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Search for Lori Hacking Continues

Aired July 30, 2004 - 21:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, GUEST HOST: Tonight, what has happened to mother- to-be, Lori Hacking. The 27-year-old still missing for nearly two weeks now. Police are working round the clock despite the shocking web of lies woven by her own husband Mark Hacking. He's the only person of interest police have named.

With us with all the latest, CNN reporter Kimberly Osias. On the scene in Salt Lake City two of Lori Hacking's closest friends, Holly Thomas and Rebecca Carroll, speaking out. Detective Dwayne Baird of the Salt Lake City Police Department. Greg Skordas, former deputy district attorney for Salt Lake City, also attorney for Elizabeth Smart. Plus, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig. And renowned forensic psychologist Dr. Henry Lee. They're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.


GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. And I want to thank you for being with us.

As you all know by now, still no results in the search for 27- year-old mother-to-be Lori Hacking. She went missing, and now a cloud of suspicion is swirling around her husband.

Let's go to CNN reporter on the scene in Salt Lake City, Kimberly Osias. Kimberley, what's the latest?

KIMBERLEY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you that family and friends of Lori Hacking are still holding out hope tonight that she is, in fact, alive. Today, they asked for a day of prayer and fasting.

Investigators have been focusing their efforts on an area landfill. They're focusing in an area about one to two acres wide. And depth, we are talking about 25 to 40 feet. A pretty big area. And it's tedious work. It's going to take some time.

They're not really exactly sure what they're looking for, if it's a lot of little pieces of evidence, or one big piece of evidence.

In talking about time line, there's a new little wrinkle. Mark Hacking reported that his wife went missing on Monday morning, that she was last scene going for a jog in the Memory Park Grove Area. Well, police now say they don't even think she was ever there on Monday. They think perhaps maybe she could have last been seen on Sunday evening by friends.

Now for his part, Mark Hacking remains here at the University of Utah Medical Center on a psychiatric ward. There is an officer outside that ward. We're told that's standard operating procedure, not at all connected with the investigation.

Now if they were to make an arrest, Nancy, it wouldn't have any bearing, it wouldn't insulate him, the fact that he is in this psychiatric ward.

GRACE: You know, that's very interesting. Detective Dwayne Baird is with us with the Salt Lake City Police Department. You know, at a hospital, detective, I've never been familiar with police standing outside the door. That suggests to me that an arrest is imminent.

DET. DWAYNE BAIRD, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Not necessarily, Nancy, not necessarily in this case. Simply because the people that are in that ward may be a danger to themselves or others, and so they would be, perhaps under guard, if you would, even though they're in a locked facility. It would not be unusual that we would have officers there to make sure that they protected the lives of everyone involved.

GRACE: OK. You know what? What we don't know -- Detective Dwayne Baird cannot comment on the evidence in this case, if there ever is a trial, if it ever does involve Mark Hacking, he's got to be very circumspect. Here in the studio with me, Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Robi, you've been on plenty of psych wards.


GRACE: Treating. Treating. I've met -- and I've been on plenty of psych wards, too. I've never seen police guarding the door, maybe a hospital officer, a warden of sorts. But I've never seen the city police guarding the door.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: What does that suggest to you?

LUDWIG: That they're afraid that he could try to escape, that's what it says to me. Because I've been on many psych wards. And again I haven't seen that. So, either they're afraid he's going to try to get away or that he's in danger in some way. But it sounds like they're trying to protect the case in some regard. And this is the way they're doing it.

GRACE: Detective Baird, is he involuntarily committed, or did he go there on his own volition?

BAIRD: My understanding is that he's there on his own volition. He was not committed by us in the police department. So, you'd have to get the details from the family as you look at this. But he is not there from our perspective as someone that we asked or ordered to be there. GRACE: Detective, I understand the focus is on a land field as we speak. That there are actually back hoes out there sifting through one to two acres of landfill. What has led police to a landfill?

BAIRD: We have a lead that we've been following up on since last Wednesday. Where we have gone out there to search this landfill. Now we're using cadaver dogs based on that lead. That's not necessarily to say that we're looking for a body at this point, but it's to say that we are looking for evidence that may related in some way to the human body, and human body function systems, if you will.

However, understanding that we've searched that area just briefly last Wednesday, we had to come back on Monday night and we wanted to do so because of the heat of the day in Salt Lake City is just too much for our dogs and the searchers to be out in among that refuse, if you will.

