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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Interview With Paul Soares; Updates On Hacking Case And Peterson Trial
Aired August 4, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, GUEST HOST: Tonight, the brother of Lori Hacking -- the missing Salt City mom-to-be -- Paul Soares, speaks out about the tragedy that has shattered his family.
Has Lori's Husband Mark Hacking confessed to murder? Well, court documents and Salt Lake City authorities say, yes, he has. Mark Hacking is on a suicide watch under arrest for aggravated murder. The heart-breaking search for Lori's remains goes on. Tonight, the latest.
And then, to Redwood City and Scott Peterson's double murder trial. Testimony about X-rated cable pornography and what is on Scott Peterson's computer?
Plus, prosecutors are reprimanded by the judge for something they didn't do. It is all next, including your calls, on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening. Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us.
As you know, about right now, 9:00 Eastern, the search is continuing for Lori Hacking. Police have already gone through thousands, thousands of pounds of garbage, they've scoured the country side looking for the 27-year-old mother to be, Lori Hacking. And, tonight, a very special guest, her brother, Paul, is with us. Paul, welcome and thank you for being with us.
PAUL SOARES, LORI HACKING'S BROTHER: Thanks for having me.
GRACE: Paul, before we get started, I just want you to know that so many people are holding you and your family in their thoughts and prayers. Please know that.
SOARES: That has really helped us.
GRACE: So many questions. My first is, after knowing Mark for so long, did you ever think, Paul, he could be responsible for something like this?
SOARES: No. If you would have asked me prior to this happening that this would have happened, there was no way I could even fathom this was even a possibility. It came as a complete shock. And it is still real hard to imagine. It shows you how little you know people. GRACE: Well, Paul, share with us the chronology of events and your lives. See, we're on the outside looking in. We hear press conferences. We see searches going on.
But what happened in your life?
How did you first learn Lori was missing?
SOARES: I got a voice mail on that Monday morning asking me what was going on in Utah, and I wasn't aware of anything. I called my stepmother and asked her what was happening?
And she informed me Lori had gone out jogging and had not returned. I immediately called up to Salt Lake and tried to find out, I wasn't able to get a hold of anybody to really know. At that point I wasn't particularly concerned.
It was only a couple of hours later at this point, but the time got further and further to when I really started getting worried.
GRACE: That must be awful for you to be far away.
Where are you in relation to salt lake city?
SOARES: I'm in Southern California right next to Disney Land, most people would know where that is at. It is. It is horrible. I was here, constantly on the phone, up in Salt Lake City, wanting to be there, at the same time knowing there was little I could do. Feeling completely helpless.
GRACE: I can't even imagine feeling that you're so far away from your family.
So as the hours went by, after you had gotten this voicemail what did you do?
SOARES: I just immediately started praying that she would be found, that she would be OK. I continuously tried to keep in contact with people up there. I spoke with my mother. I spoke with Mark. Just tried as much as possible to be kept in informed of what was going through that day and that night. All the time hoping and really expecting to get a phone call saying we found her. Maybe she's hurt, whatever, but we found her.
GRACE: You know, Paul, I'm just wondering, in your mind, what scenario did you play out as to where she was?
SOARES: At first I thought, well, she -- she was running, she tripped and fell, maybe by a bush or under a bush. I thought, well, by this time I found out she was pregnant. My wife being pregnant now, I know how at the early stages she was with a morning sickness. I thought, well, maybe Lori went running, got really sick, even might have fainted. Something to that effect. I really felt that she was just somewhere there in the park, had just fallen and was either unconscious or was just hurt.
GRACE: Paul, when did it dawn on you that something very serious had happened, she hadn't just fallen?
SOARES: When I woke up the next morning and didn't get a phone call, I knew that something was not right, because the park is not that big. Even if she had fallen, Salt Lake County has an excellent search and rescue team. They would have found her within those 24 hours. When I didn't get a phone call, I knew there was something -- I didn't know what, my mind went everywhere. Anywhere from her being abducted. Also around her, something not right happening. Never in my mind did my idea that she ran away. Some people were saying, oh, she's run away, she's taken off. No. Lori, would never do that.
GRACE: You knew that wasn't so. My question is, I'm looking at her. She's so beautiful and so full of life, and those wedding videos, they just seem so happy. Paul, did you ever see any pattern of lying, were you ever suspicious in any way of, Mark?
