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American Morning
Saddam Hussein Makes First Appearance in Court
Aired July 01, 2004 - 8:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. Just coming up on half past this hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
If you are just joining us, really it's been a remarkable day -- I think it's fair to say -- as we have seen, heard descriptions of Saddam Hussein appearing before an Iraqi court for the first time today. We're awaiting that videotape that was shot during those proceedings. We have not actually had a chance to see them. No audio -- the audio has been taken out of that videotape.
But we'll get a chance to see what Saddam Hussein looked like although we've been told what happened because, of course, our CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour was one of the very few journalists allowed inside that proceeding. What she has described is really pretty fascinating.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: And very, very vivid, too.
I want to get back to Baghdad quickly. We are told -- just a few moments away. On the screen now, this is the last image we saw of Saddam Hussein in December meeting with Ahmed Chalabi and two other Iraqi leaders at the time. Now, this is the first glimpse we have today of Saddam Hussein when the court proceedings got under way. Now, we anticipate this tape to roll forward at some time very soon.
Christiane Amanpour described him as rather clean-shaven but tired, and also "defeated" was the word she used. And many times she said he also appeared confused.
As we await this tape to roll, we'll keep the image on the screen. And back to Baghdad and Anderson Cooper for more there -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Christiane Amanpour was in the courtroom describing him as downcast, defeated and yet defiant.
As you look at this image, clearly a trimmed beard. The man has lost weight. Salem Chalabi who met with Saddam Hussein yesterday, estimating Hussein has lost between 11 and 12 pounds. This, interesting to see him with this beard. It's not something we saw him with during his reign in power. The mustache, of course, we are used to.
To explain a little bit why we're frozen on this image, this tape is available to all the networks at exactly the same moment. It is what we call a pool feed. This tape has been looked over by authorities here. They wanted to black out any faces of Iraqi participants whose faces they did not want shown. Some of the court officers and the like, for their own protection.
Security here is still a major issue. We are literally just getting this tape. We are seeing it for the first time. There is another image of Saddam Hussein responding. You're not hearing audio. We are just going to be seeing video at this point. It's still a point being negotiated as to whether or not we ultimately will hear some audio.
Saddam Hussein appearing somewhat disheveled, definitely a far cry from the President Saddam Hussein we are used to seeing, looking somewhat stunned there, blinking and yet defiant at times, pointing toward the Iraqi justice -- Bill.
HEMMER: Anderson, I apologize for the interruption here. Thanks for that.
This is the image now from Al-Jazeera. So the freeze frame now. This has gone into the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein. We don't expect audio. We're told by senior officials, by the U.S. government, that the audio will not be released. All of the proceedings done in Arabic. And we're also told it will be unedited.
So what we anticipate, based on what we've been hearing now up to this point, is that this tape may run for the next 30 minutes or so.
And again, Saddam Hussein appearing in court for the first time -- the first images we have had of him in the past seven months, going back to mid-December when he met with some senior Iraqi officials inside of what appeared to be a prison cell near the airport in Baghdad.
Back to Christiane Amanpour at the convention.
Christiane, I don't believe you can see this image from your location there, but we can see, just so you know, a tight picture of Saddam Hussein looking rather intense, at times talking as well. You were in the courtroom -- bring our viewers up-to-date based on what you saw and experienced today.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That is exactly right.
He was sitting in a chair after he had come in escorted by two Iraqi guards. He was not handcuffed when he came into the court. He was sat in the chair, faced the judge who was sitting with his back to the bank of cameras, with the Quran on the judge's table.
And Saddam Hussein, as I say, was looking alternately very intense sometimes with a wry smile to our bench where we were sitting, sometimes very defiant, trying to question the proceedings, trying to object to certain things that he was being told, but using his hands a lot, gesturing, asking please, when he wanted to interrupt the proceedings. Sometimes he was leaning with his elbow on the arm of the chair and his hand in his -- his head in his hand. Sometimes he had his hand over his face. He was stroking his beard. He was, basically -- look, he looked, for the most part, a defeated man, but there were times when he tried to raise his voice. It was quite hoarse.
I was quite surprised his voice was hoarse and fairly weak, but he did keep asking questions about why this was going on.
Again, we are still waiting for the full, formal transcript because as you said and we noted, this was all done in Arabic between Saddam Hussein and the lawyer.
There were no simultaneous translations. There was no consecutive translation. There was no formal translation that was done in that court. It was an Iraqi procedure: Iraqi judge, Iraqi court photo -- court reporters, Saddam Hussein, Iraqi judges -- and Iraqi guards rather. And therefore, this was done not with an international audience in mind inside the court.
So it will be a fairly sort of slowish process before we get all of the video out, because we've had to black out faces of those who don't want to be shown, for instance, the other Iraqis who were in there.
And we're still debating as to whether the actual sound will be released. It has not yet been. And we know that the judge was reluctant to do that and, in fact, we may not hear the sound, because he did not want this to be a showpiece for Saddam Hussein. He was afraid, if there would be an outburst, he didn't want that broadcast for people to see or hear, rather.
HEMMER: Christiane, to our viewers, if you're just joining us, seven preliminary charges read today in court. The charges involve the invasion of Kuwait back in August of 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprisings in 1991 -- that was after the first Persian Gulf War -- political killings, religious killings and the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja in 1988.
Based on the charges and when they were read -- and you've described his reaction to us early in our broadcast, but I want to go back to it only because you have told us earlier today that often times he was jabbing, jabbing his fingers toward the judge in that direction.
What was his reaction when the charges came forward?
AMANPOUR: Well, he specifically objected to the notion that he was being accused of invading Kuwait. He basically said that, I can't believe that you, as an Iraqi, would say this. We did this for the Iraqi people. And they were trying to lower the price of oil, trying to turn Iraqi women into prostitutes.
I mean, it was quite, sort of, colorful language, but he was basically saying, I wasn't invading Iraq, this was part of duty to help -- rather Kuwait -- to help defend the Iraqi people. And he basically said, he called the Kuwaitis dogs. And at that point, the judge said, "Don't use such words in a court. Let me remind you that you're now in a court of law and such language is not permitted."
