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Interview with Mario Cuomo; A Talk with Former Defense Secretary William Cohen and His Wife; A New Solution to an Age-Old Pain

Aired August 1, 2004 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST, LARRY KING LIVE: Tonight, former New York governor, Mario Cuomo, a high profile Democrat singing the praises of a Republican president.
Plus TV journalist Janet Langhart Cohen and her husband, former defense secretary, William Cohen.

And then Steven Scott, from losing nine jobs in six years to founding 14 companies doing billions of dollars in business. How he did it, how you can too.

Also, Dr. David Buchholz, a new solution to an age-old pain that hurts millions.

And TV legend Hugh Downs, sharing the wisdom of his age with future generations in a heartwarming open letter to his own great- grandson.

All that and a song from Richard Marx, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We begin tonight with an old friend - Governor Mario Cuomo, the former Democratic governor of New York, and author of terrific new book - "Why Lincoln Matters Today More Than Ever."

Mr. Cuomo - governor - writes eloquently about an - why was Lincoln extraordinary?

MARIO CUOMO, FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: Well, he was a man of unusual brilliance and a man of great philosophical grasp, fantastic values.

Most of all, he's well remembered because of his accomplishments. Number one, he kept the United States together in the Civil War and began the end of slavery.

And then, too, to be candid about it, the fact that he was martyred made him more popular than he ever was in lifetime.

And so, his abilities and his accomplishments make him the most popular president in our history, among historians and among regular people, according to the polls that have been taken.

KING: How did you come up with the idea of relating him to now?

CUOMO: I'll tell you exactly, Larry. In 1955, my sister got me the collected works of Lincoln by Roy Basler. That's the collection of his writings. And I've been reading them for a lifetime.

And we did a book some years ago for Solidarity - Harold Holzer and I. Harold worked with me when I was governor.

And so, I was a Lincoln fan. And I was knowledgeable on Lincoln, but I never thought of writing a book until 9/11 and the memorial of 9/11, when Mike Bloomberg, George Pataki, the governor, and Rudy Giuliani all came to memorialize the first year of this fantastic event.

And instead of giving their own speeches, they read Lincoln. And I said to myself, what this reminds us of is that Lincoln is more than a revered relic. Lincoln is relevant. He's relevant enough to call upon him to try to deal with 9/11.

Well, what else is he relevant to? What about preemptive war? Such a big subject now. He spoke specifically on that.

What about the question of war generally? Well, obviously, his whole four years was the Civil War.

What about multilateralism? Well, he had strong views on unilateralism and multilateralism. And on religion, which is such a big subject now.

And on the suspension of civil liberties, where he suspended the writ of habeas corpus and did a lot of things that were extremely controversial.

So, on many of the subjects that occupy our attention now, Lincoln is relevant, useful. Most of all, his magnificent, overarching philosophy, the ultimate in political values. That's something that we desperately need at the moment.

KING: Would he have been a Republican?

CUOMO: Well, you know, he was called a Republican. He was also called a Whig. So, what's a Whig? What's a Republican? What is it today?

Today, I don't think he would be called a Conservative or a Republican. He differed in very dramatic ways with the Republicans.

On the question of war, he was against preemptive war. He said it's a mistake for a president to optionally go into a war, because it's too easy to make a mistake.

That sounds to me prophetic, considering what's happened in Iraq.

On the economy, he invented the progressive income tax. It might have been unconstitutional at the time, but he invented it. Three percent up to a certain amount, and then five percent over that. And he was very strong about the wealthy people paying the largest part of the burden.

He said, between capital and labor, he preferred labor. He put labor in the first place, the working person, because there were so many of them compared to the smaller number of investors.

He would have been astonished ...

KING: What?

CUOMO: ... at the idea that you could give $2 trillion - $1 trillion to two million taxpayers as a tax cut, leaving out the middle class and denying ourselves so many things that we need, and having a deficit at the same time.

So, he certainly wouldn't have been a Republican conservative today.

KING: What would have disappointed him about America today, do you think?

CUOMO: Race. Race ...

KING: Haven't gone far enough?

CUOMO: Well, he'd have to look back and say, OK. I ended slavery, finally established that color has nothing to do with humanity, and shouldn't have anything to do with defining what humanity is.

But then it took 100 years more before you ever had a civil rights law. And it took until 1954 before you would even let black people occupy - black children - occupy schools with white children.

And even today, we've not solved the race problem fully. And so, I think he'd be disappointed with what we did with race.

KING: He was a brooding man. He suffered from depression. He had a high, singsong voice.

Would he have been a successful politician today?

CUOMO: We would have - well, it's interesting. Politics today depends such much on what you look like on television, what you sound like on television. And I'm not sure that was his milieu.

And worse than that, now politicians talk in sound bites. Now you have to be able to communicate in slogans and shibboleths.

