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CNN Larry King Live
Panel Discusses Lori Hacking Case
Aired July 23, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THELMA SOARES, MOTHER OF LORI HACKING: My baby is still out there somewhere, and we need to find here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: More strange revelation in the latest missing mother-to-be mystery in Salt Lake City, Utah. 27-year-old Lori Hacking, five weeks pregnant, vanished Monday morning after she allegedly went out to jog. On Wednesday, shocking news, her husband Mark had apparently lied to her about graduating college and being accepted to medical school in North Carolina where he and Lori were planning to move. And now police say that after Mark called friends to report Lori missing, and before calling the police, he bought' mattress, without a box spring.
With us for the hour, the missing woman Lori Hacking's mother Thelma Soares.
CNN's Ted Rowlands on the scene now in Salt Lake.
Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City Police.
Later Court TV's Nancy Grace, the former prosecutor, renowned forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee, Psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.
And later back in Salt Lake City, Ed Smart, whose daughter Elizabeth survived a nine-month abduction ordeal last year and he has met with Lori Hacking's family. And they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
We begin with Selma Suwari (ph), Themla Soares, am I pronouncing that right, Thelma?
SOARES: That's correct.
KING: Thelma is in Salt Lake City and she's the mother of the missing woman Lori Hacking.
When did you learn that your daughter was missing, Thelma?
SOARES: Monday morning.
KING: How did you learn?
SOARES: Mark called me -- I was at work and I got a phone call from Mark, who informed me that Lori had gone jogging and had never come home.
KING: That had ever happened before?
Had Lori ever wandered off anywhere or gone away for a few days by herself?
SOARES: Never. This is not characteristic of Lori whatsoever. Somebody always knew where she was.
KING: And she had just discovered she was pregnant, right, what, five weeks?
SOARES: Yes, she hadn't even told me yet. Because they had just figured it out a few days prior and Mark told me she was supposed to come to my house for dinner. They were -- both of them actually supposed to come for my house for dinner Sunday and Mark said we were trying to figure up some creative way to break the news to you. But he did tell me Monday that they had just found out that she was five weeks along.
KING: Will this be your first grandchild?
SOARES: No. My son's wife is also pregnant, and due November 1st. So, it would have been a close second.
KING: Do you have other children?
You have a boy and a girl, or any others?
SOARES: No, I only have the two. Lori is my only daughter.
KING: And is she the younger?
SOARES: Yes. She's the younger by 8 years. Actually both of my children are adopted. Paul, my son, is 8 years older than Lori, and she was my baby.
KING: And is your husband with you, as well?
SOARES: No. Lori's father and I have been divorced for 16 years. But, he is here. He came immediately when he found out. He flew -- he still lives in Southern California. And he flew up here immediately and has been here ever since.
KING: Lori and Mark, we understand, know each other a long time, is that right?
SOARES: That's right. This was no fly by night romance. Lori and Mark met the summer before she was a junior and he was a senior in high school. They met at Lake Powell on an outing with a mutual friend.
KING: Did they both grow up in Utah?
SOARES: Well, Lori was born in California, and we lived there until she was 12-years-old. At the time her father and I were divorced Lori and I moved back here. She finished three weeks of fifth grade, then went to sixth grade and has, you know, we have been here since.
KING: All right, now what do you think of Mark, who is listed now, not a suspect, he's listed as someone in the -- he's in the realm of things. Person of interest, they call him. Whatever that means.
SOARES: I think that's what law enforcement calls it. I love Mark with all my heart. He has been a wonderful son-in-law. He is a very handy person. He, no matter when -- in fact I used to laugh because I'd say you guys will never come down here anymore because I have so many things for you to do. I kind of have a to do list for Mark every time he visits. He fixes my cars. He installed my sprinkler system. He fixed my swamp cooler. You know, he just does so many things, and he's almost like a son. When they were dating in high school I used to have to say to him, Mark, it's 10:00, you've got to go home. You kids have got to be in school in the morning. Then I'd say, Mark, it's 10:15, you've got to go home.
KING: Can you say, Thelma, that you cannot fathom him being involved in any way in harming your daughter?
SOARES: Yes. When the police gave us that report the other day I was totally speechless. It felt like the ground opened up and I was going to fall forever. I had no idea, as did his own family. That was -- I still have a hard time believing it's true, although it has been confirmed. And I tried to process this, you know, since we got that news. It's very difficult.
KING: The news that he did not graduate college and was not going to medical school, right?
SOARES: That's correct. That's the news.
KING: Well, how would his wife not know he didn't graduate college?
how would your daughter, who knows him since childhood, not know he didn't graduate college?
You know, many is the time that I went to their apartment. I saw books open. I saw chemistry books open. We talked about his gross anatomy class. Lori every day got up very early. She had to start work at 7:00. And so she would leave home in time to get to work at 7:00. She worked until, let's see I believe she said it was 4:00. She usually got home at 4:30. In the meantime, Mark's job began at 3:00 in the afternoon, and he worked until midnight. So during the week, you know, they didn't -- their paths didn't cross except after Mark got home at night, because she left so early.
KING: What school did he attend?
SOARES: The University of Utah.
KING: OK, now did he attend the University of Utah? SOARES: Oh, yes, he did. And they have records of him taking classes there. In 2002. It was just this last year, 2003 that they have no record.
KING: What do you make of it?
They went to North Carolina, they picked an apartment out. He said he was going to medical school, where, at the University of North Carolina?
SOARES: At Chapel Hill.
KING: Yes. He sent out invitations to his graduation. What do you make of it?
SOARES: I -- I have more questions than you do, Larry. And I have no answers. We're trying, you know, little by little we're trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. And I hope at some time in the future we'll be able to understand this. We all lived this with him. His own mother and father have lived it with him. It's just totally incredible. It's still hard for me to believe that I'm even saying that it's true.
KING: Would you say, to your knowledge, they were a happy couple?
SOARES: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Mark was a very romantic young man, and very tender-hearted, and calm, and, for example, if I may tell you just one small incident.
KING: Sure.
SOARES: When Lori was going to school and one time she called me, it was close -- actually she called me after finals and she said, Mom, I want to tell you what happened. She had been stressed, as we all are when finals come at the university. And she said I was so stressed about this one final, and Mark knew how, you know, worried I was about getting through this final, and I got home late at night, and -- I guess it wasn't too late. But it was after dark. She said I opened my apartment door, and sitting there was a table with a long white tablecloth, and a glowing candle, and two place settings, and a long-stemmed red rose on one of the plates. And there was Mark in my tiny little kitchen making dinner for me. And he had arranged with her roommates to come and do this, and he just did wonderful little tender-hearted things like that for her all the time.
KING: Let's pray. We'll take a break and come back.
SOARES: He adored her.
KING: Let's pray that she's OK and that he's not involved, and all this is some kind of just weird circumstance. In a moment, Thelma will remain with us. We'll bring in Ted Rowlands and Detective Baird. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DOUGLAS HACKING, MARK HACKING'S FATHER: I confronted my son yesterday morning. I looked him in the eye and I said, "I need you to tell me if you had anything to do with Lori's disappearance." And I know you're getting anxious, but I have to tell you that he looked me in the eye and he said, "no."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Remaining with us in Salt Lake City is Thelma Soares, whose daughter Lori Hacking has been missing since going jogging -- reportedly going jogging Monday morning.
Joining us also in Salt Lake City is Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent. Usually on the scene in Modesto but hopping down for this continuing big saga of missing pregnant people.
And in Salt Lake City is Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City police.
What do we mean by person of interest, Detective Baird?
DETECTIVE DWAYNE BAIRD, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE: Well, a person of interest, Larry, is different than a suspect. A suspect is someone that, once we have enough evidence, we believe that we can charge them, we can name them as a suspect. A person of interest, however, is someone that we need to look at, where evidence may be pointing that direction. But, we put a closer focus, perhaps, on their activities and behavior related to a certain case.
KING: Now, as we understand the -- he, the husband has been hospitalized as of early Tuesday for emotional distress. Can you tell us what that is?