So he also refused to sign the statement afterwards, the statement that acknowledged that he had been read his rights, that he understood what was going on, that he had the right to get a lawyer, at which point the judge said, fine. And the judge entered all of this, the fact that he understood what was going on and he had been read his rights and he entered it on behalf of the court and on behalf of Saddam Hussein. That is his right -- he is able to do that, the judge.
Saddam, at that point, asked if things were finished. The judge said, yes. And Saddam said hullah (ph). That was the last thing we heard him say, which means it's over, finished -- and he left.
O'BRIEN: Christiane, it's Soledad.
Quick question for you -- and before I get to it, actually let me just welcome our international viewers from CNNi who are joining us this morning, as well. You said that Saddam Hussein asked under whose jurisdiction is this court? And I know you've described him as both defiant and confused at times. So when he was asking that question, was that a defiant question or was that sort of a confused question?
AMANPOUR: That was quite subdued, that one. He wasn't sort of angry. He just kept insisting who is the judge? Who is the court? What is it? Under what jurisdiction? And he sort of was looking around.
At that point, that was very early on -- just a few minutes after he had sat down. And at that point he was, you know, still looking a little stunned, a little lost that this man who obviously was omnipotent at one point now was at the mercy of a court of law and he didn't quite know what was going on. And he kept insisting that he was the president and that he had - he should not be tried in this instance, that the occupation did not have -- did not mean he was stripped of his title.
The judge reminded him that under international law, the occupation and the occupiers have the right to strip him of his right. He reminded him that he was a prisoner of war under the occupation, not president. And this was sort of like a debate that was going back and forth between them for quite a long time.
And it was interesting because it's one thing for Saddam Hussein to try to say what he wants to say, but it's another to have somebody who, you now, for all those years would have lived in fear of this man, actually coming back, making legal arguments, telling him what was what, and how things were to be done.
And at no point did the judge appear to flinch, did he appear to feel that he was in some kind of an awkward position. He was just very matter of fact, very professional and basically got on with the job.
HEMMER: Christiane, stand by there in Baghdad.
Jeff Toobin also is with us today, our senior legal analyst with a question as well.
JEFF TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Christiane, I was wondering about the charges other than the Kuwait charges, the charges broadly defined relating to murder, the genocide, the gassing of the Kurds -- did you have a sense of what his defense is to those charges? Is he saying that he didn't know it took place or he didn't order it? Did he address it at all specifically?
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm going to have to beg to see the official final translation on that. The only thing I can tell you is that on the Halabja account, he basically said I've heard about that in the media as well. They said it happened during the reign of President Saddam Hussein.
Well, that seemed to be a non-acceptance of responsibility. It just seemed to be that he was saying, that yes, it happened. But we need to get the full transcript. At that point, he didn't really give his defenses, except for about the Kuwaiti issue, as I told you, when he basically denied that it was an invasion or an occupation or anything. He said this was in order for me to defend the rights of the Iraqi people.
TOOBIN: It just...
AMANPOUR: And then, again, he kept -- go ahead.
TOOBIN: Well, it just underlines how much -- what a task it is ahead for this tribunal, to get the actual evidence that he didn't authorize or somehow supervise this. It is not at simple as, simply well it took place. He must be responsible. There is going to be a need to get actual evidence, witnesses, documents and testimony.
AMANPOUR: Well, exactly. And you talk to any criminal lawyer, human rights lawyer, lawyers who try these kinds of -- the maximum importance, there is no more serious charge than genocide and crimes against humanity. And those, we believe, are going to be contained eventually in the formal indictment. These are preliminary charges. Then the investigation and the evidence has to be collected.
The judge -- the investigating judge who was there today will, for a period of time, question Saddam Hussein, question witnesses, question, perhaps, other detainees. We're being told that the tribunal, the special Iraqi tribunal will be offering plea bargains to others who are also being brought before this process.
Many of them -- perhaps, it's done already -- but there were 11 other top regime members who were going to face this judge for the arraignment after Saddam was finished.
And we're told that some of them may be willing to talk in return for either leniency or whatever they're offered in a plea bargain. But that, we believe, will be offered to those people, if they come forward and say what -- if they come forward and speak against Saddam Hussein and provide testimony on those issues.
And we already know that yesterday when Salem Chalabi and the judge went to Saddam Hussein -- and again some of these others, the 11 others that are being charged along with him -- and informed them they were now under official Iraqi legal custody, they were no longer POWs, they were now in the Iraqi legal system.
One of them -- we believe it was Saddam's personal secretary who also had a lot of executive power -- basically kept saying I did nothing, I knew nothing, I did nothing wrong. So they're hoping that they may be able to get some of the others to testify against Saddam.
HEMMER: Christiane, just so our viewers, in case you're just joining us, this is what we understand is happening here. This is the feed that has been sent out from Baghdad. You saw it go to black earlier. We're not quite sure why. But it's our understanding that they are essentially changing tapes. And while that process happens, we're going back and forth between this pool tape and what's happening in Al-Jazeera.
Why the images are different, we're not quite sure yet. But it's our understanding, that the reason why there is no sound, is that the U.S. senior officials there in Baghdad did not allow, essentially, any microphones in this courtroom. The tape has been screened, but the tape we're watching has not been edited. That does not appear to be the case in Al-Jazeera. Now what that matters in the end, we're not quite sure.
But just so our viewers know, this is the first time we're seeing this videotape. As we go throughout the morning we'll try to sort out a lot of these matters for you.
AMANPOUR: What I can tell you about that is there were three or four cameras in there. There was Al-Jazeera. There was CNN, which was acting for pool. There was an Iraqi network, Al-Iraqiya and there was Combat Camera as well. The issue of the sound was the Iraqi judge said that he didn't want the sound. Sound has been recorded. It has been recorded by the Combat Camera. The question is, will it be released or not?
Now, the reason perhaps you're seeing some edits on the pool tape that you're seeing is because we were instructed that, if the camera had caught any Iraqis on camera, then they had to be edited out or their faces have to be digitally disguised, because the Iraqi guards, for instance, the Iraqi court reporters, any other members of the procedure there did not want to be shown on camera.
This is still a place where fear reigns. And there are still people loyal to Saddam Hussein who have been waging this terror campaign over the last many, many months. And the Iraqis who are taking part in this and involved in this court process are worried about their identities being revealed.
