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The Life, Death Of Alexander Hamilton; The Battle For Middle America Begins; Why Cell Phone Users Cast Aside Courtesy

Aired July 11, 2004 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: From New York City, America's capitol, this is IN THE MONEY.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JACK CAFFERTY, HOST: Welcome to the program. I'm Jack Cafferty. Coming up on today's edition of IN THE MONEY, The battle for Middle America: See why one author thinks the U.S. heartland has been voting against its wallet. As Edwards teams up with Kerry, we'll take a look to see if there's any chance of that changing.

And the father of our money, Alexander Hamilton, the first to run America's Treasury and the country a national bank. Also killed 200 years ago today in a duel with Aaron Burr not far very far from where we're bringing you this program. As the country marks the anniversary of that gunfight, we'll take a look at Hamilton's life.

And cell hell: Courtesy goes out the window when the cell phone rings. We'll get inside the minds of people who can get on your nerves. Boy can they, with their mobile phone manners.

Joining me today, a couple of our IN THE MONEY veterans, CNN correspondent, Susan Lisovicz, "Fortune" magazine editor-at-large, Andy Serwer.

This week, once again, Secretary of Homeland Security Tom ridge holds a briefing for the press and says, "We have creditable intelligence that is leading us to believe that there could be a major attack in the United States this summer," at that it's aimed, supposedly, based on the intelligence, at our political process. What do you make of that?

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Well, I think it's so interesting you hear that the al-Qaeda wants "disrupt" our political process or our democratic process -- but, what does that mean? Does that mean they want to throw the election to the democrats or they want Bush to win? Is -- or are they thinking like that at all? And the other question to me is if there is a terrorist act, will people rally around the president? Would it be good for President Bush?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, obviously, any terror attack would be terrible. And we've heard these warnings before, basically to stay on guard. About what? We don't necessarily know. Where? What manner? We don't know. It's just every so often these officials -- security officials, whether it's Tom Ridge or somebody from Justice, telling us that this may happen. It's sort of information that we'd know already, I mean, certainly nobody would forget 9/11.

CAFFERTY: And even if they didn't -- if they didn't say anything and they assumed that we knew already and something happened and it was learned they had some kind of intelligence suggesting it might happen and they didn't tell us, there would be hell to pay until, from now as far as the eye can see. I mean, they're in a very tough situation.

LISOVICZ: Absolutely.

CAFFERTY: If they come out -- you know, periodically and say, look -- you know, this could happen, people say, oh, we know, leave us alone -- you know, tell us when you got something specific. But, God forbid something like 9/11 happens again and they didn't say anything. That wouldn't be any good, either. So, I don't know what the answer is. But that political question is interesting.

SERWER: And who knows what they're thinking or are they thinking. That's what's interesting to me.

CAFFERTY: And these two big conventions coming up, Boston and New York, this summer, so...

LISOVICZ: And the Olympics.

CAFFERTY: And the Olympics. Those are in Athens. Yeah, all right.

Look beyond the East and West coast, you'll find plenty of voters with some firm ideas about democrats. For example, they're elitists who can recommend a nice French chardonnay, but can't find their way to church on Sunday. But the democrats are gambling that John Edwards maybe can break that stereotype. The running mate John Kerry picked this week has blue collar roots, Methodist credentials, and he's got a pretty good way with a phrase, as well. He also has an accent you don't pick up at Yale, even though that's -- did he go to Yale? I don't guess he did.

SERWER: No he didn't.

CAFFERTY: No Kerry went to Yale.

SERWER: North Carolina State.

CAFFERTY: All right, for a look how Middle America votes and whether it's voting smart, Thomas Frank joins us from Washington, the author of "What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America."

Tom, nice to have you with us. Thanks for joining us.

TOM FRANK, AUTHOR, "WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS?": Thank you very much for having me. CAFFERTY: So, take John Edwards, put him into the equation, we kind of laid out there in the introductions, and read the tea leaves for me. What does he bring to that part of the country? Some of which is critical to this election.

FRANK: Yeah, I think it was really wise choice by Kerry, I mean, if you want my opinion, I have no idea why you would want my opinion, but...

CAFFERTY: Well, that's why we invited you on the show, Tom.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANK: I know. I mean, it's very kind of you, and I'm -- you know, it's wonderful.

CAFFERTY: Well, we're a nice bunch of people on IN THE MONEY.

FRANK: And, I mean, nobody's ever asked for it before and so, it's a -- you know, it's great honor. But listen...

CAFFERTY: Well, you have something to tell your kids about.

FRANK: I think -- yeah, exactly. I think it's an excellent choice because it -- because Edwards does have the ability to disrupt the conservative narrative of-- you know, the red state/blue state narrative, where people in the heartland in the red states are automatically this sort of "salt of the earth," middle Americans, republicans represent real Americans, where as democrats speak for this devitalized talllized -- you know, coastal elite with their lattes and their -- you know, their chardonnays and this sort of thing...

LISOVICZ: And that's...

FRANK: And that's -- I'm sorry.

LISOVICZ: And that's what I wanted to ask you about, that whole elitist thing is coming out in this election in a big way, the senator from Massachusetts, the most liberal senator in the Senate and on and on, does Edwards soften that with the general population, in your view?

FRANK: I -- there's no question about it. He's definitely -- he definitely does. And it's funny that you say that the -- you know, the elitism thing is coming out, it comes out in every election year and it's been doing that ever since the late 1960s, when this is basically the republicans discovered that speaking to this particular kind of class anger was a way of turning the tables on the democrats and speaking to the traditional constituency of the democrats which is -- you know, blue collar voters and what's and it's -- they've done a particularly good job of pinning this label to John Kerry and that's what's great about Edwards is, you can't attach it to him.

CAFFERTY: Well, doesn't...

FRANK: In fact...

CAFFERTY: Doesn't Kerry's voting record sort of attach the label to him without anybody making much of an effort?

FRANK: Well, he's liberal but -- you know, so what? So are factory workers in Detroit, that's -- you know. The problem is "liberal elite." This is -- this is the question and -- you know, Kerry is obviously a member of the upper class in America. But, Edwards speaks the old language of populism, he understands where...

CAFFERTY: I get it.

FRANK: ...where it's not people in -- you know, Kansas versus liberal elites in New York drinking chardonnay, but it's workers in management, it's the upper class and working class. It...

SERWER: That's what I want to talk about that, Thomas and sometimes they drink merlot, too. We've been taking -- oh, I'm on my own again.

CAFFERTY: Yeah.

SERWER: Listen, republicans talk about this liberal elite, yet, to me, the biggest elite in this country are CEO's and top corporate officers, and if you want to talk about and elite, I mean these are the wealthiest people in the United States and they are overwhelmingly republican. Why haven't the democrats been able to make hay out of that?

FRANK: You know, that's a -- that's an excellent question and if had my way, if they were -- if -- you know, if they were asking me my opinion, like you guys are, they would have been doing this for a long time. Because that's -- you know, it would be very -- that's the -- that's the way democrats used to do it and they used to be the majority party in this country, remember, they used to win elections all the time. And they, in my opinion, they certainly, they obviously should be doing that, especially in the environment that we're in. With -- you know, Ken Lay being indicted just today, I mean, or yesterday, whatever it was. This is a -- you know, this is -- this is, to me, this seems obvious. The reason they haven't done it for so long is because, well, because of the money. If you talk that old language of economic populism, the problems is that you -- you know, the campaign contributions from business dry up pretty quickly.

CAFFERTY: What about a guy like Ralph Nader, and to what degree does he get into the constituencies of these parties to the degree that he's able, perhaps if he stays in, to do what he did a last time, which is to affect the outcome of the election.

FRANK: I don't know. You know, I'll confess I voted for Nader last time. Hell, I even in '96

SERWER: You've being very honest today, Tom.

FRANK: Yeah. I'm not voting for him this time. CAFFERTY: Are you sure you want to admit that stuff on national TV, Tom? I'm mean, you know.

FRANK: It is embarrassing, isn't it?

CAFFERTY: Yeah, a little bit, yeah.

FRANK: Yeah.

SERWER: You tell us.

FRANK: But, if I -- look, and I'm not voting for him this time, so that should tell you something.

CAFFERTY: Why not?

FRANK: Well I - -you know, I wasn't a big fan of President Clinton and didn't like Al Gore, either. And Ralph Nader was -- you know, he spoke to my concerns and he talked about the things that I could see and he made sense.

CAFFERTY: Why won't you vote for him this time?

FRANk: I'm happy with Kerry.

CAFFERTY: Oh, you like Kerry.

FRANK: Yeah, I like Kerry, and I like Edwards even more, I think they're -- I think they're great.

CAFFERTY: Yeah, we've learned a lot of your opinions here, Tom, and it's been an interesting exercise for us.

SERWER: You're too honest for TV.

CAFFERTY: And I really appreciate you being so forthcoming. It's nice to have you with us.

FRANK: Hey, anytime.

CAFFERTY: All right. Tom Frank, whose the author of "What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America,"

We're going to let Madison Avenue win your hearts with some commercials, here. But when we come back, 10 buck Al: We'll look at Alexander Hamilton, he's the one on the $10 bill, the guy who fired up the U.S. Treasury, the guy who got his brains blown out by Aaron Burr in a duel 200 years ago.

Plus, take it outside: Find out what makes some cell phone users act like they're living in their personal phone booth with you.

