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American Morning
Saddam's Court Appearance
Aired July 01, 2004 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Here at 9:00 in New York City. We want to welcome you if you're just joining us here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Let's reset for a moment here. The images you're seeing are your screen are the first images we have seen of the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein facing an Iraqi judge earlier today. Seven preliminary charges read against him.
Charges ranging from the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shi'ite uprising in 1991. That was immediately after the first Persian Gulf War. Political killings, religious killings and the gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
Seven preliminary charges. Saddam Hussein one of 12 today to face an Iraqi judge. The other 11 proceedings, we understand, are still on the way. The status of those proceedings are not quite clear, but we do know a handful of those who will be facing a judge today, including Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister, and Chemical Ali, the man known and accused widely for his alleged involvement with the gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
Good morning. And welcome back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We've been talking to Christiane Amanpour, who was one of the very few reporters who were allowed in -- who were allowed inside that court proceeding. And her description truly has been fascinating, saying that the -- Saddam Hussein twice told the judge that he was Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq. She described him as thin and tired and defeated. And he was advised of his right to have counsel.
She also described him at times as a little bit confused and a little bit combative. And, again, while you're looking at this videotape of these proceedings, there is no audiotape. The U.S. military saying that they allowed no mics in the courtroom, and that they, in fact, also screened that tape to protect the identity of court employees and -- and security personnel who did not want their faces to appear on camera. And, again, that comes from U.S. military sources.
Let's take you right back to Christiane Amanpour, who has been following this all morning.
The proceedings started just about 700 a.m. Eastern Time, Christiane. Give me a sense of how quickly you think all of this is going to have an impact on -- on Iraqis and the Arab community. I mean, obviously, we're all looking at these first pictures coming out right now. What do you think happens next?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's obviously going to be a matter of great fascination for Iraqis. Even yesterday people were, you know, in a -- in a state of quite serious satisfaction when they knew that he had been handed over legally. And now to see these first pictures, which are coming out now, I mean, we were in the court room, so we saw them about -- we saw him about three hours ago. And he came in looking really, really a shadow of his former self.
You know, the image of Saddam Hussein is a man in military fatigues, pinning medals on, firing guns, smoking cigars, face on every mural, dressed in all sorts of different outfits, whether it be a Bedouin sheikh, or a field marshal or whatever it is, a business suit. Now, he's dressed in mismatched civilian clothes, a gray suit jacket, very nicely ironed, a starched white shirt, pressed brown trousers, with a belt and some brown -- black shoes that were very highly polished. But not what we're used to. And especially for the people inside the court, the Iraqis, who were just glued to this process.
A member of the new Iraqi government, Muwaffaq al-Rubaie, also Salem Chalabi, the executive director of this special tribunal, there were representatives from the prime minister and the deputy prime minister's office, and there were a few of their assistants. And their assistants were almost still shaking in their boots before Saddam came in.
They had no idea what to expect. Would it still be the strong man? Would he look at them and recognize them and one day get them again? I mean, really, it was that kind of situation.
The guards did not want to be shown. But they came in, you know, clearly proud to be guarding him and bringing him in, into this court of justice. The court reporters, two young men, Iraqi men, were busy scribbling all the notes as the judge told them to take the notes and the minutes of what was going on and put for the record the formalities that needed to go on the record.
You know, people were just amazed. And he comes in, and he's fairly thin, and he's got this much, much better beard than he did when he came out of that hole. But still, a beard. People had been used to just seeing him with a moustache.
He had big bags under his eyes. His face was very dark and his voice was very hoarse. And as I said, at the beginning of the procedure, he really didn't look at ease, he didn't look defiant. He just looked there, resigned, a little bit defeated.
And it was only as the process went on and the judge and he were exchanging conversation, comments, questions and answers for about 30 minutes, that he occasionally became much more robust, much more agitated, would sort of jab his finger at the judge, occasionally look at us, the observers. There was two unilaterally -- two unilateral independent reporters. I was one of them. There was a pool reporter and two (through translator): s. But we couldn't have loud or simultaneous translations, so we just got the basics in our ear. And now that process is formally under way. The (through translator): s are writing the transcript, and soon that will be out.
And then -- and then the charges were read against him after he was first asked his name. And then, you know, when he was asked his name and "Saddam Hussein, I am president of Iraq." Twice he said, "I am Saddam Hussein, president of Iraq." You know, people got a shock, because he's not president of Iraq. But he thinks that still.
And he asked the judge at the end, "Why am I being tried in this manner? The occupation didn't end my presidency. I'm still elected by the people of Iraq."
I mean, there's still an element of denial and some delusion going on here. And he was informed by the judge that under the Geneva Convention, the occupation, the occupying powers could strip him of his presidency. He was a prisoner of war. And now he was a suspect, accused in an Iraqi legal court. And that was that.
He refused to sign the statement saying that he had been read his rights, saying that he understood what was going on. He refused to sign the statement that he could request a lawyer. He said, "I won't do any signing until I have a lawyer present." The judge said, "Fine. On behalf of the court, then, I sign the fact that you have been read your rights."
At that point, Saddam said, "Is this finished?" The judge said, "Yes." And in Arabic, Saddam said, "Halas," which means finished, the end.
And he got up and he was a little unsteady. And one guard put his arm, you know, through his arm and really sort of supported him. The other guard you could see didn't know quite what to do. You know, this was still Saddam Hussein. And the guard sort of just kind of stood next to him, and they walked out. But afterwards, when we asked the guards outside what they thought, I mean, there were a lot of thumbs up and people saying that they were happy.
So an extraordinarily reversal of fortune, I suppose, is the understatement of -- of what I can say here. Those people who had been so brutalized by him are now guarding him, and basically the legal process will now define his fate.
He was read those seven charges involving killing of religious and political figures, involving gassing the Kurds, the invasion of -- of Kuwait. He was very, very animated about the Kuwait issue. He refused to accept that he could have invaded Kuwait. This was simply not -- nothing could convince him that he was being accused of invading Kuwait.
And said -- he said to the judge, "How could you, as an Iraqi, talk like this about invasion? I did that to defend the rights of the Iraqi people from those dogs." He called the Kuwaitis dogs, at which point the judge said, "Don't use words like that. This is a court of law. And those words are not permitted. Such language is not permitted in a court of law." So that was that, basically.
O'BRIEN: Christiane, earlier, Jeff Toobin described these proceeding. He sort of said for -- in American terms, it would be essentially kind of like an arraignment. And there have been some questions from viewers about, well, if this is -- is a legal proceeding, why does Saddam Hussein not have an attorney either appointed to him or next to him in the courtroom?
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, I'm not a legal expert, and I'm sure Jeffrey Toobin can tell you more about the -- the defense counsel activities in various stages of the legal process. But what we were told is that this is his first introduction to the fact that he is in Iraqi legal hands in the Iraqi criminal system here. And, therefore, he has not asked for a lawyer up until now.
He's only just been confronted with the fact that this is his situation right now. So this was the first time he was asked whether he had a lawyer, whether he wanted a lawyer, or whether one should be provided for him.
When he was asked that, he basically, again, looked at us and sort of had a wry smile. And he said, "But don't the Americans -- doesn't everybody say that I have millions of dollars hidden away in Geneva? Why shouldn't I be able to provide a lawyer for myself?" So he didn't have a lawyer. Nor do any of the others today.
O'BRIEN: It's just the beginning of the court proceedings. All right. Christiane Amanpour, thank you again. Your descriptions have been absolutely riveting. We're going to ask you, as you've been doing, to stick around as we continue to watch a videotape from these proceedings of Saddam Hussein and some of the others in the courtroom as well -- Bill.
HEMMER: Let's introduce Tim Hughes now. He's a defense attorney, we are told, for Saddam Hussein by telephone in Amman, Jordan.
Mr. Hughes, if you can hear me, Bill Hemmer, CNN, New York. Your reaction to the proceedings so far today.
TIM HUGHES, MEMBER OF SADDAM'S DEFENSE TEAM: Yes. Well, we've been based in Amman all day today with the other international lawyers that have been approached to provide the team of defenders for Saddam Hussein. We've been restricted to watching television pictures as they've come through the hearing today. Scandalously, he has not been represented today and has not had any prior legal advice before this court appearance.
HEMMER: Let me try to get that word right. Did you say "scandalously?"
HUGHES: I do, because he should have had an opportunity of being advised fully before appearing before a court. That's a fundamental right, and that's been denied.
HEMMER: Based on what you're trying to do for the former Iraqi leader, how did you approach the Iraqi tribunal? How did you approach the coalition going back weeks, or even months ago, about trying to get involvement in something like we're watching today?
HUGHES: Well, he was captured in mid-December of 2003. Since that time, the secretary general of the defense committee, who is Mohammed al-Rashdan, who is based here in Amman, has been contacting the American authorities, demanding that President Hussein be given the right to legal advice, and also requesting that he be given the basic rights under the Geneva Convention (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it. So to answer your question directly, letters have been sent to the American authorities requesting access to him in order to give him legal advice. And those requests have fallen on deaf ears.
HEMMER: OK. Mr. Hughes, a few things, if you could nail down them for us. We are told that Saddam Hussein's wife has hired 20 attorneys on his behalf. Is that true, and are you one of them?
HUGHES: It is true that she approached Mohammed al-Rashdan, who I mentioned a moment ago. He's a lawyer in Amman, and he and Saddam Hussein's wife then decided that the way to approach such a big case was to draw in expertise from around the globe in terms of legal knowledge. And so they have been seeking to appoint members of the team. And there are people from several different countries that have been approached to join that same team.
HEMMER: All right. Now, are you aware now at this point, Mr. Hughes, of the seven preliminary charges?
HUGHES: Well, we are aware of the charges which we were told yesterday that were going to be put. Again...
HEMMER: Well, let -- I tell you, let me go through them, and then I want to get your reaction for how you mount a defense. Invasion of Kuwait 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprising in 1991, political killings, religious killings, and the gassing of the Kurds, that's the details we have in short form for what were read today in court in Baghdad. How will you defend him against these?
HUGHES: Well, there are -- there are two fundamental issues to be approached and tackled and decided upon before we can get to the substantive defense. The first one is that we will be arguing on his behalf that any trial in Baghdad cannot be fair because it will not have the openness and fairness that trials in legal process demands.
And secondly, we will be saying that, in straight Iraqi law, he remains the president of Iraq, because he was overthrown by what we will be describing as an illegal invasion. Therefore, he still has the immunity from prosecution afforded to the sovereign of the Iraqi state. And therefore, the legal proceedings being brought against him are invalid.
HEMMER: So then you will order two things initially, a change of venue, you will also argue that the current power in Iraq from the coalition to the current interim government is not legal. Is that right?
HUGHES: It's not -- it's not legal in our -- in our argument, because the regime was overthrown by an illegitimate invasion.
HEMMER: The current Iraqi president said a few days ago that the death penalty will be reinstated. Now, this had been suspended during the U.S. occupation. Again, as I speak to you on telephone, this is another tape that we're watching with Saddam Hussein.
There were no microphones that had been played for us today, so we're not quite sure, based on the Arab language that was -- that spoken during the proceedings, what is happening now. But as we continue to watch these, your reaction to what the Iraqi president said regarding the death penalty, Mr. Hughes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bill?
HUGHES: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry.
HEMMER: Yes, go ahead. We're still on the air. Go ahead, Mr. Hughes.
HUGHES: Yes. I'm sorry.
