are able to deal with these thugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now this note from his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, is how the president received official word. He knew the transfer was coming when he arrived at the morning summit meetings. He was keeping that secret with just his senior staff. Prime Minister Blair knew.
But this note, "Mr. President, Iraq is sovereign. Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time. Condi." Mr. Bush then scribbled in the margin "Let freedom reign."
He paused for a moment and looked down at his watch as if to celebrate the moment with a moment of personal reflection. Then he turned to his right where Prime Minister Blair was seated, beside him on this morning, beside him of course from day one of the controversial debate over whether to go to war in Iraq. The president shaking Prime Minister Blair's hand, both of them nodding their heads, clearly pleased, Wolf.
They also received a bit of a diplomatic victory here at the NATO Summit. A commitment from NATO help train Iraqi security forces. But even as they celebrated the early handover of sovereignty and this new promise of help from NATO, it is far sort, of course, of what Mr. Bush had hoped for months ago when he thought perhaps NATO troops would go into post-war Iraq, ease the burden on the U.S. military.
Mr. Bush knows that will not happen; 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq for the foreseeable future -- Wolf.
BLITZER: John King in Istanbul. John, thanks very much.
Senator John Kerry found some time on the campaign trail today in Maryland to comment on the handover of Iraqi sovereignty. The Democratic candidate again issued a call for the Bush administration to get more international support in trying to help Iraq make the transition to democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe it is critical that the president get real support, not resolutions, not words, but real support of sufficient personnel, troops, and money, to assist in the training of security forces in order to be able to be able to guarantee a rapid, real transition. And most importantly in order to be able to provide adequate security on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: During his stop in Baltimore, Senator Kerry said, the world is now more tattered and volatile than it was when President Bush took office.
The Iraqi handover's only the first surprise of the day. The United States has now announced that, after 24 years, it has resumed formal diplomatic ties with Libya. Joining us now, CNN analyst Ken Pollack, he's with the Saban Center for Middle East Policy over at the Brookings Institution. Let's talk about Iraq, first, Ken. This whole transfer of policy going back to your days more than a dozen year ago at the CIA, at the National Security Council, give us some perspective, how big of a deal is this?
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: This is very important. It's important because for the Bush administration, they have focused on this transition as being the key to fighting the terrorists. They see the transfer of power as being something that would basically discredit all the insurgents moving on the government. I think there's real reason to doubt that, but nevertheless that is the key to their strategy. They're hoping that now that Iraq is sovereign, that the Iraqi people will no longer support the insurgency.
BLITZER: But some argue that this robust U.S. and coalition military presence, 130,000, 140,000, 160,000 troops, when you add them all up, in effect, makes this Iraqi government a puppet government of the U.S. military and that could hurt this transition.
POLLACK: Sure. It's clear, Iraq may be fully sovereign but they don't have full authority over their country. And you've got the United States presence in there that is huge as you pointed out. We're providing the bulk of the resources still for Iraq to move forward. It's clear that this is still going to rest on the shoulders of the United States. You heard Anderson Cooper make a very good point in his segment where he pointed out that what most Iraqis want in terms of basic security and basic services and you've been hearing this from Iraqis all along, the new Iraqi government just doesn't have the wherewithal to provide that, only the U.S. can.
BLITZER: What about Saddam Hussein? We're now hearing that they're going to split the baby if you will, the U.S. will retain physical control, security of Saddam Hussein but they're going to make some sort of show that the Iraqi government will get legal custody of him in the coming days.
POLLACK: This is one of these which does take me back to my own days in the White House. This is one of those tough issues. The Iraqis want sovereignty, they want control over Saddam Hussein. He is one of the worst war criminals of the last 50 years and certainly the worst in their history, their recent history. They want to show their people that they have control over Saddam because he's so important symbolically. If I were back at the White House I would be terrified that something would go wrong and Saddam would escape. And I think the compromise that they've worked out is actually a pretty good one.
BLITZER: I would be terrified that they would kill him and not even have a trial, somebody would just shoot him. I think they may be even more concerned about that than he might escape.
POLLACK: That's certainly got to be also on their mind. And obviously there's got to be a system of reinforcing checks and balances. I don't think that this Iraqi government wants him to die. You can always have a problem with a particular Iraqi guard who Saddam killed his father, killed his brother or raped his sister or his mother, whatever it may be, all of those things are possible. I think this Iraqi government very much wants him to be alive so they can bring him to trial.
BLITZER: Let's talk about Muammar Gadhafi, Libya. After two dozen years the United States today announced formal diplomatic relations with Libya re-established. Only a couple of weeks ago there were all sorts of reports that Libya supposedly was plotting to try to kill the Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
POLLACK: Yes, it's kind of hard to square this circle a little bit. First off, let's give the administration credit. This was an important step forward. It's a way of demonstrating to the world that if you actually do cooperate with the U.S. and the international community, there are real rewards, I think that's a very positive step. I think the point that you're making is a very good one. At the very least, we need to take those accusations with a few grains of salt. I think if there were any supposition of the case of the White House, if there was suspicion that there was real merit to these charges I can't imagine they would have gone forward with this.
BLITZER: The other argument though is because Libya's agreed to give up all of its nuclear capabilities, weapons of mass destructions, whatever, that is so much more important for the world and for the U.S. than maybe some sort of plot that obviously didn't go forward.
POLLACK: It is very important, and this point I make, it is important to give the administration some credit for recognizing this and being willing to act on it. By the same token, Saudi Arabia is such a critical ally and Crown Prince Abdullah is so important to Saudi Arabia making progress, I just can't imagine that if there was real concern that these threats were valid, that they'd go ahead with this.
BLITZER: Ken Pollack, explaining a lot of this good stuff to us, thanks very much.
POLLACK: Thank you.
BLITZER: And here's to our viewers, a chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this. "Will a sovereign Iraq be friendly toward the United States?" You can vote right now, go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.
Legal rights versus the war on terror. Should detainees held at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba have the right to challenge their detentions? A surprising decision from the United States Supreme Court.
Missing in Iraq. Concern over the fate of U.S. soldier Matt Maupin. We'll get details from the Pentagon.
Exit strategy. When should U.S. troops leave Iraq? Two former presidential advisers square off in what could be called the clash of the Titans. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The United States Supreme Court handed down two very important rulings today on the detention of accused terrorists. Our national correspondent Bob Franken standing by over at the Supreme Court with details -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, rarely do the rulings that these Supreme Court justices make as constitutional as they often are, rarely do they so involve the separation of powers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): The rulings rejected the administration's claim that the president had near absolute power in times of war over declared enemy combatants, the courts, little or no power. The justices by a 6-3 margin ruled in favor of Yaser Hamdi, a U.S. citizen but he was captured by U.S. allies in Afghanistan. And even with the president's sweeping wartime powers, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor insisted, "an unchecked system of detention carries the potential to become a means for oppression and abuse of others." And therefore, Hamdi has the right to challenge in court why he's being held.
FRANK DUNHAM, YASER HAMDI'S ATTORNEY: The king can't lock you up and forget about you, throw away the key. He's got bring you forward before a neutral magistrate.
FRANKEN: At the same time, the court upheld the president's power to detain terrorist suspects -- possibly indefinitely, possibly without charges.
DAVID RIVKIN, MILITARY LAW EXPERT: The plurality opinion of a Supreme Court has upheld the basic viability of a legal model that the administration has been using, namely the model of detaining, capturing enemy combatants.
FRANKEN: But the Justices ruled the courts even had jurisdiction beyond the boarders -- that the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base had a right to challenge their imprisonments, even though Guantanamo is technically part of Cuba.
Writing for the 6-3 majority, Justice John Paul Stevens pointed out, "the United States exercises complete jurisdiction and control over the Guantanamo Base."
THOMAS GOLDSTEIN, SUPREME COURT LEGAL ANALYST: There's clear repudiation of the government's absolute position that the courts have no role.
FRANKEN: The Court did not specify what form the Guantanamo detainee hearings would take. The justices effectively made no determination in the Jose Padilla matter, saying his lawyers had filed in the wrong court. Padilla is also locked away, designated as an enemy combatant. He, too, is a U.S. citizen. He'd been arrested on U.S. soil at Chicago's O'Hare Airport, accused of planning a dirty bomb attack.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: They will refile. But whatever those involved in the case do, they will know now that they have to answer to the courts -- Wolf?
BLITZER: Bob Franken at the Supreme Court for us, as usual. Bob, thanks very much.