Now, I don't know what you're seeing on Al-Jazeera. And I was under the impression that Al-Jazeera was under the same restrictions and that this whole thing was a pool, but we'll wait and see the remaining tape that we're able to get out. They were trying to get a quick few minutes out so that we could broadcast it, but the whole process did take 30 minutes.
O'BRIEN: The pictures we've been seeing on Al-Jazeera are, just seem to be the similar setup, but of course different angles, different shots -- a tighter shot -- of Saddam Hussein. So as we go back and forth, you sort of see the difference.
We should tell our viewers and you, as well, Christiane, that senior U.S. officials told us they have decided to release the tape without sound. They say that that they did not allow any mics in the courtroom and that is why we're hearing it without sound. But I realize, as you say, the Combat Camera was recording sound, so there is some sound recorded somewhere.
My question for you, Christiane, is what some have said this morning about what we heard in -- or what was heard in the courtroom -- and what you heard in the courtroom, to some degree sets up his defense: essentially challenges to the legitimacy of the court, challenges to the proceedings as a whole, challenges to the facts, challenges to, you know, the basic defense of Halabja, I don't know anything about it; I've done nothing wrong.
Do you think that that's a fair assessment?
AMANPOUR: It won't be a defense in court, that he has to have his lawyers build a proper defense.
You know, the issue is -- you know, I watched the Milosevic, the beginnings of the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, and Milosevic was much, much more defiant than Saddam Hussein: I mean, formally refusing to recognize the court, refusing to have a lawyer, demanding that he represent himself, turning the whole thing into a political platform for himself.
The Iraqis say that they will not allow -- they've learned from that tribunal -- and they will not allow that to happen here.
HEMMER: Christiane, also as we're watching this videotape, we should point out yet again, 11 others expected to appear in court today. People like the deputy prime minister, the former deputy prime minister, Tariq Aziz, best known as the spokesman throughout the 1990s -- his work not only in Baghdad, but is so often appearing in Washington, D.C. and New York City, for that matter; Ali Hassan al- Majid, known at Chemical Ali; former vice president Taha Yassin Ramadan and several others.
Do we expect videotape from these other 11 appearances?
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. I broke away after Saddam Hussein in order to be able to report this, but the pool cameras are still there, and those 11 are probably halfway through, if not through their process right now.
They were coming in all together. They were being flown, like Saddam was flown, by helicopter from his place of detention to the base where this ad-hoc courtroom has been established now. It's a building that is not a courthouse but is being used as a courthouse, and in fact, is being used in some of the court-martial proceedings for the U.S. military personnel over the Abu Ghraib situation.
So that is being used for this process, for this initial part of this process, anyway. And the other 11 were being brought in after Saddam Hussein had been taken back to his place of detention, and they were being taken into a holding room there. And then one by one, they would go in and face the judge and have a similar process of being asked their name, being asked to state for the record what their age and their name is, read their rights, told of their right to counsel, et cetera.
We were told that although Saddam Hussein was allowed to go for 30 minutes, back and forth with him and the judge, the others would have no longer than about 10 minutes, we're told.
HEMMER: Christiane, help us understand how you, about two hours, ago described Saddam Hussein as confused. I think you used the word at least twice. When we watch this videotape, he appears very attentive and very with it. You use the word defiant as well. We can't hear the audio, so we can't really categorize that. But could you put that into words for us. How did he appear confused to you?
AMANPOUR: You know, it progressed. I mean, after he came in, as I said, when he came in, the description is that he looked very surprised, a little bit lost. His head was down. He was sat down. He sort of sat there, and he looked very quiet and defeated.
As the process went on, he became more animated. He was talking to the judge. He kept asking please when he wanted to break in and ask him a question. And by the end, he was quite defiant. But it wasn't a defiance -- it wasn't loud. It wasn't brutal. It wasn't a violent sort of vocal defiance. It was more insistent. It was -- some of it was wry. He would make wry asides, look at us, have a little smile and then say something regarding the process. But I said that he looked alternately all of those emotions.
HEMMER: Christiane, hang with us there in Baghdad. We'll watch this tape again for as long as it lasts here.
And Jeff Toobin is with me as well. Jeff, you've talked about and you've looked at this for several months now leading up to, in fact, this day and where we go after this day. One thing you're quite critical about is the witness protection problem. Why is that such a problem?
TOOBIN: You know, one of the things that this whole proceeding underlines is that there is going to be a need to gather evidence in this case. It is not simply enough to just put Saddam Hussein on trial and say everybody knows he's guilty. So you need people to testify against him. Look at how security has been so critical for everything in connection with Iraq since -- since the United States has been there -- or even over the past few days.
You've had the handover conducted virtually in secret. We've had this trial, or this proceeding, conducted under extraordinary security situation. You have the shot of -- the public shot of Saddam Hussein, which we're looking at on camera now, but making sure not to look at the other people in the courtroom because it's so dangerous for them.
The people most at risk will be the witnesses who testify against him. The Iraqi special tribunal is going to have to set up some sort of mechanism to protect those people. We have in the United States a witness protection program, but this is going to have to be a witness protection program on steroids.
HEMMER: Very true.
About 30 minutes ago, Jack Cafferty was sitting here and we were talking about the proceedings and how they've set them up. In a legal sense, does this appear to be a rush job?
TOOBIN: Well, you know so little has happened that it's very hard to say. This, in many respects, is the easy part. This, essentially, in -- to put it in American terms -- this is like an arraignment.
Saddam Hussein is being informed of the charges against him and told in a general sense what his rights are. That is not a very complex proceeding, and this one seems to be a perfectly ordinary arraignment. However, the hard part starts now.
What kind of witnesses -- what kind of defense will he be able to put on? We can be sure he is going to want to call, for example, Donald Rumsfeld, who met with him in 1983. That's not going to happen. You know for a fact that he is not going to be able to call Donald Rumsfeld, but how much leeway will he be allowed to conduct his defense?
That -- those are the kinds of issues they're going to have to deal with that are -- that I don't think they've even begun to deal with.