The -- the situation today is that we've been gathered in Amman in order to discuss the legal implications of the charges that have been brought, and to underline and emphasize for the world the way in which the stage has been reached today, which is that he has been held in detention since the middle of December without any legal advice, without any family visits, and without proper checks being made at this early stage with regard to his state of health and whether or not he is fit to undergo such legal proceedings. My reaction to what's happened today is limited at this stage in how deeply I can discuss that with you because he wasn't legally represented.
He should have been legally represented. Members of the team should have been there in order to react directly in front of the court. It's a fairly basic human right that somebody appearing in a court of law be represented by a lawyer. And that's been denied so far. We are seeking that that situation be put right without further delay.
HEMMER: All right. Mr. Hughes, one final question. When do you and your team go to Baghdad?
HUGHES: Well, that's another issue which we're trying to deal with at the moment. The primary concern...
HEMMER: I'm sorry, Mr. Hughes, I'm going to have to interrupt you. I apologize.
On the tape now, we do have not only the microphone, but also the English translation through Arabic. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But this is part of the process.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, DEFENDANT (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway -- anyway, why are you worried? I will come again before you with the presence of the lawyers. So why should we act now and then we say that this was hastened and was done quickly and in -- with haste?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is not haste, a decision or action. This is a record for -- minutes for today's session, so we need to have you sign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: It is our understanding, based on the reports we were getting earlier, Soledad, that he was asked to sign a legal brief or a legal paper and he refused to do that. I'm making the -- I'm making the assumption here that that was the point in the 30-minute proceeding when that took place.
O'BRIEN: Exactly. It sounded like that exact point of interchange where he was saying that I'm not going to -- or I don't need to do this now, because I will come back with my lawyers. And at that time, that could happen. He talked about haste, and there was no reason to have haste in these proceedings.
And, again, you could hear, I believe the translation of the what the judge seemed to be saying, which was, we're not taking about haste, we're just talking about the minutes, the records of the minutes of this session, and that's what you would be signing. But as we know now, Saddam Hussein refused to sign those documents.
And -- and clearly, that was a moment...
HEMMER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: ... that we were speaking about a little bit earlier with Christiane Amanpour, who said that was one of the defiant moments. Interesting, and as she pointed out as well, as the proceeding went on, he got more animated. You could see he was pointing his finger more, he was sort of more into and aware of the proceedings. Not quite as laid back as we saw in the first two tapes that had been fed in to us, and that interchange a little bit.
HEMMER: If it appears a bit disjointed today, that's because it is disjointed today. And we are frankly -- we're flying blind here based on the tapes that are coming out, being played by the pool out of Baghdad.
The U.S. military told us this earlier today. They say everything's been cleared by the military. The majority of faces, with the exception here of what appears to be the Iraqi judge and a profile, have been blocked out. We are told there was significant concern for the safety of those involved in those proceedings today.
The military tells us they allowed no microphones in the courtroom. Well, now, that seems to be rebutted now based on what we just heard. And we'll hear it again here in a second.
O'BRIEN: Christiane -- and she said it seemed as if the military camera, she said, did have a microphone, that in fact they were rolling on -- on sound at some point, completely contradicting what we were told by U.S. military sources.
HEMMER: She was -- she told us the combat camera.
O'BRIEN: The combat camera.
HEMMER: Also, the tapes screened by U.S. military, trying to protect the I.D., again, of the court employees working there. We just heard a short clip, what appeared to be the judge asking him to sign this legal paper. Let's listen again to what we just heard three minutes ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, DEFENDANT (through translator): This is -- this the crux of the matter. You levied charges for action carried under the system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without any guarantees that are usually given to the presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then answer -- then answer -- then answer formally, and this will go into the record.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then please allow me not to sign anything until the lawyers are present. I talk for myself. I speak for myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You are a defendant. But guarantees -- but this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway -- and anyway, why are you worried? I will come again before you with the presence of the lawyers. So why should we act now, and then we say that this was hastened and was done quickly and in -- with haste.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is not haste, a decision or action. This is a record for -- minutes for today's meeting -- session. So we need to have you sign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: That was the brief audio portion that we've heard so far today.
Tim Hughes is an attorney for Saddam Hussein, now in Amman, Jordan. We interrupted you earlier. Mr. Hughes, if you're back with us again, the final question that I had for you, when will you go to Baghdad? What's your understanding about when that trip will take place?
HUGHES: Well, no member of the legal team will be prepared to go to Baghdad before full and detailed assurances are given on the issues of safety and security for the legal advisers. And the legal team is working on that very issue today. And it's hoped that we will be able to arrange a visit sooner rather than later.
As of yet, I have no firm date for you. Those of us who are from different countries are looking for assistance and reassurances from our own embassies before we travel to Iraq.
HEMMER: Understood. Mr. Hughes, is that days? Is that weeks? Is that months?
HUGHES: Impossible to say at this stage.
OK.
HUGHES: I would not anticipate that it would be months, though.
HEMMER: Tim Hughes, defense attorney in Amman, Jordan, representing Saddam Hussein -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Let's take you back to Christiane Amanpour. She's been reporting on this all morning. She was one of the few journalists who were allowed inside the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein. And, of course, you're watching the tape now. This is the third tape that we've had an opportunity to turn around and show to you.
Christiane, there's been lots of questions about whether or not there would be sound, there would be audio. We've seen a lot of videotape with no audio, and then suddenly the certain interchange and exchange with the judge over the debate about signing that legal document. We heard some of the audio with the translator's voice on it. Can you clear up some of this confusion for us?
AMANPOUR: Well, I have to tell you, it is confusing. And I am now beginning to get trouble that we don't have the correct transcript yet. And we need to have that transcript, even if they don't want to release the formal audio, because the judge apparently has said he doesn't want to release it.
But until we get the full, formal transcript written down from any tape or any microphone that was in there, it's very hard to keep talking to you about what he said and what wasn't said. Because I can tell you a few of the things that we were told while we were in there, but I cannot tell you all the -- all the back and forth, all the legalities, all the questions and answers. And that, right now, we're just telling you what we were told briefly in terms of paraphrasing the direct quotes that we can tell you about, which is his name and the fact that he wouldn't sign the paper. But we're -- we're asking here now, please, to have this sound somehow provided so that a transcript can be made, so that this can be accurately reflected on the record.
O'BRIEN: But clearly, you were right when you told us earlier that, in fact, they were recording the sound. We were told by some U.S. senior military officials that, no, there was no sound being recorded at all. And you said, no, in fact, the combat camera was recording sound.
Well, certainly, when we heard just moments ago some sound inside the courtroom, you were proved right on that point. And there was some confusion on the military's point about whether or not their camera had sound. But certainly it will be interesting to get those final transcripts. Obviously, a translation done on the fly is not quite as useful or as helpful as one that's done a little more deeply.
Let's talk a little bit more about the demeanor. We're now seeing in this third tape a big change. When we first started seeing the first tape, Saddam Hussein appeared much more calm and much more confused, as you described originally. And now, much more animated, annoyed.
You can see him pointing his finger more often. His eyes sort of bulging as he's trying to make a point to the judge at times. Is that essentially how the proceeding went?
AMANPOUR: Yes. He -- as I described it, he came in looking fairly bemused by what was going on. And it was only after he sort of warmed up and the questions kept going back and forth between him and the judge that he then started to get more animated, more persistent, wanted to know what was going on, asking various questions, objecting to various things the judge was telling him.
The judge would then be explaining. The judge spoke a lot. A great deal was spoken by the judge. And Saddam would keep saying, "Please," when he wanted to interrupt, and then put his point forward. But we really are trying to seek this formal proper transcript so that we can get the actual full translation of what went on in there.
O'BRIEN: We're waiting for the -- to rerun this -- what we've been calling the third tape. And, in fact, you're looking at it now. A little more animated Saddam Hussein.
And, again, you could hear audio sound on this tape. It's in Arabic, because we have not gotten the translation, or the interpreter's voice on that tape yet. But these are sort of the -- probably the most animated pictures that we have seen so far. Let's listen in just for one second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING ARABIC).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: It's interesting, again, to watch Saddam Hussein. I mean, obviously, we here do not exactly what is being said. But to just watch his facial reactions as he responds to the back-and-forth by the judge.
Let's go to Octavia Nasr. She's in Atlanta for us. Of course of CNNI.
Octavia, let's get a little analysis on all of this. Give me a sense -- and I don't know how much of the tape you've been able to hear -- of the tone of the back-and-forth exchange between Saddam Hussein and the judge. Is it respectful? Is it rude? How would you describe it?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, before I get to that, Soledad, I believe it's important to say I just heard this last sound bite that we played in Arabic. This is the part where he's talking about Halabja.
And if you recall, Christiane Amanpour, was in the courtroom earlier today, she told us what was said about Halabja. When he was questioned about the massacres -- this is when Saddam Hussein is believed to have gassed the Kurds in Halabja -- he said, "I heard about it in the media, just like you did."
Let's listen to the tape, and listen to it with translation this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "See, this was done under Saddam Hussein when he was president of Iraq. And then you're talking about the military forces going to Kuwait, right? How can you charge me with anything without protecting my rights under the constitution?"
"This is not right. This is the bulk of our conversation of this subject. Are you charging the president, Saddam Hussein?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "This is just a procedure," the judge says. "These are minutes, and you would need to sign the paper."
HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "Right. If you allow me to just tell you that, you know, we will come back, I will come back with my lawyer. Now, I'm speaking on my own behalf. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "These are the procedures. You don't need a lawyer for this. If you could just sign."
HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "No, I will come back with my lawyers. There's nothing to worry about. I'll come back with my lawyers. We don't want to do things in a hurry here"
O'BRIEN: Octavia, let me ask you a question about that. This is an interchange that we've talked about a little bit earlier, Saddam Hussein refusing to sign some legal documents. When Iraqis see this -- this videotape, and they see a fairly defiant Saddam Hussein -- he's not pliable, he's saying, no, I want my attorney present -- how do you think this will play?
NASR: Well, it's already playing very strongly. By watching Arab media, you can get a sense of where this is going to go.
There was a lot of anticipation to see Saddam Hussein, let alone to hear him. And, as you say, in a very defiant way. Now they saw him, the Iraqi people saw him, the whole world saw the human in Saddam Hussein. And this is, I think, what's getting a lot of attention on Arab media and in Arab streets.
This is -- this doesn't look anything like the man that they've used for so many years, the well groomed, with his eyebrows tweezed and his moustache dyed, nicely dressed all the time, very -- very much into his appearance. This is someone who paid so much attention to his appearance.
So to see him looking like this is -- is sending out already a very interesting message. People are paying attention to his looks. If -- if it was by choice that Saddam Hussein decided to keep his beard on, which is widely believed to be the case, this is very Arabic.
This is an Arabic trait, the beard. Usually men will let their beard grow in -- when they're going through a depression or when they're going through mourning or a distressful situation. So already, by appearing the way he does, he's sending a message that he's in mourning, that he -- he is sort of saddened by what's going on.
People are going to pay attention to what he says. The defiance is -- sounds like something that's very well calculated.
Experts already on Arab media listening to this, and watching this tape, are already saying that he's sending out a message that he's not going to give up, that he's not going to be an underdog. That he is -- in his own mind, he's still the president of Iraq, no one is going to be able to take that away from him.
Arab media are stressing, for example, sentences that he exchanged with the judge, sentences like, "I am insisting on my president title out of respect for the people who elected me." This is going to play pretty strongly in Iraq.
Now, we heard earlier some anti-Saddam reaction and some pro- Saddam reaction. So we have to be clear that there is still, even though it's a small group of people in Iraq, but there is a group that supports this man and will be paying attention to what he's saying and will be reacting accordingly.
Another thing that Arab media are picking on, his sentence saying, the -- "How can you charge me with anything while Iraq is under occupation?" So in his mind he still believes Iraq is under occupation.