More on today's important Supreme Court rulings later this hour. I'll speak live with Tom Wilner -- he's an attorney who's been representing some of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay -- and Victoria Toensing -- she's a former deputy attorney general who has helped prosecute several terror cases.
There are also new developments late today concerning U.S. Army Private Matt Maupin, captured in April by Iraqi insurgents. For that, let's go live to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Wolf. Well, Army officials today contacted the family of Matthew Maupin near Cincinnati to warn them about media interest in a videotape that may show a man being killed by insurgents in Iraq, all of this according to Pentagon sources.
Now, two senior officials tell CNN there is no way to tell who the victim is that apparently is being killed on this videotape, but Pentagon officials have remained very concerned about the fate of Matthew Maupin since he was taken by insurgents April 9 when his convoy was attacked near Baghdad. He was seen once, of course, on a videotape shortly after he was taken by insurgents, but there has been no word of him since.
And when this videotape -- word of this new videotape began to circulate today amongst the media, there was a lot of interest and the Army decided to go ahead, contact his family, and warn them that the media was going to start reporting about this videotape. But still, no way to tell for sure if it is Private 1st Class Matthew Maupin, the victim on the tape -- Wolf.
BLITZER: What a heart-wrenching wait this must be for that family. Barbara Starr, thanks very much for that.
There's also word that a U.S. Marine is missing in Iraq. A video that appeared on Al-Jazeera television purports to show Corporal Wassef Hassoun in custody. Although, Pentagon officials say he's been missing for more than a week, they can't confirm that he's been taken hostage. Officials say Hassoun speaks Arabic and has relatives in Lebanon, possibly even a wife.
There's also word of yet more violence happening in the Middle East. A Palestinian news agency says that Israeli helicopter gunship has fired three missiles into a building in Gaza City that houses the agency. So far, no reports of casualties.
A new day, a new era in Iraq. As the handover to sovereignty arrives, so does the man who will head the largest U.S. Embassy in the world. Up next, Ambassador John Negroponte and the new challenge his faces.
Plus -- he was once Saddam Hussein's arch enemy. Now, he's the most powerful man in Iraq. Hear how Iraq's Prime Minister Iyad Allawi became the new man in charge.
And later -- captured in Afghanistan, held at Guantanamo. See what daily life is like for U.S. enemy combatants.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From our studios in Washington, once again, Wolf Blitzer.
BLITZER: Welcome back. History has been made: the handover of Iraq is now complete. We'll look at challenges that still exist. First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.
United Nations inspectors got a first-hand look today at an Iranian site which the United States says was used to carry out secret nuclear weapons activities. The complex in Tehran is near a military installation. Satellite photographs show the buildings have been razed and much of the topsoil removed. Iran denies the complex was a nuclear site.
In Saudi Arabia, a senior member of al Qaeda has surrendered to authorities and accepted an offer of amnesty. That word today from sources in the Saudi kingdom. The man is said to be on a Saudi list of 26 most-wanted terror suspects. He's the most senior member of al Qaeda so far to turn himself in to Saudi authorities.
A stern warning today from the judge in the Scott Peterson murder trial in California. He threatened to enforce a gag order unless both sides stop making public comments about the case. The warning follows remarks by a Modesto police spokesman who told reporters Defense Attorney Mark Geragos was trying to spin facts about police reports.
With the departure of Coalition Administrator Paul Bremer, Ambassador John Negroponte becomes the top U.S. civilian official in Iraq. Our national security correspondent David Ensor's joining us now for a look at some of the challenges that Negroponte faces -- David?
DAVID ENSOR, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, they will be considerable. He's expected in Baghdad within the week. And he and the State Department are stressing that he will play a much different role than Paul Bremer did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): With Paul Bremer's departure, Prime Minister Iyad al Allawi became the most powerful man in Iraq. The new top American, Ambassador John Negroponte, may be a power behind the scenes, though he is playing down his role.
JOHN NEGROPONTE, AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: To offer support and assistance to the Iraqi people and government as Iraq reasserts its full sovereignty.
FRANK RICCIARDONE, U.S.-IRAQ TRANSITION: No U.S. ambassador goes out expecting to run a foreign country, nor even if that were in his mind, the Iraqis wouldn't let him.
ENSOR: Workers have been rushing to transform one of Saddam's former palaces into the new U.S. Embassy headquarters. From this building, Negroponte will lead the largest embassy in the world, about 1,000 Americans and 700 Iraqis. His deputy says security will be a constant concern.
JAMES JEFFREY, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF MISSION: We receive incoming rocket and mortar fire in this vicinity quite often. But our goal is to ensure that we are not overrun, that we do not get significant hostile fire. And so far, we've been lucky. ENSOR: In a symbol of sovereignty, Iraqi's new government will soon take over legal custody of Saddam Hussein. But American officials say they will still keep their hands on him.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I would expect that legal custody would be handed over shortly, but physical custody would remain in our hands for the foreseeable future.
ENSOR: American troops will still take orders from American commanders. But a major question is, what happens with the next Fallujah, the next major military challenge? It is not clear.
REUEL MARC GERECHT, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: If you have people attacking the Americans, the Americans may want to respond with a good deal of force. There may be individuals in the government who don't want them to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: In theory, American commanders can do what they want. But if Prime Minister Allawi or his government objects, that could cause commanders to think twice about taking on a fight. Finding the right balance now between security and sovereignty for Iraqis may not be easy -- Wolf.
BLITZER: David Ensor with that report -- thanks, David, very much.
The man heading the new Iraqi sovereign government, the interim prime minister, Iyad Allawi, describes his country's current situation as a temporary setback. And he's predicting that Iraqis -- and I'm quoting now -- "will rise up like mountains."
CNN's Zain Verjee has more on the man in charge of the new Iraq -- Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the key question for the Iraqi prime minister is this: How is he going to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis who think he's an American puppet and at the same time crack down on an insurgency that appears more ruthless and more organized? The answer may lie in what kind of man Iyad Allawi is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: As recognized in U.N. Security Council Resolution...
VERJEE (voice-over): Taking control of a country in the midst of an insurgency, many will tell you Prime Minister Iyad Allawi is in quite an unenviable position.
CHARLIE CLOVER, "FINANCIAL TIMES": He has to convince the armed groups in Iraq that their future lies not in armed struggle against his interim government, but in joining the political process and in supporting his government.
VERJEE: Those who know him say he's a convincing man with good ideas. He's also someone they say who's willing to get tough.
MAMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: He will go also with the force, brute force, that the Americans -- Americans like. He would bring sort old Iraq back in some sense in terms of the use of force.
VERJEE: Some analysts say the 58-year-old physician was selected to be prime minister only because he had the fewest enemies. His list of friends, though, may be unsettling to many Iraqis. He makes no apologies for his ties to the CIA while in exile.
IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER-DESIGNATE: We don't being ashamed of being (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and having been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to liberate Iraq from the evil forces of Saddam.
VERJEE: Allawi was once a Baath Party operative, for reasons unclear, he fell out of favor with Saddam. He set up the Iraqi National Accord while in exile, which drew former Baathists and Iraqi military officials.
In 1978, he was almost killed with an ax in an assassination ordered by Saddam and almost two decades launched a failed and bloody coup to oust the dictator from power. Though he has no political base, Allawi comes from a prominent Shia family and is supported by the powerful Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
FANDY: It's an amazing advantage for him. Shia are the majority of Iraq, not only majority, the majority with the resources. I mean, most of the oil of Iraq is in Shia land, as well as in Kurdish land.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Wolf, Mr. Allawi is walking a political tightrope, analysts say. He needs the Americans to succeed, but he also needs to distance himself from them if he is to survive. And he navigates could really be the difference between success and failure -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Zain, a lot of analysts also suggesting Allawi is effectively being given mission impossible. What are you hearing?
VERJEE: Well, yes, essentially, they are saying that. But what they're saying is, Mr. Allawi is a very pragmatic man and that it's essential for him to distance himself from the Americans because in that way, the Iraqis will look at him as much more legitimate.
They also say there's absolutely no point for the Americans to control Allawi by remote control, if you will, in some dark corner in the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. And give him a little breathing space, they say. They also add that Mr. Allawi will use ruthless force if he has to. He's not going to talk broadly about Zarqawi groups or terrorists.
