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American Morning
Yasser Arafat Faces Revolt; Interrogation Techniques, Making Them Talk
Aired July 19, 2004 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone, on a Monday morning. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Heidi Collins is working with me here. Soledad is off, resting, taking care of herself during the pregnancy.
How are you?
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: I'm great. I'm good.
HEMMER: Yes?
COLLINS: We're not resting.
HEMMER: No, we're not.
In a moment here, there could be a serious breakdown of authority unfolding right now in the Middle East, specifically Gaza. Leadership positions are being shuffled among the Palestinians. We'll look at why the sudden changes, and how they could affect security in that region. We'll get to that very intriguing story in a moment here.
COLLINS: Also this morning, we're going to talk about military interrogations with a man who conducted them. He's written a book about it, and he can tell us how far teams actually go and about the mind games they use to pry out information.
HEMMER: Very interesting stuff, too.
Also, "90-Second Pop" on a Monday. This morning, we're looking at the salary dispute on the hit show, "CSI," that apparently cost two cast members their jobs. We'll consider what happens now for the actors and for the show in a few minutes here on AMERICAN MORNING.
COLLINS: For now, though, two officials are claiming they are head of general security in Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinian president, Yasser Arafat, is saying nothing. The removal of the security chief has sparked violent demonstrations in Gaza.
Alessio Vinci is live now in Jerusalem with more on this.
Alessio -- hello.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Heidi.
Well, the Palestinian cabinet has been in session now for the last three hours in the West Bank town of Ramallah. That session is still ongoing. We do not know exactly what is the outcome of that meeting, and we do not even know whether the prime minister, Ahmed Qorei, the Palestinian prime minister, has indeed carried out his threat to resign a third time in just as many days. Chairman Arafat has rejected those demands for resignation already twice.
We do know and we do understand from Palestinian officials that should he resign a third time in protest of this chaos taking place in Gaza, then Mr. Arafat would be left with no choice but to accept the resignations.
All this is, of course, in response to increased violence taking place in Gaza over the weekend with militants and members of Arafat's own Fatah movement taking to the streets protests in a series of new appointments within the security structure of the Palestinian Authority.
About 1,000 demonstrators, many of them armed, attacked first a police station and the town of Khan Younis and is burning it to the ground. A bit later on in the day, surrounded the headquarters of the Palestinian intelligence in Rafah, clashing there with police officers inside. Ten people were wounded as a result of those clashes.
Those clashes again, once Arafat appointed his own nephew as the head of the new security services in Gaza, a move that many had seen -- that Arafat wanted to show as an attempt to reform the security services the man made, not just for the international community, but also from within Gaza itself.
Many of the Palestinian protesters were basically saying the appointment of Arafat's own nephew basically means that it is replacing corruption with more corruption. Therefore, these changes are not enough to show that Arafat is serious about introducing reforms.
Now, to make matters even more complicated is the demand this man -- the man that Arafat's cousin has replaced is now saying that he has been restated in his job. Therefore, basically at this point, it does appear from reports from Gaza that there are two chiefs of national security in Gaza. Arafat is not talking. We do not know exactly what happened and why the two men are both claiming the job. We do know, however, at this time it appears that chaos is prevailing within the security forces in Gaza itself.
Heidi -- back to you.
COLLINS: All right, Alessio Vinci, thanks so much for that.
We also want to take a quick shot of Ahmed Qorei. He is speaking live, as you can see here now, in Ramallah. He is, as we have said, the Palestinian prime minister, trying to learn a little bit more about whether or not he will indeed resign. We'll be following that for you and bring it to you just as soon as we learn anything -- Bill.
HEMMER: Heidi, 26 minutes now before the hour.
The need for intelligence is said to have led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad. But what happened there does not paint a complete picture of how prisoners are made to reveal what they know.
In a new book out, it's called "The Interrogators," a former Army interrogator reveals the complex methods and the training that got results in Afghanistan. The book's author, Chris Mackey, is our guest here in New York City.
Good morning to you. Nice to have you here.
CHRIS MACKEY, AUTHOR, "THE INTERROGATORS": Good morning. Thanks, Bill.
HEMMER: One thing I found very fascinating in your book, al Qaeda manuals found in Afghanistan say America was weak because America did not torture its prisoners. How did that affect your job once you got that information?
MACKEY: Well, the capture of the al Qaeda manual really did help us. It was, in a sense, we kind of caught the enemy's playbook, and it allowed us to have a broader understanding of what it was that they were doing to resist our interrogations. So, it really helped us a lot.
HEMMER: Since Abu Ghraib, has it made it more difficult for interrogators to do their jobs?