Analysts on Arab media are not sure if he's saying this because he is out of the loop, that he's not informed, that there was a handover on the 28th, or whether he's just saying that because, even with the handover, he believes that this government, this Iraqi transitional government is an illegal government, which is something that's -- that his lawyers are saying. And you heard his lawyer earlier on the show from Amman, Jordan, saying the same thing, that this is an illegal government, and it doesn't have the right to try the -- the former leader -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Octavia Nasr of CNNI joining us with some terrific analysis of what the Iraqis are thinking as they -- as they see these images and hear the -- hear the words of Saddam Hussein. Octavia, thanks. We're going to continue to check in with you throughout the morning, if that's OK.
HEMMER: Absolutely fascinating, don't you think?
O'BRIEN: I think so, yes.
HEMMER: And you also wonder, too, the reaction from the Iraqi people hearing his voice again, because they will hear his voice after this tape is out and distributed throughout that country, and throughout the Arab world, for that matter, as well.
Good morning again, everyone. If you're just with us, Soledad O'Brien, Bill Hemmer here in New York City on AMERICAN MORNING. About 9:33 now in New York.
Our main story, and for that matter, our only story so far today has been Saddam Hussein, the man who covered Iraq with monuments to himself. Now the Iraqi people are seeing Saddam Hussein again for the first time in seven months. And they see him as a prisoner sitting before a judge. The former dictator's first court appearance coming a little more than two hours ago in this videotape we're watching now coming to us here throughout the morning.
CNN's Christiane Amanpour was inside the courtroom, provided a very detailed description of today's session. Seven preliminary charges read against the former dictator. Saddam Hussein refusing to sign the court documents, saying he has the -- he is the rightful president, rather, of Iraq, calling all of this "theater." At one point he said, the real criminal is Bush, meaning the U.S. president.
O'BRIEN: Let's take you back to Hassan Mneimneh. He is among those who are working on documentation to prove the guilt of Saddam Hussein and others. He is with the Iraq Memory Foundation. He joins us live once again from Washington, D.C.
Specifically, spell out for me what you are doing to -- to help the tribunal as they get under way. Are you filtering documents to them? Are you sending witnesses to them? What exactly is your role?
HASSAN MNEIMNEH, IRAQ MEMORY FOUNDATION: The role has not been formal formalized yet. We do not have an agreement yet. We just had conversations with the tribunal about our potential role.
We are in the process, nonetheless, of collecting a tremendous amount of documents, and we're seeking even more. And we're also, on another front, indeed have started the process of collecting witness testimonies in our oral history project. So both components will ultimately feed, meaning this -- this would just be a partial result of our work we feed into the work of the -- the special tribunal. I mean...
O'BRIEN: I'm sorry for interrupting. Please continue.
MNEIMNEH: No, I was saying that -- but, I mean, clearly, what's going to happen is basically a contest between rhetoric and evidence. And it is meaning our function is to help support the evidence component by providing as much of it as possible.
I have to point here that both, meaning both rhetoric and evidence, benefit from further exposure. The benefit of evidence is clear. Basically, the case will be made, facts will be made available to the public. And therefore, the public will be able to judge for itself.
At the rhetoric front, the more the rhetoric is exposed, the weaker it is. Just listening at the -- the short -- the short segment in which Saddam speaks, indeed there is defiance in what he's saying. I mean, I could -- I could hear that. But the delivery, there's really a discrepancy here between, if you like, form and function.
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) Saddam appears rather weak, rather meek in terms of his attitude. This is not the verbally defiant Saddam that -- that delivers fiery speeches. This is more someone asking for permission, asking for basically certain allowance. And that way, in a certain sense, this underlines the point that I was making before, that it is so important to keep this process as transparent as possible. Ultimately, the merits of the case will make it possible for -- for a conviction to be accepted by the public.
O'BRIEN: The big problem, of course, is, as many people have pointed out, in any kind of tribunal, in any kind of trial, is going to be security. How do you protect -- I'll call them your witnesses, but of course they're not yours. But I'm sure people who have had interaction with you to get their stories on the record, how do you protect those witnesses who are going to coming forward in a place that could truly be one of the least safe places in the world right now?
MNEIMNEH: This is clearly an issue that -- that goes far beyond our -- if you like, our ability. But what I can point to is -- is the following. Indeed, we, in the potential list of participants in our oral history program, we are indeed extremely concerned about security. And therefore, I mean, we have to keep in mind, on the other hand, that there is many -- actually millions of Iraqis who are not currently in Iraq. They are outside. And many of those have suffered tremendous hardships under the Saddam regime.
And therefore, at least for the time being, maybe our focus would be clearly on a combination. But our focus would be on collecting that evidence, that with the testimonies of people who are not under, meaning a direct threat by potential supporters of Saddam Hussein within -- within Iraq.
O'BRIEN: Hassan Mneimneh of the Iraq Memory Foundation, joining us this morning, talking a little bit about what a trial in the future could mean. Thank you for being with us. Thanks for sticking around with us all morning. And we're going to ask you, if we may, to continue to stick around as we watch this.
This is now the fourth tape that we've fed. Although it looks very similar to some of the earlier tapes as we get the pictures in from -- from Baghdad of Saddam Hussein as he appears before the court proceedings.
HEMMER: And the first chance we have seen the former dictator since December of last year, 2003. Seven months of captivity to date, going back to mid-December. He is now a criminal defendant.
This is our understanding of what's happening in Baghdad as we watch this videotape. Eleven others scheduled to appear before an Iraqi judge today, including Chemical Ali, otherwise known as Ali Hassan Al-Majid, for his role, alleged role in the gassing of the Kurds in 1988. Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz also to face a judge today. And the former vice president, Taha Yassin Ramadan.
So a group of 12 go today, including Saddam Hussein, who was first on that list. That trial, however, may not take place for months. Some are suggesting years. No trial, we're told, though, before 2005 gets under way.
Who testifies against him? What type of chance are these people taking? And a concern also, too, given about the witnesses who will appear.
The first Arab dictator to face a trial. How do Iraqis react? How do the Arab world react after this? All questions that will be answered in the weeks and months and possibly years to come.
We do have some audio from the 30-minute proceeding today that has been translated, not only into English, but also the microphone is actually on and transmitted to us. We played that for you about 20 minutes ago. This is the -- the -- the time of the proceeding when Saddam Hussein was asked to sign some sort of legal brief or legal paper. It's our understanding he refused to get that as well, get that signature on paper as well.
Let's go back a little bit. It runs about two and a half minutes in length. And let's listen. Saddam Hussein in court earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the norms of the legal session will not (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Please allow me. The seventh charge against Saddam Hussein was against the president of Iraq, as the commander of chief of the army.
The army went to Kuwait. OK? Then it was an official matter.
So how come a charge will be levied against somebody, an official who is doing -- carrying out their duties? How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued? These are -- these are rights guaranteed by constitution.
This is the crux of the matter. You levy charges for acts that happened under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein. But without guarantees of the presidency. How can that happen from a legal standpoint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you answer those charges. These are only charges. You have the right to answer them. Officially, just go ahead and answer.
Tell us your story. Tell us your side. Answer them. We need to enter that into the minutes of this session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then please allow me -- allow me not to sign until I get -- until the lawyers are present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But these minutes have to be signed.
HUSSEIN (through translator): I talk about -- I speak for myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The guarantees need to be signed. This needs to be signed. But this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway, you are going to summon me again before you, and then -- and then the papers will be reviewed in the presence of lawyers. So why should we act in -- hastily, and then we commit a -- make a mistake? Then...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, there's no hasty decision-making here. You have the right to -- to sign. You do have to sign. This is -- these are the minutes of the session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, I will sign only when the lawyers are present.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: That is the audio that has been translated to date. We expect more. And if we get more, we'll certainly give it to you.
Security (ph) air time for this proceeding today lasted about 30 minutes for Saddam Hussein. Christiane Amanpour earlier today described him as thin, as tired, as defeated, as confused. We also, though, hear in his voice a tone of defiance, a tone of coherence as well, saying quite clearly, I'm not going to do anything until I get a lawyer here. We can come back and do this at a later time. There's no rush.
It seemed to be the indication from Saddam Hussein based on that translation. So that's what we know now.
O'BRIEN: Interesting to hear from Octavia Nasr, saying that how that will play in the Arab media, that he is clearly telegraphing to his supporters that he's not defeated, that he actually, you know, is coming out fairly strongly.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You can see it in his eyes. He's absolutely focused. You know, he's, to a degree, running things in that courtroom. I mean, it doesn't look like he's lost a step to me.
The viewers are having a varied and fascinating responses. I mean, this is a -- this is a hell of a story. You see this once in a lifetime.
Bob in Boynton Beach, Florida, writes this: "We're told these court proceedings are conducted by and under control of Iraq, but we're being told 'U.S. military won't allow microphones in court.' This sounds like the U.S. is in charge. It makes the whole thing sound like the court is a U.S. puppet."
Sean in Greenville, North Carolina, "Thanks for bringing up the silliness of this trial. I'm stunned to see American journalists getting so excited about a trial where the court officials have their faces hidden from public view and the defendant has no lawyer."
Rob in Cape Town, South Africa, "Saddam arguing his defense, utterly stupid, needlessly expensive, and time-consuming. All that needs to have occurred was to have Saddam Hussein present while a public notice was read out listing his crimes against the people of Iraq and humanity. Following the reading, he should have been taken out and shot by a firing squad."
And David in Port Charlotte, Florida, "This is an outrage," he writes. "Once again, the powers that be have censored us again. The release of the Saddam Hussein tape without sound is a joke. We have spent billions in taxpayer dollars in this country. We have bought the right to see and hear the proceedings as they occur." So all kinds of reactions from people. But you can't -- it's one of those things you can't take your eyes off of. You know? Even without the sound.
Just the pictures of this man sitting there facing some of his peers, and people that he oppressed for so long, it's riveting stuff. And Christiane and the CNN crew have just done a tremendous job.
HEMMER: Dynamite. Dynamite.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: To hear her describe the guards' reactions, I mean, to hear they are escorting him in, or in some cases picking him up out of the chair, you know, the leader, the dictator of their country for 30 years, I mean, it's amazing.
HEMMER: Yes. I think you touched on something, though, there. When the Iraqi people hear his voice again -- it was at the end of the war, the last time they ever heard any sort of communication from him -- when they hear is voice again, for those who have been scared for decades, how will they respond?
CAFFERTY: Plus, contrast the video we're looking at here this morning with that -- with that video that we've seen so many time of them picking lice out of his hair and shining a flashlight in his mouth, and -- and, you know, looking like somebody that they dragged out of a homeless shelter. I mean, the guy has obviously gotten himself back together. And probably -- there it is, these pictures.
Look at the difference. And how much more intimidating and frightening it must be to the ordinary people in Iraq to see not these pictures, where he looks helpless, but the pictures we're looking at this morning, when he marched into court and sat down and seemed very much in control. I mean, quite a contrast there.
HEMMER: There will be comparisons throughout this, fair or not...
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: ... with the trial of Slobodan Milosevic...
CAFFERTY: Absolutely.
HEMMER: ... and the defiance he brought to the world court in The Hague. And Christiane Amanpour covered that very intently. She's back with us, live in Baghdad.
Christiane, a quick question to you about -- about what we're picking up. Based on his eyes and his facial expressions -- and he appears rather coherent, especially when he says I will not sign that piece of paper, I'll come back another time, we're in no hurry, I'll bring an attorney next time. Did you pick up on that as well?
AMANPOUR: Yes, there was no question that he was coherent. And there are no questions that his eyes were bright and that he was focused.