SOARES: Oh, no. No, I wasn't. Mark, always portrayed to me the perfect brother-in-law. There was never anything -- I seen him quite a bit. I knew him. I'd know him for 12 years. Always portrayed to me a perfect image. I had been with him a couple of weeks before, Lori and Mark appeared to be happy. I remember her talking about they're excited to go to North Carolina. They had just come back, rented an apartment. Excited to start the next phase in their lives. Nothing -- nothing, Nancy. And I've looked back with a fine toothed comb, everything.
GRACE: Had she been trying to get pregnant or was this a big surprise to the two of them?
SOARES: Well, my understanding -- well, we had talked about before, is that they were going to wait until Mark got accepted to med school, and then they were going to start their family. I wasn't aware that they were already starting, but I knew they were going to start. So it was right. I knew they were planning on starting the family, but didn't realize this quick.
GRACE: The stunning, stunning revelation that he told somebody on the psych ward that he killed Lori in her sleep, it must leave you with the question of why.
SOARES: There is a lot of whys, Nancy, not just that. Everything in this case is a big why.
The lies, why did he feel he needed to lie?
Why did he need to feel the deception?
There is -- that's all this case is now, whys. I can't understand it. The idea he killed her in her sleep to me is the hardest part to stomach, because it is just an act of coward. And I don't -- I don't understand it.
GRACE: With us tonight, Paul Soares, speaking out. He's Lori Hacking's older brother. As you know, about right now the search is resuming for Lori Hacking's remains. Police have already gone through tens and tens of thousands of pounds of garbage, trying to find the missing mother to be. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT DUNAWAY, READING STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF HACKING FAMILY: My family and I are profoundly anguished to lose Lori, our precious daughter and sister. Our lives will never be the same and we will grieve for her and miss her until the day we die. But when that day finally arrives, we know with absolute certainty that she will be there with open arms to greet us, and our reunion as a family will be glorious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK HACKING, HUSBAND OF LORI HACKING: It's hard to look for my wife knowing -- I'm looking under branches. And I'm looking -- I'm looking in the water. I'm looking in all these places where, if she's there, then the unimaginable has happened. And that's very -- that's very difficult.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That's a shot of Mark Hacking speaking out while the search was ongoing. Nearly 4,000 volunteers showed up to search for his wife, Lori Hacking.
Reportedly, he admitted to a citizen, as it states in the psychiatric unit, that he had killed his wife, Lori Hacking, mother- to-be, in her sleep. He's currently under suicide watch at the local jail.
Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace, from Court TV, in for Larry tonight. And I want to thank you for being with us.
Tonight with us, a very special guest, Lori's brother, Paul Soares. Paul, again, welcome. What would Lori's reaction have been if she found out Mark Hacking had been lying to her all these years about school and medical school?
SOARES: Oh, I feel sorry for Mark. If -- I know Lori. She would not have put up with it. She would have just come like a bulldog. Lori was not one who sat around.
I mean, a lot of people I've heard on TV say she must have known. There is no way she couldn't have known. No. There was no way that Lori knew what was going on, because he would not have put up with it.
GRACE: Well, what would she have done? Would she have threatened to leave? Or would she had said, "Hey, you want to go to medical school? Fine, we'll get you through undergrad. We'll get you in medical school." Would she have thrown a big fit? Would she have thrown an ashtray?
What would she have done?
SOARES: No, I don't think she would have been violent, not in that way. But she would have really been upset with Mark, say, "Hey, you've got to get your act on the ball," and she would have supported him. She'd say, "Hey, Mark, if you're having problems, why didn't you come to me? Why didn't you tell me what was going on?"
SOARES: But she would have said, "Mark, we're going to get you -- this is something we both are striving for. This is our lives together. We're a couple. We're here for all time and eternity. We're going to get you through it."
And she would have nagged him, "Did you go to class?" Yes, she would have done that, but she would have supported him.
GRACE: And gotten him through?
SOARES: And gotten through it.
GRACE: Because obviously this was his dream. This was his big lie that we know of, anyway, that he was going to medical school, that he had majored in psychiatry.
So, you think she would have been angry, but would have supported him in trying to obtain that dream?
SOARES: Oh, yes. Without a doubt. She would have been very angry. I've been on the other end of that anger many times. But at the same token, I know that she would have -- that anything she could to make sure to help him accomplish it. Because it was their goal. It has been Mark's goal to go to med school since I've known him, and I've known him for 12 years.