In his time, he was able to communicate in the Cooper Union speech, written about very brilliantly by Harold Holzer, incidentally. The speech at Cooper Union that made him president. Speak for an hour, an hour-and-a-half. The Lincoln-Douglas debates - three hours to discuss issues.

Now you talk about abortion and war and terrorism and life and death and religion in 28-second sound bites. It's a whole different world.

And that, I think, is not where Lincoln would have excelled.

KING: How do you think he would have dealt with things like - that never came up when he was - abortion. You have to be guessing that, right? Or can you find something relative?

CUOMO: I think I can find something really relevant.

He was not a particularly religious person. He spoke the language of religion. He quoted the Bible regularly.

But when asked whether he was Jewish or Christian or Islamic, he said, no, I don't belong to any formal religion.

He didn't have faith. Faith requires that you suspend your intellect. You choose to believe something you can't really prove absolutely through your intellect.

He wasn't willing to do that.

And he believed very much in the division between religion and the state. And so, he never would have supported, in my opinion, a proposition that was built on a purely religious premise.

For example, with stem cells. Nancy Reagan and a lot of other people, scientists saying, we should take embryonic stem cells.

The president says, no you can't. Why not? And you shouldn't. Why not? Because life begins at conception. And that means the stem cell - embryonic stem cell - is a human being.

Well, that's not a scientific conclusion. As a matter of fact, the head of his science office, Dr. John Marburger, says that's not a scientific issue. That's a sacred issue - sacred. He meant, I guess, religious.

Lincoln would never have built a public policy on a purely religious premise. He would have to have a premise that everybody - religious or not religious, and if you were religious, of whatever religion - would accept, because it has a commonality, it has a rationale that goes beyond your religious faith.

So, President Bush, it seems to me, on stem cells is simply saying, look. This is what I believe, because I'm a religious person. And you must believe it, too.

He would never have done that.

KING: Mario, it's a fascinating book. I wish you the best. Look forward to seeing you ...

CUOMO: Thank you so much.

KING: ... in New York. And it's always great having you with us. CUOMO: Thank you. God bless you. Thank you, Larry.

KING: Mario Cuomo. The book, "Why Lincoln Matters Today More Than Ever." Whether you agree or disagree, it's a hell of a read.

We'll be right back.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE two of my favorite people. William Cohen, the former secretary of defense in the Clinton administration, who is here tonight as an accompanist.

He's accompanying his wife, the wonderful Janet Langhart Cohen. She's been his wife since Valentine's Day of 1996, and she's the author of a sensational book, "From Rage to Reason: My Life in Two Americas."

She's billed as the first African-American to be first lady of the Pentagon.

Why did you decide to write this, Janet?

JANET LANGHART COHEN, AUTHOR, "FROM RAGE TO REASON: MY LIFE IN TWO AMERICAS": Larry, first of all, thanks for having Bill and be on.

I wrote the book because Bill told me I had to write the book. He had heard me tell my stories of growing up in two Americas - an America that was profoundly prejudiced and segregated and full of hate for people of color, and then another America, an America that moved to promise and progress.

So, it enabled me to move from rage to reason. And I wrote this story, hopefully to contribute to the dialogue on race.

We here in America don't like to talk about race. And certainly, we don't like to talk about racism.

But this is an inspirational book. It says that, if I can do it in America, anybody can. And it says that anything is possible in America.

KING: Secretary Cohen, you are from Rockwood, Maine.

Wasn't there some hesitancy when you me this beautiful black girl, that this was difficult?

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There was no hesitancy on my part. I looked at Janet and saw a woman of great beauty and great spirit and considerable intellect, I might add, that first attracted me.

And so, it was not a matter of color. I looked at the content of her character and said, this is the woman that I want to be with. And I knew that my parents would certainly identify with and embrace her, and they did. JANET LANGHART COHEN: They've been wonderful to me.

KING: The opening line of the book says a lot. From a fellow 12-year-old in Indianapolis, where you grew up, "you're pretty for a colored girl."

What was it like to hear that through youth? You're pretty, but you - pretty, but you're colored?

JANET LANGHART COHEN: Well, I knew - I knew she meant that as a compliment. But it was a left-handed, backhand compliment.

But what was more disturbing was to hear something like that 40 years later from an older person - a United States senator who said to my husband, he said, "Which one of Janet's parents is white?"

And Bill said, "Neither one. Why do you ask?"

And he said, "Because she's so intelligent."

So, you know, I wonder how far have we really come? And how far have we really grown, when somebody could make a comment like that?

Although innocent, but it showed we needed a little bit more enlightenment.

KING: Well, it's a terrific work.

William, what surprised you when you read it?

WILLIAM COHEN: Nothing came as a surprise to me, because I had been listening to Janet and talking with her over the years.

I think one of the most important passages came at the very end of the book, where she talked about her experience in going to the Indy 500, and interviewing one of the racing family greats.

And to have her life come full circle, as we were guests of honor at the Indy 500, where she started out so many years before, ...