HEMMER: We're hearing word again in about two minutes from now, we should get another videotape from inside that courtroom where the proceedings took place. Not quite sure what's on it, but we'll all find out together.
Jeff, hang with us here.
Also back to Christiane Amanpour for a second here.
Earlier in the week the national security adviser in Iraq, Christiane, called this the trial of the century. Do regular Iraqi people see it that way?
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, every time there's a big trial, it's the trial of the century. I think they mean that, you know, this is an early century, and this will be a very, very big trial.
And for the magnitude of the crimes that have been committed in Iraq over the last 35 years, you know, there's no doubt that it's going to be a very, very intense and probably quite a long trial process.
Remember, Saddam Hussein, we're told at this point, will not be the first to go on trial. Others, his former henchmen, former members of the regime, top members of the regime, we're told, will go on trial before him.
People in this country want to see justice done. And, as you know, justice can sometimes be harsh in this part of the world. There is the death penalty. It's just been reinstated after it was suspended during the occupation. It was reinstated after that transfer of sovereignty. And so, that will be a penalty -- the maximum penalty of this Iraqi special tribunal.
But really interestingly, and I don't know how much to make of it because it's just an informal straw poll. There was a radio talk show yesterday, and the host told us that, you know, there were hundreds of callers into the show. And about 45 percent of the callers said, yes, he should be punished and punished severely; and about 41 percent said he should be released.
I'm not sure whether that's reflective of what's going on, really, around the country, because I can tell you that talking to a lot of Iraqis who we get to talk to here in Baghdad, you know, they want to see him brought to justice. People talk about the years of fear they live in, the years of terror. People, mothers and fathers, you know, they still weep when they talk about their children being taken away from the dead of night.
I mean, read one report, I think it was either in the "New York Times" or "Washington Post" today. One woman saying that for 20 years she didn't dare tell her children that she had, had a brother who had been taken away when they were young because the brother had -- you know, at a party said something bad about Saddam Hussein, and he'd been taken off, never to be seen again.
And such was the fear of the tyranny of the big brother nature of this place that people didn't even dare speak about those incidents within their own families. They couldn't even trust members of their own family. Everybody was turned into an informer -- everybody, everywhere you went.
And I remember this as a reporter, and I'm not an Iraqi, just even the few times I came to Iraq under Saddam Hussein, just the notion of being able to talk freely was simply not possible.
So, so many people trying to recover from the brutality, not just physical but the mental brutality that they have suffered for so many years.
HEMMER: Take that point a step further here for us, if you could. And as I ask you this question, our viewers now know that the next videotape is now rolling. This is a different angle, off to Saddam Hussein's left, but again still speaking. Not quite sure if it's a repeated tape or whether or not it's from a different point in the proceedings today. There's been a concerned express, Christiane, that a trial of Saddam Hussein could widen the split between the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds, that they would take essentially take sides based on his guilt or innocence.
Now, we've seen surveys done back in early April, CNN-"USA Today" Gallup in Iraq -- well over 80 percent think he's guilty. But that poll you just mentioned, and Brent Sadler was reporting on it last night, more than 40 or 45 percent of those who responded to a radio survey say they think Saddam Hussein should be released. Put all of this together.
Is there concern that a split could be created between the three factions in Iraq?
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm not sure about that.
I think so many of the factions have been brutalized at one time or another, whether it was the Kurds, whether it was the Shiites.
For all the years of his regime, in one way or another, they were brutalized. But there were also mass killings, mass detentions of ordinary people, and many in the Sunni community as well.
Of course, the Sunni community did hold the power, the most favored ethnic group status, if you like, in Iraq, because of Saddam and because of his Baathist regime. Most of them were Sunnis.
But, you know, this is something that has brutalized the population from north to south, east and west, and I have not heard that theory that it could cause some kind of split, but I'll look into it.
HEMMER: Christiane, thanks.
And again, we ask you to stay with us there in Baghdad. The first Arab dictator to face a trial. That proceeding starts today.
How will the Arab world react to that -- not just the Iraqis, but the Arab world, Soledad, is something that will be examined in the many weeks and months and possibly years to come.
O'BRIEN: No question about it. I think we have time to get to one quick question.
I know that people are beginning to write in on e-mail, because I think you raised a good point, which is -- what's Saddam doing in this court proceeding, he already sort of took some steps to set up what could be his defense later on down the road, that he might be old and tired and lost weight, but he's not stupid.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: He looks pretty alert in these pictures, doesn't he? I mean, he's very much focused on what's going on, even though we don't understand the audio.
We are getting some letters. Mary from Valparaiso, Indiana writes, "Mr. Cafferty, you're so on the mark about Saddam. He was not a nice man by any means, but definitely not stupid. Theater? That's the understatement of the century."
John in North Beach, New Jersey: "I'm not defending Saddam, but if this is to be a fair trial, why was he brought before the judges without at least one attorney? Is this what happens in democracies?"
Donna in Miami: "Saddam should be charged on the very same laws that he used during his regime to brutally charge, murder, rape and incarcerate others. Therefore, they need no excuse to cut off his head."
Andrew in Pine Forest, Texas, asks the judge: "How do you get to the presumption of innocence in Saddam's trial given that world leaders and the media profess his guilt throughout the world 24/7? I believe he's guilty as charged. Will anyone assume he is innocent?"
If you have some thoughts on this story, and a big one it is, send it to am@cnn.com. And time permitting, we might get to a few more of these before 10:00.
O'BRIEN: All valid points and questions.
All right, Jack, thanks.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: Here at 9:00 in New York City, we want to welcome you if you're just joining us here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Let's reset for a moment here.
The images you're seeing on your screen are the first images we have seen of the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein facing an Iraqi judge earlier today. Seven preliminary charges read against him, charges ranging from the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprisings in 1991 -- that was immediately after the first Persian Gulf War -- political killings, religious killings, and the gassing of the Kurds in 1988. Seven preliminary charges.
Saddam Hussein one of 12 today to face an Iraqi judge. The other 11 proceedings, we understand, are still on the way. The status of those proceedings are not quite clear, but we do know a handful of those who will be facing a judge today, including Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister, and Chemical Ali, the man known and accused widely for his alleged involvement with the gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
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Aired July 1, 2004 - 8:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. Just coming up on half past this hour on this AMERICAN MORNING.