BAIRD: I can't. I can only discuss the fact that we know he's hospitalized and we know that according to family members, that he is under some stress. I don't know exactly what his condition is or what his treatment is.
KING: You have not questioned him?
BAIRD: We have questioned him. We've questioned him a couple of times. The latest that I'm aware of is day before yesterday, our detectives were talking to him and we go to the hospital to do that.
KING: I see. Do you know anything, Ted Rowlands, about his condition?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. Other than what family members have said publicly and that is that he is in need of medical treatment, and they're giving it to him. And they have no timetable on it. Talked to his brother just recently, in the last hour, and he said, you know, he needs some help right now, psychologically, and we're going to continue to look for Lori. He's going to continue to get the help. And the family is doing a great job, both families, of really segmenting this out. You know, Mark has these issues and of course these lies floor them. But they're really focusing on Lori right now and they've done a great job along with the smarts of galvanizing this community to continue the search even with all of these side issues going on with her husband.
KING: Thelma, have you been to see your son-in-law? Have you been to see Mark?
SOARES: As a matter of fact, I did see him this afternoon briefly.
KING: And, how is he doing? And what did you talk about?
SOARES: Well, the conversation that was profoundly private. But I will share with you that he was standing up when I went in, and he put his arms out to me, and we embraced each other. And I just told him that, I said, "Mark, didn't you know that my love for you was not conditional upon your becoming a doctor? That I loved you because you're Mark, and because of how you have treated Lori?"
And he cried a little bit. And, you know, I couldn't see him. I was in his arms and he was in my arms. And I'm not going to disclose the rest of the conversation. That's very private at this point. But he seemed -- he is under excellent medical care. And hopefully, as time goes by, we will be able to put all of the pieces together.
KING: Detective Baird, what do you make of the mattress angle?
BAIRD: Well, that's something that I'm not at liberty to discuss in detail. However, we are looking at all angles of any evidence that we would need in this case, and that may be just part of that puzzle.
KING: Have you an explanation for it, Thelma? A mattress without a spring?
SOARES: I have no explanation except that I know their mattress is old. You know, was at least five years old. They got it when they were married. Mark's a big guy. He looks like a football player. They had a cat that, you know, scratches, and that's all I can tell you about the mattress.
KING: Ted Rowlands, were her belongings at home? Purse and everything else? If she went out jogging, she didn't take anything with her, did she?
ROWLANDS: Nothing out of the ordinary, no. It's a typical situation where someone's jogging. Her car was found where she typically goes jogging. And according to one of her friends, she does jog in the mornings in that park. She jogged at all times of the day. But one of her friends from work told me today that yes, she's been jogging a lot lately, especially in the mornings. These two were training for a 10k which is to be run here in Salt Lake City over the weekend. And now they're using that 10k to get out the search effort. They galvanized that, as well. So, you know, it seems ordinary. Everything seems to be in place except for what has come out in the last few days concerning her husband, and that, of course, has a lot of people scratching their heads.
KING: Detective Baird, any signs around the car of foul play?
BAIRD: Not that I'm able to talk about. We're examining both cars. We've taken into our possession her car and his car. And that would be because we need to look at them to determine, perhaps, if there is anything there for us to examine that may come into play in this case. But as far as details of those examinations, I'm not at liberty to discuss those.
KING: I understand. Detective, from an investigative standpoint, lying about medical school doesn't mean -- does that increase someone being suspicious of a crime?
BAIRD: Not necessarily. Larry, that's a good point. Just lying about medical school doesn't necessarily mean that they've, you know, committed any crime in any sense. However, in a sense of the aspect of this case, it may be a piece of the puzzle that we need to look at based on what we know about the family relationship, and the situation that we're involved in with the missing person.
KING: Thelma, does the search continue?
SOARES: The search continues. And, Larry, can you see this little yarn lei as it were that's hanging around my neck?
KING: Sure can.
SOARES: This afternoon one of the helpers just about an hour and a half ago brought this in to me. She is here waiting because she's too young to join in the search. Her mother and her older sister are out right now searching, and this little girl -- excuse me. This little girl brought this and wanted someone to give it to me so that I would know of her love and for their prayers, that they will find Lori. And I have been overwhelmed with the support of the community. The search continues. We need all the help we can get, because Lori is out there somewhere. And we need to find her.
KING: And if you have any information on this case, by the way, you call the Salt Lake City Police, 801-799-3000. 801-799-3000. A Web site has been set up. One word findlori.com.
Thelma, thank you. You're in our prayers. We hope that she returns safe and sound and all this goes away.
SOARES: Thank you very much, Larry.
KING: Thank you, Thelma. Ted Rowlands and Detective Baird remain with us. Nancy Grace, Dr. Henry Lee and Dr. Robi Ludwig join us right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEARLD SOARES, FATHER OF LORI HACKING: I don't think he could do it because he loved Lori too much. And I -- when I came to visit him once a month, they always were holding hands together. They're sneaking a kiss here and there. And he was a gentleman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back.
Staying with us in Salt Lake City is CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands.
Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City Police.
Joining us from Atlanta is Nancy Grace of Court TV anchor and former prosecutor.
In New York is Dr. Henry Lee, one of the world's foremost forensic experts, former commissioner for Connecticut's Department of Public Safety, host of a new Court TV series called "Trace."
And in New York is Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist.
Before talk with the panel, tomorrow night on "America's Most Wanted" they're going to look into this matter. Here's something of what they report, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The subject of the search is a 27-year-old pregnant woman, Lori K. Hacking. Lori went out for a jog in this park, and disappeared. Lori and her husband Mark have been married for 5 years. The couple was getting ready to move to North Carolina, where Mark said he'd been accepted to medical school. Police questioned Mark as is routine in cases like this. But they said he wasn't a suspect in his wife's disappearance. Then, late this week, the mystery became even more complicated with a stunning new turn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just found out a few minutes ago that he never even applied to medical school at North Carolina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a person of interest that we're looking at based on the fact that his wife is missing and that there are some discrepancies in what's going on in his life and in the life of his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Nancy Grace, at this point, when there is no crime yet, does a prosecutor get involved?
NANCY GRACE, COURT TV, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I think that they -- the police know a lot more than what we are hearing tonight, as a matter of fact, we know that Lori's car was last seen -- found parked at Memory Grove Park where she normally parked it to go jogging. We also know that articles of clothing have already been found in a canyon and have been seized. We know that a police source has stated that the most important evidence is probably going to be evidence coming from a city dumpster seized near a church. Larry, please seized not only her car, but his car.
So, right now...
KING: The question was, what is a prosecutor doing at this minute?
GRACE: Right now I imagine that they are getting search warrants prepared for the home. I'm sure that one has already been executed. A search warrant was probably executed for both of the cars. But you know, Larry, right now, this is so different from other cases you and I have talked about, because this family, the marriage seems very happy.
KING: Yes.
GRACE: It's just a very odd coincidences. And now that he has checked himself into a psychiatric unit, we also know that when he was in college, Larry, he studied psychology. And I'm sure prosecutors, if they are looking at him, which I'm not ready to say at this point, they're probably taking into account his knowledge of psychology and whether he is trying to build some type of a mental defect defense.
KING: Is this much too early Dr. Lee, in this case?
Much too early to conjecture?
DR. HENRY LEE, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC SCIENCE: A bit too early. The key here are the mattress. And the mattress disappear could be two possible explanations. One is an innocent type explanation, they want to move, doesn't want to bring the old mattress with them. The second, of course, the mattress may have some evidence, so he got rid of the mattress. If it's the first scenario we should look at the garbage dump. Apparently police already found something. Should look at the garbage, the newspaper, letters, we can sort of dating how long the mattress been in that garbage dump. And how -- why the focus on the garbage dump maybe Mark tell them where he deposit the mattress. If the other way around they'll have to look for blood, for body fluids and other evidence. Don't forget bedding and pillowcase and blanket, those type of things should be looking for, too.
KING: Dr. Ludwig, this is off the top now, again, with scanty information.