WILLIAM COHEN: ... in a very racially segregated, prejudiced society, as such. And to come full circle and to go around that track, it was a great metaphor, and something that was memorable to me.

KING: Janet, was the first ...

JANET LANGHART COHEN: Because when I grew up ...

KING: Yes, go ahead.

JANET LANGHART COHEN: When I grew up, Larry, Indianapolis was the headquarters for the Ku Klux Klan.

KING: Yes.

JANET LANGHART COHEN: And there were places that we were not allowed to go. We didn't have signs up in Indianapolis like they did in the Deep South - colored only, white only.

We were sort of restricted. We knew our place. It was almost like those dogs who wear those electrified collars. They know not to cross an invisible fence.

So, to come home with my husband, who is the Secretary of Defense, and be in that lead car around the Indy 500 track was coming full circle.

And what I remember most about that day, other than his illustrious speech, was that I had come home and I didn't see black and white. I saw red, white and blue.

And it was the first time, Larry, that I felt I could claim America and not blame her.

KING: Mario Cuomo just said, Mr. Secretary Cohen, that is Lincoln were alive today, he'd be disappointed at where race has come.

Would you agree with that?

WILLIAM COHEN: Oh, I think that clearly is the case, that we have come a long way. And as a matter of fact, a testament to that is that Janet and I were married in the Capitol - U.S. Capitol - a building that was built on the backs of slaves, African-Americans.

And it was symbolic for us to be in that very building so many years after its construction, and to have at our wedding Senator Strom Thurmond, who campaigned as a Dixiecrat, as such, back in '48.

And yet, to see him at that wedding, and who was there willingly and lovingly for the two of us. And that tells you something about how far he had come, certainly, how far America had come during that period of time.

KING: But still disappointing. Lincoln would be disappointed.

WILLIAM COHEN: Obviously, I ...


WILLIAM COHEN: I think he would, ...

KING: What do you think, Janet?

JANET LANGHART COHEN: Well, I don't know about Lincoln. But I can tell you about another great American who was assassinated - one that I knew - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

He would expect us to be further than we are. But I think he would have been happy to see Bill and me. He talked about, he wants to see an America, a Promised Land, where a little black boy, or a little black girl can hold hands with a little white boy or a little white girl. And we did that.

He said to measure people by the content of their character. And Bill and I have done that.

So, I think maybe Lincoln might be disappointed. I won't question Governor Cuomo.

But I think Martin Luther King, Jr., would be happy and he would be inspiring us to do more, to do better.

KING: How did you break the barrier in television in Chicago? You were an anchor. You had a talk show before Oprah.

How did you bust through that tough legion (ph)?

JANET LANGHART COHEN: Larry, I was just very, very lucky. I think a lot of things are choice, and other things are chance. I had a chance, an opportunity.

We talked about Dr. King. He had just been assassinated. And I think his movement of non-violence moved us from hate to love, from shame to civility in this country. And after his death, the federal government and corporate heads decided that we were going to give people of color an opportunity.

And I was modeling in Chicago for Marshall Field, highly visible. And I think the people at BBM, CBS said, oh. There's one. Let's hire her.

And they brought me in to do the weather. And being curious like you - I'm a great admirer of yours, because you ask good questions, you're interested in people. And I was always interested in people.

And I think the people at CBS, Channel 2 in Chicago, saw that curiosity and gave me an opportunity. And the rest is history.

I went to Boston, and there I met Bill Cohen.

KING: What's it been like for you, Mr. Secretary, to be married interracially?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, frankly, it's been very good for me, in terms of the positions that I occupied at the Defense Department.

When Janet and I stepped off that aircraft that said the United States of America in any country, as we walked down that gangway into these countries, we said, this is something that we have overcome in this country, that race really has been transcended, as far as we are concerned, that we're the face of America.

We're two people who love each other, could be married to each other and represent the greatest country on the face of the earth. And so, for me, again, it wasn't a question of color, in terms of my love for Janet, but rather it was a statement also that this country still serves as a shining beacon to many other countries.

With all of our problems, with all of the elements of racism that still lurk below the surface, nonetheless, this country has come an incredibly long way.

KING: In the weeks ahead, we ...


KING: I'm sorry, we're out of time - but in the weeks ahead, ...


KING: ... we're going to do a panel discussion on race relations in America, and we hope to have Janet back.

JANET LANGHART COHEN: I'd love to join that.

KING: Good accompanying ...

WILLIAM COHEN: OK. Thanks very much, Larry.

KING: Janet Langhart Cohen and William Cohen. The book is, "From Rage to Reason: My Life in Two Americas" - Janet Langhart Cohen, quite a lady.

Back after this.


KING: It's a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, Steven Scott, the author of a terrific book, "Mentored By A Millionaire: Master Strategies of Super Achievers."

The book is based on his own best-selling audiotape series. I was happy to read this book in galley and give it a mention. It's a terrific work, and certainly important.

What is mentoring? Define that.