And we waited until after dark to do it. It's much cooler, about 20 to 40 degrees cooler here at night. With temperatures during the day reaching nearly 100 degrees.

GRACE: You are seeing a shot of the refuse, the landfill that police are, they're literally working this case around the clock. Right now, by hand, with cadaver dogs, back hoes, they are searching a landfill. As Kimberly Osias told us one to two acres.

How deep is it, Kimberly? How deep are they looking?

OSIAS: We were out there, Nancy, yesterday, and it is pretty deep. I'm told between 25 and 40 feet. And you know, I was talking to the landfill manager. He said to me he's been there for a long time, over a deck decade. He has never had a search quite like this, of this magnitude. He said it's pretty intense.

GRACE: Kimberly, I know the detective cannot comment on facts, specific facts surrounding the case, it could jeopardize a possible future jury trial. But do you know, Kimberly, about the tip he is referring to that came in on Wednesday?

OSIAS: Well, I can tell you, Nancy, there's been so much speculation in this case, and a lot of speculation has been to a neighbor that reportedly had maggots in his trash bin. He said that there was some brown liquid in there.

Well, you know, kind of interesting, Nancy, thing is that you think through this. OK. Trash day in that area is on Monday. He brought his trash out Sunday night. He said that it was fine. Smelled fine. Comes in Monday night and says there was a horrible stench, there were all these maggots covered over. His mom told him to go out and bury the maggots in the backyard. But then he doesn't call police until Thursday? I mean, come on. I don't think that is the tip that they are acting on. I mean, something's rotten in Denmark there. And that's the tip I've heard everybody talking about.

GRACE: I can tell you if I looked in the trash can and saw maggots and brown liquid I would have to call 911 immediately. I'm going to go...

OSIAS: Me, too.

GRACE: Let me go to Holly Thomas. Holly you're an incredibly close friend of Lori. I know you have not given up hope that Lori is still alive. It's got to be killing you when you hear about searches and a landfill with backhoes. How are you dealing with that?

HOLLY THOMAS, FRIEND OF LORI HACKING: You know, like you said, there's still that hope that maybe she's just somewhere and she's going to come home and say hey, were you guys looking for me? I mean that's pretty much how I'm dealing with it right now.

On the other hand, I'm being realistic about it and trying to, you know, accept that maybe she's not going to come home, just hoping for the best as far as closure.

GRACE: Well, I know, Holly that you've known Lori a long time. And I know you will not do anything to jeopardize this investigation. But we all know, the world knows now, this guy was not going to medical school. He hadn't even graduated from undergrad. How the heck did he pull off this double life for all these years, making everybody believe he was studying to go to med school?

THOMAS: You know, that's something that we've been asking ourselves over and over and over, because Lori is a very, very smart person. She's a very thorough and methodical person. And it's just kind of impossible to believe that he could pull this over on her.

GRACE: But you believed it, too. Why did you believe it?

THOMAS: You know, whenever I talked to him we would talk about school. I work in the medical field. We would talk about medical things. And he seemed to know what he was talking about. I mean, there was no reason to doubt him. There was no reason to even think that about someone in the first place when you have no history of deception.

GRACE: Yes. Well, it's interesting that you say that.

Let me go to Rebecca Carroll, another dear friend of Lori Hacking's. Rebecca, interesting that she mentioned no history of deception. Did you know of any history of deception or any history of mental illness on Mark Hacking's part?

REBECCA CARROLL, LORI HACKING'S FRIEND: No, we didn't know of a history of deception. So, now it's come to light that there was a history of deception. But we didn't know about that and so we had no reason to doubt that he was in school.

It's not -- that's not something you know, when someone tells you they're going to school, you assume they are. You know, you don't usually have a reason to believe that's not true.

GRACE: When we come back, we are going to be speaking with world renowned forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee. Stay with us. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT DUNAWAY, HACKING FAMILY SPOKESMAN: It's day eight. We understand what that means. We know that the -- what the statistics are for that.

Is the family still hopeful? Obviously. Would we love to have a happy ending to this story? Of course we would. Do we know that there are other possibilities? Yes, we understand that, as well, and we're prepared for that, as well.



GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV. I want to thank you for being with us. As you know by now, still no sign of 27-year-old mother-to-be Lori Hacking. The Salt Lake City Police Department has literally been working round the clock. And we have just learned from CNN's Kimberly Osias that there are actually police at the psychiatric ward where Mark Hacking has admitted himself.

I want to go to a world renowned forensic scientist. With us tonight, Dr. Henry Lee. Doctor, thank you for being with us.