As I described, he came in looking fairly like he didn't know what he was doing or why he was there, looking a little bit surprised, looking a little bit down. And as the discussion proceeded with the judge, he became more and more animated about what was going on.
Just a couple more quotes. But again, you know, we are -- until we get a formal transcript from the sound tape, it's something of a disadvantage in terms of direct quotes. But the judge apparently told him at one point, "This is just an investigation, not a trial." Saddam Hussein said, "You represent the people. Remember that you're a judge. Don't talk about the occupation."
He said, "I have a right to lawyers." And the judge at one point said, "If you would just give me 10 minutes, I would explain you your rights. You have a right to know what this is and what is happening."
Saddam Hussein said, "I didn't practice law. But I am a man who understands the law." And the judge said, "You have a right to know what's going on. I am not judging you. I'm an investigator."
Saddam Hussein apparently said, "The Americans can try Saddam under the Geneva Conventions. How is it, though, that an Iraqi judge is judging me under the Geneva Conventions?"
Well, he is no longer protected under the Geneva Conventions, and he was told that yesterday. So I'm not sure whether there's confusion in his mind. He's no longer a POW. He's no longer protected by the Geneva Conventions. He's now in Iraqi custody and under their legal system.
At one point he said, "I don't want to embarrass you." And he looked around, and he said, "I don't want to embarrass you and everyone here, but everyone here knows that this is a theater by Bush, the criminal, to win the elections, to say that this is what the people of Iraq want, a free Iraq."
Then, again, he said to the judge, "You are a judge bringing these accusations in this session." He started talking about the constitution. And then what we've been talking about, the situation where he didn't want to sign, the fact that he had been read his rights, the official sort of minutes of the proceedings there. He said, "I won't do that. I'll come back again with lawyers."
O'BRIEN: Christiane, it's Soledad. A curious question for you that -- that one of the viewers actually raised to Jack in an e-mail. What was the theory behind limiting or not allowing the audiotape to be released of the proceedings? What were they trying -- what are they trying to control exactly?
AMANPOUR: Well, we're told that it was the Iraqi judge who didn't want the audio out because of various matters. First, we were told security. Then we were told maybe because he was worried that -- that there might be some kind of outburst or things might get out of control. And nobody really knew what to expect when he came in. There were only two guards inside. But obviously there were lots of guards, American soldiers at the ready outside. So I think it was partly cautious.
As I say, we are trying to press this audio issue, because we can't really, you know, provide you a coherent direct quotation. We can just provide you snippets based on what we've picked up at that time. But even if -- well, we're still trying to resolve that issue. But at the moment, we're being told that that is -- that is the case, that the Iraqi judge doesn't want that audio out, and that it's not -- it's not meant to be played.
HEMMER: Christiane, Jeff Toobin is back with us as well. And by my watch, it's been about three hours since this proceeding wrapped. Why the delay in the transcript is beyond us. But we'll be patient.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Christiane, I wanted to ask you, I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but I've been very struck by the book to the left of the judge, an -- what appears to be some sort of Arabic law book, which seems to me put there not coincidentally to show that this is an Iraqi legal proceeding, not an American proceeding. But how much do you have a sense -- I know you've spoken to the American legal advisers, to the tribunal. How much will this be a genuinely Iraqi legal production, and how much will the Americans be pulling the strings behind the scenes?
AMANPOUR: Well, it's interesting you mentioned those books. I saw them, too. There was two small books that the Iraqi judge was consulting.
Mostly, I saw it before Saddam Hussein came in. And I couldn't get anybody to tell me what those books are. But I'm sure you're probably right, that they are some kind of legal books. He also had in front of him folders, and beside him, to the other side, on his right-hand side, folders that were closed.
In terms of what kind of process it's going to be, we're told that it is an Iraqi process, the trial process. But it will have -- it will adhere to certain international norms. And the Department of Justice people who are here, the attorneys who have come and who are experienced in these kinds of crimes, certainly in gathering the evidence for war crimes and other such things, they are giving advice.
They have an office here that's called Former Regime Crimes Liaison Office. That's what the Americans have set up here. And that is advising, helping the Iraqi justice, in terms of the special tribunal, how to proceed with this.
TOOBIN: And I know that one of the people leading it is a former assistant U.S. attorney from Tampa. You have FBI agents there. This is a -- it's such -- such a peculiar hybrids. And our government wants this to be an -- wants this to be an Iraqi proceeding, yet wants it -- wants the evidence to be there. And we're really the only position -- the only people in a position to gather the evidence at this point. There really is no infrastructure to do that in the Iraqi justice system. AMANPOUR: Well, you know, without -- again, I'm not an expert on the Iraqi legal system. But you can -- you know that in the past a court procedure was basically a kangaroo court. It was -- it was not done in -- in accordance with the kind of legal international regulations that certainly western democracies would have in their own systems.
It was very much, you're accused, you're tried, you're, you know, you're convicted and punished, and basically that's that. So there isn't a whole lot of experience over the last three decades of the kinds of trials and the kind of system here in Iraq that needs to be in place for this one.
And that's why they are having help and advice from outside, and not just American, but other -- other countries also are helping. It puts some of the other countries, like the European countries, in a bit of a tricky position, because since the death penalty will be the maximum punishment, and since the Europeans have signed the convention against the death penalty, it puts them in a bit of a tricky position in terms of how much they can actually assist and just how far their -- their cooperation on this -- on this matter can be.
But, of course, in America, and many states, there is the death penalty. And therefore, it's easier for American lawyers. And because obviously this is an American-led process, as the occupation was, there's still a lot of American advisers in many -- in many branches of government here and this particular legal process. And they're trying to make it a trial that will stand up and stand the test of international scrutiny.
HEMMER: Jeff Toobin, thanks again for your help today, and your insights. I think, from a legal sense, it's been fascinating for you as well.
TOOBIN: And we're just starting.
HEMMER: That's true.
TOOBIN: I mean, there's just so much to go. And this is going to be such an extraordinary experience for the international legal system.
HEMMER: Yes.
A few things that we've picked up on over the 30-minute proceeding based on what Christiane's reporting, one of the only reporters inside that courtroom earlier today. When asked if he could afford a lawyer, Saddam responded, "The Americans say I have millions hidden in Switzerland. How can I not have the money to pay for one?" Meaning an attorney.
He refused to recognize the invasion of Kuwait in August of 1990, saying, "How could you say that we invaded Kuwait? I did this for the Iraqi people. How could you defend these dogs?" Again, referring to the Kuwaiti people. The Iraqi judge at that time reprimanded him, saying that language unacceptable in this courtroom. And one other quote from the former Iraqi leader, "I'm elected by the people of Iraq. The occupation cannot take that right away from me." Part of what was spoken today.
O'BRIEN: And let's head back out just for a moment to Christiane Amanpour, of course, who was in the courtroom for these proceedings.
It was interesting, Christiane, to hear from Octavia Nasr, who was doing some analysis for us, where she said that just the vision of Saddam Hussein, with a beard, sends sort of a human message to maybe his supporters, maybe all Iraqis as well. But it was an interesting message. What do you think the message of his appearance and his demeanor and his shaking of the finger and his defiance, what do -- what do you think that message is to Iraqis?
AMANPOUR: Well, look, I don't know. I can't get inside his head. I was surprised that he did have a beard, because we were told before he came in that he would be clean-shaven except for a moustache. But he did have the beard on, and he did not have that when he was president.
I was frankly surprised by his look. He was much thinner. We're told he's lost 12 pounds. We're told that he's in good health otherwise.
But in terms of the way he was gesticulating and the way was -- his demeanor, you know, it was sort of Saddam-like. I mean, it was the familiar gesticulations, the sort of leaning back sideways in the chair, sort of talking to the judge. But, of course, it was -- it was him in a subservient position.
He was no longer in charge. Although he seemed to think that he should be, in terms of maybe not be in charge, but certainly be treated as a president. He kept saying that.
He kept talking about the constitution and how he's elected by the people, and that he was still the president and should be tried as the president if "all of these things that you're talking about is when I was president." That was a very repetitive theme during his back-and-forth with the judge.
We've heard, and I've heard from people who say they've heard from the debriefers, that, you know, at the beginning, he talked perhaps, you know, a fair amount to the interrogators when he was first captured. But that subsequently clammed up. He didn't talk so much over the last few, maybe couple of months, few weeks.
And it was told to me that he had known about the insurgency that was going on. Perhaps he thought that that was still some hope that he would be sprung, that this situation would fail, and that somehow he would come back to power.
In terms of a message, I think he was just telling the judge what he thought should be afforded to him. Still, he said, "I'm the president of Iraq." O'BRIEN: Christiane Amanpour, really truly remarkable reporting for us this morning. We appreciate it, starting at 7:00 in the morning, when the proceedings began. A fascinating description of what went on in that courtroom.
Christiane, we thank you very much. And, of course, we'll check in with you again tomorrow as we do the follow-up on this story. Thanks.
HEMMER: Countless opinions on this issue.
O'BRIEN: I'm sure.
HEMMER: Back to Jack as we close out our morning.
CAFFERTY: Touching a whole lot of feelings and emotions among viewers. And I picked three here to kind of wrap up our morning with that -- that are particularly poignant, I thought.
Tim in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Maryland, "The rest of the Arab dictators, after seeing Saddam Hussein in court today, must realize how fragile their actual hold on power is."
Norman writes, "Although I know the Iraqi dictator is a mass murderer and deserves the severest punishment, I'm wondering about the timing and legitimacy of this so-called trial. How could an interim government handpicked by an occupier be a legitimate legal authority with the power of life and death over it citizens?
And Eduardo in Sacramento, California, writes, "There are many serious questions not being asked. Who's the judge? Who elected or appointed him? Under whose authority? Was he appointed by Paul Bremer?"
"Both the court and trial should be examples of unquestionable judicial legitimacy. Are they?"
O'BRIEN: Many questions also involving the timing. I mean, why is this the first thing that this new government takes on, when security obviously is a much more pressing issue, and a much more difficult issue probably to fix in any way, shape or form. But this is certainly symbolic. It's important emotionally to Iraqis. And one has to imagine that was a very big reason why we are seeing Saddam Hussein on TV today.
CAFFERTY: And let's remember, it is an election year here in the United States.
O'BRIEN: As he pointed out -- Saddam Hussein pointed out to the judge, that one reason that he was there is that President Bush wanted to be reelected, so he said.
HEMMER: Throughout the day, as you stay with us here on CNN, you're going to see more videotape, not just of Saddam Hussein, but also possibly 11 others now who face an Iraqi judge. Saddam Hussein was the first in line, essentially. We do anticipate throughout the day Tariq Aziz; the man known as Chemical Ali as well; the former vice president, Taha Yassin Ramadan, as well. So as we go throughout the day, look for more images out of Baghdad.
CAFFERTY: They're going to be playing a little let's make a deal over there, I have a hunch.
O'BRIEN: Eleven others? Absolutely. No question.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: We will wait to see when we see him again. But for today, that's what we have. It's been history. We'll see where we go.
Nice to be with the three of you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you.
CAFFERTY: Always a pleasure.
O'BRIEN: And let's head out...
HEMMER: The three of you being...
O'BRIEN: ... right now to Carol Lin...
HEMMER: You got it.
O'BRIEN: ... who is in Atlanta.
HEMMER: Good morning, Carol.
O'BRIEN: She's going to take you through the next several hours.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 1, 2004 - 9:00 Â ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Here at 9:00 in New York City. We want to welcome you if you're just joining us here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Let's reset for a moment here. The images you're seeing are your screen are the first images we have seen of the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein facing an Iraqi judge earlier today. Seven preliminary charges read against him.