STEVEN K. SCOTT, AUTHOR, "MENTORED BY A MILLIONAIRE": Mentoring is coaching. It's having someone that teaches you and coaches you through what they've been through. So it's ...

KING: Were you mentored?

SCOTT: I was mentored by a millionaire.

I flunked out of nine jobs ...

KING: The title is realistic.

SCOTT: It's realistic. I flunked out of nine jobs in my first six years after college. Never got a pay raise. Never got a thank you.

And, in fact, on job number three was told by my boss, a Harvard MBA, senior vice president, that I was the single, greatest disappointment in his entire career, I would never succeed in marketing, my chosen field, and I had 20 minutes to clean out my desk.

So, I really believed that I was on a career of failing.

KING: Treadmill to oblivion.

SCOTT: Yes. And ...

KING: What happened?

SCOTT: Went through six more jobs in the next four years.

And finally I met a man who decided to mentor me. And he taught me 15 strategies - simple strategies and specific steps to apply them to my life - that changed absolutely everything.

In the years that followed, I was able to build with my partners more than a dozen multi-billion dollar businesses doing over $2 billion in sales, and achieving all the things that we really wanted to achieve that most people would say were impossible.

KING: How do you recommend people use this book?

SCOTT: Well, I take them through, step by step, each strategy. And you can apply it to any area of your life, Larry. You can apply it to your marriage, your parenting skills.

Gallup did a poll on New Year's resolutions this year. And for the first time, weight loss wasn't number one.

Number one was, I want a better job. Number two was, I want to be better.

But more of the same never brings change. It's not enough just to try harder. People try hard and they still don't achieve the next level of success.

But super achievers use a set of strategies that aren't taught in school - high school, college, business school.

In fact, I went to high school with Steven Spielberg. And we met up 18 years after we graduated. He had achieved his impossible dreams and I had achieved mine.

And as we began to compare notes, he made a comment. He said, isn't it interesting. The things that really change your life aren't the things you learn in school. They're what you learn from others.

KING: Can anyone apply themselves to this book? How much of a life is dependent upon personality?

SCOTT: Well, ... KING: And how much can you learn?

SCOTT: Well, you know what? A lot of it's dependent on personality. But one of the things we do in the book is give you a personality quiz. So in five minutes, you find your personality.

And that does three things. Number one, it teaches you how to play to your strengths, you see your strengths. Number two, how to strengthen your weaknesses.

But most important, what type of person to partner with. Because one of the 15 strategies - the most powerful strategies ever used by any super achiever in history - has been that of effective partnering.

There was a minimum wage bookkeeper in Cleveland, Ohio, making $4 a week, and he used one of these strategies. He partnered with the right guy.

And neither one of them had any money, but they used, actually, three of the strategies I teach in the book - vision mapping, shooting for the moon and then effective partnering.

And in a matter of years, he became the richest man in the world. He owned 90 percent of the oil pipelines in America, 80 percent of the refining capacity and 25 percent of the oil wells. It was John D. Rockefeller.

So, what's key is, is learning these specific strategies. They're easy. Anybody can apply them.

For example, how to become an effective and persuasive communicator, how to deal with fear of failure. Every man fears failure. Most women have a real problem with criticism. So it teaches you how to deal with criticism in the right way.

KING: This is not just economic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ...

SCOTT: No, not at all. It's any area where you want to achieve extraordinary outcomes. If you want to be the best day you can be, then you can apply these same principles.

My son's an inner-city teacher in the city of Philadelphia. And he'll never get rich applying the strategies in this book, but he will become the best high school English teacher in the inner-city of Philadelphia using them.

KING: What is vision mapping?

SCOTT: Vision mapping. First of all, it's something every super achiever in history has done. Lincoln, who you talked about earlier, Edison, Rockefeller, Ray Kroc, started McDonald's.

What it is, it's gaining a clear and precise vision for what you want in a particular situation. And then it's creating a specific roadmap on how to get there. It converts that vision into goals, then you convert goals into steps, and complex steps into simple tasks. And then you begin to take them one by one. And so, we teach all of those.

We teach Edison's techniques for creative persistence. Edison never made it through first grade, and yet he had more successful inventions than anyone in history using the strategies and techniques we teach in the book.

KING: So the book is my mentor?

SCOTT: Yes. That's the whole concept. I was mentored by a millionaire, and now I'm mentoring those who read the book.

One person read the book - actually, read the manuscript - about a year ago. And he had flunked out of everything.

He started his own business using the strategies, and he sold that business about two months ago for $30 million. And he was one who was convinced he could never succeed.

See, most people are stuck. They're stuck in their careers, stuck on their jobs, stuck in their marriage. They don't know how to go to the next level of success.

And it's not enough just to be a positive thinker or to get psyched up. That only works for about two or three weeks.

You've got to have some specific, easily applied strategies. And that's what it's all about. How to deal with fear of failure, for example, is a real important one.

KING: Now you turned this in - you had a whole series of audiotapes, right?

SCOTT: Right.