Is there anything you can generally tell us about people who lie about college?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, who lie in general. People who lie, especially in a compulsive kind of way, do it as a mood regulator. And often what we found with men who lie, they do it to make themselves seem more macho and attractive, and more desirable. But what's not clear is if this is pathological lying to an extreme, so that it indicates actually a character flaw, anti-social personality or sociopathy which is found in many criminals. So that the lying is done to, you know, influence other people to get over, for sex, money and power.
KING: But what about taking an apartment in a school you're not going to, moving across the country?
LUDWIG: Right. It's not clear, too, if he lied so much to himself that he actually believed it. And that there was some idea, you know, if I say it long enough, it will be true. Or that somehow he would make it happen. Kind of falsifying his life to some degree. What's so interesting here is that nobody in his life knew the truth. And what would happen if he was in danger of being found out?
KING: Hmm. Of course (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doesn't make him a suspect in a crime, because he lied about a matter like college.
Detective Baird, what part in your consideration of him does that lie play?
BAIRD: Well, it's an enormous part, simply because it is part of this scheme of things in his life that was a very important part for he and his family. So much so that he had perpetuated this lie, or the idea of it, anyway, for some time. Especially dealing with having to have an undergraduate degree to even apply for medical school. And then intimating that he not only had applied at medical school but had been excepted. That in itself, was a big part of an elaborate plan if you will, and we need to look at that in the entire aspect of things.
KING: I've got to get a break. Ted Rowlands, this is just off the top, how big is this going to get, this story, do you think?
ROWLANDS: Well, you know, it's hard to say. It's got a lot of interest, because of the fact that this woman is missing, and there is now speculation that the husband may be involved. But, you know, who knows what the short-term resolution, if there is any, will be.
At this point, though, folks here in Salt Lake City are 100 percent behind this effort. And the credit goes to the families, both families, during a very difficult time. They're out there every day urging people to help search for Lori. And that's the case right now.
So for right now it's a big story regionally here. Who knows about any other interest.
KING: When we -- we're going to take a break. When we come back, we'll talk to Ed Smart, who lived through this, you will remember. And then back to our panel and your phone calls. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we get back to the panel, joining us from Salt Lake is Ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted from her bedroom June of 2002 and recovered in March of 2003. He has been active in the search for Lori Hacking and has met with the family. What do you make of this, Ed?
ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: You know, it's -- it comes very close. It's a very close reminder of a couple of years ago. And, the thing is, I think the families, I've been overwhelmed with their strength and their ability to go forward under the current circumstances.
You know, when our family came under scrutiny, the volunteers fell off quite a bit. But it was such a horrendous stress on the family. Nobody can even imagine what they're going through, and I just have been amazed at how well the family is doing to move forward.
KING: Are you able, yourself, since there was a lot of blame going around about your family and you, to withhold any judgment about the husband?
SMART: Absolutely. I -- you know, who can say what the bottom line is on this. And you know, I personally feel like I'm not the judge, but we need the help of everyone out there to be the eyes and ears to help find Lori. Because it's -- you know, it's critical.
At this point in time we don't know what's happened. You know we have to keep focusing back on Lori, just like we had to on Elizabeth. And in the end, you know, the Montoyas and the Dickersons were out there still watching. I mean we had this miracle. And I'm hoping that that is what this family is going to have.
KING: Have you spoken to both families, by the way, Mark's family and...
SMART: Absolutely. I have spoken with both of them. And they are just -- they're wonderful people on both sides. And they've both been incredibly supportive of each other in trying to get through this.
And you know, there's just, under the worst circumstances, they are pulling together, and they are making it happen. And, you know, the prayers of everyone out there, that was kind of a theme that I felt so strongly about, but I really do believe that the prayers of everyone will help in finding Lori.
KING: All right. Do you think there is a chance that she might be OK? Because usually the longer this goes on, although in your case that was disproven totally wrong, there is suspicion.
SMART: Absolutely there's suspicion. And there are, you know, rumors and whatnot, but I think that the big thing is that we can't let that take everyone off track. Until there's evidence to the otherwise, you've got to keep moving forward and trying to find her. Because you know, maybe we could be out there.
KING: Thank you, Ed. Thank you for all you do.
How's Elizabeth doing, by the way?
SMART: You know, she's just wonderful, amazing, moving forward. You know, she hates to hear about situations like this, because it's so close to home. But, you know, she certainly has tremendous empathy for the family, and you know, wants to see her come home. KING: She apparently won't have to testify. Is that true?
SMART: You know, I have no idea at this point in time. That's, you know, wide open. Hopefully in the next month or two we'll see where everything sits.
KING: Thank you very much, Ed, as always. Ed Smart.
SMART: Thanks, Larry.
KING: What a guy for the time he went through.
Nancy Grace, when you piece it all together, at this point, what do you do? You got to keep hoping. But, frankly in cases like this, are hopes dim?
GRACE: Yes, you're right, Larry. After 72 hours it is often assumed, and of course Elizabeth Smart's miracle disproves that, that this is no longer a missing person but, in fact, a homicide.
But the reality is here, what we hear on the news every night so far is that he lied about medical school. Hello, Larry, a lot of people lie about their degrees, that's why they have something called transcripts. So So, I'm not necessarily holding that against this guy.
As Robi Ludwig, Dr. Ludwig said, a lot of people puff themselves up and pretend to be something they're not. That means nothing here. We don't see anything going toward motive.
The strongest evidence placing him under suspicion right now as in the Peterson case is the time line, Larry. Because when you break it down, two times matter: At 10:23 his credit card is swiped buying a mattress, not box springs. At 10:49, that's 26 minutes later, the first dispatch call from the cops is made.
And the problem is, Larry, he says when he realized she was missing, he ran her route. I'm a runner. It was 3 miles each way, that's, at best about an hour. And those times don't fit together.
So who cares if he bought a mattress? Who cares if he lied about med school? That time line is the problem in my behind.
KING: Detective Baird, is that a good point?
BAIRD: It is a good point. You have to kind of piece all this together. And there are lots of pieces of this puzzle. And that's a very good point that we need to look at and have looked at, I'm sure, in putting this together.
But, each piece of the puzzle adds up to a great big picture, perhaps, and that's what we need to focus on. And a big point here is that Lori is still missing and we need to find her.
KING: Tell me, we're going to show it now, that when you picked up the box springs, there appears to be a spot on the corner of one of the box springs. Do you know what we're talking about here? I don't -- apparently someone saw this. I don't see it, but apparently it's on there somewhere. Is that true?
BAIRD: I understand -- I haven't seen the picture either, Larry. I understand there is something, some substance that appears there. I don't know what it is. But we would be looking at that forensically to determine what that is, to have it tested.
KING: I see it in the top right corner, but I can't make out what that is.
BAIRD: OK.
KING: Looks like a light red spot, could be orange.
Dr. Lee, how important is this mattress?
LEE: Extremely important. The box spring apparently on the left-hand corner have some reddish color. Whether or not the reddish color is on the plastic bag or on the box spring itself. If it's on the box spring itself, the laboratory should test that right away on whether or not that's fresh bloodstain. If can determine that's fresh bloodstain through the DNA testing, find that Lori's blood, of course that become a very important piece evidence.
KING: Dr. Ludwig, is it mind-boggling to you to see two such wonderful families talking about two such happy people?
LUDWIG: Well, what's interesting about -- and again I don't want to jump to conclusions here. But with pregnant women who are killed by their husbands, very often there's no single motive. There's no one profile. Very often the families are very surprised. And if someone has a con-artist type of persona, they're very good at saying the right things, doing the right things, especially in public, because that's how they manipulate and get their own way. So, you know, statistically, it doesn't look so great but again, we have to look at each case and understand what's going on.
