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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Coverage of Democratic National Convention

Aired July 27, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, Senator John Kerry moves homeland security and the issue of who is best qualified to prevent another terrorist attack to the center of his campaign. Senator Kerry wants the September 11 Commission report implemented immediately.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You can't treat the commission's report as something that you hope will go away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Tonight we report on the competing Democratic and Republican visions for homeland security.

And Senator Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, tonight delivers a prime-time speech at the Democratic Convention. We'll have a special report on Teresa Heinz Kerry and just what kind of first lady she would make.

I'll also be talking with former White House adviser Congressman Rahm Emanuel.

In "Middle Class Squeeze" tonight, Senator Kerry promises sweeping reforms in our educational system, but Senator Kerry's proposals are short on details.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's being purposely vague so that he doesn't have to commit any particular amount of money to preschool.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: And American shrimpers are fighting a losing battle against cheap overseas imports of farm-raised shrimp. Will the Bush administration do anything to protect the American shrimp industry? We'll have a special report.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, July 27th. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight Senator Kerry is calling on President Bush to implement the recommendations of the September 11 Commission immediately. Vice President Dick Cheney today said terrorist attacks, however, are not caused by the use of strength. Cheney said they are invited by the perception of weakness.

Ed Henry reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On his way to Boston, John Kerry is hammering President Bush over the 9/11 commission's final report.

KERRY: You can't treat the commission's report as something that you hope will go away, because this threat won't go away and the recommendations of the commission make sense and they should be implemented now.

(APPLAUSE)

HENRY: Republicans stress the president is on top of the situation, discussing the 9/11 report with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice in Texas. And in a visit with Marines at Camp Pendleton, Vice President Cheney said the administration's approach to the war on terror is the right one.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength. They are invited by the perception of weakness.

HENRY: The Kerry camp released a memo charging -- quote -- "In an act of political gymnastics remarkable even for this White House, the Bush campaign is using the report it has yet to embrace written by a commission that it originally opposed to justify its reelection effort."

And Kerry wants the commission, whose mandate expires in August, to get an 18-month extension to oversee, monitor and track implementation of the reform proposals, a move the White House refused to endorse. The jockeying over who will embrace the commission's proposals first has gotten intense.

DR. PAUL LIGHT, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think there's just tremendous political pressure for both parties to get ahead on the issue. National security is a big campaign issue for John Kerry, and it's a big strength for George Bush. And the party that gets there first is going to be the party that gets some votes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Lou, Congress is also now moving quickly to address the 9/11 report. As CNN first reported today the Senate, which planned to kick off its hearings next week, will now hold its first hearing this Friday, right at the end of the Democratic Convention. And House Speaker Dennis Hastert had initially urged a go-slow approach but amid a lot of pressure, House Republicans are now planning a hearing of their own next week and now two lawmakers are drafting legislation to extend the commission's mandate possibly even longer than 18 months until the commission decides enough of its recommendations have been enacted into law - Lou. DOBBS: Thank you very much Ed Henry.

As Senator Kerry criticizes the Bush White House, the Democratic Convention is trying to present a positive message. Tonight, Democrats will highlight the life and service of Senator Kerry with speeches by his wife and Senator Edward Kennedy and his former rival former Vermont Governor Howard Dean.

Joe Johns reports from the floor of the convention center -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Senator Edward Kennedy is giving his ace speech before a Democratic National Committee. There will be a large contingent of his family on hand. As many as 90 people, we are told. He is expected to showcase, as one aide put it, the hometown he loves, Boston, Massachusetts.

He's also expected to talk about all of the challenges, he says, are facing the United States, both domestic and internationally. Another speaker tonight, very high profile, Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont, the doctor who really energized the liberal base in the United States with his run before Kerry actually became the presumptive nominee. He is expected to talk about empowerment of voters and making voters proud of the fact that they are Democrats.

The highlight of this evening of course, Barak Obama, the state senator from Illinois. He's expected to speak as well. He's running for the United States Senate. He would be only the third African American United States senator, if elected. His speech, we are told, is probably going to begin at least very biographically in order to sort of introduce himself to the Democratic National Convention.

Lou, back to you.

DOBBS: Joe, thank you very much. As Joe reported, Teresa Heinz Kerry is the featured speaker tonight. The wife of Senator Kerry has a similar mission to her husband this week, introducing herself to the American people. Her speech could also give the first indication of just what kind of first lady Teresa Heinz Kerry hopes to be.

Bill Schneider reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Members of the Democratic Caucus...

BILL SCHNEIDER, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): First ladies are expected to care about issues, but Hillary Clinton went one step further. She was political.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should not have a health care system in which costs drive who gets health care.

SCHNEIDER: Ultimately Mrs. Clinton decided to do the right thing. She became a politician.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow! This is amazing! Thank you all. SCHNEIDER: Laura Bush has followed a more traditional first lady model, involved but not really political.

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: Watching TV isn't really very good for your brain. But reading is exercise for your brain.

SCHNEIDER: She certainly defends her husband's policies. A first lady is expected to do that.

BUSH: For small business owners, tax relief means expanding their operations and adding jobs.

SCHNEIDER: But Mrs. Bush does not have her own political agenda. That difference shows up in the way the public sees the two most recent first ladies. Opinion of Hillary Clinton is strongly political. Democrats love her. Republicans do not. Opinion of Laura Bush is much less political. Republicans love her. But most Democrats like her as well. Which model would Teresa Heinz Kerry follow? She's a wealthy activist

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, SEN. KERRY'S WIFE: The fact that I have access to money, to power, that kind of power, is a joy, because I can do the things I used to do on the other side, pro-actively.

SCHNEIDER: But she says she would not take on a policymaking role. At least not as first lady.

HEINZ KERRY: I would not, however, want to be appointed to a position that was without going through a hearing, as any other appointment of a president.

SCHNEIDER: She intends to define her own role, more activist than Laura Bush, but not as political as Hillary Clinton.

HEINZ KERRY: Let Laura Bush be Laura Bush. Let Hillary be Hillary. And all I ask for is give me a chance.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: It's fine for a first lady to speak her mind. It's expected these days. But if she assumes political responsibility, she'll have to face a difficult question. Who elected her - Lou.

DOBBS: And a familiar question. The two for one argument. Bill Schneider, thank you very much. We'll look forward to Teresa Heinz Kerry's speech tonight.

We'll have much more on this convention just ahead. But turning now to the worsening hostage crisis in Iraq. Secretary of State Colin Powell today called upon foreigners in Iraq to stand firm against insurgents hostage taking and threats of murder. But sources tell CNN that the Egyptian government paid a large ransom for the release of one of its diplomats in Iraq.

Matthew Chance reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Freedom for one Egyptian diplomat, but at a cost. The security source in Iraq tells CNN hundreds of thousands of dollars were paid for his release, handed in cash to the group seen here holding him hostage. Information was confirmed to CNN by high-ranking Iraqi source. Egypt denies any money changed hands.

MAMDOUH QUTB, FREED HOSTAGE (through translator): They treated me well and apologized for any problems they caused by kidnapping me. I appreciated this, and so did my government. It was a sign of good relations between Egypt and Iraq.

CHANCE: The previously unknown group, The Lions of God Brigade, said that they were holding Mamdouh Qutb, the third highest-ranking diplomat in the Egyptian embassy here because of his country's commitments to providing security assistance to the interim government of Iraq. One CNN source says that while they paid the ransom, no concessions were made by Egypt on its security agreements. There is concern, though, what effect ransom payments by countries and companies in Iraq could have.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: It becomes a gross national product after awhile if it becomes lucrative and that's the danger of paying ransom. Governments know that, but they also have a domestic problem. They have a domestic audience they have to satisfy. And many of these governments right now are feeling, hey, we didn't cause this problem in Iraq and now we're having to deal with it.

CHANCE: But the cost of saving one life may prove far higher than it seems.

(on camera): The finger of blame for this surge of kidnappings has been pointed by many at the Philippines for pulling out their forces early in response to a hostage demand last week. But in fact, security sources in Baghdad say the actual problem started much earlier. For months there have been kidnappings in Iraq and secret negotiations to free hostages. From here on it may be a downward slide, they say.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Still ahead here, three top political journalists join me to give us their assessment of the Democratic Convention so far and whether it will convince Americans to vote for Senator Kerry.

I'll also be talking with former White House adviser Congressman Rahm Emanuel about Senator Kerry's economic vision and how to prevent American jobs from being exported.

And in our special report, "Middle Class Squeeze" tonight, our schools, our children facing a crisis in education. Tonight our special report on what Democrats would do to fix America's broken schools.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Our special report "Middle Class Squeeze" tonight focusing on education. The Democratic platform calls for sweeping reforms in schools across the country, but so far, the Kerry campaign has not exactly been forthcoming about details in the ways in which it will accomplish those goals.

Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Democrats predictably give the Bush administration failing grades for our nation's schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK...