And camps go cheap: From trips around the world to a week in a cabin. Summer camp's big business, we'll take a look at that as well. Stick around, you're watching IN THE MONEY, how lucky for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: When it comes to staying connected, Motorola has go you covered. Ranked as the world's second largest cell phone maker behind Nokia, Motorola also markets for wireless networking, broadband communications, and automobile circuitry. And it's even trying its hand at politics. Teaming up with "Rock the Vote" to encourage and educate young adults about the importance of getting to the polls.

But, delays in getting products to market and growing competition from companies like Samsung, have Motorola scrambling to keep up. However, industry experts say Motorola's new CEO Edward Zander may be just what the doctor ordered. The former hear of Sun Microsystems is known for his rapid restructurings and effective marketing strategies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: Money, sex, politics, gunfire. The story of Alexander Hamilton has it all and then some. Hamilton took a fatal bullet 200 years ago today in a dual with Vice President Bur. It happened just across the Hudson River from where this program is being broadcast, in the talk of Weehawken, New Jersey, is where that gunfight took place. If you weren't asleep during high school history, you probably remember that Hamilton wrote the Federalist Papers, he wrote a lot of other stuff, too. He also played a big role in shaping how America handles its money. Here with some more on this famous American is Ron Chernow who's the author of the new Alexander Hamilton biography by the same name as the man. He's also an essayist and radio commentator.

Nice to have you with us, welcome.

RON CHERNOW, AUTHOR "ALEXANDER HAMILTON": Great please, Jack. Thank you.

CAFFERTY: So, how do you feel about taking Hamilton's picture off the $10 bill and putting President Reagan's picture there?

CHERNOW: Well, I'm not anti-Reagan, but I'm violently -- maybe violently is the wrong word, I'm strongly pro-Hamilton, because I feel this is somebody who really created the federal government, when he became the first Treasury secretary. He had to invent from scratch the first tax system, first budget system, first accounting system, furst central bank, he created the Coast Guard, he crated the customs service...

CAFFERTY: Wow.

CHERNOW: No discredit to President Reagan to say his accomplishments were not quite on that level.

CAFFERTY: Well, they weren't, of course.

SERWER: Ron, he is really revered by people in the know on Wall Street, admittedly there are not that many people in the know on Wall Street, but people in the know down there really revere him has sort of the father of Wall Street. What do you think he would say about our system today, about the nation today?

CHERNOW: Well, you know, if you go back to the founder era, Thomas Jefferson wanted us to be a nation of sturdy home and farmers and agriculture is a very small part of it. It was Hamilton who had this prophetic vision that the American economy should also have banks, stock exchanges, manufacturing corporations, there were considered very, very wicked things of the 18th century and Hamilton was a lonely voice arguing for them, but of course, he was demonized for it. So, I think that if Hamilton came back today, he's the one founder that would look around with a feeling of comfort and satisfaction. I think...

LISOVICZ: I've created...

CHERNOW: I think some of the Virginia planters, Madison, Jefferson, might blanch with horror in terms of the economy.

LISOVICZ: But, you know, I visited his grave many, many times because it's right at Trinity Church in the graveyard, right across the street from the New York Stock Exchange and one of the things that you write, which is so interesting, is that you need the poetry and the prose in government, Jefferson was the poetry, Hamilton was the prose and this man who accomplished so much as first Treasury Secretary was a man, of very modest, it's an incredible story.

CHERNOW: He's an illegitimate orphan kid that grows up in the Caribbean, he comes out of nowhere. I mean, this is a story that a novelist couldn't have invented. When he's 17 years old, he's toiling away as a clerk in a trading house in Saint Croy. Five years later, age 22, he's aid de camp to George Washington, by 34, he's the first Treasury secretary, it's a phenomenal story.

CAFFERTY: He sounds like a bit of eccentric. I mean, who would sit around in, what, the 1700s and think about the stock exchange and all of these other things that he got -- not only thought about, but wound up creating. I mean, little bit eccentric fellow?

CHERNOW: Eccentric, certainly visionary. You know, when I was researching the book, I call up the archivist at the New York Stock Exchange and said if you go back to the early 1790s, how many securities were traded? This was very interesting, there were five securities, there were three issues of Treasury securities, there was the stock of the Bank of New York, and there was the stock of Bank of the United States, the First Central bank. All five of those securities had been created by Alexander Hamilton. So, when you say he was the patron saint of Wall Street, you can say that quite literally, and as you were saying, he was buried right near Wall Street.

LISOVICZ: Well you know, he was mortal person, he was not a god, and the fact is the duels, as I understand it, were illegal, but he and Burr had it out for each other, so they rode across the Hudson to get to New Jersey, a secluded spot, to kill each other. CHERNOW: Duels were common, but there were illegal in New York, they were illegal in New Jersey, people rode across to New Jersey. to the "Soprano" turf there, to have the duels.

(LAUGHTER)

CAFFERTY: A legend that probably lives probably there to this day.

CHERNOW: Duels were treated more leniently in New Jersey, but Aaron Burr, who was the sitting vice president, at the time, is indicted for murder in two states, he's a fugitive from justice, so where does he go? Of course, he goes to Washington D.C., where he presides over a famous impeachment trial in the Senate. Of course, Hamilton's admirers were horrified that Burr, who was wanted for murder in two states, was officiating at this impeachment trial in Washington D.C. The pen (PH) did a very good job.

SERWER: Ron, let me ask you a little bit about your career and your books. I read "Titan" which was fabulous, about John D. Rockefeller, haven't gotten to Hamilton, yet. How do you choose your subjects? You spend so much time writings the mammoth books.

CHERNOW: Well, I think I gravitate to these large, but also flawed figures. Hamilton was a flawed figure, in fact, while he was Treasury secretary, he not only is writing these great State Papers and creating the federal government, he stumpables into a year-long sexual affair with a woman named...

LISOVICZ: No.

SERWER: This book has it all.

CHERNOW: Reynolds -- yes, ends up paying blackmail money to Mr. Reynolds. So, I look for dramatic stories. I look for figures whom I think are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and also people like Rockefeller, like Hamilton, people whom I feel some big trend in American economic or political life.

SERWER: All right, we're going to have to leave it that that. Ron Chernow, author of "Alexander Hamilton." Thank you very much.

CHERNOW: It was fun (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CAFFERTY: Good to have you on.

SERWER: Time to let the ad people do their song and dance. We'll return after the break.

Coming up, Microsoft's out with a billion announcement. See if that number was big enough to shake up the stock.

Plus living out loud: Find out why some cell phone users can't seem to keep it to themselves.

And space race: We'll tell you about the online land rush after John Kerry named his running mate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LISOVICZ: Now, the week's top stories in our "Money Minute." Former Enron chairman, Ken Lay, pleaded not guilty to 11 criminal counts against him, they including wire fraud, securities fraud, and making false and misleading statements. Lay surrendered to the FBI authorities Thursday morning one day after be was indicted by the grand jury in Houston he did the infamous perk walk. He was released on $500,000 bail. Lay is the 31st person or entity, for that matter, charged in the Enron investigation.

And while we're on the corporate crime beat, also this week, another setback for Martha Stewart. Her obstruction of justice conviction will not be thrown out. A federal judge denied Stewart's request for a new trial based on allegations that a government expert lied on the witness stand. The judge said the testimony did not affect the jury's verdict. Stewart is expected to be sentenced later this month, a matter of days, for that matter.

And fewer people are curling up with a good book these days or so says the National Endowment for the Art. A new survey finds that fewer than half of American adults have read a novel, short story or play in the past year, but they do watch this program.

SERWER: Yeah, they should. A little belt tightening for a company with $56 billion in the bank -- $56 billion. Microsoft CEO, Steve Ballmer, outlined a plan this week to shed $1 billion in costs. The reason, Ballmer says expenses have grown faster than revenues for the past three years. Let's check out the stock, it's hovered around the price for quite some time, that makes Microsoft the stock of the week. Actually, it's a lot worse than that. The stock's gone from $60 in late '99 to $20, today. A lot of shareholders very ticked off. Fifty-six billion dollars in cash, there are 10 billion shares, I'll do the math, that's $5.66 a share in cash. And this company -- you know, has done a lot of things, but it's never really made any money in anything except operating software and application software. What are they going to do here?

LISOVICZ: Well, two things, obviously. If you're talking about share price, you can raise the dividend or do a share buyback program, that's two things. But, the other thing is, right -- we're at this critical stage now, we've had this week, all these warnings from software companies and some analysts are blaming the mudling market waiting for Microsoft to report later this month, to get a better idea where the tech sector is.

CAFFERTY: What's wrong with the way they're doing business? And I ask that in the sense they've gotten a lot of monopoly problems behind them, they've made settlements with a lot of state's attorneys general around the country, I think they've got the cases in Europe pretty much in hand. Why isn't the company doing any better than it is? Are they the poster boy for the computer industry, out there? Why isn't Microsoft doing anything?

SERWER: Well, I think that actually a lot of the litigation really isn't over, that's sort of No. 1, that it hangs like a -- you know, anvil over their heads and they haven't cleared it up completely, especially in Europe. And then the other thing is freeware, Linux, free operating software, out there, making inroads. And what happened in Europe, in particular, Jack, they ticked off a lot of countries, and so the countries just said, OK, we're going to stop buying -- you know, Microsoft Office, we're going to buy Linux instead. So, on the margin, Linux is bothering? That's why Microsoft is looking at companies like SAP, which to me is Germany gobbly-gook, and I'm so glad they decided not to buy that company. They're looking at acquisitions like that, you know. And think about if you're an employee, though. Here's a company, $56 billion of cash and by the way, we're going to cut the towels in your locker rooms. You know.