Doctor, I know the detective cannot comment on the evidence. I've been there. A public comment on the evidence can skew a jury pool. It can skew a venue. There can be a venue change if there ever is a trial. So I understand...


GRACE: Yes, yes, and I want to go back to the detective shortly about a lot of erroneous reports that are floating around in the media. But Dr. Henry Lee, it can't be good that they are using cadaver dogs at a landfill, all right? There's only one way to explain that, doctor.

LEE: Yes. Well, it's kind of one of a massive (ph) search. In my career, I pick up a lot of landfill, we search a lot of area. It's a difficult job, because it's a large area. So you have to use a logic intelligent (ph) analysis, try to sort of sort it out, what's the most the recent deposit? Because don't forget, July 19, now July 30 now. So there are a lot of material probably in there.

So, what they should do is a use (UNINTELLIGIBLE) through that quickly, and the dogs just, you know, cadaver dog looks for human body. But meanwhile, they should look at bloody clothing, maybe carpet, maybe bedding, and of course we have a missing mattress. There are systematical way you can search, and when I look at the clips, they use a backhoe. And they should either put in a truck to a more sort of a shaded place, sort it out, or just put (UNINTELLIGIBLE), let the stuff go through, have a team of detective, going through those debris, much easier, quicker way. GRACE: Detective Dwayne Baird is with us. Detective, as a former prosecutor, I've searched dumpsters. I've been along on the searches of dumpsters. But never a landfill of this enormity. Physically, how do you go about searching something two acres wide, and many feet deep? How do you do that?

BAIRD: Well, it's a good question, Nancy. It's an arduous process, to say the least. But understand that we are not looking through that entire landfill. We are looking at a couple of acres. We are looking at about 25 to 45 feet deep in some sections of this. However, I must say that we are looking through the area that we believe is, and we're told by the people of the landfill, that was deposited there from Monday's trash. That would be Monday, July 19. And only that day. We are not looking through any other days.

And so, we have to do that meticulously. But it does take time. However, it's not impossible. And we'll be able to do it over time. It may take more than just a few days, or even a few weeks. We've looked at the possibility of this taking a few months. If that's the case, we're prepared to do it.

GRACE: Detective, Friday night you were on LARRY KING LIVE, and we saw a box spring, Dr. Henry Lee was with us, we saw a box spring coming out of the Hacking apartment. And it very clearly, of course, to our eyes, was bloody. I want to know, of course, which is not a comment on the evidence, whether their actual bed has been found.

BAIRD: Well, I can't discuss that specific -- that much in specifics as far as the actual bed goes. However, I will discuss that box spring, simply because I've had the opportunity to look at the tape and look at what everyone else has looked at.

And from my understanding is, the red stain, or the orange- reddish stain that you see is actually part of the packing material that we used in order to take it out of the house. In other words, we put it in a plastic bag and we used crime scene tape, and it's evidence-type tape that can't be removed easily, and that's what we believe you see on there. It is not what we think is a stain.

GRACE: Yeah. Well, I know you've just made -- I know you've just made a lot of people rest a little easier anyway. That box spring came out, a lot of people's hearts just dropped, thinking that they were seeing blood. Detective, you wanted me to ask you specifically about erroneous reports that have come out in the media, for you to clarify. Please do.

BAIRD: Certainly. We've had lots of erroneous reports this week. But most notably on another national news network, we've had erroneous reports that came out about evidence and the testing of evidence and so on, that, in fact, were not true. And we -- the results of that testing is not back. And so, we've had to dispute those things.

I want to say publicly now that our local media here in Utah, as well as other national organizations, have not bought into that sensationalism, if you will, and journalistic practices where they would speak about these things without basis in fact.

I'm the information officer for the Salt Lake City Police Department. There is no other information that would be coming out of that police department in dealing with this case. And so, erroneous leads and so on, or things that other organizations want to look at are, in fact, not true. And there have been some of those today. And I want to commend our local people, our local media folks that do not jump all over that and say oh, the police aren't telling us the truth. When, in fact, as necessary, we will release information to the media after we've talked to the family, of course.

GRACE: Detective, are you saying you don't have a DNA result yet?

BAIRD: I'm saying that we don't have tests back from the lab.


BAIRD: Concerning the evidence in this case. Now, as far as the specifics go, I'm not at liberty to tell you that.

GRACE: Dr. Henry Lee, how fast can you do a turnaround on DNA, for instance on an r-felt (ph) test?