GRACE: Paul, a question: In these hours, after Lori went missing -- of course, we know the truth now, she wasn't missing at all. But he's on TV appealing to the public to help fin her. He's talking about searching for her. He breaks down in tears.
How did he do it? And what did he say to you when you would speak to him on the phone while the search was going on?
SOARES: When I talked to him, during -- you know, during the early hours of this, I was real concerned about Mark. Because I knew -- at least I felt I knew, that at least that was my impression, as we now know later -- that he would have just been devastated with his Lori being missing.
And how he could tell these -- you know, go on TV and say, oh, what he said, and how he's concerned and looking for her -- you know, Nancy, I couldn't -- I couldn't do that. I don't have the ability -- I don't know very many people who do -- that have the ability to lie that way. I don't know how he did it.
GRACE: You are seeing shots of a newly released video. It's from a local convenience store. One shot is around 9:19 p.m., when Lori and Mark Hacking come in together.
Now, off camera, the clerk says he signify -- he signaled don't let her know about me smoking cigarettes. OK, that was off the camera. The clerk has revealed that.
Then later, around 1:18 a.m., just Mark Hacking came in without Lori. There you're seeing that. This is newly released video. And this is on the evening Lori went missing.
Have you seen that video, Paul?
SOARES: I have heard about the video, but I have not seen it.
GRACE: How are you feeling? What are your feelings towards Mark Hacking tonight? Did you ever see any sign of a mental disturbance with him?
SOARES: No. Not at all.
SOARES: Honestly, my feelings right now...
GRACE: What about this business about seizures? What is this business about possible seizures from falling from the roof of the house?
SOARES: You know, I really -- I don't know a lot about that. I know that he had medical problems after he fell from the roof. But as far as the extent of those medical problems, I really don't know, Nancy. I never really asked too much about it.
GRACE: Can you put words to how you feel tonight -- how you're feeling as all of this is unfolding?
SOARES: I'm just numb, Nancy. I feel like -- and I've said it before to other people, I'm on autopilot. I don't know what to feel anymore. All of this -- if -- all of this together is just too much.
My sister is dead. My brother-in-law, who I trusted, is now accused. And if he did do this and all these lies, everything else he's accused of -- this is too weird, Nancy. It's just too weird.
GRACE: Paul, what do you think is the appropriate punishment for Mark Hacking?
SOARES: To be honest with you, Nancy, I've tried not to think about that. I trust the people of the State of Utah to come up with the right judgment. I really don't want to think about it, because that's not my position to come to a call.
And whatever the state decides here on this earth is fine with me, because I know he will be judged at another trial. And he'll be judged for his actions, and there, all truth will come out.
GRACE: You're a very devout Mormon, are you not? SOARES: Yes, I am.
GRACE: And of course, leaping ahead to some possible jury trial, a possible conviction is really putting the cart before the horse. You're right. And numbness, I can see that.
Paul, thank you...
SOARES: It's too hard, Nancy. It's too hard...
GRACE: ... for being with us.
I wanted to just ask you one more thing that we talked about earlier. Lori Hacking has become just a name to a lot of people and a headline, just a number, just a statistic as another missing woman. Could you just share with us anything about Lori, the person, a vivid memory of her?
SOARES: Lori was anything but just another number or anything.
The one memory that I remember was just earlier this month -- or actually earlier in July. The four of us -- my wife, my mom, Mark and Lori -- went to a fireworks display in Utah. And I remember seeing my mom and me with Lori and walking together and how much she was concerned with my mom.
She was worried about her, worried about moving to North Carolina and being away from her. She talking to me. She pulled me aside and said, "Paul, we need to take care of mom. She's alone. She'll be alone. We need to make sure that we take care of her."
That was Lori. She cared about other people. She cared about their well being, how they felt. She would never do anything to hurt somebody.
That's what really hurts, is she would never do anything to in any way, shape or form offend anybody, hurt anybody. Anybody offended by her, and to have this happen to her, it is not right.
GRACE: Paul, she just seemed so beautiful on the outside and the inside.
SOARES: She was. She was.
GRACE: Paul, thank you for being with us, friend. Thank you very much.
SOARES: Thank you, Nancy. Thank you.
GRACE: This is LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace in for Larry tonight. And we will be taking your calls. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HACKING: Can I just make one plea? Everybody, anybody who can come, please come tomorrow morning. We're going to -- I don't think they're going let the volunteers up there tonight. But we're going to start at 6:30 tomorrow morning. And anybody who can possibly -- if you can make it, please come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us. As you know, about right now, the search has resumed for the remains of Lori Hacking. The 27-year-old mother-to-be in Salt Lake City. A lot of people referred to her as the Salt Lake City Laci.