Charges ranging from the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shi'ite uprising in 1991. That was immediately after the first Persian Gulf War. Political killings, religious killings and the gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
Seven preliminary charges. Saddam Hussein one of 12 today to face an Iraqi judge. The other 11 proceedings, we understand, are still on the way. The status of those proceedings are not quite clear, but we do know a handful of those who will be facing a judge today, including Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister, and Chemical Ali, the man known and accused widely for his alleged involvement with the gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
Good morning. And welcome back here to AMERICAN MORNING.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We've been talking to Christiane Amanpour, who was one of the very few reporters who were allowed in -- who were allowed inside that court proceeding. And her description truly has been fascinating, saying that the -- Saddam Hussein twice told the judge that he was Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq. She described him as thin and tired and defeated. And he was advised of his right to have counsel.
She also described him at times as a little bit confused and a little bit combative. And, again, while you're looking at this videotape of these proceedings, there is no audiotape. The U.S. military saying that they allowed no mics in the courtroom, and that they, in fact, also screened that tape to protect the identity of court employees and -- and security personnel who did not want their faces to appear on camera. And, again, that comes from U.S. military sources.
Let's take you right back to Christiane Amanpour, who has been following this all morning.
The proceedings started just about 700 a.m. Eastern Time, Christiane. Give me a sense of how quickly you think all of this is going to have an impact on -- on Iraqis and the Arab community. I mean, obviously, we're all looking at these first pictures coming out right now. What do you think happens next?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's obviously going to be a matter of great fascination for Iraqis. Even yesterday people were, you know, in a -- in a state of quite serious satisfaction when they knew that he had been handed over legally. And now to see these first pictures, which are coming out now, I mean, we were in the court room, so we saw them about -- we saw him about three hours ago. And he came in looking really, really a shadow of his former self.
You know, the image of Saddam Hussein is a man in military fatigues, pinning medals on, firing guns, smoking cigars, face on every mural, dressed in all sorts of different outfits, whether it be a Bedouin sheikh, or a field marshal or whatever it is, a business suit. Now, he's dressed in mismatched civilian clothes, a gray suit jacket, very nicely ironed, a starched white shirt, pressed brown trousers, with a belt and some brown -- black shoes that were very highly polished. But not what we're used to. And especially for the people inside the court, the Iraqis, who were just glued to this process.
A member of the new Iraqi government, Muwaffaq al-Rubaie, also Salem Chalabi, the executive director of this special tribunal, there were representatives from the prime minister and the deputy prime minister's office, and there were a few of their assistants. And their assistants were almost still shaking in their boots before Saddam came in.
They had no idea what to expect. Would it still be the strong man? Would he look at them and recognize them and one day get them again? I mean, really, it was that kind of situation.
The guards did not want to be shown. But they came in, you know, clearly proud to be guarding him and bringing him in, into this court of justice. The court reporters, two young men, Iraqi men, were busy scribbling all the notes as the judge told them to take the notes and the minutes of what was going on and put for the record the formalities that needed to go on the record.
You know, people were just amazed. And he comes in, and he's fairly thin, and he's got this much, much better beard than he did when he came out of that hole. But still, a beard. People had been used to just seeing him with a moustache.
He had big bags under his eyes. His face was very dark and his voice was very hoarse. And as I said, at the beginning of the procedure, he really didn't look at ease, he didn't look defiant. He just looked there, resigned, a little bit defeated.
And it was only as the process went on and the judge and he were exchanging conversation, comments, questions and answers for about 30 minutes, that he occasionally became much more robust, much more agitated, would sort of jab his finger at the judge, occasionally look at us, the observers. There was two unilaterally -- two unilateral independent reporters. I was one of them. There was a pool reporter and two (through translator): s. But we couldn't have loud or simultaneous translations, so we just got the basics in our ear. And now that process is formally under way. The (through translator): s are writing the transcript, and soon that will be out.
And then -- and then the charges were read against him after he was first asked his name. And then, you know, when he was asked his name and "Saddam Hussein, I am president of Iraq." Twice he said, "I am Saddam Hussein, president of Iraq." You know, people got a shock, because he's not president of Iraq. But he thinks that still.
And he asked the judge at the end, "Why am I being tried in this manner? The occupation didn't end my presidency. I'm still elected by the people of Iraq."
I mean, there's still an element of denial and some delusion going on here. And he was informed by the judge that under the Geneva Convention, the occupation, the occupying powers could strip him of his presidency. He was a prisoner of war. And now he was a suspect, accused in an Iraqi legal court. And that was that.
He refused to sign the statement saying that he had been read his rights, saying that he understood what was going on. He refused to sign the statement that he could request a lawyer. He said, "I won't do any signing until I have a lawyer present." The judge said, "Fine. On behalf of the court, then, I sign the fact that you have been read your rights."
At that point, Saddam said, "Is this finished?" The judge said, "Yes." And in Arabic, Saddam said, "Halas," which means finished, the end.
And he got up and he was a little unsteady. And one guard put his arm, you know, through his arm and really sort of supported him. The other guard you could see didn't know quite what to do. You know, this was still Saddam Hussein. And the guard sort of just kind of stood next to him, and they walked out. But afterwards, when we asked the guards outside what they thought, I mean, there were a lot of thumbs up and people saying that they were happy.
So an extraordinarily reversal of fortune, I suppose, is the understatement of -- of what I can say here. Those people who had been so brutalized by him are now guarding him, and basically the legal process will now define his fate.
He was read those seven charges involving killing of religious and political figures, involving gassing the Kurds, the invasion of -- of Kuwait. He was very, very animated about the Kuwait issue. He refused to accept that he could have invaded Kuwait. This was simply not -- nothing could convince him that he was being accused of invading Kuwait.
And said -- he said to the judge, "How could you, as an Iraqi, talk like this about invasion? I did that to defend the rights of the Iraqi people from those dogs." He called the Kuwaitis dogs, at which point the judge said, "Don't use words like that. This is a court of law. And those words are not permitted. Such language is not permitted in a court of law." So that was that, basically.
O'BRIEN: Christiane, earlier, Jeff Toobin described these proceeding. He sort of said for -- in American terms, it would be essentially kind of like an arraignment. And there have been some questions from viewers about, well, if this is -- is a legal proceeding, why does Saddam Hussein not have an attorney either appointed to him or next to him in the courtroom?
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, I'm not a legal expert, and I'm sure Jeffrey Toobin can tell you more about the -- the defense counsel activities in various stages of the legal process. But what we were told is that this is his first introduction to the fact that he is in Iraqi legal hands in the Iraqi criminal system here. And, therefore, he has not asked for a lawyer up until now.
He's only just been confronted with the fact that this is his situation right now. So this was the first time he was asked whether he had a lawyer, whether he wanted a lawyer, or whether one should be provided for him.
When he was asked that, he basically, again, looked at us and sort of had a wry smile. And he said, "But don't the Americans -- doesn't everybody say that I have millions of dollars hidden away in Geneva? Why shouldn't I be able to provide a lawyer for myself?" So he didn't have a lawyer. Nor do any of the others today.
O'BRIEN: It's just the beginning of the court proceedings. All right. Christiane Amanpour, thank you again. Your descriptions have been absolutely riveting. We're going to ask you, as you've been doing, to stick around as we continue to watch a videotape from these proceedings of Saddam Hussein and some of the others in the courtroom as well -- Bill.
HEMMER: Let's introduce Tim Hughes now. He's a defense attorney, we are told, for Saddam Hussein by telephone in Amman, Jordan.
Mr. Hughes, if you can hear me, Bill Hemmer, CNN, New York. Your reaction to the proceedings so far today.
TIM HUGHES, MEMBER OF SADDAM'S DEFENSE TEAM: Yes. Well, we've been based in Amman all day today with the other international lawyers that have been approached to provide the team of defenders for Saddam Hussein. We've been restricted to watching television pictures as they've come through the hearing today. Scandalously, he has not been represented today and has not had any prior legal advice before this court appearance.
HEMMER: Let me try to get that word right. Did you say "scandalously?"
HUGHES: I do, because he should have had an opportunity of being advised fully before appearing before a court. That's a fundamental right, and that's been denied.
HEMMER: Based on what you're trying to do for the former Iraqi leader, how did you approach the Iraqi tribunal? How did you approach the coalition going back weeks, or even months ago, about trying to get involvement in something like we're watching today?
HUGHES: Well, he was captured in mid-December of 2003. Since that time, the secretary general of the defense committee, who is Mohammed al-Rashdan, who is based here in Amman, has been contacting the American authorities, demanding that President Hussein be given the right to legal advice, and also requesting that he be given the basic rights under the Geneva Convention (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it. So to answer your question directly, letters have been sent to the American authorities requesting access to him in order to give him legal advice. And those requests have fallen on deaf ears.
HEMMER: OK. Mr. Hughes, a few things, if you could nail down them for us. We are told that Saddam Hussein's wife has hired 20 attorneys on his behalf. Is that true, and are you one of them?
HUGHES: It is true that she approached Mohammed al-Rashdan, who I mentioned a moment ago. He's a lawyer in Amman, and he and Saddam Hussein's wife then decided that the way to approach such a big case was to draw in expertise from around the globe in terms of legal knowledge. And so they have been seeking to appoint members of the team. And there are people from several different countries that have been approached to join that same team.
HEMMER: All right. Now, are you aware now at this point, Mr. Hughes, of the seven preliminary charges?
HUGHES: Well, we are aware of the charges which we were told yesterday that were going to be put. Again...
HEMMER: Well, let -- I tell you, let me go through them, and then I want to get your reaction for how you mount a defense. Invasion of Kuwait 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprising in 1991, political killings, religious killings, and the gassing of the Kurds, that's the details we have in short form for what were read today in court in Baghdad. How will you defend him against these?
HUGHES: Well, there are -- there are two fundamental issues to be approached and tackled and decided upon before we can get to the substantive defense. The first one is that we will be arguing on his behalf that any trial in Baghdad cannot be fair because it will not have the openness and fairness that trials in legal process demands.
And secondly, we will be saying that, in straight Iraqi law, he remains the president of Iraq, because he was overthrown by what we will be describing as an illegal invasion. Therefore, he still has the immunity from prosecution afforded to the sovereign of the Iraqi state. And therefore, the legal proceedings being brought against him are invalid.
HEMMER: So then you will order two things initially, a change of venue, you will also argue that the current power in Iraq from the coalition to the current interim government is not legal. Is that right?
HUGHES: It's not -- it's not legal in our -- in our argument, because the regime was overthrown by an illegitimate invasion.
HEMMER: The current Iraqi president said a few days ago that the death penalty will be reinstated. Now, this had been suspended during the U.S. occupation. Again, as I speak to you on telephone, this is another tape that we're watching with Saddam Hussein.
There were no microphones that had been played for us today, so we're not quite sure, based on the Arab language that was -- that spoken during the proceedings, what is happening now. But as we continue to watch these, your reaction to what the Iraqi president said regarding the death penalty, Mr. Hughes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bill?
HUGHES: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry.
HEMMER: Yes, go ahead. We're still on the air. Go ahead, Mr. Hughes.
HUGHES: Yes. I'm sorry.
The -- the situation today is that we've been gathered in Amman in order to discuss the legal implications of the charges that have been brought, and to underline and emphasize for the world the way in which the stage has been reached today, which is that he has been held in detention since the middle of December without any legal advice, without any family visits, and without proper checks being made at this early stage with regard to his state of health and whether or not he is fit to undergo such legal proceedings. My reaction to what's happened today is limited at this stage in how deeply I can discuss that with you because he wasn't legally represented.