KING: We'll take a break and come back and go to your phone calls for Ted Rowlands, Detective Dwayne Baird, Nancy Grace, Dr. Henry Lee and Dr. Robi Ludwig. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LANCE HACKING, MARK HACKING'S BROTHER: I think the thing that caught both our families and friends off guard was that Mark at some point, if he felt the need to start some kind of deception like this, and that he just wasn't willing to come to those who loved him, that we could work it out and figure out what was going on. I think that's the part that's really left us heartbroken and worried about Mark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we go to calls, Ted Rowlands, isn't it possible that she was apprehended along the jogging trail? Isn't it possible that maybe, as the kind of people that took Elizabeth Smart, took her?
ROWLANDS: Sure, it's possible. She was in good physical condition. She was more mature than Elizabeth Smart. So the probability is a little bit. But that's what the families are saying. There's all kinds of possibilities. What they want people to do is forget about what Mark's been doing the last two years, concentrate on where Lori is right now. And until this is all ironed out, until the police have a real opportunity to talk to him outside of the hospital setting, which, of course, legally creates a lot of problems, then they can deal with Mark. But right now, the families are asking that everybody just concentrate on Lori Hacking.
KING: Detective Baird, are the police wide open on this?
BAIRD: Are we wide open in what sense, Larry?
KING: In amount of investigations, no leading suspect, anything's possible, that wide open?
BAIRD: Certainly we're looking at all aspects. And we are researching all the leads that come in. We have to do that. And there are things that indicate that we are needing to look, perhaps in some direction or another. But at this point we're confident that there is a problem with the internal aspect of this relationship, and that starts at the pyramid, at the very peak of the pyramid, if you will, with the medical school situation.
KING: Have any other leads come in? Has anybody called in with any other tips?
BAIRD: Oh, yes. We've gotten lots of tips, lots of leads. We have to follow up on each one of them, and we do. But I can't say that there's any substantial aspect to those leads. We follow them, and we lead -- those leads take us in various directions. And we search in areas where we've gotten tips and so on. And we've even gathered items of interest for us. I won't call it evidence at this point necessarily. But we've gathered information, and items for processing, forensic examination and so on.
KING: Let's take some calls. Lansing, Michigan. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. If Lori's husband is eventually put on trial, how valid are the statements that he made to the police while he was in the psych unit?
KING: Nancy? Now, again, that's a stretch. In case something happens.
GRACE: That's way, way, way far down the road. But it's my understanding police talked to him not once but several times before he went in the psych unit. Also, just because you're in a psych unit does not mean you cannot cooperate with police. If his lawyer is there, for instance, if he speaks voluntarily. The simple treatment that you are undergoing mental treatment does not preclude your statement from coming into evidence.
KING: Detective Baird, would you say he's been cooperative? Can you tell us that?
BAIRD: Certainly. I would say that he's been cooperative with us. We've talked to him on a couple of occasions and he has been cooperative in that questioning. And the way that our detectives are able to talk to him. Yes. And as Nancy said, just talking to him in the psychiatric ward doesn't necessarily preclude anything that he says about this case.
KING: And Dr. Lee, are medical examiners on the scene now? Are they looking at that car?
LEE: I don't think medical examiner will be called to look at the car. Forensic scientist, criminalist.
KING: That's right, I'm sorry. People like yourself. They're on the scene already?
LEE: They're going to examine the car, look at the vehicle, any fingerprints, any damage of the vehicle, any sign of foul play.
KING: I didn't mean medical examiner, I meant forensic expert. Anderson, Indiana, hello.
CALLER: What is the significance of the story that came out that Mark was involved in some sort of disturbance at a motel on Tuesday night?
KING: Do you know anything about that, Detective?
BAIRD: I do. It was actually Monday night, we were called to a disturbance here locally. Our officers arrived on the scene, determined that the individual is Mark Hacking, was in need of some medical attention. We called medical personnel to assist him in this case, and then turned it over to those medical people, and because of that, it then -- the information in this case was protected by the Hippo laws which don't allow me to discuss any further details about that call.
KING: Studio City, California, hello.
CALLER: Yes. My question is going to Dr. Ludwig. About the psychology of the wife. Living with him 24 hours a day, how -- what would allow her not to realize that he wasn't going to school? That he hadn't graduated? That he hadn't applied or been accepted to medical school? And could her suddenly realizing this cause a crisis?
KING: Or is it possible, also, Robi, she knew he was lying and went along with him?
LUDWIG: That's true for a period of time. You know, she could be in denial. Wishful thinking. There was no reason to believe that he wasn't doing what he said he was doing. And you are absolutely right on the money. If she was happily married to a man she thought graduated from college and was going to medical school, and then found out everything she thought she loved about this man was based on a lie, that could cause a crisis. That could trigger violence, and even murder.
So, yes, there's certainly some interesting information going on in this marriage.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more.
By the way, we're going to have major convention coverage. Sunday night a live edition of LARRY KING LIVE from the Fleet Center in Boston. And then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday when the convention is open, we'll do two live shows nightly, at 9:00 and midnight Eastern time.
So Sunday night, a live show at 9:00. Two nights, two times, each night, Monday through Thursday. And our regular guests will be Senators George Mitchell and Bob Dole and pulitzer prize winner Bob Woodward. I'll be back with our remaining moments. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Nancy Grace I understand you have something you wanted to add?
GRACE: I do, the Detective Wisely did not comment on the evidence regarding the lady caller's question. Mark Hacking was found on Monday evening, late in the evening, or early Tuesday morning outside a local motel, about a half a mile from his and Lori's apartment, buck naked, save for a pair of sandals. That's when he was taken to the psych ward, Larry. So that's the story behind that.
KING: OK. And is it possible, Detective Baird, that because of the Elizabeth Smart case, you deal with these matters a little differently?
BAIRD: Certainly, that's a fair question to ask. We are much more prepared now than we were two years ago, in the sense of the logistics of this case, and the logistics of deploying police personnel and detectives in areas that we need to in order to do a thorough and complete investigation in these types of cases.
KING: Santa Rosa, California. Hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: It was been reported that the couple would be moving next week?
KING: Right.
CALLER: And I'm wondering if there's any information as if to -- if they had already secured housing and set up the utilities and things like that.
KING: Ted Rowlands, I believe they had, had they not? They'd been in North Carolina, right? ROWLANDS: Yes. According to family members they've made trips to North Carolina and they had secured an apartment to move into so that he could start medical school. I mean this was a really deep- seated lie that was going on for an extended period of time.
And I know a caller asked how could the wife not know? According to family members, they had much different schedules. He was working late each night and was going to school presumably at night. So their daily interaction, where you would have to get on a backpack and go to school was limited. So it's conceivable that she just wouldn't know and would take his word for it through this time period.
Plus he has a brother that's gone through the process, who has a degree in medicine. He knew what to expect, which would probably make it more believable.
KING: Dr. Ludwig the mother was so wonderful and so eloquent and obviously loves her son-in-law, who did an awful lot for her.
LUDWIG: But so did laci peterson's mother. She loved her son- in-law, too. So, you know, sometimes these men are very ingratiating and very charming and very lovable, and nobody is all bad or all good. Very often people are a combination of both. And the fact of the matter is, anybody can become violent under the right circumstances.
KING: You're not prejudging here, though?
LUDWIG: I'm not prejudging because it's premature to prejudge. Just statistically at this point it's suspicious. And we're all in agreement about that.
KING: What do you make of the naked thing?
LUGWIG: You know, it's very interesting. With somebody who knows so much about psychology, they can fake their way into a psych ward so easily. You know, it's very easy to act crazy, or to say you're suicidal and get yourself admitted. So that's also something that somebody can fake, if you will.
KING: Let's hope everything turns out well. Ted Rowlands, Detective Dwayne Baird, Nancy Grace, Dr., Henry Lee and Dr. Robi Ludwig, thank you so much.
We'll take a break and I'll come back and tell you about the weekend and the week ahead. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We received so much comment on the Martha Stewart interview, we'll repeat it tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.
Sunday night, live in Boston, the preview of the convention. We'll do one show Sunday night and then two shows nightly, Monday through Thursday at 9:00 and midnight. And this year we are situated right on the floor.