With us reporter for KTVT XTV Heidi Hatch. She's there in Salt Lake City. Also with us: high profile defense attorney, Michael Cardoza; Court TV anchor, former prosecutor Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom; and psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.
Let's go first to Heidi Hatch. Heidi, as of tonight, what is the latest?
HEIDI HATCH, KTVT CORRESPONDENT: Just as Lori's brother said there are far more questions than answers. Like you said, they're starting their search and that could end tonight or even in a month. They have a lot to go through.
But something that has been important today that started last night, we found out that Mark Hacking has an alias. Whether or not that alias is something he's used with police before, we do not know at this time. But his family is saying that his alias, Jonathan Long, was actually something that the hospital gave him, a name that he could use while he was at the hospital so people did not know what his medical records were when he was there.
But there are a lot of questions surrounding that, because it just makes sense with how many lies he told that there could be some kind of double life that he used that name for. So a lot of questions again.
Also, there are reports that he had a box, a P.O. box that he received mail at the University of Utah where he worked.
GRACE: No, no, a secret PO box, the use of a cell phone, the missing wife. OK. What can you tell me about the search as of tonight?
HATCH: Well, the police should be starting their search right about now. They say that the dogs, the cadaver dogs won't be there until 9:00 tonight. They have been waiting a few days, because the dogs needed rest and they're not actually Salt Lake City's dogs or the county, they have to use them from the state so they have to wait on a waiting list when they're available.
But they'll be searching tonight. And there is so much to search. It could take a month to get through all of that garbage. And investigators have said before when you go out to the dump, or the landfill you see that a giant truck could be lost in a land fill and you would never find it.
So a lot of garbage just from that one day. I think they're going through about 500 tons a day. They have several thousand to go through and so there is a lot of work ahead for them.
And again, they work throughout the night. They usually start around 7:00. Cadaver dogs get there at 9:00 and they wrap up at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning.
And all of the officers that are down there are there because they're volunteering to be down there. It is not a fun job. It is a difficult job. They're there because they want closure for the family and they want to make sure that if Mark Hacking is responsible, that they have a solid case for prosecutors.
GRACE: Michael Cardoza, what do you think is the underlying story on the quote, "reliable citizen witness" that we are hearing came forward in a psychiatric unit? Could it possibly have been a psych patient?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well it probably was, Nancy. Before I get to that, my thoughts and my prayers certainly go out to both families in this situation. You know, it wouldn't surprise me if some information came to Mark -- from Mark Hacking to another patient and one of those patients stepped forward or even an orderly in the hospital.
Remember, Mark worked in a psychiatric ward before. So as I hear this, what I consider to be a made up insanity defense, I'll tell you, he knows exactly what he's doing. He knew right from wrong in this case. So if he's pursuing because he's a skilled liar and he thinks he can get away with it.
He probably told somebody something in that psychiatric ward and that person came forward. He may have even said it himself to one of his family members.
GRACE: Interesting. What is even more interesting, Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom, is that he, Mark Hacking, apparently told someone on July 24, this is in the height of the search, you got 4,000 people out there digging through a canyon, trying to find your wife and he told someone then that Lori was dead. Then later told someone in the psychiatric unit.
KIMBERLY GUILFOYLE NEWSOM, COURT TV ANCHOR: Right. I don't see how this helps him at all. I don't see him as being so brilliant and establishing a great psychiatric defense. I think if he tries to proffer one, if this case does eventually does go to try, which is looks like it will at this point, that I don't think is going to work for him.
There is so much other damming physical evidence that is starting to mount against him. And these statements that he's making, they're consistent so far with the evidence. But really important is the recovery of the body. Of course, they can proceed without it, but that will be crucial, especially if she was pregnant and they could determine it from the remains.
GRACE: Kimberly, legally speaking, if this goes to trial, the fact that police got a statement from him, even though was to a reliable informant, while he was in a psych unit, is there anyway the defense can use that to suppress the statement?
NEWSOM: Well, of course they're going to try. I don't anticipate that they're going to be successful, because there is plenty of case law that supports that means and method of obtaining confessions, admissions, statements from defendants. My prediction is it will come into court to be used against him.