LISOVICZ: And no layoffs. And the other thing about Microsoft is at this interesting time, because on the one hand you've gotten used to these enormous growth for tech companies, right? Well, it's still growing, it's still double digit growth, it just ain't that meteoric growth. So that's one. But, the other hand, it's a maturing company, and it's the 800 pound gorilla, at that. So, how do you straddle these two and keep investors happy?

CAFFERTY: Well, the investors obviously aren't happy these days.

LISOVICZ: Are unhappy.

CAFFERTY: And with good reason, I mean the stock came down, split adjusted from 120 bucks down to around 60, now it's from 60 down to around 30. Well, they haven't raised the dividend, they got all this money, and the shareholders are kind of getting on of these "who cares" kind of looks.

LISOVICZ: Well, that's why there was a 4,900 word memo out from Steve Ballmer.

SERWER: Right. Right. We'll investors say it's no longer a growth stock, not a value stock, either so. We'll be checking it out.

There's much more ahead on IN THE MONEY. Come up ahead, phone- zilla: We'll look at why so many people with cell phones act like the rest of us simply don't exist.

Plus, cabin fever: Summer camp booming including big ticket options. Find out why for some campers bus is out and the plane is in.

And, street justice for cell phone abusers: See how a couple of pranksters took the problem into their own hands -- or feet on our fun side of the week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LISOVICZ: Cell phones have turned sitting around waiting for a call into one of those quaint retro activities like a quilting bee or a barn raising or sending a letter through the mail, but helpful as it may be, there's a flipside to that flip phone in your life and it comes out when people pick up the mobile and drop their good manners. For more about that, we're joined by James Katz, professor of communications at Rutgers University. He's also the author of "Perpetual Contact, Mobile Communication, Private Talk and Public Performance." Welcome.

JAMES KATZ, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: Hello.

LISOVICZ: You know, professor, I was on a Washington to New York Amtrak train, it was a no cell phone car. The poor guy in the car picked up his cell phone and I thought there was going to be a public lynching. People have had it with cell phone manners, bad cell phone manners. Why is it that we get so irritated about people using their cell phones?

KATZ: Well, there's something about the way that we're hard wired, I believe, that makes it very hard for us to ignore half the conversation. Millions of years of evolution have prepared us to engage the people around us and when they're yakking to some unseen other, it just gets us whipped up but we don't really know what's going on.

SERWER: James, in defense of cell phones, it's sort of an opposite example of what happened to Susan. I was on a bus and I was talking on some cell phone. Some older lady told me to stop talking and I asked her if she just felt neglected or ignored or she was lonely and I reminded her that my conversation on my cell phone was no louder than if I was sitting next to someone talking.

There's nothing wrong with cell phones. Get used to it. How many lives have cell phones saved? Hunters, people lost in the woods, I'm sure it's saved a lot of people. I'm trying to -- this is me preaching to Jack Cafferty here a little bit, but if people can't handle it, maybe they should be somewhere where there aren't any cell phones, don't you think?

KATZ: Well, I think there are very few places where there are no cell phones and those few places are about to be populated anyway. Some countries, about 99 percent of the people in the country are cell phone users. So I think this is a trend that is only going to gather strength.

What I would say is important here, is something that social scientists call the actor observer paradox. That is that, when you need a mobile phone and you need to make a call or get a call, that's great and other people should understand. On the other hand, when other people are doing that and they're disturbing your privacy, your solitude, then they're being rude and discourteous. So it really depends on whose ox is being gored.

CAFFERTY: You talked about the fact that we're sort of hardwired to hear both sides of the conversation.

KATZ: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Doesn't the cell phone irritability quotient have a lot to do with what's being discussed? I got no problem hearing somebody call and say, may I speak to the doctor, please, I'd like to find out how my son who was in an accident last night is doing. But to listen to some pretentious twit in a restaurant talking to some other pretentious twit someplace else in New York.

SERWER: Sometimes we have to talk, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Yes. About -- or on the bus that Andy was on about what kind of wine ought to be served with some piece of dead fish in light of the fact that he's going out with somebody from Harvard Univ -- I mean, some of this stuff makes my teeth hurt.

I've never owned a cell phone. I'm 61 years old. I don't feel the slightest bit slighted or neglected. I don't have a car phone. I don't have pagers. I don't have any of that stuff and yet I seem to get through my days OK and I'd like to think I get through my days without making everybody around me ready to take a shot at me. Isn't there something about the stuff that people use these phones for that just...

KATZ: (INAUDIBLE) We certainly understand emergencies. We certainly understand when people need to do something. At the same time, we find that these other types of calls really do grate on us. And I think just the mere fact that other people are showing that they're not that engaged with you even though they're sharing the space with you.

CAFFERTY: I don't want (INAUDIBLE) I just want them to be quiet.

KATZ: Let me point out that not all those people are actually talking to somebody else. In surveys I've done, about 26 percent of the people we interview admit that sometimes they've pretended to be talking on the mobile phone just to impress the people around them.

LISOVICZ: Well, it does just the opposite. You know, James, interesting developments this week. Ken Lay indicted, press all over in Houston. There's his attorney surrounded by camera people and reporters and his cell phone goes off and he very politely apologizes and turned it off. Why can't people just exercise a little bit of restraint? There was a reason why phone booths came with the first phone. In other words, talk softly, you know don't talk at length in a public environment, in a yoga studio or in a board meeting. Why don't people just sort of get it? It seems like our parents taught us good manners when we were growing up.

KATZ: Well, yes. We expect other people to use good manners at all times and they should. However, we also sometimes feel, well, maybe it's an important call and maybe if I could just handle this one call, that would save me lots of hours. Other people around us need to quote, understand our situation. And that's really where the conflict comes in because we assume other people will understand our situation, but we don't. We don't understand their situation.

SERWER: James, I'm going to ask our viewers if they want to go to our website and make a donation to get Jack a cell phone. I'm not sure who would call him. By the way Jack, that was a '98 merlot that I was talking about with my friend in the restaurant. CAFFERTY: It's a good thing I (INAUDIBLE) You know, the other thing about telephones -- I just -- I have noticed in all these years when the phone rings it's very seldom something that you want to hear. It's I need, I want, it's broken, I can't --

LISOVICZ: Your parents.

CAFFERTY: It's never somebody calling saying, guess what, I'm going to drop by a few thousand dollars or you've won a new car.

KATZ: I have to say Jack, as one of those unusual people because, even if you don't, most of us even if we don't want to have a cell phone, our friends and family will say, oh, you really need to get one. Oh, I'm worried, I might need to get a hold of you so you should get one. And I tried calling and you didn't pick up. Why weren't you there? So it's not only our own wishes, but the wishes of the people in our social network that are really driving a lot of this behavior.

SERWER: Just quickly James, I mean it seems like people are talking on these phones because they don't want to think or be alone. Maybe that's just the way it is these days, right?

KATZ: Well, there is a real tension. People often get nervous, especially in public places, waiting in lines. They feel they need to be connected to their friends and in a sense the mobile phone is a form of social support for them and to try to understand these long- term questions is why we established at Rutgers, the Center for Mobile Communication Studies of which I'm the director. We'll be able to answer some of these questions in the years ahead more definitively than we can today.

CAFFERTY: Can I take a class from you?

SERWER: We're going to study you.

LISOVICZ: It should be said that the Center for Mobile communications also puts out a list of good etiquette while you're using your cell phone and letting your voice mail take your calls when you're in meetings, yoga and so on is at the top of the list.

CAFFERTY: Yoga?

LISOVICZ: James Katz, that's another new concept for Jack I think as well. James Katz, director of the Center for Mobile Communications at Rutgers University Thanks for an enlightening chat.

KATZ: My pleasure.

LISOVICZ: We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, an old school summer with new school style. Summer camp is booming as operators tweak yesterday's routines for today's kids. We'll take a look.

And big ticket. Find out how some web prospectors try to make a buck on a political match.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SERWER: It wasn't so long ago that everyone knew what summer camp was about, stuff like coping with cabin mates, making those lanyards out of plastic string -- I remember that and singing around a fire. Well, today's camper is likely to be singing a different tune and it probably isn't Kumbaya (ph). These days summer camps for some kids mean scuba diving in the Caribbean or studying ecology in Costa Rica. National Camp Association Director Jeffrey Solomon joins us now for a look at the increasing popularity of exotic summer camps and camp in general. Welcome, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY SOLOMON, NATL CAMP ASSN: Hi.

SERWER: Listen my older daughter just went away to sleep away camp and of course we're suffering a little withdrawal and also enjoying it a little bit, but why don't you tell us a little bit about some of these real high-end camps that seem to be popular now.

SOLOMON: The terrific thing today is that there's probably a right camp for every child. So there are these very exotic programs where children can go scuba diving, learn marine biology, be involved in a community service project in Costa Rica or working on an Indian reservation in the southwestern United States. There are travel programs throughout Europe. There are mountain climbing, rock climbing-type programs, bike tours. So there's a host and a variety of different things to appeal to just about every type of interest with a lot of adventure in mind.

LISOVICZ: Yes, Jeffrey, I never went to camp and I don't even know what a lanyard is. Well, that explains a lot of things actually about me.

SERWER?: I'll show you my lanyard.

LISOVICZ: We'll sing around the camp fire later. I thought summer vacation was all about just that, going to the beach, staying up late, sleeping many hours. You're telling me that one of the trends is to get ahead, to improve your resume and a lot of kids are doing this at their parents' insistence.

SOLOMON: I wouldn't necessarily call it a trend. I think that the general traditional camp is still the most popular type of program for younger children. However, with more and more older children now going to summer camp, the opportunity to take academic enrichment programs, classes that will give them some advancement or give them just a taste of what it would be like to go away to college have become very popular and certainly community service programs and some of these other projects that children can be involved can certainly enhance a resume, make an application to college look that much better.