TUCKER: Here's what the Kerry/Edwards ticket says it will do for our kids. Fix crumbling schools, support teachers, reduce class size. The kind of goals, which are kind of hard to argue with. But so far the Kerry campaign has been vague on how it will fulfill those promises. What has caught the attention of state school boards is Kerry's idea to create a $200-billion education trust fund to direct more federal moneys to local school districts.

BRENDA WELBURN, NAT'L ASSN. STATE BOARDS OF ED: One of the things that we found interesting was Senator Kerry's proposal for an education trust. And I'm not sure that that will pay for all of the proposals that he's recommending, but certainly it would generate a dialogue about how we fund education in the United States.

TUCKER: Additionally, the Kerry campaign is proposing a $25- billion bond buy back program to help build or upgrade schools. That's about one-fifth of the money needed, according to the Council of the Great City Schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to be a policeman...

TUCKER: The Democrats are also talking about emphasizing preschool programs, but again, critics find the rhetoric short of revealing.

CHESTER FINN, THOMAS B. FORDHAM FOUNDATION: Recent analysis at the Brookings Institution of Kerry's preschool proposals basically said he's being purposely vague so that he doesn't have to commit any particular amount of money to preschool. That he doesn't have a specific preschool proposal.

TUCKER: The Democrats support higher teacher pay and have floated a proposal to attract educators to schools which don't typically draw strong teachers.

MICHAEL CASSERLY, COUN. OF THE GREAT CITY SCHOOLS: Senator Kerry does have a proposal that would provide additional bonuses for teachers that teach in poorer schools in exchange for higher achievement performance from the students.

TUCKER: Just how will it all be funded is not clear, but the Democrats say it can be done with spending cuts elsewhere and increased taxes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: One of the things the Democrats might want to be careful of is making too much of this spending issue. During Bush's four years in office spending on education has risen more than 60 percent, compared to 19 percent during Clinton's eight years in office -- Lou.

DOBBS: Bill, that's - it's fascinating. And the issue is so critical, so important, the contest over education in this campaign is such -- frankly, it's a mess.

TUCKER: And there are no specifics. And I think we're owed specifics from both parties about what they intend to do to better the education in this country, Lou.

DOBBS: Bill Tucker, I think most Americans would agree with you. Thank you very much.

My guest tonight is working with the Kerry campaign on its economic vision. Congressman Rahm Emanuel of Illinois says middle class families in his state are struggling under the Bush administration's economic policy. Congressman Emanuel formerly served as senior adviser to President Clinton, joining us tonight from the Convention Center. Good to have you with us Congressman.

REP. RAHM EMANUEL (D), ILLINOIS: Good to be back, Lou.

DOBBS: Your former boss seemed to energize folks last night. But the call for job creation as Bill Tucker just reported the specifics on education. Senator Kerry has a lot of details to bring forward. Are those going to be advanced, do you think, this week?

EMANUEL: Oh he's going to have to, otherwise his speech will not succeed. I think what the American people need and what Senator Kerry will deliver is his vision of how he's going alleviate the squeeze on middle class families. Remember health care costs have gone up now up to $9,000 from $6,500 in the last three years. College costs, 26 percent in two years with no additional assistance. Pensions and retirement securities have basically evaporated and household bankruptcies for families is up and incomes have been stagnant.

And so he has to address -- I think he has a very detailed health care plan. He has a plan on accessing college education for middle class families. And I think if he does that, he'll deal with what I think is basically the middle class saying they have experienced a wage and benefit recession. Where the boardroom is doing well, it has not driven down to the employees' pay stub yet.

DOBBS: Congressman, talking here last night with the chairman of the Democratic National Committee Terry McAuliffe, with Paul Begala. The two disagreed on the message that's necessary for Senator Kerry to articulate, whether it's necessary to distill that message into one passionate framed rational persuasive statement or a broad plan. Which do you think is the better course, the more productive course for Senator Kerry?

EMANUEL: Well, look, I think he's laid out that he wants America stronger at home and more secure abroad. And I think you can't change that at this point. And I think he's got -- what he does have to do is I think there's a hunger for detail which your piece earlier eluded to and that is he has a very detailed health care plan about controlling costs and expanding to the uninsured. But those are two big factors in driving up costs here in this country and taking basically the, you know out of the private sector, the -- what you would call catastrophic and bringing in the young and uninsured into the system would help control costs for all of us and expand the universality. That's a very detailed plan.

He has to provide that. He has to talk about how to put our fiscal house in order and make sure that America's economy is once again growing, producing jobs, reducing the deficit. If he does that, he will succeed. But he also, you know, it's not the task we had in '92 when I worked for Bill Clinton or '96 in the re-election because we are at war. And he must talk about a different sense of where America is and how Americans see themselves integrated and dealing with the world around them both from an economic standpoint on trade and from his national security support (UNINTELLIGIBLE) point on terrorism.

DOBBS: And that seems to be, at least according to all of the polling that we're doing here that I have seen, a great vulnerability for Senator Kerry. He's not been able to get the kind of traction that I'm sure he and the campaign would like. His views on Iraq are not fully understood by the electorate that has been polled. How does he deal with that?

EMANUEL: Lou, well first of all, as you noticed, in the last four months your reader pools, he laid out a vision about what we had to do in Iraq. And the Bush administration started mimicking him. I think the 9/11 commission in a weird way offers an opportunity to shake up the deck of cards again and say look, it's in the report. We have applied our resources and our strengths and our assets in the wrong way to take on terror. It is not terror -- we're taking on radical Islam and terror is a tactic. We have to have a battle of ideas. We have to focus on Afghanistan and finish the job there. And I think there's a broader argument about America's role in the world and how we're attacking terror and how we're applying our resources.

One of the things I talk about is in Afghanistan we know they're planning an attack on the United States, al Qaeda, and yet we're in the process of drawing troops down and we've got 140,000 troops in Iraq. We should be applying more troops to Afghanistan, to not take our eye off the ball. So the 9/11 commission offers, I think, the senator a way to make that case given the Bush administration from a tactical standpoint has begun -- wanted to for the last three or four months mimic John Kerry's ideas on internationalizing Iraq and the effort there. And so I think he -- but he has to do that. And one other thing. As a challenger with four months to go in an election, the American people are not going to walk away from a sitting incumbent president and say he's a failure on foreign policy. There's too much at risk. They're going to make their final judgment at the last debate and then they're going to move. And I don't think at the end of the day this election will be close. It will be close until the end and then it's going to open up because the American people, that undecided, will make a move and after they basically heard the case. And John Kerry...

(CROSSTALK)

EMANUEL: ... I'm sorry.

DOBBS: Wrap up quickly, if you would.

EMANUEL: All I was going say, he has to make the case here and then take it on for the next four months.

DOBBS: By my calculation, Congressman, we're a little less than four months now. Time's flying when we're having all of this fun. But, as you suggest...

EMANUEL: That's one end...

DOBBS: ... which to a different case articulate and the American people to decide. We thank you, Congressman Rahm Emanuel.

EMANUEL: Thank you.

DOBBS: As many adults across the country are glued to their televisions watching the Democratic Convention nationwide, a non-news television network has a very different message for kids who are viewing. They're saying, rather boldly, rather dramatically and I think appropriately, turn off the television. Nickelodeon has begun a let's just play campaign in which Nickelodeon is urging its audience to do just that. Nickelodeon plans to go off the air for three hours on Saturday, October 2.

During that time it will show a graphic saying it's time to go outside. Nickelodeon's president says kids aren't playing as much after school as they used to and the network wants to make sure kids know it's important and I think it's important that Nickelodeon made that kind of contribution.

Still ahead here tonight, the last Democrats in the White House make their pitch for the new Democratic team. Three leading journalists in the country join us with more on the convention and the Democratic Party and its candidates.

And American shrimpers say a glut of cheap imports is threatening to put them out of business -- the entire shrimp industry in this country.

We'll have those stories and much more still ahead here tonight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: We're going back to FleetCenter in Boston for more coverage of the Democratic National Convention. I'll be talking with three of the top political journalists in the country next. We want to turn to some of your thoughts. Many of you writing in about last night's kickoff of the convention.

Judith Arnold in Rochester, New York wrote to say, "I think presidential conventions are a waste of time and money when it has already been decided who is running. I would rather see that time and money spent on debates."

Allan McCutchen of Raleigh, North Carolina, "The most important issue for the upcoming election is the accuracy of the ballot. By now there are enough questionable events that our citizens should be very concerned about the accuracy of the upcoming election. It should be a requirement to produce a paper trail of every voting machine."

And Andrew in Enumclaw, Washington. "Lou, with the conventions in full swing, people are asking whether they're relevant anymore and why we have them. We have them because the balloon lobbyists have both parties by the throat."

And Dr. S. Von Knasick of New York, New York. "Lou, why not demand our politicians wear patches of their sponsors like NASCAR drivers so we as voters can see what powerful corporations and PACs are pulling the strings of a given candidate."

We love hearing your thoughts. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.