He's going to talk specifics, specific people, specific neighborhoods and specific groups. And he's going to use Iraqi forces to do the dirty work in that instance. And just one more thing, Wolf. They also add, it's not mission impossible, because if he can do it by being forceful on the one hand, he uses another pronged strategy of being a lot more inclusive and allowing legitimate political parties to come under one umbrella, he could succeed and lead to national reconciliation -- Wolf.
BLITZER: CNN's Zain Verjee reporting for us -- Zain, thanks very much.
The Guantanamo factor, the United States still holding hundreds of enemy combatants. We'll revisit the base in light of today's historic United States Supreme Court ruling.
And later, the clash of the titans. Two elder statesmen, two very different views on American forces in Iraq. We'll get to that.
First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Death from the sky. Israeli emergency officials say, a Palestinian-made custom Kassam rocket fired from Gaza killed two people when it landed near a kindergarten in a nearby Israeli town. One of the victims was 3 years old. They are the first known deaths caused by the crude homemade Kassam rockets.
Push for peace. The foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met for six hours today, following a similar meeting yesterday. The nuclear rivals reached agreements on missile testing notification, opening consulates and continuing efforts to end the five-decade-old dispute over the control of Kashmir.
Bathtub battle; 30 teams took part in the 12th annual International Bathtub Race in Leipzig, Germany. Team Liechtenstein took that prize. It also was awarded best design.
And that's our look around the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
As our Bob Franken reported earlier, history was made at the U.S. Supreme Court today, when it ruled that detainees at the United States Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have the right to challenge their detentions in U.S. courts.
CNN's Brian Todd takes a look at detainees and the facility where they're being held.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly 600 men, officially called enemy combatants, captured from the battlefields of Afghanistan in the war on terror, the first wave arrived at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base on January 11, 2002. In February of this year, a top Pentagon allowed to how lethal and well-connected some of these men were.
PAUL BUTLER, DEPUTY ASST. DEFENSE SECRETARY FOR SPECIAL OPERATIONS: There's an individual who served as a bodyguard for Osama bin Laden and escorted him to Tora Bora, Afghanistan, following the fall of Jalalabad.
TODD: We contacted an official at Guantanamo to see if that person is still there. He wouldn't tell us, but he did say 146 detainees have been released from Guantanamo, 12 of them to continued detention in their home countries, 134 released outright.
According to the official, of those still there, one section, Camp Delta, houses two types. The more dangerous live in single cells, separated by mesh wiring. The more cooperative get to live in open rooms, several beds to a room, and get to play sports on occasion.
All detainees have small arrows painted on the floors of their quarters pointing toward Mecca. There is also Camp Echo, housing less than a dozen detainees who are going before military commissions. These men have, according to a military official at Guantanamo, already been able to meet with attorneys. U.S. officials have at various times hailed the intelligence they've gotten from inside the barbed wire.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: They have provided information on al Qaeda front companies and on bank accounts, on surface-to-air missiles, improvised explosive devices and tactics that are used by terrorist elements.
TODD (on camera): but one senior defense official tells CNN, many detainees have said nothing or given false information. Those considered the top-level Al Qaeda figures in U.S. custody, like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah, are held by the CIA at separate, undisclosed locations.
(voice-over): As for this location, these detainees are a metaphor for a place that's always been in limbo. Treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, says the Pentagon, but not considered POWs, they inhabit a section of land that's isolated, but strategically vital
RETIRED GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN, U.S. ARMY: I think it's significant with our presence in this hemisphere and particularly in Latin America and to a degree next to a communist regime in Cuba.
TODD: Captured by U.S. forces during the Spanish-American War in 1898, the property at Guantanamo has been leased for more than a century. The Cuban government still gets $340 a month from the U.S. Navy. It's been a fortress since the U.S. cut off diplomatic relations following the rise of Fidel Castro and has been used to house large waves of Haitian and Cuban refugees.
Now these men, seemingly with new legal rights, may still not leave this island within an island any time soon.
Brian Todd, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Today's Supreme Court rulings on detainee rights raise a number of issues.
Joining us now to discuss those issues, two guests. Tom Wilner is an attorney for some of those Guantanamo detainees. And Victoria Toensing is a former Justice Department official, a prosecutor over there.
Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Tom, you're the lawyer now for some of these detainees. What do you do now?
THOMAS WILNER, ATTORNEY FOR GUANTANAMO BAY DETAINEES: Well, what the court said today is, they rejected the government's argument that the courts have no authority over Guantanamo. They said the courts have authority. We intend to go into court soon and exercise that authority, ask the United States to enforce the laws.
BLITZER: Which court are you going into?
WILNER: We're going to go into the district court of the District of Columbia, which has primary jurisdiction over the case.
BLITZER: And what are you going to say?
WILNER: We're going to ask them to really enforce the law. Geneva Conventions are being violated.
First, we're going to ask for two things mainly. We want immediately a report on the health and status of these people. Have they been treated humanely in the past and are they being now? And then we're going to ask for hearings that are required for the Geneva Conventions and our military regulations, just to see whether there's a basis to have them there. They have never had a hearing.
Let me just say, tomorrow will be the 900th day that these people have been held at Guantanamo. They have been held without charge and without any trial and without even a hearing. We want the hearings.
BLITZER: Vicky, what do you say? Major setback for the Justice Department today?
VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, I think it's a major problem for the judiciary, because it's the judiciary that's going to have to deal with all of these various cases. And the case raises more questions than it answers. The only thing these six justices who I dare say have never been a trial judge, all they say is, hey, the respondent gets to something. The government gets to say something. The petitioner gets to say.
And then we don't know what's going to happen after that and we don't need to settle that right now.
BLITZER: Well, are they saying that there's no difference between being held at Guantanamo Bay, which is Cuba but under U.S. control, as opposed to being held in the continental United States?
TOENSING: That's exactly how I read the case. It makes no difference.
And, in fact, Judge Scalia says that in the dissent. Here, the government kept them at Guantanamo in a special kind of status.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Well, they kept them there because they assumed they -- the courts would have no jurisdiction over them, but the Supreme Court says that assumption was wrong.
TOENSING: The Supreme Court says that, but then they don't say the things that I think if I were a federal judge, a trial judge, I would want to know, like, what is the standard of review?
See, habeas -- and that's what this case is all about -- when you go into a habeas hearing, it's usually for a criminal case after a conviction and was there a constitutional deprivation and that? So minor things get left out.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: All right, let's let Tom respond to that.
Go ahead, Tom.
WILNER: Well, let me say this is a significant victory today, not only for the detainees, but for America, I think. What the court held today is that government officials are not beyond the law, even in times of war.
They can't escape the law and review by the courts by taking people offshore. Let me disagree with Vicky. Traditionally, habeas, a common law, is not to challenge something after you're convicted. It's to challenge a detention by the government, arbitrary detention by the government. Our founders really believed that government is not infallible and that government officials must be subject to judicial review.
BLITZER: Is it your understanding, Tom, that these detainees, enemy combatants, now have a right to an attorney?
TOENSING: That's going to be open to the courts.
Let me just say, though -- and it's a critical thing, Wolf -- these are suspected enemy combatants. It's now out in the public that more than 50 percent of these people were probably picked up by mistake for bounties. The administration recently admitted that at most 50 of the people there have information and are dangerous. You have got 600 people there. (CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: About of whom 100 have already been released.
Go ahead, Vicky.
TOENSING: Well, I agree with Tom that the old way of the habeas, the initial theory of habeas was for releasing the body. But now what it's really become for the judges who are on the bench is in a criminal context.
So I dare say how do we work this out for winning the war if all of a sudden -- and I'm sure Tom's going to go in there and say I want five witnesses to tell me who else was present when you were stopped on the battlefield.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: I'd do it, too, Wolf.
BLITZER: If you were representing those enemy combatants, you'd be saying the same thing.
TOENSING: Of course I would. I wanted to give Tom credit.
But he would come and in and say, I want all the witnesses that were there. We're going to take people off the battlefield to come back here and be witnesses? I think Tom and I do agree -- and I have said this throughout -- that I thought that the Defense Department should have gotten off its rear end and gotten some kind of process going down there. And if that had happened, we wouldn't have what I think today is a bad Supreme Court decision.
BLITZER: Practically speaking, though, when all is said and done, the Supreme Court didn't decide whether or not there's guilt or innocence. They said the government can hold them, but you just have to make sure the courts have some jurisdiction.
WILNER: Well, really, the government never allowed us to get to argue the facts. They just said the courts have no authority there.