LEE: Well, it depends on how fresh the blood sample. If you have a fresh blood sample, usually we can do that. A fast test probably two days. Maybe three, four days you can -- should get some result.

GRACE: Yeah, I recall...

LEE: I'm glad to hear the detective say that mattress is just a packing material. It's not the...

GRACE: Yeah, I'm glad to hear that, too.

LEE: ... blood stain.

GRACE: It was my understanding from getting DNA back, I could get it back in about three days turnaround if I went for a less conclusive test, just to get a result.

Very quickly to Greg Skordas. Greg, he has been named, I'm referring to Mark Hacking, Lori's Husband, as a person of interest. Specifically, police have been very careful to say he's not a suspect, he's a person of interest. But, he's the only person of interest so far. What does that say to you?

GREG SKORDAS, FRM. SALT LAKE COUNTY DEPUTY D.A.: Well, it tells me two things. One, the fact that he's the only person of interest means that he is the closest thing we have now to a suspect.

And two, the reason that they don't want to name him now as a suspect is, first, that they don't have a victim yet. Lori may very well be alive, although that seems unlikely. Second, once they name him a suspect they immediate to treat him a little differently and I suppose that the local public here will want an arrest once they have someone who they identify as a suspect.

If he's a person of interest it takes a little heat off the police. It allows them to complete their investigation, which they seem to be doing at pretty good vigor right now. And it allows the public to kind of rest at ease that they've got their sights on someone, but they're still working the case and they're going to treat it fairly and wait until they have all the evidence put together before they name him as a suspect.

GRACE: Greg Skordas, beautifully put. Once somebody is named as an official suspect, all type of constitutional rights are triggered, and he would be treated so much differently, Greg. You're dead on.

When we come back, two of Lori Hacking's closest friends describe a very happy, almost fairy tale marriage. And then, Dr. Robi Ludwig will explain how someone can fabricate and maintain a lie for years. Stay with us.


TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Co-workers of Lori Hacking have told police about a phone call that caused her to leave her bank job crying the Friday before she was reported missing. But friends who released photos taken that night say Lori and Mark seemed happy at a going-away party held in their honor.



GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. And I want to thank you for being with us.

As you know, no result for the manhunt for Lori Hacking. The 27- year-old mom-to-be has been missing for days now. Still no result.

I want to go to two of her very dearest friends. They're with us tonight, Holly Thomas and Rebecca Carroll.

Holly, I heard Lori's mother on Friday night describing the marriage. And she described an evening when Lori came home, and Mark had surprised her with this beautiful meal, and put out a table cloth and a candle just to surprise her. I'm sure women all over America basically cried, because it sounded so sweet and so caring and romantic. Holly, what did you see on the outside looking in at the marriage?

THOMAS: On the outside, I saw exactly what everyone's been saying, that everything was perfect. I mean, obviously there were things that we didn't know. And obviously no marriage is perfect. But Lori never had anything but praise for him and good things to say about him. GRACE: You know that's interesting. Rebecca, when Lori would praise Mark Hacking and say good things about him, what would they be about?

CARROLL: We just talked a lot about your basic things. We just talked about just life. They talk about school, and their jobs, and they'd go on trips.

And they just always seemed like they tried to make time for each other, because their schedules were so different. And they made sure that they did things together. And you know on the nights that they did both have off, I remember when we wanted to get together and she said, we have these two nights and made sure that they spent that time together, because they had so little.

And just I remember her -- us telling each other one time how grateful we were to have husbands that loved us. And she just always seemed happy.

GRACE: Kimberly Osias, you were telling me early about when it was time for his undergrad graduation how he managed to weasel out of that, Kimberly?

OSIAS: ...again speaks to sort of this duplicity. He actually sent out invitations we were told by Paul Soares, that he actually -- he sent out invitations, he got a cap and gown, got all ready and then they took pictures, people flew in, and then he said he was sick. You know, so he definitely was an intricate web of lies as all this started to unravel, Nancy. That takes some doing.

GRACE: Yes. She was telling me earlier Dr. Robi that when it came time for the graduation, he actually had a cap and gown and the family took photos of him. Their own private graduation photos?

LUDWIG: This guy is good.

GRACE: How the heck do you keep up a lie like that for that long?

LUDWIG: Well, with con artists they're psychological illusionists. So, they basically know what people want to hear. They sense it and they can look you straight in the eye and tell you, I'm in medical school. And they have an amazing ability to remember lies.