CAFFERTY: Is that what childhood should really be about though I wonder and I ask that in a very philosophical sense. I know here on the east coast, particularly in cities like New York from the moment the kid leaves the nursery, it's like what kind of preschool can I get him into so that he can go to the right private school, so can go to the right secondary school, get into the right type (ph) of high school, get into the right college. And if we can get summer camp into the mix so we can get that on his resume, I mean are we overdoing it with just maybe not letting these kids go out in the back yard and make some mud pies and throw them at each other and just be kids?

SOLOMON: Well, mud pies I'm sure are fun a children should still certainly enjoy doing that, however, I think our society is on a fast track. We are always looking to get ahead and get our kids ahead. And once you realize these programs are not punitive, the kids are not there to be punished. They're there to have a good time and certainly to learn and to improve skills and the reports we get back from families and particularly from the children is that they really had a great time. So, the element of fun is still there. It doesn't mean that by taking an interesting class or being involved in a community service program or doing some scuba diving that you're not having a good time. I think the kids are having a great time and the reports indicate that but they're also learning. They're developing skills and things that may give them a jump in their future careers and lives.

SERWER: Hey Jeffrey, let me ask you about this whole communication issue. This is a very controversial topic amongst campers and parents. How much communication is right? Some of these camps now have web cams -- I love this -- that follow your little darlings around so you can monitor them 24/7 on the Internet. I mean others of them have e-mail. Some of you are allowed to have cell phones. What about regular good old snail mail. I mean what happened to that?

SOLOMON: Well, certainly, snail mail still exists, however, as suggested by the term snail mail, it is a slow process and parents do like to hear from their children on a more regular basis and certainly e-mail can accomplish that. I think technology certainly has found its way into summer camp and I think it has a benefit. It has a place for families that want to be able to turn on their computer and get a view of what's going on at camp, it certainly is an enhancement to the camp program. Children seem to enjoy it, the communication, as I said, is much improved. Children are still able to write letters home, but you write a letter, it's going to take a few days before mom or dad can get it and then respond to it, it'll take a few more days.

LISOVICZ: Jeff, it seems like camp has evolved quite a bit since the camp Grenada days, but all of these, you know, all this global jet setting and all of these skills that you can learn and the web casting and all this, it comes at a price. Do you get like tuition aid or financial aid for going to these kinds of camps?

SOLOMON: Not typically. These programs are not for everybody financially. They can be cost prohibitive. These programs also tend to not be like a typical camp that can enroll up to 300 or 400 children for a summer. These are smaller numbers and so they don't really have margins to be able to offer financial assistance. So it is for those that can afford it or feel that it's a worthwhile investment to make for their children.

CAFFERTY: What the most I can spend to send my little darling away to camp? SOLOMON: You're welcome to send me a check for anything you'd like Jack, but --

CAFFERTY: You're not my little darling. What's a high end camp? What do they cost?

SOLOMON: The camps can run well over $1,000 a week. If I wanted to do a scuba diving Caribbean type expedition for a few weeks, that could run you $4,000, or $5,000 for a three or four-week program and that may not be including the transportation costs on top of that or if you have to provide equipment for the program.

SERWER: All right. Jeffrey Solomon, who can short sheet a bed with the best of them I'm sure, director of the National Camp Association. Thanks for coming on.

SOLOMON: Thank you for having me.

SERWER: Time for some ads, but stick around. Coming up after the break, mobile phones that really move. See how a couple of pranksters take cell phone etiquette to new extremes on our fun site of the week and talk with your hands. If you don't like what we're covering or you want to just pass a compliment, sit down and type us an e-mail. Our address is inthemoney@cnn.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: If you logged on to kerryedwards.com to find out where exactly the White House hopefuls were grandstanding this week, well, you were out of luck. Likewise, if you checked out kerry-edwards.com or even kerryedwards2004.com, not there either. These sites have all been snatched up and pinned with a hefty price tag. Money.com webmaster Allen Wastler joins us now with a look at the illegal practice of something called cyber squatting.

ALLEN WASTLER, MONEY.COM: Cyber squatting. This actually grew up in the beginning of the Internet bubble, OK, some wise web people said, if I went out and snagged a name that somebody is going to need eventually they'd have to pay me for it wouldn't they? So they went out and they snagged -- basically they went after corporations, Panasonic, Hertz, Avon. These were some of the corporations they went out, boom and did it.

LISOVICZ: But also celebrities, too.

WASTLER: Celebrities, too. They just grab it and basically it's an extortion scheme. Hey, I got your domain. It's mine.

CAFFERTY: That's kind of the American way isn't it?

WASTLER: Well, you know, if you're a company and you've built a brand name and somebody is like throwing up pictures of, let's say, an untoward quality on there, it could damage your brand name.

CAFFERTY: Which website is that?

SERWER: What's the URL?

WASTLER: I was going to tell you later, later. Anyway, so Congress passed a law in 1999 which outlawed cyber squatting. So now if somebody takes a domain that you think should rightfully be yours, you can actually sue under this law. Also you can go to icon, which is the international governing body for Internet addresses and they have an arbitration procedure. But political sites, this is bringing up a whole new question because you can say, no, I'm using it for parody. I'm making a political statement with this domain name. That's why you have whitehouse.org. If you go to that, it's a humor site that's making fun of everything the government is doing.

SERWER?: That sounds productive.

WASTLER: Yes, a lot of these Kerry sites, a lot of the Kerry sites, you know, kerryedwards.com, it's owned by a bail bondsman who bought it five years ago who put his kids picture up on it.

SERWER?: He gets that five years ago.

WASTLER: So he can argue that it was a legitimate family site. There you go. There's the guy. But others are putting sort of anti- Kerry/Edwards statements on there and just working it that way. So it brings up an interesting question.

CAFFERTY: The bottom line for political stuff, it might be legal but it ain't kosher.

WASTLER: Sometimes it's funny.

CAFFERTY: What about the fun site of the week?

WASTLER: I heard you guys talking about cell phone etiquette.

LISOVICZ: We're complaining about it.

SERWER: Not me.

WASTLER: A couple guys in England ripped off a couple of those promotional cell phone suits and they decided to do something about it. There's their mission statement.

CAFFERTY?: Phone bashing.

WASTLER: Phonebashing.com.

SERWER?: That's blasphemous.

WASTLER: And then they proceeded to go around and when they thought that someone was being rude with a cell phone, well they just sort of ran up, grabbed it out of their hands. Here you go. This is their first effort at it. They take the cell phone. They throw it to the ground. They stomp on it and then they run, run, run.

CAFFERTY?: It's terrific.

WASTLER: The hip grab. I really like the hip grab because they're sort of like going for it.

LISOVICZ: He wasn't even talking on the phone.

WASTLER: Apparently they'd witnessed some...

SERWER: These guys need jobs.

CAFFERY: They have a job. This is terrific. We should have a whole army of these people in this country, in this city, on the buses that Serwer rides back and forth to work.

SERWER: I'm one of those nut jobs.

CAFFERTY: I'm going to send them to your house where you don't have a phone so you can deal with them and tell them where to go. You can deal with those people

WASTLER: This is what the Internet's made for, right?

CAFFERTY: I love it.

LISOVICZ: But nobody complained. Right, nobody demanded their money back for their smashed phone.

WASTLER: You never know. Well, they ran and ran and ran.

SERWER: (INAUDIBLE) They beat them up instead.

LISOVICZ: Assault and battery.

CAFFERTY: What is it? Cellphonebashing.com.

WASTLER: Phonebashing.com.

CAFFERTY: Phonebashing.com.

WASTLER: If people can't remember it, they can go to our show (ph) page and we'll have the address.

LISOVICZ: Andrew's going to be up next.

CAFFERTY: Thanks Allen. Coming up on next on "IN THE MONEY," we're going to channel you the viewers. We're going to read some of your e-mails just ahead and if you want to drop a note the virtual mailbag is always open. The address is inthemoney@cnn.com. Unburden yourselves of the burning issues that are troubling your very soul.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: It's time now to read your answers to our question from last week. What makes you proud to be an American? Bob in Idaho wrote this. I'm proud to be an American because of the very traits we demonstrated in Iraq, because our actions at Abu Ghraib horrified us while it would be mild for most other countries' prisons.

Another viewer, David says, I'm proud that we have a democratic system in place that will enable the voters to choose their government officials. I'm a proud American who voted for Bush and I will not compound that mistake by voting for him again.

Finally Jeff from Massachusetts writes this -- what makes me proud to be an American this July fourth and every moment of every day is that I have the freedom to e-mail your program with my opinions that I wish to state and that you have the freedom to read any opinions that you wish.

SERWER: Here, here.

CAFFERTY: And we did and that concludes that deal. Now for this week's question, what is the worst cell phone horror story you have ever had? And we would love to hear from the little old lady who was on the bus when Andy Serwer -- please, please write to us.

SERWER: I want to hear her side of the story.

CAFFERTY: Send your answers to "IN THE MONEY" at cnn.com. And you should visit or show page at money.com/in the money. That's where you'll find the address of our fun site of the week. Check that out. Thank you meantime for joining us for this edition of "IN THE MONEY." Thanks to CNN correspondent Susan Lisovicz, "Fortune" magazine editor at large Andy Serwer and money.com managing editor Allen Wastler.