If you are just joining us, really it's been a remarkable day -- I think it's fair to say -- as we have seen, heard descriptions of Saddam Hussein appearing before an Iraqi court for the first time today. We're awaiting that videotape that was shot during those proceedings. We have not actually had a chance to see them. No audio -- the audio has been taken out of that videotape.
But we'll get a chance to see what Saddam Hussein looked like although we've been told what happened because, of course, our CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour was one of the very few journalists allowed inside that proceeding. What she has described is really pretty fascinating.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: And very, very vivid, too.
I want to get back to Baghdad quickly. We are told -- just a few moments away. On the screen now, this is the last image we saw of Saddam Hussein in December meeting with Ahmed Chalabi and two other Iraqi leaders at the time. Now, this is the first glimpse we have today of Saddam Hussein when the court proceedings got under way. Now, we anticipate this tape to roll forward at some time very soon.
Christiane Amanpour described him as rather clean-shaven but tired, and also "defeated" was the word she used. And many times she said he also appeared confused.
As we await this tape to roll, we'll keep the image on the screen. And back to Baghdad and Anderson Cooper for more there -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Christiane Amanpour was in the courtroom describing him as downcast, defeated and yet defiant.
As you look at this image, clearly a trimmed beard. The man has lost weight. Salem Chalabi who met with Saddam Hussein yesterday, estimating Hussein has lost between 11 and 12 pounds. This, interesting to see him with this beard. It's not something we saw him with during his reign in power. The mustache, of course, we are used to.
To explain a little bit why we're frozen on this image, this tape is available to all the networks at exactly the same moment. It is what we call a pool feed. This tape has been looked over by authorities here. They wanted to black out any faces of Iraqi participants whose faces they did not want shown. Some of the court officers and the like, for their own protection.
Security here is still a major issue. We are literally just getting this tape. We are seeing it for the first time. There is another image of Saddam Hussein responding. You're not hearing audio. We are just going to be seeing video at this point. It's still a point being negotiated as to whether or not we ultimately will hear some audio.
Saddam Hussein appearing somewhat disheveled, definitely a far cry from the President Saddam Hussein we are used to seeing, looking somewhat stunned there, blinking and yet defiant at times, pointing toward the Iraqi justice -- Bill.
HEMMER: Anderson, I apologize for the interruption here. Thanks for that.
This is the image now from Al-Jazeera. So the freeze frame now. This has gone into the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein. We don't expect audio. We're told by senior officials, by the U.S. government, that the audio will not be released. All of the proceedings done in Arabic. And we're also told it will be unedited.
So what we anticipate, based on what we've been hearing now up to this point, is that this tape may run for the next 30 minutes or so.
And again, Saddam Hussein appearing in court for the first time -- the first images we have had of him in the past seven months, going back to mid-December when he met with some senior Iraqi officials inside of what appeared to be a prison cell near the airport in Baghdad.
Back to Christiane Amanpour at the convention.
Christiane, I don't believe you can see this image from your location there, but we can see, just so you know, a tight picture of Saddam Hussein looking rather intense, at times talking as well. You were in the courtroom -- bring our viewers up-to-date based on what you saw and experienced today.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That is exactly right.
He was sitting in a chair after he had come in escorted by two Iraqi guards. He was not handcuffed when he came into the court. He was sat in the chair, faced the judge who was sitting with his back to the bank of cameras, with the Quran on the judge's table.
And Saddam Hussein, as I say, was looking alternately very intense sometimes with a wry smile to our bench where we were sitting, sometimes very defiant, trying to question the proceedings, trying to object to certain things that he was being told, but using his hands a lot, gesturing, asking please, when he wanted to interrupt the proceedings. Sometimes he was leaning with his elbow on the arm of the chair and his hand in his -- his head in his hand. Sometimes he had his hand over his face. He was stroking his beard. He was, basically -- look, he looked, for the most part, a defeated man, but there were times when he tried to raise his voice. It was quite hoarse.
I was quite surprised his voice was hoarse and fairly weak, but he did keep asking questions about why this was going on.
Again, we are still waiting for the full, formal transcript because as you said and we noted, this was all done in Arabic between Saddam Hussein and the lawyer.
There were no simultaneous translations. There was no consecutive translation. There was no formal translation that was done in that court. It was an Iraqi procedure: Iraqi judge, Iraqi court photo -- court reporters, Saddam Hussein, Iraqi judges -- and Iraqi guards rather. And therefore, this was done not with an international audience in mind inside the court.
So it will be a fairly sort of slowish process before we get all of the video out, because we've had to black out faces of those who don't want to be shown, for instance, the other Iraqis who were in there.
And we're still debating as to whether the actual sound will be released. It has not yet been. And we know that the judge was reluctant to do that and, in fact, we may not hear the sound, because he did not want this to be a showpiece for Saddam Hussein. He was afraid, if there would be an outburst, he didn't want that broadcast for people to see or hear, rather.
HEMMER: Christiane, to our viewers, if you're just joining us, seven preliminary charges read today in court. The charges involve the invasion of Kuwait back in August of 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprisings in 1991 -- that was after the first Persian Gulf War -- political killings, religious killings and the gassing of the Kurds in Halabja in 1988.
Based on the charges and when they were read -- and you've described his reaction to us early in our broadcast, but I want to go back to it only because you have told us earlier today that often times he was jabbing, jabbing his fingers toward the judge in that direction.
What was his reaction when the charges came forward?
AMANPOUR: Well, he specifically objected to the notion that he was being accused of invading Kuwait. He basically said that, I can't believe that you, as an Iraqi, would say this. We did this for the Iraqi people. And they were trying to lower the price of oil, trying to turn Iraqi women into prostitutes.
I mean, it was quite, sort of, colorful language, but he was basically saying, I wasn't invading Iraq, this was part of duty to help -- rather Kuwait -- to help defend the Iraqi people. And he basically said, he called the Kuwaitis dogs. And at that point, the judge said, "Don't use such words in a court. Let me remind you that you're now in a court of law and such language is not permitted."