The Commerce Department will decide tomorrow whether to provide a little more relief to another American industry that's been devastated by cheap imports. Nearly 90 percent of our shrimp industry has been wiped out. Ninety percent of the shrimp consumed in this country is now imported. More American jobs have been lost, and the few remaining are in jeopardy. Ahead of tomorrow's decision we revisit the shrimpers of the Nancy Joy in the Gulf of Mexico with John Zarrella reporting.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Delong stares out over the waters of the Gulf of Mexico just killing time, waiting for the Gulf day to end so his day can begin. Delong captains the shrimp boat Nancy Joy. So far on this trip, there has been little joy. The shrimp have been elusive. One look at the catch in the test net and Delong knows it will be another tough night to go along with the tough times.

JOHN DELONG, NANCY JOY CAPTAIN: All fishermen are supposed to be optimists. But now it's really getting harder and harder to throw lines off because -- you know, why? Why? ZARRELLA: Shrimpers say they are sinking under the weight of imported farm raised shrimp, which account for 90 percent of the U.S. market. They have charged that half a dozen countries are dumping, selling shrimp below cost, making it impossible to get what they call a fair price for shrimp caught in U.S. waters. The Commerce Department agreeing with the shrimpers regarding China and Vietnam, has recommended tariffs on shrimp from those countries. A decision on four more countries is expected later this week.

TRAVIS LARKIN, SEAFOOD EXCHANGE: Restricting imported products by either reducing the amount that can come into the country or raising the price does nothing to increase the catch of the domestic fisherman. Really all that it does is raise the price to the consumer.

ZARRELLA: Importers say farm-raised shrimp are a more consistent quality available year round and not subject to the whims of nature. On the Nancy Joy, nature has not been kind this time; the haul is poor.

The net is filled with as many scorpion fish, flat fish and crabs as there are shrimp. Dolphins wait for a handout. Sharks, circling the boat, dine on the bottom fish thrown back in. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

The shrimpers say they have no problem with the competition that comes with free trade but say they say they want to be sure that free trade is also fair trade.

John Zarrella, CNN, on the Nancy Joy in the Gulf of Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: And obviously, U.S. trade policies at the center of the campaign in the upcoming election. I'll be talking with Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty and Roger Simon about that issue and others at the Democratic National Convention in just a moment.

And, Democrats trying to emphasize the positives of Senators Kerry and Edwards while trying to tone down their criticism of President Bush. I'll be talking with leading political columnist E.J. Dionne about whether that strategy is working.

And that is the world's most active volcano. It's putting on quite a show in Hawaii. We'll be showing you those extraordinary pictures in just a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: I'm joined now from Boston, Ron Brownstein, National Political Correspondent the "L.A. Times," Karen Tumulty, National Political Correspondent, "Time Magazine," Roger Simon, Political Editor, "U.S. News and World Report" all joining us from the epicenter of the political moment there in Boston.

Karen, let me begin with you. What did you think of the performance last night?

KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME MAGAZINE": Well, I think Bill Clinton framed the argument about as well as anybody can. And it was, I think, the height of sort of the Bush bashing phase of the week, and now we're going to move into the, presumably, if we can believe what they're telling us, some more sort of positive uplifting, come-up-with-a-message phase of the week.

DOBBS: Roger, did Bill Clinton do so well that he is effectively upstaged Senator Kerry? Can Kerry match or exceed that performance?

ROGER SIMON, POLITICAL EDITOR, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT": I think those people who vetted Clinton's speech made sure of it. It was a good speech. It was vintage Clinton.

But like all Clinton's good speeches, you can't find six really strong quotes to pull out of it. A lot of what Bill Clinton does is his style, his personal warmth and his ability to connect with an audience. I think John Kerry's speech is going to have the strong, memorable lines that his speech writers have been working on for quite some time.

RON BROWNSTEIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "L.A. TIMES": Roger, I disagree with that. I think that Clinton last night -- the two things that were quite striking, one -- and really the most remarkable thing of the evening -- was Clinton himself echoing Jimmy Carter and, for that matter, Max Cleland, earlier today in raising the issue of President Bush's service in Vietnam.

Kerry went; Bush served in the National Guard: an extraordinary circumstance that the Democrats are raising that issue and even more extraordinary to have Clinton raise it. Secondly, I thought he crystallized their argument on National Security far more effectively than anything Kerry has done so far.

I mean, he came the closest to having a bumper sticker for their argument when he said, "Strength and wisdom are not competing values; they're not incompatible." And that was, I thought, a very powerful personalization of their argument and one that I would be surprised if Kerry does not pick up on himself as we go forward.

SIMON: Yes, but the question was whether this will overshadow Kerry's speech?

BROWNSTEIN: No, it does not.

SIMON: And if it does, it was a major error.

BROWNSTEIN: No, it does not. No. It never will. It never will.

TUMULTY: That, of course, is why they brought him out there on the first night to give a few days of breathing space there. By the way, a historical footnote, I found it very interesting that in essence Clinton admitted to being a draft dodger...

SIMON: Yes.

TUMULTY: ... last night as well.

DOBBS: He threw himself over the boat along with a couple of other folks, didn't he?

Senator Kerry commanded a boat in Vietnam with distinction, with valor. How important is that, Ron, in your judgment, to improving the Democrats' least image on national security? You've written that they appear wishy-washy on Iraq. How do you think that will play?

BROWNSTEIN: Clearly, it will help somewhat, Lou. But whether it helps as much as they hope, I think, is one of the biggest gambles of this campaign and certainly of this convention.

I think you see competing frames being established by the Bush campaign and the Kerry campaign for judging Kerry's fitness as commander in chief, which is obviously a critical hurdle in this campaign.

The Kerry people argue the judgments he made under fire in Vietnam 35 years ago -- they have his crew mates out there making this argument -- those judgments show that he has the steeliness to handle a crisis as commander in chief.

The Bush campaign is arguing that the real measure are the decisions he's made in his public life since, particularly in the Senate, in votes on intelligence and national security and, even more so, by not offering a clear-cut unequivocal message on Iraq.

And I think you will see these very competing frames that will be fought out not only this week but through the fall. And I think it will be an important part of the result of this election which one of those takes hold with the voters.

DOBBS: Roger, the voters are, of course, the target of everything that is emanating from Boston. Democrats say that they're going to be very positive. They're not going to attack the Bush administration further.

Is this campaign not -- this convention not only open to charges of being irrelevant to the process but also being just outright dull?

SIMON: Well, you have to be a bit of a political junkie to watch every minute of it. But, I wish, actually the networks would carry more of this convention. This is an important public service.

DOBBS: Which we're happy to provide here at CNN, and we hope they don't hear your clarion call.

SIMON: And congratulations to you. This is an important decision we're making here. We're picking a new or retaining the old president of the United States. And networks who bring us every lap of the Indianapolis 500 but can't bring us five minutes of the convention, I don't think are doing a service for the public.

DOBBS: Karen?

TUMULTY: Well, I'm not entirely sure this is a terrible allocation of resources. I mean, if you had been tuned in a minute ago you would have missed the retro moment of Peter, Paul and Mary singing "Blowin' in the Wind." But I do think that these big speeches at night do very much frame the argument, put the party on its path and they are important.

DOBBS: Tonight could be a very important night, Karen, because Teresa Heinz Kerry; her introduction to the voting public. You talked with Teresa Heinz Kerry. What do you expect tonight? What do you think the rest of us should be expecting? How important is this evening for her and for her husband?

TUMULTY: Well, I think, we're going to see her doing something that she almost never, ever, ever does, which is read from a script. Very rarely does she read from a prepared text. And certainly we have discovered earlier this week exactly why they want her both on time and very much scripted tonight. I think it's going to be very positive, it's going to stress her own story, her own immigrant story coming to this country.

And, you know, I think that the judgment at this point is for, among undecided voters whether this woman is in fact a breath of fresh air, you know, a badly needed dose of spontaneity to her often staid husband or whether she's a loose cannon.

DOBBS: Loose cannon, or however you want to style it; let me ask this question of you, Ron and Roger first. I have to say that I found absolutely nothing wrong with Teresa Heinz Kerry saying to a reporter who had offended her or annoyed her, something that was rather succinct, direct and honest. Roger?

SIMON: I agree. And, in fact, he wasn't even reporter, he was an editorial writer. So, you know, he doesn't even get that status.

No, that was refreshing. And to show you how bored the media is, we made it into a huge story. Teresa Heinz Kerry is a different kind of presidential or potential presidential spouse. She doesn't see her role in life as being a spouse.

She's the head of a billion dollar foundation. She makes important decisions every day, and she doesn't define herself as being married to John Kerry.

DOBBS: Is that potentially a problem for this candidate, Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: You know, Lou, I don't think so. I think we have to keep our eye on the ball here. I mean, this is a consequential election for Americans. Between Iraq, particularly the war on terror and the economy, people see big stakes in this election. I wouldn't be surprised if turnout goes up.

I think ultimately voting for president is a very personalized choice. All of these things, the keynote speech tonight, Teresa Heinz Kerry's appearance, John Edwards' appearance, all of them are interesting.