Join us next week, Saturday at 1:00, Sunday at 3:00 for more of this. Or you can catch Andy and me all week long on "AMERICAN MORNING." That's starts at 7:00 Eastern time here on CNN. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired July 11, 2004 - 15:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: From New York City, America's capitol, this is IN THE MONEY.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JACK CAFFERTY, HOST: Welcome to the program. I'm Jack Cafferty. Coming up on today's edition of IN THE MONEY, The battle for Middle America: See why one author thinks the U.S. heartland has been voting against its wallet. As Edwards teams up with Kerry, we'll take a look to see if there's any chance of that changing.

And the father of our money, Alexander Hamilton, the first to run America's Treasury and the country a national bank. Also killed 200 years ago today in a duel with Aaron Burr not far very far from where we're bringing you this program. As the country marks the anniversary of that gunfight, we'll take a look at Hamilton's life.

And cell hell: Courtesy goes out the window when the cell phone rings. We'll get inside the minds of people who can get on your nerves. Boy can they, with their mobile phone manners.

Joining me today, a couple of our IN THE MONEY veterans, CNN correspondent, Susan Lisovicz, "Fortune" magazine editor-at-large, Andy Serwer.

This week, once again, Secretary of Homeland Security Tom ridge holds a briefing for the press and says, "We have creditable intelligence that is leading us to believe that there could be a major attack in the United States this summer," at that it's aimed, supposedly, based on the intelligence, at our political process. What do you make of that?

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Well, I think it's so interesting you hear that the al-Qaeda wants "disrupt" our political process or our democratic process -- but, what does that mean? Does that mean they want to throw the election to the democrats or they want Bush to win? Is -- or are they thinking like that at all? And the other question to me is if there is a terrorist act, will people rally around the president? Would it be good for President Bush?

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, obviously, any terror attack would be terrible. And we've heard these warnings before, basically to stay on guard. About what? We don't necessarily know. Where? What manner? We don't know. It's just every so often these officials -- security officials, whether it's Tom Ridge or somebody from Justice, telling us that this may happen. It's sort of information that we'd know already, I mean, certainly nobody would forget 9/11.

CAFFERTY: And even if they didn't -- if they didn't say anything and they assumed that we knew already and something happened and it was learned they had some kind of intelligence suggesting it might happen and they didn't tell us, there would be hell to pay until, from now as far as the eye can see. I mean, they're in a very tough situation.

LISOVICZ: Absolutely.

CAFFERTY: If they come out -- you know, periodically and say, look -- you know, this could happen, people say, oh, we know, leave us alone -- you know, tell us when you got something specific. But, God forbid something like 9/11 happens again and they didn't say anything. That wouldn't be any good, either. So, I don't know what the answer is. But that political question is interesting.

SERWER: And who knows what they're thinking or are they thinking. That's what's interesting to me.

CAFFERTY: And these two big conventions coming up, Boston and New York, this summer, so...

LISOVICZ: And the Olympics.

CAFFERTY: And the Olympics. Those are in Athens. Yeah, all right.

Look beyond the East and West coast, you'll find plenty of voters with some firm ideas about democrats. For example, they're elitists who can recommend a nice French chardonnay, but can't find their way to church on Sunday. But the democrats are gambling that John Edwards maybe can break that stereotype. The running mate John Kerry picked this week has blue collar roots, Methodist credentials, and he's got a pretty good way with a phrase, as well. He also has an accent you don't pick up at Yale, even though that's -- did he go to Yale? I don't guess he did.

SERWER: No he didn't.

CAFFERTY: No Kerry went to Yale.

SERWER: North Carolina State.

CAFFERTY: All right, for a look how Middle America votes and whether it's voting smart, Thomas Frank joins us from Washington, the author of "What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America."

Tom, nice to have you with us. Thanks for joining us.

TOM FRANK, AUTHOR, "WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS?": Thank you very much for having me. CAFFERTY: So, take John Edwards, put him into the equation, we kind of laid out there in the introductions, and read the tea leaves for me. What does he bring to that part of the country? Some of which is critical to this election.

FRANK: Yeah, I think it was really wise choice by Kerry, I mean, if you want my opinion, I have no idea why you would want my opinion, but...

CAFFERTY: Well, that's why we invited you on the show, Tom.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANK: I know. I mean, it's very kind of you, and I'm -- you know, it's wonderful.

CAFFERTY: Well, we're a nice bunch of people on IN THE MONEY.

FRANK: And, I mean, nobody's ever asked for it before and so, it's a -- you know, it's great honor. But listen...

CAFFERTY: Well, you have something to tell your kids about.

FRANK: I think -- yeah, exactly. I think it's an excellent choice because it -- because Edwards does have the ability to disrupt the conservative narrative of-- you know, the red state/blue state narrative, where people in the heartland in the red states are automatically this sort of "salt of the earth," middle Americans, republicans represent real Americans, where as democrats speak for this devitalized talllized -- you know, coastal elite with their lattes and their -- you know, their chardonnays and this sort of thing...

LISOVICZ: And that's...

FRANK: And that's -- I'm sorry.

LISOVICZ: And that's what I wanted to ask you about, that whole elitist thing is coming out in this election in a big way, the senator from Massachusetts, the most liberal senator in the Senate and on and on, does Edwards soften that with the general population, in your view?

FRANK: I -- there's no question about it. He's definitely -- he definitely does. And it's funny that you say that the -- you know, the elitism thing is coming out, it comes out in every election year and it's been doing that ever since the late 1960s, when this is basically the republicans discovered that speaking to this particular kind of class anger was a way of turning the tables on the democrats and speaking to the traditional constituency of the democrats which is -- you know, blue collar voters and what's and it's -- they've done a particularly good job of pinning this label to John Kerry and that's what's great about Edwards is, you can't attach it to him.

CAFFERTY: Well, doesn't...

FRANK: In fact...

CAFFERTY: Doesn't Kerry's voting record sort of attach the label to him without anybody making much of an effort?

FRANK: Well, he's liberal but -- you know, so what? So are factory workers in Detroit, that's -- you know. The problem is "liberal elite." This is -- this is the question and -- you know, Kerry is obviously a member of the upper class in America. But, Edwards speaks the old language of populism, he understands where...

CAFFERTY: I get it.

FRANK: ...where it's not people in -- you know, Kansas versus liberal elites in New York drinking chardonnay, but it's workers in management, it's the upper class and working class. It...

SERWER: That's what I want to talk about that, Thomas and sometimes they drink merlot, too. We've been taking -- oh, I'm on my own again.

CAFFERTY: Yeah.

SERWER: Listen, republicans talk about this liberal elite, yet, to me, the biggest elite in this country are CEO's and top corporate officers, and if you want to talk about and elite, I mean these are the wealthiest people in the United States and they are overwhelmingly republican. Why haven't the democrats been able to make hay out of that?

FRANK: You know, that's a -- that's an excellent question and if had my way, if they were -- if -- you know, if they were asking me my opinion, like you guys are, they would have been doing this for a long time. Because that's -- you know, it would be very -- that's the -- that's the way democrats used to do it and they used to be the majority party in this country, remember, they used to win elections all the time. And they, in my opinion, they certainly, they obviously should be doing that, especially in the environment that we're in. With -- you know, Ken Lay being indicted just today, I mean, or yesterday, whatever it was. This is a -- you know, this is -- this is, to me, this seems obvious. The reason they haven't done it for so long is because, well, because of the money. If you talk that old language of economic populism, the problems is that you -- you know, the campaign contributions from business dry up pretty quickly.

CAFFERTY: What about a guy like Ralph Nader, and to what degree does he get into the constituencies of these parties to the degree that he's able, perhaps if he stays in, to do what he did a last time, which is to affect the outcome of the election.

FRANK: I don't know. You know, I'll confess I voted for Nader last time. Hell, I even in '96

SERWER: You've being very honest today, Tom.

FRANK: Yeah. I'm not voting for him this time. CAFFERTY: Are you sure you want to admit that stuff on national TV, Tom? I'm mean, you know.

FRANK: It is embarrassing, isn't it?

CAFFERTY: Yeah, a little bit, yeah.

FRANK: Yeah.

SERWER: You tell us.

FRANK: But, if I -- look, and I'm not voting for him this time, so that should tell you something.

CAFFERTY: Why not?

FRANK: Well I - -you know, I wasn't a big fan of President Clinton and didn't like Al Gore, either. And Ralph Nader was -- you know, he spoke to my concerns and he talked about the things that I could see and he made sense.

CAFFERTY: Why won't you vote for him this time?

FRANk: I'm happy with Kerry.

CAFFERTY: Oh, you like Kerry.

FRANK: Yeah, I like Kerry, and I like Edwards even more, I think they're -- I think they're great.

CAFFERTY: Yeah, we've learned a lot of your opinions here, Tom, and it's been an interesting exercise for us.

SERWER: You're too honest for TV.

CAFFERTY: And I really appreciate you being so forthcoming. It's nice to have you with us.

FRANK: Hey, anytime.

CAFFERTY: All right. Tom Frank, whose the author of "What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America,"

We're going to let Madison Avenue win your hearts with some commercials, here. But when we come back, 10 buck Al: We'll look at Alexander Hamilton, he's the one on the $10 bill, the guy who fired up the U.S. Treasury, the guy who got his brains blown out by Aaron Burr in a duel 200 years ago.

Plus, take it outside: Find out what makes some cell phone users act like they're living in their personal phone booth with you.

And camps go cheap: From trips around the world to a week in a cabin. Summer camp's big business, we'll take a look at that as well. Stick around, you're watching IN THE MONEY, how lucky for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: When it comes to staying connected, Motorola has go you covered. Ranked as the world's second largest cell phone maker behind Nokia, Motorola also markets for wireless networking, broadband communications, and automobile circuitry. And it's even trying its hand at politics. Teaming up with "Rock the Vote" to encourage and educate young adults about the importance of getting to the polls.