You know, let me tell you, if people are enemy combatants and they're dangerous, they should be held. What the victory today is about is the rule of law, that people are entitled to a process. These people have been held 900 days with no process whatsoever.
BLITZER: What do you make of the Yaser Hamdi decision today, which is also a significant decision? Born in the United States, only a few months when his parents took him from Louisiana to Saudi Arabia, captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan, held as an enemy combatant in the United States, but now the Supreme Court says, you know what? He, too, has some judicial rights.
TOENSING: He does have some judicial rights, says the Supreme Court. And I'm trying to square that case with the Guantanamo case, because, basically, Sandra Day O'Connor in that case said, well, maybe a military commission is OK. But I didn't see maybe a military commission is OK down in Cuba.
So it would be a strange thing if these noncitizens are entitled to be in our federal courts, but Hamdi, who is a U.S. citizen, is not.
BLITZER: You get the last word, Tom.
WILNER: Maybe a military commission is OK, but some commission must be there. There must be some rule of law. These people need to have the right to go to somebody to see if they are there by mistake, to prove their innocence.
TOENSING: On that, we agree. On that, we agree.
BLITZER: All right, history being made today at the United States Supreme Court, lots of unanswered questions, though. I think we all agree on that as well.
WILNER: Thank you.
BLITZER: More than 100,000 U.S. troops still in Iraq, 135,000, or 140,000, to be precise. How long should they stay, very strong and very different opinions from two elder statesmen, the clash of the titans, Henry Kissinger and Zbigniew Brzezinski. They go head to head and it gets personal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: There's a developing story happening in Gaza right now.
CNN's John Vause is there.
John, first of all, tell our viewers where you are and what's going on.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, right now, I'm standing on the roof of what we know as the Ramattan Studios building. It's a tall building in Gaza City. It houses not just Arab media, as well as Palestinian media, but also international media outlets like CNN, like the BBC, media outlets from Germany.
And within the last hour or so, last 30 minutes or so, three missiles hit this building. Three Israeli missiles hit this building on the third floor, injuring two journalists from the Ramattan Studios, a privately run Palestinian production facility. They are now being treated in hospital. There is chaos on the streets. There is debris. There is traffic jams, as you can imagine.
We've been waiting for some kind of response from Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister. He went to the security cabinet earlier today seeking permission for some kind of military response after missiles were fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel earlier today, killing two Israelis, among them a small boy.
We had been waiting for this military response that's happened. There's also been another strike on a Gaza refugee camp of what Israel calls a bomb-making workshop -- Wolf. BLITZER: CNN's John Vause, breaking news, reporting from Gaza for us.
John, please be careful over there. Thank you very much.
In the international -- in fact, in the American international policy establishment, it was what many people are regarding now as a clash of the titans, two former U.S. presidential advisers strongly disagreeing on Iraq, with bitter comparisons of the Vietnam War being hurled.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): With the transfer of power in Iraq now a done deal, the question arises: When should U.S. troops pull out?
ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think the longer we stay, the greater the difficulties of transition.
BLITZER: Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, says, set a hard date now and then prepare to leave.
BRZEZINSKI: So I would say sometime next year, sometime next year, maybe as early as April, which will have been two years since the occupation, maybe towards the end of the year.
BLITZER: Brzezinski says the continued U.S. military presence in Iraq merely endangers the overall situation, as U.S. forces and their allies in Iraq and the region become a lightning rod for terror attacks.
BRZEZINSKI: What we have to recognize and face is the fact that our involvement in Iraq is becoming now a catalyst for unrest throughout the Middle East. And it's destabilizing Saudi Arabia. It's galvanizing Arab passions against the United States.
BLITZER: But Henry Kissinger, who served as secretary of state under Presidents Nixon and Ford, says setting such a flat exit date would be a disaster, a position also taken by President Bush.
HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Dr. Brzezinski and I have been on programs for 30 years, but I've never disagreed with him as much. I think such a complete collapse of the American position would have disastrous consequences for us on a global basis. It is a phony argument to say we either stay indefinitely or we get out next April.
BLITZER: Brzezinski shot back, insisting Kissinger, while secretary of state, used to make the very same argument during an earlier U.S. military engagement abroad, one that ended in failure.
BRZEZINSKI: So Henry said more than that. My good old friend said it was a phony argument. And I won't return the compliment by suggesting that his argument is very reminiscent of what he used to say of the Vietnamese War, when he was arguing that we should stay until we see light at the end of the tunnel.
KISSINGER: I never used the argument, a light at the end of the tunnel. I said, indeed, during the Vietnam War that we could not simply abandon people to which four American administration of both parties had pledged support.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: International policy experts, both in and out of the U.S. government, tell me the clash between these two elder statesmen over an exit strategy in Iraq may actually signal the start of a broader debate among the American public at large.
The results of our Web question of the day, that's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our Web question of the day; 48 percent of you say yes. Look at this: 52 percent say no. Relatively evenly divided, though not a scientific poll.
A reminder, we're on twice a day, noon Eastern, as well as 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 28, 2004 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Sovereignty surprise. An historic handover two days ahead of schedule.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Iraqi people have their country back.
BLITZER: But can they keep it?
The challenges ahead. Fighting terror and governing Iraq. We'll look at the man in charge and the Americans sent to help him.
Missing Marine. Could he face the fate of other hostages?
TAREK NOSSEIR, HASSOUN FAMILY SPOKESMAN: We pray and plead for his safe release.
BLITZER: Enemy combatants. The war on terror and the rule of law. Stunning decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court, setbacks for the president.
ANNOUNCER: This is "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" for Monday, June 28, 2004.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Most Americans were sleeping and most Iraqis were unaware. But earlier today, well ahead of schedule, history was being made in Baghdad. Now a new chapter has begun. Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour reports from the Iraqi capital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Security and secrecy made this a big surprise. Partly to keep the terror off guard, the U.S. hand back sovereignty to Iraq two days earlier than planned.
At precisely 10:26 this morning, Baghdad time, Paul Bremer became the ex-U.S. administrator.
PAUL BREMER, EX-U.S. ADMINISTRATOR: We welcome Iraq's steps to take its rightful place of equality and honor among the free nations of the world. Sincerely, L. Paul Bremer, ex-administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority.
(LAUGHTER)
AMANPOUR: The Bremer presented the blue-bound document, the legal transfer of sovereignty to Iraq's new interim government.
Iraqi officials attending with the prime minister, Ayad Allawi and his deputy, the president, Ghazi Yawar, and the supreme court justice Madhat al-Mamoudi. For a momentous occasion, it was understated, taking place in a small room in the prime minister's new office.
AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER: This is an historical day. We (UNINTELLIGIBLE) transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqi government and the Iraqi people.
AMANPOUR: Bremer had signed the order in his own office earlier in the morning. As he said farewell to his staff on the way to the handover ceremony, he also carried a letter to Prime Minister Allawi from President George Bush formally requesting the diplomatic ties be restored between Iraq and the United States. They were broken in January 1991 just before the first Gulf War.
Bremer went from the ceremony to a helicopter which took him out of occupation headquarters, the Green Zone, that had been his office and home for the past 14 months. He then boarded a plane out of Iraq and out of this job.
As Bremer was in the air, the rest of the cabinet was sworn in. Some ministers told us they, too, knew nothing about this until the last minute.
Allawi set out his agenda with a wide range of promises on everything from services to the economy, democracy and especially security.
ALLAWI (through translator): Here I call on efforts of all people to defend the country. I call on the heroes of the past, all of the regions of Iraq and the sons of Iraq. And I call on their efforts to eradicate foreign terrorists who are killing our people and destroying our country.
AMANPOUR: He offered a pardon for any Iraqi insurgents and former Saddam loyalists who did not have blood on their hands. That in return for information and cooperation in fingering the terrorists.
While he has repeatedly said he would impose emergency security measures, that's expected to fall short of marshal law. Allawi has yet to detail his security plan. It could include curfews and a ban on public gatherings.
As for the people, in Baghdad they welcomed their new sovereignty and most yearn for a new strong man. "I want to tell the government may God make your work a success," says pensioner Hamid Abaz (ph). "Take care of us, and be strong." "Every Iraqi is happy with this day," says Amar (ph), a grocer. "We want to rest. It's been 13 or 14 months and we've got nothing. Wherever we go, there are explosions."
