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CNN Live Today

Audio From Saddam's Court Appearance

Aired July 01, 2004 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Right now, as we watch these pictures, very compelling pictures of the former President Saddam Hussein facing a court of law in Iraq for the first time. Standing by in our Baghdad bureau watching these proceedings as well as we are Brent Sadler with CNN International and our Anderson Cooper. Good morning to both of you.
Anderson, I want to get your take as you're looking at these tapes and listening to Saddam Hussein. It almost seems -- you know, I have to ask, who's in charge here? Because the judge starts the proceedings, asks some mundane questions, asking what is your residence? Of course, Iraq. What is your mother's name? Saddam Hussein answers.

And then suddenly the former president jumps in there and start challenging the authority of this judge and that argument continues for another 15 minutes.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes it's fascinating to watch this happen. As we get more and more of the audio, we see this more and more.

And there really was sort of a change, I think, early on. A lot of people describe Saddam Hussein as sort of downcast, looking down, kind of lethargic, his voice raspy, hoarse.

But as you just saw on that tape we've been watching, toward the end of the proceeding, it seems almost as if he is in charge. Yes he has lost weight. Yes he is no longer as presidential as he once was. But there is an authority there and he seems to be lecturing this young judge.

Brent Sadler was just out with families here in Baghdad watching the tape and their reaction was fascinating.

LIN: Anderson, I'm going to jump in right now. Brent, stand by because we've gotten the audio back on the first tape. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Thank you. Mr. Saddam, I'm the judge of -- investigative judge of the Central Court of Iraq. So I know -- I'm the investigative judge of the Central Court in Baghdad, in Iraq... HUSSEIN (through translator): What law formed this court? This law was by the Coalition forces -- Authority. So you are an Iraqi that represents the occupying force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I'm an Iraqi representing Iraq.

HUSSEIN (through translator): But you...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former regime. And I'm resuming my work.

HUSSEIN (through translator): And that is -- this -- I meant -- I meant by that that Iraqis have to respect the laws of Iraq. So the Iraqi judicial system was formed because of the will of the people with rights. Yes, God willing.

So you should not work according to a law enacted by what you call the Coalition Authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Let me clarify one important point to you. If there is evidence, there's conviction. If there's no evidence, you'll be released and that's it.

So far you're an accused before the Iraqi judicial system. According to that but let's be...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Not because I want to complicate matters, let me ask a question. You are a judge. And the judges value the law. And they rule by law, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. Law or rights are relative for -- this is investigation. This is...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. I don't care if you convict me or not, that's not what's important.

What's important is you remembering that you are a judge empowered --then don't mention anything occupying forces. Because your people -- because your people don't like that. You -- I rule in the name of people, yes, that's great. Then you name in the rule people. You are an Iraqi judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam. To carry out the investigative process, you need to know the rights. Let me...

TRANSLATOR: One second.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right. That is the end of the first tape. We have three more tapes of Saddam Hussein addressing the court as the judge attempts to get the former president of Iraq to try to accept and address the seven preliminary counts of war crimes against him. Those include crimes of invading Kuwait, killing religious figures, gassing the Kurds in Hallabja north of Baghdad -- north of Iraq, in 1974.

The former president refused to accept those charges. Now we continue with more of Saddam Hussein's testimony at his arraignment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have nothing to do with Saddam Hussein. It was deferred to an Iraqi court. That's not it. This is the -- this is the situation. So first, intended killing -- deliberate killing. Second intended killing of many Iraqis in 1983. Three, intended killing to members of political parties without trial trials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. The tape just rewinding as we get this in. Remember you're looking at a live pool feed as all the networks receive this videotape simultaneously out of Baghdad where this preliminary hearing is being held at a place called Camp Victory, a former palace of Saddam Hussein outside of Baghdad.

Here a graphic illustrating some of the charges against him, considered to be war crimes. Suppression of the Kurds and Shi'ites in 1991, the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, just to mention a few. These may not be the specific charges that he will actually be tried on once his trial starts.

We're going to go to Baghdad right now where CNN's Brent Sadler is standing by. Also, Anderson Cooper watching these hearings.

Anderson, you were just addressing Brent. Brent, you had the experience of talking with some of the -- at least one family in the Shi'a community getting reaction to today's proceedings. It must have been remarkable for them to see their former president standing in a court of law.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, yes, I was just explaining to Anderson before we came on air extraordinary, actually. I spent two hours with these families in the Shi'a district of Baghdad.

And they were really expecting to feel somewhat fulfilled about the judicial process starting and seeing Saddam Hussein facing an Iraqi court of law. But the images they saw really turn them on their heels. They were shocked that the president was able -- the ex- president was able to act presidential, if you like. Less -- more the president challenging the judge.