KING: A very successful series. Why did you decide to do it as a book?

SCOTT: Well, the publisher came in. My first book was published by Simon & Schuster a few years ago, and then another one by them.

And this particular publisher heard the tapes. And they said, you know, would you consider putting it in writing. And in the book, I'm able to do things I couldn't do on the tapes, as far as really laying things out step by step.

See, it's not only the strategies, it's the specific skills. So it's one thing for me to say, Larry, do you want to become a better communicator with your wife? Or, Shawn, do you want to become a better communicator with Larry?

But if I don't give you the specific skills - so I teach four communication skills that would enable anyone to enable the other person to understand what they're saying and feel what they're feeling, which is the essence of communication. KING: As I said, the secret of Steven Scott's wonderful book can be found in the title. These strategies work, because you're being mentored by someone from the frontlines. The book will forever be around helping, teaching and mentoring.

Thanks, Steven.

SCOTT: Hey, thank you, Larry, for having me.

KING: Steven Scott. The book is "Mentored By A Millionaire: Master Strategies of Super Achievers."

We'll be right back.


KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, Dr. David Buchholz, author of "Heal Your Headache: The 1-2-3 Program for Taking Charge of Your Pain." He served 14 years as director of the Neurological Consultation Clinic at Johns Hopkins, was first recommended to me by the way by my friend Ross Perot. And he has treated my wife, who has suffered from migraines.

What, Dr. Buchholz, is a migraine?

DAVID BUCHHOLZ, AUTHOR, "HEAL YOUR HEADACHE": Larry, I wouldn't think of it as a migraine, because that implies that it's one particular type of headache. And that's not the case.

Rather, migraine is a mechanism in the brain that when activated by a variety of triggers, produces painful blood vessel swelling somewhere around the head, face or neck.

And this can vary in degree. So if migraine is mildly activated, and you have mild blood vessel swelling, you'll have what you might think of as a tension headache. And if this mechanism becomes more activated, it might build into what you think of as a sinus headache.

And if it revs up all the way, then you have severe pain, often associated with nausea and sensitivity to light and noise, what you might think of as a full blown migraine.

But the point is that all of these headaches, virtually all of the headaches that we get, arise from a single source. And by understanding how that works, you can control it and prevent whatever headaches you might tend to experience.

KING: You are saying then that you can heal the headache problem?

BUCHHOLZ: That's right.


BUCHHOLZ: Well, it starts with understanding what governs migraines, why migraines happen. And it works like this. There's a control center in your brain that oversees migraine and receives input from the many triggers that tend to activate it, like stress and hormones and barometric pressure changes and sleep disturbance and lots of things that we commonly eat and drink. And the list goes on.

So at any moment, you have in your migraine control center, a stack of triggers reflecting your exposure to these various influences within the past day or two.

And in your migraine control center, you have a threshold, that is a level of trigger input required to activate migraine. So if your trigger level stays below the threshold, migraine doesn't happen. When the trigger level climbs higher, migraine will activate and produce blood vessel swelling and pain. And the higher the trigger level climbs above that threshold, the worse things will be.

So here's a tension headache. Here's a sinus headache. Here's a migraine.

The point is that by doing the right things, you can reduce your trigger level and you can raise your threshold, and you can prevent headaches of all kinds.

KING: Why have people had this problem for ages? Why does it seem never ending? People say well you can't cure it.

BUCHHOLZ: The question is to why headaches are part of our nature is one that I can't answer. I don't really know. I can speculate. We don't have the time really to do that. But there's no denying that headaches are universal. And for so many people, headaches are an enormous problem.

The important message is that they're not necessary. They may be natural, but they're not necessary. You can control them.

KING: How do you know when one is really serious? How do you know when it's not a tumor?

BUCHHOLZ: Headaches occasionally, but not often, arise from serious problems like a tumor or a bleed into the brain. You know it when that happens because there's usually something dramatically wrong.

But the vast majority of headaches that we get arise from activation of migraine. And by taking steps that you have in your own hands, to reduce your trigger level and to raise your threshold, you can gain control.

KING: What do you make of pain killers?

BUCHHOLZ: Well, the first step in my one, two, three program is to avoid reliance on pain killers, because the problem, Larry, is that too many of them, as much as they help in the short run, produce a rebound effect, which means that each time you expose yourself to one of these drugs, it makes your next headache more likely.

One way to think about this is that each time you take an Excedrin or a Pheoroset (ph) or an Imitrex or other drugs of that type, you push down this threshold. And it becomes easier and easier for headaches to occur. So the first step is to avoid relying on pain killers and instead focus on what you can do to prevent headaches.

KING: But living through that while you're focusing is difficult, isn't it? When you know that pill over there might take the pain away.

BUCHHOLZ: No question. It's the hardest step of all. It's also the most crucial step, because without escaping from this rebound problem, you'll not gain control of your headaches by taking steps two and three, which can lead to control.

KING: And they are briefly?