(on camera): A brand new Iraqi flag now flies over this Green Zone and this is sovereign Iraqi territory. But this country is also swept up in the terror of the insurgency. And so the mood can best be summed up as hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: CNN's Anderson Cooper is also in Baghdad covering the handover. He's joining us now live with a little bit more. Anderson, tell us, our viewers, what you're hear? What do Iraqis expect in the immediate days to come?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I think what they are looking for in the immediate days to come is a greater sense of security. And they want to see some sort of action on the part of their new government, on the part in particular of Prime Minister Allawi, what is he going to do to try to crack down on this insurgency which in the last several days seems to be escalating at least with the intensity of their attacks back on Thursday.
More than 100 Iraqis were killed in a series of attacks across the country. They want to see some sort of action.
The problem is, as you well know, Wolf, the Iraqi security services and particularly the Iraqi police are not really up to the job at this point. Badly trained, badly equipped, very, very low morale. That's something the U.S. is in particular focusing on. But that is not something that's going to change any time overnight or anytime even in the next several weeks.
So exactly what this new government can do to meet those desires on the part of the Iraqi people is an open question -- Wolf.
Anderson, there's lots of speculation that they moved it up by 48 hours because they feared Wednesday there would be a lot of terrorists attacks and they didn't want to take any chances. Is that what you're hearing there?
COOPER: I don't think they will come out and say that directly. I mean we had been told over the last several days that June 30 was the deadline by which this thing might happen. We anticipated it might even happen tomorrow on the 29th. So it's not a complete surprise that it didn't happen on the 30th.
And certainly security would be a major consideration of that. Prime Minister Allawi also said that, look, we wanted this thing moved up because we're ready for it. And in his words, every day counts.
There are also some who say, look, the U.S. didn't want to have a big celebration, a big sort of tradition-filled ceremony, handing over ceremony because they were concerned about the images that would be broadcasting to the world. Sort of a paternalistic image of the U.S. handing over something. They wanted it low key and that is certainly what they got. A very surprising day here in Baghdad.
BLITZER: Anderson Cooper, reporting live from Baghdad. Anderson, Thanks very much.
And to our viewers, this important programming note, Anderson will be anchoring his program, "ANDERSON COOPER 360," live from Baghdad. "The Impact on Iraq." That airs a little bit less than two hours from now, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 p.m. Pacific. "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
The handover in Baghdad happened as President Bush and his chief ally the British Prime Minister Tony Blair were sitting together at the NATO Summit in Istanbul, Turkey. They got the news with a note and a whisper. Our senior White House correspondent John King joining us now live from Turkey -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, both leaders met after the morning event here at the NATO Summit. Prime Minister Blair and President Bush comparing notes in an upbeat mood. Both of them, clearly their spirits lifted by the handover of sovereignty in Iraq. Both of them praising the new prime minister, Mr. Allawi.
Although both leaders also saying even as they called this a great day for the Iraqi people, they said there are many challenges ahead. Prime Minister Blair spoke of dangerous and difficult days. And both also said they do expect Prime Minister Allawi, as you've been discussing in the program, to adopt some tough new measures to try to improve security. Mr. Bush made clear he believes priority No. 1 should be going after terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: And so Prime Minister Allawi's the head of the sovereign government, may decide he's going to have to take tough measures to deal with a brutal, cold-blooded, killer. And our job is to help the Iraqis stand up forces that are able to deal with these thugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now this note from his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, is how the president received official word. He knew the transfer was coming when he arrived at the morning summit meetings. He was keeping that secret with just his senior staff. Prime Minister Blair knew.
But this note, "Mr. President, Iraq is sovereign. Letter was passed from Bremer at 10:26 a.m. Iraq time. Condi." Mr. Bush then scribbled in the margin "Let freedom reign."
He paused for a moment and looked down at his watch as if to celebrate the moment with a moment of personal reflection. Then he turned to his right where Prime Minister Blair was seated, beside him on this morning, beside him of course from day one of the controversial debate over whether to go to war in Iraq. The president shaking Prime Minister Blair's hand, both of them nodding their heads, clearly pleased, Wolf.
They also received a bit of a diplomatic victory here at the NATO Summit. A commitment from NATO help train Iraqi security forces. But even as they celebrated the early handover of sovereignty and this new promise of help from NATO, it is far sort, of course, of what Mr. Bush had hoped for months ago when he thought perhaps NATO troops would go into post-war Iraq, ease the burden on the U.S. military.
Mr. Bush knows that will not happen; 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq for the foreseeable future -- Wolf.
BLITZER: John King in Istanbul. John, thanks very much.
Senator John Kerry found some time on the campaign trail today in Maryland to comment on the handover of Iraqi sovereignty. The Democratic candidate again issued a call for the Bush administration to get more international support in trying to help Iraq make the transition to democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe it is critical that the president get real support, not resolutions, not words, but real support of sufficient personnel, troops, and money, to assist in the training of security forces in order to be able to be able to guarantee a rapid, real transition. And most importantly in order to be able to provide adequate security on the ground.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: During his stop in Baltimore, Senator Kerry said, the world is now more tattered and volatile than it was when President Bush took office.
The Iraqi handover's only the first surprise of the day. The United States has now announced that, after 24 years, it has resumed formal diplomatic ties with Libya. Joining us now, CNN analyst Ken Pollack, he's with the Saban Center for Middle East Policy over at the Brookings Institution. Let's talk about Iraq, first, Ken. This whole transfer of policy going back to your days more than a dozen year ago at the CIA, at the National Security Council, give us some perspective, how big of a deal is this?
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: This is very important. It's important because for the Bush administration, they have focused on this transition as being the key to fighting the terrorists. They see the transfer of power as being something that would basically discredit all the insurgents moving on the government. I think there's real reason to doubt that, but nevertheless that is the key to their strategy. They're hoping that now that Iraq is sovereign, that the Iraqi people will no longer support the insurgency.
BLITZER: But some argue that this robust U.S. and coalition military presence, 130,000, 140,000, 160,000 troops, when you add them all up, in effect, makes this Iraqi government a puppet government of the U.S. military and that could hurt this transition.
POLLACK: Sure. It's clear, Iraq may be fully sovereign but they don't have full authority over their country. And you've got the United States presence in there that is huge as you pointed out. We're providing the bulk of the resources still for Iraq to move forward. It's clear that this is still going to rest on the shoulders of the United States. You heard Anderson Cooper make a very good point in his segment where he pointed out that what most Iraqis want in terms of basic security and basic services and you've been hearing this from Iraqis all along, the new Iraqi government just doesn't have the wherewithal to provide that, only the U.S. can.
BLITZER: What about Saddam Hussein? We're now hearing that they're going to split the baby if you will, the U.S. will retain physical control, security of Saddam Hussein but they're going to make some sort of show that the Iraqi government will get legal custody of him in the coming days.
POLLACK: This is one of these which does take me back to my own days in the White House. This is one of those tough issues. The Iraqis want sovereignty, they want control over Saddam Hussein. He is one of the worst war criminals of the last 50 years and certainly the worst in their history, their recent history. They want to show their people that they have control over Saddam because he's so important symbolically. If I were back at the White House I would be terrified that something would go wrong and Saddam would escape. And I think the compromise that they've worked out is actually a pretty good one.
BLITZER: I would be terrified that they would kill him and not even have a trial, somebody would just shoot him. I think they may be even more concerned about that than he might escape.
POLLACK: That's certainly got to be also on their mind. And obviously there's got to be a system of reinforcing checks and balances. I don't think that this Iraqi government wants him to die. You can always have a problem with a particular Iraqi guard who Saddam killed his father, killed his brother or raped his sister or his mother, whatever it may be, all of those things are possible. I think this Iraqi government very much wants him to be alive so they can bring him to trial.
BLITZER: Let's talk about Muammar Gadhafi, Libya. After two dozen years the United States today announced formal diplomatic relations with Libya re-established. Only a couple of weeks ago there were all sorts of reports that Libya supposedly was plotting to try to kill the Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
POLLACK: Yes, it's kind of hard to square this circle a little bit. First off, let's give the administration credit. This was an important step forward. It's a way of demonstrating to the world that if you actually do cooperate with the U.S. and the international community, there are real rewards, I think that's a very positive step. I think the point that you're making is a very good one. At the very least, we need to take those accusations with a few grains of salt. I think if there were any supposition of the case of the White House, if there was suspicion that there was real merit to these charges I can't imagine they would have gone forward with this.