And I get to see my old friend Bill Hemmer.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 23, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THELMA SOARES, MOTHER OF LORI HACKING: My baby is still out there somewhere, and we need to find here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST: More strange revelation in the latest missing mother-to-be mystery in Salt Lake City, Utah. 27-year-old Lori Hacking, five weeks pregnant, vanished Monday morning after she allegedly went out to jog. On Wednesday, shocking news, her husband Mark had apparently lied to her about graduating college and being accepted to medical school in North Carolina where he and Lori were planning to move. And now police say that after Mark called friends to report Lori missing, and before calling the police, he bought' mattress, without a box spring.
With us for the hour, the missing woman Lori Hacking's mother Thelma Soares.
CNN's Ted Rowlands on the scene now in Salt Lake.
Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City Police.
Later Court TV's Nancy Grace, the former prosecutor, renowned forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee, Psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.
And later back in Salt Lake City, Ed Smart, whose daughter Elizabeth survived a nine-month abduction ordeal last year and he has met with Lori Hacking's family. And they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
We begin with Selma Suwari (ph), Themla Soares, am I pronouncing that right, Thelma?
SOARES: That's correct.
KING: Thelma is in Salt Lake City and she's the mother of the missing woman Lori Hacking.
When did you learn that your daughter was missing, Thelma?
SOARES: Monday morning.
KING: How did you learn?
SOARES: Mark called me -- I was at work and I got a phone call from Mark, who informed me that Lori had gone jogging and had never come home.
KING: That had ever happened before?
Had Lori ever wandered off anywhere or gone away for a few days by herself?
SOARES: Never. This is not characteristic of Lori whatsoever. Somebody always knew where she was.
KING: And she had just discovered she was pregnant, right, what, five weeks?
SOARES: Yes, she hadn't even told me yet. Because they had just figured it out a few days prior and Mark told me she was supposed to come to my house for dinner. They were -- both of them actually supposed to come for my house for dinner Sunday and Mark said we were trying to figure up some creative way to break the news to you. But he did tell me Monday that they had just found out that she was five weeks along.
KING: Will this be your first grandchild?
SOARES: No. My son's wife is also pregnant, and due November 1st. So, it would have been a close second.
KING: Do you have other children?
You have a boy and a girl, or any others?
SOARES: No, I only have the two. Lori is my only daughter.
KING: And is she the younger?
SOARES: Yes. She's the younger by 8 years. Actually both of my children are adopted. Paul, my son, is 8 years older than Lori, and she was my baby.
KING: And is your husband with you, as well?
SOARES: No. Lori's father and I have been divorced for 16 years. But, he is here. He came immediately when he found out. He flew -- he still lives in Southern California. And he flew up here immediately and has been here ever since.
KING: Lori and Mark, we understand, know each other a long time, is that right?
SOARES: That's right. This was no fly by night romance. Lori and Mark met the summer before she was a junior and he was a senior in high school. They met at Lake Powell on an outing with a mutual friend.
KING: Did they both grow up in Utah?
SOARES: Well, Lori was born in California, and we lived there until she was 12-years-old. At the time her father and I were divorced Lori and I moved back here. She finished three weeks of fifth grade, then went to sixth grade and has, you know, we have been here since.
KING: All right, now what do you think of Mark, who is listed now, not a suspect, he's listed as someone in the -- he's in the realm of things. Person of interest, they call him. Whatever that means.
SOARES: I think that's what law enforcement calls it. I love Mark with all my heart. He has been a wonderful son-in-law. He is a very handy person. He, no matter when -- in fact I used to laugh because I'd say you guys will never come down here anymore because I have so many things for you to do. I kind of have a to do list for Mark every time he visits. He fixes my cars. He installed my sprinkler system. He fixed my swamp cooler. You know, he just does so many things, and he's almost like a son. When they were dating in high school I used to have to say to him, Mark, it's 10:00, you've got to go home. You kids have got to be in school in the morning. Then I'd say, Mark, it's 10:15, you've got to go home.
KING: Can you say, Thelma, that you cannot fathom him being involved in any way in harming your daughter?
SOARES: Yes. When the police gave us that report the other day I was totally speechless. It felt like the ground opened up and I was going to fall forever. I had no idea, as did his own family. That was -- I still have a hard time believing it's true, although it has been confirmed. And I tried to process this, you know, since we got that news. It's very difficult.
KING: The news that he did not graduate college and was not going to medical school, right?
SOARES: That's correct. That's the news.
KING: Well, how would his wife not know he didn't graduate college?
how would your daughter, who knows him since childhood, not know he didn't graduate college?
You know, many is the time that I went to their apartment. I saw books open. I saw chemistry books open. We talked about his gross anatomy class. Lori every day got up very early. She had to start work at 7:00. And so she would leave home in time to get to work at 7:00. She worked until, let's see I believe she said it was 4:00. She usually got home at 4:30. In the meantime, Mark's job began at 3:00 in the afternoon, and he worked until midnight. So during the week, you know, they didn't -- their paths didn't cross except after Mark got home at night, because she left so early.
KING: What school did he attend?
SOARES: The University of Utah.
KING: OK, now did he attend the University of Utah? SOARES: Oh, yes, he did. And they have records of him taking classes there. In 2002. It was just this last year, 2003 that they have no record.
KING: What do you make of it?
They went to North Carolina, they picked an apartment out. He said he was going to medical school, where, at the University of North Carolina?
SOARES: At Chapel Hill.
KING: Yes. He sent out invitations to his graduation. What do you make of it?
SOARES: I -- I have more questions than you do, Larry. And I have no answers. We're trying, you know, little by little we're trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together. And I hope at some time in the future we'll be able to understand this. We all lived this with him. His own mother and father have lived it with him. It's just totally incredible. It's still hard for me to believe that I'm even saying that it's true.
KING: Would you say, to your knowledge, they were a happy couple?
SOARES: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Mark was a very romantic young man, and very tender-hearted, and calm, and, for example, if I may tell you just one small incident.
KING: Sure.
SOARES: When Lori was going to school and one time she called me, it was close -- actually she called me after finals and she said, Mom, I want to tell you what happened. She had been stressed, as we all are when finals come at the university. And she said I was so stressed about this one final, and Mark knew how, you know, worried I was about getting through this final, and I got home late at night, and -- I guess it wasn't too late. But it was after dark. She said I opened my apartment door, and sitting there was a table with a long white tablecloth, and a glowing candle, and two place settings, and a long-stemmed red rose on one of the plates. And there was Mark in my tiny little kitchen making dinner for me. And he had arranged with her roommates to come and do this, and he just did wonderful little tender-hearted things like that for her all the time.
KING: Let's pray. We'll take a break and come back.
SOARES: He adored her.
KING: Let's pray that she's OK and that he's not involved, and all this is some kind of just weird circumstance. In a moment, Thelma will remain with us. We'll bring in Ted Rowlands and Detective Baird. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DOUGLAS HACKING, MARK HACKING'S FATHER: I confronted my son yesterday morning. I looked him in the eye and I said, "I need you to tell me if you had anything to do with Lori's disappearance." And I know you're getting anxious, but I have to tell you that he looked me in the eye and he said, "no."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Remaining with us in Salt Lake City is Thelma Soares, whose daughter Lori Hacking has been missing since going jogging -- reportedly going jogging Monday morning.
Joining us also in Salt Lake City is Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent. Usually on the scene in Modesto but hopping down for this continuing big saga of missing pregnant people.
And in Salt Lake City is Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City police.
What do we mean by person of interest, Detective Baird?
DETECTIVE DWAYNE BAIRD, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE: Well, a person of interest, Larry, is different than a suspect. A suspect is someone that, once we have enough evidence, we believe that we can charge them, we can name them as a suspect. A person of interest, however, is someone that we need to look at, where evidence may be pointing that direction. But, we put a closer focus, perhaps, on their activities and behavior related to a certain case.
KING: Now, as we understand the -- he, the husband has been hospitalized as of early Tuesday for emotional distress. Can you tell us what that is?
BAIRD: I can't. I can only discuss the fact that we know he's hospitalized and we know that according to family members, that he is under some stress. I don't know exactly what his condition is or what his treatment is.