But in the end, it is going to be the judgment made about John Kerry and George Bush that drive this election and, really, the way the conventions work now, they build up to that speech Thursday night. He has to deliver something that the American people feel confidence in him at the end of and that is a challenge. No one else can do that for him.

DOBBS: Karen, one last question, one last answer if you would, quickly. And that is: President Bush is still ahead in the polls. What's it going to take?

TUMULTY: Well, I think the first hurdle that John Kerry is going to have to clear with that speech is the likability hurdle just to get people in a frame of mind where they can actually imagine having this guy in their living rooms for four to eight years.

DOBBS: Karen, Roger, Ron, we thank you all three of you there at the Fleet Center. Continue to have fun, and we look forward to more substantive information moving from you to us.

That brings to us the subject of our poll tonight. Did you watch more than 30 minutes of last night's Democratic Convention? Cast your answer at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming up later.

Still ahead here: "Washington Post" Columnist E.J. Dionne, his assessment of the convention so far and what the Democrats need to do.

A new report from the Federal Reserve says, "A belief in hell is good for prosperity." This was a Federal Reserve-sponsored conclusion. We'll tell you all about that and a great deal more. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Thousands of people have been traveling to Hawaii's big island to see a remarkable sight from the world's most active volcano: lava again flowing down Mount Kilauea -- I have got to say that wrong: Kilauea. Anyone want to tell me how to pronounce that? Ki-la-ue-a. That's it. Thank you very much -- and into the ocean, spawning a cloud of steam into the air.

Each lava flow increases actually the size of the island. The lava has formed more than 500 acres of new land in just two decades. Amazing pictures; amazing pronunciation as well. My apologies.

A long awaited rally today on Wall Street. No apologies required today. The Dow up 123 points, the NASDAQ up 30, the S&P up almost 11.

Christine Romans, tell us all about it.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been weeks of selling, so this is the Dow's best rally now, in two months. The S&P and the NASDAQ snapped back from its lowest prices all year. A report, Lou, showed consumer confidence at the highest in two years, another strong housing report and retail gas prices fell two cents in the latest week.

But oil prices have been steadily moving higher: today, up another percent in just below $42. Lou, all the things I have mentioned are traditional ways to measure the economy. How's this one for a not so traditional economic indicator: fear of hell.

The St. Louis Fed has published an economic essay titled "The Fear of Hell Might Fire Up the Economy." Fed economists say countries with a wide belief in hell have less corruption and more prosperity; 71 percent of Americans, according to the St. Louis Fed, believe in hell and have the highest per capita income in the world.

Look at Ireland: 53 percent believe, Canada: 42 percent, Japan: 32 percent. The report also quotes Adam Smith, who said that in societies where there is a widespread belief in God, the values of honesty and integrity are more prevalent.

I have never heard of hell as an economic indicator, but from the St. Louis Fed...

DOBBS: What in the world prompted the St. Louis Fed to make this causal connection?

ROMANS: Looking for nontraditional ways. We know about productivity, we know about GVP. Two of the Feds economists; an economist there and a senior economist...

DOBBS: Can we put that up again? Can we put up that graphic very quickly?

ROMANS: Now it doesn't explain Turkey: 85 percent fear of hell there.

DOBBS: U.S., Ireland, Canada, Japan. If one looks at most of the Middle Eastern countries, with the exception, obviously of the oil-rich states -- if we look at South America, in which there is a broad religious base among the population that certainly doesn't hold. So I think the St. Louis Fed is out of its mind.

ROMANS: I don't know what possessed them, Lou.

DOBBS: Well, that's a -- I think I do, but I won't share that tonight. Christine, thank you.

DOBBS: Still ahead here: more from the Democratic Convention in Boston. I'll be talking with leading political columnist E.J. Dionne about whether the Democratic strategy will work. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: At the Democratic Convention, party leaders are pushing for a more positive message, we're told, but my guest tonight says former Presidents Clinton and Carter and Vice President Gore all were critical of President Bush in their speeches last night.

Even though Republicans don't like the criticism, it's all part of the deal. Joining me now, E.J. Dionne, Political Columnist for the "Washington Post." Good to have you here.

E.J. DIONNE, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON POST": Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Are the Democrats succeeding in their attempt to identify what a Democrat is at this moment in history, and who Senator Kerry is?

DIONNE: Well, on the first, I think Bill Clinton's speech last night was a really sophisticated political speech. It sounded very smooth, but he was making an argument. He basically said that Republicans are on the side of wealthy people like me, Bill Clinton said.

It was very funny when he said, "You know, the Republicans were kind of mean to me when I was President. I never thought they'd treat me so well." Then he talked about all the tax cuts he, as a now rich person, has gotten and contrasted that with a lot of programs.

The other point he made for the party that I think was very interesting is, he said, "The Republicans have to divide America. We don't. Democrats don't." And his point was that the Democrats actually, on a lot of issues, health care, education, lifting up the poor, have very broad support in the country and they can just go out and make their case. Now, for a lot of Republicans that's not convincing. But I think there may be moderate Republicans and independents who responded.

As for Kerry, I think the most powerful case for him last night was made by the Reverend David Alston, who shared time on that swiftboat with Kerry, is a powerful preacher. That's kind of a core message they're trying to get out.

DOBBS: E.J., as we look at the reality of this, the principle part of this tax cut came with support of the Democratic Party in 2001. When we look at education, it was a bipartisan effort. The criticisms are rather muted at the margin. Kerry has still not defined himself on Iraq.

There are a lot of things that are turning also President Bush's way from the perspective of Senator Kerry. The economy is adding jobs, not nearly at the rate it should. The economic growth is remarkable. I mean, how much of this is lasting? How much of it is substantive? How much of it, in your mind, would be determinate come November?

DIONNE: Well, that's a good question. I think on the tax cut the fact is most Democrats and, notably John Kerry and John Edwards voted against the tax cut. That was a Republican plan even though some Democrats did vote for it, fewer voted for the second Bush tax cut.

On Iraq, it's complicated because Democrats are walking this very difficult line. What they really want to say is -- and Al Gore said it explicitly. He had been against the war but he didn't give an anti-war speech last night. He gave an anti-Bush speech. He said, "Whether you're for or against the war, the administration made a mess of this." And that's the kind of case they're wanting to make.

I think you're also going to hear a kind of implication on Iraq that it's Bush, not Kerry, who's the flip flopper because it's Bush who is now trying to get help from the international community. And Kerry is going to argue, "I'm in a better position to get help."

The trick is that Kerry has to make that case and still look strong. You can't look around this convention hall without seeing the word "strong" on the boards here. And the question -- I think Clinton did a fairly good job of saying, "You can be strong and wise." That was his formulation. But that is what they got to get out of here.

DOBBS: And you also wrote in your column talking about Kerry Democrats. Have you come to a conclusion yet about what is a Kerry Democrat?

DIONNE: Well, I think it's difficult. The column was arguing we kind of have a sense of what a Clinton Democrat is and I talked about Barack Obama, whom I really believe deserves all this billing as a rising star in the party. He's an exceptional person. I think some day there may be Obama Democrats.

There aren't that many people who yet identify themselves with Kerry Democrats. Right now anti-Bush Democrats decided John Kerry was the best guy to carry their banner. I think if we create Kerry Democrats, if Kerry creates them, it's his job to create them, they'll be created because he creates some link between this special moment after 9/11. The idea that Americans came into solidarity with each other that day and makes a broader argument that this is not just about terror or foreign policy but about how we treat each other at home.

As yet, there are a lot of people here who are rooting for John Kerry as a baseball player. They're not sure he can hit a home run on Thursday, but they are sure hoping that he will.

DOBBS: Well, we're going to turn now, E.J., to somebody that they are also hoping will hit a home run, and that is Senator Kerry's wife. We thank you for being here and we look forward to talking to you frequently in the days ahead.

DIONNE: Thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: Taking a look at some of your thoughts on Teresa Heinz Kerry, telling a journalist to, quote unquote, "Shove it."

June Wood in Richmond, Virginia: "When I heard Teresa Kerry's comment, it put a smile on my face throughout the day. It is so refreshing that there is a potential first lady who is herself and is going to remain herself."

Kathleen Hager, in New York, New York: "Mrs. Kerry's response to a harassing reporter doesn't hold a candle to what Vice President Cheney said to Senator Leahy."

And Tootsie, in Cloverdale, Indiana: "I think Teresa Kerry was right on! Go gal go! She should tell Ralph Nader the same thing!"

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to LouDobbs@cnn.com. Coming up: the results of our poll. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now, the results of tonight's poll and the executive suites at CNN, I'm sure, are cheering just a loud commotion there. Eighty-two percent of you say you watched more than 30 minutes of last night's Democratic Convention; 18 percent say you did not.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Former Assistant Secretary of State, Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, joins us live from the Democratic National Convention, "Washington Post" columnist E.J. Dionne and our panel of top political journalists return. We hope you will, as well.

And in our face-off tomorrow, opposing views on which candidate, Kerry or Bush, would make the best president. For all of us here, good night from New York.