BLITZER: The other argument though is because Libya's agreed to give up all of its nuclear capabilities, weapons of mass destructions, whatever, that is so much more important for the world and for the U.S. than maybe some sort of plot that obviously didn't go forward.
POLLACK: It is very important, and this point I make, it is important to give the administration some credit for recognizing this and being willing to act on it. By the same token, Saudi Arabia is such a critical ally and Crown Prince Abdullah is so important to Saudi Arabia making progress, I just can't imagine that if there was real concern that these threats were valid, that they'd go ahead with this.
BLITZER: Ken Pollack, explaining a lot of this good stuff to us, thanks very much.
POLLACK: Thank you.
BLITZER: And here's to our viewers, a chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this. "Will a sovereign Iraq be friendly toward the United States?" You can vote right now, go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.
Legal rights versus the war on terror. Should detainees held at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba have the right to challenge their detentions? A surprising decision from the United States Supreme Court.
Missing in Iraq. Concern over the fate of U.S. soldier Matt Maupin. We'll get details from the Pentagon.
Exit strategy. When should U.S. troops leave Iraq? Two former presidential advisers square off in what could be called the clash of the Titans. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The United States Supreme Court handed down two very important rulings today on the detention of accused terrorists. Our national correspondent Bob Franken standing by over at the Supreme Court with details -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, rarely do the rulings that these Supreme Court justices make as constitutional as they often are, rarely do they so involve the separation of powers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): The rulings rejected the administration's claim that the president had near absolute power in times of war over declared enemy combatants, the courts, little or no power. The justices by a 6-3 margin ruled in favor of Yaser Hamdi, a U.S. citizen but he was captured by U.S. allies in Afghanistan. And even with the president's sweeping wartime powers, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor insisted, "an unchecked system of detention carries the potential to become a means for oppression and abuse of others." And therefore, Hamdi has the right to challenge in court why he's being held.
FRANK DUNHAM, YASER HAMDI'S ATTORNEY: The king can't lock you up and forget about you, throw away the key. He's got bring you forward before a neutral magistrate.
FRANKEN: At the same time, the court upheld the president's power to detain terrorist suspects -- possibly indefinitely, possibly without charges.
DAVID RIVKIN, MILITARY LAW EXPERT: The plurality opinion of a Supreme Court has upheld the basic viability of a legal model that the administration has been using, namely the model of detaining, capturing enemy combatants.
FRANKEN: But the Justices ruled the courts even had jurisdiction beyond the boarders -- that the detainees held at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base had a right to challenge their imprisonments, even though Guantanamo is technically part of Cuba.
Writing for the 6-3 majority, Justice John Paul Stevens pointed out, "the United States exercises complete jurisdiction and control over the Guantanamo Base."
THOMAS GOLDSTEIN, SUPREME COURT LEGAL ANALYST: There's clear repudiation of the government's absolute position that the courts have no role.
FRANKEN: The Court did not specify what form the Guantanamo detainee hearings would take. The justices effectively made no determination in the Jose Padilla matter, saying his lawyers had filed in the wrong court. Padilla is also locked away, designated as an enemy combatant. He, too, is a U.S. citizen. He'd been arrested on U.S. soil at Chicago's O'Hare Airport, accused of planning a dirty bomb attack.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: They will refile. But whatever those involved in the case do, they will know now that they have to answer to the courts -- Wolf?
BLITZER: Bob Franken at the Supreme Court for us, as usual. Bob, thanks very much.
More on today's important Supreme Court rulings later this hour. I'll speak live with Tom Wilner -- he's an attorney who's been representing some of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay -- and Victoria Toensing -- she's a former deputy attorney general who has helped prosecute several terror cases.
There are also new developments late today concerning U.S. Army Private Matt Maupin, captured in April by Iraqi insurgents. For that, let's go live to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Wolf. Well, Army officials today contacted the family of Matthew Maupin near Cincinnati to warn them about media interest in a videotape that may show a man being killed by insurgents in Iraq, all of this according to Pentagon sources.
Now, two senior officials tell CNN there is no way to tell who the victim is that apparently is being killed on this videotape, but Pentagon officials have remained very concerned about the fate of Matthew Maupin since he was taken by insurgents April 9 when his convoy was attacked near Baghdad. He was seen once, of course, on a videotape shortly after he was taken by insurgents, but there has been no word of him since.
And when this videotape -- word of this new videotape began to circulate today amongst the media, there was a lot of interest and the Army decided to go ahead, contact his family, and warn them that the media was going to start reporting about this videotape. But still, no way to tell for sure if it is Private 1st Class Matthew Maupin, the victim on the tape -- Wolf.
BLITZER: What a heart-wrenching wait this must be for that family. Barbara Starr, thanks very much for that.
There's also word that a U.S. Marine is missing in Iraq. A video that appeared on Al-Jazeera television purports to show Corporal Wassef Hassoun in custody. Although, Pentagon officials say he's been missing for more than a week, they can't confirm that he's been taken hostage. Officials say Hassoun speaks Arabic and has relatives in Lebanon, possibly even a wife.
There's also word of yet more violence happening in the Middle East. A Palestinian news agency says that Israeli helicopter gunship has fired three missiles into a building in Gaza City that houses the agency. So far, no reports of casualties.
A new day, a new era in Iraq. As the handover to sovereignty arrives, so does the man who will head the largest U.S. Embassy in the world. Up next, Ambassador John Negroponte and the new challenge his faces.
Plus -- he was once Saddam Hussein's arch enemy. Now, he's the most powerful man in Iraq. Hear how Iraq's Prime Minister Iyad Allawi became the new man in charge.
And later -- captured in Afghanistan, held at Guantanamo. See what daily life is like for U.S. enemy combatants.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From our studios in Washington, once again, Wolf Blitzer.
BLITZER: Welcome back. History has been made: the handover of Iraq is now complete. We'll look at challenges that still exist. First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.
United Nations inspectors got a first-hand look today at an Iranian site which the United States says was used to carry out secret nuclear weapons activities. The complex in Tehran is near a military installation. Satellite photographs show the buildings have been razed and much of the topsoil removed. Iran denies the complex was a nuclear site.
In Saudi Arabia, a senior member of al Qaeda has surrendered to authorities and accepted an offer of amnesty. That word today from sources in the Saudi kingdom. The man is said to be on a Saudi list of 26 most-wanted terror suspects. He's the most senior member of al Qaeda so far to turn himself in to Saudi authorities.
A stern warning today from the judge in the Scott Peterson murder trial in California. He threatened to enforce a gag order unless both sides stop making public comments about the case. The warning follows remarks by a Modesto police spokesman who told reporters Defense Attorney Mark Geragos was trying to spin facts about police reports.
With the departure of Coalition Administrator Paul Bremer, Ambassador John Negroponte becomes the top U.S. civilian official in Iraq. Our national security correspondent David Ensor's joining us now for a look at some of the challenges that Negroponte faces -- David?
DAVID ENSOR, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, they will be considerable. He's expected in Baghdad within the week. And he and the State Department are stressing that he will play a much different role than Paul Bremer did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): With Paul Bremer's departure, Prime Minister Iyad al Allawi became the most powerful man in Iraq. The new top American, Ambassador John Negroponte, may be a power behind the scenes, though he is playing down his role.
JOHN NEGROPONTE, AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: To offer support and assistance to the Iraqi people and government as Iraq reasserts its full sovereignty.
FRANK RICCIARDONE, U.S.-IRAQ TRANSITION: No U.S. ambassador goes out expecting to run a foreign country, nor even if that were in his mind, the Iraqis wouldn't let him.
ENSOR: Workers have been rushing to transform one of Saddam's former palaces into the new U.S. Embassy headquarters. From this building, Negroponte will lead the largest embassy in the world, about 1,000 Americans and 700 Iraqis. His deputy says security will be a constant concern.
JAMES JEFFREY, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF MISSION: We receive incoming rocket and mortar fire in this vicinity quite often. But our goal is to ensure that we are not overrun, that we do not get significant hostile fire. And so far, we've been lucky. ENSOR: In a symbol of sovereignty, Iraqi's new government will soon take over legal custody of Saddam Hussein. But American officials say they will still keep their hands on him.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I would expect that legal custody would be handed over shortly, but physical custody would remain in our hands for the foreseeable future.
ENSOR: American troops will still take orders from American commanders. But a major question is, what happens with the next Fallujah, the next major military challenge? It is not clear.