GRACE: And Michael Cardoza, regarding the death penalty, what is the history there in Salt Lake City and what circumstances would be necessary to show aggravated murder?
CARDOZA: Well, Nancy, in Utah, the way it works is you have aggravated murder, then the next step down is murder. No first or second degree. Then the next step down from that is manslaughter. In order to come in with an aggravated murder, you to have a murder for gain, for personal gain or a heinous murder. And certainly, if Lori was pregnant at the time, this was a heinous murder.
Then, the district attorney has to decide if they're going to file a death penalty in this case, special circumstances.
The only way I see this case going to trial with all of the evidence that is mounting against Mark is if the D.A. asks for the death penalty and they won't back off that. Then, this case will go to trial.
And I agree with Kimberly, that statement will come in and Mark Hacking will be convicted. Whether he will get the death penalty or not certainly will be up to the jurors.
GRACE: Michael Cardoza, you're dead on the money. I took a long look at that aggravated murder statute in Utah -- B, as in brother; P, as in Peter. Double murder or mass murder or heinous manner of murder, which leads me to his own admitted, so we've been told, method of operation.
Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychologically speaking, to kill someone in their sleep -- well, there goes the voluntary manslaughter, heat of passion, argument defense.
To kill in someone's sleep -- what does that mean?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: He was punishing her. If this in fact happened and he killed her in her sleep, he was basically making a statement, "You're not backing me. You're going to expose me. That's not your job as a wife. You're supposed to support me, my dreams."
And once she made it clear that she wasn't going to do that and expose him, he absolutely could not have that. The lie was way more important to him than reality. And he was not willing to give it up. And I think that's what happened.
GRACE: But why in someone's sleep?
LUDWIG: It's easier. I mean, he really -- he did so much to ensure that everybody believed this lie that the lie almost was his form of an anti-psychotic, anti-depressant. He really needed this lie to function.
GRACE: Well, is it me, or am I just crazy, the thought of murdering someone in their sleep is just -- I've never actually even considered murder in somebody's sleep. That's got to psychologically mean something.
LUDWIG: Well, you know, it is very interesting. When you think about the similarities between lying and being a criminal, it's really taking the path of least resistance and not being able to deal with the realities of life. That's the path of least resistance.
GRACE: Kimberly Guilfoyle...
GUILFOYLE NEWSOM: ... disassociate himself, as well. Because this is someone, obviously, he had love and connection for in his own twisted way with all the lies that he told. But killing her while she's asleep, maybe he could disassociate in his mind as if he didn't do it, as if he is not the one responsible.
GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, this video of him coming in and out of the 7-11. How will that be used at trial?
GUILFOYLE NEWSOM: I think it's great to establish the chronology. And that's why they're already able to make some determinations as to time of death. And putting that together with the physical evidence, that's going to be very important at trial, because the video speaks for itself -- and exactly where he was, what he did after.
And he appears to be looking at his hands in the second video after the murder has alleged to have occurred, which is also very telling, because this was, apparently by what we know now of the evidence, perhaps some very bloody crime scene.
GRACE: Of course, somehow it doesn't seem right to be talking about this piece of video as evidence, because it's actually most likely the last photos of seeing Lori Hacking alive.
This is LARRY KING LIVE. We are taking your calls. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID YOCOM, SALT LAKE CITY COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: What the statement says is that you are fined (ph) personally interviewed a reliable citizen witness who spoke to Mark Hacking on July 24th, 2004, at the University of Utah Medical Center psychiatric unit. Mark Hacking told this reliable citizen witness that he killed Lori while she was asleep in bed and disposed of her body in a Dumpster. (END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace, in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us.
We're switching gears and heading to Redwood City in the latest in the Scott Peterson double murder trial. Today was a real watermark of sorts. Witness 100 took the stand in the prosecution's case.
With us tonight, CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. He's been in the courtroom today. Defense Attorney Michael Cardoza also in the courtroom. Former Prosecutor Chuck Smith out of the courtroom. Richard Cole, covering the case for "The Daily News" group, also straight out of the courtroom. And still with us here in New York, psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.
Let's go straight to Ted Rowlands. Ted, what happened today?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, today, the prosecution spent the bulk of the hearing -- or the testimony today was centered on the individual that analyzed the five hard disks that Scott Peterson had in his five separate computers.