"Anderson Cooper 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired July 27, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, Senator John Kerry moves homeland security and the issue of who is best qualified to prevent another terrorist attack to the center of his campaign. Senator Kerry wants the September 11 Commission report implemented immediately.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You can't treat the commission's report as something that you hope will go away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Tonight we report on the competing Democratic and Republican visions for homeland security.

And Senator Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry, tonight delivers a prime-time speech at the Democratic Convention. We'll have a special report on Teresa Heinz Kerry and just what kind of first lady she would make.

I'll also be talking with former White House adviser Congressman Rahm Emanuel.

In "Middle Class Squeeze" tonight, Senator Kerry promises sweeping reforms in our educational system, but Senator Kerry's proposals are short on details.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's being purposely vague so that he doesn't have to commit any particular amount of money to preschool.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: And American shrimpers are fighting a losing battle against cheap overseas imports of farm-raised shrimp. Will the Bush administration do anything to protect the American shrimp industry? We'll have a special report.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, July 27th. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight Senator Kerry is calling on President Bush to implement the recommendations of the September 11 Commission immediately. Vice President Dick Cheney today said terrorist attacks, however, are not caused by the use of strength. Cheney said they are invited by the perception of weakness.

Ed Henry reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On his way to Boston, John Kerry is hammering President Bush over the 9/11 commission's final report.

KERRY: You can't treat the commission's report as something that you hope will go away, because this threat won't go away and the recommendations of the commission make sense and they should be implemented now.

(APPLAUSE)

HENRY: Republicans stress the president is on top of the situation, discussing the 9/11 report with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice in Texas. And in a visit with Marines at Camp Pendleton, Vice President Cheney said the administration's approach to the war on terror is the right one.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Terrorist attacks are not caused by the use of strength. They are invited by the perception of weakness.

HENRY: The Kerry camp released a memo charging -- quote -- "In an act of political gymnastics remarkable even for this White House, the Bush campaign is using the report it has yet to embrace written by a commission that it originally opposed to justify its reelection effort."

And Kerry wants the commission, whose mandate expires in August, to get an 18-month extension to oversee, monitor and track implementation of the reform proposals, a move the White House refused to endorse. The jockeying over who will embrace the commission's proposals first has gotten intense.

DR. PAUL LIGHT, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think there's just tremendous political pressure for both parties to get ahead on the issue. National security is a big campaign issue for John Kerry, and it's a big strength for George Bush. And the party that gets there first is going to be the party that gets some votes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Lou, Congress is also now moving quickly to address the 9/11 report. As CNN first reported today the Senate, which planned to kick off its hearings next week, will now hold its first hearing this Friday, right at the end of the Democratic Convention. And House Speaker Dennis Hastert had initially urged a go-slow approach but amid a lot of pressure, House Republicans are now planning a hearing of their own next week and now two lawmakers are drafting legislation to extend the commission's mandate possibly even longer than 18 months until the commission decides enough of its recommendations have been enacted into law - Lou. DOBBS: Thank you very much Ed Henry.

As Senator Kerry criticizes the Bush White House, the Democratic Convention is trying to present a positive message. Tonight, Democrats will highlight the life and service of Senator Kerry with speeches by his wife and Senator Edward Kennedy and his former rival former Vermont Governor Howard Dean.

Joe Johns reports from the floor of the convention center -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Senator Edward Kennedy is giving his ace speech before a Democratic National Committee. There will be a large contingent of his family on hand. As many as 90 people, we are told. He is expected to showcase, as one aide put it, the hometown he loves, Boston, Massachusetts.

He's also expected to talk about all of the challenges, he says, are facing the United States, both domestic and internationally. Another speaker tonight, very high profile, Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont, the doctor who really energized the liberal base in the United States with his run before Kerry actually became the presumptive nominee. He is expected to talk about empowerment of voters and making voters proud of the fact that they are Democrats.

The highlight of this evening of course, Barak Obama, the state senator from Illinois. He's expected to speak as well. He's running for the United States Senate. He would be only the third African American United States senator, if elected. His speech, we are told, is probably going to begin at least very biographically in order to sort of introduce himself to the Democratic National Convention.

Lou, back to you.

DOBBS: Joe, thank you very much. As Joe reported, Teresa Heinz Kerry is the featured speaker tonight. The wife of Senator Kerry has a similar mission to her husband this week, introducing herself to the American people. Her speech could also give the first indication of just what kind of first lady Teresa Heinz Kerry hopes to be.

Bill Schneider reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Members of the Democratic Caucus...

BILL SCHNEIDER, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): First ladies are expected to care about issues, but Hillary Clinton went one step further. She was political.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should not have a health care system in which costs drive who gets health care.

SCHNEIDER: Ultimately Mrs. Clinton decided to do the right thing. She became a politician.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow! This is amazing! Thank you all. SCHNEIDER: Laura Bush has followed a more traditional first lady model, involved but not really political.

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: Watching TV isn't really very good for your brain. But reading is exercise for your brain.

SCHNEIDER: She certainly defends her husband's policies. A first lady is expected to do that.

BUSH: For small business owners, tax relief means expanding their operations and adding jobs.

SCHNEIDER: But Mrs. Bush does not have her own political agenda. That difference shows up in the way the public sees the two most recent first ladies. Opinion of Hillary Clinton is strongly political. Democrats love her. Republicans do not. Opinion of Laura Bush is much less political. Republicans love her. But most Democrats like her as well. Which model would Teresa Heinz Kerry follow? She's a wealthy activist

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, SEN. KERRY'S WIFE: The fact that I have access to money, to power, that kind of power, is a joy, because I can do the things I used to do on the other side, pro-actively.

SCHNEIDER: But she says she would not take on a policymaking role. At least not as first lady.

HEINZ KERRY: I would not, however, want to be appointed to a position that was without going through a hearing, as any other appointment of a president.

SCHNEIDER: She intends to define her own role, more activist than Laura Bush, but not as political as Hillary Clinton.

HEINZ KERRY: Let Laura Bush be Laura Bush. Let Hillary be Hillary. And all I ask for is give me a chance.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: It's fine for a first lady to speak her mind. It's expected these days. But if she assumes political responsibility, she'll have to face a difficult question. Who elected her - Lou.

DOBBS: And a familiar question. The two for one argument. Bill Schneider, thank you very much. We'll look forward to Teresa Heinz Kerry's speech tonight.

We'll have much more on this convention just ahead. But turning now to the worsening hostage crisis in Iraq. Secretary of State Colin Powell today called upon foreigners in Iraq to stand firm against insurgents hostage taking and threats of murder. But sources tell CNN that the Egyptian government paid a large ransom for the release of one of its diplomats in Iraq.

Matthew Chance reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Freedom for one Egyptian diplomat, but at a cost. The security source in Iraq tells CNN hundreds of thousands of dollars were paid for his release, handed in cash to the group seen here holding him hostage. Information was confirmed to CNN by high-ranking Iraqi source. Egypt denies any money changed hands.

MAMDOUH QUTB, FREED HOSTAGE (through translator): They treated me well and apologized for any problems they caused by kidnapping me. I appreciated this, and so did my government. It was a sign of good relations between Egypt and Iraq.

CHANCE: The previously unknown group, The Lions of God Brigade, said that they were holding Mamdouh Qutb, the third highest-ranking diplomat in the Egyptian embassy here because of his country's commitments to providing security assistance to the interim government of Iraq. One CNN source says that while they paid the ransom, no concessions were made by Egypt on its security agreements. There is concern, though, what effect ransom payments by countries and companies in Iraq could have.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: It becomes a gross national product after awhile if it becomes lucrative and that's the danger of paying ransom. Governments know that, but they also have a domestic problem. They have a domestic audience they have to satisfy. And many of these governments right now are feeling, hey, we didn't cause this problem in Iraq and now we're having to deal with it.

CHANCE: But the cost of saving one life may prove far higher than it seems.

(on camera): The finger of blame for this surge of kidnappings has been pointed by many at the Philippines for pulling out their forces early in response to a hostage demand last week. But in fact, security sources in Baghdad say the actual problem started much earlier. For months there have been kidnappings in Iraq and secret negotiations to free hostages. From here on it may be a downward slide, they say.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Still ahead here, three top political journalists join me to give us their assessment of the Democratic Convention so far and whether it will convince Americans to vote for Senator Kerry.

I'll also be talking with former White House adviser Congressman Rahm Emanuel about Senator Kerry's economic vision and how to prevent American jobs from being exported.

And in our special report, "Middle Class Squeeze" tonight, our schools, our children facing a crisis in education. Tonight our special report on what Democrats would do to fix America's broken schools.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Our special report "Middle Class Squeeze" tonight focusing on education. The Democratic platform calls for sweeping reforms in schools across the country, but so far, the Kerry campaign has not exactly been forthcoming about details in the ways in which it will accomplish those goals.

Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Democrats predictably give the Bush administration failing grades for our nation's schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK...

TUCKER: Here's what the Kerry/Edwards ticket says it will do for our kids. Fix crumbling schools, support teachers, reduce class size. The kind of goals, which are kind of hard to argue with. But so far the Kerry campaign has been vague on how it will fulfill those promises. What has caught the attention of state school boards is Kerry's idea to create a $200-billion education trust fund to direct more federal moneys to local school districts.