So basically, when you are in the presence of somebody who operates that way, you're no longer in control, they are in control.

And the other piece here that I think is interesting is, perhaps Lori and Mark were very happy as long as the lie was intact. Because the lie helped him to feel successful and like a have, and like his brothers. And as soon as that was snatched away from him, then it all fell apart.

Then he felt like a loser, then he felt angry, then he felt murderous. And he might have even thought that Lori knew he was lying, was going along with it, or should have gone along with it. And the moment she didn't, then she was like everybody else in his life. She would only love him if he was successful.

GRACE: Wow. An incredible...

OSIAS: Nancy?


OSIAS: I was just going to say, I think the family has spoken about that. That he felt a lot of psychological pressure to succeed. I mean this is a super successful family. They've got an engineer. The father is a physician. There's another brother that's a physician. I actually spoke to him about that. You know, there are seven kids in all. So that's got to be daunting.

GRACE: Yes. But this incredible, elaborate, intricate set of lies that he maintained for years. But hey, people lie about their college degree and their jobs every day. That's why we have a little thing called transcripts. But that doesn't make him a killer. Stay with us.


THELMA SOARES, LORI HACKING'S MOTHER: We love Mark as if he were our own son, and the Hackings love Lori as if she were their own daughter. If anything this tragedy has brought us closer together.



GRACE: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. I want to thank you for being with us.

I want to introduce an all-star panel tonight. With us in Salt Lake City, CNN reporter Kimberly Osias. Also with us, two very close friends of Lori Hacking, Holly Thomas and Rebecca Carroll. Detective Dwayne Baird from the Salt Lake City Police. Greg Skordas, eight years in Salt Lake City County Attorney's Office, and the attorney for Elizabeth Smart. Psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig, and world renowned forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee.

Let me go to you, Detective Baird, where exactly is that police officer at the psychiatric unit tonight? Is he outside Hacking's door?

BAIRD: You know, I don't know that it's one of ours from Salt Lake City Police. The University of Utah has their own police department, and it may be one of theirs, and that may not be unusual. I don't think it would be outside his room, necessarily. But it may be outside the unit there.

GRACE: Detective, is Hacking free to leave whenever he wants to?

BAIRD: You know, I'm not certain what his status is there. He has been there now for more than a week and a half. And I'm not certain whether he is able to or not. If he is, that would be something that we would want to look into very closely.

GRACE: Detective, there have been rumors swirling that an arrest is imminent. Can you comment?

BAIRD: I won't comment on that speculation, simply because people are saying, well, if there's an arrest that's imminent, then there must be the ability to do so right away, and why aren't we doing that. We're going to make sure that we cover everything in this case, as it comes available. Whether it's evidentiary, whether it's the testing, the forensics, and those kinds of things, the interviews, all that we have to put together to base a prosecution. And until we are able to do that and say that we can have it complete, we're not going to make an arrest and we won't speculate that way.

GRACE: CNN reporter Kimberly Osias there at the scene. Kimberly, what's the holdup with the DNA testing?

OSIAS: You know, a couple of things, Nancy. I want to point out that, you know, obviously we are all going to harken back to Elizabeth Smart. I mean, police do not want to mistag somebody. So they've certainly learned, and they are going to take their time.

And one thing that we have learned is that Lori Hacking was adopted. So they don't have a control with which to test against. They don't have -- immediately have parents or siblings to go to. So it's going to take a lot longer.

GRACE: Well, what I don't understand, Greg Skordas, and maybe you can explain this, to do a DNA match they would need something from the home, such as hair from her hair brush, or some other DNA matter in the home, right, Greg?

SKORDAS: Yeah. And that would be easy to find. It would be all over the house. There would be perhaps clippings from her hair. If she's ever cut herself, shaving her legs or something like that, blood, maybe even just droplets somewhere. But there's got to be in that house her DNA, saliva, you can even get DNA from that, virtually anywhere. So, I don't know what's holding up our state crime lab. They're actually a pretty competent unit. But I can tell you this, that this case is going to be a top priority with that unit. And two or three days to get a DNA sample is probably plenty.

GRACE: Dr. Lee?

LEE: Yeah. If she is five months pregnant, I'm sure she visit the hospital or her physician. They must have a blood test in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of her blood or for other purpose.

GRACE: It's five weeks. Dr. Lee, it's five weeks.