And basically today, the prosecution was able to establish that starting on December 7th, 2002, Peterson started to research the San Francisco Bay and other waterways and purchasing a boat. It's significant, because on December 6th, that's the day he told Shawn Sibley, the woman that introduced him to Amber Frey, that he had, quote, "lost his wife." That is what the prosecution tried to get across.
The defense got a couple of good points in, however, today. One, that he didn't really spend any significant time on any one Internet site, that the prosecution tried to highlight during testimony today. The other thing is, is that he checked his e-mail on December 24th in the morning. If he would have killed his wife overnight, to check his e-mail, very cold. Whether the jury picked that up or not at this juncture remains to be seen. But you can bet Geragos will highlight it later.
There was also a witness out of order today -- Greg Reed, he's a friend of the Petersons. And this was the first time that we saw Scott Peterson shed tears. He actually cried in court today when his friend got up on the stand and started talking about conversations that he had had with Scott Peterson before Laci went missing -- specifically about Conner Peterson and some clothing that Scott and he -- they were looking through a catalog and they were talking about buying their children some hunting clothing when they got to be of age.
Scott Peterson actually started crying during that testimony; the first time that we have seen him actually shed tears during all of this trial. GRACE: Michael Cardoza, I've been doing a little computer research myself. And for him to have gone all the way to Berkeley Marina, he would have had to pass Lake Don Pedro, Lake McClure, Lake Tulloch, it's a lake right there in Modesto. All of these are within 45 minutes' drive.
Got an explanation?
CARDOZA: Do I have an explanation for that? He likes San Francisco Bay...
GRACE: Just make a stab at it.
CARDOZA: He likes San Francisco Bay an awful lot. He wanted to see if the boat was seaworthy. That begs for an answer. That's one of the reasons maybe they're going to have to put Scott on. I doubt if they will. That will be one of the questions the jurors ask. If he wanted to see if it was seaworthy, why didn't he just dump it in a nearby lake? I don't know the answer to that.
GRACE: You know, Michael, my question is Mark Geragos has stated over and over to the jury that he has owned boats before. Don't you have to register for that? Is there any indication that Scott Peterson is a registered boat owner in the past?
CARDOZA: Remember, he just bought that boat. I think it was on December 14th.
GRACE: In the past. In the past.
CARDOZA: In the past? No, I don't know whether -- do you have to be a registered boat owner? I would assume you have to register boats. Don't know; that hasn't come out into evidence. So, don't know the answer to that.
So know this was a new boat. Do know that his story is he wants to see if it's seaworthy.
GRACE: And very quickly, speaking of boats, Michael Cardoza, again, Mark Geragos has portrayed him as an avid fisherman. And I'm just wondering, has it come out in court how often Peterson -- Scott Peterson had been fishing -- for instance, since he married Laci? Does he go every weekend? Once a month?
CARDOZA: He certainly went at least once a month from the testimony. Geragos does use that -- he's an avid fisherman. That came back, and I'm maybe being a little facetious, it came back to bite him, because here's Peterson up there fishing with the wrong fishing equipment, the wrong lures, going for sturgeon.
So, question is: If he was such an avid fisherman, why didn't he bring the right lures? Why didn't he bring the right poles?
GRACE: Or open up the lures? At least open up the lures. Even if they're the wrong lures. CARDOZA: Remember, Nancy, what his story is, apparently he truly is sticking to it, I'm putting that boat in the water just to see if it is sea worthy, not to go out and really catch fish.
GRACE: Just to get the toy in the water, I know. But passing all those lakes is not going to help.
Very quickly to Chuck Smith, we're leaving out something very big that went down in the courtroom, Scott Peterson ordering porn. Now, listen, there is no law against porn. But what does it mean to you that while he's supposed to be out with all the other volunteers searching for his wife, he decides Playboy won't do it and orders TEN and Ecstasy, 24/7.
This isn't just ordering a nasty movie; this is nasty channel, 24 hours a day. And then canceling it while the cops are there performing a search.
SMITH: I think this is powerful evidence for the prosecution. It shows that Scott Peterson shortly after his wife disappeared, while everyone is looking for him, he's more concerned about his own self pleasure. It just really shows a depth of depravity regarding his character, which is significant.
I mean, I saw some of the jurors, female jurors, you know, gasp almost when that he heard these things. And I think, it could be if handled properly by the prosecution strong evidence.
GRACE: But Chuck -- Chuck.
GRACE: If that were a crime, half the men in America would be in the clink right now if they looked at porn before for Pete's sake.
SMITH: That's not the point. That's not the point, though, Nancy.