BUCHHOLZ: All right, step two, reducing your trigger level, which largely boils down to dietary changes.

KING: Change what you eat.

BUCHHOLZ: Yes. A lot of things that we eat feed our headaches. We don't realize it for a number of good reasons, like the delay of up to a day or two from consumption to effect. And the list includes caffeine, chocolate, alcohol, monosodium glutamate, cheese, nuts, citrus juice, bananas, lots of things that you would think are perfectly healthy are major headache triggers for many people.

The third step, which is not necessary for most people, is to use a preventive medication to raise your threshold, so that headaches don't happen as easily.

KING: All right, how do you know what food to cut out?

BUCHHOLZ: Well, if you read "Heal Your Headache", you'll find that there is a list of all of the potential dietary triggers. The best approach is to stay away from all of them as best you can. Get your headache problem under control. And then you can reintroduce items carefully, see what you can get away with, and see what you can't. And you can find a balance between livable dietary modification and headache control.

KING: Doctor, have you treated people who have had headaches for years and don't have them anymore?

BUCHHOLZ: Oh, absolutely. It's phenomenal, Larry. The people who I see are the worst of the worst. They're people who are waiting six months to get into my door. They've been everywhere, done everything. They're labeled failed headache patients. They've never addressed the problem properly. They've almost always depended on painkillers. They've never adequately modified their diets. And it's remarkable how well those people do, if they do the right things.

KING: Is - are headaches different depending where they are? Like front between the eyes as opposed to back of the head?

BUCHHOLZ: No. Migraine not only produces pain of all different degrees, but pain in locations throughout the head, behind the face, where you mistakenly think of it as a sinus headache in the neck and upper back, where you think of it as tension.

All of those are part of the territory of migraine. And you can have migraine on a constant basis, day in and day out for years, as long as your trigger level hovers above your threshold.

But you can also control it by taking the right steps.

KING: Thank you so much, David.

BUCHHOLZ: Thank you, Larry.

KING: He's one of the leading figures in the field. The book is "Heal Your Headache: The 1-2-3 Program for Taking Charge of Your Pain." He's Dr. David Buchholz of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.

We'll be right back.


KING: We now welcome an extraordinary talent to LARRY KING LIVE. He's Richard Marx, the multi platinum selling singer and musician, Grammy winning songwriter. His new album out this summer is "My Own Best Enemy." His own Web site refers to the songs on the CD as dark and confession.

You've had an extraordinary career. You've written for hits with Luther Vandross. You've written for Josh Groban, Barbara Streisand, Kenny Rogers, Hugh Jackman. Your name is not a household name. Why not?

RICHARD MARX, SINGER: Well, I think the people that have sustained 20 and 30 year careers as superstar singers have all had one thing in common in that they've reinvented themselves imagematically. And I didn't even invent myself imagematically, let alone reinvent myself.

It was always about the music. And I think my songs always became more famous than I ever did.

And I never went to the right parties and do all that stuff that you're supposed to do.

KING: Is that because the - writing it was more interesting to you than being at that scene?

MARX: I loved being behind the scenes. But I also loved that I had a vehicle for my songs, which was my voice. And for a period of time, you know, I had a really great run as a singer.

But I never launched into the celebrity stratosphere, because I don't think I ever embraced the stuff you're supposed to do.

KING: Therefore, it does not bother you if a song you write becomes a hit sung by someone else?

MARX: No. I love it. My accountant loves it. It's all good.

KING: So did the thing with you is the music?

MARX: It's the music. It's never been about the flash. I still, after you know, however many years doing this, I wake up every morning. And I can't wait to go to the studio. I can't wait to write songs. I can't wait to make records for people.

And I always say like my dad used to say, it beats working for a living. You know, it's great.

KING: All right, what did we mean by my own best enemy?

MARX: Well, I don't know if you can relate to this, but a lot of people can. I am not self destructive. It's not been self destructive, but if things are too easy for me, I'm not that interested in them. And I think I throw speed bumps in my own path, in my life and in my career, because I love challenges.

My whole career has been a challenge. My whole career has been sort of proving people wrong. And I think I work best under those circumstances.

KING: So the harder it is, the more you like it?

MARX: For me.

KING: So these songs represent that?

MARX: Not necessarily. I mean, there's - I'm - as you know, I'm a happy guy, you know...

KING: Yes, you are.

MARX: I married up.

KING: You did.

MARX: And I've got a great family of three incredible sons and a career that I love. But I can go to a dark place to write songs because I think that's where the poetry is.

I think trying to write poetry and lyrics under normally happy themes can end up sounding like a bad Hallmark card to me. And I'm much more attracted to the melancholy and the pain and anger.

KING: But you've written happy songs?

MARX: I have. I have. But I'm attracted to the dark part of other peoples' work. I'm attracted to darker poetry, to darker themed films. You know, I don't know. It's just...

KING: So you're happily married with three great kids, right? So you're not weird? MARX: Well, I think you'd have to ask them.