He should have been legally represented. Members of the team should have been there in order to react directly in front of the court. It's a fairly basic human right that somebody appearing in a court of law be represented by a lawyer. And that's been denied so far. We are seeking that that situation be put right without further delay.
HEMMER: All right. Mr. Hughes, one final question. When do you and your team go to Baghdad?
HUGHES: Well, that's another issue which we're trying to deal with at the moment. The primary concern...
HEMMER: I'm sorry, Mr. Hughes, I'm going to have to interrupt you. I apologize.
On the tape now, we do have not only the microphone, but also the English translation through Arabic. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But this is part of the process.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, DEFENDANT (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway -- anyway, why are you worried? I will come again before you with the presence of the lawyers. So why should we act now and then we say that this was hastened and was done quickly and in -- with haste?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is not haste, a decision or action. This is a record for -- minutes for today's session, so we need to have you sign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: It is our understanding, based on the reports we were getting earlier, Soledad, that he was asked to sign a legal brief or a legal paper and he refused to do that. I'm making the -- I'm making the assumption here that that was the point in the 30-minute proceeding when that took place.
O'BRIEN: Exactly. It sounded like that exact point of interchange where he was saying that I'm not going to -- or I don't need to do this now, because I will come back with my lawyers. And at that time, that could happen. He talked about haste, and there was no reason to have haste in these proceedings.
And, again, you could hear, I believe the translation of the what the judge seemed to be saying, which was, we're not taking about haste, we're just talking about the minutes, the records of the minutes of this session, and that's what you would be signing. But as we know now, Saddam Hussein refused to sign those documents.
And -- and clearly, that was a moment...
HEMMER: Yes.
O'BRIEN: ... that we were speaking about a little bit earlier with Christiane Amanpour, who said that was one of the defiant moments. Interesting, and as she pointed out as well, as the proceeding went on, he got more animated. You could see he was pointing his finger more, he was sort of more into and aware of the proceedings. Not quite as laid back as we saw in the first two tapes that had been fed in to us, and that interchange a little bit.
HEMMER: If it appears a bit disjointed today, that's because it is disjointed today. And we are frankly -- we're flying blind here based on the tapes that are coming out, being played by the pool out of Baghdad.
The U.S. military told us this earlier today. They say everything's been cleared by the military. The majority of faces, with the exception here of what appears to be the Iraqi judge and a profile, have been blocked out. We are told there was significant concern for the safety of those involved in those proceedings today.
The military tells us they allowed no microphones in the courtroom. Well, now, that seems to be rebutted now based on what we just heard. And we'll hear it again here in a second.
O'BRIEN: Christiane -- and she said it seemed as if the military camera, she said, did have a microphone, that in fact they were rolling on -- on sound at some point, completely contradicting what we were told by U.S. military sources.
HEMMER: She was -- she told us the combat camera.
O'BRIEN: The combat camera.
HEMMER: Also, the tapes screened by U.S. military, trying to protect the I.D., again, of the court employees working there. We just heard a short clip, what appeared to be the judge asking him to sign this legal paper. Let's listen again to what we just heard three minutes ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, DEFENDANT (through translator): This is -- this the crux of the matter. You levied charges for action carried under the system whose president was Saddam Hussein, but without any guarantees that are usually given to the presidency.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then answer -- then answer -- then answer formally, and this will go into the record.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then please allow me not to sign anything until the lawyers are present. I talk for myself. I speak for myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You are a defendant. But guarantees -- but this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway -- and anyway, why are you worried? I will come again before you with the presence of the lawyers. So why should we act now, and then we say that this was hastened and was done quickly and in -- with haste.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is not haste, a decision or action. This is a record for -- minutes for today's meeting -- session. So we need to have you sign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: That was the brief audio portion that we've heard so far today.
Tim Hughes is an attorney for Saddam Hussein, now in Amman, Jordan. We interrupted you earlier. Mr. Hughes, if you're back with us again, the final question that I had for you, when will you go to Baghdad? What's your understanding about when that trip will take place?
HUGHES: Well, no member of the legal team will be prepared to go to Baghdad before full and detailed assurances are given on the issues of safety and security for the legal advisers. And the legal team is working on that very issue today. And it's hoped that we will be able to arrange a visit sooner rather than later.
As of yet, I have no firm date for you. Those of us who are from different countries are looking for assistance and reassurances from our own embassies before we travel to Iraq.
HEMMER: Understood. Mr. Hughes, is that days? Is that weeks? Is that months?
HUGHES: Impossible to say at this stage.
OK.
HUGHES: I would not anticipate that it would be months, though.
HEMMER: Tim Hughes, defense attorney in Amman, Jordan, representing Saddam Hussein -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Let's take you back to Christiane Amanpour. She's been reporting on this all morning. She was one of the few journalists who were allowed inside the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein. And, of course, you're watching the tape now. This is the third tape that we've had an opportunity to turn around and show to you.
Christiane, there's been lots of questions about whether or not there would be sound, there would be audio. We've seen a lot of videotape with no audio, and then suddenly the certain interchange and exchange with the judge over the debate about signing that legal document. We heard some of the audio with the translator's voice on it. Can you clear up some of this confusion for us?
AMANPOUR: Well, I have to tell you, it is confusing. And I am now beginning to get trouble that we don't have the correct transcript yet. And we need to have that transcript, even if they don't want to release the formal audio, because the judge apparently has said he doesn't want to release it.
But until we get the full, formal transcript written down from any tape or any microphone that was in there, it's very hard to keep talking to you about what he said and what wasn't said. Because I can tell you a few of the things that we were told while we were in there, but I cannot tell you all the -- all the back and forth, all the legalities, all the questions and answers. And that, right now, we're just telling you what we were told briefly in terms of paraphrasing the direct quotes that we can tell you about, which is his name and the fact that he wouldn't sign the paper. But we're -- we're asking here now, please, to have this sound somehow provided so that a transcript can be made, so that this can be accurately reflected on the record.
O'BRIEN: But clearly, you were right when you told us earlier that, in fact, they were recording the sound. We were told by some U.S. senior military officials that, no, there was no sound being recorded at all. And you said, no, in fact, the combat camera was recording sound.
Well, certainly, when we heard just moments ago some sound inside the courtroom, you were proved right on that point. And there was some confusion on the military's point about whether or not their camera had sound. But certainly it will be interesting to get those final transcripts. Obviously, a translation done on the fly is not quite as useful or as helpful as one that's done a little more deeply.
Let's talk a little bit more about the demeanor. We're now seeing in this third tape a big change. When we first started seeing the first tape, Saddam Hussein appeared much more calm and much more confused, as you described originally. And now, much more animated, annoyed.
You can see him pointing his finger more often. His eyes sort of bulging as he's trying to make a point to the judge at times. Is that essentially how the proceeding went?
AMANPOUR: Yes. He -- as I described it, he came in looking fairly bemused by what was going on. And it was only after he sort of warmed up and the questions kept going back and forth between him and the judge that he then started to get more animated, more persistent, wanted to know what was going on, asking various questions, objecting to various things the judge was telling him.
The judge would then be explaining. The judge spoke a lot. A great deal was spoken by the judge. And Saddam would keep saying, "Please," when he wanted to interrupt, and then put his point forward. But we really are trying to seek this formal proper transcript so that we can get the actual full translation of what went on in there.
O'BRIEN: We're waiting for the -- to rerun this -- what we've been calling the third tape. And, in fact, you're looking at it now. A little more animated Saddam Hussein.
And, again, you could hear audio sound on this tape. It's in Arabic, because we have not gotten the translation, or the interpreter's voice on that tape yet. But these are sort of the -- probably the most animated pictures that we have seen so far. Let's listen in just for one second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING ARABIC).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: It's interesting, again, to watch Saddam Hussein. I mean, obviously, we here do not exactly what is being said. But to just watch his facial reactions as he responds to the back-and-forth by the judge.
Let's go to Octavia Nasr. She's in Atlanta for us. Of course of CNNI.
Octavia, let's get a little analysis on all of this. Give me a sense -- and I don't know how much of the tape you've been able to hear -- of the tone of the back-and-forth exchange between Saddam Hussein and the judge. Is it respectful? Is it rude? How would you describe it?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, before I get to that, Soledad, I believe it's important to say I just heard this last sound bite that we played in Arabic. This is the part where he's talking about Halabja.
And if you recall, Christiane Amanpour, was in the courtroom earlier today, she told us what was said about Halabja. When he was questioned about the massacres -- this is when Saddam Hussein is believed to have gassed the Kurds in Halabja -- he said, "I heard about it in the media, just like you did."
Let's listen to the tape, and listen to it with translation this time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "See, this was done under Saddam Hussein when he was president of Iraq. And then you're talking about the military forces going to Kuwait, right? How can you charge me with anything without protecting my rights under the constitution?"
"This is not right. This is the bulk of our conversation of this subject. Are you charging the president, Saddam Hussein?"
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "This is just a procedure," the judge says. "These are minutes, and you would need to sign the paper."
HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "Right. If you allow me to just tell you that, you know, we will come back, I will come back with my lawyer. Now, I'm speaking on my own behalf. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "These are the procedures. You don't need a lawyer for this. If you could just sign."
HUSSEIN: (SPEAKING ARABIC)
NASR: "No, I will come back with my lawyers. There's nothing to worry about. I'll come back with my lawyers. We don't want to do things in a hurry here"
O'BRIEN: Octavia, let me ask you a question about that. This is an interchange that we've talked about a little bit earlier, Saddam Hussein refusing to sign some legal documents. When Iraqis see this -- this videotape, and they see a fairly defiant Saddam Hussein -- he's not pliable, he's saying, no, I want my attorney present -- how do you think this will play?
NASR: Well, it's already playing very strongly. By watching Arab media, you can get a sense of where this is going to go.
There was a lot of anticipation to see Saddam Hussein, let alone to hear him. And, as you say, in a very defiant way. Now they saw him, the Iraqi people saw him, the whole world saw the human in Saddam Hussein. And this is, I think, what's getting a lot of attention on Arab media and in Arab streets.
This is -- this doesn't look anything like the man that they've used for so many years, the well groomed, with his eyebrows tweezed and his moustache dyed, nicely dressed all the time, very -- very much into his appearance. This is someone who paid so much attention to his appearance.
So to see him looking like this is -- is sending out already a very interesting message. People are paying attention to his looks. If -- if it was by choice that Saddam Hussein decided to keep his beard on, which is widely believed to be the case, this is very Arabic.
This is an Arabic trait, the beard. Usually men will let their beard grow in -- when they're going through a depression or when they're going through mourning or a distressful situation. So already, by appearing the way he does, he's sending a message that he's in mourning, that he -- he is sort of saddened by what's going on.
People are going to pay attention to what he says. The defiance is -- sounds like something that's very well calculated.
Experts already on Arab media listening to this, and watching this tape, are already saying that he's sending out a message that he's not going to give up, that he's not going to be an underdog. That he is -- in his own mind, he's still the president of Iraq, no one is going to be able to take that away from him.
Arab media are stressing, for example, sentences that he exchanged with the judge, sentences like, "I am insisting on my president title out of respect for the people who elected me." This is going to play pretty strongly in Iraq.
Now, we heard earlier some anti-Saddam reaction and some pro- Saddam reaction. So we have to be clear that there is still, even though it's a small group of people in Iraq, but there is a group that supports this man and will be paying attention to what he's saying and will be reacting accordingly.
Another thing that Arab media are picking on, his sentence saying, the -- "How can you charge me with anything while Iraq is under occupation?" So in his mind he still believes Iraq is under occupation.