MACKEY: I think it has been more difficult in some senses. But I think that the outcome of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal is a positive thing, because it allows interrogators to be reminded of the fact that they are under great scrutiny. And I think that's a good thing.
HEMMER: What tactics did you use to get information?
MACKEY: Well, everything that we did was sort of along the line of trickery and psychological ploys. That was sort of our modus operandi. But the best techniques that we had were modified versions of what we had been taught in the schoolhouse all along.
And some of the most remarkable ones were once we had cultural understanding of who it was that we were fighting, we were able to adapt some of those strategies.
HEMMER: When you say cultural, what do you mean?
MACKEY: Well, for example, in the schoolhouse we were taught how to interrogate prisoners who were from the Eastern Blocs. We envisioned a Cold War scenario. But once we were able to adapt some of those tactics, for example, pitting cultural biases against one other and convincing prisoners that they were being sold out by people that they knew.
For example, a Moroccan being sold out by an Algerian. There's tension there. And when we were able to exploit that, we achieved our ends. It was a very effective rose. HEMMER: There were mental games that you played against one prisoner versus the other, is what you are saying?
MACKEY: Right. It was very useful to go into the prison population, identify from which places these people had come, and then basically exploit their own prejudices that they had against one another.
HEMMER: And that would break them?
MACKEY: Well, it was part of a more elaborate scheme to break people, because once they feel that they're not being helped by their fellow prisoners, once they feel that they are being sold out, for example, it was much easier to get them to talk.
HEMMER: Did you ever stop an attack based on the information you got from a prisoner?
MACKEY: We certainly prevented some troops from, for instance, crossing some land-mined areas that had been mined by our opponents. They also prevented some folks who were in Rome -- we think that when we were in Afghanistan, we heard some radio reports about a raid that the police did in Rome on a safe house that we reported on. So, we were really pleased by that.
HEMMER: How do you know that -- how do you know if someone is not lying? Because all of the information we've gotten based on various reports, sometimes it's proved true and many times it is proved false because they are giving you the wrong leads. How do you tell the difference?
MACKEY: Well, we're lucky because we have a lot of different intelligence assets -- signal intelligence and imagery intelligence. And before any action is ever taken, they have to have a certain redundancy from different intelligence collection sources. So, when we are able to...
HEMMER: So, what does that mean, Chris? You need to hear it twice? Do you need to hear it three times?
MACKEY: Well, that's up to the battlefield commander and the people who are making the decisions. But I think usually they look for at least twice some sort of redundancy from two different types of intelligence.
HEMMER: Do you think through interrogation that you could find the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden?
MACKEY: I think that that's one of the ways that we have to hope that we're going to find him. In this type of a campaign, some of the best intelligence assets that we have, the most expensive and sophisticated are not of much use. Human intelligence, the people on the ground reporting is going to be probably the secret to unlock where people of his level and stature...
HEMMER: Why do you believe he is still unaccounted for? MACKEY: I think that he's being protected by some very loyal people, some ideologically steeled allies that are allowing him to remain undetected. And America is probably exercising everything that it can to sort of unhinge that.
HEMMER: Interesting book. Thanks for sharing. Chris Mackey, author of "The Interrogators," nice to see you.
MACKEY: Thank you for having me.
HEMMER: All right -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Still to come this morning, the governor of California in some hot water. We're going to be talking about that.
Also, it's literally an uphill battle if Lance Armstrong wants to win a record sixth straight Tour de France. It's all coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER BREAK)
COLLINS: We're going to check in with Jack and the "Question of the Day" now, and taking us back to California.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Back to California, yes. Governor Schwarzenegger made the news. He referred to a bunch of Democratic legislators as "girlie-men" over the weekend. He was speaking at a rally, and he was referring to them because they were delaying the state budget and said he -- claimed that they were caving in to special interests.
Critics say that the phrase "girlie-men" is sexist and homophobic. The governor's spokesman says it was a forceful way of showing that legislators are wimps when being pushed around by special interests.
Anyway, should he apologize is the question.
Here are the answers.
Mel in Cornwall-on-Hudson: "The governor was indulging in a bit of self-parody, quoting a 'Saturday Night Live' spoof. It's really pretty harmless. And as memorable as President Truman's 'do nothing congress,' people should stop being so willing to be offended."
Bill writes: "In his country" -- that would be Austria -- "'girlie-men' is a derogatory name applied to homosexuals. Therefore, he was calling them queers. Do you think a governor should be calling people queers?"