KING: You have not questioned him?
BAIRD: We have questioned him. We've questioned him a couple of times. The latest that I'm aware of is day before yesterday, our detectives were talking to him and we go to the hospital to do that.
KING: I see. Do you know anything, Ted Rowlands, about his condition?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No. Other than what family members have said publicly and that is that he is in need of medical treatment, and they're giving it to him. And they have no timetable on it. Talked to his brother just recently, in the last hour, and he said, you know, he needs some help right now, psychologically, and we're going to continue to look for Lori. He's going to continue to get the help. And the family is doing a great job, both families, of really segmenting this out. You know, Mark has these issues and of course these lies floor them. But they're really focusing on Lori right now and they've done a great job along with the smarts of galvanizing this community to continue the search even with all of these side issues going on with her husband.
KING: Thelma, have you been to see your son-in-law? Have you been to see Mark?
SOARES: As a matter of fact, I did see him this afternoon briefly.
KING: And, how is he doing? And what did you talk about?
SOARES: Well, the conversation that was profoundly private. But I will share with you that he was standing up when I went in, and he put his arms out to me, and we embraced each other. And I just told him that, I said, "Mark, didn't you know that my love for you was not conditional upon your becoming a doctor? That I loved you because you're Mark, and because of how you have treated Lori?"
And he cried a little bit. And, you know, I couldn't see him. I was in his arms and he was in my arms. And I'm not going to disclose the rest of the conversation. That's very private at this point. But he seemed -- he is under excellent medical care. And hopefully, as time goes by, we will be able to put all of the pieces together.
KING: Detective Baird, what do you make of the mattress angle?
BAIRD: Well, that's something that I'm not at liberty to discuss in detail. However, we are looking at all angles of any evidence that we would need in this case, and that may be just part of that puzzle.
KING: Have you an explanation for it, Thelma? A mattress without a spring?
SOARES: I have no explanation except that I know their mattress is old. You know, was at least five years old. They got it when they were married. Mark's a big guy. He looks like a football player. They had a cat that, you know, scratches, and that's all I can tell you about the mattress.
KING: Ted Rowlands, were her belongings at home? Purse and everything else? If she went out jogging, she didn't take anything with her, did she?
ROWLANDS: Nothing out of the ordinary, no. It's a typical situation where someone's jogging. Her car was found where she typically goes jogging. And according to one of her friends, she does jog in the mornings in that park. She jogged at all times of the day. But one of her friends from work told me today that yes, she's been jogging a lot lately, especially in the mornings. These two were training for a 10k which is to be run here in Salt Lake City over the weekend. And now they're using that 10k to get out the search effort. They galvanized that, as well. So, you know, it seems ordinary. Everything seems to be in place except for what has come out in the last few days concerning her husband, and that, of course, has a lot of people scratching their heads.
KING: Detective Baird, any signs around the car of foul play?
BAIRD: Not that I'm able to talk about. We're examining both cars. We've taken into our possession her car and his car. And that would be because we need to look at them to determine, perhaps, if there is anything there for us to examine that may come into play in this case. But as far as details of those examinations, I'm not at liberty to discuss those.
KING: I understand. Detective, from an investigative standpoint, lying about medical school doesn't mean -- does that increase someone being suspicious of a crime?
BAIRD: Not necessarily. Larry, that's a good point. Just lying about medical school doesn't necessarily mean that they've, you know, committed any crime in any sense. However, in a sense of the aspect of this case, it may be a piece of the puzzle that we need to look at based on what we know about the family relationship, and the situation that we're involved in with the missing person.
KING: Thelma, does the search continue?
SOARES: The search continues. And, Larry, can you see this little yarn lei as it were that's hanging around my neck?
KING: Sure can.
SOARES: This afternoon one of the helpers just about an hour and a half ago brought this in to me. She is here waiting because she's too young to join in the search. Her mother and her older sister are out right now searching, and this little girl -- excuse me. This little girl brought this and wanted someone to give it to me so that I would know of her love and for their prayers, that they will find Lori. And I have been overwhelmed with the support of the community. The search continues. We need all the help we can get, because Lori is out there somewhere. And we need to find her.
KING: And if you have any information on this case, by the way, you call the Salt Lake City Police, 801-799-3000. 801-799-3000. A Web site has been set up. One word findlori.com.
Thelma, thank you. You're in our prayers. We hope that she returns safe and sound and all this goes away.
SOARES: Thank you very much, Larry.
KING: Thank you, Thelma. Ted Rowlands and Detective Baird remain with us. Nancy Grace, Dr. Henry Lee and Dr. Robi Ludwig join us right after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEARLD SOARES, FATHER OF LORI HACKING: I don't think he could do it because he loved Lori too much. And I -- when I came to visit him once a month, they always were holding hands together. They're sneaking a kiss here and there. And he was a gentleman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back.
Staying with us in Salt Lake City is CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands.
Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City Police.
Joining us from Atlanta is Nancy Grace of Court TV anchor and former prosecutor.
In New York is Dr. Henry Lee, one of the world's foremost forensic experts, former commissioner for Connecticut's Department of Public Safety, host of a new Court TV series called "Trace."
And in New York is Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist.
Before talk with the panel, tomorrow night on "America's Most Wanted" they're going to look into this matter. Here's something of what they report, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The subject of the search is a 27-year-old pregnant woman, Lori K. Hacking. Lori went out for a jog in this park, and disappeared. Lori and her husband Mark have been married for 5 years. The couple was getting ready to move to North Carolina, where Mark said he'd been accepted to medical school. Police questioned Mark as is routine in cases like this. But they said he wasn't a suspect in his wife's disappearance. Then, late this week, the mystery became even more complicated with a stunning new turn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just found out a few minutes ago that he never even applied to medical school at North Carolina.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a person of interest that we're looking at based on the fact that his wife is missing and that there are some discrepancies in what's going on in his life and in the life of his wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Nancy Grace, at this point, when there is no crime yet, does a prosecutor get involved?
NANCY GRACE, COURT TV, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I think that they -- the police know a lot more than what we are hearing tonight, as a matter of fact, we know that Lori's car was last seen -- found parked at Memory Grove Park where she normally parked it to go jogging. We also know that articles of clothing have already been found in a canyon and have been seized. We know that a police source has stated that the most important evidence is probably going to be evidence coming from a city dumpster seized near a church. Larry, please seized not only her car, but his car.
So, right now...
KING: The question was, what is a prosecutor doing at this minute?
GRACE: Right now I imagine that they are getting search warrants prepared for the home. I'm sure that one has already been executed. A search warrant was probably executed for both of the cars. But you know, Larry, right now, this is so different from other cases you and I have talked about, because this family, the marriage seems very happy.
KING: Yes.
GRACE: It's just a very odd coincidences. And now that he has checked himself into a psychiatric unit, we also know that when he was in college, Larry, he studied psychology. And I'm sure prosecutors, if they are looking at him, which I'm not ready to say at this point, they're probably taking into account his knowledge of psychology and whether he is trying to build some type of a mental defect defense.
KING: Is this much too early Dr. Lee, in this case?
Much too early to conjecture?
DR. HENRY LEE, PROFESSOR OF FORENSIC SCIENCE: A bit too early. The key here are the mattress. And the mattress disappear could be two possible explanations. One is an innocent type explanation, they want to move, doesn't want to bring the old mattress with them. The second, of course, the mattress may have some evidence, so he got rid of the mattress. If it's the first scenario we should look at the garbage dump. Apparently police already found something. Should look at the garbage, the newspaper, letters, we can sort of dating how long the mattress been in that garbage dump. And how -- why the focus on the garbage dump maybe Mark tell them where he deposit the mattress. If the other way around they'll have to look for blood, for body fluids and other evidence. Don't forget bedding and pillowcase and blanket, those type of things should be looking for, too.
KING: Dr. Ludwig, this is off the top now, again, with scanty information.