Analysts on Arab media are not sure if he's saying this because he is out of the loop, that he's not informed, that there was a handover on the 28th, or whether he's just saying that because, even with the handover, he believes that this government, this Iraqi transitional government is an illegal government, which is something that's -- that his lawyers are saying. And you heard his lawyer earlier on the show from Amman, Jordan, saying the same thing, that this is an illegal government, and it doesn't have the right to try the -- the former leader -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Octavia Nasr of CNNI joining us with some terrific analysis of what the Iraqis are thinking as they -- as they see these images and hear the -- hear the words of Saddam Hussein. Octavia, thanks. We're going to continue to check in with you throughout the morning, if that's OK.
HEMMER: Absolutely fascinating, don't you think?
O'BRIEN: I think so, yes.
HEMMER: And you also wonder, too, the reaction from the Iraqi people hearing his voice again, because they will hear his voice after this tape is out and distributed throughout that country, and throughout the Arab world, for that matter, as well.
Good morning again, everyone. If you're just with us, Soledad O'Brien, Bill Hemmer here in New York City on AMERICAN MORNING. About 9:33 now in New York.
Our main story, and for that matter, our only story so far today has been Saddam Hussein, the man who covered Iraq with monuments to himself. Now the Iraqi people are seeing Saddam Hussein again for the first time in seven months. And they see him as a prisoner sitting before a judge. The former dictator's first court appearance coming a little more than two hours ago in this videotape we're watching now coming to us here throughout the morning.
CNN's Christiane Amanpour was inside the courtroom, provided a very detailed description of today's session. Seven preliminary charges read against the former dictator. Saddam Hussein refusing to sign the court documents, saying he has the -- he is the rightful president, rather, of Iraq, calling all of this "theater." At one point he said, the real criminal is Bush, meaning the U.S. president.
O'BRIEN: Let's take you back to Hassan Mneimneh. He is among those who are working on documentation to prove the guilt of Saddam Hussein and others. He is with the Iraq Memory Foundation. He joins us live once again from Washington, D.C.
Specifically, spell out for me what you are doing to -- to help the tribunal as they get under way. Are you filtering documents to them? Are you sending witnesses to them? What exactly is your role?
HASSAN MNEIMNEH, IRAQ MEMORY FOUNDATION: The role has not been formal formalized yet. We do not have an agreement yet. We just had conversations with the tribunal about our potential role.
We are in the process, nonetheless, of collecting a tremendous amount of documents, and we're seeking even more. And we're also, on another front, indeed have started the process of collecting witness testimonies in our oral history project. So both components will ultimately feed, meaning this -- this would just be a partial result of our work we feed into the work of the -- the special tribunal. I mean...
O'BRIEN: I'm sorry for interrupting. Please continue.
MNEIMNEH: No, I was saying that -- but, I mean, clearly, what's going to happen is basically a contest between rhetoric and evidence. And it is meaning our function is to help support the evidence component by providing as much of it as possible.
I have to point here that both, meaning both rhetoric and evidence, benefit from further exposure. The benefit of evidence is clear. Basically, the case will be made, facts will be made available to the public. And therefore, the public will be able to judge for itself.
At the rhetoric front, the more the rhetoric is exposed, the weaker it is. Just listening at the -- the short -- the short segment in which Saddam speaks, indeed there is defiance in what he's saying. I mean, I could -- I could hear that. But the delivery, there's really a discrepancy here between, if you like, form and function.
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) Saddam appears rather weak, rather meek in terms of his attitude. This is not the verbally defiant Saddam that -- that delivers fiery speeches. This is more someone asking for permission, asking for basically certain allowance. And that way, in a certain sense, this underlines the point that I was making before, that it is so important to keep this process as transparent as possible. Ultimately, the merits of the case will make it possible for -- for a conviction to be accepted by the public.
O'BRIEN: The big problem, of course, is, as many people have pointed out, in any kind of tribunal, in any kind of trial, is going to be security. How do you protect -- I'll call them your witnesses, but of course they're not yours. But I'm sure people who have had interaction with you to get their stories on the record, how do you protect those witnesses who are going to coming forward in a place that could truly be one of the least safe places in the world right now?
MNEIMNEH: This is clearly an issue that -- that goes far beyond our -- if you like, our ability. But what I can point to is -- is the following. Indeed, we, in the potential list of participants in our oral history program, we are indeed extremely concerned about security. And therefore, I mean, we have to keep in mind, on the other hand, that there is many -- actually millions of Iraqis who are not currently in Iraq. They are outside. And many of those have suffered tremendous hardships under the Saddam regime.
And therefore, at least for the time being, maybe our focus would be clearly on a combination. But our focus would be on collecting that evidence, that with the testimonies of people who are not under, meaning a direct threat by potential supporters of Saddam Hussein within -- within Iraq.
O'BRIEN: Hassan Mneimneh of the Iraq Memory Foundation, joining us this morning, talking a little bit about what a trial in the future could mean. Thank you for being with us. Thanks for sticking around with us all morning. And we're going to ask you, if we may, to continue to stick around as we watch this.
This is now the fourth tape that we've fed. Although it looks very similar to some of the earlier tapes as we get the pictures in from -- from Baghdad of Saddam Hussein as he appears before the court proceedings.
HEMMER: And the first chance we have seen the former dictator since December of last year, 2003. Seven months of captivity to date, going back to mid-December. He is now a criminal defendant.
This is our understanding of what's happening in Baghdad as we watch this videotape. Eleven others scheduled to appear before an Iraqi judge today, including Chemical Ali, otherwise known as Ali Hassan Al-Majid, for his role, alleged role in the gassing of the Kurds in 1988. Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz also to face a judge today. And the former vice president, Taha Yassin Ramadan.
So a group of 12 go today, including Saddam Hussein, who was first on that list. That trial, however, may not take place for months. Some are suggesting years. No trial, we're told, though, before 2005 gets under way.
Who testifies against him? What type of chance are these people taking? And a concern also, too, given about the witnesses who will appear.
The first Arab dictator to face a trial. How do Iraqis react? How do the Arab world react after this? All questions that will be answered in the weeks and months and possibly years to come.
We do have some audio from the 30-minute proceeding today that has been translated, not only into English, but also the microphone is actually on and transmitted to us. We played that for you about 20 minutes ago. This is the -- the -- the time of the proceeding when Saddam Hussein was asked to sign some sort of legal brief or legal paper. It's our understanding he refused to get that as well, get that signature on paper as well.
Let's go back a little bit. It runs about two and a half minutes in length. And let's listen. Saddam Hussein in court earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUSSEIN (through translator): I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the norms of the legal session will not (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Please allow me. The seventh charge against Saddam Hussein was against the president of Iraq, as the commander of chief of the army.
The army went to Kuwait. OK? Then it was an official matter.
So how come a charge will be levied against somebody, an official who is doing -- carrying out their duties? How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued? These are -- these are rights guaranteed by constitution.
This is the crux of the matter. You levy charges for acts that happened under a system whose president was Saddam Hussein. But without guarantees of the presidency. How can that happen from a legal standpoint?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then you answer those charges. These are only charges. You have the right to answer them. Officially, just go ahead and answer.
Tell us your story. Tell us your side. Answer them. We need to enter that into the minutes of this session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Then please allow me -- allow me not to sign until I get -- until the lawyers are present.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): But these minutes have to be signed.
HUSSEIN (through translator): I talk about -- I speak for myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The guarantees need to be signed. This needs to be signed. But this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, this is not part of the process.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, this is part of the process.
HUSSEIN (through translator): But anyway, you are going to summon me again before you, and then -- and then the papers will be reviewed in the presence of lawyers. So why should we act in -- hastily, and then we commit a -- make a mistake? Then...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No, there's no hasty decision-making here. You have the right to -- to sign. You do have to sign. This is -- these are the minutes of the session.
HUSSEIN (through translator): No, I will sign only when the lawyers are present.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: That is the audio that has been translated to date. We expect more. And if we get more, we'll certainly give it to you.
Security (ph) air time for this proceeding today lasted about 30 minutes for Saddam Hussein. Christiane Amanpour earlier today described him as thin, as tired, as defeated, as confused. We also, though, hear in his voice a tone of defiance, a tone of coherence as well, saying quite clearly, I'm not going to do anything until I get a lawyer here. We can come back and do this at a later time. There's no rush.
It seemed to be the indication from Saddam Hussein based on that translation. So that's what we know now.
O'BRIEN: Interesting to hear from Octavia Nasr, saying that how that will play in the Arab media, that he is clearly telegraphing to his supporters that he's not defeated, that he actually, you know, is coming out fairly strongly.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You can see it in his eyes. He's absolutely focused. You know, he's, to a degree, running things in that courtroom. I mean, it doesn't look like he's lost a step to me.
The viewers are having a varied and fascinating responses. I mean, this is a -- this is a hell of a story. You see this once in a lifetime.
Bob in Boynton Beach, Florida, writes this: "We're told these court proceedings are conducted by and under control of Iraq, but we're being told 'U.S. military won't allow microphones in court.' This sounds like the U.S. is in charge. It makes the whole thing sound like the court is a U.S. puppet."
Sean in Greenville, North Carolina, "Thanks for bringing up the silliness of this trial. I'm stunned to see American journalists getting so excited about a trial where the court officials have their faces hidden from public view and the defendant has no lawyer."
Rob in Cape Town, South Africa, "Saddam arguing his defense, utterly stupid, needlessly expensive, and time-consuming. All that needs to have occurred was to have Saddam Hussein present while a public notice was read out listing his crimes against the people of Iraq and humanity. Following the reading, he should have been taken out and shot by a firing squad."
And David in Port Charlotte, Florida, "This is an outrage," he writes. "Once again, the powers that be have censored us again. The release of the Saddam Hussein tape without sound is a joke. We have spent billions in taxpayer dollars in this country. We have bought the right to see and hear the proceedings as they occur." So all kinds of reactions from people. But you can't -- it's one of those things you can't take your eyes off of. You know? Even without the sound.
Just the pictures of this man sitting there facing some of his peers, and people that he oppressed for so long, it's riveting stuff. And Christiane and the CNN crew have just done a tremendous job.
HEMMER: Dynamite. Dynamite.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
O'BRIEN: To hear her describe the guards' reactions, I mean, to hear they are escorting him in, or in some cases picking him up out of the chair, you know, the leader, the dictator of their country for 30 years, I mean, it's amazing.
HEMMER: Yes. I think you touched on something, though, there. When the Iraqi people hear his voice again -- it was at the end of the war, the last time they ever heard any sort of communication from him -- when they hear is voice again, for those who have been scared for decades, how will they respond?
CAFFERTY: Plus, contrast the video we're looking at here this morning with that -- with that video that we've seen so many time of them picking lice out of his hair and shining a flashlight in his mouth, and -- and, you know, looking like somebody that they dragged out of a homeless shelter. I mean, the guy has obviously gotten himself back together. And probably -- there it is, these pictures.
Look at the difference. And how much more intimidating and frightening it must be to the ordinary people in Iraq to see not these pictures, where he looks helpless, but the pictures we're looking at this morning, when he marched into court and sat down and seemed very much in control. I mean, quite a contrast there.
HEMMER: There will be comparisons throughout this, fair or not...
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: ... with the trial of Slobodan Milosevic...
CAFFERTY: Absolutely.
HEMMER: ... and the defiance he brought to the world court in The Hague. And Christiane Amanpour covered that very intently. She's back with us, live in Baghdad.
Christiane, a quick question to you about -- about what we're picking up. Based on his eyes and his facial expressions -- and he appears rather coherent, especially when he says I will not sign that piece of paper, I'll come back another time, we're in no hurry, I'll bring an attorney next time. Did you pick up on that as well?