So he also refused to sign the statement afterwards, the statement that acknowledged that he had been read his rights, that he understood what was going on, that he had the right to get a lawyer, at which point the judge said, fine. And the judge entered all of this, the fact that he understood what was going on and he had been read his rights and he entered it on behalf of the court and on behalf of Saddam Hussein. That is his right -- he is able to do that, the judge.
Saddam, at that point, asked if things were finished. The judge said, yes. And Saddam said hullah (ph). That was the last thing we heard him say, which means it's over, finished -- and he left.
O'BRIEN: Christiane, it's Soledad.
Quick question for you -- and before I get to it, actually let me just welcome our international viewers from CNNi who are joining us this morning, as well. You said that Saddam Hussein asked under whose jurisdiction is this court? And I know you've described him as both defiant and confused at times. So when he was asking that question, was that a defiant question or was that sort of a confused question?
AMANPOUR: That was quite subdued, that one. He wasn't sort of angry. He just kept insisting who is the judge? Who is the court? What is it? Under what jurisdiction? And he sort of was looking around.
At that point, that was very early on -- just a few minutes after he had sat down. And at that point he was, you know, still looking a little stunned, a little lost that this man who obviously was omnipotent at one point now was at the mercy of a court of law and he didn't quite know what was going on. And he kept insisting that he was the president and that he had - he should not be tried in this instance, that the occupation did not have -- did not mean he was stripped of his title.
The judge reminded him that under international law, the occupation and the occupiers have the right to strip him of his right. He reminded him that he was a prisoner of war under the occupation, not president. And this was sort of like a debate that was going back and forth between them for quite a long time.
And it was interesting because it's one thing for Saddam Hussein to try to say what he wants to say, but it's another to have somebody who, you now, for all those years would have lived in fear of this man, actually coming back, making legal arguments, telling him what was what, and how things were to be done.
And at no point did the judge appear to flinch, did he appear to feel that he was in some kind of an awkward position. He was just very matter of fact, very professional and basically got on with the job.
HEMMER: Christiane, stand by there in Baghdad.
Jeff Toobin also is with us today, our senior legal analyst with a question as well.
JEFF TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Christiane, I was wondering about the charges other than the Kuwait charges, the charges broadly defined relating to murder, the genocide, the gassing of the Kurds -- did you have a sense of what his defense is to those charges? Is he saying that he didn't know it took place or he didn't order it? Did he address it at all specifically?
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm going to have to beg to see the official final translation on that. The only thing I can tell you is that on the Halabja account, he basically said I've heard about that in the media as well. They said it happened during the reign of President Saddam Hussein.
Well, that seemed to be a non-acceptance of responsibility. It just seemed to be that he was saying, that yes, it happened. But we need to get the full transcript. At that point, he didn't really give his defenses, except for about the Kuwaiti issue, as I told you, when he basically denied that it was an invasion or an occupation or anything. He said this was in order for me to defend the rights of the Iraqi people.
TOOBIN: It just...
AMANPOUR: And then, again, he kept -- go ahead.
TOOBIN: Well, it just underlines how much -- what a task it is ahead for this tribunal, to get the actual evidence that he didn't authorize or somehow supervise this. It is not at simple as, simply well it took place. He must be responsible. There is going to be a need to get actual evidence, witnesses, documents and testimony.
AMANPOUR: Well, exactly. And you talk to any criminal lawyer, human rights lawyer, lawyers who try these kinds of -- the maximum importance, there is no more serious charge than genocide and crimes against humanity. And those, we believe, are going to be contained eventually in the formal indictment. These are preliminary charges. Then the investigation and the evidence has to be collected.
The judge -- the investigating judge who was there today will, for a period of time, question Saddam Hussein, question witnesses, question, perhaps, other detainees. We're being told that the tribunal, the special Iraqi tribunal will be offering plea bargains to others who are also being brought before this process.
Many of them -- perhaps, it's done already -- but there were 11 other top regime members who were going to face this judge for the arraignment after Saddam was finished.
And we're told that some of them may be willing to talk in return for either leniency or whatever they're offered in a plea bargain. But that, we believe, will be offered to those people, if they come forward and say what -- if they come forward and speak against Saddam Hussein and provide testimony on those issues.
And we already know that yesterday when Salem Chalabi and the judge went to Saddam Hussein -- and again some of these others, the 11 others that are being charged along with him -- and informed them they were now under official Iraqi legal custody, they were no longer POWs, they were now in the Iraqi legal system.
One of them -- we believe it was Saddam's personal secretary who also had a lot of executive power -- basically kept saying I did nothing, I knew nothing, I did nothing wrong. So they're hoping that they may be able to get some of the others to testify against Saddam.
HEMMER: Christiane, just so our viewers, in case you're just joining us, this is what we understand is happening here. This is the feed that has been sent out from Baghdad. You saw it go to black earlier. We're not quite sure why. But it's our understanding that they are essentially changing tapes. And while that process happens, we're going back and forth between this pool tape and what's happening in Al-Jazeera.
Why the images are different, we're not quite sure yet. But it's our understanding, that the reason why there is no sound, is that the U.S. senior officials there in Baghdad did not allow, essentially, any microphones in this courtroom. The tape has been screened, but the tape we're watching has not been edited. That does not appear to be the case in Al-Jazeera. Now what that matters in the end, we're not quite sure.
But just so our viewers know, this is the first time we're seeing this videotape. As we go throughout the morning we'll try to sort out a lot of these matters for you.
AMANPOUR: What I can tell you about that is there were three or four cameras in there. There was Al-Jazeera. There was CNN, which was acting for pool. There was an Iraqi network, Al-Iraqiya and there was Combat Camera as well. The issue of the sound was the Iraqi judge said that he didn't want the sound. Sound has been recorded. It has been recorded by the Combat Camera. The question is, will it be released or not?
Now, the reason perhaps you're seeing some edits on the pool tape that you're seeing is because we were instructed that, if the camera had caught any Iraqis on camera, then they had to be edited out or their faces have to be digitally disguised, because the Iraqi guards, for instance, the Iraqi court reporters, any other members of the procedure there did not want to be shown on camera.
This is still a place where fear reigns. And there are still people loyal to Saddam Hussein who have been waging this terror campaign over the last many, many months. And the Iraqis who are taking part in this and involved in this court process are worried about their identities being revealed.