And Bill in Alexandria, Virginia -- a different Bill: "Arnold's comment about 'girlie-men' does not make him sexist or homophobic. It just shows him as he is -- a jerk."
am@cnn.com.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: You're welcome.
HEMMER: In a moment here, we'll look at one of the massive wildfires burning in the West now, and see whether or not firefighters are having any success in controlling it. Back in a moment here after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Forty-six minutes past the hour. Back to Daryn Kagan with a check of the news this morning.
Daryn -- good morning.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, once again we're going to start in Iraq. And good morning to you. Another attack on Iraqi police. Officials say that a suicide bombing this morning killed at least nine people outside of a police station in Baghdad. The explosion injured at least 60 others.
Meanwhile, an Islamic Web site says that insurgent are promising $280,000 to anyone who kills interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. Over the weekend, Allawi ordered the reopening of a newspaper run by radical Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Here in the U.S., officials are taking the fight against terrorism on the road. The CIA and the FBI have been sending experts to small towns across the U.S. to brief authorities on the terror threat. An official tells CNN the project began several weeks ago.
To California now. Fire crews are forcing thousands of people to evacuate. A raging wildfire in northern Los Angeles County has already burned more than 3,000 acres. Soaring temperatures and strong winds have made it difficult to contain the blaze. No injuries have been reported.
In Colorado, there is another pretrial hearing today in the Kobe Bryant sexual assault case. A judge will be asked to decide whether the trial should be televised. Also on the agenda, the issue of the accuser's right to privacy. Attorneys will debate in private whether jurors should hear details about the woman's sexual history.
And finally, riders in the Tour de France are enjoying a rest day today before heading toward the Alps. Lance Armstrong made some significant gains over the weekend. He is now in second place, 22 seconds behind the leader. This week's mountain stages and individual time trials will decide if Armstrong wins an unprecedented sixth straight tour.
Heidi, I know you're a fan. I was looking ahead. Thursday is supposed to be the key day, and, of course, everything wrapping up on Sunday.
COLLINS: Yes, Jan Ullrich, though, his arch rival...
KAGAN: Bye-bye.
COLLINS: ... six-and-a-half minutes or so behind.
KAGAN: Yes, that's where we say, "au revoir."
COLLINS: Au revoir, yes. Say it nicely. All right, Daryn, thanks so much for that.
Still to come this morning, some "90-Second Pop." We'll tell you why some folks say Britney Spears is a rebel without a clause. Stay with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It's "90-Second Pop" for a Monday, and the gang is all here. Toure, contributing editor for "Rolling Stone," "New York" magazine contributing editor Sarah Bernard, and Andy Borowitz, chairman and CEO of borowitzreport.com.
OK, now we've got all of those titles out of the way. Let's talk about "I, Robot." It stepped all over Spidey, didn't it? Like 53 million or something.
SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: That's right.
COLLINS: What's happening here?
TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: Every summer Will Smith comes and saves the world. This is the fourth time. It's an American summer tradition.
COLLINS: Really?
TOURE: So, we've got to have Will come. This year, of course, it's technology anxiety that we're afraid of. Robots are going to change the world. And there's the Pinocchio myth. But ultimately it's a smart -- well, it's Pinocchio because it's a wooden boy, a wooden doll that wants to become real. So, the robot wants to become real, but ultimately it's just fun. It's a smart action movie. I liked it. I think Andy liked it.
ANDY BOROWITZ, CHAIRMAN & CEO, BOROWITZREPORT.COM: I did like it.
TOURE: Everyone else that I was with in the theater, my crew, didn't like it.
COLLINS: Really?
TOURE: But I loved it. I liked it.
BOROWITZ: So, you went with robots.
TOURE: Right.
BOROWITZ: Robots will hate this film.
COLLINS: They're so hard to please.
BOROWITZ: Robots will hate this film. It doesn't end well for robots.
BERNARD: Did you read into it all the metaphors?
TOURE: Yes.
BERNARD: That all of the reviews said the races metaphors going on. All of the...
TOURE: Well, yes. There's an interesting, like, robot prejudice thing. Like Will Smith doesn't like robots. And he's like the only Archie Bunker of the robot world.
COLLINS: So, you're supposed to take it to a higher level.
TOURE: And it is.
BERNARD: And there's one thing where he's like robot profiling, right?
TOURE: Right, right, right.
BERNARD: Because he thinks the robot did something that it might not have done just because it's a robot.
TOURE: Right.
BERNARD: So, it's got all of these other levels.
COLLINS: Oh. So, it's kind of sad.
BERNARD: Well, yes.
TOURE: Because Will Smith doesn't do brooding very well.
COLLINS: OK.