REUEL MARC GERECHT, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: If you have people attacking the Americans, the Americans may want to respond with a good deal of force. There may be individuals in the government who don't want them to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: In theory, American commanders can do what they want. But if Prime Minister Allawi or his government objects, that could cause commanders to think twice about taking on a fight. Finding the right balance now between security and sovereignty for Iraqis may not be easy -- Wolf.
BLITZER: David Ensor with that report -- thanks, David, very much.
The man heading the new Iraqi sovereign government, the interim prime minister, Iyad Allawi, describes his country's current situation as a temporary setback. And he's predicting that Iraqis -- and I'm quoting now -- "will rise up like mountains."
CNN's Zain Verjee has more on the man in charge of the new Iraq -- Zain.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the key question for the Iraqi prime minister is this: How is he going to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis who think he's an American puppet and at the same time crack down on an insurgency that appears more ruthless and more organized? The answer may lie in what kind of man Iyad Allawi is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: As recognized in U.N. Security Council Resolution...
VERJEE (voice-over): Taking control of a country in the midst of an insurgency, many will tell you Prime Minister Iyad Allawi is in quite an unenviable position.
CHARLIE CLOVER, "FINANCIAL TIMES": He has to convince the armed groups in Iraq that their future lies not in armed struggle against his interim government, but in joining the political process and in supporting his government.
VERJEE: Those who know him say he's a convincing man with good ideas. He's also someone they say who's willing to get tough.
MAMOUN FANDY, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: He will go also with the force, brute force, that the Americans -- Americans like. He would bring sort old Iraq back in some sense in terms of the use of force.
VERJEE: Some analysts say the 58-year-old physician was selected to be prime minister only because he had the fewest enemies. His list of friends, though, may be unsettling to many Iraqis. He makes no apologies for his ties to the CIA while in exile.
IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER-DESIGNATE: We don't being ashamed of being (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and having been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to liberate Iraq from the evil forces of Saddam.
VERJEE: Allawi was once a Baath Party operative, for reasons unclear, he fell out of favor with Saddam. He set up the Iraqi National Accord while in exile, which drew former Baathists and Iraqi military officials.
In 1978, he was almost killed with an ax in an assassination ordered by Saddam and almost two decades launched a failed and bloody coup to oust the dictator from power. Though he has no political base, Allawi comes from a prominent Shia family and is supported by the powerful Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.
FANDY: It's an amazing advantage for him. Shia are the majority of Iraq, not only majority, the majority with the resources. I mean, most of the oil of Iraq is in Shia land, as well as in Kurdish land.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE: Wolf, Mr. Allawi is walking a political tightrope, analysts say. He needs the Americans to succeed, but he also needs to distance himself from them if he is to survive. And he navigates could really be the difference between success and failure -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Zain, a lot of analysts also suggesting Allawi is effectively being given mission impossible. What are you hearing?
VERJEE: Well, yes, essentially, they are saying that. But what they're saying is, Mr. Allawi is a very pragmatic man and that it's essential for him to distance himself from the Americans because in that way, the Iraqis will look at him as much more legitimate.
They also say there's absolutely no point for the Americans to control Allawi by remote control, if you will, in some dark corner in the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. And give him a little breathing space, they say. They also add that Mr. Allawi will use ruthless force if he has to. He's not going to talk broadly about Zarqawi groups or terrorists.
He's going to talk specifics, specific people, specific neighborhoods and specific groups. And he's going to use Iraqi forces to do the dirty work in that instance. And just one more thing, Wolf. They also add, it's not mission impossible, because if he can do it by being forceful on the one hand, he uses another pronged strategy of being a lot more inclusive and allowing legitimate political parties to come under one umbrella, he could succeed and lead to national reconciliation -- Wolf.
BLITZER: CNN's Zain Verjee reporting for us -- Zain, thanks very much.
The Guantanamo factor, the United States still holding hundreds of enemy combatants. We'll revisit the base in light of today's historic United States Supreme Court ruling.
And later, the clash of the titans. Two elder statesmen, two very different views on American forces in Iraq. We'll get to that.
First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Death from the sky. Israeli emergency officials say, a Palestinian-made custom Kassam rocket fired from Gaza killed two people when it landed near a kindergarten in a nearby Israeli town. One of the victims was 3 years old. They are the first known deaths caused by the crude homemade Kassam rockets.
Push for peace. The foreign ministers of India and Pakistan met for six hours today, following a similar meeting yesterday. The nuclear rivals reached agreements on missile testing notification, opening consulates and continuing efforts to end the five-decade-old dispute over the control of Kashmir.
Bathtub battle; 30 teams took part in the 12th annual International Bathtub Race in Leipzig, Germany. Team Liechtenstein took that prize. It also was awarded best design.
And that's our look around the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
As our Bob Franken reported earlier, history was made at the U.S. Supreme Court today, when it ruled that detainees at the United States Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have the right to challenge their detentions in U.S. courts.
CNN's Brian Todd takes a look at detainees and the facility where they're being held.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly 600 men, officially called enemy combatants, captured from the battlefields of Afghanistan in the war on terror, the first wave arrived at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base on January 11, 2002. In February of this year, a top Pentagon allowed to how lethal and well-connected some of these men were.
PAUL BUTLER, DEPUTY ASST. DEFENSE SECRETARY FOR SPECIAL OPERATIONS: There's an individual who served as a bodyguard for Osama bin Laden and escorted him to Tora Bora, Afghanistan, following the fall of Jalalabad.
TODD: We contacted an official at Guantanamo to see if that person is still there. He wouldn't tell us, but he did say 146 detainees have been released from Guantanamo, 12 of them to continued detention in their home countries, 134 released outright.
According to the official, of those still there, one section, Camp Delta, houses two types. The more dangerous live in single cells, separated by mesh wiring. The more cooperative get to live in open rooms, several beds to a room, and get to play sports on occasion.
All detainees have small arrows painted on the floors of their quarters pointing toward Mecca. There is also Camp Echo, housing less than a dozen detainees who are going before military commissions. These men have, according to a military official at Guantanamo, already been able to meet with attorneys. U.S. officials have at various times hailed the intelligence they've gotten from inside the barbed wire.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: They have provided information on al Qaeda front companies and on bank accounts, on surface-to-air missiles, improvised explosive devices and tactics that are used by terrorist elements.
TODD (on camera): but one senior defense official tells CNN, many detainees have said nothing or given false information. Those considered the top-level Al Qaeda figures in U.S. custody, like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah, are held by the CIA at separate, undisclosed locations.
(voice-over): As for this location, these detainees are a metaphor for a place that's always been in limbo. Treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, says the Pentagon, but not considered POWs, they inhabit a section of land that's isolated, but strategically vital
RETIRED GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN, U.S. ARMY: I think it's significant with our presence in this hemisphere and particularly in Latin America and to a degree next to a communist regime in Cuba.
TODD: Captured by U.S. forces during the Spanish-American War in 1898, the property at Guantanamo has been leased for more than a century. The Cuban government still gets $340 a month from the U.S. Navy. It's been a fortress since the U.S. cut off diplomatic relations following the rise of Fidel Castro and has been used to house large waves of Haitian and Cuban refugees.
Now these men, seemingly with new legal rights, may still not leave this island within an island any time soon.
Brian Todd, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Today's Supreme Court rulings on detainee rights raise a number of issues.
Joining us now to discuss those issues, two guests. Tom Wilner is an attorney for some of those Guantanamo detainees. And Victoria Toensing is a former Justice Department official, a prosecutor over there.
Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Tom, you're the lawyer now for some of these detainees. What do you do now?
THOMAS WILNER, ATTORNEY FOR GUANTANAMO BAY DETAINEES: Well, what the court said today is, they rejected the government's argument that the courts have no authority over Guantanamo. They said the courts have authority. We intend to go into court soon and exercise that authority, ask the United States to enforce the laws.
BLITZER: Which court are you going into?
WILNER: We're going to go into the district court of the District of Columbia, which has primary jurisdiction over the case.
BLITZER: And what are you going to say?
WILNER: We're going to ask them to really enforce the law. Geneva Conventions are being violated.
First, we're going to ask for two things mainly. We want immediately a report on the health and status of these people. Have they been treated humanely in the past and are they being now? And then we're going to ask for hearings that are required for the Geneva Conventions and our military regulations, just to see whether there's a basis to have them there. They have never had a hearing.
Let me just say, tomorrow will be the 900th day that these people have been held at Guantanamo. They have been held without charge and without any trial and without even a hearing. We want the hearings.