LEE: Yeah, but she will most likely -- well, how did she know she is pregnant? So they should check the hospital record. By the way, the hair will not give you nuclear DNA unless you have root. Some cutting of hair only can do mitochondrial DNA. Mitochondrial DNA is maternally linked, all the sister, sibling, everybody have the same type. Toothbrush is a much better choice. Or something which contains of cheek (ph) cells or some clothing, maybe can get some nuclear DNA.

GRACE: That's a really good point, Dr. Lee.

Kimberly Osias, unless there is a root attached to the hair, you don't get nuclear DNA. What can you tell me, Kimberly, and Detective, I know you can't comment on this, so I'm not even going to ask you, what can you tell me, you're on the ground there, regarding any blood that has been found? Or at least tested for in the apartment?

OSIAS: Well, I can say there have been a lot of speculations about small pieces on the wall, large pieces of blood on the wall, that they've used luminol, all that is speculative. And what I can tell you that we have seen small items being removed from the home. Scissors, hair brushes, that sort of thing. They've collected boxes of items. So that I can share with you for sure.

GRACE: Holly Thomas, a dear friend of Lori Hacking, I know that just recently Mark Hacking's family has begun to describe an incident where he fell from a roof, that he was apparently repairing a roof, and hit his head, and they are now saying that he was having some type of seizures at some juncture in his life. Holly, are you familiar with that incident? Do you know anything about any incidents of mental problems up until now?

THOMAS: I've never heard anything about that. I hadn't heard anything from Lori. And I don't know anything about his mental history.

GRACE: How long have you known Lori?

THOMAS: Since seventh grade.

GRACE: Oh, well, she met Mark Hacking in high school, right?

THOMAS: Yes, she did.

GRACE: High school sweethearts.


GRACE: At a bonfire?


GRACE: Something like that?

THOMAS: They were camping.

GRACE: And Rebecca Carroll, you're also a dear, dear friend of Lori Hacking's. I've watched the two of you in your pleas to the public for information. Had you heard about this incident of him falling off the roof, and having seizures in the past?

CARROLL: No. This is the first time I've heard of that. I've never heard that story. GRACE: Robi, do you think there's any possibility that this naked run through the motel parking lot -- hey, Detective, was he checked in to the motel, by the way? Or is he just running naked through the parking lot?

BAIRD: You know, that's some of the evidence in this case, in the sense that it was a call that we had to that hotel, and it was a disturbance call. We immediately recognized that it wasn't part of what we would do criminally, so we called medical personnel to make sure that they were on scene to evaluate this individual. And we then turned it over to them.

GRACE: Was he checked in?

BAIRD: Because of laws -- I can't tell you that specifically.

GRACE: Well, OK. Let's take it from him being checked in. Dr. Robi Ludwig, that would suggest to me he had the wherewithal to check into a motel. OK, say, he's not checked in. Running through the parking lot, buck naked. The guy is a psychology student. He works at a psych ward. If somebody...

LUDWIG: He's falsified his credentials.

GRACE: ... told you you had to act crazy to save your own skin, what would you do?

LUDWIG: Well, I think being naked and running around is a good way.

GRACE: With your sandals.

LUDWIG: Well, you know, whatever works. But absolutely. I mean, that is something that can get you checked in, because it clearly reflects that you're not in your right state of mind. That either he actually did become psychotic, that's one possibility. The other possibility is this man lied about everything in his life. And why wouldn't he lie to get himself hospitalized so that he could begin to protect himself? He could even say he's suicidal. That would keep you in a hospital. I can tell you that.

GRACE: And back to you, Greg Skordas, do you see the beginnings of an insanity defense? I mean, we know that morning the guy was out buying a mattress with a credit card, strapping it to the top of the car and driving home, totally in control of his faculties, and suddenly that evening he's running through the parking lot naked.

SKORDAS: Well, if it is the beginnings of an insanity defense as you know, Nancy, it's a pretty weak beginning. Because our law does not excuse the type of conduct that occurred here simply because somebody's having delusions that they're running around, that they're upset, that they can't deal with the situation. I mean, this man, if he committed this crime, and we have to presume he did at this point, has a history of pathological lies, of deceiving his entire family, of deceiving his wife over a period of years, of planning a murder to the point where he actually discarded a body, discarded a mattress, purchased a new mattress, planted a car up by a jogging scene, and then sort of went off that night.

Now, that's not the acts of an insane man. That's an act of a monster, if, in fact, this is the person that committed the crime.

GRACE: I've got a major league panel sifting through all the evidence that we know so far in the disappearance of Lori Hacking, including two of her dearest friends. And now we want to include you. We are taking your calls. Stay with us.