TOURE: So, you know, that sort of element of it is a little slow, but it's fun to have.
COLLINS: All right.
BERNARD: Yes, he warms it up.
TOURE: It's enjoyable.
COLLINS: Let's talk a little about "CSI" now. Apparently two of the, like, main stars have been fired because they asked for too much money?
BERNARD: They want more money. Can you believe it? I know.
COLLINS: Well, let's talk about how much they make. Do we got any figures?
BERNARD: Yes, they make about 100,000 an episode, which doesn't sound too bad to me, I have to say. But you know, the show just got nominated for an Emmy last week. It's obviously doing great. There is going to be a third, you know, breakout in New York actually.
BOROWITZ: A spin-off, yes.
BERNARD: A spin-off. And Jorja Fox and George Eads, they really want to get as much as their other co-stars make. Marg Helgenberger makes about 20 -- no, I think 225 an episode or something like that. So, they obviously are on the lower scale. But what happens is...
BOROWITZ: You know, I think they ought do a spin-off called "CSI: Salary Disputes." Every episode there are a couple of people missing, and you have to figure out how much they ask for.
BERNARD: They're just protesting.
BOROWITZ: But that would be an awesome show.
BERNARD: But the thing is it's not like "Friends," where the sitcom ensemble chemistry is so much more important.
BOROWITZ: Right.
BERNARD: That's why they did a million dollars each on "Friends." They are much more replaceable in a drama like this.
BOROWITZ: Anybody can hold a tweezer. Yes, I could do that.
BERNARD: Well, I think that's why, because the whole show...
BOROWITZ: I'm available, by the way.
BERNARD: The whole show is more important than those two actors.
COLLINS: All right, Andy, let's get to this next one now. Britney Spears...
BOROWITZ: Right.
COLLINS: ... and Kevin Federline are all over the place these days on the cover of "People" magazine. If you read the tabloids, like I know you guys do, details are now coming out about Britney's nuptials.
BOROWITZ: Right. Are we allowed to say that on TV?
COLLINS: I think so, if you say it carefully.
BOROWITZ: OK. Well, I'm very proud to be on the national Britney Spears desk. I'm thrilled that you approached me with that stuff. Yes, well she is -- I guess this is her second marriage. And she's marrying the dancer, which I guess is the traditional second marriage. That's like J.Lo also did that.
BERNARD: Right.
BOROWITZ: It's very exciting. She's marrying him. And the nuptials, I guess, are budgeted at $1.8 million.
COLLINS: Good lord!
BOROWITZ: Britney has ordered 300 cases of Cristal Champagne, plus she has to get something for the guests to drink. So, it's just a budgetary problem.
BERNARD: I think ginseng for them.
BOROWITZ: Ginseng for them.
TOURE: You know, I mean, there is no pre-nuptial agreement here...
COLLINS: Right.
TOURE: ... which is my favorite part of the story. I want to fast-forward ahead, like, nine, 10 years, to the behind the music, like how Britney lost it all. I mean, this is going to be the most exciting...
BOROWITZ: Britney should be in a movie called "I, Idiot," I think.
BERNARD: Oh, no!
BOROWITZ: The pre-nuptial thing...
BERNARD: No!
COLLINS: Yikes!
BERNARD: I think this is the most rebellious thing she can do, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: She's rebelled in every other way. She's like, mom, I'm not going to have a pre-nup. That's like the ultimate...
TOURE: Right.
COLLINS: So, it doesn't have anything to do with, like, really loving the guy and just not feeling like that's necessary, right?
BOROWITZ: Well, maybe she is. I don't know.
BERNARD: We're like, no. No way!
COLLINS: And you can't go that far, can you? All right.
BOROWITZ: She's got 55 hours of marriage experience under her belt.
BERNARD: That's right. She's...
BOROWITZ: This one is going to work. Take that to the bank.
COLLINS: All right, you guys, thanks so much for being with us as always. Andy, Sarah and Toure, thanks again -- Bill.
HEMMER: Hey, Heidi?
COLLINS: Yes.
HEMMER: What's Toure got on his T-shirt over there?
COLLINS: It says "Vote or Die."
BERNARD: Vote or die!
TOURE: That's right, baby. Vote or die, robots.
COLLINS: He is not messing around.
HEMMER: Hopefully the former, right?
TOURE: Yes.
COLLINS: Exactly.
HEMMER: Thanks, Toure.
A break here. In a moment on that same topic, when the convention starts next week for the Democrats in Boston it's supposed to be different from anything else we have seen before. Will it be? We'll talk to John Kerry's daughter, Vanessa, setting the stage for us ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 19, 2004 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone, on a Monday morning. Welcome back to AMERICAN MORNING. Heidi Collins is working with me here. Soledad is off, resting, taking care of herself during the pregnancy.