Now, I don't know what you're seeing on Al-Jazeera. And I was under the impression that Al-Jazeera was under the same restrictions and that this whole thing was a pool, but we'll wait and see the remaining tape that we're able to get out. They were trying to get a quick few minutes out so that we could broadcast it, but the whole process did take 30 minutes.
O'BRIEN: The pictures we've been seeing on Al-Jazeera are, just seem to be the similar setup, but of course different angles, different shots -- a tighter shot -- of Saddam Hussein. So as we go back and forth, you sort of see the difference.
We should tell our viewers and you, as well, Christiane, that senior U.S. officials told us they have decided to release the tape without sound. They say that that they did not allow any mics in the courtroom and that is why we're hearing it without sound. But I realize, as you say, the Combat Camera was recording sound, so there is some sound recorded somewhere.
My question for you, Christiane, is what some have said this morning about what we heard in -- or what was heard in the courtroom -- and what you heard in the courtroom, to some degree sets up his defense: essentially challenges to the legitimacy of the court, challenges to the proceedings as a whole, challenges to the facts, challenges to, you know, the basic defense of Halabja, I don't know anything about it; I've done nothing wrong.
Do you think that that's a fair assessment?
AMANPOUR: It won't be a defense in court, that he has to have his lawyers build a proper defense.
You know, the issue is -- you know, I watched the Milosevic, the beginnings of the trial of Slobodan Milosevic, and Milosevic was much, much more defiant than Saddam Hussein: I mean, formally refusing to recognize the court, refusing to have a lawyer, demanding that he represent himself, turning the whole thing into a political platform for himself.
The Iraqis say that they will not allow -- they've learned from that tribunal -- and they will not allow that to happen here.
HEMMER: Christiane, also as we're watching this videotape, we should point out yet again, 11 others expected to appear in court today. People like the deputy prime minister, the former deputy prime minister, Tariq Aziz, best known as the spokesman throughout the 1990s -- his work not only in Baghdad, but is so often appearing in Washington, D.C. and New York City, for that matter; Ali Hassan al- Majid, known at Chemical Ali; former vice president Taha Yassin Ramadan and several others.
Do we expect videotape from these other 11 appearances?
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. I broke away after Saddam Hussein in order to be able to report this, but the pool cameras are still there, and those 11 are probably halfway through, if not through their process right now.
They were coming in all together. They were being flown, like Saddam was flown, by helicopter from his place of detention to the base where this ad-hoc courtroom has been established now. It's a building that is not a courthouse but is being used as a courthouse, and in fact, is being used in some of the court-martial proceedings for the U.S. military personnel over the Abu Ghraib situation.
So that is being used for this process, for this initial part of this process, anyway. And the other 11 were being brought in after Saddam Hussein had been taken back to his place of detention, and they were being taken into a holding room there. And then one by one, they would go in and face the judge and have a similar process of being asked their name, being asked to state for the record what their age and their name is, read their rights, told of their right to counsel, et cetera.
We were told that although Saddam Hussein was allowed to go for 30 minutes, back and forth with him and the judge, the others would have no longer than about 10 minutes, we're told.
HEMMER: Christiane, help us understand how you, about two hours, ago described Saddam Hussein as confused. I think you used the word at least twice. When we watch this videotape, he appears very attentive and very with it. You use the word defiant as well. We can't hear the audio, so we can't really categorize that. But could you put that into words for us. How did he appear confused to you?
AMANPOUR: You know, it progressed. I mean, after he came in, as I said, when he came in, the description is that he looked very surprised, a little bit lost. His head was down. He was sat down. He sort of sat there, and he looked very quiet and defeated.
As the process went on, he became more animated. He was talking to the judge. He kept asking please when he wanted to break in and ask him a question. And by the end, he was quite defiant. But it wasn't a defiance -- it wasn't loud. It wasn't brutal. It wasn't a violent sort of vocal defiance. It was more insistent. It was -- some of it was wry. He would make wry asides, look at us, have a little smile and then say something regarding the process. But I said that he looked alternately all of those emotions.
HEMMER: Christiane, hang with us there in Baghdad. We'll watch this tape again for as long as it lasts here.
And Jeff Toobin is with me as well. Jeff, you've talked about and you've looked at this for several months now leading up to, in fact, this day and where we go after this day. One thing you're quite critical about is the witness protection problem. Why is that such a problem?
TOOBIN: You know, one of the things that this whole proceeding underlines is that there is going to be a need to gather evidence in this case. It is not simply enough to just put Saddam Hussein on trial and say everybody knows he's guilty. So you need people to testify against him. Look at how security has been so critical for everything in connection with Iraq since -- since the United States has been there -- or even over the past few days.
You've had the handover conducted virtually in secret. We've had this trial, or this proceeding, conducted under extraordinary security situation. You have the shot of -- the public shot of Saddam Hussein, which we're looking at on camera now, but making sure not to look at the other people in the courtroom because it's so dangerous for them.
The people most at risk will be the witnesses who testify against him. The Iraqi special tribunal is going to have to set up some sort of mechanism to protect those people. We have in the United States a witness protection program, but this is going to have to be a witness protection program on steroids.
HEMMER: Very true.
About 30 minutes ago, Jack Cafferty was sitting here and we were talking about the proceedings and how they've set them up. In a legal sense, does this appear to be a rush job?
TOOBIN: Well, you know so little has happened that it's very hard to say. This, in many respects, is the easy part. This, essentially, in -- to put it in American terms -- this is like an arraignment.
Saddam Hussein is being informed of the charges against him and told in a general sense what his rights are. That is not a very complex proceeding, and this one seems to be a perfectly ordinary arraignment. However, the hard part starts now.
What kind of witnesses -- what kind of defense will he be able to put on? We can be sure he is going to want to call, for example, Donald Rumsfeld, who met with him in 1983. That's not going to happen. You know for a fact that he is not going to be able to call Donald Rumsfeld, but how much leeway will he be allowed to conduct his defense?
That -- those are the kinds of issues they're going to have to deal with that are -- that I don't think they've even begun to deal with.
HEMMER: We're hearing word again in about two minutes from now, we should get another videotape from inside that courtroom where the proceedings took place. Not quite sure what's on it, but we'll all find out together.