They felt the judge was inexperienced, incapable of controlling, reigning in the president. And they were surprised that he was able to sit down, look comfortable, write notes. They said his hands didn't appear nervous, shaking in anyway. They were quite surprised. They said that this was a too fair a trial, if you like. He was getting too good treatment given the crimes -- the heinous crimes he's being charged with.

COOPER: It's also interesting, Carol, when you think about what happened before the images were seen which was this perp walk were Saddam Hussein was led in handcuffs out of an armored bus into the courtroom.

We had anticipated seeing that videotape first. I'm wondering, Brent, if the reaction of the family you were with would have somehow been different have they seen those images, images we still at this have not seen.

SADLER: Absolutely. They were expecting to see the ex-president looking like a fallen, broken man, in much the same way as the saw him last December when he was captured. To see him, as you like, rejuvenated. And the more he spoke, the more he picked up speed, the more he became provacative, defiant, challenging, the more the people were getting despondent that this perhaps might be something that might embolden the pro-Saddam loyalists who are involved in the insurgency out here.

COOPER: Interesting point, also, that the audio -- you can really hear Saddam Hussein, you cannot hear the judge as well which sort of adds to the sense, I think, accurate or not, that Saddam was sort of being charged with this, particularly toward the end of the proceeding, where he seems to be running the show. Not only gesticulating toward the judge, but sort of lecturing the judge on what it means to be a judge as if Saddam Hussein would really know.

SADLER: You know, it's very reminiscent of the way we used to see Saddam lecturing to his Revolutionary Command Council. You know, the gesticulations were the same, the hand movements were very similar. Obviously he's wearing a beard now rather than the dark mustache that we're used to seeing him with.

But this was Saddam holding his court within this court. I mean extraordinary. And people were very shocked to see this.

COOPER: It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out -- Carol.

LIN: Brent, do you have a sense that the Iraqis are essentially winging it from a legal front? I know that they've got U.S. advisers giving them a sense of how to conduct a trial. But who is actually guiding the proceedings on the ground? Why was it that Saddam Hussein was allowed to take over those proceedings as such?

SADLER: Well, this tribunal is very much, you know, on its beginning stages. It's just been put together. The evidence...

LIN: Brent, my apologies, I'm going to have to interrupt you because we have new tape coming in of Saddam Hussein's testimony before this Iraqi tribunal. There you see a shot of the judge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUSSEIN (through translator): The truth is a relative matter. For us -- is this investigation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. this is a...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Then let me -- then I hope that you remember that you are a judge in the name of people. I don't care if you convict me or not. As for me, that's not the important thing. You are -- it is important that you remember that you're a judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, I am.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Don't mention anything that is called occupying forces. That is hated by your people. That's shameful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I judge by the will of -- in the name of the people.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes, yes, that's good. You are an Iraqi judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, so that we start the investigative process, you should know what are the crimes that are...

HUSSEIN (through translator): From the legal standpoint, let me ask, you were notified that I had lawyers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. Yes.

HUSSEIN (through translator): I not supposed to meet my lawyers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No. If you waited ten minutes, then we would have finished the formalities.

HUSSEIN (through translator): OK, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you would have heard the guarantees and the rights vis-a-vis this mechanism...

HUSSEIN (through translator): So that this public opinion in the world, so that we, the occupying country, have nothing to do with Saddam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, that's not -- Saddam Hussein. No, this is -- no that's not the issue.

HUSSEIN (through translator): This is the issue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So the crimes that are charges, intended killing by using chemical weapons in the -- Hallabja.

HUSSEIN (through translator): No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Second, intended killings to a great number of Iraqis in 1983. Three, intended killing to a number of members of the political parties without trials. Fourth, intended killing to many religious -- Iraqi religious people. Fifth, intended killing to many Iraqis and...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Without any evidence I guess that is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For -- you have the right to defend and answer. These are the guarantees.

Now we come to an important matter. You have heard the court read the crimes that you're charged or were attributed to the accused, Saddam Hussein.

And according to the -- and you were told what the articles of the law that applies to those cases and court has read to you the rights and guarantees that any accused is entitled to which includes the rights of defense and a presentation.

And also the right not to answer any question asked. And that will never be used as evidence against you, against the accused.

And the court also presented to the accused the right to argue the evidence. The accused asked, requested, to meet with a defense lawyer -- with defense lawyers. Yes, defense lawyers, that his private defense lawyers to be present with him in the investigative sessions.