How are you?
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: I'm great. I'm good.
HEMMER: Yes?
COLLINS: We're not resting.
HEMMER: No, we're not.
In a moment here, there could be a serious breakdown of authority unfolding right now in the Middle East, specifically Gaza. Leadership positions are being shuffled among the Palestinians. We'll look at why the sudden changes, and how they could affect security in that region. We'll get to that very intriguing story in a moment here.
COLLINS: Also this morning, we're going to talk about military interrogations with a man who conducted them. He's written a book about it, and he can tell us how far teams actually go and about the mind games they use to pry out information.
HEMMER: Very interesting stuff, too.
Also, "90-Second Pop" on a Monday. This morning, we're looking at the salary dispute on the hit show, "CSI," that apparently cost two cast members their jobs. We'll consider what happens now for the actors and for the show in a few minutes here on AMERICAN MORNING.
COLLINS: For now, though, two officials are claiming they are head of general security in Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinian president, Yasser Arafat, is saying nothing. The removal of the security chief has sparked violent demonstrations in Gaza.
Alessio Vinci is live now in Jerusalem with more on this.
Alessio -- hello.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Heidi.
Well, the Palestinian cabinet has been in session now for the last three hours in the West Bank town of Ramallah. That session is still ongoing. We do not know exactly what is the outcome of that meeting, and we do not even know whether the prime minister, Ahmed Qorei, the Palestinian prime minister, has indeed carried out his threat to resign a third time in just as many days. Chairman Arafat has rejected those demands for resignation already twice.
We do know and we do understand from Palestinian officials that should he resign a third time in protest of this chaos taking place in Gaza, then Mr. Arafat would be left with no choice but to accept the resignations.
All this is, of course, in response to increased violence taking place in Gaza over the weekend with militants and members of Arafat's own Fatah movement taking to the streets protests in a series of new appointments within the security structure of the Palestinian Authority.
About 1,000 demonstrators, many of them armed, attacked first a police station and the town of Khan Younis and is burning it to the ground. A bit later on in the day, surrounded the headquarters of the Palestinian intelligence in Rafah, clashing there with police officers inside. Ten people were wounded as a result of those clashes.
Those clashes again, once Arafat appointed his own nephew as the head of the new security services in Gaza, a move that many had seen -- that Arafat wanted to show as an attempt to reform the security services the man made, not just for the international community, but also from within Gaza itself.
Many of the Palestinian protesters were basically saying the appointment of Arafat's own nephew basically means that it is replacing corruption with more corruption. Therefore, these changes are not enough to show that Arafat is serious about introducing reforms.
Now, to make matters even more complicated is the demand this man -- the man that Arafat's cousin has replaced is now saying that he has been restated in his job. Therefore, basically at this point, it does appear from reports from Gaza that there are two chiefs of national security in Gaza. Arafat is not talking. We do not know exactly what happened and why the two men are both claiming the job. We do know, however, at this time it appears that chaos is prevailing within the security forces in Gaza itself.
Heidi -- back to you.
COLLINS: All right, Alessio Vinci, thanks so much for that.
We also want to take a quick shot of Ahmed Qorei. He is speaking live, as you can see here now, in Ramallah. He is, as we have said, the Palestinian prime minister, trying to learn a little bit more about whether or not he will indeed resign. We'll be following that for you and bring it to you just as soon as we learn anything -- Bill.
HEMMER: Heidi, 26 minutes now before the hour.
The need for intelligence is said to have led to the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad. But what happened there does not paint a complete picture of how prisoners are made to reveal what they know.
In a new book out, it's called "The Interrogators," a former Army interrogator reveals the complex methods and the training that got results in Afghanistan. The book's author, Chris Mackey, is our guest here in New York City.
Good morning to you. Nice to have you here.
CHRIS MACKEY, AUTHOR, "THE INTERROGATORS": Good morning. Thanks, Bill.
HEMMER: One thing I found very fascinating in your book, al Qaeda manuals found in Afghanistan say America was weak because America did not torture its prisoners. How did that affect your job once you got that information?
MACKEY: Well, the capture of the al Qaeda manual really did help us. It was, in a sense, we kind of caught the enemy's playbook, and it allowed us to have a broader understanding of what it was that they were doing to resist our interrogations. So, it really helped us a lot.
HEMMER: Since Abu Ghraib, has it made it more difficult for interrogators to do their jobs?