But, delays in getting products to market and growing competition from companies like Samsung, have Motorola scrambling to keep up. However, industry experts say Motorola's new CEO Edward Zander may be just what the doctor ordered. The former hear of Sun Microsystems is known for his rapid restructurings and effective marketing strategies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: Money, sex, politics, gunfire. The story of Alexander Hamilton has it all and then some. Hamilton took a fatal bullet 200 years ago today in a dual with Vice President Bur. It happened just across the Hudson River from where this program is being broadcast, in the talk of Weehawken, New Jersey, is where that gunfight took place. If you weren't asleep during high school history, you probably remember that Hamilton wrote the Federalist Papers, he wrote a lot of other stuff, too. He also played a big role in shaping how America handles its money. Here with some more on this famous American is Ron Chernow who's the author of the new Alexander Hamilton biography by the same name as the man. He's also an essayist and radio commentator.

Nice to have you with us, welcome.

RON CHERNOW, AUTHOR "ALEXANDER HAMILTON": Great please, Jack. Thank you.

CAFFERTY: So, how do you feel about taking Hamilton's picture off the $10 bill and putting President Reagan's picture there?

CHERNOW: Well, I'm not anti-Reagan, but I'm violently -- maybe violently is the wrong word, I'm strongly pro-Hamilton, because I feel this is somebody who really created the federal government, when he became the first Treasury secretary. He had to invent from scratch the first tax system, first budget system, first accounting system, furst central bank, he created the Coast Guard, he crated the customs service...

CAFFERTY: Wow.

CHERNOW: No discredit to President Reagan to say his accomplishments were not quite on that level.

CAFFERTY: Well, they weren't, of course.

SERWER: Ron, he is really revered by people in the know on Wall Street, admittedly there are not that many people in the know on Wall Street, but people in the know down there really revere him has sort of the father of Wall Street. What do you think he would say about our system today, about the nation today?

CHERNOW: Well, you know, if you go back to the founder era, Thomas Jefferson wanted us to be a nation of sturdy home and farmers and agriculture is a very small part of it. It was Hamilton who had this prophetic vision that the American economy should also have banks, stock exchanges, manufacturing corporations, there were considered very, very wicked things of the 18th century and Hamilton was a lonely voice arguing for them, but of course, he was demonized for it. So, I think that if Hamilton came back today, he's the one founder that would look around with a feeling of comfort and satisfaction. I think...

LISOVICZ: I've created...

CHERNOW: I think some of the Virginia planters, Madison, Jefferson, might blanch with horror in terms of the economy.

LISOVICZ: But, you know, I visited his grave many, many times because it's right at Trinity Church in the graveyard, right across the street from the New York Stock Exchange and one of the things that you write, which is so interesting, is that you need the poetry and the prose in government, Jefferson was the poetry, Hamilton was the prose and this man who accomplished so much as first Treasury Secretary was a man, of very modest, it's an incredible story.

CHERNOW: He's an illegitimate orphan kid that grows up in the Caribbean, he comes out of nowhere. I mean, this is a story that a novelist couldn't have invented. When he's 17 years old, he's toiling away as a clerk in a trading house in Saint Croy. Five years later, age 22, he's aid de camp to George Washington, by 34, he's the first Treasury secretary, it's a phenomenal story.

CAFFERTY: He sounds like a bit of eccentric. I mean, who would sit around in, what, the 1700s and think about the stock exchange and all of these other things that he got -- not only thought about, but wound up creating. I mean, little bit eccentric fellow?

CHERNOW: Eccentric, certainly visionary. You know, when I was researching the book, I call up the archivist at the New York Stock Exchange and said if you go back to the early 1790s, how many securities were traded? This was very interesting, there were five securities, there were three issues of Treasury securities, there was the stock of the Bank of New York, and there was the stock of Bank of the United States, the First Central bank. All five of those securities had been created by Alexander Hamilton. So, when you say he was the patron saint of Wall Street, you can say that quite literally, and as you were saying, he was buried right near Wall Street.

LISOVICZ: Well you know, he was mortal person, he was not a god, and the fact is the duels, as I understand it, were illegal, but he and Burr had it out for each other, so they rode across the Hudson to get to New Jersey, a secluded spot, to kill each other. CHERNOW: Duels were common, but there were illegal in New York, they were illegal in New Jersey, people rode across to New Jersey. to the "Soprano" turf there, to have the duels.

(LAUGHTER)

CAFFERTY: A legend that probably lives probably there to this day.

CHERNOW: Duels were treated more leniently in New Jersey, but Aaron Burr, who was the sitting vice president, at the time, is indicted for murder in two states, he's a fugitive from justice, so where does he go? Of course, he goes to Washington D.C., where he presides over a famous impeachment trial in the Senate. Of course, Hamilton's admirers were horrified that Burr, who was wanted for murder in two states, was officiating at this impeachment trial in Washington D.C. The pen (PH) did a very good job.

SERWER: Ron, let me ask you a little bit about your career and your books. I read "Titan" which was fabulous, about John D. Rockefeller, haven't gotten to Hamilton, yet. How do you choose your subjects? You spend so much time writings the mammoth books.

CHERNOW: Well, I think I gravitate to these large, but also flawed figures. Hamilton was a flawed figure, in fact, while he was Treasury secretary, he not only is writing these great State Papers and creating the federal government, he stumpables into a year-long sexual affair with a woman named...

LISOVICZ: No.

SERWER: This book has it all.

CHERNOW: Reynolds -- yes, ends up paying blackmail money to Mr. Reynolds. So, I look for dramatic stories. I look for figures whom I think are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and also people like Rockefeller, like Hamilton, people whom I feel some big trend in American economic or political life.

SERWER: All right, we're going to have to leave it that that. Ron Chernow, author of "Alexander Hamilton." Thank you very much.

CHERNOW: It was fun (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

CAFFERTY: Good to have you on.

SERWER: Time to let the ad people do their song and dance. We'll return after the break.

Coming up, Microsoft's out with a billion announcement. See if that number was big enough to shake up the stock.

Plus living out loud: Find out why some cell phone users can't seem to keep it to themselves.

And space race: We'll tell you about the online land rush after John Kerry named his running mate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LISOVICZ: Now, the week's top stories in our "Money Minute." Former Enron chairman, Ken Lay, pleaded not guilty to 11 criminal counts against him, they including wire fraud, securities fraud, and making false and misleading statements. Lay surrendered to the FBI authorities Thursday morning one day after be was indicted by the grand jury in Houston he did the infamous perk walk. He was released on $500,000 bail. Lay is the 31st person or entity, for that matter, charged in the Enron investigation.

And while we're on the corporate crime beat, also this week, another setback for Martha Stewart. Her obstruction of justice conviction will not be thrown out. A federal judge denied Stewart's request for a new trial based on allegations that a government expert lied on the witness stand. The judge said the testimony did not affect the jury's verdict. Stewart is expected to be sentenced later this month, a matter of days, for that matter.

And fewer people are curling up with a good book these days or so says the National Endowment for the Art. A new survey finds that fewer than half of American adults have read a novel, short story or play in the past year, but they do watch this program.

SERWER: Yeah, they should. A little belt tightening for a company with $56 billion in the bank -- $56 billion. Microsoft CEO, Steve Ballmer, outlined a plan this week to shed $1 billion in costs. The reason, Ballmer says expenses have grown faster than revenues for the past three years. Let's check out the stock, it's hovered around the price for quite some time, that makes Microsoft the stock of the week. Actually, it's a lot worse than that. The stock's gone from $60 in late '99 to $20, today. A lot of shareholders very ticked off. Fifty-six billion dollars in cash, there are 10 billion shares, I'll do the math, that's $5.66 a share in cash. And this company -- you know, has done a lot of things, but it's never really made any money in anything except operating software and application software. What are they going to do here?

LISOVICZ: Well, two things, obviously. If you're talking about share price, you can raise the dividend or do a share buyback program, that's two things. But, the other thing is, right -- we're at this critical stage now, we've had this week, all these warnings from software companies and some analysts are blaming the mudling market waiting for Microsoft to report later this month, to get a better idea where the tech sector is.

CAFFERTY: What's wrong with the way they're doing business? And I ask that in the sense they've gotten a lot of monopoly problems behind them, they've made settlements with a lot of state's attorneys general around the country, I think they've got the cases in Europe pretty much in hand. Why isn't the company doing any better than it is? Are they the poster boy for the computer industry, out there? Why isn't Microsoft doing anything?

SERWER: Well, I think that actually a lot of the litigation really isn't over, that's sort of No. 1, that it hangs like a -- you know, anvil over their heads and they haven't cleared it up completely, especially in Europe. And then the other thing is freeware, Linux, free operating software, out there, making inroads. And what happened in Europe, in particular, Jack, they ticked off a lot of countries, and so the countries just said, OK, we're going to stop buying -- you know, Microsoft Office, we're going to buy Linux instead. So, on the margin, Linux is bothering? That's why Microsoft is looking at companies like SAP, which to me is Germany gobbly-gook, and I'm so glad they decided not to buy that company. They're looking at acquisitions like that, you know. And think about if you're an employee, though. Here's a company, $56 billion of cash and by the way, we're going to cut the towels in your locker rooms. You know.

LISOVICZ: And no layoffs. And the other thing about Microsoft is at this interesting time, because on the one hand you've gotten used to these enormous growth for tech companies, right? Well, it's still growing, it's still double digit growth, it just ain't that meteoric growth. So that's one. But, the other hand, it's a maturing company, and it's the 800 pound gorilla, at that. So, how do you straddle these two and keep investors happy?