And in light of that, the minutes were concluded and the investigation is deferred, postponed, until the accused is enabled to contact his representation, his lawyers. And another appointment for the next session will be decided.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes. The charges that were levied against Saddam Hussein. Go ahead. You should sign so that I can talk to -- OK. Let me sign.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: That's the end of that particular tape where it appears that the judge in Iraq was in a sense reading Saddam his rights, his right to an attorney, his right to argue the charges. And all while you could see that Saddam Hussein was focusing and taking notes.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired July 1, 2004 - 11:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Right now, as we watch these pictures, very compelling pictures of the former President Saddam Hussein facing a court of law in Iraq for the first time. Standing by in our Baghdad bureau watching these proceedings as well as we are Brent Sadler with CNN International and our Anderson Cooper. Good morning to both of you.
Anderson, I want to get your take as you're looking at these tapes and listening to Saddam Hussein. It almost seems -- you know, I have to ask, who's in charge here? Because the judge starts the proceedings, asks some mundane questions, asking what is your residence? Of course, Iraq. What is your mother's name? Saddam Hussein answers.

And then suddenly the former president jumps in there and start challenging the authority of this judge and that argument continues for another 15 minutes.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes it's fascinating to watch this happen. As we get more and more of the audio, we see this more and more.

And there really was sort of a change, I think, early on. A lot of people describe Saddam Hussein as sort of downcast, looking down, kind of lethargic, his voice raspy, hoarse.

But as you just saw on that tape we've been watching, toward the end of the proceeding, it seems almost as if he is in charge. Yes he has lost weight. Yes he is no longer as presidential as he once was. But there is an authority there and he seems to be lecturing this young judge.

Brent Sadler was just out with families here in Baghdad watching the tape and their reaction was fascinating.

LIN: Anderson, I'm going to jump in right now. Brent, stand by because we've gotten the audio back on the first tape. Let's listen in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Thank you. Mr. Saddam, I'm the judge of -- investigative judge of the Central Court of Iraq. So I know -- I'm the investigative judge of the Central Court in Baghdad, in Iraq... HUSSEIN (through translator): What law formed this court? This law was by the Coalition forces -- Authority. So you are an Iraqi that represents the occupying force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, I'm an Iraqi representing Iraq.

HUSSEIN (through translator): But you...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former regime. And I'm resuming my work.

HUSSEIN (through translator): And that is -- this -- I meant -- I meant by that that Iraqis have to respect the laws of Iraq. So the Iraqi judicial system was formed because of the will of the people with rights. Yes, God willing.

So you should not work according to a law enacted by what you call the Coalition Authorities.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Let me clarify one important point to you. If there is evidence, there's conviction. If there's no evidence, you'll be released and that's it.

So far you're an accused before the Iraqi judicial system. According to that but let's be...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Not because I want to complicate matters, let me ask a question. You are a judge. And the judges value the law. And they rule by law, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. Law or rights are relative for -- this is investigation. This is...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. I don't care if you convict me or not, that's not what's important.

What's important is you remembering that you are a judge empowered --then don't mention anything occupying forces. Because your people -- because your people don't like that. You -- I rule in the name of people, yes, that's great. Then you name in the rule people. You are an Iraqi judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam. To carry out the investigative process, you need to know the rights. Let me...

TRANSLATOR: One second.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right. That is the end of the first tape. We have three more tapes of Saddam Hussein addressing the court as the judge attempts to get the former president of Iraq to try to accept and address the seven preliminary counts of war crimes against him. Those include crimes of invading Kuwait, killing religious figures, gassing the Kurds in Hallabja north of Baghdad -- north of Iraq, in 1974.

The former president refused to accept those charges. Now we continue with more of Saddam Hussein's testimony at his arraignment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have nothing to do with Saddam Hussein. It was deferred to an Iraqi court. That's not it. This is the -- this is the situation. So first, intended killing -- deliberate killing. Second intended killing of many Iraqis in 1983. Three, intended killing to members of political parties without trial trials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. The tape just rewinding as we get this in. Remember you're looking at a live pool feed as all the networks receive this videotape simultaneously out of Baghdad where this preliminary hearing is being held at a place called Camp Victory, a former palace of Saddam Hussein outside of Baghdad.

Here a graphic illustrating some of the charges against him, considered to be war crimes. Suppression of the Kurds and Shi'ites in 1991, the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, just to mention a few. These may not be the specific charges that he will actually be tried on once his trial starts.

We're going to go to Baghdad right now where CNN's Brent Sadler is standing by. Also, Anderson Cooper watching these hearings.

Anderson, you were just addressing Brent. Brent, you had the experience of talking with some of the -- at least one family in the Shi'a community getting reaction to today's proceedings. It must have been remarkable for them to see their former president standing in a court of law.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, yes, I was just explaining to Anderson before we came on air extraordinary, actually. I spent two hours with these families in the Shi'a district of Baghdad.

And they were really expecting to feel somewhat fulfilled about the judicial process starting and seeing Saddam Hussein facing an Iraqi court of law. But the images they saw really turn them on their heels. They were shocked that the president was able -- the ex- president was able to act presidential, if you like. Less -- more the president challenging the judge.