MACKEY: I think it has been more difficult in some senses. But I think that the outcome of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal is a positive thing, because it allows interrogators to be reminded of the fact that they are under great scrutiny. And I think that's a good thing.
HEMMER: What tactics did you use to get information?
MACKEY: Well, everything that we did was sort of along the line of trickery and psychological ploys. That was sort of our modus operandi. But the best techniques that we had were modified versions of what we had been taught in the schoolhouse all along.
And some of the most remarkable ones were once we had cultural understanding of who it was that we were fighting, we were able to adapt some of those strategies.
HEMMER: When you say cultural, what do you mean?
MACKEY: Well, for example, in the schoolhouse we were taught how to interrogate prisoners who were from the Eastern Blocs. We envisioned a Cold War scenario. But once we were able to adapt some of those tactics, for example, pitting cultural biases against one other and convincing prisoners that they were being sold out by people that they knew.
For example, a Moroccan being sold out by an Algerian. There's tension there. And when we were able to exploit that, we achieved our ends. It was a very effective rose. HEMMER: There were mental games that you played against one prisoner versus the other, is what you are saying?
MACKEY: Right. It was very useful to go into the prison population, identify from which places these people had come, and then basically exploit their own prejudices that they had against one another.
HEMMER: And that would break them?
MACKEY: Well, it was part of a more elaborate scheme to break people, because once they feel that they're not being helped by their fellow prisoners, once they feel that they are being sold out, for example, it was much easier to get them to talk.
HEMMER: Did you ever stop an attack based on the information you got from a prisoner?
MACKEY: We certainly prevented some troops from, for instance, crossing some land-mined areas that had been mined by our opponents. They also prevented some folks who were in Rome -- we think that when we were in Afghanistan, we heard some radio reports about a raid that the police did in Rome on a safe house that we reported on. So, we were really pleased by that.
HEMMER: How do you know that -- how do you know if someone is not lying? Because all of the information we've gotten based on various reports, sometimes it's proved true and many times it is proved false because they are giving you the wrong leads. How do you tell the difference?
MACKEY: Well, we're lucky because we have a lot of different intelligence assets -- signal intelligence and imagery intelligence. And before any action is ever taken, they have to have a certain redundancy from different intelligence collection sources. So, when we are able to...
HEMMER: So, what does that mean, Chris? You need to hear it twice? Do you need to hear it three times?
MACKEY: Well, that's up to the battlefield commander and the people who are making the decisions. But I think usually they look for at least twice some sort of redundancy from two different types of intelligence.
HEMMER: Do you think through interrogation that you could find the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden?
MACKEY: I think that that's one of the ways that we have to hope that we're going to find him. In this type of a campaign, some of the best intelligence assets that we have, the most expensive and sophisticated are not of much use. Human intelligence, the people on the ground reporting is going to be probably the secret to unlock where people of his level and stature...
HEMMER: Why do you believe he is still unaccounted for? MACKEY: I think that he's being protected by some very loyal people, some ideologically steeled allies that are allowing him to remain undetected. And America is probably exercising everything that it can to sort of unhinge that.
HEMMER: Interesting book. Thanks for sharing. Chris Mackey, author of "The Interrogators," nice to see you.
MACKEY: Thank you for having me.
HEMMER: All right -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Still to come this morning, the governor of California in some hot water. We're going to be talking about that.
Also, it's literally an uphill battle if Lance Armstrong wants to win a record sixth straight Tour de France. It's all coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER BREAK)
COLLINS: We're going to check in with Jack and the "Question of the Day" now, and taking us back to California.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Back to California, yes. Governor Schwarzenegger made the news. He referred to a bunch of Democratic legislators as "girlie-men" over the weekend. He was speaking at a rally, and he was referring to them because they were delaying the state budget and said he -- claimed that they were caving in to special interests.
Critics say that the phrase "girlie-men" is sexist and homophobic. The governor's spokesman says it was a forceful way of showing that legislators are wimps when being pushed around by special interests.
Anyway, should he apologize is the question.
Here are the answers.
Mel in Cornwall-on-Hudson: "The governor was indulging in a bit of self-parody, quoting a 'Saturday Night Live' spoof. It's really pretty harmless. And as memorable as President Truman's 'do nothing congress,' people should stop being so willing to be offended."
Bill writes: "In his country" -- that would be Austria -- "'girlie-men' is a derogatory name applied to homosexuals. Therefore, he was calling them queers. Do you think a governor should be calling people queers?"
And Bill in Alexandria, Virginia -- a different Bill: "Arnold's comment about 'girlie-men' does not make him sexist or homophobic. It just shows him as he is -- a jerk."
am@cnn.com.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: You're welcome.