CAFFERTY: Well, the investors obviously aren't happy these days.

LISOVICZ: Are unhappy.

CAFFERTY: And with good reason, I mean the stock came down, split adjusted from 120 bucks down to around 60, now it's from 60 down to around 30. Well, they haven't raised the dividend, they got all this money, and the shareholders are kind of getting on of these "who cares" kind of looks.

LISOVICZ: Well, that's why there was a 4,900 word memo out from Steve Ballmer.

SERWER: Right. Right. We'll investors say it's no longer a growth stock, not a value stock, either so. We'll be checking it out.

There's much more ahead on IN THE MONEY. Come up ahead, phone- zilla: We'll look at why so many people with cell phones act like the rest of us simply don't exist.

Plus, cabin fever: Summer camp booming including big ticket options. Find out why for some campers bus is out and the plane is in.

And, street justice for cell phone abusers: See how a couple of pranksters took the problem into their own hands -- or feet on our fun side of the week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LISOVICZ: Cell phones have turned sitting around waiting for a call into one of those quaint retro activities like a quilting bee or a barn raising or sending a letter through the mail, but helpful as it may be, there's a flipside to that flip phone in your life and it comes out when people pick up the mobile and drop their good manners. For more about that, we're joined by James Katz, professor of communications at Rutgers University. He's also the author of "Perpetual Contact, Mobile Communication, Private Talk and Public Performance." Welcome.

JAMES KATZ, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY: Hello.

LISOVICZ: You know, professor, I was on a Washington to New York Amtrak train, it was a no cell phone car. The poor guy in the car picked up his cell phone and I thought there was going to be a public lynching. People have had it with cell phone manners, bad cell phone manners. Why is it that we get so irritated about people using their cell phones?

KATZ: Well, there's something about the way that we're hard wired, I believe, that makes it very hard for us to ignore half the conversation. Millions of years of evolution have prepared us to engage the people around us and when they're yakking to some unseen other, it just gets us whipped up but we don't really know what's going on.

SERWER: James, in defense of cell phones, it's sort of an opposite example of what happened to Susan. I was on a bus and I was talking on some cell phone. Some older lady told me to stop talking and I asked her if she just felt neglected or ignored or she was lonely and I reminded her that my conversation on my cell phone was no louder than if I was sitting next to someone talking.

There's nothing wrong with cell phones. Get used to it. How many lives have cell phones saved? Hunters, people lost in the woods, I'm sure it's saved a lot of people. I'm trying to -- this is me preaching to Jack Cafferty here a little bit, but if people can't handle it, maybe they should be somewhere where there aren't any cell phones, don't you think?

KATZ: Well, I think there are very few places where there are no cell phones and those few places are about to be populated anyway. Some countries, about 99 percent of the people in the country are cell phone users. So I think this is a trend that is only going to gather strength.

What I would say is important here, is something that social scientists call the actor observer paradox. That is that, when you need a mobile phone and you need to make a call or get a call, that's great and other people should understand. On the other hand, when other people are doing that and they're disturbing your privacy, your solitude, then they're being rude and discourteous. So it really depends on whose ox is being gored.

CAFFERTY: You talked about the fact that we're sort of hardwired to hear both sides of the conversation.

KATZ: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Doesn't the cell phone irritability quotient have a lot to do with what's being discussed? I got no problem hearing somebody call and say, may I speak to the doctor, please, I'd like to find out how my son who was in an accident last night is doing. But to listen to some pretentious twit in a restaurant talking to some other pretentious twit someplace else in New York.

SERWER: Sometimes we have to talk, Jack.

CAFFERTY: Yes. About -- or on the bus that Andy was on about what kind of wine ought to be served with some piece of dead fish in light of the fact that he's going out with somebody from Harvard Univ -- I mean, some of this stuff makes my teeth hurt.

I've never owned a cell phone. I'm 61 years old. I don't feel the slightest bit slighted or neglected. I don't have a car phone. I don't have pagers. I don't have any of that stuff and yet I seem to get through my days OK and I'd like to think I get through my days without making everybody around me ready to take a shot at me. Isn't there something about the stuff that people use these phones for that just...

KATZ: (INAUDIBLE) We certainly understand emergencies. We certainly understand when people need to do something. At the same time, we find that these other types of calls really do grate on us. And I think just the mere fact that other people are showing that they're not that engaged with you even though they're sharing the space with you.

CAFFERTY: I don't want (INAUDIBLE) I just want them to be quiet.

KATZ: Let me point out that not all those people are actually talking to somebody else. In surveys I've done, about 26 percent of the people we interview admit that sometimes they've pretended to be talking on the mobile phone just to impress the people around them.

LISOVICZ: Well, it does just the opposite. You know, James, interesting developments this week. Ken Lay indicted, press all over in Houston. There's his attorney surrounded by camera people and reporters and his cell phone goes off and he very politely apologizes and turned it off. Why can't people just exercise a little bit of restraint? There was a reason why phone booths came with the first phone. In other words, talk softly, you know don't talk at length in a public environment, in a yoga studio or in a board meeting. Why don't people just sort of get it? It seems like our parents taught us good manners when we were growing up.

KATZ: Well, yes. We expect other people to use good manners at all times and they should. However, we also sometimes feel, well, maybe it's an important call and maybe if I could just handle this one call, that would save me lots of hours. Other people around us need to quote, understand our situation. And that's really where the conflict comes in because we assume other people will understand our situation, but we don't. We don't understand their situation.

SERWER: James, I'm going to ask our viewers if they want to go to our website and make a donation to get Jack a cell phone. I'm not sure who would call him. By the way Jack, that was a '98 merlot that I was talking about with my friend in the restaurant. CAFFERTY: It's a good thing I (INAUDIBLE) You know, the other thing about telephones -- I just -- I have noticed in all these years when the phone rings it's very seldom something that you want to hear. It's I need, I want, it's broken, I can't --

LISOVICZ: Your parents.

CAFFERTY: It's never somebody calling saying, guess what, I'm going to drop by a few thousand dollars or you've won a new car.

KATZ: I have to say Jack, as one of those unusual people because, even if you don't, most of us even if we don't want to have a cell phone, our friends and family will say, oh, you really need to get one. Oh, I'm worried, I might need to get a hold of you so you should get one. And I tried calling and you didn't pick up. Why weren't you there? So it's not only our own wishes, but the wishes of the people in our social network that are really driving a lot of this behavior.

SERWER: Just quickly James, I mean it seems like people are talking on these phones because they don't want to think or be alone. Maybe that's just the way it is these days, right?

KATZ: Well, there is a real tension. People often get nervous, especially in public places, waiting in lines. They feel they need to be connected to their friends and in a sense the mobile phone is a form of social support for them and to try to understand these long- term questions is why we established at Rutgers, the Center for Mobile Communication Studies of which I'm the director. We'll be able to answer some of these questions in the years ahead more definitively than we can today.

CAFFERTY: Can I take a class from you?

SERWER: We're going to study you.

LISOVICZ: It should be said that the Center for Mobile communications also puts out a list of good etiquette while you're using your cell phone and letting your voice mail take your calls when you're in meetings, yoga and so on is at the top of the list.

CAFFERTY: Yoga?

LISOVICZ: James Katz, that's another new concept for Jack I think as well. James Katz, director of the Center for Mobile Communications at Rutgers University Thanks for an enlightening chat.

KATZ: My pleasure.

LISOVICZ: We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, an old school summer with new school style. Summer camp is booming as operators tweak yesterday's routines for today's kids. We'll take a look.

And big ticket. Find out how some web prospectors try to make a buck on a political match.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SERWER: It wasn't so long ago that everyone knew what summer camp was about, stuff like coping with cabin mates, making those lanyards out of plastic string -- I remember that and singing around a fire. Well, today's camper is likely to be singing a different tune and it probably isn't Kumbaya (ph). These days summer camps for some kids mean scuba diving in the Caribbean or studying ecology in Costa Rica. National Camp Association Director Jeffrey Solomon joins us now for a look at the increasing popularity of exotic summer camps and camp in general. Welcome, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY SOLOMON, NATL CAMP ASSN: Hi.

SERWER: Listen my older daughter just went away to sleep away camp and of course we're suffering a little withdrawal and also enjoying it a little bit, but why don't you tell us a little bit about some of these real high-end camps that seem to be popular now.

SOLOMON: The terrific thing today is that there's probably a right camp for every child. So there are these very exotic programs where children can go scuba diving, learn marine biology, be involved in a community service project in Costa Rica or working on an Indian reservation in the southwestern United States. There are travel programs throughout Europe. There are mountain climbing, rock climbing-type programs, bike tours. So there's a host and a variety of different things to appeal to just about every type of interest with a lot of adventure in mind.

LISOVICZ: Yes, Jeffrey, I never went to camp and I don't even know what a lanyard is. Well, that explains a lot of things actually about me.

SERWER?: I'll show you my lanyard.

LISOVICZ: We'll sing around the camp fire later. I thought summer vacation was all about just that, going to the beach, staying up late, sleeping many hours. You're telling me that one of the trends is to get ahead, to improve your resume and a lot of kids are doing this at their parents' insistence.

SOLOMON: I wouldn't necessarily call it a trend. I think that the general traditional camp is still the most popular type of program for younger children. However, with more and more older children now going to summer camp, the opportunity to take academic enrichment programs, classes that will give them some advancement or give them just a taste of what it would be like to go away to college have become very popular and certainly community service programs and some of these other projects that children can be involved can certainly enhance a resume, make an application to college look that much better.