They felt the judge was inexperienced, incapable of controlling, reigning in the president. And they were surprised that he was able to sit down, look comfortable, write notes. They said his hands didn't appear nervous, shaking in anyway. They were quite surprised. They said that this was a too fair a trial, if you like. He was getting too good treatment given the crimes -- the heinous crimes he's being charged with.

COOPER: It's also interesting, Carol, when you think about what happened before the images were seen which was this perp walk were Saddam Hussein was led in handcuffs out of an armored bus into the courtroom.

We had anticipated seeing that videotape first. I'm wondering, Brent, if the reaction of the family you were with would have somehow been different have they seen those images, images we still at this have not seen.

SADLER: Absolutely. They were expecting to see the ex-president looking like a fallen, broken man, in much the same way as the saw him last December when he was captured. To see him, as you like, rejuvenated. And the more he spoke, the more he picked up speed, the more he became provacative, defiant, challenging, the more the people were getting despondent that this perhaps might be something that might embolden the pro-Saddam loyalists who are involved in the insurgency out here.

COOPER: Interesting point, also, that the audio -- you can really hear Saddam Hussein, you cannot hear the judge as well which sort of adds to the sense, I think, accurate or not, that Saddam was sort of being charged with this, particularly toward the end of the proceeding, where he seems to be running the show. Not only gesticulating toward the judge, but sort of lecturing the judge on what it means to be a judge as if Saddam Hussein would really know.

SADLER: You know, it's very reminiscent of the way we used to see Saddam lecturing to his Revolutionary Command Council. You know, the gesticulations were the same, the hand movements were very similar. Obviously he's wearing a beard now rather than the dark mustache that we're used to seeing him with.

But this was Saddam holding his court within this court. I mean extraordinary. And people were very shocked to see this.

COOPER: It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out -- Carol.

LIN: Brent, do you have a sense that the Iraqis are essentially winging it from a legal front? I know that they've got U.S. advisers giving them a sense of how to conduct a trial. But who is actually guiding the proceedings on the ground? Why was it that Saddam Hussein was allowed to take over those proceedings as such?

SADLER: Well, this tribunal is very much, you know, on its beginning stages. It's just been put together. The evidence...

LIN: Brent, my apologies, I'm going to have to interrupt you because we have new tape coming in of Saddam Hussein's testimony before this Iraqi tribunal. There you see a shot of the judge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUSSEIN (through translator): The truth is a relative matter. For us -- is this investigation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. this is a...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Then let me -- then I hope that you remember that you are a judge in the name of people. I don't care if you convict me or not. As for me, that's not the important thing. You are -- it is important that you remember that you're a judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, I am.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Don't mention anything that is called occupying forces. That is hated by your people. That's shameful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I judge by the will of -- in the name of the people.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes, yes, that's good. You are an Iraqi judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, so that we start the investigative process, you should know what are the crimes that are...

HUSSEIN (through translator): From the legal standpoint, let me ask, you were notified that I had lawyers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes. Yes.

HUSSEIN (through translator): I not supposed to meet my lawyers?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No. If you waited ten minutes, then we would have finished the formalities.

HUSSEIN (through translator): OK, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you would have heard the guarantees and the rights vis-a-vis this mechanism...

HUSSEIN (through translator): So that this public opinion in the world, so that we, the occupying country, have nothing to do with Saddam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, that's not -- Saddam Hussein. No, this is -- no that's not the issue.

HUSSEIN (through translator): This is the issue.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So the crimes that are charges, intended killing by using chemical weapons in the -- Hallabja.

HUSSEIN (through translator): No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Second, intended killings to a great number of Iraqis in 1983. Three, intended killing to a number of members of the political parties without trials. Fourth, intended killing to many religious -- Iraqi religious people. Fifth, intended killing to many Iraqis and...

HUSSEIN (through translator): Without any evidence I guess that is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For -- you have the right to defend and answer. These are the guarantees.

Now we come to an important matter. You have heard the court read the crimes that you're charged or were attributed to the accused, Saddam Hussein.

And according to the -- and you were told what the articles of the law that applies to those cases and court has read to you the rights and guarantees that any accused is entitled to which includes the rights of defense and a presentation.

And also the right not to answer any question asked. And that will never be used as evidence against you, against the accused.

And the court also presented to the accused the right to argue the evidence. The accused asked, requested, to meet with a defense lawyer -- with defense lawyers. Yes, defense lawyers, that his private defense lawyers to be present with him in the investigative sessions.

And in light of that, the minutes were concluded and the investigation is deferred, postponed, until the accused is enabled to contact his representation, his lawyers. And another appointment for the next session will be decided.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Yes. The charges that were levied against Saddam Hussein. Go ahead. You should sign so that I can talk to -- OK. Let me sign.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: That's the end of that particular tape where it appears that the judge in Iraq was in a sense reading Saddam his rights, his right to an attorney, his right to argue the charges. And all while you could see that Saddam Hussein was focusing and taking notes.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com