KING: No, but you're attracted to things?

MARX: I am. I mean, I don't know if you - I think it's - I think part of that is the sensation of heartache is a greater feeling, it's a heavier feeling than joy. I think joy kind of comes and goes like that. And overall, I'm a happy guy, but I can tap into that sort of...

KING: Pain.

MARX: ...pain. And I think it serves my song writing better.

KING: Is one of the songs "My Own Best Enemy?"


KING: That is not one?

MARX: It's just a phrase that I stumbled upon when we were making the album. And I liked it. So it kind of represented the whole batch.

KING: You write and produced country songs, too, right?

MARX: Yes. You know what's been so great, Larry, is that in the last seven years or so since I haven't been singing and making my own albums, and been more of a record producer and song writer for the people, I've been able to do every kind of music imaginable. I've gotten to make records with rock and roll groups, with pop artists like Josh Groban who did my song "To Where You Are," and my song with Linda Thompson here on your show and launched his career, and get to work with Ben...

KING: Now you wrote that?

MARX: ...and - yes.

KING: Great song.

MARX: Thanks. And I get to do all these really cool different kinds of music, that I could never get away with as an artist, because you can't jump genres that way as an artist. But as their writer and producer, I get to do - break all those rules and take my kids to school.

KING: You had a dispute with Brad Paisley, who was - he's a country music artist. Is that it?

MARX: You know about this?

KING: And I just learned about it here. It says that he said that - Paisley said country music is more serious about songs, while pop music is all about the way they're produced. And you said tell that to Paul Simon or Paul McCartney. What makes it works, you said, is that this comes from a guy who's been famous for 12 minutes. Are you - how did this dispute start?

MARX: I was at a music convention seminar kind of thing in Nashville, in the audience. And he was on the panel. And he'd only had one or two songs out.

And he was asked what he thought was the big difference between pop music and country music. And that's what he said, that country music was all about the songs and the song writing. And pop music was all about the production.

And I found that to a pretty arrogant and offensive thing to say to not only me, but Paul McCartney and James Taylor and all of us pop song writers who take our crap so seriously of the song writing.

And I just thought it was kind of a like why would you say that? And so I had an interview with the local paper the next morning. And I kind of went off on him. And he...

KING: But you also delve into country too, right?

MARX: Yes. I mean, I'm still kind of a Yankee in Nashville, but I go there all the time.

KING: Is music music?

MARX: Music's music. There's only two kinds of music. There's good and there's bad. And if you like it, it's good. And if you don't like it, it's bad. And it's all completely subjective.

KING: What about - is producing country different than producing pop?

MARX: It is. Good question. Because the instrumentation is a little bit different. And I use pedal steel guitar and some of the country records and more mandolin and fiddles. And it's really fun to kind of go to Nashville and work with that level of musicianship.

KING: Have you run dry?

MARX: Never.

KING: Never - where nothing came out for days?

MARX: No. I think - I believe that my best song writing is ahead of me. And I think - you have to write something. Everybody who says well I'm having a dry spell. I think that's baloney. You have to write something. Even if it's bad at the moment, from that pile of garbage might be two words that spark something else.

But you can't use it as an excuse not to write. My dad taught me that. He was a jingle composer. And he had to be on every day and come up with the goods. And he said I can't afford dry spells.

KING: Alan J. Lerner told me once that song writing is not poetry. It's a special definitive art. MARX: That's - yes, that's an absolutely accurate quote because regular poetry doesn't necessarily match itself to melodies. And it's a special kind of wordsmithing.

KING: What jingles did your father write?

MARX: Two scoops of raisins in a package of Kellogg's Raisin Bran. That's like one of his biggest hits. If my dad's hits as a jingle composer...

KING: Hit, a jingle hit.

MARX: ...outshined all of us pop song writers.

KING: What makes a jingle a hit? It lasts forever, right?

MARX: Well, it's only 30 seconds long. He's got to get to the hook.


MARX: OK, there you go. How about "he's come a long way baby?" That's my dad's melody. Come on "put the milk on Kellogg's cornflakes and eat them all..." Everybody, you know you know it.

KING: Well, Richard, I wish you nothing but the best.

MARX: Thanks, Larry.

KING: Great knowing you.

MARX: You too, thanks.

KING: His new album is "My Own Best Enemy." He's an extraordinary talent. He's Richard Marx. An old friend, Hugh Downs, is next. Don't go away.


KING: We close it out tonight with one of my favorite people, Hugh Downs, one of the most recognized personalities in the history of American television, the former co-anchor of "20/20," the host of "The Today Show," Jack Parr's sidekick on "The Tonight Show," and author of a wonderful new book, "Letter to a Great Grandson: A Message of Love, Advice, and Hopes for the Future."

Downs celebrated his 83rd birthday in February of 2004. What is it like to be a great grandfather?

HUGH DOWNS, AUTHOR, "LETTER TO A GREAT GRANDSON": Greater than being a grandfather.