GRACE: But the fact is, everybody else is out searching for his wife.
SMITH: Well, that's right. By itself, it is not much. But when you add it to all the other suspicious circumstances in this case, all the other things that he did, you know, it's consistent with a picture of guilt. A selfish, self-centered man who didn't think much of his wife, didn't have much respect for women, as Dr. Ludwig will tell you, pornography exhibits, my six sisters taught me that, as well, but that's just the point.
This is consistent with all the other evidence, the overwhelming evidence that Scott Peterson didn't think much of his wife, and was certainly capable of killing her.
GRACE: Well, when we come back, we'll give defense attorney Michael Cardoza a crack at that. We'll also hear from "The Daily News" group Richard Cole, and of course, Dr. Robi Ludwig and we'll be taking your calls. Stay with us.
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry King tonight. Thank you for being with us. We are taking your calls.
Let me go to Richard Cole from "The Daily News" group.
What about what was found on his Internet?
RICHARD COLE, "DAILY NEWS": There were some interesting things there, I think for both sides. First, one thing I want to mention about the pornography issue, let's remember there were other people in that house at that time that that pornography was ordered. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see...
COLE: The Peterson family were there, friends were there, people...
GRACE: I don't think Jackie Peterson was ordering TEN/Ecstasy. OK, I'll take up for her on that.
COLE: I don't think she was. I'm not sure if Lee or one of the brothers might sheepishly get on the stand and say, I'm the one who ordered that.
GRACE: Why was it that, Scott Peterson is the one that called and cancel it while cops were there searching and said he was leaving the country, ouch?
COLE: That's a different issue. I think Scott by February 18th after -- that was the second search of the house, I think at that point he pretty much decided to close up shop. As you know, he wound up down in San Diego with his family.
I think he was fed up, disgusted whether he was guilty or not guilty, his house was being raided, his house had broken into, he had people outside every day, yelling at him with megaphones. I think, pretty much, that was probably the final straw. And said that's it, I'm closing up shop and I'm moving down to San Diego.
As far as the Internet stuff what the prosecution is seeking to do, and I believe Ted mentioned this and also Mike, is they're trying to show that on December 6, of 2002, Shawn Sibley confronted Scott about suspicions that he was married, which he lied about and said he wasn't.
And that on the very next day he began looking for a boat, he began looking for -- charts of the bay, that showed the depths and currents and all of that.
GRACE: So, it's part of a timeline. COLE: It was part of the timeline. And it certainly is interesting that it happened the day after this confrontation. One of the problems the prosecution had, however, is he spent very little time looking at charts of the bay.
He spent most of his time on fishing sites, looking at the kinds of fish available in the bay, looking at what the regulations were for how much you could catch in the bay and that was by far the majority of the time that he was on the Internet. So it cuts both I was.
GRACE: I see mark Geragos taking that and running with it and making a lot of it. Dr. Robi Ludwig, on the porn, there's a big difference between, for instance some soft core porn, like Playboy or whatever comes on late at night on these pay-per-view movies, as opposed to hard core porn. That's what we are understanding and it wasn't just one movie, it was a feed.
GRACE: Now, I didn't know somebody else could come in your house and order porn on your bill. But, hey, Geragos will find a way. That's possible to prove that.
LUDWIG: I wasn't aware of that either.
GRACE: What does any of this mean?
LUDWIG: Well, it is interesting also the timeline when he did it. It was after Laci's disappearance. And the first impression I got was how's beautiful vs. animal house. This is a guy who really wanted to do whatever he wanted to do, watch porn, date, live a single life, and Laci was all about Martha Stewart, house, home, family.
You could see him thinking that Laci would say no to everything he wanted to do, and perhaps at one point he just got sick of it. So, again, it underscores the egocentricity, the narcissism, it is all about me.
GRACE: We are taking your calls.
Let's go out to New Orleans. New Orleans, you're on LARRY KING LIVE.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy. I think you're great, and I love your show on Court TV.
GRACE: Thank you.
CALLER: My question is, how critical do you think Amber Frey's testimony is going to be next week?
GRACE: That's a big one. What about it, Michael?
CARDOZA: I tell you what, that's their hail Mary pass in this case. I disagree with Jeff. There are not mounds and mounds of evidence so far in this case. I'm not saying Scott Peterson is innocent. I am saying the D.A.s haven't proved him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt yet. They're behind in this case.