Is there anything you can generally tell us about people who lie about college?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, who lie in general. People who lie, especially in a compulsive kind of way, do it as a mood regulator. And often what we found with men who lie, they do it to make themselves seem more macho and attractive, and more desirable. But what's not clear is if this is pathological lying to an extreme, so that it indicates actually a character flaw, anti-social personality or sociopathy which is found in many criminals. So that the lying is done to, you know, influence other people to get over, for sex, money and power.
KING: But what about taking an apartment in a school you're not going to, moving across the country?
LUDWIG: Right. It's not clear, too, if he lied so much to himself that he actually believed it. And that there was some idea, you know, if I say it long enough, it will be true. Or that somehow he would make it happen. Kind of falsifying his life to some degree. What's so interesting here is that nobody in his life knew the truth. And what would happen if he was in danger of being found out?
KING: Hmm. Of course (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doesn't make him a suspect in a crime, because he lied about a matter like college.
Detective Baird, what part in your consideration of him does that lie play?
BAIRD: Well, it's an enormous part, simply because it is part of this scheme of things in his life that was a very important part for he and his family. So much so that he had perpetuated this lie, or the idea of it, anyway, for some time. Especially dealing with having to have an undergraduate degree to even apply for medical school. And then intimating that he not only had applied at medical school but had been excepted. That in itself, was a big part of an elaborate plan if you will, and we need to look at that in the entire aspect of things.
KING: I've got to get a break. Ted Rowlands, this is just off the top, how big is this going to get, this story, do you think?
ROWLANDS: Well, you know, it's hard to say. It's got a lot of interest, because of the fact that this woman is missing, and there is now speculation that the husband may be involved. But, you know, who knows what the short-term resolution, if there is any, will be.
At this point, though, folks here in Salt Lake City are 100 percent behind this effort. And the credit goes to the families, both families, during a very difficult time. They're out there every day urging people to help search for Lori. And that's the case right now.
So for right now it's a big story regionally here. Who knows about any other interest.
KING: When we -- we're going to take a break. When we come back, we'll talk to Ed Smart, who lived through this, you will remember. And then back to our panel and your phone calls. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we get back to the panel, joining us from Salt Lake is Ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted from her bedroom June of 2002 and recovered in March of 2003. He has been active in the search for Lori Hacking and has met with the family. What do you make of this, Ed?
ED SMART, FATHER OF ELIZABETH SMART: You know, it's -- it comes very close. It's a very close reminder of a couple of years ago. And, the thing is, I think the families, I've been overwhelmed with their strength and their ability to go forward under the current circumstances.
You know, when our family came under scrutiny, the volunteers fell off quite a bit. But it was such a horrendous stress on the family. Nobody can even imagine what they're going through, and I just have been amazed at how well the family is doing to move forward.
KING: Are you able, yourself, since there was a lot of blame going around about your family and you, to withhold any judgment about the husband?
SMART: Absolutely. I -- you know, who can say what the bottom line is on this. And you know, I personally feel like I'm not the judge, but we need the help of everyone out there to be the eyes and ears to help find Lori. Because it's -- you know, it's critical.
At this point in time we don't know what's happened. You know we have to keep focusing back on Lori, just like we had to on Elizabeth. And in the end, you know, the Montoyas and the Dickersons were out there still watching. I mean we had this miracle. And I'm hoping that that is what this family is going to have.
KING: Have you spoken to both families, by the way, Mark's family and...
SMART: Absolutely. I have spoken with both of them. And they are just -- they're wonderful people on both sides. And they've both been incredibly supportive of each other in trying to get through this.
And you know, there's just, under the worst circumstances, they are pulling together, and they are making it happen. And, you know, the prayers of everyone out there, that was kind of a theme that I felt so strongly about, but I really do believe that the prayers of everyone will help in finding Lori.
KING: All right. Do you think there is a chance that she might be OK? Because usually the longer this goes on, although in your case that was disproven totally wrong, there is suspicion.
SMART: Absolutely there's suspicion. And there are, you know, rumors and whatnot, but I think that the big thing is that we can't let that take everyone off track. Until there's evidence to the otherwise, you've got to keep moving forward and trying to find her. Because you know, maybe we could be out there.
KING: Thank you, Ed. Thank you for all you do.
How's Elizabeth doing, by the way?
SMART: You know, she's just wonderful, amazing, moving forward. You know, she hates to hear about situations like this, because it's so close to home. But, you know, she certainly has tremendous empathy for the family, and you know, wants to see her come home. KING: She apparently won't have to testify. Is that true?
SMART: You know, I have no idea at this point in time. That's, you know, wide open. Hopefully in the next month or two we'll see where everything sits.
KING: Thank you very much, Ed, as always. Ed Smart.
SMART: Thanks, Larry.
KING: What a guy for the time he went through.
Nancy Grace, when you piece it all together, at this point, what do you do? You got to keep hoping. But, frankly in cases like this, are hopes dim?
GRACE: Yes, you're right, Larry. After 72 hours it is often assumed, and of course Elizabeth Smart's miracle disproves that, that this is no longer a missing person but, in fact, a homicide.
But the reality is here, what we hear on the news every night so far is that he lied about medical school. Hello, Larry, a lot of people lie about their degrees, that's why they have something called transcripts. So So, I'm not necessarily holding that against this guy.
As Robi Ludwig, Dr. Ludwig said, a lot of people puff themselves up and pretend to be something they're not. That means nothing here. We don't see anything going toward motive.
The strongest evidence placing him under suspicion right now as in the Peterson case is the time line, Larry. Because when you break it down, two times matter: At 10:23 his credit card is swiped buying a mattress, not box springs. At 10:49, that's 26 minutes later, the first dispatch call from the cops is made.
And the problem is, Larry, he says when he realized she was missing, he ran her route. I'm a runner. It was 3 miles each way, that's, at best about an hour. And those times don't fit together.
So who cares if he bought a mattress? Who cares if he lied about med school? That time line is the problem in my behind.
KING: Detective Baird, is that a good point?
BAIRD: It is a good point. You have to kind of piece all this together. And there are lots of pieces of this puzzle. And that's a very good point that we need to look at and have looked at, I'm sure, in putting this together.
But, each piece of the puzzle adds up to a great big picture, perhaps, and that's what we need to focus on. And a big point here is that Lori is still missing and we need to find her.
KING: Tell me, we're going to show it now, that when you picked up the box springs, there appears to be a spot on the corner of one of the box springs. Do you know what we're talking about here? I don't -- apparently someone saw this. I don't see it, but apparently it's on there somewhere. Is that true?
BAIRD: I understand -- I haven't seen the picture either, Larry. I understand there is something, some substance that appears there. I don't know what it is. But we would be looking at that forensically to determine what that is, to have it tested.
KING: I see it in the top right corner, but I can't make out what that is.
BAIRD: OK.
KING: Looks like a light red spot, could be orange.
Dr. Lee, how important is this mattress?
LEE: Extremely important. The box spring apparently on the left-hand corner have some reddish color. Whether or not the reddish color is on the plastic bag or on the box spring itself. If it's on the box spring itself, the laboratory should test that right away on whether or not that's fresh bloodstain. If can determine that's fresh bloodstain through the DNA testing, find that Lori's blood, of course that become a very important piece evidence.
KING: Dr. Ludwig, is it mind-boggling to you to see two such wonderful families talking about two such happy people?
LUDWIG: Well, what's interesting about -- and again I don't want to jump to conclusions here. But with pregnant women who are killed by their husbands, very often there's no single motive. There's no one profile. Very often the families are very surprised. And if someone has a con-artist type of persona, they're very good at saying the right things, doing the right things, especially in public, because that's how they manipulate and get their own way. So, you know, statistically, it doesn't look so great but again, we have to look at each case and understand what's going on.
KING: We'll take a break and come back and go to your phone calls for Ted Rowlands, Detective Dwayne Baird, Nancy Grace, Dr. Henry Lee and Dr. Robi Ludwig. Don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LANCE HACKING, MARK HACKING'S BROTHER: I think the thing that caught both our families and friends off guard was that Mark at some point, if he felt the need to start some kind of deception like this, and that he just wasn't willing to come to those who loved him, that we could work it out and figure out what was going on. I think that's the part that's really left us heartbroken and worried about Mark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we go to calls, Ted Rowlands, isn't it possible that she was apprehended along the jogging trail? Isn't it possible that maybe, as the kind of people that took Elizabeth Smart, took her?