KING: It is?

DOWNS: Yes, it really is.

KING: Why?

DOWNS: Well, I don't know why. You know, I loved my children and I had fun with them, but I had more fun with grandchildren. And now I'm having still more - an added dimension to have a great grandson.

KING: How did you come up with the idea of a letter?

DOWNS: Well, when I thought what I would give to a document like that from one of my great grandfathers or a grandfather, which I don't have. And I'd mentioned it to a book producer named Bill Adler. And he said that'd make a good book. And so, that's how it became a book.

KING: Yes, I've worked a lot with Bill. He's terrific on ideas. What was the concept? What did you want to say to young Alexander William Black?

DOWNS: Yes. What I wanted to get across was some family history and stuff, that he would like to know, I'm sure and how I see it. And then, some ideas of mine about what the future will be like when he is at various ages, up through and including my age. And I'm sure he'll find them quaint when he's my age, some of them, because you've kind of missed the boat in trying to predict the future.

But some of them might be right on. And I wanted to impart a message of optimism that I think is justified. It's a dangerous time. It's always a dangerous time, but I think he has a good shot at having a happy life if he lives as long as I have.

KING: And you do the book chronologically, right? You break it into like decades?

DOWNS: Yes, right. What decades of his life were - what they may be like and what mine were like.

KING: You have a decade that sticks out the most and you're 80?

DOWNS: You know, I do. I have - actually, I would say the decade that's most satisfying to me was my 70s. But the one that was the most chock full of action was from 20 to 30. Because in that decade, I went to college. I went to two different colleges. Went into the Army and out of the Army. Started - I had a broadcast career going with (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I had a son in '45 and a daughter in '49.

To - I look back on that and all that happened within 10 years. It seems to hard to believe. That was very eventful.

KING: George Bernard Shaw said that youth is wasted on the young. Do you agree with that?

DOWNS: To a certain extent that's true, partly because youth is wonderful, but I think one of the benefits of age is you have much more chance of having a command of your own comfort, which I did not have.

I had great challenge. And I enjoyed that when I was young, but I wasn't comfortable most of the time. And I just took the comfort when it came and was at the mercy at the fate.

I'm less at the mercy of fate now.

KING: How old is little Alexander now?

DOWNS: Oh, he's about 20 - going on 21 months. And - which is a great age. Every age is great, but he's approaching the terrible twos. He's learned how to say no already.

KING: What's it like to be 83?

DOWNS: Well, it's like I don't know. I still have the feeling that when I look in the mirror I'm going to see a 35-year old guy there. And it always kinds of jars me that that's not what I see. But I feel like I'm 35. And it's very different than what I thought it would be like to be in your 80s when I was 20.

KING: Yes. Are you blessed with good health?

DOWNS: Yes, very lucky in that department. I'm very lucky.

KING: Do you miss being on television regularly?

DOWNS: I miss some of the people I worked with. And I miss field work mostly, but I do not miss the grind, which as I like to say, was undercutting my goal of becoming the playboy of the Western world.

KING: How about though when a big story happens? Do you yearn to want to be there?

DOWNS: You know, I don't, Larry. And it's a funny thing about television. In the days when I covered things like that, it was very intense and very focused. But now, as a viewer, I can cover the thing a lot better through video coverage than I can if I were in the field trying to do it.

KING: Are you critical of what you see?

DOWNS: Yes, you have to be somewhat. But it's not - there's always room for improvement in various things. But by and large, I think television is serving the public by showing them what's going on.

KING: What kind of election are we going to have?

DOWNS: Fierce, fierce. Between now - and it's way too long. I don't know why we can't do something to get - where we'd have three weeks of campaigning, some real debates, and then have a vote afterward.

KING: Yes.

DOWNS: The way it's set up now is appalling.

KING: Do you write to your grandson about politics? Your great grandson?

DOWNS: Not - no, because I think it's too topical. By the - that'll be real old hat by the time he's old enough to enjoy reading it. You know, when he first reads it, he'll be bored to tears. And when he's middle aged, he'll be interested. But when he's my age, he's going to be fascinated, I think by what I've had to say.

KING: Do you think finally, Hugh, he will learn the optimism of his great grandfather?

DOWNS: I'd like to think that could be some influence on him. The book's basically optimistic. And unless his make-up is pessimistic, which I seriously doubt that it will be, he's a jolly, happy kid, maybe he'll get some added optimism from what he knows about me.

KING: Hugh, you're one of the finest people I know. I thank you very much for being with us.

DOWNS: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Pleasure. Hugh Downs, the book "Letter to a Great Grandson, a Message of Love, Advice and Hopes for the Future." And one of my favorite folk, Hugh Downs.

I'll be back in a couple of minutes.


KING: Thanks for joining us for tonight's edition of LARRY KING LIVE, a great line-up of guests. Hope you enjoyed it. See you tomorrow night. Now stay tuned for more news around the clock on your most trusted name in news, CNN. Good night.


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