BRENDA WELBURN, NAT'L ASSN. STATE BOARDS OF ED: One of the things that we found interesting was Senator Kerry's proposal for an education trust. And I'm not sure that that will pay for all of the proposals that he's recommending, but certainly it would generate a dialogue about how we fund education in the United States.

TUCKER: Additionally, the Kerry campaign is proposing a $25- billion bond buy back program to help build or upgrade schools. That's about one-fifth of the money needed, according to the Council of the Great City Schools.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to be a policeman...

TUCKER: The Democrats are also talking about emphasizing preschool programs, but again, critics find the rhetoric short of revealing.

CHESTER FINN, THOMAS B. FORDHAM FOUNDATION: Recent analysis at the Brookings Institution of Kerry's preschool proposals basically said he's being purposely vague so that he doesn't have to commit any particular amount of money to preschool. That he doesn't have a specific preschool proposal.

TUCKER: The Democrats support higher teacher pay and have floated a proposal to attract educators to schools which don't typically draw strong teachers.

MICHAEL CASSERLY, COUN. OF THE GREAT CITY SCHOOLS: Senator Kerry does have a proposal that would provide additional bonuses for teachers that teach in poorer schools in exchange for higher achievement performance from the students.

TUCKER: Just how will it all be funded is not clear, but the Democrats say it can be done with spending cuts elsewhere and increased taxes.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: One of the things the Democrats might want to be careful of is making too much of this spending issue. During Bush's four years in office spending on education has risen more than 60 percent, compared to 19 percent during Clinton's eight years in office -- Lou.

DOBBS: Bill, that's - it's fascinating. And the issue is so critical, so important, the contest over education in this campaign is such -- frankly, it's a mess.

TUCKER: And there are no specifics. And I think we're owed specifics from both parties about what they intend to do to better the education in this country, Lou.

DOBBS: Bill Tucker, I think most Americans would agree with you. Thank you very much.

My guest tonight is working with the Kerry campaign on its economic vision. Congressman Rahm Emanuel of Illinois says middle class families in his state are struggling under the Bush administration's economic policy. Congressman Emanuel formerly served as senior adviser to President Clinton, joining us tonight from the Convention Center. Good to have you with us Congressman.

REP. RAHM EMANUEL (D), ILLINOIS: Good to be back, Lou.

DOBBS: Your former boss seemed to energize folks last night. But the call for job creation as Bill Tucker just reported the specifics on education. Senator Kerry has a lot of details to bring forward. Are those going to be advanced, do you think, this week?

EMANUEL: Oh he's going to have to, otherwise his speech will not succeed. I think what the American people need and what Senator Kerry will deliver is his vision of how he's going alleviate the squeeze on middle class families. Remember health care costs have gone up now up to $9,000 from $6,500 in the last three years. College costs, 26 percent in two years with no additional assistance. Pensions and retirement securities have basically evaporated and household bankruptcies for families is up and incomes have been stagnant.

And so he has to address -- I think he has a very detailed health care plan. He has a plan on accessing college education for middle class families. And I think if he does that, he'll deal with what I think is basically the middle class saying they have experienced a wage and benefit recession. Where the boardroom is doing well, it has not driven down to the employees' pay stub yet.

DOBBS: Congressman, talking here last night with the chairman of the Democratic National Committee Terry McAuliffe, with Paul Begala. The two disagreed on the message that's necessary for Senator Kerry to articulate, whether it's necessary to distill that message into one passionate framed rational persuasive statement or a broad plan. Which do you think is the better course, the more productive course for Senator Kerry?

EMANUEL: Well, look, I think he's laid out that he wants America stronger at home and more secure abroad. And I think you can't change that at this point. And I think he's got -- what he does have to do is I think there's a hunger for detail which your piece earlier eluded to and that is he has a very detailed health care plan about controlling costs and expanding to the uninsured. But those are two big factors in driving up costs here in this country and taking basically the, you know out of the private sector, the -- what you would call catastrophic and bringing in the young and uninsured into the system would help control costs for all of us and expand the universality. That's a very detailed plan.

He has to provide that. He has to talk about how to put our fiscal house in order and make sure that America's economy is once again growing, producing jobs, reducing the deficit. If he does that, he will succeed. But he also, you know, it's not the task we had in '92 when I worked for Bill Clinton or '96 in the re-election because we are at war. And he must talk about a different sense of where America is and how Americans see themselves integrated and dealing with the world around them both from an economic standpoint on trade and from his national security support (UNINTELLIGIBLE) point on terrorism.

DOBBS: And that seems to be, at least according to all of the polling that we're doing here that I have seen, a great vulnerability for Senator Kerry. He's not been able to get the kind of traction that I'm sure he and the campaign would like. His views on Iraq are not fully understood by the electorate that has been polled. How does he deal with that?

EMANUEL: Lou, well first of all, as you noticed, in the last four months your reader pools, he laid out a vision about what we had to do in Iraq. And the Bush administration started mimicking him. I think the 9/11 commission in a weird way offers an opportunity to shake up the deck of cards again and say look, it's in the report. We have applied our resources and our strengths and our assets in the wrong way to take on terror. It is not terror -- we're taking on radical Islam and terror is a tactic. We have to have a battle of ideas. We have to focus on Afghanistan and finish the job there. And I think there's a broader argument about America's role in the world and how we're attacking terror and how we're applying our resources.

One of the things I talk about is in Afghanistan we know they're planning an attack on the United States, al Qaeda, and yet we're in the process of drawing troops down and we've got 140,000 troops in Iraq. We should be applying more troops to Afghanistan, to not take our eye off the ball. So the 9/11 commission offers, I think, the senator a way to make that case given the Bush administration from a tactical standpoint has begun -- wanted to for the last three or four months mimic John Kerry's ideas on internationalizing Iraq and the effort there. And so I think he -- but he has to do that. And one other thing. As a challenger with four months to go in an election, the American people are not going to walk away from a sitting incumbent president and say he's a failure on foreign policy. There's too much at risk. They're going to make their final judgment at the last debate and then they're going to move. And I don't think at the end of the day this election will be close. It will be close until the end and then it's going to open up because the American people, that undecided, will make a move and after they basically heard the case. And John Kerry...

(CROSSTALK)

EMANUEL: ... I'm sorry.

DOBBS: Wrap up quickly, if you would.

EMANUEL: All I was going say, he has to make the case here and then take it on for the next four months.

DOBBS: By my calculation, Congressman, we're a little less than four months now. Time's flying when we're having all of this fun. But, as you suggest...

EMANUEL: That's one end...

DOBBS: ... which to a different case articulate and the American people to decide. We thank you, Congressman Rahm Emanuel.

EMANUEL: Thank you.

DOBBS: As many adults across the country are glued to their televisions watching the Democratic Convention nationwide, a non-news television network has a very different message for kids who are viewing. They're saying, rather boldly, rather dramatically and I think appropriately, turn off the television. Nickelodeon has begun a let's just play campaign in which Nickelodeon is urging its audience to do just that. Nickelodeon plans to go off the air for three hours on Saturday, October 2.

During that time it will show a graphic saying it's time to go outside. Nickelodeon's president says kids aren't playing as much after school as they used to and the network wants to make sure kids know it's important and I think it's important that Nickelodeon made that kind of contribution.

Still ahead here tonight, the last Democrats in the White House make their pitch for the new Democratic team. Three leading journalists in the country join us with more on the convention and the Democratic Party and its candidates.

And American shrimpers say a glut of cheap imports is threatening to put them out of business -- the entire shrimp industry in this country.

We'll have those stories and much more still ahead here tonight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: We're going back to FleetCenter in Boston for more coverage of the Democratic National Convention. I'll be talking with three of the top political journalists in the country next. We want to turn to some of your thoughts. Many of you writing in about last night's kickoff of the convention.

Judith Arnold in Rochester, New York wrote to say, "I think presidential conventions are a waste of time and money when it has already been decided who is running. I would rather see that time and money spent on debates."

Allan McCutchen of Raleigh, North Carolina, "The most important issue for the upcoming election is the accuracy of the ballot. By now there are enough questionable events that our citizens should be very concerned about the accuracy of the upcoming election. It should be a requirement to produce a paper trail of every voting machine."

And Andrew in Enumclaw, Washington. "Lou, with the conventions in full swing, people are asking whether they're relevant anymore and why we have them. We have them because the balloon lobbyists have both parties by the throat."

And Dr. S. Von Knasick of New York, New York. "Lou, why not demand our politicians wear patches of their sponsors like NASCAR drivers so we as voters can see what powerful corporations and PACs are pulling the strings of a given candidate."

We love hearing your thoughts. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.