GRACE: So, bottom line, hail Mary pass.
CARDOZA: Amber Frey, could save this case for them. She's important.
GRACE: Lets go to Lewis Center, Ohio. Lewis Center, you're on LARRY KING LIVE.
I think Lewis Center is on LARRY KING LIVE.
CALLER: Hi, Nancy, I think you're wonderful.
CALLER: And I want to know at what point the prosecution will bring up all the things he had in his car on the day that they arrested him?
GRACE: You know, I think they're going in chronological order and that would come after Frey's testimony. I could be wrong about it. What about it, Chuck Smith?
SMITH: Well, I think that's right. That's towards the end of the chronology in terms of the events that occurred in this case. So I think that the D.A., wanting to go from point A to point B, will put on that evidence towards the end of the case.
GRACE: I agree with you.
SMITH: Yes. I believe they think it is significant.
GRACE: Very quickly...
SMITH: ...a good way to end the case.
GRACE: Yes,. Very quickly -- yes right, with the bombshell. Ted Rowlands what you to expect tomorrow?
ROWLANDS: We'll we're going to have more of the same in terms of this computer forensics expert. He'll be back on the stand for continued cross and then redirect for a while. And then the jury has been told there is a chance that they could go home early.
What we do expect next week at some point is that Amber Frey will be in Redwood City and all of this speculation will be over and we'll finally see what she brings to the table as far as the prosecution's case.
GRACE: Yes. Because all of those transcripts, Ted, have still yet to be released. People have not read the content of those transcripts. We'll be right back with our remaining moments. Stay with us.
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace in for Larry tonight. I want to thank you for being with us.
Very quickly, back out to Michael Cardoza. In the nutshell, the state got a reprimand today. Why?
CARDOZA: It wasn't today, Nancy. It was yesterday.
GRACE: Thank you.
CARDOZA: What happened was, witness was on the stand, witness was talking about photographs that she helped Scott pick out to put on the missing poster for Laci way back when. On cross examination, Pat Harris, one of the defense attorneys, asked her when is the latest time she looked at photographs. She said last night. Didn't turn that over.
D.A. didn't tell the prosecution -- didn't tell the defense that. Judge Delucchi came unglued right in front of the jury, excused them, reprimanded the D.A., brought the jury back in. Told the jury to disregard that witness's testimony. He was striking all her testimony and told them the reason why it was because the D.A.'s didn't turn certain evidence over to the defense.
GRACE: Got you. another discovery problem. But Chuck Smith as it goes the evidence itself, what was the issue regarding the photos?
SMITH: Well, you know, the evidence itself was not that significant. Whether she had been shown these photos or not. These are the photos that Scott Peterson was nonchalantly looking at in terms of which ones should be used on the wanted posters. But Michael's right in terms of, you know it hurts the prosecution's credibility.
GRACE: Well, Chuck, the photos, I'm talking about the photos. Reports are that Peterson picked out photos for the missing person flyers of Laci in a swimsuit.
SMITH: That's right. But this is has all stricken, Nancy. So, it is no longer evidence even though the jury's heard it.
GRACE: But the jury has heard it. They have heard it.
SMITH: But there is more striking -- what is more striking is that the judge told the jury, the prosecution is not playing fair. In essence, saying to them, you can't trust these folks.
CARDOZA: Absolutely agree with Chuck.
GRACE: But to you, Robi Ludwig, they're right. This is a black high for the prosecution to get reprimanded, really in front of the jury. They're told to disregard the evidence. But picking out from a missing person flyer your wife in a bikini or holding a glass with a group of friends.
LUDWIG: Yes, it shows a lack of seriousness.
SMITH: That all got lost. GRACE: Right.
SMITH: That all got lost, Nancy.
LUDWIG: But psychologically, it still indicates, whether it all got lost or not, that he wasn't taking it seriously. He doesn't seem to be a person who is grieving over a lost wife and lost child. This is not the way a grieving man acts.
GRACE: Well, it all begins tomorrow in the court of law in Redwood City. We'll let the jury hash it out. Thank you to Ted Rowlands, Michael Cardoza, Chuck Smith, Richard Cole and Dr. Robi Ludwig.
But most of all, thank you to you, for being with us tonight here on LARRY KING LIVE. Larry is back tomorrow night with Jack Hannah and all of his animals.
I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV signing off for tonight. Again, thank you for letting us into your homes. Stay tuned for Aaron Brown's "NEWSNIGHT."
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