Jeff, hang with us here.
Also back to Christiane Amanpour for a second here.
Earlier in the week the national security adviser in Iraq, Christiane, called this the trial of the century. Do regular Iraqi people see it that way?
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, every time there's a big trial, it's the trial of the century. I think they mean that, you know, this is an early century, and this will be a very, very big trial.
And for the magnitude of the crimes that have been committed in Iraq over the last 35 years, you know, there's no doubt that it's going to be a very, very intense and probably quite a long trial process.
Remember, Saddam Hussein, we're told at this point, will not be the first to go on trial. Others, his former henchmen, former members of the regime, top members of the regime, we're told, will go on trial before him.
People in this country want to see justice done. And, as you know, justice can sometimes be harsh in this part of the world. There is the death penalty. It's just been reinstated after it was suspended during the occupation. It was reinstated after that transfer of sovereignty. And so, that will be a penalty -- the maximum penalty of this Iraqi special tribunal.
But really interestingly, and I don't know how much to make of it because it's just an informal straw poll. There was a radio talk show yesterday, and the host told us that, you know, there were hundreds of callers into the show. And about 45 percent of the callers said, yes, he should be punished and punished severely; and about 41 percent said he should be released.
I'm not sure whether that's reflective of what's going on, really, around the country, because I can tell you that talking to a lot of Iraqis who we get to talk to here in Baghdad, you know, they want to see him brought to justice. People talk about the years of fear they live in, the years of terror. People, mothers and fathers, you know, they still weep when they talk about their children being taken away from the dead of night.
I mean, read one report, I think it was either in the "New York Times" or "Washington Post" today. One woman saying that for 20 years she didn't dare tell her children that she had, had a brother who had been taken away when they were young because the brother had -- you know, at a party said something bad about Saddam Hussein, and he'd been taken off, never to be seen again.
And such was the fear of the tyranny of the big brother nature of this place that people didn't even dare speak about those incidents within their own families. They couldn't even trust members of their own family. Everybody was turned into an informer -- everybody, everywhere you went.
And I remember this as a reporter, and I'm not an Iraqi, just even the few times I came to Iraq under Saddam Hussein, just the notion of being able to talk freely was simply not possible.
So, so many people trying to recover from the brutality, not just physical but the mental brutality that they have suffered for so many years.
HEMMER: Take that point a step further here for us, if you could. And as I ask you this question, our viewers now know that the next videotape is now rolling. This is a different angle, off to Saddam Hussein's left, but again still speaking. Not quite sure if it's a repeated tape or whether or not it's from a different point in the proceedings today. There's been a concerned express, Christiane, that a trial of Saddam Hussein could widen the split between the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds, that they would take essentially take sides based on his guilt or innocence.
Now, we've seen surveys done back in early April, CNN-"USA Today" Gallup in Iraq -- well over 80 percent think he's guilty. But that poll you just mentioned, and Brent Sadler was reporting on it last night, more than 40 or 45 percent of those who responded to a radio survey say they think Saddam Hussein should be released. Put all of this together.
Is there concern that a split could be created between the three factions in Iraq?
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm not sure about that.
I think so many of the factions have been brutalized at one time or another, whether it was the Kurds, whether it was the Shiites.
For all the years of his regime, in one way or another, they were brutalized. But there were also mass killings, mass detentions of ordinary people, and many in the Sunni community as well.
Of course, the Sunni community did hold the power, the most favored ethnic group status, if you like, in Iraq, because of Saddam and because of his Baathist regime. Most of them were Sunnis.
But, you know, this is something that has brutalized the population from north to south, east and west, and I have not heard that theory that it could cause some kind of split, but I'll look into it.
HEMMER: Christiane, thanks.
And again, we ask you to stay with us there in Baghdad. The first Arab dictator to face a trial. That proceeding starts today.
How will the Arab world react to that -- not just the Iraqis, but the Arab world, Soledad, is something that will be examined in the many weeks and months and possibly years to come.
O'BRIEN: No question about it. I think we have time to get to one quick question.
I know that people are beginning to write in on e-mail, because I think you raised a good point, which is -- what's Saddam doing in this court proceeding, he already sort of took some steps to set up what could be his defense later on down the road, that he might be old and tired and lost weight, but he's not stupid.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: He looks pretty alert in these pictures, doesn't he? I mean, he's very much focused on what's going on, even though we don't understand the audio.
We are getting some letters. Mary from Valparaiso, Indiana writes, "Mr. Cafferty, you're so on the mark about Saddam. He was not a nice man by any means, but definitely not stupid. Theater? That's the understatement of the century."
John in North Beach, New Jersey: "I'm not defending Saddam, but if this is to be a fair trial, why was he brought before the judges without at least one attorney? Is this what happens in democracies?"
Donna in Miami: "Saddam should be charged on the very same laws that he used during his regime to brutally charge, murder, rape and incarcerate others. Therefore, they need no excuse to cut off his head."
Andrew in Pine Forest, Texas, asks the judge: "How do you get to the presumption of innocence in Saddam's trial given that world leaders and the media profess his guilt throughout the world 24/7? I believe he's guilty as charged. Will anyone assume he is innocent?"
If you have some thoughts on this story, and a big one it is, send it to am@cnn.com. And time permitting, we might get to a few more of these before 10:00.
O'BRIEN: All valid points and questions.
All right, Jack, thanks.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: Here at 9:00 in New York City, we want to welcome you if you're just joining us here on AMERICAN MORNING.
Let's reset for a moment here.
The images you're seeing on your screen are the first images we have seen of the court proceedings with Saddam Hussein facing an Iraqi judge earlier today. Seven preliminary charges read against him, charges ranging from the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, suppression of the Kurdish and Shiite uprisings in 1991 -- that was immediately after the first Persian Gulf War -- political killings, religious killings, and the gassing of the Kurds in 1988. Seven preliminary charges.
Saddam Hussein one of 12 today to face an Iraqi judge. The other 11 proceedings, we understand, are still on the way. The status of those proceedings are not quite clear, but we do know a handful of those who will be facing a judge today, including Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister, and Chemical Ali, the man known and accused widely for his alleged involvement with the gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
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