BLITZER: Vicky, what do you say? Major setback for the Justice Department today?
VICTORIA TOENSING, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, I think it's a major problem for the judiciary, because it's the judiciary that's going to have to deal with all of these various cases. And the case raises more questions than it answers. The only thing these six justices who I dare say have never been a trial judge, all they say is, hey, the respondent gets to something. The government gets to say something. The petitioner gets to say.
And then we don't know what's going to happen after that and we don't need to settle that right now.
BLITZER: Well, are they saying that there's no difference between being held at Guantanamo Bay, which is Cuba but under U.S. control, as opposed to being held in the continental United States?
TOENSING: That's exactly how I read the case. It makes no difference.
And, in fact, Judge Scalia says that in the dissent. Here, the government kept them at Guantanamo in a special kind of status.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Well, they kept them there because they assumed they -- the courts would have no jurisdiction over them, but the Supreme Court says that assumption was wrong.
TOENSING: The Supreme Court says that, but then they don't say the things that I think if I were a federal judge, a trial judge, I would want to know, like, what is the standard of review?
See, habeas -- and that's what this case is all about -- when you go into a habeas hearing, it's usually for a criminal case after a conviction and was there a constitutional deprivation and that? So minor things get left out.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: All right, let's let Tom respond to that.
Go ahead, Tom.
WILNER: Well, let me say this is a significant victory today, not only for the detainees, but for America, I think. What the court held today is that government officials are not beyond the law, even in times of war.
They can't escape the law and review by the courts by taking people offshore. Let me disagree with Vicky. Traditionally, habeas, a common law, is not to challenge something after you're convicted. It's to challenge a detention by the government, arbitrary detention by the government. Our founders really believed that government is not infallible and that government officials must be subject to judicial review.
BLITZER: Is it your understanding, Tom, that these detainees, enemy combatants, now have a right to an attorney?
TOENSING: That's going to be open to the courts.
Let me just say, though -- and it's a critical thing, Wolf -- these are suspected enemy combatants. It's now out in the public that more than 50 percent of these people were probably picked up by mistake for bounties. The administration recently admitted that at most 50 of the people there have information and are dangerous. You have got 600 people there. (CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: About of whom 100 have already been released.
Go ahead, Vicky.
TOENSING: Well, I agree with Tom that the old way of the habeas, the initial theory of habeas was for releasing the body. But now what it's really become for the judges who are on the bench is in a criminal context.
So I dare say how do we work this out for winning the war if all of a sudden -- and I'm sure Tom's going to go in there and say I want five witnesses to tell me who else was present when you were stopped on the battlefield.
(CROSSTALK)
TOENSING: I'd do it, too, Wolf.
BLITZER: If you were representing those enemy combatants, you'd be saying the same thing.
TOENSING: Of course I would. I wanted to give Tom credit.
But he would come and in and say, I want all the witnesses that were there. We're going to take people off the battlefield to come back here and be witnesses? I think Tom and I do agree -- and I have said this throughout -- that I thought that the Defense Department should have gotten off its rear end and gotten some kind of process going down there. And if that had happened, we wouldn't have what I think today is a bad Supreme Court decision.
BLITZER: Practically speaking, though, when all is said and done, the Supreme Court didn't decide whether or not there's guilt or innocence. They said the government can hold them, but you just have to make sure the courts have some jurisdiction.
WILNER: Well, really, the government never allowed us to get to argue the facts. They just said the courts have no authority there.
You know, let me tell you, if people are enemy combatants and they're dangerous, they should be held. What the victory today is about is the rule of law, that people are entitled to a process. These people have been held 900 days with no process whatsoever.
BLITZER: What do you make of the Yaser Hamdi decision today, which is also a significant decision? Born in the United States, only a few months when his parents took him from Louisiana to Saudi Arabia, captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan, held as an enemy combatant in the United States, but now the Supreme Court says, you know what? He, too, has some judicial rights.
TOENSING: He does have some judicial rights, says the Supreme Court. And I'm trying to square that case with the Guantanamo case, because, basically, Sandra Day O'Connor in that case said, well, maybe a military commission is OK. But I didn't see maybe a military commission is OK down in Cuba.
So it would be a strange thing if these noncitizens are entitled to be in our federal courts, but Hamdi, who is a U.S. citizen, is not.
BLITZER: You get the last word, Tom.
WILNER: Maybe a military commission is OK, but some commission must be there. There must be some rule of law. These people need to have the right to go to somebody to see if they are there by mistake, to prove their innocence.
TOENSING: On that, we agree. On that, we agree.
BLITZER: All right, history being made today at the United States Supreme Court, lots of unanswered questions, though. I think we all agree on that as well.
WILNER: Thank you.
BLITZER: More than 100,000 U.S. troops still in Iraq, 135,000, or 140,000, to be precise. How long should they stay, very strong and very different opinions from two elder statesmen, the clash of the titans, Henry Kissinger and Zbigniew Brzezinski. They go head to head and it gets personal.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: There's a developing story happening in Gaza right now.
CNN's John Vause is there.
John, first of all, tell our viewers where you are and what's going on.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, right now, I'm standing on the roof of what we know as the Ramattan Studios building. It's a tall building in Gaza City. It houses not just Arab media, as well as Palestinian media, but also international media outlets like CNN, like the BBC, media outlets from Germany.
And within the last hour or so, last 30 minutes or so, three missiles hit this building. Three Israeli missiles hit this building on the third floor, injuring two journalists from the Ramattan Studios, a privately run Palestinian production facility. They are now being treated in hospital. There is chaos on the streets. There is debris. There is traffic jams, as you can imagine.
We've been waiting for some kind of response from Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister. He went to the security cabinet earlier today seeking permission for some kind of military response after missiles were fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel earlier today, killing two Israelis, among them a small boy.
We had been waiting for this military response that's happened. There's also been another strike on a Gaza refugee camp of what Israel calls a bomb-making workshop -- Wolf. BLITZER: CNN's John Vause, breaking news, reporting from Gaza for us.
John, please be careful over there. Thank you very much.
In the international -- in fact, in the American international policy establishment, it was what many people are regarding now as a clash of the titans, two former U.S. presidential advisers strongly disagreeing on Iraq, with bitter comparisons of the Vietnam War being hurled.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): With the transfer of power in Iraq now a done deal, the question arises: When should U.S. troops pull out?
ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think the longer we stay, the greater the difficulties of transition.
BLITZER: Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser, says, set a hard date now and then prepare to leave.
BRZEZINSKI: So I would say sometime next year, sometime next year, maybe as early as April, which will have been two years since the occupation, maybe towards the end of the year.
BLITZER: Brzezinski says the continued U.S. military presence in Iraq merely endangers the overall situation, as U.S. forces and their allies in Iraq and the region become a lightning rod for terror attacks.
BRZEZINSKI: What we have to recognize and face is the fact that our involvement in Iraq is becoming now a catalyst for unrest throughout the Middle East. And it's destabilizing Saudi Arabia. It's galvanizing Arab passions against the United States.
BLITZER: But Henry Kissinger, who served as secretary of state under Presidents Nixon and Ford, says setting such a flat exit date would be a disaster, a position also taken by President Bush.
HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Dr. Brzezinski and I have been on programs for 30 years, but I've never disagreed with him as much. I think such a complete collapse of the American position would have disastrous consequences for us on a global basis. It is a phony argument to say we either stay indefinitely or we get out next April.
BLITZER: Brzezinski shot back, insisting Kissinger, while secretary of state, used to make the very same argument during an earlier U.S. military engagement abroad, one that ended in failure.
BRZEZINSKI: So Henry said more than that. My good old friend said it was a phony argument. And I won't return the compliment by suggesting that his argument is very reminiscent of what he used to say of the Vietnamese War, when he was arguing that we should stay until we see light at the end of the tunnel.
KISSINGER: I never used the argument, a light at the end of the tunnel. I said, indeed, during the Vietnam War that we could not simply abandon people to which four American administration of both parties had pledged support.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: International policy experts, both in and out of the U.S. government, tell me the clash between these two elder statesmen over an exit strategy in Iraq may actually signal the start of a broader debate among the American public at large.
The results of our Web question of the day, that's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our Web question of the day; 48 percent of you say yes. Look at this: 52 percent say no. Relatively evenly divided, though not a scientific poll.
A reminder, we're on twice a day, noon Eastern, as well as 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
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