CAFFERTY: Is that what childhood should really be about though I wonder and I ask that in a very philosophical sense. I know here on the east coast, particularly in cities like New York from the moment the kid leaves the nursery, it's like what kind of preschool can I get him into so that he can go to the right private school, so can go to the right secondary school, get into the right type (ph) of high school, get into the right college. And if we can get summer camp into the mix so we can get that on his resume, I mean are we overdoing it with just maybe not letting these kids go out in the back yard and make some mud pies and throw them at each other and just be kids?

SOLOMON: Well, mud pies I'm sure are fun a children should still certainly enjoy doing that, however, I think our society is on a fast track. We are always looking to get ahead and get our kids ahead. And once you realize these programs are not punitive, the kids are not there to be punished. They're there to have a good time and certainly to learn and to improve skills and the reports we get back from families and particularly from the children is that they really had a great time. So, the element of fun is still there. It doesn't mean that by taking an interesting class or being involved in a community service program or doing some scuba diving that you're not having a good time. I think the kids are having a great time and the reports indicate that but they're also learning. They're developing skills and things that may give them a jump in their future careers and lives.

SERWER: Hey Jeffrey, let me ask you about this whole communication issue. This is a very controversial topic amongst campers and parents. How much communication is right? Some of these camps now have web cams -- I love this -- that follow your little darlings around so you can monitor them 24/7 on the Internet. I mean others of them have e-mail. Some of you are allowed to have cell phones. What about regular good old snail mail. I mean what happened to that?

SOLOMON: Well, certainly, snail mail still exists, however, as suggested by the term snail mail, it is a slow process and parents do like to hear from their children on a more regular basis and certainly e-mail can accomplish that. I think technology certainly has found its way into summer camp and I think it has a benefit. It has a place for families that want to be able to turn on their computer and get a view of what's going on at camp, it certainly is an enhancement to the camp program. Children seem to enjoy it, the communication, as I said, is much improved. Children are still able to write letters home, but you write a letter, it's going to take a few days before mom or dad can get it and then respond to it, it'll take a few more days.

LISOVICZ: Jeff, it seems like camp has evolved quite a bit since the camp Grenada days, but all of these, you know, all this global jet setting and all of these skills that you can learn and the web casting and all this, it comes at a price. Do you get like tuition aid or financial aid for going to these kinds of camps?

SOLOMON: Not typically. These programs are not for everybody financially. They can be cost prohibitive. These programs also tend to not be like a typical camp that can enroll up to 300 or 400 children for a summer. These are smaller numbers and so they don't really have margins to be able to offer financial assistance. So it is for those that can afford it or feel that it's a worthwhile investment to make for their children.

CAFFERTY: What the most I can spend to send my little darling away to camp? SOLOMON: You're welcome to send me a check for anything you'd like Jack, but --

CAFFERTY: You're not my little darling. What's a high end camp? What do they cost?

SOLOMON: The camps can run well over $1,000 a week. If I wanted to do a scuba diving Caribbean type expedition for a few weeks, that could run you $4,000, or $5,000 for a three or four-week program and that may not be including the transportation costs on top of that or if you have to provide equipment for the program.

SERWER: All right. Jeffrey Solomon, who can short sheet a bed with the best of them I'm sure, director of the National Camp Association. Thanks for coming on.

SOLOMON: Thank you for having me.

SERWER: Time for some ads, but stick around. Coming up after the break, mobile phones that really move. See how a couple of pranksters take cell phone etiquette to new extremes on our fun site of the week and talk with your hands. If you don't like what we're covering or you want to just pass a compliment, sit down and type us an e-mail. Our address is inthemoney@cnn.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: If you logged on to kerryedwards.com to find out where exactly the White House hopefuls were grandstanding this week, well, you were out of luck. Likewise, if you checked out kerry-edwards.com or even kerryedwards2004.com, not there either. These sites have all been snatched up and pinned with a hefty price tag. Money.com webmaster Allen Wastler joins us now with a look at the illegal practice of something called cyber squatting.

ALLEN WASTLER, MONEY.COM: Cyber squatting. This actually grew up in the beginning of the Internet bubble, OK, some wise web people said, if I went out and snagged a name that somebody is going to need eventually they'd have to pay me for it wouldn't they? So they went out and they snagged -- basically they went after corporations, Panasonic, Hertz, Avon. These were some of the corporations they went out, boom and did it.

LISOVICZ: But also celebrities, too.

WASTLER: Celebrities, too. They just grab it and basically it's an extortion scheme. Hey, I got your domain. It's mine.

CAFFERTY: That's kind of the American way isn't it?

WASTLER: Well, you know, if you're a company and you've built a brand name and somebody is like throwing up pictures of, let's say, an untoward quality on there, it could damage your brand name.

CAFFERTY: Which website is that?

SERWER: What's the URL?

WASTLER: I was going to tell you later, later. Anyway, so Congress passed a law in 1999 which outlawed cyber squatting. So now if somebody takes a domain that you think should rightfully be yours, you can actually sue under this law. Also you can go to icon, which is the international governing body for Internet addresses and they have an arbitration procedure. But political sites, this is bringing up a whole new question because you can say, no, I'm using it for parody. I'm making a political statement with this domain name. That's why you have whitehouse.org. If you go to that, it's a humor site that's making fun of everything the government is doing.

SERWER?: That sounds productive.

WASTLER: Yes, a lot of these Kerry sites, a lot of the Kerry sites, you know, kerryedwards.com, it's owned by a bail bondsman who bought it five years ago who put his kids picture up on it.

SERWER?: He gets that five years ago.

WASTLER: So he can argue that it was a legitimate family site. There you go. There's the guy. But others are putting sort of anti- Kerry/Edwards statements on there and just working it that way. So it brings up an interesting question.

CAFFERTY: The bottom line for political stuff, it might be legal but it ain't kosher.

WASTLER: Sometimes it's funny.

CAFFERTY: What about the fun site of the week?

WASTLER: I heard you guys talking about cell phone etiquette.

LISOVICZ: We're complaining about it.

SERWER: Not me.

WASTLER: A couple guys in England ripped off a couple of those promotional cell phone suits and they decided to do something about it. There's their mission statement.

CAFFERTY?: Phone bashing.

WASTLER: Phonebashing.com.

SERWER?: That's blasphemous.

WASTLER: And then they proceeded to go around and when they thought that someone was being rude with a cell phone, well they just sort of ran up, grabbed it out of their hands. Here you go. This is their first effort at it. They take the cell phone. They throw it to the ground. They stomp on it and then they run, run, run.

CAFFERTY?: It's terrific.

WASTLER: The hip grab. I really like the hip grab because they're sort of like going for it.

LISOVICZ: He wasn't even talking on the phone.

WASTLER: Apparently they'd witnessed some...

SERWER: These guys need jobs.

CAFFERY: They have a job. This is terrific. We should have a whole army of these people in this country, in this city, on the buses that Serwer rides back and forth to work.

SERWER: I'm one of those nut jobs.

CAFFERTY: I'm going to send them to your house where you don't have a phone so you can deal with them and tell them where to go. You can deal with those people

WASTLER: This is what the Internet's made for, right?

CAFFERTY: I love it.

LISOVICZ: But nobody complained. Right, nobody demanded their money back for their smashed phone.

WASTLER: You never know. Well, they ran and ran and ran.

SERWER: (INAUDIBLE) They beat them up instead.

LISOVICZ: Assault and battery.

CAFFERTY: What is it? Cellphonebashing.com.

WASTLER: Phonebashing.com.

CAFFERTY: Phonebashing.com.

WASTLER: If people can't remember it, they can go to our show (ph) page and we'll have the address.

LISOVICZ: Andrew's going to be up next.

CAFFERTY: Thanks Allen. Coming up on next on "IN THE MONEY," we're going to channel you the viewers. We're going to read some of your e-mails just ahead and if you want to drop a note the virtual mailbag is always open. The address is inthemoney@cnn.com. Unburden yourselves of the burning issues that are troubling your very soul.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAFFERTY: It's time now to read your answers to our question from last week. What makes you proud to be an American? Bob in Idaho wrote this. I'm proud to be an American because of the very traits we demonstrated in Iraq, because our actions at Abu Ghraib horrified us while it would be mild for most other countries' prisons.

Another viewer, David says, I'm proud that we have a democratic system in place that will enable the voters to choose their government officials. I'm a proud American who voted for Bush and I will not compound that mistake by voting for him again.

Finally Jeff from Massachusetts writes this -- what makes me proud to be an American this July fourth and every moment of every day is that I have the freedom to e-mail your program with my opinions that I wish to state and that you have the freedom to read any opinions that you wish.

SERWER: Here, here.

CAFFERTY: And we did and that concludes that deal. Now for this week's question, what is the worst cell phone horror story you have ever had? And we would love to hear from the little old lady who was on the bus when Andy Serwer -- please, please write to us.

SERWER: I want to hear her side of the story.

CAFFERTY: Send your answers to "IN THE MONEY" at cnn.com. And you should visit or show page at money.com/in the money. That's where you'll find the address of our fun site of the week. Check that out. Thank you meantime for joining us for this edition of "IN THE MONEY." Thanks to CNN correspondent Susan Lisovicz, "Fortune" magazine editor at large Andy Serwer and money.com managing editor Allen Wastler.

Join us next week, Saturday at 1:00, Sunday at 3:00 for more of this. Or you can catch Andy and me all week long on "AMERICAN MORNING." That's starts at 7:00 Eastern time here on CNN. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

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