ROWLANDS: Sure, it's possible. She was in good physical condition. She was more mature than Elizabeth Smart. So the probability is a little bit. But that's what the families are saying. There's all kinds of possibilities. What they want people to do is forget about what Mark's been doing the last two years, concentrate on where Lori is right now. And until this is all ironed out, until the police have a real opportunity to talk to him outside of the hospital setting, which, of course, legally creates a lot of problems, then they can deal with Mark. But right now, the families are asking that everybody just concentrate on Lori Hacking.
KING: Detective Baird, are the police wide open on this?
BAIRD: Are we wide open in what sense, Larry?
KING: In amount of investigations, no leading suspect, anything's possible, that wide open?
BAIRD: Certainly we're looking at all aspects. And we are researching all the leads that come in. We have to do that. And there are things that indicate that we are needing to look, perhaps in some direction or another. But at this point we're confident that there is a problem with the internal aspect of this relationship, and that starts at the pyramid, at the very peak of the pyramid, if you will, with the medical school situation.
KING: Have any other leads come in? Has anybody called in with any other tips?
BAIRD: Oh, yes. We've gotten lots of tips, lots of leads. We have to follow up on each one of them, and we do. But I can't say that there's any substantial aspect to those leads. We follow them, and we lead -- those leads take us in various directions. And we search in areas where we've gotten tips and so on. And we've even gathered items of interest for us. I won't call it evidence at this point necessarily. But we've gathered information, and items for processing, forensic examination and so on.
KING: Let's take some calls. Lansing, Michigan. Hello.
CALLER: Hi. If Lori's husband is eventually put on trial, how valid are the statements that he made to the police while he was in the psych unit?
KING: Nancy? Now, again, that's a stretch. In case something happens.
GRACE: That's way, way, way far down the road. But it's my understanding police talked to him not once but several times before he went in the psych unit. Also, just because you're in a psych unit does not mean you cannot cooperate with police. If his lawyer is there, for instance, if he speaks voluntarily. The simple treatment that you are undergoing mental treatment does not preclude your statement from coming into evidence.
KING: Detective Baird, would you say he's been cooperative? Can you tell us that?
BAIRD: Certainly. I would say that he's been cooperative with us. We've talked to him on a couple of occasions and he has been cooperative in that questioning. And the way that our detectives are able to talk to him. Yes. And as Nancy said, just talking to him in the psychiatric ward doesn't necessarily preclude anything that he says about this case.
KING: And Dr. Lee, are medical examiners on the scene now? Are they looking at that car?
LEE: I don't think medical examiner will be called to look at the car. Forensic scientist, criminalist.
KING: That's right, I'm sorry. People like yourself. They're on the scene already?
LEE: They're going to examine the car, look at the vehicle, any fingerprints, any damage of the vehicle, any sign of foul play.
KING: I didn't mean medical examiner, I meant forensic expert. Anderson, Indiana, hello.
CALLER: What is the significance of the story that came out that Mark was involved in some sort of disturbance at a motel on Tuesday night?
KING: Do you know anything about that, Detective?
BAIRD: I do. It was actually Monday night, we were called to a disturbance here locally. Our officers arrived on the scene, determined that the individual is Mark Hacking, was in need of some medical attention. We called medical personnel to assist him in this case, and then turned it over to those medical people, and because of that, it then -- the information in this case was protected by the Hippo laws which don't allow me to discuss any further details about that call.
KING: Studio City, California, hello.
CALLER: Yes. My question is going to Dr. Ludwig. About the psychology of the wife. Living with him 24 hours a day, how -- what would allow her not to realize that he wasn't going to school? That he hadn't graduated? That he hadn't applied or been accepted to medical school? And could her suddenly realizing this cause a crisis?
KING: Or is it possible, also, Robi, she knew he was lying and went along with him?
LUDWIG: That's true for a period of time. You know, she could be in denial. Wishful thinking. There was no reason to believe that he wasn't doing what he said he was doing. And you are absolutely right on the money. If she was happily married to a man she thought graduated from college and was going to medical school, and then found out everything she thought she loved about this man was based on a lie, that could cause a crisis. That could trigger violence, and even murder.
So, yes, there's certainly some interesting information going on in this marriage.
KING: We'll take a break and be back with more.
By the way, we're going to have major convention coverage. Sunday night a live edition of LARRY KING LIVE from the Fleet Center in Boston. And then Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday when the convention is open, we'll do two live shows nightly, at 9:00 and midnight Eastern time.
So Sunday night, a live show at 9:00. Two nights, two times, each night, Monday through Thursday. And our regular guests will be Senators George Mitchell and Bob Dole and pulitzer prize winner Bob Woodward. I'll be back with our remaining moments. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Nancy Grace I understand you have something you wanted to add?
GRACE: I do, the Detective Wisely did not comment on the evidence regarding the lady caller's question. Mark Hacking was found on Monday evening, late in the evening, or early Tuesday morning outside a local motel, about a half a mile from his and Lori's apartment, buck naked, save for a pair of sandals. That's when he was taken to the psych ward, Larry. So that's the story behind that.
KING: OK. And is it possible, Detective Baird, that because of the Elizabeth Smart case, you deal with these matters a little differently?
BAIRD: Certainly, that's a fair question to ask. We are much more prepared now than we were two years ago, in the sense of the logistics of this case, and the logistics of deploying police personnel and detectives in areas that we need to in order to do a thorough and complete investigation in these types of cases.
KING: Santa Rosa, California. Hello.
CALLER: Good evening, Larry.
KING: Hi.
CALLER: It was been reported that the couple would be moving next week?
KING: Right.
CALLER: And I'm wondering if there's any information as if to -- if they had already secured housing and set up the utilities and things like that.
KING: Ted Rowlands, I believe they had, had they not? They'd been in North Carolina, right? ROWLANDS: Yes. According to family members they've made trips to North Carolina and they had secured an apartment to move into so that he could start medical school. I mean this was a really deep- seated lie that was going on for an extended period of time.
And I know a caller asked how could the wife not know? According to family members, they had much different schedules. He was working late each night and was going to school presumably at night. So their daily interaction, where you would have to get on a backpack and go to school was limited. So it's conceivable that she just wouldn't know and would take his word for it through this time period.
Plus he has a brother that's gone through the process, who has a degree in medicine. He knew what to expect, which would probably make it more believable.
KING: Dr. Ludwig the mother was so wonderful and so eloquent and obviously loves her son-in-law, who did an awful lot for her.
LUDWIG: But so did laci peterson's mother. She loved her son- in-law, too. So, you know, sometimes these men are very ingratiating and very charming and very lovable, and nobody is all bad or all good. Very often people are a combination of both. And the fact of the matter is, anybody can become violent under the right circumstances.
KING: You're not prejudging here, though?
LUDWIG: I'm not prejudging because it's premature to prejudge. Just statistically at this point it's suspicious. And we're all in agreement about that.
KING: What do you make of the naked thing?
LUGWIG: You know, it's very interesting. With somebody who knows so much about psychology, they can fake their way into a psych ward so easily. You know, it's very easy to act crazy, or to say you're suicidal and get yourself admitted. So that's also something that somebody can fake, if you will.
KING: Let's hope everything turns out well. Ted Rowlands, Detective Dwayne Baird, Nancy Grace, Dr., Henry Lee and Dr. Robi Ludwig, thank you so much.
We'll take a break and I'll come back and tell you about the weekend and the week ahead. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We received so much comment on the Martha Stewart interview, we'll repeat it tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.
Sunday night, live in Boston, the preview of the convention. We'll do one show Sunday night and then two shows nightly, Monday through Thursday at 9:00 and midnight. And this year we are situated right on the floor.
And I get to see my old friend Bill Hemmer.
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