GRACE: Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls. As you know, as of tonight, the search is still on for 27-year-old mother-to-be Lori Hacking out of Salt Lake City. Let's go to the phones. Elk River, Minnesota, you are on LARRY KING.

CALLER: Thank you. I'd like to direct this question to Dr. Ludwig. If Lori and Mark had moved to North Carolina, do you think he had some type of long-term plan for a resolution of all these lies? Or would he have continued this charade and pretended he was going to medical school? Thank you.

LUDWIG: Yeah, that is such an interesting question. And one wonders, what would he do when he got to North Carolina? It sounds like he would have continued on with the lie, that this lie was very important to him. Either he had some type of high-functioning delusion where he believed it to be true, although I highly doubt it, because he said once he got caught he was relieved that he didn't have to maintain this lie. But it sounds like he just would have gone along like many pathological liars. And when they fall hard, they really fall hard.

GRACE: Holly Thomas, what type of doctor did he claim he wanted to be?

THOMAS: All I know that he was going to go into psychology. That's what he told us.

GRACE: OK. Let's go to Middleton, New Jersey. Middleton, New Jersey, you're on LARRY KING.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I think you're great.

GRACE: Thank you.

CALLER: How did he get her car to the park without anyone seeing him if they think she never made it there?

GRACE: That's a good question. Kimberly, you have looked at the entire area with us, CNN reporter on the scene, Kimberly Osias. She was last seen around 8:45 p.m. the night before, right, Kimberly?

OSIAS: Well, that's what the timeline looks like now. You know, Nancy, it's interesting, because I'm a runner. I went to that area and ran. It is very, very well paved. Very well marked. Even up in the sort of so-called rugged terrain. And there are a number of neighbors that are out there. And I just don't think she was -- she could have been there. At least from what we were hearing from police is that they didn't have any other witnesses come forward and place her there. So the timeline puts the two last being seen at Sunday evening.

GRACE: Detective Baird, how could the car have gotten there without anyone seeing it? Was it a remote area?

BAIRD: Not necessarily, no. It's right at the beginning of Memory Grove City Park. And there is a gate there. This car was about two houses away. And understand, these houses are old homes, and they're very close together. So we're talking maybe 60 or 80 feet from this gate. Also understand that it was reported by a witness early that morning that she had seen a woman matching the description of Lori near her car that was out in front. And this was at 5:50 in the morning.

The sun doesn't come up over the mountains out here in Utah that early. So it's very dark at 10 minutes to 6:00, and it's a situation where this woman may or may not have seen someone out by that car. But she's certain that she saw the car there.

GRACE: Well, can anybody place when the car got there? For instance, Detective, could the car have been placed there the night before or in the early morning hours, say between 1:00 and 5:00 a.m.?

BAIRD: Certainly it could have been. And I'm not certain that it wasn't placed in those -- in that timeframe. However, understand, too, that it was seen by people as early that morning as those who had gone to work. It's hard to say exactly when that car was placed there.

LEE: Nancy, I have a question.

GRACE: Dr. Lee?

LEE: Yeah, I have a question for detective on whether or not any physical evidence was found, fingerprint, or some foreign hairs or other forensic evidence?

BAIRD: We would be looking at that, yes. Certainly, we've got the vehicles. We've got both his car and her car. And we're looking into that. However, I'm not at liberty to discuss at this point just exactly what we've taken out of those cars, based on the fact that it may be evidentiary in value. And it's something that we would not release at this point.

However, that's a good question. That we would be looking into those items.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Lee, you're so dead-on. Because so often in the rush of trying to find the missing person, the car sits idle. It gets taken to the car wash. It gets cleaned out in the meantime. Then it's too late to find any forensic evidence. You're right. Let me go to Surfside Beach, South Carolina. You're on LARRY KING. CALLER: Hey, Nancy.


CALLER: My question is for Dr. Ludwig. Dr. Ludwig, I would like to know if you see any relation to Mark Hacking's behavior to APD, or anti-social personality disorder, and can you describe APD? Thank you.

LUDWIG: Well, as far as anti-social personality disorder, it means that you have no empathy, no feeling for anyone other than yourself. Which makes you more inclined to commit crimes and murder, because you can't assess how another person would feel. So somebody who lies like this certainly fits into that character pathology. And then, you know, it does seem like his -- if, in fact he did this, that it was impulsive, that it was not planned. And that very childlike, they think in the present, and they can't think much beyond the moment.