The Commerce Department will decide tomorrow whether to provide a little more relief to another American industry that's been devastated by cheap imports. Nearly 90 percent of our shrimp industry has been wiped out. Ninety percent of the shrimp consumed in this country is now imported. More American jobs have been lost, and the few remaining are in jeopardy. Ahead of tomorrow's decision we revisit the shrimpers of the Nancy Joy in the Gulf of Mexico with John Zarrella reporting.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Delong stares out over the waters of the Gulf of Mexico just killing time, waiting for the Gulf day to end so his day can begin. Delong captains the shrimp boat Nancy Joy. So far on this trip, there has been little joy. The shrimp have been elusive. One look at the catch in the test net and Delong knows it will be another tough night to go along with the tough times.

JOHN DELONG, NANCY JOY CAPTAIN: All fishermen are supposed to be optimists. But now it's really getting harder and harder to throw lines off because -- you know, why? Why? ZARRELLA: Shrimpers say they are sinking under the weight of imported farm raised shrimp, which account for 90 percent of the U.S. market. They have charged that half a dozen countries are dumping, selling shrimp below cost, making it impossible to get what they call a fair price for shrimp caught in U.S. waters. The Commerce Department agreeing with the shrimpers regarding China and Vietnam, has recommended tariffs on shrimp from those countries. A decision on four more countries is expected later this week.

TRAVIS LARKIN, SEAFOOD EXCHANGE: Restricting imported products by either reducing the amount that can come into the country or raising the price does nothing to increase the catch of the domestic fisherman. Really all that it does is raise the price to the consumer.

ZARRELLA: Importers say farm-raised shrimp are a more consistent quality available year round and not subject to the whims of nature. On the Nancy Joy, nature has not been kind this time; the haul is poor.

The net is filled with as many scorpion fish, flat fish and crabs as there are shrimp. Dolphins wait for a handout. Sharks, circling the boat, dine on the bottom fish thrown back in. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

The shrimpers say they have no problem with the competition that comes with free trade but say they say they want to be sure that free trade is also fair trade.

John Zarrella, CNN, on the Nancy Joy in the Gulf of Mexico.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: And obviously, U.S. trade policies at the center of the campaign in the upcoming election. I'll be talking with Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty and Roger Simon about that issue and others at the Democratic National Convention in just a moment.

And, Democrats trying to emphasize the positives of Senators Kerry and Edwards while trying to tone down their criticism of President Bush. I'll be talking with leading political columnist E.J. Dionne about whether that strategy is working.

And that is the world's most active volcano. It's putting on quite a show in Hawaii. We'll be showing you those extraordinary pictures in just a moment. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: I'm joined now from Boston, Ron Brownstein, National Political Correspondent the "L.A. Times," Karen Tumulty, National Political Correspondent, "Time Magazine," Roger Simon, Political Editor, "U.S. News and World Report" all joining us from the epicenter of the political moment there in Boston.

Karen, let me begin with you. What did you think of the performance last night?

KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME MAGAZINE": Well, I think Bill Clinton framed the argument about as well as anybody can. And it was, I think, the height of sort of the Bush bashing phase of the week, and now we're going to move into the, presumably, if we can believe what they're telling us, some more sort of positive uplifting, come-up-with-a-message phase of the week.

DOBBS: Roger, did Bill Clinton do so well that he is effectively upstaged Senator Kerry? Can Kerry match or exceed that performance?

ROGER SIMON, POLITICAL EDITOR, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT": I think those people who vetted Clinton's speech made sure of it. It was a good speech. It was vintage Clinton.

But like all Clinton's good speeches, you can't find six really strong quotes to pull out of it. A lot of what Bill Clinton does is his style, his personal warmth and his ability to connect with an audience. I think John Kerry's speech is going to have the strong, memorable lines that his speech writers have been working on for quite some time.

RON BROWNSTEIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "L.A. TIMES": Roger, I disagree with that. I think that Clinton last night -- the two things that were quite striking, one -- and really the most remarkable thing of the evening -- was Clinton himself echoing Jimmy Carter and, for that matter, Max Cleland, earlier today in raising the issue of President Bush's service in Vietnam.

Kerry went; Bush served in the National Guard: an extraordinary circumstance that the Democrats are raising that issue and even more extraordinary to have Clinton raise it. Secondly, I thought he crystallized their argument on National Security far more effectively than anything Kerry has done so far.

I mean, he came the closest to having a bumper sticker for their argument when he said, "Strength and wisdom are not competing values; they're not incompatible." And that was, I thought, a very powerful personalization of their argument and one that I would be surprised if Kerry does not pick up on himself as we go forward.

SIMON: Yes, but the question was whether this will overshadow Kerry's speech?

BROWNSTEIN: No, it does not.

SIMON: And if it does, it was a major error.

BROWNSTEIN: No, it does not. No. It never will. It never will.

TUMULTY: That, of course, is why they brought him out there on the first night to give a few days of breathing space there. By the way, a historical footnote, I found it very interesting that in essence Clinton admitted to being a draft dodger...

SIMON: Yes.

TUMULTY: ... last night as well.

DOBBS: He threw himself over the boat along with a couple of other folks, didn't he?

Senator Kerry commanded a boat in Vietnam with distinction, with valor. How important is that, Ron, in your judgment, to improving the Democrats' least image on national security? You've written that they appear wishy-washy on Iraq. How do you think that will play?

BROWNSTEIN: Clearly, it will help somewhat, Lou. But whether it helps as much as they hope, I think, is one of the biggest gambles of this campaign and certainly of this convention.

I think you see competing frames being established by the Bush campaign and the Kerry campaign for judging Kerry's fitness as commander in chief, which is obviously a critical hurdle in this campaign.

The Kerry people argue the judgments he made under fire in Vietnam 35 years ago -- they have his crew mates out there making this argument -- those judgments show that he has the steeliness to handle a crisis as commander in chief.

The Bush campaign is arguing that the real measure are the decisions he's made in his public life since, particularly in the Senate, in votes on intelligence and national security and, even more so, by not offering a clear-cut unequivocal message on Iraq.

And I think you will see these very competing frames that will be fought out not only this week but through the fall. And I think it will be an important part of the result of this election which one of those takes hold with the voters.

DOBBS: Roger, the voters are, of course, the target of everything that is emanating from Boston. Democrats say that they're going to be very positive. They're not going to attack the Bush administration further.

Is this campaign not -- this convention not only open to charges of being irrelevant to the process but also being just outright dull?

SIMON: Well, you have to be a bit of a political junkie to watch every minute of it. But, I wish, actually the networks would carry more of this convention. This is an important public service.

DOBBS: Which we're happy to provide here at CNN, and we hope they don't hear your clarion call.

SIMON: And congratulations to you. This is an important decision we're making here. We're picking a new or retaining the old president of the United States. And networks who bring us every lap of the Indianapolis 500 but can't bring us five minutes of the convention, I don't think are doing a service for the public.

DOBBS: Karen?

TUMULTY: Well, I'm not entirely sure this is a terrible allocation of resources. I mean, if you had been tuned in a minute ago you would have missed the retro moment of Peter, Paul and Mary singing "Blowin' in the Wind." But I do think that these big speeches at night do very much frame the argument, put the party on its path and they are important.

DOBBS: Tonight could be a very important night, Karen, because Teresa Heinz Kerry; her introduction to the voting public. You talked with Teresa Heinz Kerry. What do you expect tonight? What do you think the rest of us should be expecting? How important is this evening for her and for her husband?

TUMULTY: Well, I think, we're going to see her doing something that she almost never, ever, ever does, which is read from a script. Very rarely does she read from a prepared text. And certainly we have discovered earlier this week exactly why they want her both on time and very much scripted tonight. I think it's going to be very positive, it's going to stress her own story, her own immigrant story coming to this country.

And, you know, I think that the judgment at this point is for, among undecided voters whether this woman is in fact a breath of fresh air, you know, a badly needed dose of spontaneity to her often staid husband or whether she's a loose cannon.

DOBBS: Loose cannon, or however you want to style it; let me ask this question of you, Ron and Roger first. I have to say that I found absolutely nothing wrong with Teresa Heinz Kerry saying to a reporter who had offended her or annoyed her, something that was rather succinct, direct and honest. Roger?

SIMON: I agree. And, in fact, he wasn't even reporter, he was an editorial writer. So, you know, he doesn't even get that status.

No, that was refreshing. And to show you how bored the media is, we made it into a huge story. Teresa Heinz Kerry is a different kind of presidential or potential presidential spouse. She doesn't see her role in life as being a spouse.

She's the head of a billion dollar foundation. She makes important decisions every day, and she doesn't define herself as being married to John Kerry.

DOBBS: Is that potentially a problem for this candidate, Ron?

BROWNSTEIN: You know, Lou, I don't think so. I think we have to keep our eye on the ball here. I mean, this is a consequential election for Americans. Between Iraq, particularly the war on terror and the economy, people see big stakes in this election. I wouldn't be surprised if turnout goes up.

I think ultimately voting for president is a very personalized choice. All of these things, the keynote speech tonight, Teresa Heinz Kerry's appearance, John Edwards' appearance, all of them are interesting.