AMANPOUR: Yes, there was no question that he was coherent. And there are no questions that his eyes were bright and that he was focused.
As I described, he came in looking fairly like he didn't know what he was doing or why he was there, looking a little bit surprised, looking a little bit down. And as the discussion proceeded with the judge, he became more and more animated about what was going on.
Just a couple more quotes. But again, you know, we are -- until we get a formal transcript from the sound tape, it's something of a disadvantage in terms of direct quotes. But the judge apparently told him at one point, "This is just an investigation, not a trial." Saddam Hussein said, "You represent the people. Remember that you're a judge. Don't talk about the occupation."
He said, "I have a right to lawyers." And the judge at one point said, "If you would just give me 10 minutes, I would explain you your rights. You have a right to know what this is and what is happening."
Saddam Hussein said, "I didn't practice law. But I am a man who understands the law." And the judge said, "You have a right to know what's going on. I am not judging you. I'm an investigator."
Saddam Hussein apparently said, "The Americans can try Saddam under the Geneva Conventions. How is it, though, that an Iraqi judge is judging me under the Geneva Conventions?"
Well, he is no longer protected under the Geneva Conventions, and he was told that yesterday. So I'm not sure whether there's confusion in his mind. He's no longer a POW. He's no longer protected by the Geneva Conventions. He's now in Iraqi custody and under their legal system.
At one point he said, "I don't want to embarrass you." And he looked around, and he said, "I don't want to embarrass you and everyone here, but everyone here knows that this is a theater by Bush, the criminal, to win the elections, to say that this is what the people of Iraq want, a free Iraq."
Then, again, he said to the judge, "You are a judge bringing these accusations in this session." He started talking about the constitution. And then what we've been talking about, the situation where he didn't want to sign, the fact that he had been read his rights, the official sort of minutes of the proceedings there. He said, "I won't do that. I'll come back again with lawyers."
O'BRIEN: Christiane, it's Soledad. A curious question for you that -- that one of the viewers actually raised to Jack in an e-mail. What was the theory behind limiting or not allowing the audiotape to be released of the proceedings? What were they trying -- what are they trying to control exactly?
AMANPOUR: Well, we're told that it was the Iraqi judge who didn't want the audio out because of various matters. First, we were told security. Then we were told maybe because he was worried that -- that there might be some kind of outburst or things might get out of control. And nobody really knew what to expect when he came in. There were only two guards inside. But obviously there were lots of guards, American soldiers at the ready outside. So I think it was partly cautious.
As I say, we are trying to press this audio issue, because we can't really, you know, provide you a coherent direct quotation. We can just provide you snippets based on what we've picked up at that time. But even if -- well, we're still trying to resolve that issue. But at the moment, we're being told that that is -- that is the case, that the Iraqi judge doesn't want that audio out, and that it's not -- it's not meant to be played.
HEMMER: Christiane, Jeff Toobin is back with us as well. And by my watch, it's been about three hours since this proceeding wrapped. Why the delay in the transcript is beyond us. But we'll be patient.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Christiane, I wanted to ask you, I don't mean to put you on the spot here, but I've been very struck by the book to the left of the judge, an -- what appears to be some sort of Arabic law book, which seems to me put there not coincidentally to show that this is an Iraqi legal proceeding, not an American proceeding. But how much do you have a sense -- I know you've spoken to the American legal advisers, to the tribunal. How much will this be a genuinely Iraqi legal production, and how much will the Americans be pulling the strings behind the scenes?
AMANPOUR: Well, it's interesting you mentioned those books. I saw them, too. There was two small books that the Iraqi judge was consulting.
Mostly, I saw it before Saddam Hussein came in. And I couldn't get anybody to tell me what those books are. But I'm sure you're probably right, that they are some kind of legal books. He also had in front of him folders, and beside him, to the other side, on his right-hand side, folders that were closed.
In terms of what kind of process it's going to be, we're told that it is an Iraqi process, the trial process. But it will have -- it will adhere to certain international norms. And the Department of Justice people who are here, the attorneys who have come and who are experienced in these kinds of crimes, certainly in gathering the evidence for war crimes and other such things, they are giving advice.
They have an office here that's called Former Regime Crimes Liaison Office. That's what the Americans have set up here. And that is advising, helping the Iraqi justice, in terms of the special tribunal, how to proceed with this.
TOOBIN: And I know that one of the people leading it is a former assistant U.S. attorney from Tampa. You have FBI agents there. This is a -- it's such -- such a peculiar hybrids. And our government wants this to be an -- wants this to be an Iraqi proceeding, yet wants it -- wants the evidence to be there. And we're really the only position -- the only people in a position to gather the evidence at this point. There really is no infrastructure to do that in the Iraqi justice system. AMANPOUR: Well, you know, without -- again, I'm not an expert on the Iraqi legal system. But you can -- you know that in the past a court procedure was basically a kangaroo court. It was -- it was not done in -- in accordance with the kind of legal international regulations that certainly western democracies would have in their own systems.
It was very much, you're accused, you're tried, you're, you know, you're convicted and punished, and basically that's that. So there isn't a whole lot of experience over the last three decades of the kinds of trials and the kind of system here in Iraq that needs to be in place for this one.
And that's why they are having help and advice from outside, and not just American, but other -- other countries also are helping. It puts some of the other countries, like the European countries, in a bit of a tricky position, because since the death penalty will be the maximum punishment, and since the Europeans have signed the convention against the death penalty, it puts them in a bit of a tricky position in terms of how much they can actually assist and just how far their -- their cooperation on this -- on this matter can be.
But, of course, in America, and many states, there is the death penalty. And therefore, it's easier for American lawyers. And because obviously this is an American-led process, as the occupation was, there's still a lot of American advisers in many -- in many branches of government here and this particular legal process. And they're trying to make it a trial that will stand up and stand the test of international scrutiny.
HEMMER: Jeff Toobin, thanks again for your help today, and your insights. I think, from a legal sense, it's been fascinating for you as well.
TOOBIN: And we're just starting.
HEMMER: That's true.
TOOBIN: I mean, there's just so much to go. And this is going to be such an extraordinary experience for the international legal system.
HEMMER: Yes.
A few things that we've picked up on over the 30-minute proceeding based on what Christiane's reporting, one of the only reporters inside that courtroom earlier today. When asked if he could afford a lawyer, Saddam responded, "The Americans say I have millions hidden in Switzerland. How can I not have the money to pay for one?" Meaning an attorney.
He refused to recognize the invasion of Kuwait in August of 1990, saying, "How could you say that we invaded Kuwait? I did this for the Iraqi people. How could you defend these dogs?" Again, referring to the Kuwaiti people. The Iraqi judge at that time reprimanded him, saying that language unacceptable in this courtroom. And one other quote from the former Iraqi leader, "I'm elected by the people of Iraq. The occupation cannot take that right away from me." Part of what was spoken today.
O'BRIEN: And let's head back out just for a moment to Christiane Amanpour, of course, who was in the courtroom for these proceedings.
It was interesting, Christiane, to hear from Octavia Nasr, who was doing some analysis for us, where she said that just the vision of Saddam Hussein, with a beard, sends sort of a human message to maybe his supporters, maybe all Iraqis as well. But it was an interesting message. What do you think the message of his appearance and his demeanor and his shaking of the finger and his defiance, what do -- what do you think that message is to Iraqis?
AMANPOUR: Well, look, I don't know. I can't get inside his head. I was surprised that he did have a beard, because we were told before he came in that he would be clean-shaven except for a moustache. But he did have the beard on, and he did not have that when he was president.
I was frankly surprised by his look. He was much thinner. We're told he's lost 12 pounds. We're told that he's in good health otherwise.
But in terms of the way he was gesticulating and the way was -- his demeanor, you know, it was sort of Saddam-like. I mean, it was the familiar gesticulations, the sort of leaning back sideways in the chair, sort of talking to the judge. But, of course, it was -- it was him in a subservient position.
He was no longer in charge. Although he seemed to think that he should be, in terms of maybe not be in charge, but certainly be treated as a president. He kept saying that.
He kept talking about the constitution and how he's elected by the people, and that he was still the president and should be tried as the president if "all of these things that you're talking about is when I was president." That was a very repetitive theme during his back-and-forth with the judge.
We've heard, and I've heard from people who say they've heard from the debriefers, that, you know, at the beginning, he talked perhaps, you know, a fair amount to the interrogators when he was first captured. But that subsequently clammed up. He didn't talk so much over the last few, maybe couple of months, few weeks.
And it was told to me that he had known about the insurgency that was going on. Perhaps he thought that that was still some hope that he would be sprung, that this situation would fail, and that somehow he would come back to power.
In terms of a message, I think he was just telling the judge what he thought should be afforded to him. Still, he said, "I'm the president of Iraq." O'BRIEN: Christiane Amanpour, really truly remarkable reporting for us this morning. We appreciate it, starting at 7:00 in the morning, when the proceedings began. A fascinating description of what went on in that courtroom.
Christiane, we thank you very much. And, of course, we'll check in with you again tomorrow as we do the follow-up on this story. Thanks.
HEMMER: Countless opinions on this issue.
O'BRIEN: I'm sure.
HEMMER: Back to Jack as we close out our morning.
CAFFERTY: Touching a whole lot of feelings and emotions among viewers. And I picked three here to kind of wrap up our morning with that -- that are particularly poignant, I thought.
Tim in (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Maryland, "The rest of the Arab dictators, after seeing Saddam Hussein in court today, must realize how fragile their actual hold on power is."
Norman writes, "Although I know the Iraqi dictator is a mass murderer and deserves the severest punishment, I'm wondering about the timing and legitimacy of this so-called trial. How could an interim government handpicked by an occupier be a legitimate legal authority with the power of life and death over it citizens?
And Eduardo in Sacramento, California, writes, "There are many serious questions not being asked. Who's the judge? Who elected or appointed him? Under whose authority? Was he appointed by Paul Bremer?"
"Both the court and trial should be examples of unquestionable judicial legitimacy. Are they?"
O'BRIEN: Many questions also involving the timing. I mean, why is this the first thing that this new government takes on, when security obviously is a much more pressing issue, and a much more difficult issue probably to fix in any way, shape or form. But this is certainly symbolic. It's important emotionally to Iraqis. And one has to imagine that was a very big reason why we are seeing Saddam Hussein on TV today.
CAFFERTY: And let's remember, it is an election year here in the United States.
O'BRIEN: As he pointed out -- Saddam Hussein pointed out to the judge, that one reason that he was there is that President Bush wanted to be reelected, so he said.
HEMMER: Throughout the day, as you stay with us here on CNN, you're going to see more videotape, not just of Saddam Hussein, but also possibly 11 others now who face an Iraqi judge. Saddam Hussein was the first in line, essentially. We do anticipate throughout the day Tariq Aziz; the man known as Chemical Ali as well; the former vice president, Taha Yassin Ramadan, as well. So as we go throughout the day, look for more images out of Baghdad.
CAFFERTY: They're going to be playing a little let's make a deal over there, I have a hunch.
O'BRIEN: Eleven others? Absolutely. No question.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: We will wait to see when we see him again. But for today, that's what we have. It's been history. We'll see where we go.
Nice to be with the three of you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you.
CAFFERTY: Always a pleasure.
O'BRIEN: And let's head out...
HEMMER: The three of you being...
O'BRIEN: ... right now to Carol Lin...
HEMMER: You got it.
O'BRIEN: ... who is in Atlanta.
HEMMER: Good morning, Carol.
O'BRIEN: She's going to take you through the next several hours.
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