GRACE: We are taking a break. But I want to remind you we are taking your calls here on LARRY KING LIVE. Everybody seems ready to arrest Mark Hacking tonight. But the fly in the ointment is that they had a very, very happy marriage. And a witness places a Lori Hacking look-alike at that jogging trail in the early morning hours on the day she disappeared. So before we convict him, let's keep that in mind. Stay with us.


THELMA SOARES, LORI HACKING'S MOTHER: I want to address any reports that there is a division between our families. We have been united from the beginning, and we will continue to be united. We draw great strength from one another.



GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us. We're taking your calls. Let's go to Toronto. Toronto, you're on LARRY KING LIVE.

CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I guess this question is directed at Detective Baird. Other than the obvious person of interest, are the police following up on any other leads? And if so, can you comment on what they are?

GRACE: Detective?

BAIRD: Certainly, that's a good question. He is the person of interest we're looking at in this case. He is the only person of interest we're looking at in this case. However, we are following up on every lead that comes in, because we don't want to leave anything unturned in this case. We want to make sure that if there are leads that are credible, we look into those leads to make sure that we can eliminate people, if you will, that would not be people of interest in this type of investigation.

GRACE: Greg Skordas, what are the chances of prosecuting someone without a body?

SKORDAS: Well, it's going to be a lot tougher. It obviously makes the case much, much more difficult. And I think that unless you could have someone, a forensic scientist of some sort, that could go into this house and say, look, notwithstanding that there's no body that's been found here, there is so much evidence here of disruption, of a fight, of violence, of blood, of something like that, that we can assume that someone was killed or hurt horribly here. Without that, it's going to be very, very tough.

And I think that the police are -- and that's why there's this intense effort on this landfill. They've obviously got some lead, some information that tells them, they're sort of focused in on this last area, and I think that's the last piece that the police are looking for in this case.

GRACE: Kimberly Osias, very quickly, is it true that luminol was used in the apartment to try to find blood splatter?

OSIAS: I can't confirm that. I mean, the police that I've spoken to say that it's just conjecture. So that also would be evidentiary, Nancy. So I don't know anything about that firsthand.

GRACE: You know what, you're so right. Conjecture is flying. But we do know a lot of samples were seized from the home. Just don't know what was in them.

I want to go back to Rebecca Carroll. Rebecca, apparently a co- worker, Darren Upshaw (ph) stated Lori was overheard at work saying, "he's already been accepted. He's already applied. This can't be correct." That she broke down in tears and left work. That was on July 16. Do you know anything about that? Did she discover he was not really in medical school?

CARROLL: I don't know anything about that firsthand. I just have heard that on the news. No one personally has told me anything about that. I didn't talk to Lori in those last few days before she went missing. So I don't know, you know, personally I don't know anything exactly about it.

GRACE: Holly, do you? Holly Thomas?

THOMAS: I don't. I didn't hear anything about it.

GRACE: Wow. Detective, do you have any reason to believe that Lori knew the whole lie regarding undergrad and medical school?

BAIRD: Well, I certainly can't talk specifically about what we have learned that Lori knew or didn't know. But understand, too, that when you have a missing persons case, you not only look at the timeline in which they go missing, in other words the last time somebody reports them or having seen them, but you go back in time, as well, to determine if there is something in their lives that would make them either disappear voluntarily, or that may have been so tragic and so traumatic that it would cause someone else to cause them to disappear.

GRACE: Right.

BAIRD: That's part of what we have to do. And that's serious in this case.

GRACE: Holly, did you have any knowledge? You know, they were on their way across the country to move. Did you have any knowledge that they were going to make major furniture purchases, like a bed, of course, with no box springs, but a bed?

THOMAS: I didn't know anything about that, no.

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, we now hear his family coming forward with evidence of possible seizures in the past. How would that affect what may have happened here?

LUDWIG: It sounds like they're planning to, you know, this could be used for a defense. There are certain seizures, temporal lobe seizures that can cause violent repetitive behavior, where in the moment someone is unaware of what they're doing. So I wonder if they are suggesting that in any way.

GRACE: Well, as of tonight, no discoveries in the case of a missing woman, 27-year-old mother-to-be Lori Hacking. The search continues, literally around the clock in Salt Lake City. Our thoughts tonight with the families.

I'm signing off. I'm Nancy Grace saying good night. Thank you for inviting us into your homes. Larry will be back tomorrow. Stay tuned for Daryn Kagan coming up next on "NEWSNIGHT."


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