But in the end, it is going to be the judgment made about John Kerry and George Bush that drive this election and, really, the way the conventions work now, they build up to that speech Thursday night. He has to deliver something that the American people feel confidence in him at the end of and that is a challenge. No one else can do that for him.

DOBBS: Karen, one last question, one last answer if you would, quickly. And that is: President Bush is still ahead in the polls. What's it going to take?

TUMULTY: Well, I think the first hurdle that John Kerry is going to have to clear with that speech is the likability hurdle just to get people in a frame of mind where they can actually imagine having this guy in their living rooms for four to eight years.

DOBBS: Karen, Roger, Ron, we thank you all three of you there at the Fleet Center. Continue to have fun, and we look forward to more substantive information moving from you to us.

That brings to us the subject of our poll tonight. Did you watch more than 30 minutes of last night's Democratic Convention? Cast your answer at CNN.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming up later.

Still ahead here: "Washington Post" Columnist E.J. Dionne, his assessment of the convention so far and what the Democrats need to do.

A new report from the Federal Reserve says, "A belief in hell is good for prosperity." This was a Federal Reserve-sponsored conclusion. We'll tell you all about that and a great deal more. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Thousands of people have been traveling to Hawaii's big island to see a remarkable sight from the world's most active volcano: lava again flowing down Mount Kilauea -- I have got to say that wrong: Kilauea. Anyone want to tell me how to pronounce that? Ki-la-ue-a. That's it. Thank you very much -- and into the ocean, spawning a cloud of steam into the air.

Each lava flow increases actually the size of the island. The lava has formed more than 500 acres of new land in just two decades. Amazing pictures; amazing pronunciation as well. My apologies.

A long awaited rally today on Wall Street. No apologies required today. The Dow up 123 points, the NASDAQ up 30, the S&P up almost 11.

Christine Romans, tell us all about it.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's been weeks of selling, so this is the Dow's best rally now, in two months. The S&P and the NASDAQ snapped back from its lowest prices all year. A report, Lou, showed consumer confidence at the highest in two years, another strong housing report and retail gas prices fell two cents in the latest week.

But oil prices have been steadily moving higher: today, up another percent in just below $42. Lou, all the things I have mentioned are traditional ways to measure the economy. How's this one for a not so traditional economic indicator: fear of hell.

The St. Louis Fed has published an economic essay titled "The Fear of Hell Might Fire Up the Economy." Fed economists say countries with a wide belief in hell have less corruption and more prosperity; 71 percent of Americans, according to the St. Louis Fed, believe in hell and have the highest per capita income in the world.

Look at Ireland: 53 percent believe, Canada: 42 percent, Japan: 32 percent. The report also quotes Adam Smith, who said that in societies where there is a widespread belief in God, the values of honesty and integrity are more prevalent.

I have never heard of hell as an economic indicator, but from the St. Louis Fed...

DOBBS: What in the world prompted the St. Louis Fed to make this causal connection?

ROMANS: Looking for nontraditional ways. We know about productivity, we know about GVP. Two of the Feds economists; an economist there and a senior economist...

DOBBS: Can we put that up again? Can we put up that graphic very quickly?

ROMANS: Now it doesn't explain Turkey: 85 percent fear of hell there.

DOBBS: U.S., Ireland, Canada, Japan. If one looks at most of the Middle Eastern countries, with the exception, obviously of the oil-rich states -- if we look at South America, in which there is a broad religious base among the population that certainly doesn't hold. So I think the St. Louis Fed is out of its mind.

ROMANS: I don't know what possessed them, Lou.

DOBBS: Well, that's a -- I think I do, but I won't share that tonight. Christine, thank you.

DOBBS: Still ahead here: more from the Democratic Convention in Boston. I'll be talking with leading political columnist E.J. Dionne about whether the Democratic strategy will work. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: At the Democratic Convention, party leaders are pushing for a more positive message, we're told, but my guest tonight says former Presidents Clinton and Carter and Vice President Gore all were critical of President Bush in their speeches last night.

Even though Republicans don't like the criticism, it's all part of the deal. Joining me now, E.J. Dionne, Political Columnist for the "Washington Post." Good to have you here.

E.J. DIONNE, POLITICAL COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON POST": Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Are the Democrats succeeding in their attempt to identify what a Democrat is at this moment in history, and who Senator Kerry is?

DIONNE: Well, on the first, I think Bill Clinton's speech last night was a really sophisticated political speech. It sounded very smooth, but he was making an argument. He basically said that Republicans are on the side of wealthy people like me, Bill Clinton said.

It was very funny when he said, "You know, the Republicans were kind of mean to me when I was President. I never thought they'd treat me so well." Then he talked about all the tax cuts he, as a now rich person, has gotten and contrasted that with a lot of programs.

The other point he made for the party that I think was very interesting is, he said, "The Republicans have to divide America. We don't. Democrats don't." And his point was that the Democrats actually, on a lot of issues, health care, education, lifting up the poor, have very broad support in the country and they can just go out and make their case. Now, for a lot of Republicans that's not convincing. But I think there may be moderate Republicans and independents who responded.

As for Kerry, I think the most powerful case for him last night was made by the Reverend David Alston, who shared time on that swiftboat with Kerry, is a powerful preacher. That's kind of a core message they're trying to get out.

DOBBS: E.J., as we look at the reality of this, the principle part of this tax cut came with support of the Democratic Party in 2001. When we look at education, it was a bipartisan effort. The criticisms are rather muted at the margin. Kerry has still not defined himself on Iraq.

There are a lot of things that are turning also President Bush's way from the perspective of Senator Kerry. The economy is adding jobs, not nearly at the rate it should. The economic growth is remarkable. I mean, how much of this is lasting? How much of it is substantive? How much of it, in your mind, would be determinate come November?

DIONNE: Well, that's a good question. I think on the tax cut the fact is most Democrats and, notably John Kerry and John Edwards voted against the tax cut. That was a Republican plan even though some Democrats did vote for it, fewer voted for the second Bush tax cut.

On Iraq, it's complicated because Democrats are walking this very difficult line. What they really want to say is -- and Al Gore said it explicitly. He had been against the war but he didn't give an anti-war speech last night. He gave an anti-Bush speech. He said, "Whether you're for or against the war, the administration made a mess of this." And that's the kind of case they're wanting to make.

I think you're also going to hear a kind of implication on Iraq that it's Bush, not Kerry, who's the flip flopper because it's Bush who is now trying to get help from the international community. And Kerry is going to argue, "I'm in a better position to get help."

The trick is that Kerry has to make that case and still look strong. You can't look around this convention hall without seeing the word "strong" on the boards here. And the question -- I think Clinton did a fairly good job of saying, "You can be strong and wise." That was his formulation. But that is what they got to get out of here.

DOBBS: And you also wrote in your column talking about Kerry Democrats. Have you come to a conclusion yet about what is a Kerry Democrat?

DIONNE: Well, I think it's difficult. The column was arguing we kind of have a sense of what a Clinton Democrat is and I talked about Barack Obama, whom I really believe deserves all this billing as a rising star in the party. He's an exceptional person. I think some day there may be Obama Democrats.

There aren't that many people who yet identify themselves with Kerry Democrats. Right now anti-Bush Democrats decided John Kerry was the best guy to carry their banner. I think if we create Kerry Democrats, if Kerry creates them, it's his job to create them, they'll be created because he creates some link between this special moment after 9/11. The idea that Americans came into solidarity with each other that day and makes a broader argument that this is not just about terror or foreign policy but about how we treat each other at home.

As yet, there are a lot of people here who are rooting for John Kerry as a baseball player. They're not sure he can hit a home run on Thursday, but they are sure hoping that he will.

DOBBS: Well, we're going to turn now, E.J., to somebody that they are also hoping will hit a home run, and that is Senator Kerry's wife. We thank you for being here and we look forward to talking to you frequently in the days ahead.

DIONNE: Thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: Taking a look at some of your thoughts on Teresa Heinz Kerry, telling a journalist to, quote unquote, "Shove it."

June Wood in Richmond, Virginia: "When I heard Teresa Kerry's comment, it put a smile on my face throughout the day. It is so refreshing that there is a potential first lady who is herself and is going to remain herself."

Kathleen Hager, in New York, New York: "Mrs. Kerry's response to a harassing reporter doesn't hold a candle to what Vice President Cheney said to Senator Leahy."

And Tootsie, in Cloverdale, Indiana: "I think Teresa Kerry was right on! Go gal go! She should tell Ralph Nader the same thing!"

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to LouDobbs@cnn.com. Coming up: the results of our poll. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now, the results of tonight's poll and the executive suites at CNN, I'm sure, are cheering just a loud commotion there. Eighty-two percent of you say you watched more than 30 minutes of last night's Democratic Convention; 18 percent say you did not.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Former Assistant Secretary of State, Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, joins us live from the Democratic National Convention, "Washington Post" columnist E.J. Dionne and our panel of top political journalists return. We hope you will, as well.

And in our face-off tomorrow, opposing views on which candidate, Kerry or Bush, would make the best president. For all of us here, good night from New York.

"Anderson Cooper 360" is next.

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