HEMMER: In a moment here, we'll look at one of the massive wildfires burning in the West now, and see whether or not firefighters are having any success in controlling it. Back in a moment here after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Forty-six minutes past the hour. Back to Daryn Kagan with a check of the news this morning.
Daryn -- good morning.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, once again we're going to start in Iraq. And good morning to you. Another attack on Iraqi police. Officials say that a suicide bombing this morning killed at least nine people outside of a police station in Baghdad. The explosion injured at least 60 others.
Meanwhile, an Islamic Web site says that insurgent are promising $280,000 to anyone who kills interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi. Over the weekend, Allawi ordered the reopening of a newspaper run by radical Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.
Here in the U.S., officials are taking the fight against terrorism on the road. The CIA and the FBI have been sending experts to small towns across the U.S. to brief authorities on the terror threat. An official tells CNN the project began several weeks ago.
To California now. Fire crews are forcing thousands of people to evacuate. A raging wildfire in northern Los Angeles County has already burned more than 3,000 acres. Soaring temperatures and strong winds have made it difficult to contain the blaze. No injuries have been reported.
In Colorado, there is another pretrial hearing today in the Kobe Bryant sexual assault case. A judge will be asked to decide whether the trial should be televised. Also on the agenda, the issue of the accuser's right to privacy. Attorneys will debate in private whether jurors should hear details about the woman's sexual history.
And finally, riders in the Tour de France are enjoying a rest day today before heading toward the Alps. Lance Armstrong made some significant gains over the weekend. He is now in second place, 22 seconds behind the leader. This week's mountain stages and individual time trials will decide if Armstrong wins an unprecedented sixth straight tour.
Heidi, I know you're a fan. I was looking ahead. Thursday is supposed to be the key day, and, of course, everything wrapping up on Sunday.
COLLINS: Yes, Jan Ullrich, though, his arch rival...
KAGAN: Bye-bye.
COLLINS: ... six-and-a-half minutes or so behind.
KAGAN: Yes, that's where we say, "au revoir."
COLLINS: Au revoir, yes. Say it nicely. All right, Daryn, thanks so much for that.
Still to come this morning, some "90-Second Pop." We'll tell you why some folks say Britney Spears is a rebel without a clause. Stay with us on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: It's "90-Second Pop" for a Monday, and the gang is all here. Toure, contributing editor for "Rolling Stone," "New York" magazine contributing editor Sarah Bernard, and Andy Borowitz, chairman and CEO of borowitzreport.com.
OK, now we've got all of those titles out of the way. Let's talk about "I, Robot." It stepped all over Spidey, didn't it? Like 53 million or something.
SARAH BERNARD, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE: That's right.
COLLINS: What's happening here?
TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: Every summer Will Smith comes and saves the world. This is the fourth time. It's an American summer tradition.
COLLINS: Really?
TOURE: So, we've got to have Will come. This year, of course, it's technology anxiety that we're afraid of. Robots are going to change the world. And there's the Pinocchio myth. But ultimately it's a smart -- well, it's Pinocchio because it's a wooden boy, a wooden doll that wants to become real. So, the robot wants to become real, but ultimately it's just fun. It's a smart action movie. I liked it. I think Andy liked it.
ANDY BOROWITZ, CHAIRMAN & CEO, BOROWITZREPORT.COM: I did like it.
TOURE: Everyone else that I was with in the theater, my crew, didn't like it.
COLLINS: Really?
TOURE: But I loved it. I liked it.
BOROWITZ: So, you went with robots.
TOURE: Right.
BOROWITZ: Robots will hate this film.
COLLINS: They're so hard to please.
BOROWITZ: Robots will hate this film. It doesn't end well for robots.
BERNARD: Did you read into it all the metaphors?
TOURE: Yes.
BERNARD: That all of the reviews said the races metaphors going on. All of the...
TOURE: Well, yes. There's an interesting, like, robot prejudice thing. Like Will Smith doesn't like robots. And he's like the only Archie Bunker of the robot world.
COLLINS: So, you're supposed to take it to a higher level.
TOURE: And it is.
BERNARD: And there's one thing where he's like robot profiling, right?
TOURE: Right, right, right.
BERNARD: Because he thinks the robot did something that it might not have done just because it's a robot.
TOURE: Right.
BERNARD: So, it's got all of these other levels.
COLLINS: Oh. So, it's kind of sad.
BERNARD: Well, yes.
TOURE: Because Will Smith doesn't do brooding very well.
COLLINS: OK.
TOURE: So, you know, that sort of element of it is a little slow, but it's fun to have.
COLLINS: All right.
BERNARD: Yes, he warms it up.
TOURE: It's enjoyable.
COLLINS: Let's talk a little about "CSI" now. Apparently two of the, like, main stars have been fired because they asked for too much money?
BERNARD: They want more money. Can you believe it? I know.
COLLINS: Well, let's talk about how much they make. Do we got any figures?
BERNARD: Yes, they make about 100,000 an episode, which doesn't sound too bad to me, I have to say. But you know, the show just got nominated for an Emmy last week. It's obviously doing great. There is going to be a third, you know, breakout in New York actually.
BOROWITZ: A spin-off, yes.
BERNARD: A spin-off. And Jorja Fox and George Eads, they really want to get as much as their other co-stars make. Marg Helgenberger makes about 20 -- no, I think 225 an episode or something like that. So, they obviously are on the lower scale. But what happens is...
BOROWITZ: You know, I think they ought do a spin-off called "CSI: Salary Disputes." Every episode there are a couple of people missing, and you have to figure out how much they ask for.
BERNARD: They're just protesting.
BOROWITZ: But that would be an awesome show.
BERNARD: But the thing is it's not like "Friends," where the sitcom ensemble chemistry is so much more important.
BOROWITZ: Right.
BERNARD: That's why they did a million dollars each on "Friends." They are much more replaceable in a drama like this.
BOROWITZ: Anybody can hold a tweezer. Yes, I could do that.
BERNARD: Well, I think that's why, because the whole show...
BOROWITZ: I'm available, by the way.
BERNARD: The whole show is more important than those two actors.
COLLINS: All right, Andy, let's get to this next one now. Britney Spears...
BOROWITZ: Right.
COLLINS: ... and Kevin Federline are all over the place these days on the cover of "People" magazine. If you read the tabloids, like I know you guys do, details are now coming out about Britney's nuptials.
BOROWITZ: Right. Are we allowed to say that on TV?
COLLINS: I think so, if you say it carefully.
BOROWITZ: OK. Well, I'm very proud to be on the national Britney Spears desk. I'm thrilled that you approached me with that stuff. Yes, well she is -- I guess this is her second marriage. And she's marrying the dancer, which I guess is the traditional second marriage. That's like J.Lo also did that.
BERNARD: Right.
BOROWITZ: It's very exciting. She's marrying him. And the nuptials, I guess, are budgeted at $1.8 million.
COLLINS: Good lord!
BOROWITZ: Britney has ordered 300 cases of Cristal Champagne, plus she has to get something for the guests to drink. So, it's just a budgetary problem.
BERNARD: I think ginseng for them.
BOROWITZ: Ginseng for them.
TOURE: You know, I mean, there is no pre-nuptial agreement here...
COLLINS: Right.
TOURE: ... which is my favorite part of the story. I want to fast-forward ahead, like, nine, 10 years, to the behind the music, like how Britney lost it all. I mean, this is going to be the most exciting...
BOROWITZ: Britney should be in a movie called "I, Idiot," I think.
BERNARD: Oh, no!
BOROWITZ: The pre-nuptial thing...
BERNARD: No!
COLLINS: Yikes!
BERNARD: I think this is the most rebellious thing she can do, right?
(CROSSTALK)
BERNARD: She's rebelled in every other way. She's like, mom, I'm not going to have a pre-nup. That's like the ultimate...
TOURE: Right.
COLLINS: So, it doesn't have anything to do with, like, really loving the guy and just not feeling like that's necessary, right?
BOROWITZ: Well, maybe she is. I don't know.
BERNARD: We're like, no. No way!
COLLINS: And you can't go that far, can you? All right.
BOROWITZ: She's got 55 hours of marriage experience under her belt.
BERNARD: That's right. She's...
BOROWITZ: This one is going to work. Take that to the bank.
COLLINS: All right, you guys, thanks so much for being with us as always. Andy, Sarah and Toure, thanks again -- Bill.
HEMMER: Hey, Heidi?
COLLINS: Yes.
HEMMER: What's Toure got on his T-shirt over there?
COLLINS: It says "Vote or Die."
BERNARD: Vote or die!
TOURE: That's right, baby. Vote or die, robots.
COLLINS: He is not messing around.
HEMMER: Hopefully the former, right?
TOURE: Yes.
COLLINS: Exactly.
HEMMER: Thanks, Toure.
A break here. In a moment on that same topic, when the convention starts next week for the Democrats in Boston it's supposed to be different from anything else we have seen before. Will it be? We'll talk to John Kerry's daughter, Vanessa, setting the stage for us ahead here on AMERICAN MORNING.
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